202 - How to Price your Facilitation and Coaching Services? with Jenny Millar

Does pricing make you prickle with anxiety? Imagine what it would be like to feel confident and calm about valuing your services… and now meet Jenny Millar, who can make that imagination a reality.

Learn all about positioning, discounting, strategy, and communication in the context of pricing in this standout episode

Jenny’s expertise in pricing will be invaluable to any facilitator or coach, as service businesses are notoriously difficult to price. And, as the founder of Untapped Pricing—a highly regarded pricing strategy consultancy—her advice is certainly of the highest value.

Enjoy a free taster of her expertise in this episode!

Find out about:

• Strategies for pricing coaching and facilitation services
• The relationship between pricing, and positioning and how to get confident with both
• Jenny’s three rules for discounting and how to discount without devaluing yourself
• What communication has to do with pricing and why it can make or break your choice
• The three facets to consider to determine what your services are ‘worth’
• How tiered, rather than bespoke or binary, pricing makes life easier for you and your prospects

Don’t miss the next episode: subscribe to the show with your favourite podcast player.

Links

Watch the video recording of this episode on YouTube.

Bitesize pricing tactics - a collection of 2min videos.

Downloadable PDF guides - to take you through the fundamentals of pricing strategy that works for your customers and for you.

Untapped’s Pricing Scorecard - our free tool to evaluate the health of your pricing in minutes. Learn how to improve it with a personalised 22-page report.

Connect to Jenny:

On LinkedIn

Book a call with Jenny

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:03

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hattness, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show, it's Jenny Miller, and we speak about pricing, how to price facilitation and coaching services. And we also speak about the workshop around pricing. How does Jenny get her clients to find the right price? So stay tuned. And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, scroll down to the show notes to download my free one page somewhere. And now lean back and be inspired. Hello, Jenny.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I am very excited about the conversation because we met in a different context, and I learned that you're a pricing expert. And there's this huge taboo around facilitators to talk about money and pricing. And it's something that almost everyone struggles with. So here I am with the expert in the field. And still, I still ask the same question every time to open. So we'll start with that. Do you call yourself a facilitator?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Great. So firstly, facilitators are not alone in finding pricing hard. So I will try to share as many practical tips as we go today to sort of ease that uh pricing journey for everybody. I do call myself a facilitator, and I have learnt by bringing brilliant facilitators into my business. And so I've learned really by observing them and kind of picking up their tactics and working in partnership with them. So now I do also facilitate. My business is focused on pricing. So we live and breathe how to price. It's a consultancy. So we help organizations with all aspects of their pricing, whether that's setting fees for new products and services, changing fees for existing products and services, communicating price changes. And we also think about how prices are framed in the purchase journey for your customer. So we believe that how customers are shared and when is often as important as the numbers themselves. So you'll find that in scale-ups or larger organizations, there are so many opinions about pricing. And you'll be dealing with lots of senior execs who all have a different vantage point, they've all got different needles that they need to move, and pricing can play a very different role for them. And so the magic of facilitation comes into play there by helping and guiding an executive team through their pricing decisions and like extracting all of the relevant inputs and views and existing knowledge, helping a team to really surface what they already know, what they think they know, and what they'd like to know. And then we bring that together with building new evidence that's going to directly inform their pricing decisions and remove some of that guesswork through various kinds of research. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Thank you for also sharing how facilitation kind of fuels into your work. And I can definitely see the value because it's also about disentangling what about the pricing conceptions are emotional and what are actually factual. And I can imagine that for a product it's quite easy issue because you have very clear costs and expenses that you have to take into consideration. For consulting services, facilitation services, coaching services, it's much more an emotional business, as it seems, where pricing is difficult to anchor. So maybe we can start with uh one question. I'm really curious. What is the biggest misconception that is around pricing?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Biggest misconception, I think, is that pricing's hard or that it's out of reach for organizations of any size or freelancers. I think it's uh a process. So so you're right that in facilitation or coaching or creative industries, the outcome for the customer can feel less tangible, right? So it's perhaps not directly measurable. And so the value you're delivering is therefore in the eye of the beholder. And so it can feel very hard to price accordingly, right? And to know where am I? What is the my prospective client thinking in terms of a suitable price and and what I'm worth? You're you're smiling. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Because you you said a few words and we're like, yes, I want to dive deeper. Can I please zoom into that? Can I double click on that? One is worth. Yes. How do I know what I'm worth? And there I hear many of the coaches saying, Oh, charge what you're worth. Is this just buzz or is there something to that?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

