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The CU2.0 Podcast
This podcast explores contemporary, critical thinking and issues impacting the nation's credit unions. What do they need to be doing to not just survive but prosper?
The CU2.0 Podcast
CU 2.0 Podcast Episode 379 DCUC's Jason Stverak on Why Small Credit Unions Matter, Really
Go back to when I started to report on credit unions and there were over 8000 credit unions. Now there are 4370.
In 2020 there were 5099 credit unions. Just in five years the count is down by 700+.
The math going forward is gloomy.
That’s why I smiled when I saw Jason Stverak’s CU Insight piece on Why small credit unions matter and how we can help them thrive.
Jason is chief advocacy officer at DCUC, the Defense Credit Union Council and is a past podcast guest.
Why is he advocating for keeping little credit unions alive?
I had to get him on the show - this episode was recorded on November 12, just hours before the federal government reopened after the longest shutdown in history.
We start by talking about what’s going on in Washington DC now - and quickly move into why DCUC has become an aggressive lobbyist and then we focus on why small credit unions matter and why DCUC cares.
It’s good stuff.
Listen up.
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SPEAKER_00:Hi, and welcome to the CU 2.0 podcast with big new ideas about credit unions and conversations about innovative technology with credit union and fintech leaders. This podcast is brought to you by Quillo, the real-time loan syndication network for credit unions, and by your host, long-time credit union and financial technology journalist Robert McGarvey. And now the CU 2.0 podcast with Robert McGarvey.
SPEAKER_01:Go back when I started to report on credit unions and there were over 8,000 of them in the United States. Now there are 4,370. Just in 2020, there were 5,099 credit unions. In five years, the count is down by 700 plus. The math is going forward to extinction. That's why I smiled when I saw Jason Stark's CU insight piece on why small credit unions matter and how we can help them thrive. Jason is Chief Advocacy Officer at DCUC, the Defense Credit Union Counsel, and is a past podcast guest. There's a link to that show in the show notes. So why is he advocating for helping little credit unions stay alive? I had to get him on the show. This episode was recorded on November 12, just hours before the federal government reopened, after the longest shutdown in history. We start by talking about what's going on in Washington, D.C. now, and quickly move into why DCUC has become an aggressive lobbyist, and then we focus on why small credit unions matter, why DCUC cares, and what the credit union movement can do to help more small credit unions stay alive and thrive. It's all good stuff. Listen up. How are you? What are you doing?
SPEAKER_02:Just waiting for the government to reopen. So uh, you know, we'll take that vote at 8 p.m. tonight, and then we can get back to uh, you know, the normal work of fighting for credit unions.
SPEAKER_01:So what have you been doing for the last 40 some odd days? I'm not your boss. I'm not gonna dock your pay or anything. Just curious.
SPEAKER_02:No, I mean, uh a lot of it is is you know, our megaphone or our communication channels uh kind of ramped up in terms of getting almost daily or hourly asks from both Democrats and Republicans, like, what are you guys doing to help people? You know, what are the programs that you have going on? How can I help, or how can I be informed? And making sure that what our credit unions did from day one, their members of Congress knew, and they could also help share that information, but also that we could help promote, you know, obviously what's going on. Now, the regulatory side didn't stop. They kept sending out letters, asking for new things, uh, that kept moving forward. But um, you know, the work on the NDAA was still going on behind the scenes by staff. So it's not as if our work stopped, it's just that there just weren't as many committee hearings going on.
SPEAKER_01:Now, what's going on at NCUA?
SPEAKER_02:You're in terms of anything, everything.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, uh, is there any probability that they'll increase the number of uh board members or actually add some?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I mean, you know, statutorily, no. Um, but will the administration start filling out the rest of them? I think that I think they're in a holding pattern. I think pretty much everybody is until you know the the the Supremes rule uh on the court case. Uh not this one, but dealing with the presidential powers uh and you know removing of independent, you know, independent directors. I think once that happens, I think you'll have either a green light or a uh red light uh in terms of how uh in terms having the administration announce their nominees.
