212 - Why Conflict is a Gift: The Inner Journey of a Skilled Facilitator with Sarah Norton & Steve Ray

Conflict in workshops is common, but how many of us seek to avoid it instead of embracing it?

It’s understandable, and dare I say natural, to do so, but as Sarah Norton and Steve Ray explain in this episode, conflict is a growth opportunity. The journey through conflict can be uncomfortable, but the destination beyond it is one of radical difference.

Sarah and Steve have trained countless facilitators in the art of conflict facilitation — not ‘management’ or ‘resolution’, but precisely ‘facilitation’ —  and share their key takeaways, common realisations, and secrets to success in this episode.

Find out about:

• How to use conflict as a growth opportunity and why it’s important to do so
• What work facilitators shall do to prevent themselves being triggered in conflicts
• Why well-facilitated conflict can be so powerful — and what can happen when it isn’’t facilitated
• Why a focus on inner work will serve facilitators better than learning more tools or methods
• How to create coherent and memorable principle statements for yourself
• Why facilitators are in the room to protect the space, rather than direct it
• How and why Sarah and Steve train facilitators to be consciously incompetent

Don’t miss the next episode: subscribe to the show with your favourite podcast player.

Links

Groupwork Centre website.

Connect to Sarah and Steve:

Sarah on LinkedIn

Steve on LinkedIn

Transcript

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SPEAKER_06 0:02

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate the collaboration that it takes results? My name is Meram Hatner, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show are Sarah Norton and Steve Way from Group Work. And we geek out on facilitation, facilitation training and what it is we can learn from conflict as a facilitator as a stadium. And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, scroll down to the show notes to download my free one page somewhere. And now lean back and be ready to be inspired. Hello, Sarah. Hello, Steve. Hello, group work. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Miriam.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, very good. Thanks for having us. Oh, thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_06 1:00

Yes, let's uh we are sitting here in Melbourne uh recording live. You're sharing one microphone, so we're gonna It'll be interesting. Yes. I'm gonna test that a little bit. And I always start with the same question. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Good question, Sarah. Over to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Thanks, Steve. Yeah, it's a really good question. I reckon I started calling myself a facilitator when I've got my first job as a facilitator. But I reckon I was doing a long time before that to some level. I worked with young people, I worked with adults and adult training. So using similar skills. But for me, I guess it wasn't until I did our year-long course in 2005 that I actually really stepped into my I'm really a facilitator now. So I needed I needed to do a course, but the skills were kind of sitting there, I think. It just brought it together a lot. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, I think the same. I think I needed to do a course first. I did the same course as Sarah. In fact, Sarah was my well one of my teachers. So it's a good question. Do I call myself a facilitator now? I do. If people say, What do you do? I say, Well, I'm a facilitator. So I give myself that name. But I'm aware that I'm not sometimes in the role of facilitator, I'm not pure facilitator. Like I'm often being a sounding board or actually having an opinion, you know, quite consciously to the group to challenge them. So that wouldn't, you know, in theory at least, it's not pure facilitation because I've got a I've got a view, but it's kind of a standing in a role. So from that point of view, as facilitators can do that, I do that. I usually do it consciously. I say, oh, okay, so I'm not hearing X, Y, and Z. What about blah, blah, blah, blah? And then people, oh, okay, that's interesting. So if you if there's a role that's not present in the group, then sometimes playing that role is something.

SPEAKER_06 2:58

And it's fascinating what you're saying about having an opinion. Because this touches neutrality. So to what extent must a facilitator be neutral can a facilitate, can a human facilitator be neutral? We're just talking about uh chatbots. And do you stop being a facilitator once you have an opinion? I'm happy to dive in on that one.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

I think it's a a layer, it's lots of layers to that question. And for me, if I'm gonna hold a space where people feel like I'm gonna support every single opinion, then yes, I need to be as neutral as I can. I think you're absolutely right, we all have unconscious biases, and a lot of our work is to seek out our unconscious biases so that we can stay that really that neutral. And Steve mentioned roles before, and so being really clear in myself that I've got a neutral impartial role and that, and also to the group, that that's the role I'm taking on. Now, it doesn't mean that I can, if I say I'm working with my colleagues and I'm facilitating a meeting with colleagues and I have a strong opinion, then I will always say, Steve, can you just take over the facilitation role here for a minute? Because I need to step in and say something from my perspective. But I think holding that role really strongly is really important. And you're right, we're not perfect, we're gonna get it wrong sometimes. But again, being authentic and saying, Oh, gee, I kind of put my opinion in there. I didn't mean to do that. I'll try not to do that again, like I just feel strongly about this or whatever. It also makes us more human and we can connect more with the group as well. So, yes, let's stay in that neutral role as best we can.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

And I think if you depart from it, just the main thing is to be conscious, like to let people know what you're doing, because I think there's nothing worse than a facilitator who is unconsciously stepping out of facilitator role and into some kind of consulting role and has no awareness about it, and suddenly you can feel the dynamics of the room changes because they know that that person hasn't got everyone's back equally. And I've seen people who are consultants actually try to facilitate a group and the group just turned on them. And uh that was just a lack of awareness about you know the craft of facilitation. I mean, I think that for me was the big epiphany when I did the course that oh, this facilitation thing is actually a thing. You know, it's like it's a it's a real thing. It's not like, oh, can you facilitate this meeting? Which is what my experience was prior to doing the course. Many people had used that word, could you facilitate this meeting, and basically left it up to me and my idea of what that meant.

unknown 5:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

You know, and it could be anything.

SPEAKER_06 5:36

And a few things came up. One is the notion if the and I think that's how you phrase it, Steve, if you sense that there's a perspective missing, then you would step in and take on an opinion, which is maybe different from sharing my own opinion as a facilitator and thereby putting a different hat on. So it's still in service of the group. Something is missing. And then the facilitator not being aware of it, and then the group turning on them. And one of my questions that I always ask is, what makes a workshop fail? So maybe we can take a moment to just dig a little bit deeper. What happened there and where did it break?

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I reckon it happens a lot because I think people conflate expert with facilitator. They put experts in the role of facilitator, like they run the meeting, and that's because they've had the knowledge. So the idea that the person who has, you know, the most important knowledge should be the one who leads a meeting. That's common. And it's crazy. Because, of course, that sends people into roles of being more passive and just go, well, they'll know. And so they become less, yeah, they they contribute less. Our big thing is one of many of our principles is that the wisdom is in the group. So as a facilitator, that drives you to stand back and to find out what is actually in the group and to encourage people to look deeper within themselves, what have they got, you know, to offer?