It sounds very empowering, doesn't it? But uh, I think for many it's fairly useless because it doesn't give any clues about how to how to do that. So let's talk about how to evalue your the value that you're providing so that you can then consider that in how you price. So the answer, fortunately, isn't rocket science, and it really includes getting closer to your customers or your prospects and really understanding what they're looking to do and what they're looking to achieve. So, willingness to pay isn't an inherent property of a product or a service that you're delivering, it's very subjective and very contextual. So if I said, what's a pint of beer worth? then the only correct answer really is to whom? Because to wine lovers, the answer might be nothing. But then to beer drinkers, it still depends on the context, right? So you might be willing to pay a lot more for a cold beer on a hot day from the only beer standard to festival, whereas you'd be willing to pay an awful lot less for the same beer from a rundown grocery store. So warm in the morning. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So what something is worth is going to be very different to your different prospective clients, and you need to get closer to what they're looking to achieve. So think through the like the tangible benefits. So are there measurable things that they're looking to drive? Whether that's more unlocking more sales or uh saving time, for example, but then the intangible benefits too. So are there social or emotional benefits? Are you just relieving a blockage that's been there and frustrating everyone for a while? Are you going to make them look good? Is there a brand benefit somehow? And then the third thing is they're getting closer to their alternatives. So if they don't work with you, what are their alternatives? So that might be turning to another facilitator or another coach. So your competitors, if you like. But which ones are they? Because which ones that your prospective customer might turn to might be very different to the ones you think of as competitors. But also there's the do nothing or do-it-the-self or some kind of clunky workaround. And I think only then, when you have an understanding of tangible benefits, intangible benefits, and their alternatives, can you really start to grasp what this means to the customer? Yeah. Um, and and the best way to do that really is to you know to talk to your customers or prospects. And there's a wonderful book called, I'm just reaching for it now, called The Mum Test by Ross. Oh, yes, I love that. Yeah, which I think is really great. It's very short, very easy to read. It's all about the art of asking questions in a way that your mum can't lie to you. And I find these are brilliant for getting comfortable with asking questions to do with value and to do with price. So take a look at the book.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Very good one. And it's so everyone can relate to that because if we're telling our mom about our next business idea, she'll say, Yes, of course, it's brilliant, you're gonna be rich. Exactly. Exactly. Who would not pay for that? But then, yeah. How to ask her different questions. Very good um book tip. And what I hear is so there's a lot about the pre-work and then also how to communicate it, because then you you come to the the price, and would you then communicate all the layers?

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

So let's let's talk a bit more about coming to the price because we talked a bit about that customer perspective, if you like. So you're getting an understanding of what it means to them, and I think that'll mean it'll mean different things to different people often. So try to incorporate questions in your sales conversations that really get to the heart of what they're trying to do and unlock. And you'll you'll pick up when it's a very kind of strategic, meaningful outcome or when it's not. And that'll give you those early clues about when you know you've got some headroom potentially with your with your price, but then also think about from your perspective. So, from the facilitator's perspective, I think there's lots to consider as well. So, where are you at in your business? And do some simple maths. So, let's say you're fairly new to facilitation and you're looking, you know how much you want to earn, right? So you've got a good understanding of how much you want to earn to cover the bills, get that lovely holiday in, do whatever it is you want to do. And you've also got an idea of how much billable time that you want to fill as well. So there is an easy calculation there to perhaps get uh an initial minimum or a guide price. An anchor. An anchor, exactly. But then I think it also depends on your situation. So if you are just starting out and it's really important to you to collect those client logos, extend your experience, then maybe it's not time to be particularly aggressive with your price. Alternatively, if you're so busy, you're rushed off your feet, actually, it's probably time to start considerably raising your prices, right? And if volume drops a little bit as a result, then you're probably still earning more but doing less. So I think there's that bringing together of what you need pricing to do for you. And it's such a key lever in your business, right? Because whether you're an independent facilitator or a large corporate or anything in between, like your how you price is inextricably linked with your brand and your positioning and your product and services and and all those kind of decisions, it's it's got to pull in the same direction as all of those other things.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Although it might be just a buzz sentence by coaches. And I think it also signals something to the client. So what I heard you explaining is to really focus on what pain are we solving, releasing for the client, what is the value, what is maybe the cost of not having the workshop or not hiring us? And the better we understand that, the more we understand how much we can actually charge. But then also it's about what is the impact of us charging maybe too much or too little?

