workshops work Podcast
This is a podcast about facilitation: the practice of creating conditions for people to think better together.
Whether you’re leading strategy, navigating change or developing leaders, the quality of your conversations shapes the quality of your decisions.
Hosted by Dr Myriam Hadnes, behavioural economist, facilitator and founder of workshops.work, each episode explores the human dynamics of working together: how psychological safety is built, why some conversations lead to action while others stall, how leaders foster genuine participation, and what behavioural science can teach us about collaboration. Alongside these conversations, Dr Hadnes shares reflections from her own client work, offering practical insights from the realities of designing and facilitating workshops in organisations.
Recognised as the facilitation community’s most-recommended podcast in SessionLab’s State of Facilitation reports from 2024 to 2026, the show has grown into an archive of more than 350 conversations spanning the craft, the inner work, and the unexpected edges of facilitation. Whether you’re a facilitator, leader, consultant or L&D professional, you'll come away with sharper questions and a few ideas worth borrowing.
workshops work Podcast
333 - Facilitating with Fabric, Feeling, and Freedom with Paula Short
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
A Mary Poppins’ bag of glitter, a big beating drum, a lump of clay, and a shiny gold crown. Bringing her wonderful, precious collection of props to the show, is the brilliant Paula Short.
As a personal development psychotherapist, talented actress, and the founder of a 1997 youth centre, facilitation has been a guiding constant in Paula’s life and work. Now as a self-exploration retreat host, she facilitates deep transformation through the expressive arts, helping people to welcome unchartered emotions without shame.
We explore how donning the cloak of the villain in a fictional story can become an embodied breakthrough, why the collective support of the group can be liquid gold, and why Paula has such an issue with tissues.
A special, heartfelt conversation – join us!
Find out about:
- How roleplay, costumes and props can help us to access buried feelings and emotions
- The importance of letting emotions free-flow without interruption, or ‘tidying’ them away
- How Paula create safe containers for self-exploration through play
- Navigating our trauma responses, and why we must learn to trust our own vulnerabilities
- Normalising say ‘no’ – and why doing so gives us autonomy, helps us reconnect to our boundaries, and signals emotional safety to others
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Links:
Watch the video recording of this episode on YouTube.
Connect to Paula Short:
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👉 What happens when being “professional” gets in the way of being human? My new podcast Unprofessionalism explores the rules we’re taught to follow at work, and what happens when we break them. Listen here: https://unprofessionalism.buzzsprout.com/ 👈
What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hapnus, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Paula Short. And we speak about her way to bring expressive art into group therapy and the forces of self-expression, trust, and personal transformation. You may release or she can release with the use of costumes and other artifacts. So stay tuned. And don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find the links to more information, how to reach out to Paula, and how to subscribe to this podcast if you like it. Thank you for listening. Hello, Paula. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Hello Marion. Thank you for having me. What a privilege.
SPEAKER_02I'm very, very excited and very curious about your work. I've heard many great things. Waving fans out there. Thank you. And uh yeah, exploring what there is about costumes and the hard work. And okay. And I always start at the beginning with the same question. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?
SPEAKER_01Uh yes, I do, but I didn't always. So my background is in theatre, and in that context, I would have used director. That would have been the, you know, the lingo. And of course, there is a lot of direction involved in theatre. But as I look at that now, I would definitely see it as facilitation because it's about bringing out the best in your group and your, you know, wanting them to bring their own individual flavor and talents to whatever they're doing, and how a trying to help a group to gel and work together to support each other, to trust each other in a theatre context. So there's a massive amount of facilitation going on in there as well. But it was when I trained as a therapist and then working with groups, particularly in a therapeutic space, that I would use the word facilitation and facilitator.
SPEAKER_02And what a change of mindset I think you need to go from directing where you have where there is kind of a value judgment and a quality judgment to facilitation, especially therapy, where there is no right or wrong, where you have to be totally open-minded in order to create that safe space.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and I think for a long time I didn't see a connection between the two r roles or two arenas. But actually, in the theatre, I would love acting. And I'm a very good actress, actually. And I think it's because I can quite quickly get inside the skin of a character and deeply feel it. So I'm not actually acting, I'm I'm being, I'm feeling some, you know, this character. And I think that's what what my what being a therapist is all about, you know, is about being able to get inside somebody's skin and be with them and feel with them. So actually there's quite a strong link in in terms of my being, anyway, in in those roles. But you're right, as a director, a very different approach.
SPEAKER_02And then I can only imagine that the that the goal is then not to get carried away with it.
SPEAKER_01In a therapeutic space. Yeah. Yeah, although I don't find that a challenge because it's very much about the other, you know, the person who's at the center of this little piece of work, it's their they're the director, if you like, of this piece of work. So within a group context, I'm very, very mindful of letting this person bring what they want and need to bring and what they're ready to bring. And would say to you know, anybody else who's part of this with within a group, that we must all be very, very gentle. It's not that we can't contribute, but that there's that we we acknowledge that it's this person's work. So there might be a no in there, in that perhaps, you know, if we might say, would it be would it be useful to try? Would you like to try it? Or does this sound could I we have to be very comfortable with no, that's not right for me, you know? Boundaries, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's skit. Yeah, and something that doesn't come easy to everyone. I mean, it took me almost 40 years to learn to set boundaries and communicate them and feel them.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So actually, like if I was doing a retreat for a few days quite early on, we'd all practice our no. You know, can we all just say no a few times and would you like to do that? No, I don't want to, and no, and no, and can we say this way and that way? And just find literally physically finding our voice with saying no, and that it's absolutely okay and anytime through these few days, you know, if anybody doesn't want to do something or you know, doesn't feel right, or whatever, absolutely it's welcome. It's not now an issue, it's not a oh, can I say it's wow, great, you said no, brilliant.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and once we it's so funny how much judgment there is around the word no and the and assumptions, because very often we appreciate someone saying no because it clearly states it it makes the yes come out stronger, yeah, and also gives us some direction, and then we can trust that everything we'll do is okay, and if it's not, we'll hear no, and then it's fine as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's a huge like you said, trust that's really a key part of a feeling that with somebody when you know they're being real and honest, and yeah. Yeah, love that.