SPEAKER_04 7:09

I really like the fail question. And I think one of the biggest things for me that we see with people on our course and what they learn is around the unconscious dynamics and what we can trigger as facilitators. So if we're not aware of what's going on for us, say if there's conflict in the group and you know, we kind of get involved or we want to run away, then every unconscious dynamic will have an impact. And so if we're not, as Steve said, if we're not in that neutral role for starters and we're also not managing our own responses, then we are gonna create this very unhelpful dynamic in the group. That's that's the biggest thing for me. Like the processes you can learn, all the other techniques you can learn, the skills you can learn, but us having our um well having our shit together, really.

SPEAKER_07 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

That's what it's about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:59

And maybe the risk of not being aware of what's going on in the group and bringing too much of our own energy dynamic triggers in is also impacted by being an expert or being in a specific position because then we have we're not objective towards the outcome or towards the content. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

So absolutely. And I think we the more we know about a subject, like I've we need to know enough to be able to facilitate the conversation. So I remember running a workshop years ago on um recycling gas bottles in Victoria. Now, I don't know the first thing about gas bottles, but they did. And I could read enough to understand the language at least, but then it's asking the curious questions or saying to the group, okay, where are we up to? What are the main things here? But as soon as you've got an expert part of you, you're going to be driven to want to contribute. Oh, that's the wrong idea, or that's the right idea. Then you've lost the safety of the group. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Did you really do a workshop on guest bars?

SPEAKER_07 9:00

It was fun.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, I think there's so many things that can make a workshop fail, you know. But I I I think I agree with you that it's the when your awareness falls away, that's when it really becomes problematic. Because then that pure role of the facilitator is gone. And the whole idea of holding a group safe, you know, what does that actually mean? It's just you're just words unless you realise that it's possible to do it if you are acutely aware of your role, which is to be of service to the group and to help the group do good work together. That's it, really. If you go back to that as your basic underlying principle, then you can be on to yourself for those other things. So see, I don't get worried about being enthusiastic about the content. I get excited about it. And sometimes I do something. Wow, this is amazing. That's good, you know. But I probably make a whole lot of mistakes. Like I probably often say, Oh, that's a great idea. And I know that you're not me to do that as a facilitator, but I do, I get excited by it. And so, you know, I think there's the pure, pure facilitator, and then there's other kinds.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Something that's so we are gonna geek out on this because we love facilitation. One of the things as well for me is what you're saying, Steve, is that as soon as we are not kind of grounded in our and we're getting triggered by something in the group, say I'm getting nervous, say there's you know, the energy is going up in the group and I start getting apprehensive. Science is proving it all over the place, right? That the research is showing that as soon as we start getting stressed, we lose capacity to think as clearly we start losing the resources that we built up. Our skills can go, you know, we start to fuddle through it. And so for me, it's it's if we're not managing ourselves, it's not just the impact we have on the groups, it's the impact on we're having on ourselves and our potential to be the best facilitator in that moment that we can.

SPEAKER_06 10:51

And then I wonder where does authenticity come in? Because I also get excited and I find it very difficult to say, yes, and I fall in love with other people's ideas. And I have the impression that in order to create the safety or the space for participants to be their true selves, which will help them to generate the best ideas, they need to be authentic. For them to be authentic, we need to be authentic. So, and there are some facilitators who as soon as they get into the space, they change the voice, they change the and they become this almost a chatbot.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

Yeah. And so where the limits are how much authenticity It's vital for me. It's absolutely vital. Because if I'm not, for me, it's all about relationships and connection with other and with the group members. And so if I'm being authentically me, only then can they be authentically them. As soon as I put a mask up, then unconsciously they'll be protecting themselves. So yeah, and making mistakes. That's part of like we often joke when we make mistakes. Oh, we did that deliberately, you know, so you feel more comfortable. So you feel you can make mistakes. But it's about being real. If I'm real, they can be real. I'm vulnerable, and that's a really big part of connection.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

I think that's I think that's what happens when people think, well, I'm in a really responsible position here as facilitator, so you know, you have a lot of power, you know, you've got to use that wisely. So I think then what happens is people that responsible self comes out in the way that they behave. So that there's also responsibility, there's controlling, there's a whole lot of things that then shuts down some of their authenticity. And that is the problem because they feel like they have to do the facilitation in a particular way that you know is proper.

SPEAKER_06 12:34

Yeah. Which makes me wonder, and I maybe that's a nice bridge to come to your course. That whether we can learn to be authentic. It sounds as if we first have to learn all these self-control, these masks, these this is what I say, this is what I don't say, this is how I I really have to control myself, not to get too enthusiastic, but not too little. And then once I've learned all of that, then I basically have to come back to my authenticity because it became my second nature. If this is what you mean, how can you possibly teach that?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Well, I that's so good. That's so good. I mean, we talk about this whole idea of going through a process from being unconsciously incompetent to being unconsciously competent. And that process of moving through that means that you have to go back to your kind of your blind spots. You have to start at your blind spots. And some of those blind spots will be you trying to control things because you haven't yet become aware of the fact that actually that's a part of you that is feeling nervous or anxious or whatever. That's the self-awareness stuff that's like key to the work that we do. And and a lot of people go, Well, I thought I came to a facilitation calls and doing all this stuff on the unconscious, I don't get it. But by the time they get through to the end bit where they're really using those skills, you know, the communication skills and you know the facilitation processes, unconsciously, they get it. It really drops and goes, oh, right. Because then when things come up for them, like they get some kind of reaction to something somebody said, they're able to manage themselves, not control, but able to manage themselves and be aware that's not. Oh, I need to do something about that.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

Thanks, Steve. I'm hoping I remember the point that I was thinking about now. For me, it's about yes, everything you just said, Steve. And I kind of think it this sounds a bit weird, but a bit like an onion. I feel like our course, this is what it was for me, because I was a facilitator and I was doing facilitation. But then I came in and it was like a door opened, and I went, Oh, I've been like in the entry hall to facilitation. And there's actually a big mansion here with a garden and of our whole village. Like it just opened up this other world. Because for me, what it does is like an onion, it just peels back the layers. Because you're right, like we have all these parts of us that we have created in life, inner roles, we might call them, through formative years of childhood, through independence, whatever it is, our control or our fixer, our whatever it might be, and peeling those back and being able to really use their the offering they bring, I guess, or the strength they have, but using authentically, that's the challenge. And that's the stuff that I learned from the course. And so for me, Brene Brown, and I'm gonna forget it now because I always forget my quotes, but she's got this beautiful saying, I think it's Brene, might she might have got from someone else. It's uh soft front, strong back, wild heart. And for me, I feel like that's what we something like that anyway. That's what I feel like we really offer. That's what I got from this course, was like, I can still be a powerful female facilitator, but with warmth and with care and with love and a bit of wildness in there. I mean, that all that bundle is really important to me.

