Captain Marvel, Huawei, the Catholic Church, and Boeing are all in the news for basically the same thing, but a little bit different. What am I talking about?
In this week’s episode we delve a bit deeper into reputation management, online trolls and identity dissociation to work out how these brands are going to dig their way out of their current troubles.
Plus, what is a nerd space and how is privilege like bad breath?
For everything you need to know about marketing, culture and the world of business, The Lab at Deakin is your go-to podcast.
Captain Marvel, Huawei, the Catholic Church, and Boeing are all in the news for basically the same thing, but a little bit different. What am I talking about?
In this week’s episode we delve a bit deeper into reputation management, online trolls and identity dissociation to work out how these brands are going to dig their way out of their current troubles.
Plus, what is a nerd space and how is privilege like bad breath?
For everything you need to know about marketing, culture and the world of business, The Lab at Deakin is your go-to podcast.
Wow.
Speaker 2:Captain novel. Why, why the Catholic church and Boeing are all in the news for basically the same thing. Battle a little bit different. What am I talking about? Well, in this week's episode of listen to this, we delve deeper into reputation management, online trolls and identity dissociation to work out how these brands are going to dig their way out of their current troubles. Plus what is a nerd space and how is privilege like bad breath, those questions and more up for discussion this week. This is your guide to marketing and the world of business. My name is Paul Harrison and you should listen to this.
Speaker 3:[inaudible].
Speaker 2:Hello. Welcome to the first edition of listen to this, the deacon university marketing department podcast. And welcome to all of the students in the MBA program and anyone else who's listening and what we're going to be doing is talking about just marketing stuff. And that's why we want you to listen to this. And we're really lucky today because we have a superstar, um, in the, in the room with me chatting. Um, it's a Virginia Webber, uh, genie as she likes to be called. She sits in the office next to me, tinny is from Canada. She's from the university of Alberta, but she joined deacon university. Lucky us in June, 2018 she's one of the lecturers in marketing. What's the unit that you teach at the moment? Yes. Units in marketing. Ah, integrated marketing communications. That's right. And she tells me she's a superhero media nerds. So she's the kind of person that you actually want to be your friend because she can tell you what's going on. And um, so Jenny, tell me what's been going on in your world of marketing these last couple of weeks
Speaker 1:in my world of marketing, well, one of the things that really caught my eye recently, because I'm a superhero nerd, is this whole situation happening around the captain Marvel movie.
Speaker 2:So tell me, tell me the whole thing. The situation. Yeah,
Speaker 1:the whole thing. The situation. So this is Marvel's first female superhero lead. So Brie Larson is acting as captain Marvel, first time they have a female in the lead. And what has happened is the website rotten tomatoes is a, you know, it's a website that I agree it's critics reviews as well as audience reviews. And before slash within hours of the movie being released, there were 54,000 reviews on the website, on rotten tomatoes from the audience.
Speaker 2:So people who'd seen the film or people who speculated that they'd seen the film.
Speaker 1:So this was predominantly the website discovered people who had not seen the film as a comparison. The movie infinity war has been out for about a year now and only has 53,000 audience reviews. And it's one of the most reviewed films of all time. So predominantly, wow. This was online trolls as they're called, who were trying to damage the reputation of captain Marvel or online trolls. Are
Speaker 2:they, are they people who, uh, is it like bots or are they real people?
Speaker 1:So it can be a combination of each. There are real people behind this. And one of the quickest ways for these people to, you know, get what they're looking to do is for them to write really quick scripts, really quick bots, which will go and rate this movie for them. Maybe with a little bit of jibberish are the same words repeated, but it can also just be real people who,
Speaker 2:well I just have no time, who haven't wanted too much time on much time on their hands. Right.