SPEAKER_02So I find the your journey fascinating, and funny enough, I had quite a few guests on the show who went from theater to facilitation. Oh, how interesting. Yeah, so it seems to be a thing. Yes, and I wonder what what you're bringing from your experience as a director in theater to your work as a facilitator. What have you learned there? Also, about group dynamics and characters.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and uh sort of a related thing is for a long time I wanted to keep them separate. It felt for me like they shouldn't connect. And I think I was worried that theatre work would become too serious, too heavy. And so, yeah, there was a sort of desire to keep them separate. I I need to explore that more as to why that was, but now I I feel like there's this obvious connection between the two, and would celebrate even as they stand separately, it's like this work in the theatre is so good for people's mental health. You know, I I work a lot with with young people in that arena and like to see how it helps them with their mental health, even though that isn't the focus.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean by that? Could you give an example?
SPEAKER_01Well, the the examples are are with what parents have said that this uh this my child might not be alive, but for their youth theatre experiences like wow, you know, this helped somebody through a really different teenager difficult, as we know, and for somebody to feel a sense of belonging in the theater community, to feel a sense of being respected and trusted, to feel like they can be themselves here. And you know, there's so much going on in terms of group dynamics that's sort of interwoven into a theater space that's so good for mental health.
SPEAKER_02And I would like to double-click on what you just said that they can be themselves, because I think there's a big misconception there that if you're in a theatre space, you're playing a role, so you're not yourself.
SPEAKER_01That's really interesting. Yeah, that sounds like a contradiction, doesn't it? So I suppose that's uh again about facilitation, isn't it? Because it's not actually the role piece that we're focusing on now, it's you as a human being and how you are held in this space and how we're working together, and you showing up as your real self is just gorgeous, and we're you know, we're loving that and embracing that, and how to bring that then to a role or whatever character we're playing. So that would be the feedback through through the year. I founded a youth theatre in 1997, so we're coming up to our 30th anniversary, so we have we have even the children now of our previous students, so it's I I think one day we'll have grandchildren of the of students, but that's that's very powerful to look back on and see the impact that it has had on on people's lives. You know, I did I did do a piece of research not long ago on the therapeutic value of theatre for young people, even without overt psychotherapeutic focus, you know. It's like an aside, but super helpful.
SPEAKER_02And I wonder whether it's also has to do with um normalization of emotions, that you can test out how it feels, and oh, I can be angry on stage just to try it out, even if I'm not angry myself, and see how it feels and how I deal with that and how others react. And suddenly it becomes more normal. So it's like a rehearsal that when we get really angry, we know how it feels, we know how we can express it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and the other way around, like that it might the anger might actually be there already, but unaccessed. And I I would use my own example there. I remember as a young person being my parents had divorced, and it was my guidance teacher at school said you must be really angry. I'm no, no, not at all, no, not at all. I don't get angry, I don't feel I didn't feel anger, but give me a role where there's anger, and it was like I could feel it, and I loved it, and I love playing the villain, and wow. So it's like actually an opportunity to process what we might not know how to process in in our giving ourselves permission, basically, yeah. And a space where this can flow freely, yeah. Yeah. So improv work, I think that's so interesting. What people come out with in that without thinking, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, whoa, where did that come from? I can relate to that, yes. And is this something you would then use now in a group context where people might need the permission or the excuse to access emotions?
SPEAKER_01So it's just so interesting bringing. So I think I mentioned before I would bring some costumes, some props to a psychotherapeutic retreat where we're the focus usually self-exploration through expressive arts. That's what I would usually title retreat. So yeah, that it's all about learning and exploring this way through expressive arts, which includes theatre, drama, roleplay. I usually call it role play, because if you if you say drama, it could terrify people, but we usually call it roleplay. Even that could terrify some people. Yes. Um but I would bring some costumes and some props. And what's so interesting now is as I pick up the toy sword, now I I feel something. Something is a bit different. I've got a weapon in my protect myself. What does it feel like to suddenly people are accessing stuff that they may not have been able or not, you know, the different defenses might have got in the way. But now with this sword or with this cape and with this crown, or with, you know, with these things, it's like it just drops, helps drop us down underneath the the cognitive piece that might get in the way sometimes.
SPEAKER_02Fascinating. So it's the artifact, then, and then I think I assume all the assumptions, all all the stories we are telling ourselves around this costume or artifact, or to what extent does this play a role? So, how do we see the king? How what's our relationship with power?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's it's kind of interesting to see how the things get used in different ways. So, for example, like you're saying, like a crown, for some the little crown that I usually take could get used in very, very different ways. It could be on a pillow and it's somebody wants it to be presented to them at the end of their piece of work. It's like a wow moment. For somebody else, it could be in their story, it could be yeah, a put somebody in a position of authority that wasn't nice and wielded that authority in a negative way. Yeah, it's so it's it's what that thing means for this person and how these things, these costumes that are there and available, how could I use or what could I use here to tell my story or to explore this piece of my story that I would like feels like it wants my attention today. So, you know, like so I would usually encourage people to do a piece of self-reflection first of all, what's coming up for me today? What would I like to focus on, and then show them all the things that are here, and is there anything here that would help you? So it's and then then that gets people usually quite excited as they go around and they're touching and feeling different things, and or instruments. I'd have a whole pile of musical instruments there. What would it be like to bang a great big drum at this point or ring a bell, blow a whistle, you know, or would I like somebody else to do that, you know, as I'm walking through this little thing that I'm doing? I'd like somebody to be banging a drum. I get so inspired by how people it's like once you've unlocked the freedom to go there, what comes up then is just fav and how people use things in in a completely unique way. Nobody else could have guessed that, nobody else could have scripted that, come up with that. It's their own piece, and um, it's like a it feels deeply a privilege to be part of such a creative work, you know, it's creative and transformative for the person, and you're they're part of it. Yeah, and it sounds playful. Yes, loads of giggles happen. Sometimes people will even want a piece of music played at the end, so they're you know, they're gonna do this little piece of work and then they want to hear Dias Straits Walk of Life or something, and you never blast that out and all dance about. It's just and and and that's all part of their experience. I suppose that's what we haven't said is that that's this is a whole body experience. This is not just sat one-to-one in therapy. Obviously, I'm a therapist, I think there's great value in sitting one-to-one with a therapist and talking about things, but this is moving, this is feeling, this is giggling, this is crying, this is being with a group, this is a shared experience that's it's unforgettable, yeah, you know, totally unforgettable. Years later, you're gonna remember that, what that felt like to do that, and somebody played your mom, and somebody played, you know, all these characters, it's it's a whole body experience, has a durability way beyond the retreat.