SPEAKER_06 15:46

So yeah, it's it's for the peeling back makes us stronger. Beautiful. Yeah, it makes sense that we have to have the self-awareness. But then you mentioned that you start well the first thought that I had while you described the journey you're bringing your course participant through sounds like a journey through the Dunning Kruger effect, where you start with total overconfidence, you don't know anything and you're super confident. Yeah, yeah. And then you learn and you realize, oh, there's the garden and there's a mansion, and there's a back door, and there's maybe four stories. Yeah, yeah. And then you get into the imposter syndrome, oh I actually don't know anything. But then at least you're aware of what you don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I mean, that actually points to the reason that the course we do goes for you know, the the year-long course goes for seven or eight months because as participants in that process, you have to experience that whole process. It takes time to process. And you're on processing it and you're processing.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

We have have people come back each month and go, they'd say, wow, it's been an amazing month.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And then the next month they go, wow, it's been amazing. Like the things just keep happening to them. And so we also do short courses, of course, but the amount of processing that happens in that unconscious field is much less. So, yeah, they learn skills, and sometimes, you know, they they do things really well, but it's limited in terms of that inner transformation, and that's a lifelong process, obviously. You're already always learning more things there.

SPEAKER_06 17:19

Yeah, it's a maturity you have to to go through. And I'm curious now about the so there's a short course for facilitation, as and then there's the eight, nine months. And when I look at all these courses that are, and at the moment they're mushrooming. There's so many facilitation courses, and many of them are quite short, and most of them focus on methods, activities. In order to be a facilitator, this is how you design a workshop. And I think we agree, and from the first part of our conversation, we didn't speak about any activity or any process. It's all about the inner work.

SPEAKER_07 17:56

All about that.

SPEAKER_06 17:58

So is it actually, can we still call it facilitation? To to go through a process of activities and methods, and she's been inner on our inner strategic planning meetings, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

You know, this is the conversation we're having right now, actually. And get and sometimes we get really excited about it, but we're at just at the entrance of that whole wondering because we think, well, it's great, you can be a great facilitator with self-awareness, but what else could we be doing out there? Who else needs this? And really, everybody in this world that we're living in, which is so polarized and it's got so much kind of uncertainty about it, there's so much disruption. People need to be self-aware, they need to have that emotional resilience, they need to know, oh, this is just a reaction that I'm having because of the bloody blood, instead of projecting it all out into the world. If you project out into this world, you will just go into a spiral because it's you know, it's so full on. So I think, yeah, that's part of the question we're asking ourselves. Well, who else, how else could we offer this content?

SPEAKER_04 19:03

Well said, Steve. Um we often talk about our training being 80% the person, and then so it's like that's what we offer the foundations, because we can go out there as a facilitator, or we can go out there as a manager or a leader or a negotiator or whatever. Or a parent. Or a parent. Any these are these skills are for everyone. And like we could sit in a workshop for two days with people and they could say, What if this happens? What if that and you go through all the what ifs, guaranteed a different one will happen the day after? So it's for us, it's about the foundations, which is why we talk about 80%. And for us, that's around having clear values, having clear principles, your self-awareness, which we've talked, you know, we put a lot of emphasis on, and then skills, really high-level communication skills. And you're right, the process is for us, that's the outer layer. It's important, but it's the outer layer.

SPEAKER_06 19:52

So, can someone go through the short facilitation course without having had the foundations? And then what is the risk of that? And I'm thinking of so many traumatized people out there, traumatized by having sat in bad workshops. Yeah. Because they have felt judged by the facilitator or judged by the group or just have wasted their time and life and good spirit. So, what is the risk of giving a facilitation training that is actually not even getting close to the core?

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Well, we wouldn't. I mean the risk is it it's out being out there. You know, there's lots of courses around how to deal with difficult people, you know, that sort of language, whereas we talk about how to deal with challenging behaviors because we can all be difficult, right? And it's this judge, like you say, this judgment. So for us, like our approach is we can't I wouldn't feel authentic or I would not feel comfortable delivering a training in facilitation or leadership or anything which didn't have those core values.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

But you're right. Well, what I'm hearing you say is that if you can't go deep, then what's its value? There are people who've just done the two or three-day course who have been transformed through that process. Like they've just never looked at themselves and in ten minutes of reflection using the model that we have, which is a very light, whimsical model that has bears and an owl in it, that's very play school-like, and people go, What is that? But it actually allows them to be quite open and vulnerable because it's not this kind of really heady, heavy thing. And they're often, oh wow. And so it opens a door, and if they go into that door, they just keep going. So that's what we do. We open a door really through the workshops and allow people that chance.

SPEAKER_06 21:44

So if I understand it correctly, it's you're still covering the foundations and the deep stuff. Yeah. It's just maybe a little bit lighter. And it's like a taster. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:55

Rather than the deep course.

SPEAKER_07 21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

So sorry, people but People finish our year-long course and they say, I've got to start again. Because that you know, it's that feeling of the deeper you go, and I'm sure you have this experience, like a lot of facilities out there will. Like we never get there, right? We're never the perfect facilitators. Always learning. That's why I love it.

unknown 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

It was really interesting. I was facilitating a group yesterday, two days. No, it was actually one day, this group. And they hadn't done any face-to-face. Just about like two. Yes, just about probably. Well, it did because it was face-to-face and everything's been online. It was the first face-to-face workshop that they had done for four years.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Wow. They said, it's so different, isn't it? Wow, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

But then they were practicing, like by the afternoon, you know, that kind of connection between everybody had really deepened and they were able to take more risks and be more vulnerable with each other. And I was watching them in their little groups, they were all off in groups of three and four, practicing this one scenario where the manager was being kind of attacked by this group of uh staff who were really disillusioned, disengaged, didn't like each other, and they said, Oh how would you do that? Go off, have a go. And I was watching this one guy, and he was doing all the skills right.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

And when this person said, You did X, Y, and Z and blah blah blah blah, and he said, I can really hear what you're saying. And and I I just ran over and I said, Stop! I said, That is so good. But did you really hear what you were saying? She just called you a bloody bar, wouldn't you go?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Oh wow, that's pretty full on. And he goes, Oh, yeah, I suppose I would. And that is an example of doing the technique and not actually being the authentic self. You've got to be authentic, but you can't. This is what's so tricky about it. You have to be anchored in that wise core. Because if you are triggered by that, you will come back. You'll either freeze or you'll just come react back. So once you've kind of done that self-awareness, where you have got the capacity to go, oh wow, that really hurt me, but you're still centered. And the person can hear that, oh yeah, I could have said that better. But if you react with emotion, that will just set up a kind of the loop that we live in, actually the world that we live in, action and reaction, you know. Does that make sense? Totally.