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Because I think we're sending a signal that yeah, when we're charging a lot, the signal is, oh, we are very busy. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yes, we are very well trained. Absolutely. So um I I think in you talked about that emotional tie to pricing. So you're you're right. And and I encourage each facilitator to think about what that make you smile price is, right? No one likes being squeezed on price because then you enter into the relationship with a sort of a reluctancy and it doesn't feel good, right? So, what is your feel great price? And when someone is feeling like they're paid what they're worth, what I I hope you know what that feels like because it you know that really brings the best out in you. So think about what that is. Also think about what your walk away point is. For any kind of pricing or negotiation conversation, what is that walk-away point? Because if you are willing to move on price, then knowing that in advance again puts you on the front foot to have those kinds of discussions. And then you were talking about almost the relationship between your price and your reputation. So are you worryingly cheap or are you reassuringly expensive or somewhere in the middle? And I think that's yeah, again, something that needs to fit with how you're positioning your services and to whom. So are you building a brand that you are a really, I don't know, elite facilitator for this very specific audience, and so your price needs to fit with that persona that you're that you're putting out there, or something else. You're accessibly priced, but and perhaps you ease off on the scope a little bit to make that price accessible for more audiences.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Somehow I just thought of the image of a boutique, and usually what we see is that the fewer items there are in a boutique, the higher the price. Yeah. And is it the same for these kind of services that the more I found my niche, the more I am specialized in one specific thing, the higher usually is my price?

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah. So I think um so so one thing that's definitely springs to mind in you saying that is to avoid a long shopping list of prices. So I've seen too often where wonderful facilitators or businesses have this sort of itemized list of all the components of what they do, and expecting their prospective customer to then know what they want from it and um kind of pick and do lots of maths and figure it out themselves. And I think that can be quite off-putting. But my strong recommendation is that you always offer your prospective customers options to choose from at different price points, and three is a really magic number there. So if you can conceive of three different either bundles of different elements of your service, so you've got a uh you see this everywhere because it works so well, right? Think about a small, medium, large in a coffee shop or bronze, silver, gold on a subscription tier. The same goes for professional services. Like, what is that? Or if you throw in all the bells and whistles, what is your gold offering? Take some stuff out. What does silver look like? And then what does bronze look like? It's such an effective technique because it's very empowering to your customer. Everybody likes having a choice, right? And it shifts them from a mindset, a binary mindset of, oh, should I buy this or not? So oh, which shall I buy? Yeah. And getting them to really think about what they care about and what they value. And I think if you you have bundled together different aspects of a service, then that also puts you in the position of expert, right? Because you are recommending for uh you, prospective customer, in your situation. I recommend these different packages are going to get you where you need to get to to different degrees, but it also lets you um anchor the prospect's perception of your prices if you can price up that gold option considerably. Right. So, what's the best way to sell a 2,000-pound watch? You put it right next to a 10,000 pound watch. And it's the that common cognitive bias of of anchoring where we lean too heavily on available comparisons when we comprehend or evaluate a number. And so next to the 10,000 pound watch, the 2,000 pound watch seems like a bargain. Whereas if it was next to a 50 pound watch, it would seem very premium. Yeah. And so for if you're laying out your facilitation services and there are some options to choose from, then that gold option needs to be very expensive compared to the others. And some will go for it because they want everything you can offer. But even for those who pick bronze or silver, it's played an anchoring role in how they perceive those lower prices. And your final thought on it is that it then also puts you on the front foot for any negotiations that follow because you've already laid out how scope and changes for price to change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

And if they then ask for something extra or to remove something, you know exactly in which range you're navigating. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah. And it's it's a good one for anyone out there who isn't sure what their customers are willing to pay and doesn't really feel like they have a good handle on what it's worth to the customer, then you're by laying out three options at different price points, you're therefore appealing to different budgets and different needs in one go. And you facilitate it for the client, not expecting them to do the both.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah, exactly. And I wonder, so when I hear more options, I wonder to if you have some experience with reducing options and increasing the price. So where I'm coming from is there are customers that are short in money and others are short in time. And usually those who are short in time, they have more money to spend and they would actually be happy to spend. And less time in the offerings we have. And it seems to me like very often we run into the trap to just add more and more and more. Oh, you get a full-day workshop and you get two hours coaching sessions and you get 50 hours of my online training. Whereas it might be more valuable for them to have the 50 hours training actually curated in 90 minutes. Here is what you need to know. And okay, I do a 20 minutes power coaching over coffee. What is your experience with charging more for a more curated or shorter service?