SPEAKER_01:I I know they're out, I know they're out vetting people, so now I hear things are proceeding much more slowly internally at NCOA due to the staff reduction. Have you heard similar?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I haven't, you know, I was just testifying over in front of the board at the budget hearing, and obviously you have uh, you know, you're a little 920, 930 employees. Uh I mean that's a that is uh a 23% reduction. Uh you still have a few of those that are gonna come off because some took buyouts and they're working until uh December 31st. Um, I have not heard any complaints uh along those lines. Uh, you know, I'm I I think that what you're gonna see with the reduction in staff is that you're gonna see, you know, as they've talked about, expanded time between exams, you know, uh those types of things, but I have not heard of a work slowdown or any complaints about that.
SPEAKER_01:Has DCUC taken a position vis-a-vis that extended time between exams probability?
SPEAKER_02:Our position that we expressed in uh during the budget hearing was that if if if they have a reduction in resources, both either staff or uh you know financial, then use those resources where they make the most impact. For a well-run Camel 1 or 2 credit union, then maybe you don't need to have the most, you can you can extend that exam period out. But for ones that need more oversight, that's where you should focus your resources. So that's kind of the position that we've taken uh uh on the issue is that you know, dedicate your resources where they are needed most, uh, and that uh as you are requesting information from credit unions, not just blindly go down a checklist and say, okay, I need this document. Okay, why do you need this document from this credit union so that it saves time on both ends uh in justifying the request of information and the work that a credit union has to do uh to comply?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I do do I think Navy Federal, which I know is no longer a DCUC member or unless it's rejoined.
SPEAKER_02:Nope.
SPEAKER_01:Um I do I think they need to uh uh an exam once a year. I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02:Not no, I I I don't. I I think that you know, if there are you know a systemic problems, that's where you put those resources. But if you have a well-capitalized, well-run credit union, whatever its size, then you can say, hey, you know, let's do four in, you know, instead of uh, you know, every two, you know, justify the the need for a shortened period of time between exams. Because, you know, sometimes you get it so like you're going off one exam and going on to another. So um, you know, we need to make sure that we are removing as many administrative hurdles that credit unions have that prevent them from fulfilling their daily mission of opening the doors at each of their branches and being there to serve their members and their communities.
SPEAKER_01:Um DCUC has been, to my eyes, increasing its lobbying team, not necessarily with employees, but with consultants, et cetera. Uh pretty aggressively. Why?
SPEAKER_02:Uh you know, uh it to respond to the needs of our members. You know, we have grown uh our membership since March by about 35 to you know, almost 40 percent. And you know, we're we you know we're announcing almost a new member a week, uh, and and we're very proud of that record. So that to ensure that we are able, you know, to adequately represent their needs and uh you know, get the changes that that that will benefit them and their ability to serve their members, uh, then we've kind of adopted, we call it kind of a Green Beret advocacy uh that as issues are out there, we'll staff up, we'll, you know, uh and staff down uh as much as as much as needed. But you have to remember, most of this year we've been, you know, helping lead the movement uh on the tax issue. Um, you know, that was from January on uh when the memo was leaked uh to you know uh to the press about you know the 55-page memo of how do we pay essentially what are the what are the pay fors for the big beautiful bill? And right there listed is the credit union tax status. Um, you know, we're we're not gonna spare an expense to ensure that credit union interests are protected. And I think that we've done an incredible job at that, which is proven by you know the fact that more and more credit unions are coming to DCUC and asking to join.
SPEAKER_01:Now DCUC membership. I I saw just just this week, I think Desert Financial and I live I live in Phoenix and they're they're they're a big dog here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, 9 billion.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, historically. Yeah. Uh so what's the criteria? What and also uh of a guy I like very much, Peter Rice and Hanscom.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Now that's that's a classic military credit union.