SPEAKER_06 24:13

And I I loved it. This um yes, it's so it feels so good and it sounds so good to have this textbooked example of a reaction. Then would you actually do that if it really happened? Yeah. Well, no. Yeah, yeah. And that's why we need the longer practice to make it second nature.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

And for me, that stuff around principles as well. You know, to to go in with goodwill, even if we're in conflict with someone, you know, to be able to for me to be able to say to Steve, I find this really hard to hear, because it's really challenging me, but I appreciate it's coming from a good place to assume that. So principles are really important there as well.

SPEAKER_06 24:52

And when you say principles, I wonder is it something that needs to be the same for all facilitators? Or does every facilitator have to find their own principles they're grounded in? Because for instance, I had interesting conversations with facilitators about some of the principles like all the wisdom is in the room. Really? Always? Maybe not. Everyone who's in the room are the white people in the room. Ah, maybe not. So to what extent and these are statements that sometimes we don't even dare to say out loud because oh, we're the facilitators, yeah, and the wisdom is all in the room, and we're these ever-understanding people. Yeah. And then we turn around when we're alone. We become so judgmental. So, how can we find our own principles? Or how do you help those who go through the course to find the principles that they can really authentically ground into?

SPEAKER_03 25:51

It's a really good question. I'm happy to jump in if you're happy for me to.

SPEAKER_04 25:56

Yes. And I love principles. I get very passionate about them. And I didn't actually get them before I did our course. And I remember ringing up Glenn, who was the teacher when I was on doing the training, like six months afterwards, go, I just found another principal. Because I think we can realize when they're getting challenged when we're running groups, which is one way to find them, but not a useful way, I guess. We all learn from our mistakes, right? But for me, what we do on the course is we get people to think about their values as a principle. So what are values? But it's very much about their own principles. I mean, there's lots of organizations or strategic bodies out there that have their own principles, and some of them are great, but we've got to own them. Like I can't just take someone from a textbook and say, Yeah, they're mine. It's got to be meaningful for me. So, you know, like a value of compassion, that would be a value. And for me, then we often put like a sentence with it for the principal, which is like the guiding statement. So that'd be like, everyone deserves, or I believe. So for me, like if I've got compassion, then as a as a facilitator, I want to have unconditional regard for everyone in the group.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

We act with unconditional reaction.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

Act with unconditional regard.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, like you know, things like compassion and kindness and things like that, they're feelings. And you might not feel kindly towards that person, but what would you be doing if you were being kind? That is the real key because the feelings come when all of that reactivity is stripped away. And we we're all works in progress, and that we are gonna be deeply triggered at times, and in those moments you just have to take a deep breath and say that person is just like every single person in this group, they've got something to offer, and the fact that I don't line up with that particular way of seeing the world is not relevant at the moment. I've got to be able to hold them just like I would hold somebody else, because that's how you hold the whole group. If you start dividing, you know, the group up on well, they're obviously a waste of space, they're the good people because they've got good ideas and they've got values like mine, then you've you've it's gone, right? The group's gone. But if you can hold the worst, you know, behavior in the room, there is something that you do to the to the group because people say, wow, they see you as a facilitator holding a person who's actually got quite you know potentially an antagonistic view or one that's really challenging other people. And you're just you might just be validating the fact that they're holding that view by saying, Well, you can obviously really feel how much passion you have for this idea. Do you want to say a bit more about it? Like you give them some airtime, which is counterintuitive. You might totally disagree with it. In fact, if I disagree with somebody, this light bulb comes on and says, You need to validate them. Not for them, for you. I need to reflect back what I'm hearing because I do not line up with what they're saying.

SPEAKER_06 28:46

And then we have a tendency to make it our own or to interpret and to put a layer on top of that and thereby deweigh the entire session. Yes, thank you. I just want to nerd out on this the whole time.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Um, I'm loving this. And this links back to the self-awareness stuff, because if we're having a reaction to them, we're not managing our responses. It also links to the compassion that our model is all about self-compassion. Knowing that I have parts of me, like my inner critic, who I really didn't like for a long, long time in my life, because they were so critical, they were so awful to me, like so much more awful than I would be to anyone else. But actually, I'm realizing, you know, through the work we do on the course, that actually that part of me is helping me learn all the time. So if I'm in a group where someone is being very critical, I can go, oh, I've got one of those. It's just that theirs has taken over, but mine isn't yet. And I go, wow, this person has a great gift of learning to bring to the group. They're seeing stuff that isn't going well. Everyone else might be rolling their eyes, saying, Oh, here Bob goes again, being critical. But actually, if I can meet that person and say, Wow, what you're bringing here is a role of like really unpacking this and seeing what's going to go wrong. So we can't be compassionate to others unless we're self-compassionate first.

SPEAKER_06 29:59

Yes, which reminds me that what you said about the difficult people on air quotes, they're not difficult, they just trigger something in us. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And so often I have to remind myself, okay, this is not my mother.

SPEAKER_05 30:13

Yeah. Just because I react as if it was my mother, doesn't mean that she is. And then I can feel all this reaction coming up in me, which has nothing to do with the other person.

SPEAKER_06 30:26

No, it's my memory, and yeah, then be compassionate. Absolutely. And the other thing that I realized only recently, there was this one person in many workshops, always critical, and I called him my sand in the wheel with lots of compassion, but sometimes I would get annoyed.

SPEAKER_07 30:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:47

And then suddenly he stopped showing up. And that's where I realized that something is missing. Because what he was modeling for the group, that it was okay to be critical, it was okay to challenge me, it was okay to be just against everyone else. And suddenly, as he wasn't there anymore, this role wasn't taken. And suddenly everyone was in this agreeable space where suddenly there was something in the room that remained unsaid. And I realized that the willingness to lean into this discomfort of inviting conflict and inviting these other voices that feel so good to leave them out, but actually in the Yeah, yeah, actually not.