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Great. So I think so you talked about two different audiences there, some that prize time and some that prize price, right? Um money. So yes. And so I think I would definitely encourage you to your options need to be different for those different audiences, and to make sure that each of the three options, say, are highly relevant, but it's the framing that's then really crucial. So almost the little statement that might go with that gold option for the team that are so squeezed for time needs to reflect that actually we do the hard yards so that when we come together for these very short bursts, like everything's done, and these get you from A to B with as minimum input from you as possible. And so I think it's all about the framing. And just because you have less FaceTime doesn't mean that there's less value to the customer, as you're suggesting, it's probably more for that time-strapped executive or whoever it is. And thank you.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Now it makes sense. So if I understand you correctly, it would the same strategy as with the different price points, would be then with a different time point. So if I try to sell something very short for a very high price, people might think, oh, what's that? But if I put it next to something that is considerably cheaper but takes longer, then they see the difference and hence they understand the value. Exactly. Exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

To provide anchors.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah. I've got another thought for you just on designing relevant options. And obviously, I'm assuming here that you're not publishing your prices online, for example, where they need to be same price and same service for everybody. So just need to tackle it slightly differently if things are public. But just if they're not, so you're writing a uh proposal each time, or it's just yeah, behind closed doors, then if you're struggling to design three choices, yeah, that it could be differentiating by the components, so what ingredients you put together to make the three different cakes, or you just made a great example there of like time. So how quickly does this happen and get done? But it could be other things too. So it could be even if the service is the same, it could be about length of commitment, or it could be about payment terms or something else. So it doesn't, yeah. Some some find it hard to kind of tease out three different options, but actually think as creatively as you like about what dimension you're you're differentiating on.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah. Or synchronous support, coaching support, guidance, yeah, yes, follow-up, follow-up sessions.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Absolutely. Yeah. Service level too, in a way. So how accessible are you during that period of engagement? Uh, and in what format? And are there face-to-face elements or not? Is it all remote or not? Although that does, I saw a lot of like facilitators and coaches and professional services during the start of the pandemic just dropping their fees because suddenly they were operating remotely rather than in person. And that just, yeah, that broke my heart because when you actually get to the bottom of, well, are the outcomes any less, or you know, the value of what you're delivering hasn't changed. So you've unnecessarily dropped your fees. And I I don't think, particularly at that time, customers care about your travel costs not being in there, or they they don't care about the those things. They care about the outcomes and the way you're getting them to.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Yes, what a wonderful example. It broke my heart too. And it was actually interesting to observe also how it changed over the years throughout the pandemic. And I think at the beginning, why the fees dropped was also because the clients asked it, because they didn't see the value first in online facilitation, that it was just, oh, then you can do it, it doesn't cost you. And it was as if it wasn't the same. Yeah. Um, and only later they realized that it actually asked for even more preparation, that it's more complex, um, that we have to be more rigorous on the agenda. And um, I carried out a pricing survey, I think it was mid-2020. And it was very interesting because there was still quite a big difference between online and offline. And usually offline would be considerably more expensive than online facilitation. And over the two and a half years, this gap has almost closed.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yes, great.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Which is uh yeah, which is a good thing, I guess. Yeah, I think it's a good thing. Yeah, because as you say, it's the value that we are selling and not the format.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yes, exactly. And at the time, you know, the toolkit needed to change and the techniques needed to kind of step forward into the online only domain. And uh, there was a lot of hard work that is sits behind that um to make it so effective online.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

And then again, I think um over the pandemic also the clients realized how big the pain actually is. Yes, and that they do need professional facilitators. So the willingness to pay increased. Yes, luckily. And I would be curious about you just said that you assume that most of the facilitation services, the prices would be not displayed on the website. So why is that? What holds us back from displaying our prices? And is it actually a good thing, or do you have some recommendations to give guidance?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah. So again, I think it comes back to your customers to some degree. So if they are shopping around and others that they are also looking at publish their pricing, then if you haven't published your pricing online, then it might be off-putting. So it's it's easier to go with someone where it's all there than picking up the phone to you. But then also, if you publish your prices online, I think it can detach from having the conversation that is so important to closing a sale often. So it also depends on how you like to nurture your leads and how much contact you want with them, but it would also remove your ability to price for different clients differently, which could be really important. And I think that's important to acknowledge is that it's okay to price different clients differently. So a common example might be you might be comfortable charging one rate for private sector, another for public sector or charity work. And so in your portfolio of clients, yes, there's some kind of the the private sector clients are helping bump up your margins, but that's okay. But it also depends on yeah, what it means to one client A versus client B. So you can you can react to that accordingly. Yes, and what does it mean in terms of discounts then? In terms of discounts, okay. So I have two recommendations when it comes to discounts. So the first is in fact, let's go for three. So firstly, don't ever offer a discount for no reason. So if you in hiring professional services myself, kind of when it comes to that pricing conversation, so often it's been like, oh, my rate is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's the first time we've worked together, so I'm happy to take off 20%. And I'm like, whoa, I just, you know, I didn't, you didn't give me a moment to react, and you've just shaved off 20% to your price for absolutely no reason. So so please don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

What's your reaction?