SPEAKER_02:It is, and you know, you have to, you know, we we are, you know, um evolving uh as the movement has changed, but also as how our credit unions serve their communities. Every credit union in their field of membership has a veteran or somebody who knows a veteran or or somebody who has served or is serving, you know, in the United States military. So everybody, every credit union can be a member of DCUC. You know, we use the motto of, you know, we're we're built for defense, but we're open for all. Because the issues that impact credit unions, you know, the tax issue impacts Penn Fed, Randolph Brooks, you know, Hanscom, as you mentioned, as well as it represents schools choice and uh, you know, Black Hills Federal Credit Union in South Dakota. So uh the need uh for DCUC to expand to make sure that we are not only representing the views of the traditional on-base only credit unions, we represent the entire credit union movement and every credit union that wants to join.
SPEAKER_01:And as you Sam, unless there's a credit union I'm not aware of for hardcore pacifists who are multi-generational pacifists, I don't think there's any credit union that doesn't have some military connection in its membership.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and that's great. And honestly, if there was one more power to them, that's great. That's what the you know, the cooperative method is. It's kind of like you've got credit unions that are on, you know, at coal companies. We have credit unions that are only do green lending or only for environmentalists. So I think that power of the cooperative, the power of the cooperative model in terms of, you know, putting your money, you know, where you want it to go is incredibly powerful and it's in in the power of the credit union movement.
SPEAKER_01:Now let's shift gears to why I reached out to you, which was that CU Insight piece where you put forth the proposition that essentially it's in the interest of all credit unions to keep small credit unions alive.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And I first heard that proposition from Jim Blaine, who at the time was CEO of State Employees, credit union, the second biggest credit union in the country. And I said something to Jim, like, you know, why are all these credit unions walking the hill with their tea tiny things? And he said, You don't get it, man. In a lot of a lot of legislators' offices, I'm representing a big bank. These are representing the people. Uh now, Jim was also understanding his influence, at least on North Carolina politicians.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:But uh but he was sincere in saying we need those the voices of the small credit unions to have more credibility in Washington, D.C. in particular. Now, so then preparing for this, I looked in 2019, there were 5,236 federally insured credit unions.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Uh in Jul June, July of this year, there were 4,370.
unknown:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's down, I don't know, 800, something like that. Yep. And there's roughly 100 credit unions that aren't federally insured, but it doesn't really affect the numbers. When I started writing about credit unions many years ago, there were over 8,000 credit unions. So we're approaching about a 50% reduction. And at this rate, I I'm not gonna do the math about when we reach just one, just Navy Federal. Schools first probably would claim they'd be alive too. Okay. There'll be a couple.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think Bill Bill would make sure they are.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah. So it's we're but the the the trend line is obvious and serious, a big deal. So then what? What can happen to keep these small credit unions alive?
SPEAKER_02:I think there's a myriad of options. I think that you know, uh support from within industry. I think in my article I've talked about or I've talked about publicly, you know, uh kind of an obligation for large credit unions to to assist smaller credit unions. You know, one of the issues for smaller credit unions is economies of scale and being able to uh uh, you know, handle processes or advice or help, um, you know, moving forward, if there is an ability for a larger credit union to provide training or resources for small credit unions, I think that improves the overall health of the entire movement. Because I think, you know, you mentioned Mr. Blaine's comments, and I used to work up on Capitol Hill, and to an extent he is right that when you have a you know a Navy walk-in or a, you know, uh or a large credit union for that area, in in a lot of elected officials' minds and others, they see asset size and they're thinking, oh, you're too big to care about the little people. Um, and our ability to ensure that within our DNA, whether you're Navy size or tri-city size in Washington state, you are working to serve your communities. But it is incredibly helpful. I can talk to you on the advocacy side and the political side to be able to walk in and say, here's a$50 million credit union serve in this community, and here's a CEO that is the fill-in teller on Mondays because they don't have enough staff. You know, that's incredibly, incredibly uh important if we want to ensure that there are members of Congress and their staff that want to or will help uh and help advance the credit union proposals that are that that are in front of them. Now, you know, uh, every you know, the definition of what a small credit union is is always kind of a floating one. You