Speaker 1:Um, it's not actually that difficult on the internet when something goes viral to get 50,000 people invested in it. Wow. So they were, they were decreasing the, the overall score of Katherine Marvel and the website, rotten tomatoes realized this is an issue and they actually scrubbed 50,000 reviews off and made it so that for no movie on their websites can you have people rating a movie before it's released date? So they,
Speaker 2:this is, this is really interesting cause it reminds me a little bit of the whole tumbler thing, but a couple of months ago with, you know, that they kind of basically anything with skinny in it or something like that, that they just completely banned. Yes. Anything adult adult. Yeah. And like tumbler was this site, not, not just for adult stuff, but for you know, weird groups of people, interesting groups of people to kind of have their space. And it's, it sounds like a very similar thing. It's like basically we're going to just put a rule now because I think this is the other thing with the internet is that it's grappling with these issues now that it's this big kind of, you know, everybody's welcome and the internet for everybody. But then they realized that there are ramifications when you kind of have these huge open kind of way of doing things.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And Tumblr took a bit of a scorched earth policy. They had some very questionable content on their website. You did say yes, yes. And, um, and their reaction was to get rid of all adult content, even down to, from what I understand, you know, paintings of, you know, truths coming over well to shame mankind. Um, so, so paintings, everything, it was kind of all gone in the space of a week I think. Um, and we're seeing rotten tomatoes and we're seeing brands, companies, internet spaces, anyone is existing on the internet, has to grapple with, you know, people who are Genuis and people who are disingenuous when they interact with this space.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But, but the, the internet gives you the scope to be anonymous and disingenuous. I mean, it's, it's, it reminded, I always kinda think about the internet as being something like when you're in a car, like you, you do things in your car that you wouldn't do if you weren't in your car like it, you know? And I think it's the same kind of, it's a really interesting psychological space. The internet has kind of, people don't behave the way that you would behave, you know, in a face to face interaction.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And it allows for people be angry in this way. And to lash out. And I think one of the things that we see is that social media is this pseudo public space. It's not public in the face to face way, but our reactions are being observed by people as if they're public. But they're not attributed to me. I'm anonymous, but the rest of the world still sees me. And so we get this, we get these interesting polarizations of what people do.
Speaker 2:Right? Can you, so what do you mean by that? So can you elaborate a little bit on, so you can't you, you as if you're the poster, you don't, you don't S you don't feel as if you're being seen. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:Well, if I, if I make a Twitter account, if I made a fake Twitter account that isn't attached to my personal identity, and then I tweaked at certain celebrities, that behavior is public that can be witnessed by everyone I've tweeted to and from everyone else in this space. But people don't know that I am the one doing it. So it allows these people to have this sense of power. They're creating a reaction in the world. And yet they themselves don't have to carry the consequence.
Speaker 2:It's interesting too, cause you know, people have described, um, a lot of social media, Facebook, Instagram, those kinds of things as a kind of film of performance. So you know, you, it's performative. So you're, but then again, you know, if you think about identity as performative as well, you know, like being a woman is performative according to kind of feminist literature and all of those kinds of things. So, you know, like it's hard not to be performing all that the internet does and all that social media does, I think is extend that gap between the audience and the performer in a way. And so it makes it easier for you to do bizarre things or I don't know, what would you call it? Socially unacceptable things.
Speaker 1:Definitely. It gives us a space to be more socially unacceptable because we don't have to carry the consequences of that behavior, but it is without a doubt, a performative space. I w I would agree with that assessment entirely. Um,
Speaker 2:yeah. And so, um, tell me a little bit more about this whole captain Marvel thing. What happened in the end?
Speaker 1:So it happens in the end. Um, you know, it's been out for about two weeks now. It's back up to 61,000 reviews people of hopefully real people.
Speaker 2:Right? And what, how's it going, what's the review look like?
Speaker 1:So now it has an overall positive score where before I had an incredibly negative one.
Speaker 2:What, what is being being the superhero median there that you are, what is the issue with women, not with women in terms of women, but people's response to women playing roles in these superhero movies? I mean, I get it, I understand, you know, like it scared little men, but you know, why, why is it so important to the, the, to that particular kind of segment in a way.
Speaker 1:So it does, I think, tie to identity in a very important way. So for a very long time in this genre, in, in what I'll call the nerd space.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Let's call it that. The nerd space. Is that something that we can copyright, let's call it. Yeah,
Speaker 1:let's, let's copyright that trademark done. Um, so this space has been predominantly used by men, seen by men, curated by male fans, um, and comic books catered to this interest as well. So they were mostly for a long time about men and consumed by men who had a vested interest in having that space outside of necessarily the, you know, the sports rule, mainstream society and the professional identity. It was a space for a lot of disenfranchised young men to be nerds, to feel like this was a safe space for them that wasn't judgmental. And sometimes these men have not had the best luck interacting with women and not just in a romantic space, but you know, there are other dynamics with gender that that can be conflicted.