SPEAKER_00 31:48

So, what is going through your mind when you hear that? That this person isn't confident in their own pricing and that they're open to negotiation. So if they've told me off the bat there's 20% room for maneuver, I can probably get a lot more if I need to. I mean, personally, my response because I'm a pricing consultant is to say, don't do that. I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that. Second tip is if the prospective client is asking for a discount, then please find a way to adjust the scope to accompany that drop in price. So again, going back to the idea of sharing three different options at three different price points, that helps you facilitate that conversation about what needs to come out for this to still work for them, but just you're doing less. Otherwise, if you're just offering a straight discount on the original scope, then you're you're devaluing it. And then the third thing is rather than if it's not possible to change the scope, what other quid pro quo could you ask for in exchange for that discount? So something else that works for you. So it might be that they pay in full upfront to help with your cash flow or what else?

SPEAKER_01 33:20

They commit to a certain amount or a number of workshops.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, exactly. They have longer commitment periods. I generally find asking for kind of testimonials or recommendations is not actually not a good thing to ask for because happy clients do that for you anyway. So that's uh yeah. True.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

And it also again, what do they think about me when before even starting the job, you get a discount in exchange for a testimonial?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, exactly. You're buying the testimony, yeah, exactly that. Or it could be uh say it's you're starting to work with quite a large organization. Is it that they have that they're happy to conduct or set up five intro conversations with five other departments for you? Or again, so what what is it? Think about what it is that could work for you, yeah, because there are many currencies beyond price that actually could be yeah, beneficial. Or oh, another one could be that you schedule the work in your quiet period, for example.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Good one. So to work on the timing then of the delivery, yeah. And the the internal referral made me think of something else. Sometimes when we work with large corporates and we set for price, then this is the price. And then it's very difficult to increase the price over time for working with a different team in the same organization. You cannot suddenly charge more. Yeah, there's a precedent then. Exactly. So I always thought that it might make sense to charge a little bit more, so to have a higher price, but then to find ways to give them a discount in order to keep this the opportunity alive. Or how do you see other ways to deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

So with a with a corporate organization, with the future pricing, you mean? Having future flexibility. Yeah, so I think it helps when in future you're not comparing apples to apples. So perhaps that when you're working with the second department or another piece of work with the first department, that somehow it's not directly comparable to what you did last time. But then also I think that corporate memory is often shorter than you think it is as well. So maybe you, the decision makers are different people in the organization the second time round. So don't just even if even if it is the same people, don't assume that they have that memory. And I think if you're looking to raise your prices next time round, you can do so with with confidence if you're able to, I guess, narrate any challenges that uh or handle any challenges that come back to you. So again, like if you get pushback on price in that situation, well, you were price X last time, this looks kind of similar. It's price Y now, why is that? Revert back to what you've learned about what it means to them and which needles they need to move, who is in, you know, and that's often there might be different decision makers or influences in the decision in that organization that care about different things, but also feel confident that you're always developing as a facilitator and you're getting better and better at what you do. You already have that sort of tacit understanding of the of the organization, so the learning curve will be less steep, and that yeah, um, the value of what you do is increasing, you're in increasing levels of demand, and so you have priced up accordingly.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah. What are the pros and cons that you see in having standard prices like a menu card, even if it's easy to understand menu card? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Well, I think it's easier for you, but if your clients aren't talking to each other and if you're not publishing your pricing, it does mean that you're probably going to leave money on the table in certain situations. Yeah. I think often there's a lot of hesitancy to experiment with price, right? If you've kind of done the pricing and it's set, and then I think people like to just then focus on other things because it's easier. But actually, that kind of context is always changing and it doesn't have to be complicated to experiment with price. So just think about your next five proposals and how you might experiment within that. Almost, do you nudge the price up by 10% each time or 50% if you're really busy? And if you are offering a bronze silver gold, then which are people going for? Because if they're always going for your gold, then it's probably time to either create a new gold and add some more bells and whistles in, or to increase your prices. Yeah. Good one.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

It almost sounds as if if I would have packaged services that are almost like products, yeah. Then it might make sense to have a menu. This is what you get, shipping is easy. But then if it's more tailored, if it's more nuanced, then there's also more conversation with the client, and then we have more room for adjustments.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Yes, even more relevant to their particular case.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Yeah. One more question also regarding the credibility or the playing with prices. So playing with prices is beautiful when it's behind the curtains. Yeah. If you're selling something and you put the price on the website, how harmful is or what are the risks of what is worse, underpricing or overpricing, and how to deal with price changes? Yes, great question.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