SPEAKER_02I can imagine because it's from what I know how we remember and how we build these synapses and moments, it's through the embodiment, it's through the visual, it's through emotions, and not only the talked word. Yeah. Spoken word. And so I hear the improv theater piece, and I also heard something that almost sounds like constellation work, where if you ask someone else to to play an instrument or to to step into your scene.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So sometimes people will choose to observe, not even be the themselves in their story. They'll ask, I might ask Miriam, could you would you be me play me in this? And I'd like you to be six-year-old me. And could I ask you? So there's this thing happening, and I might want to just stay on the outside, and that and that can be very powerful. You might even feel moved to cry in your robe. You might, and I'm watching you be me. And so that's uh, yes, some some people choose to do that, and it's still equally powerful because they're observing themselves and see what this is like, and oh, you know, and other times people choose to be in it, and they might choose to be them their younger self, they might want to play themselves at age 12 or something, or it might be a very present ex uh exchange. Maybe I'm struggling with my a relationship with my daughter at the moment, and I'd like you to be my daughter, and you know, so it there are no limits to how the group can be can be used.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the way how I imagine that is you almost like Mary Poppins with this bag of tools and methods. I'm like, oh yes, I have this cello and I have this hat and I have constellation work and improv theater and I have therapy. And so that's what's happening in my mind. And then I wonder how do you bring, how do you plan for that? Because it sounds like a a blank canvas that depending who's stepping into this space will bring whatever their issues are that they need to bring. So, how do you create this container where all of this can happen and where also that's maybe a sub-question? Because what I observe is that there's so many meta skills needed, like expressing what it is that you need, expressing your emotions, feeling safe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I think two things, two key things. I think safety is paramount, and how to create the container that you mentioned, and how to create this space in such a way that people feel safe, totally psychologically safe, physically safe, and all the ways that they need to feel safe and held. So there's that piece. And then if we can get that right, then I would hope there's room for absolute freedom. You know, with if this is right, I'm gonna feel free enough to do and go wherever I want to go. And then I hope I have enough of the Mary Poppins bag of goodies that that helps that, you know, that they can play with. So I bring again bring clay, bring paints, bring collage stuff, glitter and sparkles and you know, all sorts of things, so that whatever feels useful to somebody in, and we you of course there are exercises specifically inviting use of all those things, but as the weekend or the days go on, people start pulling from all of those resources.
SPEAKER_02So it's basically creating these small moments of introduction so that the objects don't feel alien, I was like, and to open the space of how they could be used, and then creating yeah, uh familiarity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, familiarity and safety. And and I mean, obviously, there's a lot packaged into how to somebody feel safe, but one of the things is knowing that there's no right and wrong way to do this. You know, that I would hear myself saying that so many times, you can't get this wrong, there's no right or wrong way, and and I think that's probably one of the fears at the beginning or coming into a retreat, especially when they hear people hear it's an expressive art, like I'm not artistic and I'm not creative, and I'm you know, worried that they're not going to be good at this. And so to quite quickly for people to feel that actually, yeah, that's that's true, that there is no right or wrong way, and I love it. When people do something completely outside the box, completely different, or yeah, they they don't just vary it, they do the exact opposite. Love it, love it. Somebody recently painted a picture by painting their face and then pressing their face against a page. I mean, wow. How gorgeous is that. Just you know, I love that when you you know that somebody's really in their process because of how outside of the box they are using this gear, you know. Yeah, that's very beautiful, beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Must be this moment of uh pride to see that you've created the space for the people to to access that and to have the breakthroughs.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if if I would say pride, but it's definitely a strong feeling in me. It's uh like a oof, like just uh you know, I get pride is my just uh pleased for them, excited for them, because you can see how how much they're gaining from it. Yeah. And again, in a if it's a group role play kind of scenario, oh, the rich feeling I get when when you see other participants interacting with somebody and offering the most gorgeous support and and saying things that's like, oh, that's so beautiful. Because now, because their experience is being touched, they're being moved. Some this person is am I talking too fast? No, it's fantastic. Somebody's their piece of work, they're doing something that's really powerful for them, or sharing something deeply emotive for them, and it's somebody else in the group who is crying, and it's somebody else in the group who's outraged on their behalf, and now they're this experience that they've been carrying alone for maybe their whole life or for decades, and it's being witnessed by others, and uh the others are moved, and it's like the you you couldn't you can't buy that, you can't, you know. That's that's why group work is I I love it so much, is because for this one person who maybe has tried to share this and has been met with disbelief or judgment or minimization is now being held and honored and validated by these people that maybe they only met this morning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, to refine this way of self-expression. Um and yeah, I've I'm fascinated. I cannot I can see all of this uh just happening and um and I've different curiosities on different levels. One you already mentioned the the role of the group as opposed to the individual. So the the role of being witnessed and what does it what does it mean for the healing process? So what does it do inside of a human being when we are being witnessed, expressing something that maybe we felt shameful about or or too sad or too angry to to express it earlier?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's like it's like gold, you know, liquid gold, it's just incredible because somebody could be carrying, I'm too much, I'm too broken, I'm too shameful, I'm too something, or this doesn't matter, or you know, all sorts of beliefs that that they're carrying inside. Of course, it's been absorbed from somewhere, but they're carrying it. And even I would say, even in one-to-one therapy, there can be a layer of, yeah, but my therapist's just being nice. Therapist just, you know, well, she's my therapist, and people can sort of minimize it a little bit, what they're receiving from their therapist. And yeah, and then suddenly there's this people group of just normal people. You know, they're not therapists, they're just normal people, very much an inverted commas there, and they get it, and they they are with me in this, and they feel it, and they care, and they're supportive, and so massive shifts internally come with that. That shame. I mean, you mentioned shame. Shame is like one of those pieces that's so tricky to access and so tricky to feel a shift in in it. And that would be what I see happen in a group context because it's not just my therapist being nice. Yeah, I can see that.
SPEAKER_02And I would love to hear what becomes possible through that experience. So one day step out, and before that, maybe I can I can see the importance of being trained as a therapist in that. And even the the piece of you being trained as a theater director. What are maybe the risks or what happens below the surface? What what are what is the hard work that you are doing that make it feel so easy then for the participants that they're like, oh, this was magical. She didn't do much. And this transformation.