Speaker 2:It could also be the way that they interpret those interactions. I think. You know, like if you have privilege and if you believe that you're entitled to these things and you get rejection, which is just a natural part of social interaction, then you think, well, you know, all of that group of people who rejected me, uh, worthy of my anger and, and disappointment. And I think that comes with privilege as well. I think, you know, when you have so much privilege, you're not conscious of your privilege. You don't realize that this is just how the world works. And because life has be sown, been so easy for you, you've never kind of noticed these things.
Speaker 1:And that's part of how, how privilege works. You don't, you don't realize your own privilege, how it functions.
Speaker 2:It's always people with privilege don't who say, Oh no, there's no such thing as privilege. They're exactly kind of supporting that. That thesis really is that saying, I don't notice it as evidence. It's like bad breath. You know, you don't, everyone else notices it, but you don't.
Speaker 1:Of course, yes. Privilege is bad breath. It's also a good analogy. We should write that one down too. And these narratives themselves, you know, they were catering to this male fantasy of getting the girl, I'm saving the girl damsel in distress also in the comic book kind of. Yes, exactly. And so and so there this, this wonderful fantasy about being powerful. And then when women come into this space, um, and a woman enjoy the media in this space, what it does is it says, this is for us to, to a group of people who held very tightly to this and it says, you know, being a nerd is not the reason you can't interact. Well with women. Women like this media too. You can't necessarily, you know, interact in a healthy manner with women in part because of the actions you are taking. And it asks people to be more responsible for their own actions. And some people with privilege and a sense of entitlement will react to that. They don't want the identity threat. That is well, it's not your interests that make you, you know, Oh, we'll give you power that give you power. It's yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You kind of mentioned this whole idea of, you know, identity, dissociation. What do you mean by that identity?
Speaker 1:You can kind of come into three flavors. When we're talking about social identity, there is the groups, I'm part of the groups. I want to be part of my aspirations. And then there are the groups I don't want to be part of. And that's the dissociation. Okay? So we see this with, you know, captain Marvel, we see this in a lot of other spaces online. So these, these trolls are attacking captain Marvel saying we don't want women there. A dissociative group as part of this space. And what we see on the other hand is when is when something is attacked, when captain Marvel is attacked, when black Panther is attacked, when any media is attacked, when Nike is attacked, um, as they are for their political stance. So you have, you have one side of the equation being attacked. Um, the people who do identify, who say, no, no, no, this is my identity. They will actually rear up in support. And so what I've noticed in the marketing space and a little bit too in the political space, is that this identity polarization that we're seeing in the way social media functions to make these conversations, you know, bigger and larger and more powerful, um, is that brands are able to leverage this identity, connection
Speaker 2:or disconnection or disconnection really. And they are doing it. Can you kind of think of brands that are doing that?
Speaker 1:So, and, and I can't say for sure that this is what Nike has done deliberately, but Nike, um, so in America with American football, yeah. Um, there's a very polarizing figure. Colin Kaepernick who was protesting in a peaceful manner.
Speaker 2:In what way? Tilt and tell us, see what way was he protesting?
Speaker 1:Not standing for the American national Anthem. Donald Trump had convictions. Donald Trump did not like it. I love Americans on the right end of their political spectrum took exception with this. And so he became a figure who was polarizing in a patriotic identity sort of way. Patriotism is, yes. Yes. Um, so what Nike did is that they signed Colin Kaepernick for a deal and they had a Twitter advertisement with him on it. And what you saw the next day was a lot of people in the American political rights saying, I'm going to burn my Nike shoes. I will never buy from Nike again.
Speaker 2:And do people do that or is it, is it more about performing to the world and you know, and I think it's a little bit of both. I think there are people we react very strongly to$300 pair of shoes. Seems a bit silly. It is silly. It's absolutely right.
Speaker 1:Silly. But identity makes us do things that are not necessarily logical. Yeah. It's an emotional reaction as a perceived rejection from a brand. It's like the brand is broken up with you. You were breaking up with[inaudible].
Speaker 2:So what did anything happen to Nike like it did sales go down or anything?