So I think underpricing and overpricing can have long-term ramifications that you need to think through, right? So if you actually don't have repeat clients and your business is really a kind of one-off project model, then I guess that the risks of either are limited to that particular case. But as I think you're suggesting with the second part of your question there, if you're hoping for repeat business, then at some point you're going to have to kind of change the price going forward. So if you underprice, then there's obviously the risk of leaving money on the table, but also giving across the perception that you are, or you might make your prospect question the quality of your service if you've really underpriced. So if they're seeing this difference between, oh wow, I was expecting like a seriously high quality facilitator here, but this price is so low, it's making me question that quality. And yeah, it's then an anchor point that is harder to move up from. And then if you overprice, obviously, there's a risk that you lose the you lose the job and you've priced yourself out. So again, I go back to your personal situation. So are you rushed off your feet so can be a bit more aggressive with price or a bit more ballsy with price, or actually, do you just need to secure the next few clients? And it's time to sort of be a bit less aggressive. Also, I don't want to jump around here, but another suggestion for if you have a suspicion that your prospective client doesn't quite get the value of what you do, and you're like, hmm, and you probably, you know, your guts telling you, oh, I don't think they're gonna like my prices because I'm not sure they got it yet, or you know they are not experienced with facilitation, so they haven't seen it in action. Then I definitely encourage you to think about how you could give them a flavor of the magic. So at Untapped, we offer many prospects a 90-minute, we call it a pricing springboards session, which we design and facilitate, get all of their kind of key stakeholders in the pricing decision in the room, and start helping them align on their vision for pricing and surface lots of the roadblocks that might get in the way, and also react to a prototype of a proposal. So some uh a prototype of some a process that we might take them through. And normally that is for our clients, is actually the first time they've experienced facilitation, and the words they use at the end to describe it normally include things like illuminating and transformational, and you know, it's wonderful. And so it's like, okay, they get it now. Now, obviously, you might not want to invest like 90 minutes and the prep into something like that. But what could it be that both helps them see the value, get them making progress a little bit on their subject, also that we find it is golden because we then basically get get all the inputs we need to write a really great proposal. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

And I think they already they see where this could be going. Uh so they want to continue. And I think there's also the something about the reciprocity. So they received something. They they received something of value. So then they also feel kind of obliged to commit and to give back. Absolutely. And last uh Thought why this is working, I guess. They've already committed to put time in it. Because the commitment of putting all key stakeholders who are discussing the pricing means that these are the highest paid people in the company. If they're investing 90 minutes in the session, this already means something. So, and there's something cognitively that feels bad. If, oh, now we have invested this already. Do we really want to stop?

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Yeah, exactly that. And often I get asked, like, have you thoughts about charging for those sessions? Because they are creating value, but we don't, and we definitely don't intend to because of everything you've just said. Like it really, yeah, it is quite a powerful tool that I think anyone can figure out a way to do. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

And I just assume that yes, you do charge for the session, but only afterwards. So basically, once they sign then the deal, it will be a higher price. It's a premium service because they know what they are buying. Yes. And that's why it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

They're bought in and there's that trust there and familiarity from the outset.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Yeah. And if you would charge for it, it would give it a different flavor. The prospect clients would come in with a different expectation. Yes. And they would be looking for, oh, is it worth it? Did I get what I paid for? Instead of coming in with curiosity and an open mind. Smart. Thank you for sharing that. Pleasure. Yeah. So thank you for sharing this uh strategy. It's brilliant. And let's take this opportunity to just dig a little bit deeper into your facilitation work on pricing. Yeah. So what's the biggest challenge for you in these 90-minute taster workshops?

SPEAKER_00 46:06

So I think the biggest challenge in workshops in general, actually, and it's related to what we were discussing earlier, is like hybrid teams. We're finding at the moment, so a lot of our clients are fully remote. We are fully remote by design, but sometimes we unexpectedly have it where part of the team are in a room together, and then they've got other stakeholders who are joining remotely. And so it's just been like it can be a bit of a challenge to keep everyone focused in that meeting room sat together, to sort of stop the side conversations happening in the room, and to just make sure that it is still one conversation in we use mirror boards and in that like online Zoom or team session. I find the breaks are often the most dangerous bit because they'll go and further the conversation next to the coffee machine, and no one else is privy to that. So that's been quite interesting. Obviously, we design the exercises to ensure that they're as kind of inclusive and as possible, but still just didn't it's those little side comments in a room. And with some clients, we have actually encouraged them to just scrap the meeting rooms, and even if they are in the office, they join separately anyway. Yeah, yeah. I can totally relate to that.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

And I haven't I haven't thought of the coffee machine trap. Yes, they will of course continue the conversation, and I think it's it's good to be aware of that because then you can design that in. Yes. So once you know that this will happen and you cannot avoid it, then okay, after the coffee break, why don't you share with us what came up in your conversation? Just treat the coffee break as a breakout group. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