have the 500 million for complex, you know, complex or not. Um, you've got the numbers of 100 million, you know, it's an exact definition of the NCUA. Um, and you know, uh, I you know, you have$500 million credit unions call them small, you have$40 billion credit unions refer to themselves as small. And I hope that every credit union, regardless of size, try it wants to kind of have that moniker of a small credit union because of what it represents. It represents, you know, that tie to community that they know your name when you walk in the door. They uh, you know, they've got that cup of coffee with the loan officer, and they're talking about the local high school football game that you know the previous Friday, and what you know, the loan that you need. So there's that discussion of small credit union as a thought or a uh you know uh of how you should act. But it is it is it that you know it it is a challenging to say the least ex uh you know, process for her to walk in and say, here's a 10 billion, here's a 9 billion, here's a 20 billion, and they're you know, they're looking at you and say, okay, where's the 50, where's the 100 million dollars? Because you need all of them in the circle of the uh of the movement, healthy and happy and successful, so that the movement and the credit union industry will be here five years from now or 10 years from now. And, you know, there's gonna be continued consolidation, whether it is changing demographics in rural America where I'm from, you know, changing technology, et cetera. But we need to work as an industry to put in place support from credit union to credit union and also regulations and rules in place or repeal some of them, so that credit unions do not need to merge based upon the cost of filling out paperwork. That that that it should be a community-based decision, not a do we have the resources to make sure we're filling out every SARS report, you know, that nobody in Washington, D.C. ever reads. And sorry, for a kind of a longer answer on that one.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I I agree. And go back to state employees. When Latino Credit Union was founded in North Carolina, for many years, maybe still today, I don't know, uh, state employees did their core processing free, I think free of charge. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I know Jim Blaine wasn't making any money on that processing.
SPEAKER_02:So I think that if if you can find more examples of that across the country, you know, I think that's you know, important because if we are not making it attractive as a viable prospect in a community to start a credit union, then we're not gonna have new credit unions start and we're not gonna have credit union stainless communities. I come from, you know, the Dakotas, you know, where uh you know uh uh most reserve Native American reservations have no financial institutions, uh, you know, branches on their area, uh, you know, uh on the reservation. And that that that's that's inexcusable in in terms of the ability to serve and you know an underserved population. So, you know, what can we do as an industry to make it, I'm not even saying profitable, I'm saying making it um having the ability to start and grow and maintain credit unions in towns of 5,000 to you know uh communities inside of New York City that want to start one.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I don't think running Latino credit unions numbers cost state employees anything. I think they had excess capacity in their system, which I have in my house, not enough to run a credit union, but it's not unusual to have excess capacity and you say, hey, well, you know, we can help you out here and we'll down the line, we'll figure out if you need to get your own stuff. And but for now, sure, we can get you going.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I would hope that more credit union CEOs and boards would say, okay, what can we do to help? And not see, you know, if you're a$185 billion credit union, I think you should not be concerned of a$35 million credit union and helping them. That you're not going to lose market share if you help them with some of their back office stuff or provide strategic advice, or as you're doing employee trainings, invite their employees to come over. So that's not an expense that they have to have on uh on their books. So I think that, you know, by fully embracing the principles that we have as an industry, I think it will be helpful uh to the stability, survivability, growth of our smaller credit unions all across the nation.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and another way to look at it is some years ago, I added up the assets of all the credit unions, and all of them together, including Navy Federal, had less assets, fewer assets than JP Morgan Chase. And then a few years after that, I looked at it again, and Chase had increased the margin a lot. It's uh it was fairly close the first time I did the numbers. And a few years later, I was like, wow, there's a big gap open that opened up here. And uh so all these guys are kind of small. And as I say to credit unions, you know, I don't personally know Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JP Morgan, but I'd bet any amount of money, he does not wake up in the morning saying, What the hell did Navy Federal do yesterday? He might say, What did Citicorp do yesterday? Uh, or what did Deutsche Bank do yesterday? But no, he just and I and I'm sure he wishes the best to Navy Federal as far as he does.