SPEAKER_04 31:34

No. And it you end up at a surface level. Yeah. And that role, because we like to see people as being taking wrong roles, it's not all of them, they just happen to be stepping in that role. You're right, that critical role. Gee, it's an important one in a group for exactly what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I think it's what conflict is so incredibly important, like our ability to manage conflict, because it's when conflict pops up that important things are revealing themselves. And if as facilitators we try to move away from that dynamic because we want everything to be okay and people to be safe and all that kind of stuff, which are all important things, then we can miss out on the gold that's there if we can work our way through the conflict. If we can say, Oh, wow, this has really got some heat in it. I can see there's a lot of reaction, a few people have got their arms crossed, looking out the window. Okay, right. So let's just pause for a second and ask ourselves, what's what might be going on here? So it's like you take people out of the content, the task that they're doing, and ask that meta question, which is about making sure that you're looking after everyone. That's the maintenance because we're all here together, we're doing this big work, and you might just pause it like that so that people can just process the fact that they're because everyone reacts different. Some people are going in there really full on other people, might be triggering and past trauma. So you've got to be able to sit with that. Moving away from it is not going to help the person who's just felt triggered by it because they're going to be waiting for the next time conflict comes up and hoping desperately that you move away from it again.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

We were working with a client this morning, Steve and I actually had a meeting this morning, and we mentioned the word safe spaces, and it was great because he said, actually, I want to talk about brave spaces. And I really like that reframing that yes, we want to create a level of safety so that people can enter in and step into a safe space if they're willing to, but actually, what we're trying to do is create brave, which is where we need those roles, like that gentleman you spoke about to come in.

SPEAKER_06 33:31

Yeah. Because it it requires bravery to step up, to speak out, to challenge. Absolutely. And that's where the creativity lies.

SPEAKER_04 33:39

Yes. That's right. And the di and the welcoming a difference, and the that's where we're getting great minds. We often say great minds, there's that lovely saying, great minds think alike. Well, we say great minds think differently. Yes. Yeah. Let's bring in the difference.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah. Go back to the world that we're living in. Yes. The world that we're living in is crying out for people to be able to work in those spaces. That is the space that we have. The facilitation space, if you want to call it that, which is the world now, is one where there's high polarity, high emotion, a lot of distrust. You've got to be able to work within that.

SPEAKER_06 34:15

And at the same time, we're creating our own filter bubbles. So through the algorithm, we just get confirmation about what we believe anyway. I also met a lot of facilitators, but I think since you're training so many facilitators, you see them at their start. And I wonder whether the personality who feels attracted to the world of facilitation might be actually someone who is averse to conflict, who likes the agreeable space, who likes to bring everyone together and to collaborate and to have this kind of coziness. So, how can we bring this together? Because it's something we have to unlearn then to really feel comfortable in conflict. And another layer that I want to bring in and that I'm curious what you have to say is the conflict is such something that we learn in our families. And if I grew up, well, personally, I grew up in a family, we had lots of conflict. So we love each other and we hate each other very loudly.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Completely opposite.

SPEAKER_06 35:22

But at least I know that so I have no problem with conflict, so I can shout at someone because I know that this doesn't have to do anything with my love, and I can turn around and hug them and then everything's fine. Whereas if someone grew up in a space where they were punished for conflict or being loud with um being ignored or being rejected, then all of this will come up in a workshop space. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So how do you train that?

SPEAKER_04 35:50

Oh, it's a really good question. And I think that's the module that people really look forward to in the year-long course. And again, it comes back to our self-water. You're right, it's formative years. That's where we learn to how we deal with conflict. And sometimes it's not very resourceful. And some people can jump in and, like you say, be very confident about that. But if we do that unconsciously as facilitators, there'll be people out there who are not comfortable. Yeah. And the opposite. You're up the opposite. I'm not comfortable with conflict. So I had to learn to kind of manage the anxiety that used come up with me, you know, before I do a conflict session or if conflict popped up. So it's about, you know, when do I step in and have I stepped too far or not enough? Or those things. It all comes back to self-management for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

I mean, I think the good thing about it is you go back and you say, yes, okay. By the time conflict comes up in the course, you're thinking, oh, well, I'm learning about conflict. But you've had so much self-awareness processing that you're really conscious about your reactivity because conflict will bring it all up, anything that's kind of sitting there. So even if people aren't learning about conflict, they're learning a lot about themselves. So this is why we go back to the thing of is the facilitation course or is it some kind of you know, self-awareness, self-I don't know, emotional resilience course, you know, really, you know, it's hard to know sometimes. But I mean, people do learn the skills, they can be a facilitator for sure, but heaps of people leave the facilitation course and say, that was transformative, and I'll never facilitate again, you know, like I do want to share one little story about conflict.

SPEAKER_04 37:20

We uh this is years ago, we had this delightful woman who was doing the course, and she came in and she said, I just don't get conflict in my groups. She said, Maybe I just I think my groups are just lovely. I just don't get and then we did the conflict module, and she came back the next moment and said, I've got conflict in my groups. I didn't allow the conflict to happen. So at a very unconscious level, she was keeping it all, as you're talking about, you know, all light and happy and cozy. And she said, it transformed. I went in with this awareness after doing that module, and she said, suddenly it's all there and it's all out. But she said the transformation that happened in the group because she allowed the conflict, a group that goes through conflict and survives and you know is facilitated well through that's transformative for the group. Yeah from the point of view of hearing different perspectives, of feeling stronger as a group, of having you know just better relationships. It's a great gift. Conflict is actually a great gift, as in every relationship, right?

SPEAKER_06 38:16

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, a romantic relationship that never went through conflict will break in the first fight, and otherwise it will deepen with each one.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

And I come back to what Steve was saying before. I think globally, I think I really we all of us, I think, in a in our team have been feeling the pull the last few years about the world needs facilitation and we the world needs great facilitators who have the skills, who have the self-awareness, because we're not doing well globally. Yeah, we're just fearless, we're so fearless.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

And some people go, I'm not sure about fearless. That's reckless, isn't it? You know, like so we go, ah, fearless is fearless, reckless is reckless, you know. So brave, yeah. But I think what is a fearless facilitator? It's someone who's prepared to go into spaces and say, whatever turns up will be okay. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_06 39:10

And it's maybe also at the cost of being disliked. Yes. I think that's maybe the biggest the biggest risk of facilitation is to this wanting to be liked and to be part of the group.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