And what makes a workshop fail for you? I think if we have missing voices in the conversation, so pricing sits so centrally to product, marketing, positioning, branding, strategy. And actually, if we have one of those topics underrepresented, then it can cause real problems later. So in ensuring we've got the right voices in the room is really important. The second thing that can lead workshops to fail, which doesn't happen too often, but if the culture of an organization is still really hierarchical, then it can be a challenge, no matter how well exercises are designed, to level that playing field and really make sure everybody is truly comfortable to have a voice and inputs equally.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Interesting. So this brings me to decision making. So especially in very hierarchical organizations, there at least it's clear who who is taking the final decision. And I think for pricing, it's something there must be a decision at some point, and it must be transparent who's taking this decision. And I realize that often groups confuse a facilitated process with a democratic or process or something where the group decides at the end. What is your experience? Is it to get all the voices in to have all the perspectives, or is it something that everyone has to agree upon? And what are the pros and cons?

SPEAKER_00 50:04

No, so definitely the former. So to surface all of those key considerations and vantage points from across the organization, but then we always do need that final decision maker. And so we're very clear. Well, we ask the team to decide that up front, and so that's clear to everybody. And there will be we defer to them where there are forks in the road or key decision points as we go where we need to start sort of locking things down or ruling out different scenarios. So yeah, I think that and I mean some we could have decision makers for smaller components that might differ, but ultimately there's that overarching decision maker.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

And who needs to be in the room for optimal to have the sounding board of pricing?

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yeah, so for pricing decisions, it's typically those that lead marketing, strategy, product. Often the founder or CEO is present because it's such a sort of central, meaty, strategic topic. And also those that can be the best kind of customer champions and can really know their clients or customers the most.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

And how are you? I wonder whether this is a topic in your in your process to deal with money mindset. So because there's so much, we talked about that earlier, there's so much stories attached to pricing. And everyone has their pricing story. I remember when I was a kid, my mom told me that ladies don't talk about money. And then I be decide to become an entrepreneur, right? Whoops.

unknown 51:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

This was kind of an issue for the first few years. How do you address that? Is that something that you have to make explicit or that you even have maybe an activity around? Or is it Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 52:06

So I I think I think that's really common that we're just uncomfortable talking about price. So many people in your position, business owners, independent freelancers, suddenly find themselves sort of caught in the headlights when it they're asked the question. So what do you charge? And I think that pricing conversation instills fear into some of the most accomplished individuals. And I think that's totally normal. So my advice there, particularly for kind of facilitators, coaches, freelancers, is just you know it's coming, right? So expect that your your prospective client is going to ask about price. So you know it's coming. So let's get prepared for it. I think practice, practice, practice the words coming out of your mouth, right? So practice in the mirror, practice while walking the dog. Just get comfortable with how you say your price and how you frame it. So think, have that checklist in your head about, you know, the value you're bringing to this, what they're gonna get out of it, and why they should go with you. But then quickly followed by here is the price, but then also pause, right? So I think there's this tendency to just fill the space, and that's where some may start throwing in discounts or kind of overcommitting on something else, but just give the other person or the other people a chance to digest what you're saying and to react. And it's one of those moments where I think you should fake it until you make it, until it does feel super confident. So no matter how you feel inside, you need to ooze that confidence. My price is X. Big smile, right? You are fully because if you're not confident in it, they're not going to be confident in it. Yeah. How may they? Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I think also if you don't feel prepared, so sometimes early sales conversations can move quicker than you expect. So perhaps normally price comes up the second or third time you talk to them, whereas bam, someone asks you up front, but you haven't learned enough about them or about what they want to do yet. Don't feel pressured to share a price, right? You don't even have to share at like a ballpark. If you're not ready to just like let me ask you some more questions and I'll come back to you by the end of the day. Like, no problem. And lift that pressure off you in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. I just realized that yeah, the difference between pricing as a freelancer or an owner, founder, and pricing in a corporate is something totally different because we are less attached to it. Obviously. So so then I assume that if you're having these workshops with corporates or scale-up startups, then their money mindset is less relevant because it's not the price doesn't say anything. They don't have to pay it and it's not their product at the end. Exactly. But they are not the product.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Oh, yeah. Our willingness to pay is much higher when someone else's purse is involved.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

And I think this is something that we often, as freelancers or um solopreneurs, that we often forget when we work with corporates, that the person we're negotiating with, it's not their money.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

No, and the frame of reference is so very different. Yeah. So I uh spent 10 years with eBay. Actually, that's where I initially got the bug for pricing as such an amazing like lever. But prior to my sort of time in pricing, I was an analyst. And so we would only focus. So it's a $26 billion European business at the time. And just the decisions that we were looking to inform, so we wouldn't do anything that didn't kind of move the needle by less than a million dollars. And so at the time I used to think that's so cool. I don't get out of bed for anything less than a million dollars. But just then, in the moment when you're looked at to make these kind of decisions, you've got to decouple yourself from the scale of these numbers, right? Because it was very, very different to my personal reference points for financial numbers. So yeah, just remember that.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

And fascinating with eBay. What have you learned from your time at eBay about pricing?