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. I suppose, well, if loads of things are going on in my head, that piece around saying no uh at the beginning is really important. And when the group are offering suggestions or offering a hug or you know, whatever it might be, how the group are interacting, I would say 97, 98% of the time, that's just all gorgeous and just wow, fabulous. It's like they knew in that moment it was the right moment to say this, or but occasionally, occasionally, it's like somebody offers something or pulls something in a particular direction that it's not this person now who's in charge of this, it's like somebody else is pulling and dragging a little bit this way. Then I might just intervene. And I think what I would instinctively do is offer the opposite.
SPEAKER_02You know, so when you say it's not that person, do you mean it's part of the person? It's like a shadow, or it's or it's really a different person who's suggesting a different person within the group.
SPEAKER_01So maybe this is Miriam, Miriam's the focus for this piece of work. This is your story, it's something you're exploring. And Dolores over here says, Hey, what about your, you know, does what about if your dad did this and that? And maybe they're pulling it and dragging your story in a direction that you haven't led. You know, this is not coming from you. And yeah, so so that might be part of my role to say, or or maybe that does a complete opposite. Miriam, what do you think? You know, where well what do you think? Because so I would be balancing a little bit if I feel like the somebody in the group is just pulling something. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So for me, what I it sounds like is um on the one hand, creating the space, the container for the group, and then protecting the individual's space whenever it's their moment. Yes. And because there are some individuals who struggle to be in the center of attention and to protect their own space, and there are others who need more space or desire more space. So there is this tension where then I think for a non-skilled facilitator or therapist, this can very quickly then derive in a situation where the dominant participants are taking over. And the people pleasers are just, oh, that's fine.
SPEAKER_01I'm never angry. Yes, yes, that's okay. And if somebody makes a suggestion, oh yeah, okay, we'll do that. Yeah, somebody who's very easily led might just go, oh yeah, yeah, that's okay. And is it really theirs? Is it where they want and feel? And you know, what on the outside might not look like very much is happening. You know, this isn't a very exciting piece. There's nothing very, you know, but actually it's huge for them. It's huge. Uh, you know, this little what looks like a little piece for them could be massive.
SPEAKER_02And I noticed that I'm getting goosebumps. Um, because what I imagine what can happen is this massive breakthrough or breakdown, where suddenly someone notices that for their entire life they have followed other people's desires and suggestions instead of taking time to think of what it is that they need themselves. Yeah. And then yeah, they I what I associate is breakdowns, grieving, all of that. How do you create then space for these individual trajectories? There are potentially a lot of different emotions coming up in a group. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01But you have to all integrate or leave or yeah, so the processing of that, so I'd have lots of opportunities woven through a day for journaling, which I think is great for people to be tracking what's coming up for them. Because even if even when you're not the focus of a piece of work, if you are a participant in it, if I'm asked to play the villain, for example, in somebody else's piece, what's that bringing up for me? What's it like to shout? What's it like to, you know, where's that taking me and my story, even though I'm not the focus right now? So I'd be encouraging people to keep tracking that all the time. So even when you're not the focus, you're in process the whole time, the whole day. So, and yes, as a facilitator, you're mindful of that. And you can see when somebody is being, you know, their story is being triggered from this other person's story. And that's why it's again very important that everybody can say no. If I'd asked you to be the villain in my story, and I want you to shout and roar for a bit, that you could absolutely say no, I I don't feel comfortable doing that, you know. That's okay. And we move to somebody else. And I, as a facilitator, I'm uh let people know I'm always happy to play the villain, just so that they know there is somebody for that role, if there's a villain in their story. But yeah, to answer your question, there can be massive material and emotions being accessed by people constantly through the day, and obviously abuse and trauma comes up, grief and loss comes up. I think my very first retreat that I facilitated was for a group of womb twin survivors. I don't know if you're familiar with that. So people like myself, somebody who was a twin in the womb, and my twin didn't make it. Yeah, so that's you know, that's pre-verbal, that's uh trauma and grief at a cellular level. So um I forgot where I was going with with that as an example. Uh grief work, depth yeah, the depth of grief grief, the depth of trauma work that can come up in this space, it is huge, and and and you do have to be mindful of the size of the group. I would have a maximum of 12 in a group because there's so this there's so much can come up, and and it's big stuff. It's typically, you know, people typically go to very painful places, and uh sounds all very heavy. It also go takes people to celebrate places, you know, great joy and relief and release, and you know, there's but intense emotions throughout the time. I don't know if I've answered your question, but um yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I I would you would this be now something that you do that there always a context or a specific group you invite to the space so that you can limit the diversity of experiences that you're inviting?
SPEAKER_01It's definitely something that I have considered and do consider from time to time, like whether to make it specifically for womb train survivors or for loss or for obese survivors or something. But I haven't done that. Generally, they're open to all, and it's just so interesting then that there'll be a few people with a very shared experience and a few other people with something else. But of course, the human emotions underneath are shared, whatever the individual experience. So there's everybody has loss in their life, everybody has fear, everybody you know, so you that connection is is there, even if the specific circumstances seem very different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I can even imagine that there it can be a trap if everyone is has apparently a similar experience. Then we are too fast, we're thinking, oh, they are like us. Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Although that's the hurt and and the emotions and the trauma is different for everyone. And if we have more distance, we don't expect to relate. Yeah and then I'm more open to other experiences.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, you put that so nicely. As trainee therapists, it's some something that I would, as a tutor with a college, I was with a college hour, it's something for trainee therapy therapists to explore. And often they're questioning, do I have to have had the same experiences as clients to work with them? You know? And it's a great discussion that comes from it because exactly as you said, it could get in the way. It could absolutely get in the way because I'm making assumptions now about your experience. And you know, even if I don't verbalize it quickly in my head, I've gone, oh yeah, yeah, I know now.
SPEAKER_02Filling in the blanks. Yeah, which is absolutely uncont it's an unconscious bias, yeah often.
SPEAKER_01But not helpful, really not helpful. Yeah. So we it we remain more curious, more open, and ready to try and understand what somebody else's experience is.