It feels great when you when I crack a joke and the group laughs, right? It's great, isn't it? And Steve and I, when we've co-facilitated today, we have a yeah, we co-facilitate quite a lot. I love working with Steve. And we we have a ball, the group have a ball, it's it's a real validation for us. Absolutely. So it's a real trap we can get into about wanting the group to like us. But actually, we also need to be an agitator in there and ask the tough questions and to challenge and to notice things and to bring stuff to the surface that is not being talked about. We call them ghosts.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Yeah, you know, you just named there that dynamic within us that is related to a particular part that we know as the people pleaser, right? So we have to work with that people pleaser that is just wanting to kind of say, whatever you do, don't upset the group. Okay, you've got to be liked. So we've got to now somehow, metaphorically or practically, sit down with that and say, look, it is important to be like that, is a good offering. But sometimes we're gonna do things that are gonna be really good for the group that they won't like. That's your job as a facilitator. So in those moments, that'll be okay. Not being like will be okay, and we have to kind of do that reflection work with that self because that needs to change within us. You know, people say, Look, take me or leave me, I'm like this. And that's just not true. It will be like that if you say that. But if you think, actually, that thing that I've got going on there, that's a real challenge to me. If it's an unconscious action, the only way you can change it is to do that reflection work somehow. Like talk about it, look at it, what's its gift, what's it sort of, how's it trying to help me? Those kind of questions can help to shift that. And I think that's really important. Otherwise, you just stay static, you know.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

I think the biggest thing for me about the people pleaser, which I have to say, and I know you know, gender fluidity on the female end of the spectrum, it is a very female thing. The people pleaser is often a lot stronger for females. And and Mama Bear, and I've got a mother hen, a very strong mother hen. She likes to look after the chooks.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

But um Sarah will be doing something, I'll go.

SPEAKER_04 41:36

Um, and for me it comes down to I've got to like myself. Because then if I really like myself, well, look, let's say it what it is. I've got to love myself. If I don't love myself, then I'm gonna be seeking it externally. Yeah, I don't need to seek it externally if I'm okay. You know, like so I don't uh it it's taken me years, years and years to get there, but that to me is a really important step. I won't be seeking it because I don't I don't need the love.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

See, we're getting to the heart of it, aren't we, after this time? We're getting to love, right? This is where the heart is because we remember last last week when we were with that group, and there was a woman doing a role play, and that had a few people who were playing the her scenario, and it was about her standing in her strength, right? And it was amazing because when she was there in her strength and really acting from this place of certainty, she could be really like connected to this person, but also telling them, nah, that's not gonna happen. And you could just see and feel that there was a lot of action that was really governed by love. You wouldn't call it, oh, she's being loving, because we have this idea about what love looks like, but love is about deep respect for another human being, you know. That's that's how I think it matters.

SPEAKER_06 42:54

I love this example and that we're talking about this love and the self-love, because I think it's also a matter of responsibility. So who are we that we are putting all this responsibility on the group that they have to love us, that they have to give and then we're very on the slippery slope of judging them because if then we have we have expectations towards them that if they're not meeting them, they will sense it. Yeah, I think there is something in the room that we have expectations and they were like, okay, we need to behave now. And then it becomes very toxic. I wonder, and this was um this thought was triggered by you exchanging your dynamics in the space. And I wonder whether we are not leveraging enough the opportunity of co-facilitation. Because if we have this, we can it's easier to lean into the good cop, bad cop if we have someone by our side who compliments us and who

SPEAKER_01 44:00

reminds us and who will also give us the the censor it's okay if the group doesn't love you I love you yeah yeah I love you anyway yeah yeah yeah and in the recent state of facilitation report that session lab um I think that 1500 maybe contributions so who filled in the questionnaire and there's a minority of facilitators who actually co-facilitate and I wonder right now what the risk actually is because we are we need the groups then to give us all this validation and we might not be aware of well and if we and if it's not that then there'll be some other aspect of ourself that'll be making up for that lack because you're right it's almost like that person can s help you self-correct by saying oh did you see that like oh yeah okay thanks for letting me know you know so they can pick up things if you've got a good relationship you can pick up things that you're not realizing that you're doing but see I think other I don't know I've had facilitators when I've just been looking at them and thinking you have got a clear agenda right to take us from this point to that point and that's okay you know it's I can see that that's what you're trying to do but then I also feel like I can't say some things because I know that it's going to be counter to what you want to do as a facilitator because you're saying okay so what we're gonna do is this and then we're gonna do this and then we're gonna get to this point and I'm thinking it's laid out and that I think happens when you as a facilitator want to make sure that it goes right it goes well it goes to plan. You've got an agenda and you want to make sure that agenda works and if somebody takes you off off that agenda altogether how good a facilitator are you in dealing with that particular dynamic?

SPEAKER_05 45:51

That's a little control freaking right next to the people pleaser.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

Yeah yeah and look I think for me as well co-facilitation it's interesting what you that what that research brought back because we have a 15 is our cutoff like one person for 15 people assuming that's not conflict or it's not major heat or something anything over that you need to because you cannot be scanning the group be aware of the dynamics that are going on in a group as well as running a process if it's just you for more than you know 14 15 people. Also for me I want to be able to be my best in a group and I know I'm my best in a group when I've got a co-facility idea has got my back and yes I am looking at you particularly Steve because we've worked together for years and we have fun together and so therefore we're relaxed. We have fun together like and that is a vibe that is really good for the group you know and Steve will spot stuff I'll spot stuff are different styles you know they do complement each other but they are different and so we'll have different experiences. Steve will pick up on stuff that I miss and vice versa. So yeah co-facilitation is it's a joy for me and if I'm enjoying what I'm doing then surely I'm giving my best to the group and that's what it's about at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

We have some of our most creative you know moments when we're with a group a group will go off and do something go, you know we could do we could do this and do it. We've never done this before let's try that. Okay. And so we'll try something and we know that it'll go well and we build to it. We build on it don't we? And we could do you know that kind of yes and yes and and I think as great facilitators you'd never want to get to a place where you're just rolling it out because you are just no people pick up on whatever dynamic they pick up on that kind of aliveness that you either bring or don't bring and if you've got that then that just does something to people. Even if they don't learn anything they go out thinking oh I feel energized. It's gotta be a good thing. Yeah yeah yeah yeah after all this training and experience what remains your number one facilitation challenge oh look for me I have to say there's a two and this is why I facilitate with Sarah it's which is bad because I don't want to rely on uh you for this but it has been a thing where for me having structure and being really well prepared that is a weak spot for me and when I'm facilitating by myself I probably overprepare because I think I've got this little part of me saying you know you don't prepare well you really need to prepare yes I will prepare well but it's not my happy place like Sarah will be just oh and she'll you know map out a plan and timing I think we're probably both pretty crap at timing because we get enthusiastic so you've got an agenda and you think look we're only two hours over time no you know because a day can creep and I think when that happens you are kind of letting the group down because you've said this is what unless you're conscious about and say hey look we're 20 minutes behind what we're thinking of doing is X, Y, and Z. That's okay because of you know and if you negotiate with the group and the group sign it's okay because sometimes you do need to go off on tangents but you gotta do it consciously. It's when you just get lost then it's a problem.