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I I was I was blessed up on Capitol Hill, you know, working for uh Senator Kevin Kramer is on still is on the Senate Banking Committee. And I would be in the meetings with you know uh Moynihan from Bank of America and Wells Fargo and City and Jamie actually uh from Chase. And yeah, the you know, the we're fearful of credit unions was never mentioned in any of those meetings. It was more, yeah. I mean, their their peers are, you know, you know, our are Bank of America or HSBC or you know, credit suisse, you know, those are the those are the ones they're taking over. But none of those institutions I mean I I just named care about a timber community in northern Idaho of 10,000 people because it it it's it's a blip on their books. The in those communities, it's the community to financial institutions, and I will give a shout out to community banks that have dug in and are helping communities, small communities across this country. Um, and they're facing the same pressures that small credit unions are in terms of consolidation, et cetera. So, you know, I think that you know, as as it relates specifically to credit unions, uh we as an industry need to lead to ensure the survivability so that we are not Australia or Canada, where 10 or 15 years from now we have three because you know that then then the, I mean, how how do you serve your community then? How do you serve your field of membership when the entire country is your field of membership?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I I I think if every if if every credit union of any size decided to do something to help small credit unions in their community, right there it would make a difference.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And the numbers are still there. I mean, Chase Bank on its own has more assets, the entire credit union industry. A lot more a lot more. And if you know, let's just say Navy Federal made the choice and they became a bank. They are on the smallest to small size of a regional bank. And so you need to put things in perspective in terms of size, you know. And this is kind of one of those that I'm gonna pull an analogy from Benjamin Franklin that it's the time for all of us to hang together, or we're certainly all gonna hang separately. And by that, I'm talking about everybody coming together and saying, what can I do to help? Hey, I mean, I, you know, uh, if if if if I have it correctly, I think, you know, uh in the state of Minnesota, they helped start uh a fully African-American uh credit union, and they had investments or deposits coming from other credit unions if you know, to help support. So those little things are happening generically, not you know, organically across the country. I think it just needs to be, when it happens, praised and celebrated. And also kind of that challenge from CEO to CEO to help each other out. Because, you know, you go to my home states of the uh of the Dakotas, you know, the largest credit unions are one in two billion. So it's not like you're you know, you're at the school choice size or Randolph Brooks size or Penn Fed size. So, but in that community, they are they're the Navy Federal of North Dakota. That that type of discussion. So what can they help do to ensure that you know qua you know, that a you know, that a 50 or a 10 or a hundred million dollar credit union can help it can survive?
SPEAKER_01:Well, one of the principal reasons a credit union merges is a long-serving CEO retires and no one wants the job.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Uh and the board, and I'm not faulting them for this, after trying and trying, they said we just got to merge out of existence. We got to. But years ago, if you needed a CEO, you could call Jim Blaine and explain your situation, and he might have an employee he would give you, assuming the employee was interested in it. It's uh I mean he created a lot of CEOs, I mean, dozens and dozens. Um and uh, you know, it was people who wanted to run their own shops, they were never gonna rise to the very top with state employees. But hey, you know, I got this little$50 million thing over here.
SPEAKER_02:No, and we what you're explaining to me is kind of the you know, you know, the coaching tree that you have in in football. Who comes off the Bill Walsh scheme? You know, who comes off the Bill Parcells? Because, you know, uh to use your you know example from from Mr. Blaine, it's like, hey, I got somebody who's talented, but they're not gonna run a 50 billion, a$50 billion, you know, or a$10 billion uh credit union. They need they need CEO or C C-suite experience. Why not say, hey, you know what? You know, help help that small credit union get a good CEO where you're investing, and and and I'm just throwing things out here. Maybe you know, uh you help with benefits or you give a grant or something like that, where they get a high-quality CEO who learns, and then you have built up a relationship between those two credit unions, but then also you're helping homegrown credit union talent see that, hey, I have a future as a credit union leader in this country in this country. And I know those are radical ideas to sometimes to do, but credit unions are kind of the original financial, you know, radical changes, you know. You think of it also as like the farm team, you know, in in baseball. Like, you know, what are you doing to help, you know, get your hitter from A to A to AAA to you know, playing in the majors and that type of thing? What are we as a movement? And while we are separate, we are all together in the movement. What are we doing to help grow our own?