SPEAKER_02So how do you prepare the participants for the day after? Because it sounds like big healing work that might shift someone's behavior quite a lot. And then you step out to the real world, air quotes, and people know you how you have been, and now you might be different, and maybe you want to practice your new being.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's interesting. I I think I would be more mindful of um just the time needed for that absorption of what somebody has experienced. So through the workshop days themselves, they finish at five, we have an evening meal at six, you know, finished half six, seven o'clock. I would encourage people to use their evenings for quiet time, you know, journaling, walking. We have we're in West of Ireland, so there's lots of gorgeous places to take a walk. And so there's digesting through the evening. And then I would also encourage people in my booking info, like if if at all possible, have a quiet day the day after. Because I think it's needed just for, yeah, like again, integration of whatever's happened, that you're not going into work nine o'clock the next morning. For me as well, that's my learning curve, been my learning curve that I used to, you know, clients the next morning after, and then whoo! This is this is too much, you know. And so I give that to myself now as well, a day after for because it's it's full on. It's yeah, and and I'm I'm changed. I'm being changed, I'm part of this experience, I'm learning and growing. So I need time for processing what what it was like for me. So I think with and the journaling through the time as well. So all of those things are helping people be more comfortable with their own, with what they've explored and uncovered themselves before they're heading back into the day job. And I don't know that anybody would be going into their life quite as clear as you described it there, like, oh, I want to try this new thing. No, I don't think it's quite like that. I think it's because it's very internal, it's like something is shifting. I am a bit different in myself, something has changed in here that I'm just bringing with me as opposed to, oh, I want to try something different. So more embodied than cognitive than the head. I think so, yeah. So it but I do think the the space afterwards is really important if people can give them themselves that. Not everybody can, because they've taken time off of work, you know, they've carved out just the three days, let's say, for a retreat, and they are back into family and whatever.
SPEAKER_02I think I I somehow asked the question before, but I want to reiterate what are the risks in doing this work? Because I can imagine someone might listen to that and be like, oh, I try that. Let me bring some costumes and let me open the people. What are the risks involved in such a process?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When you say try that, you mean try it in the re in the space? Yeah. Okay. So I think we we haven't really talked about like how to set up the safety. The safe this if I get the safety piece right, I think those risks are dramatically reduced. So of course, confidentiality is a key part of making it safe. We have a discussion about that, we talk about that, concerns about that, you know, so it's aired, even though somebody recently said to me, I never really believe it at the beginning, you know, because it's like people are you, I don't know these people, and they're saying, Oh yeah, this is confidential. How do I know whether they mean that? How do I know? But it's aired. It's been said, so it's going in somewhere, even if I don't trust it yet, you know.
SPEAKER_02And also just to acknowledge that, okay, we might not trust it yet, but at least we'll find out. We need these people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like and now, once then somebody starts using that space and being a little bit vulnerable, now I can maybe trust it a little bit more because I didn't know her before. And she said she's going to keep it confidential. She's actually sharing something now quite vulnerable. Okay, so maybe she maybe I can trust it. So there's confidentiality. The piece we mentioned earlier about that you can't get it, there's no right or wrongs in this. That's also part of somebody starting to feel safe. You know, there's no expectation, there's no no have-to's, your no is welcome, everything's an invitation, all of that helps create safety. Um, I don't know if I said this already about all emotions being welcome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So your anger is welcome, your tears are welcome, your giggles are welcome. You know, it's and again, these are just words, but once somebody sees that that's a that is being that is real, somebody's crying and and it's okay.
SPEAKER_02And what I imagine is what you might not even see yourself, is your reaction to all of that. So to if there are tears, that you can hold the space for these tears and not get carried away or judging it. Because if you would start even unconsciously judging, the group would sense it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I think your work as a therapist that is your inner work but not visible to anyone, yeah, might also contribute. Because if you had if you still had issues with anger and someone would suddenly freely express their anger, yeah, might trigger something in you.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah. So I've had the group would pick up work. Yes, that it is that it's genuinely welcome. Yeah. It's like celebrated actually. It's so easy to say all emotions are welcome. But to actually live it, feel it. Yeah. There's this thing I talk about sometimes, issues with tissues. And it's it's again right at the beginning, we talk about issues with tissues, and you can see people like really confused. What does that mean? It's because when somebody cries, typically somebody, you know, hands them the box of tissues and and coming from a very good place, of course, but for the person, it can feel like stop crying now, you know, mop it all up. We, you know, that's enough now. Stop that. We we don't really want that. That's the that's how it could feel for them. So we have boxes of tissues, of course, everywhere, very accessible, but the Discussion is let the person, if they're reaching for a tissue, of course, help them reach the box, but not to be offering them because of the message that it might give. So, and it sounds such a funny thing to talk about issues with tissues, but it is exactly as you're saying, that you're we're really demonstrating that it's welcome and it's not something to be fixed. We haven't got to fix the tears and we haven't got to fix the anger. It's like brilliant, it's wonderful. And and as people see that, how those emotions are welcomed and absolutely okay, not just okay, but celebrated. Now they're feeling they can trust that and they can use it themselves, and that that it's gonna be okay to be who they are and access.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And what I find so fascinating, almost magic in these group contexts, is that whoever is the first one, the first courageous one, breaking the silence, maybe getting a little bit more vulnerable or showing their real emotions, does something to the group. Absolutely. And then sudden and they create actually the the safety because it's something that you cannot you can invite to, but you cannot do for them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02They have to do the heavy lifting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's so true. And that one person who does sort of, as you say, be be vulnerable first, it's so honored by the group. And that that's what's just fabulous. Is some that almost I I can't think of a time when that isn't referenced later in a in a day that somebody says, I'm so thankful that Miriam cried in a writer something, thank you so much for that. And you were so brave, and you were so and so this one person is actually literally being celebrated for for their vulnerability. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's like they they they become on the catalyst for so much more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And do you think it's because it seems so difficult in that moment, and so we are fearful of going first. Do you think it's the fear of being judged and witnessed, or is it the fear of admitting us towards ourselves that is usually holding us back?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Could be either, could be both, probably elements of both. But create fear of I I in my experience, people feel safe quite quickly. And I I don't I don't know all the factors that make that happen. I think there's lots of physical, you know, the physical space, lots of, lots of factors, but people do seem to feel safe quite quickly. And then to see how that's held by a group, and nobody's walked out, nobody's, you know, outraged, nobody's like, oh my goodness, I've got a, you know, this person's too much for me, to see how it actually just pulls people closer and connected, people who've never met each other before. And typically by lunchtime, it's like they're oof, yeah. Six o'clock. So quite quickly we're getting past that fear of will I be judged or I be too much. But yeah, the layers, the internal layers as to whether how to admit that to myself, that's much more complicated. I think that's why one of the reasons why I love group work and creative methods, because you're getting past the the thinking parts and the layers up here, and suddenly you're feeling something, you know, it's like a little fast track than without the cognitive.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And I can almost imagine how if the crown came up or the cape, and then coming back home and having a little image or a little crown myself to kind of just as a reminder.