SPEAKER_00 57:08

So I was uh responsible for setting the fees for selling on the eBay platforms around Europe. And so it was, I learned what an incredibly powerful and immediate lever it could be. But I also opened my eyes to the psychology of pricing. So the role it plays in decision making and yeah, kind of how to nudge a customer's behaviours using how you price and what you incentivize. Then, of course, on the customer side of eBay, it's just with their auctions versus fixed price, it's just such a fascinating uh pricing case study in itself for how items are priced. And uh we saw, for example, just the endorphins that come from winning an auction, people often get carried away with that. And if you had the exactly the same product listed as both an auction and fixed price, so you could buy it straight away at a fixed price, often the auction, the final auction prices would be higher than the fixed prices just because people got so into it. And yeah, really fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

It is so interesting when we think of economic theory that was increasing transparency about prices, it will all to a to a standard price. Exactly. And yeah, and fascinating with the fees. I think uh fees as such uh have such a psychological component. Thank you so much. No worries. Yes, we had parked one topic, which is the communication of price changes.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Oh yes, yes, great. Okay, yeah, let's talk about okay.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

Sorry, audience. And if someone was waiting for the answer, yes, because I deviated and then jumped on the on the train of talking about the workshops. If we're changing our prices, because we think that we and there are two ways. So we talked, and that's where we parked the question. We talked about overcharging and undercharging.

unknown 59:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

So I think changing the prices, and this would be my assumption, when we undercharged, it's quite easy. We can say, okay, the market has changed, I'm more busy now, or because of high demand, we're increasing the prices.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

Yes. And don't be apologetic about it. I see a lot of apologetic pricing or over-rationalizing uh long explanations for all the reasons that sit behind that, which just don't matter to the customer. So be clear and addressable, but don't be apologetic. Yes, good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

And what are we doing? What can we do if we realize, oh my goodness, we overpriced, we have to get this price down without losing face?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Yeah. So I think firstly, don't worry, just chalk it up as experimenting. I think if you have overpriced, you've therefore learned that by losing a sale, right? So if you're able to get the opportunity to just talk to that decision maker for five, 10 minutes, just get, hey, like, could you just give me a bit of understanding and what was behind your decision to well, firstly, did you go with someone else? Did you do nothing? Like, what was the role of price in your decision? Because often the easiest things to do when you lose a sale is to go, oh, well, it's because it's too expensive, particularly if you've kind of been really stressed about how to price it. But actually, it might be something completely different. It might be, well, actually, this company could do it at I don't know, quicker, or uh, we've worked with these guys before, so procurement would be faster, or any other reason. So if you're able to just sense check like what actually happened, and if it was about price, then you need to understand that too. So, what you know, if they confirm it was because you were too expensive, like why did they perceive that price to be too high? You know, how did they evaluate that price? How were they planning to evaluate like the return on that investment? So use it as an opportunity to ask all of those mon test questions that are going to help you next time. Because only then will you know, well, did I overprice by 5% or 50%? Um, don't kick yourself. It's all a learning journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

Yeah. Or did I just address the wrong client? Because maybe the overpricing was, yeah, it was just the wrong, the wrong persona that I tried to sell to. Exactly that. Okay, so first doing the homework before reducing the price and communicating the reduction. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wonderful. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. But is there anything that you wished to share but we didn't touch upon?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

I may think of many things after the call finishes, Miriam, but at this point, no. But just I guess overarching message is don't be afraid of pricing. It can be a really transformational tool in your business and use it to your own benefit. And yeah, start experimenting and start learning.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:51

Yeah, thank you. What I'm taking away from this conversation is the playfulness around pricing, the the many components and the research behind and why it does make sense to have a persona and to do all these empathy mappings. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

That we know from the other side. We are facilitating all of that. Exactly. But then to eat our own medicine and to enjoy the process. Um exactly that. Apply what you know. Yeah. Or seek help from um an expert. So we'll put your contacts in the show notes. Amazing. Great. Wonderful. Thank you, Tiffany. Thank you for staying tuned and for listening to the show. I know how busy you are, and I appreciate that you're sharing your two most valuable resources with me and my guest, your time and your attention. If you're looking for more conversation with other facilitators and for a community of practice, why don't you join Never Done Before, the community that I have built, and many of my podcast guests are already members. Visit neverdonebefore.org and I wish to see you there.