SPEAKER_01:And credit unions still will tell you in many cases that they don't compete with other credit unions, which is not true, but they they will tell you that. And they wish it were true in many cases. Right. It's uh then again, many years ago, I asked the then CEO of Navy Federal uh if he competed with Penn Fed, and there was a long pause, and he said, no, USAA. It's uh it's uh which was about the same size as as Navy. They were really they they both had about the same playing weight.
SPEAKER_02:So exactly. And you know, uh everybody's that kind of that way. You know, you do compete, you want to be the biggest, the best, you know, the you know, having the largest membership, all that type of stuff, but you know, that that's that's kind of capitalism in the American way, and that's not something we need to be ashamed about uh of wanting to be better or the best. But we also can we also need to understand that we embrace our we we embrace the the financial community in a little bit different way than our our friends, the banks, that we want to grow others at the same time. It's not us and nobody else. It's okay, how how can we as a movement continue to you know continue to grow? And you know, we we've talked about what individual credit unions can do, but the challenges facing small credit unions and the movement overall is, you know, sometimes mergers happen because you butt it up, you're you're up against the cap on what you realistically can get under your field of membership. You know, what are we doing to help expand credit unions' ability to go get new members or to people knocking on the door saying, I want to be a member? Oh no, you don't live on the right street, or you're not at the right company, or you're not in the right county, you know. What are we doing at the state and federal level to fight for? And the banks, you know, are gonna, you know, go tooth and nail. But what are we doing to expand that? Changing the discussion from what is the bank getting what the credit union bit to credit. What are we doing to ensure that the community and the individual in the community has the largest possible choice of financial institutions to serve their needs?
SPEAKER_01:Interesting. Many credit unions, including um not Navy, but many of the military themed credit unions have a backdoor to entry. And the credit union I principally use, I joined, I the CEO asked why I wasn't a member. I I lived in his state, I knew the guy. I said, I you know, I not you know I don't have any relationship to the things. And he said, Hey man, just give 10 bucks to this charity and you can become a member. And I said, Wow, really? And yeah, really, and I've been a member of them for many years now. Uh and other instant more institutions can use that technique. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, I agree 100%. And we in credit unions have had to be creative to get around these artificial fences that have been placed around their ability to serve the largest population. And wouldn't it be great if anybody who walks in your door in your community, if you have your charter set in the right way, could just join? That that's it. I like the fact that you sponsor the local softball team. I want to be a member. I like the fact that you have a debit card that will allow me to donate directly to the museum for every purchase I make. Nobody else in this town does it. That'd be fantastic. And that's just kind of uh more of an example of credit unions and credit union, more importantly, trade associations, getting in and saying, what can we do to remove all the barriers to credit union? And I'm not saying unbridled growth, but credit unions, communities that they serve having the ability to say, I want to be a member of my credit union, and not have government tell you, hey, you don't live in the right spot, you can't join. So, you know, I know that that that doesn't happen overnight and you you can't snap your fingers, but you know, to kind of paraphrase John F. Kennedy's speech at Rice University about, you know, why does Rice play Texas? They do it because it is hard. And why are we going to the moon? Because you know, because it is hard. And those are the types of challenges that we need to aspire to as associations and movement to accomplish and not just be happy with, you know, the nibbles around the corner. We need to be big, we need to be bold in terms of the issues that we are going to fight for. Otherwise, 10, 15, 20 years down the road, credit unions are going to be facing the same questions about growth. And maybe we're down to 2,000 credit unions then, because we didn't dig in now to provide the avenues. And I'm not saying everything will work, but we to give every credit union and every person who wants to start a credit union, every small credit union, the ability to uh to survive and thrive uh in their communities.
SPEAKER_01:What are some I'm familiar with uh some of the big credit unions in DCUC. What are some of the smaller ones?