SPEAKER_01That's so nice you're saying that. Yeah. I have l loads of loads and loads of gear that I take. Uh we have a studio at home with tens of thousands of costumes and you know, thousands and thousands of props. So I can take a whole pile of things and I do. And some of it's deeply precious, some of it isn't even mine. So, for example, I take my husband's teddy bear that's like 52 years old, um, my own teddy bear. So there's some things that are very precious, and I and I wouldn't part with. But there's lots of things there that if it's become a treasure for somebody through those few days, and you can see that happens sometimes, you know, this this little thing, a shell, this little stone, this little teddy bear, that's become a precious piece of their process. They've used it through a piece of work, it's really lovely to let them take care.
SPEAKER_02I didn't even think of that. I was more thinking of a representation or something like that. Um as a nudge. As a nudge, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And of course, they're taking their pieces of clay home and their uh pieces of artwork home. So they yeah, they usually go go with a few. How long are your retreats? Three days. Three days, yeah. So and the plan uh a very loose overview of it. And I would say this to people, it's very, very fluid, but typically first day is the present. So where am I at? What's coming up for me today, what wants my attention today, you know, all of that is the general focus, day one, day two is the past. What to revisit, what uh like rewriting the ending of a story or something in the past. Well, and the past it could include yesterday, of course, you know, so it doesn't have to be childhood, but and then the third day is the future. So what am I taking with me? What are my resources? What's so it's preparing people for going back to the to the real world? It's very loose because of course the past and the present come into all of uh the past and the future and the present come into all of the days, but it it helps give a little bit of again, safety really, that people are hearing that on day one, that we're just looking at what's here in the present, and you know, that's feels kind of safe. And then second day, the invitation to go into some older material if they want to, and knowing that day three, we're gonna be thinking about how we move forward with with all of this. So even that framework gives a little bit of uh structure and safety.
SPEAKER_02It's beautiful, and I um I recorded an episode about um using psychedelics and plant medicine uh in workshops and retreats. And what I'm now thinking of is uh how our brain can produce all of these substances itself that we don't necessarily need the mushrooms or the LSD to access all of that and the playfulness, but sometimes maybe just the costume.
SPEAKER_01That's so interesting you said that because somebody has compared my retreats to the closest thing to a psychedelic experience without without a substance.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, that that's what I heard from your explanation. And I think that's also why I made the assumption of these breakthrough experiences that you then take home that you're a different person, because it's yeah, um yeah. So I stopped drinking alcohol in January, and since then I'm I'm just looking around and um curious of how the role of alcohol that plays in society and also for numbing. And so I'm curious. Do you serve alcohol during your retreats? That's really good question.
SPEAKER_01I don't, and um the reason for it is because I don't know if this is true everywhere in the world, but in Ireland there's quite a history with um alcohol misuse, um, a history and a present. So for a lot of participants, alcohol has been a negative part of their childhood experience. I do bring as a prop, I bring an empty bottle and it gets used a lot, you know, it gets used a lot. If people want to enact a story from their childhood, maybe there was an alcoholic father, my own father was an alcoholic, um, they might, you know, just use that bottle, it be it becomes a a symbol of a whole package of their story. So for me then to serve alcohol at lunch or at dinner, and I'm uh not wanting to condemn alcohol at all, but the way it can still be joked about, and you know, people can joke about when you break it down, they're actually joking about the misuse of alcohol. This seems like the a very inappropriate environment for that to happen. So it's just easier for me to not not have that.
SPEAKER_02I would have assumed that and would be surprised if your answer would have been different, and I'm glad. Um because I I haven't even thought of the the relationship and the potential trauma related to it, but also the how easy it is to then tuck it away, drink it away, to have excuses to say something, um, or how to digest all the all the emotions, because I think many of me included, I've been socialized to oh big emotions, oh have a drink, yeah, have a second one, and then everything is fine again. And after such a a day of hard work and being raw and vulnerable, and then kind of yeah, messing up with all the beautiful work you've done in your brain of rewiring. Actually be uh petty.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that that's part of the process, the c the ongoing process of living with the difficult and facing and shining, shining lights on what's in there and what we're carrying. And yeah, it's not easy work, but it's it's beautiful work, it's illuminating, it's growthful, it's it's great, but it's not easy. So, yes, I can see how somebody might just, you know, a glass of wine would just soften that all out, but you would be minimizing the growth that can come from it. Yeah, so so for two two major reasons, it's not ideal.
SPEAKER_02Do you or would you work with teams or with groups who know each other already? And if so, what's the difference?