SPEAKER_04 49:16

What are you oh there's so many I think my it's a really great question actually I think my biggest challenge is still conflict and it's not conflict in a group like because when it happens like when I'm running a group and if it what we call pop-up conflict if it's suddenly there I'm in the zone I deal with it it's fine like I feel very confident to deal with it it's when I know I'm going into a space which has the conflict so that's actually my biggest challenge is managing myself beforehand. And I've spent years working on it and I'm still not there. Damn it but it is it's just the I think it's it's my mother hen that is she's so strong because she loves everyone in the group and doesn't want anyone to get hurt. So it's this real feeling of probably you know I've got a responsible part of me as well you know there's a little gang of creatures in me that want to yeah you know not ensure a safety for people and going into conflict I know is not a safe place for a lot of people because that everyone has their story with conflict and some incredibly traumatic stories with conflict. So I'm fine once I'm there and I'm fine once I'm running the thing but it's actually the preparation that I get a bit a little bit toey. You know I just have a chat with Steve. He's great with that see that's why co-facilitators are brilliant not just in the session but outside as well because I know I could just pick up the phone and go, Steve, I'm gonna be nervous you know he'll just talk me down. It's great.

SPEAKER_06 50:40

So would this be your strategy then beforehand? Because I can also imagine if you're going into the group with anxiety or with stress this will spill over to the group it's funny I don't think I go in with it.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

It's just the beforehand if that makes sense so it's like it's like the build up it's like the same as a job the anticipation. It's the anticipation once I'm there I'm actually fine but it's the anticipation. Look my strategy I reckon is a lot to do with self-care because if I you know I I love swimming in the ocean I you know I love eating chocolate hanging out girlfriend all that stuff as long as I'm doing a lot of my self-care eating well sleeping well the basics then I'm much better at managing it. It's more that's my challenge bit, my learning edge if if I'm not feeling good about my self-care and I'm not resilient I guess then I know that part of me can sneak in that kind of goes oh it's really scary. But if I'm okay I'm okay do you know like does that make sense? Yeah absolutely it's definitely lessening over the years but it's still a it's still interesting it's still there.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

And in for instance I'm taking cold showers every morning and every morning there's this moment of don't want to do this. I don't want to do this and then once I'm under it it's fine. But it and I it's similar to that it's very the anticipation although I know that I survive and I know that I feel better afterwards.

SPEAKER_04 52:04

It's still like yeah I'm a cold water swimmer so I absolutely get it.

SPEAKER_06 52:08

Oh yeah I learned two mantras here in uh in Tasmania I am that person I am that person I am that person to go into the cold water and the second one was you never regret a swim.

SPEAKER_04 52:21

Yeah that's one of my that's one of my mottos that's one of my mottos yeah so I got into the ocean grew up and I loved it because you never regret and when you're in and the buzz afterwards it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_06 52:33

I'm not a water person yet yeah you are now right yeah there you go we can never say never I'm that person you are you are that person yeah given all this personal development stuff that we have to do in order to become facilitators and we're training facilitators and you did how can you actually test whether someone is a good facilitator how can you possibly put your stamp and test someone whether they're there also given the fact that we're never there yes such a good question such a good question.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

About how many years ago was it we I don't know eight years ago or something we wrote an advanced diploma in facilitation. As far as we know it's the only one in the world we couldn't find another one anywhere because I think it is one of those craft because it is a craft and I think it is one of those things very hard to pin down. Now we don't run it as a diploma anymore just wasn't worth as being a registered training organization blah blah blah but we do still have assessments. And yes it's hard to assess some of the stuff that we teach so what we do ask people to do things like a creative piece around their self-awareness. So we need to understand that they have an in-depth understanding of their self-awareness. We get them to write a lot of reflection what we call reflection logs so that's stuff around what happened in the session what did you do what was going on for you what skills did you use so that they're actually getting into a reflective state because we talk about reflection being really key in learning and we do some observation in the class as well. So that's part of our our process so we kind of try and cover it that way. But look I think yeah in our course just people you can see them change as they're going and then they give a presentation at the end which is just divine about their learnings.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

I think one of the things that we're always conscious of is helping remind people of what a responsibility it is to be a facilitator of a group to hold that group and because that's quite a weight then together with their self-awareness there's a check and there's a balance there happening where they go am I up for this like we don't produce these facilitators to think oh I've got the certification look it says so on the on the piece of paper I can now go out and do this stuff. We create people who get they get that and they go yeah but can I do this conflict? Can I actually do this? What do I need to do it? So in a way what we've created hopefully is not people who've you know forced into their head a whole lot of information and knowledge but instead have got this self-awareness that says I'm a learner I will always be a learner as a facilitator and I need to be really conscious of whether or not I'm up for this so we have a one of our blocks is all about what we call from offer to outline. So it's like you're facilitating from the moment somebody approaches you or you approach somebody and you're checking out is this group the group for me is this person who is wanting me to do this work the right person? Do they know about the way in which I'll facilitate the principles that I use some people just basically are going to say I want a person to facilitate and I want this outcome. And if you're just kind of going okay well you've already departed from the key principles of being a facilitator so we have big conversations about the importance of being able to say no. So there's a lot of boundary work that we do and kind of comes up through there that so I that doesn't really answer that question in terms of how do you know but you hope people have enough awareness to know to err on the side of caution while also being aware if they're taking risks but not you know reckless ones.

SPEAKER_06 56:22

And it sounds to me as if you're opening this door and once you've tapped into self-awareness you cannot yeah you cannot step away from it.

SPEAKER_05 56:31

You cannot unsee it.

SPEAKER_04 56:33

It's a curse it's a curse yeah yeah and it does it does you can't go back.

SPEAKER_06 56:39

It's the matrix it's a spiritual program right it's actually not facilitating let's just get it out there right which then maybe now the the next step and we talked about it that it's so important in today's polarized world that to spread the skill yes so how to educate the world on self-awareness well because basically that's then it and I because I have the impression that many of those who actually need to facilitate they're not even aware that it's facilitation what they're lacking. No so when I speak to team leaders or managers and and they complain and they have all this pain of dysfunctional teams and silent quitting and toxic behavior and like the answer is facilitation.