Speaker 1:The sales went down very temporarily. There was a, there was a stock market, little dip there. What happened again, so you have this one side of the equation saying we hate this brand now. For taking a stance, but then the other sides supporting side realizes their own identities being attacked. This is who I am, you have the, this is why I don't want to be and this is who I am. And so they came back, sales went up for Nike, their stock market performance went great, is still holding strong. So after that quick little dip, it turned out to be a very advantageous choice for the brands. I
Speaker 2:think. I think that's kind of fades into one of the things I noticed or that I wanted to kind of think about this week as well. This whole idea of kind of reputation management as well. You know, like one of the things I kind of always think about when businesses, when things go wrong, when businesses do things or there's, you know, fewer or whatever in the world, um, particularly in relation to brands, um, is do they think about, you know, what, what the kind of process is going to be. Do they think when they kind of launch a campaign, you know, with a, with a, um, a person who might cause real problems for the brand? Do they kind of think through that process? A lot of the time, you know, my experience has been working with businesses that they're so kind of focused in on, on getting things happening that they don't really think beyond the positives, you know, the positive aspects of it. And they don't think beyond their own segments often. You know, they don't think. But there are other stakeholders and publics and stuff like that. And I guess, you know, one of the things I always think about it's reputation and it's probably comes from my kind of background on boards and things like that. But you know, actually, what do you call it? Like doing due diligence about your marketing before you go ahead and do it. Now, clearly with Nike that kind of pays off. But I was thinking, you know, things like Boeing at the moment, you know, like man, they're going to have trouble with, with, it's a seven 37 max kind of thing. But convincing people, convincing first of all the big brands to buy the planes, but then convincing your passengers that it's safe to get on those planes. And I, I kinda think back to Malaysian airlines, you know, that, you know, one plane went and again not of their own doing, but you know, one plane, I can't remember the order, whether it was the one that was shot down over Ukraine and then the MH, I can't remember the number but the one that disappeared. But you know, Malaysian airlines I notice all the time are offering cheap discount fairs. People don't want to travel on Malaysian airlines. I see in the Twitter sphere and on Instagram Umay you know, people say, I saw this amazing price for Malaysian airlines, but I refused to go on them. And I think when you think about with the Boeing seven 37, the one that happened, um, in Indonesia, but then the one that happened this week or so with Ethiopia, you go, okay, that's really difficult for Boeing to recover from that. How do you manage that kind of reputation? And I think it's a real kind crisis management kind of mentality.
Speaker 1:So, and I think that's really interesting. And I think that the case of Boeing this week is especially fascinating because as you mentioned with Malaysian airlines, normally when something happens in this type of sphere, we, we look at the airline and we say, well, Malaysian airlines was the problem, not the airplane itself. But now we're seeing people recognizing it might be an issue with Boeing, the creators of the airplane and their reputation is now taking a hit rather than necessarily the airline, Ethiopian airlines. And so,
Speaker 2:and so how do I, you know, I, I've always kind of thought from a business point of view, how do you manage that? How so is it all of the airlines that own Boeing seven, three sevens does that then have a halo effect to all airlines with Boeing's? You know, cause there's really only two, there's a couple more, but there's really only two big manufacturers, commercial jets, which is Boeing and Airbus, you know, other than that, you know, there a smaller kind of ones around, but you just think, you know, without air, bus has had its problems. But you know, Airbus, up until recently, I remember, you know, it was really struggling with media because of the a three 80, you know, that, that kind of said this is the, the plane of the past now, because people don't want to travel and it's going to be the Boeing seven seminate seven, which is going to do all of the long haul flights and all of those kinds of things. So it is really interesting to kind of see how reputational management is done. And like you say, you know, it's not, it's not Ethiopian airlines and it's not the Indonesian airline. It's the actual supplier of the airplanes, which is kind of, you know, who manages the, the brand there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Who[inaudible]
Speaker 2:I wouldn't, I don't want to get on a Boeing seven 37 max at the moment, even though, you know, at a kind of, as everybody says that, you know, when you're safer getting on a plane than you are getting in your car or walking across the road. But you know, you know, um, like George Loewenstein kind of perspective of, you know, risk his feelings. It's like, well, yeah, but the, the perceived risk is, is visceral right now. So it'd be really scary to get on a seven 37 max.
Speaker 1:I, I agree entirely. I think that one of the things fascinating about this is that consumers, the average consumer doesn't normally think about the aircraft when selecting a flight. And this might be shifting that a little bit, certainly this week in the news. You were thinking about it. I'm thinking about it and I'm thinking, yeah, I don't want to be on that airplane.