SPEAKER_01Yes, so sometimes if a group are in a training together, maybe training to be therapists, training to be cranial psychotherapists or something, you know, they they're looking for um an experience like this that's growthful but also integrative as a as a group. I think it's I I I I don't know how to compare them really. In some ways, there's an advantage that they know each other already. So they, you know, they're not coming into a group of strangers. And at the same time, the flip side of that could be could be useful that coming into a group of strangers, nobody knows who I am, I can just be myself. So there's pros and cons, but I I don't think I don't think it makes a massive difference because I would still do exactly the same things around safety at the beginning and the container for the work. Yeah. I suppose if that group coming in, if there were people within that group coming in who have an existing conflict or an underlying issue that I'm not aware of, I haven't, I'm not aware that that has happened. But I'm thinking about it now and thinking that potentially could interrupt their experience of it and feeling safe in it. Don't I don't know that that has happened.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And then I can see that I can imagine the trained therapists coming in. They're also they're wearing two hands, so they're coming in as participants doing their own work, but also looking at the process from a meta-level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That's a that is a real challenge, I think, for trainee therapists. Even in the one-to-one therapy, sometimes you hear a trainee therapist like, I want to try CBT and I want to try psychodynamic and I want to try gestell therapy. And they're going to different therapists to see how that therapist works. It's like that's not therapy. You're not in therapy if you're just sat there thinking about how this person is working. Now you're not having your own, you know, you're not having your own process. So equally, in this, you know, in a retreat environment, I would be, I would be disappointed if somebody stayed in that very heady place where they're observing. Yeah, it can can be a protection. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02I'm not part of that. I'm just here to observe.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm just learning how to do this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I would be disappointed if that if that happened, you know, that they didn't feel like like I would love to do one of my retreats. I would be so excited to go into that space and just feel like complain, you know, all of this stuff and be held and and trust that the group is held. You know, for for when I've attended different things, sometimes I haven't felt safe enough to be my full self because I'm I think I might be too much for the facilitator. And I'm also it it's if I'm too much for the facilitator, it who's who's minding the group. You know, so there's all these layers going on. I would really hope that people coming into my space feel absolutely that they want to use this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's that's indeed the the flip side if we know what we're doing in these kinds of spaces and then attending other retreats, seeing the small glitches of not feeling safe of or where promise is not held strongly. Um I've experienced that. And then it's very difficult to actually come back and to fully lean in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. For example, if nobody's mentioned confidentiality, it hasn't even been mentioned. Because uh maybe it's because there's an assumption, of course it's confidential, but it hasn't been mentioned, it hasn't been made explicit. Our brain knows that our brain is like is you know, it's is it? Is it or what time are the breaks gonna be, or is anybody gonna walk through with tea and coffee at some time, or you know, if a hotel or something in a corporate setting, you do how how do we know this is safe? Like it does need to be said out loud that what what all these little practical boundaries are, and we feel it. We feel okay, somebody's got this, somebody's minding me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I thought of that, and yeah, because otherwise it will at some point pop up and then just occupy our brains.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Or hold back the tears because what if someone steps in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Even thing even silly things like where are the bathrooms? You know, like knowing where they are, and that that's been explained, and we all know it's like our body is okay, that's fine. I can I can relax. Oh, there's my some water there, and all of these little things, they're all part of knowing that somebody's got got us, somebody's got us and the group. Yeah, it's almost like Maslov.
SPEAKER_02Take care of the basic needs so that we can attune to the higher needs.
SPEAKER_01Definitely. Yeah, if you don't, if you don't know those basic things are covered, why on earth would you trust that you can access your shame? Yeah. So very important.
SPEAKER_02What remains your facilitation challenge?
SPEAKER_01Ugh, my oldest wounds remain my facilitation challenge, you know. So um I think we touched on it a little bit earlier. Yes, I'm always talking about anger, and my my childhood wounds are around not wanting to uh be disliked, not wanting to make a mistake, not wanting to get it wrong. And you know, those those fear fears around that take me to a very vulnerable, very, very vulnerable place. I'm aware of it, I'm working with it. 56 years working with it, and I have I I I feel like I'm aware enough to manage it, but I'm aware it's still, it's still there, it's probably gonna be there always. So that's my facilitation challenge. I know I'm working with it well well enough because, for example, at a recent retreat some after an exercise, somebody said, Oh, I think there was a wasted opportunity there. And my stomach does a whoo, you know, a little somersault of anxiety. Um however, I'm also at the same time just celebrating that she can say that. Isn't that just wonderful? That she feels safe enough to express herself, and it was welcomed, and there was this gorgeous discussion then within the group and really rich learning. She she loved the exercise actually, and there was this other piece that she felt we could have added into it, and brilliant, but I'm aware of my own vulnerability in it, you know. That's I I need to keep minding that so that people can bring their anger or their frustration or their whatever, and even if it's with me, that I can be okay with that, you know.
SPEAKER_02I love that how you also show that um it's this embodied experience that someone says something and then you feel this. I assume the not good enough kind of voice. No, for me it's like down in my belly. Yeah, and then heart. You feel it. And then what do you do? How do you self-regulate? Hmm. It's your strategy.
SPEAKER_01Breath, I guess. Breath quite quickly. Um, deep abdominal breath. My brain then is getting a message that I'm safe, I'm okay, I'm not in trouble, I'm not gonna be hit, I'm not, you know, there's uh I think the breath is really important. If we're taking an abdominal breath, our brain is getting a clear signal that we're not being chased by a lion, we're not, we're not under threat. So pushing the belly muscles out, deep breath down, and our brain's gone, okay, we're we're we're safe, everything else. So it's it helps my whole system just sort of re-re-regulate. And then the cognitive part of, of course, what's the the challenge for this person who's saying this thing, and this lady you could see she was a lot was going on for her. So of course, this is about her and what's she feeling, and what's you know, what's happening with the breath from myself, my two feet on the floor, um, in that moment. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then just pausing and letting it unfold without acting, reacting, or saying anything.
SPEAKER_01And and actually almost always offering, you know, if if somebody is saying something that's clearly difficult for them, just acknowledging that. And and that's again demonstrating that it's all welcome. You know, so quite quickly, oh, that's sounds like this is a really tricky thing for you to say. So I'm so glad that you you have said it and you've brought that in, you that the response to it isn't my reaction of, oh, oh, you know, there isn't a panic here. It's actually wonderful that you're bringing that.
SPEAKER_02Because it what I hear is that very often their strong response that triggers our kind of inner child or trauma response is mostly about them. So they're react they're seeing something that is important, and so they're expressing it in a way that it triggers us, but it's actually about them.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And by acknowledging their experience, we also calm down ourselves because it is not about us.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah, I'm not under attack. This is not me, four-year-old me. This is yeah. I just listening to your podcast. It was about last week. Yeah, with the inner child. Yeah, I thought that was so interesting. And how sad it would be if at a retreat of self-exploration, if somebody accessed something that was so difficult for them and they said it, and then the facilitator is reactive to it. You know, that would be sad to say the least. So definitely I have to breathe, and yeah, this is about them and their process.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it would show that it's not safe to say it.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah. And it needs to be safe. Yeah, everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think it's for me, that's my absolute obsession, the kind of the inner worker facilitators, and sometimes have the impression that it's kind of tucked away as oh, that's woo-woo, that's the spiritual stuff. But yeah, what you what you also just described, it's so we can damage the psychological safety of the group. It's just one reaction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, so important. Yeah, so every every ounce of work that we've done on ourselves is what we're bringing to to a sp a space.