SPEAKER_07 57:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 57:31

There was a lovely article just recently in Forbes about exactly that the overlap of leadership skills and facilitation and how all leaders need facilitation skills.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Exactly yeah but that that's a really good question because sometimes you know in my more somber moments I just think oh it's a waste of time you know because it it's that thing of the door's not even open. If people can't even know what it is then you've got this thing it's like here it is now what are you talking about? So it's like opening the door we haven't even got there for a lot of people because the culture is so strong the behaviors the way in which people work that so much dysfunction is normalized that people have just got used to doing workarounds you know oh we'll just sack those people we'll get other ones in or we'll just send them off to HR. So you've set up structures to normalise dysfunction you know the fact that HR spends so much time dealing with people's you know inability to communicate says so much, right? Well that should not be a role of HR that should be a role of people in the organization talking to each other. Learn that skill. But people don't even know that it's a skill you can learn that you can learn to deal with conflict you can and you should be able to learn that.

SPEAKER_04 58:49

So yes and for me in response to your question it's step by step because I know that we have a tendency to want to just go like we'll just change the world but I feel like what we're doing in the work that we do every workshop we run whether it's for a government agency whether it's in a charity whether it's with volunteers whatever it's that you know the more people we can get who have that level of self-awareness and the skills it's not just them it's the ripple. And I think for me that's the biggest thing is the modeling. I remember working with um a local government agency years ago and I worked with one team on an ongoing basis for a few years. And what was divine was that whole council like they they I worked with that isolated team and they were fed up with the culture in that local council because exactly what you described Steve. But then over the years people go I want to work with that team. What are they doing? That's really different. I really like what they're doing. And so the ripple effect was actually through the modeling because people going we're gonna be we're gonna make a different choice here we're gonna be creative about who we are and how we're gonna be so I think yeah lots of things like we just got to keep taking those steps forward but also the modeling we can do as individuals in the world is um I think it's incredibly powerful.

unknown 1:00:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:01

And then to remember that sometimes it can be transformative to be in a workshop. Yeah. So this um I think experiencing how it is to be listened to to finish a sentence without being interrupted to feel safe of having a different opinion yeah maybe seeking more of those moments.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:23

A privilege is part of our job is that we do create spaces where people say we we don't speak like this together as a team or wow haven't we done brilliantly we've got on so well today we're like yeah that with us but it is it's a feeling of people walking away having a different relationship with the people they work with or the community they're with whatever it is it then that's that's changed forever right that's improved forever so it's a great privilege what we do really.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

What's the future facilitation go on Steve over to you in the future everyone will be a facilitator well I think maybe um maybe the the word facilitation becomes much more understood. Yeah then maybe more people are doing it not as a thing but even as participants in a group they are facilitating themselves. We talk about the facilitatory participant because people say oh it's you know if you're a participant you can't do anything no you can that's actually you've got the skills and you can ask the right questions to help a group do good work if the facilitator's kind of left their post or doesn't even know that they're in a post, you know so I mean hopefully that's it that more people become outside the formal role of facilitator they have the facilitator skills whether it's in workplaces or you know family situations I don't know how that's going to happen by the way maybe it's gonna be a policy change.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:56

I think schools is where I would love to see this more that our children in the world the next you know that generation are taught facilitation skills from you know very young like the self-awareness the communication skills conflict resolution if we can filter in there like how different would our government look today like because that's the models they've got right that's the leaders of our country who are abusing each other shouting each other doing all that stuff it's just I feel you're right it's like what we're doing is so counterintuitive. When people are open to it and they get it they love it but we're pushing against the tide.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:31

So I'm hoping the younguns coming up are going to be the yes possibly yeah and what just came to my mind is I had an interview with a diplomat and someone who is training diplomats in negotiation skills. And what I wasn't aware consciously aware is that politicians don't have facilitated meetings. They have a chairperson and a chairperson has stakes and has an agenda it's not a facilitator. No and whenever there is someone in the world that comes close to facilitation it's a mediator.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:10

This means there's a conflict yeah absolutely it's not in the language and it's not in the culture.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

But again normalized because everyone does the same thing you don't know what the difference is I mean I want to take up that issue of the you know the the next generation we the older generation has been doing that to the younger generation for frickin' ever right and I I think Greta Thunberg said it so well when she was at the uh the summit whatever she was where she got really really upset and she said this is all wrong you are putting it onto us to save the world that you are stuffing up. You know if you get this wrong I mean her the the the kind of the summary was if you get this wrong we will never forgive you. So you're not off the hook older generation get on with the job. It's now it's happening now don't just don't don't wait for the younger people to come through because this is a threshold time that we're in. You know it's like we're watching the tipping points drop away moment by moment. And if we don't do something significant if we don't match that rate of change that's happening kind of you know environmentally and socially with the changes in the way our culture works whether it's at a nation state level or at you know at the most tiniest level then I think yeah we're in trouble.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:35

We are in trouble I just want to work with kids yeah and I can imagine that kids would be very good at that actually and they're open. Because they're open and they're they're very responsible if they're put in charge of a process and they they're happy to to remain objective if this asks of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:55

I like what you brought in though Steve because I agree.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:57

I think you're right it it's our responsibility is now and not the if the future is also our responsibility but our our biggest push is now yeah we've got to find ways around that yeah by tomorrow please yeah tomorrow yeah and getting more people to learn facilitation skills and I it's funny I I hear from some yeah but if everyone learns uh facilitation skills where then the the jobs for the facilitators and I'm like that's our least about problems. Exactly so hey exactly so this would be a beautiful goal and on top of that I think just because people now learn to how to cook it doesn't mean that we're not going to restaurants anymore. And we actually appreciate eau cuisine and good restaurants even more the better we know how to cook.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

That's great.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:49

And what levels could we go to?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:50

Yes if we're mastering masters and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:56

And if our participants knew how to facilitate this would be an absolute game changer of where we can go with the group. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

Huge what you're doing Miriam is so good. This has been such a hard interview to have because all my facilitators what do you think Miriam but I think you know doing these podcasts and just really pushing the boundaries on what we should be doing in the facilitation world needs to happen. We need it's not good enough. Yeah you know do better do something you've never done before you know take that risk and see what is born when you do because um that will be when there there are breakthrough moments. Yeah you know so hopefully that is going to happen more I hope.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:40

What else can I say? Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

Thank you thank you so much it's been fun yeah and thanks for the work you're doing spreading the word it is really inspiring.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:52

And you've got to keep this in the uh podcast you can't have these anything yes and I will put the link to group work and to the work you're doing and the courses in the show notes. Thank you. Thanks Maria thank you for staying tuned and for listening to the show I know how busy you are and I appreciate that you're sharing your two most valuable resources with me and my guest your time and your attention if you're looking for more conversation with other facilitators and for a community of practice why don't you join Neverdone Before the community that I have built and many of my podcast guests are already members. So visit neverdonebefore.org and I wish to see you there.