Speaker 2:And you have, and like, even though, you know, it might be the new Boeing seven 37 max, which is everybody is talking about really, I couldn't imagine that people would be thinking to that level of depth. They'd be going Boeing perhaps. And then the next level might be Boeing seven 37. And you know, a lot of Qantas's and virgins planes, seven 37. So it's hard to avoid flying. But, um, you know, it's really interesting. This is kind of a, uh, an interesting kind of perspective. But when I, I was, I was teaching at RMI T when, um, in September 11th, 2001 and I actually flew to the United States on September 20th, 2001 wow. Um, but my students were saying to me, aren't you afraid of getting into an airplane? I went, well, no, it's probably the safest time to be getting into an airplane because like security will be ridiculously high. And then I said to them, but aren't you afraid of going into tall buildings? So it was that thing of, you know, what are we, where do we look for the kind of the, the Reese we go, well it's airplanes because airplanes as a concept when they crash is, is, you know, big, you know, it's, it's a big thing, but we don't kind of broadcast what we do in a way, but we, you know, car crashes or you know, the number of, you know, people being killed, domestic and domestic violence kind of thing. So I think again, it is about what we notice and what he's seeing, what he's seeing is newsworthy and things like that. Like, I would still say it's safe to get probably getting Boeing seven 37 maxes anyway. But it is that kind of reputational kind of management that Boeing has to kind of go through right now.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean we see this, you know, you hear about statistics of how many people die from a cow cow being tipped over onto them per year. Yes. Versus you know, by lightning strikes or by shark attacks.
Speaker 2:It's a really interesting concept because they're really bad at kind of understanding probability
Speaker 1:we are terrible at it and an emotional management comes in. So as you said, you know, risk his feelings. So with with airplanes we don't feel like sense of control. We lack control the second we walk into an airplane,
Speaker 2:if you think about it, it's a metal tube hurtling through the air with wings full of fuel. Like it's a pretty scary,
Speaker 1:it is a scary experience, a pretty scary concept. So in that case you have brands, you know, the airplane providers and the airlines themselves who their biggest selling point in a lot of cases is trust is consumer trust and safety, which is great with as part of that trust, we will get you from point a to point B and you won't be dead. Exactly. And if you don't have that, it's, it is a necessary condition. It's not necessary. It's not sufficient, but it is 100% necessary as your starting point. So how Boeing is going to navigate this,
Speaker 2:it's amazing. Yeah. And it kind of leads me to one of the other things I again very kind of newsworthy today is the Catholic church and I guess religion in general, you know, like, um, it's a really, and we don't want to get to kind of, we want to be careful here because religion is always a tricky area to talk about. But I do think, you know, when you think about the Catholic church, when you think about the effect that the trial of George Pell has had on people's perspectives in a way when probably, you know, one of the most senior members of the Catholic church, he's charged it. It really does change people's perspective of trust in a way in, in, you know, like, and I don't mean to kind of, um, reduce the concept to, to marketing. But you know, in a way it is a concept of brand as well. You know, a, a particular is a form of brand because people are saying, can I trust this, you know, as these, this is the Catholic church or is Christianity or whatever. The thing that kind of feeds into my identity and my values. And that's really what, you know, a lot of brands are about. Um, but I do think it's really interesting to see how the, the church navigates these and I, my take on it has been that they haven't navigated it very well in the last couple of weeks. It's been pretty poor kind of brand navigation.
Speaker 1:So I think as marketers we're able to step back and if we think about a religion, you know, in a religious group at from a brand perspective, we know all about how brands navigate their PR, how they make apology.