SPEAKER_02What would be your advice to your younger self?
SPEAKER_01I would tell her she's enough just to be herself and that's enough. That would be that's still my challenge to believe. I believe it sometimes and feel it sometimes. Yeah, believe believe it. I believe it up here, but to believe it down in my heart and feel it is hard sometimes. But I do think the best work happens, the more in touch I am with being okay with who I am. And that includes being okay with my weaknesses and my vulnerabilities and my shame and my anger and you know, all of that. Like the more I can be okay with that in myself, the more okay I'm gonna be with other people's, you know, this then they're gonna feel that. They're gonna feel that it's it's okay. It's not that we're perfect or that we've got to be perfect, it's actually that we're enough just as we are.
SPEAKER_02And funny enough, nobody wants us to be perfect because it puts the other people at unease.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So unrelatable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting that that actually when somebody shows their vulnerability. Somebody was saying that to me recently, actually, and I don't I don't quite know how I do that, but apparently I show my vulnerability in a group. And it's not that I'm going in with my story or, you know, let me tell you about my stuff. I'm definitely not using it as a space I process, but that I do somehow show my vulnerability, and I think that is a is a strength. It's a to the group that I'm not I'm not here as the I'm all sorted person, I'm here as a another human being, and and I'm enough, and you are too, you know. So that's where we're meeting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the process of normalizing what's going on. And it's interesting, I I still find it fascinating. How do we sense the vulnerability of someone? How do we know someone is vulnerable if they are not making it explicit or as you say, sharing a story? What is it that makes other people trust us because they can sense that we are dealing with vulnerability?
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that we're being real.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, I don't know fully. And maybe that is actually the the vulnerability, the being real. Because if we if we're just ourselves without masking it up, and it is vulnerable because then if we get criticized, we cannot find excuses.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're not hiding behind a persona or role. Did we talk about costumes today? I don't know if we did, like putting layers on and hiding and you know, all of that. We did a little bit.
SPEAKER_02But um, yeah, that was What is it that you wanted to say or share about the costumes that we haven't?
SPEAKER_01Um just when I was just as you said there about masking and you know, the irony that actually that is what we might use in the retreat, you know, mask literally a mask or a cape or something. But I think it allows people when they're using these things, it's it's like they cannot be their layered self, they're not being their who they present on the outside. It's like they're pres they're they're accessing something deeper. There's some there's some little paradox in there because I'm hiding now, you know. I I I'm a little bit hidden or I'm a little bit cloaked, and I can be tap into something else in myself.
SPEAKER_02Hiding from observation, it's like a little child closing their eyes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, because it's not really me, it's the thing, or even though it is really them, it's like really getting down deep into stuff, but it's like I'm not having to present, yeah, I'm hidden from or I'm masking over who I who I like to present. And if if if this is how I present myself and I have to control that now, I can with this, maybe I can actually access something else because I'm because it's not really me. Oh there's an interesting paradox.
SPEAKER_02And when I see you and you're expressing there's a lot of hiding the face, does the face have a particular role?
SPEAKER_01Well, the face is what we look at, isn't it? It's like it's it's like the window in the eyes or the window into who we are. So yeah, when people can feel like they I don't know, I don't know quite what's happening there, but that you're not gonna you're not gonna judge me for it because it's because it's else, you know, you can't you can't really see it. Um these gestures don't work on a podcast, do they? And an audio.
SPEAKER_02Oops. Yeah, yeah, hiding your eyes. And it's fascinating because it must be something deeply rooted in the human brain that if we hide our face behind, if we cannot see them, they cannot see us.
SPEAKER_01So if they don't see the face, then yeah, but it's it's giving us freedom to go somewhere, which is so necessary and so gorgeous that people can actually access it and go there, but with without being recipes, it's still all to do with judgment, isn't it? Judgment of ourselves and fear of judgment of others. But if you can't really see me.
SPEAKER_02And I'm what I'm the image that comes to my mind is um as a child, I love to build these kind of protected, how do you call that? Like a den, was it? Yeah, where you can hide and or putting it even a tent in the in the living room. And then what would happen in the tent, although everyone can hear it and it's totally exposed, but it has some kind of protection. And things that would happen inside of there would be kind of not really real.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you're you the freedom to access something that maybe you wouldn't if everybody's just looking on at you, but you could do you know, just kind of more magical or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, the the impact of context, the context we're creating through the space around the costumes, the telling our brain that this is a different reality. We can experiment, it's safe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And once I feel like I have this cloak on that somehow I can do something a bit different, or back to the sword in my hand, that just suddenly it all feels very different, and and that there is something just magical in that that you that you might access something that would take decades of one-to-one therapy to access, and you've just suddenly got it because you've got the sword in your hand, or you've got the graduate capal and you're you're the judge in this situation, justice, and that's something that happens at retreat to like court cases are held, justice is carried out in a situation that's like wow, the feeling that that gives somebody.
SPEAKER_02Um just uh I just wanted to make sure that we had said something about the power of the costumes and layers and fabric and yeah, you mentioned the the sword and the crown earlier, and um and what it sounds like, and maybe that's also why it's um it might be so connected in terms of experience to a psychedelic experience, that it helps our brain to close open loops when we play them out, and our brain will think that oh, that's reality. So the court case we've never had, the moment we could never defend ourselves, and now we're there in front of others, they witness us, and finally our brain can come to peace because it's real, yeah.
SPEAKER_01This you know, the the play acting of it, it's it's a real experience right now that I'm feeling, that I'm saying, that people are with me, that I'm so it although it seems like it's role play and it's pretend, it's the the experience is real, it is embodied, and something shifts internally that you have felt that um experience. Yeah, it's good. Fascinating.
SPEAKER_02Our time is gone. Yeah, thank you so much, Paula. I will put the links to how to find you and your work and the retreats in the show notes so that the listeners can access it and find you.
SPEAKER_01Maybe you'll come Monday.
SPEAKER_02I'm I am intrigued. I'll be the first to visit your website.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end. I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for, and I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world. I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve. And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us visit workshops.org slash support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free. Thank you so much. I hope to be in your ears next week.