Speaker 2:And they do, they have huge marketing kind of areas. We know that as well. It's not like we're kind of, you know, um, pouring anything onto them. They, they have marketing departments, they have PR people, they're all managing these things and George Pell had his own kind of PR kind of management as well. So yeah, you're right. Keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, no. And I agree that that yes, the considering that the church does have people helping with their public relations, you know, they, they haven't done a good job of navigating, regaining that public trust and you know, they might in the future because of, of what churches represent in general. But in order to maintain trust, you need to maintain, you know, dialogue with the public and this essence of transparency. And this is not something that the Catholic church has currently famous for. Kind of the opposite.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But it's a huge church as well and go to Italy and um, you know, it's, it is part and parcel of culture really and go to a lot of these kinds of Catholic countries. Um, it's interesting, I mean we're gonna um, kind of need wind up in a minute, but one of the other things in terms of reputation that you were kind of talking about earlier with me was the, um, kind of way, way, kind of issue as well. Again, reputational management again, you know, uh, kind of everything is tied with the same brush. They're from China. People make these perceptions, but the reality of directors of the Australian kind of component of why way stepping down and saying we don't necessarily trust the system, that kind of doesn't help the brand very much at all. Does it,
Speaker 1:it does not help the brand. The, the thing that is I think worst for a brand ever is when internally you have people saying, no, we don't, we don't have faith in what we've been selling, what we've been creating. And you've seen that happen, you know, in the last year with Google and they removed don't be evil from their own internal motto because they had workers at their company saying, I don't want to do this because it is evil. Um,
Speaker 2:I don't know. I, I kind of, I always find it interesting that there's, maybe there's a naivete on other people's parts, but to look at these places and to think these are commercial businesses, of course they're going to push the boundaries of what the legal system allows them to do. And you know, I think things like Airbnb is another one. And Uber, you know, that we, we have this naive view that they there for our customers, that they're there for us as customers, but in reality they're there as profit making businesses and you know, Airbnb, Uber, I forget who else is, they're all launching publicly this year. And I don't know if you saw her in the news, but you know, San Francisco basically said there's going to be another, I think it was 10,000 billionaires in San Francisco in 2019 that is a lot. It's a lot of billionaires and you think, well, you know, this has not been a community service. These, these people know what they are in. And I do think there's a kind of, I had this kind of take on any of these, um, types of, um, companies is that you, you've got to take advantage of them while they last because you know, you know, in a way, as soon as they start having to monetize, they'll kind of go the way of most commercial businesses and, and um, you know, they'll start basically, um, targeting vulnerable people and coming up with ways to sell their product so that they can make profits.
Speaker 1:Definitely. And, and you can call me a little bit of a cynic, but I have a wall way phone. I do. And um, you know, there's all these privacy concerns, security concerns. The way I see it again, cynically is that at least I know who has access to my data, at least I know which government is spying on me and stealing my information because I don't necessarily trust any of these major phone providers. I just see that this one has entered the public light this year and is dominating the conversation, but it's not necessarily that they're doing anything. Their competitors aren't a lot of the time. They grew very rapidly.
Speaker 2:Also there's a branding thing with um, people's perceptions of foreign governments. Yes. Um, I mean I think there's a connection to that with things like the, um, my health record thing as well is that not just foreign governments, but any government people have this innate fear of the government using their information when in fact my experience of governments is generally that they're less sophisticated in using information than most commercial companies. But then even a lot of commercial companies that have a lot of information, but they don't really use it very well. I think, you know, that it's often, um, the, the dystopian view of how data is used is very different from the reality, which is that there's a lot of stuff going on being collected, but not a lot of it being used in a sophisticated way.
Speaker 1:I, yeah, that's entirely true. With all this big data. It's a matter of how reusing this data and the majority of companies are using it to sell to services to give you more targeted advertising. That's most of it.
Speaker 2:And, and that, I mean, you know, who knows what the future looks like. Um, I don't, but I think that's one of the really interesting things is that maybe it's a good idea to be wary of these things, but also, like you say, and you've kind of demonstrating this kind of sense of control, which is really important to kind of identity is this idea of you kind of have a sense of how your data is being used. Then at least you can say, I'm okay with so that, and you may not, you know, you're in a way, you're kind of doing a form of, I don't know, I'm self kind of ego management in a way because you're saying at least I feel like I'm in control, when in fact you may not be.
Speaker 1:Of course. Yes. Um, but that, that's how I managed to slice it. I have some idea of who's using it and I'm okay with it. And you're right, at the opposite end of the spectrum is to say, I will never use this company because I don't trust them. Um,
Speaker 2:but you can, you can do that with all companies. You could close the blinds, lock yourself in home, and be it still be monitored even if you turn on the television or something like that. So, yeah,
Speaker 1:to exist in society means well to exist in society and the current society. That means some level of invasion of our privacy in terms of data,
Speaker 4:in terms of social media and, and finding a way to navigate that, whether it's lashing out as a troll online or whether it's not letting the government have your health records. Yeah. What a, what a beautiful way to end. Yes. We brought it all back to the beginning. That's been great. Thank you so much, Jenny. I'm looking forward to talking to you again some time. Definitely. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 5:Yes.