SPEAKER_02:Oh my god. I mean, you know, we we uh you know, I don't know if you know Doug Wadsworth. He's been uh leader in the small credit union movement, Tri-Cities up in Washington. There, they it'll be announced and probably probably just uh um gonna get an angry email from the communications for secretary, but you know, that they've joined. You know, we've we've got credit unions all you know all across this country. You you know, yeah, a great CEO in in credit union, Frontier Community Credit Union in Kansas under Michael Augustine is one, and they are a strong and vibrant credit union. And when I say you know, smaller, I mean, you know, we're blessed to have membership from Penn Fed at the high, you know, all the way down to, you know, uh, I think Hickham, um, if if I'm remembering correctly, uh out in Hawaii is, you know, 30 to 50, 30 to 50 million. And hopefully I've got that number correctly from a conversation. So uh DCUC has the biggest of the big and the smallest of the small, and every one of them has a seat at the table to help this organization uh chart a bright future for all credit unions.
SPEAKER_01:Now, one point you made in your CU Insight uh piece was that most trade associations, the biggest members also A, pay the most dues and B have the most influence. I mean, I worked for a many, many, many years ago. I worked for a very big trade association in Washington, DC, which had thousands of members, but I'd say about eight had significant influence. And these were today's they weren't that as big as the numbers I'm gonna give you. These were many billions of dollars in annual sales, many billions were the eight big ones. And uh and the other guys, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have a say here. Sure you do. Come on in. Yeah, sure. Uh talk to my secretary, by the way.
SPEAKER_02:No, yeah, no, I I and you're you you are right, and I think that that's the sad fact of all associations, and I'm not specifically calling out credit union and trade associations, but I think that DCUC has a little bit of the secret sauce on making sure all voices are around the table with kind of our due structure. We have a limited due structure. It's capped so that you know, the you know, the Pen Feds, the Vice Stars, the Randolph Brooks, you know, year 18, 19, 20, 20 billion, yeah, you know, on up, the maximum amount of membership dues that they can pay is$22,500. You know, and we also have um, you know, we just as a as an association, last year with, you know, within the last 14 months, our membership voted to double our dues on ourselves because of our growth, but also we hadn't raised our dues since 1996. And so, and so we it's based upon asset size. But when you look at that number, it's kind of per capita. So that your ability, your input is not based upon the size of your dues check. Everyone's welcome. We're proud to have on our board. I so yeah, I I I I love when I can email them. Ron Aoki, you know, out in Hawaii is uh small credit union, uh Maggie uh uh sorry, Maggie at Keys Federal, uh down in Key West, of which I I need to make sure I can get a trip down there this winter. You know, she's the chairman of our board, uh the chair of our board, and she's a a small credit union CEO and leader. So, you know, in our DNA as an organization, is all sizes of credit unions working together for the movement. Um, we also have uh we we call it a limited membership for you know you're just not allowed to vote, and that's capped at$3,000. So again, the largest of the large can only write a$3,000 check. And we actually, for credit unions of$100 million and below, we actually reduced our dues, you know, to write so that many of them write like a$1,000 check or a$2,000 check. And so, you know, when you're looking at, you know, your your your spreadsheet at the end of the year of what you can be a part of, that return on investment for advocacy or working with associations, you're not going to find anything better uh than DCUC because not just based upon you know the amount, but the fact of how the organization is structured to ensure that everybody is asked for their opinion to help uh improve the organization.
SPEAKER_01:Now, I'm I'm not asking you to criticize the largest credit union trade association, but if I'm a credit union and I say, okay, guys, I belong to that larger one. Why would I want to join you too? And I assume most of your members also belong to that one. Perhaps I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because they're able to uh on a cost side. And you know, we don't offer trainings and education, we partner with other organizations to make it available to them, whether it's Qs and Makeup and others.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and and and you know, the move what what do you offer that that I'd want to join? Oh, I you you're not gonna get better advocacy, you're not gonna get uh, you know, I think you're gonna see as a part of us in 2026, uh, you know, our growth in regulatory advocacy, um, you know, in terms of that you hired or not hired, which probably is something whose specialty is regulatory advocacy.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And we're gonna be launching um in January, you know, regulatory monthly regulatory calls with whoever you're you designated your credit union to call and talk with everybody about what you're experiencing, what letters we're writing, so that you have direct input uh on everything that's going on. So um, you know, advocacy is at the heart of what we do as an as an association organization, but also there are very unique things that relate to dealing with the DOW, the Department of War now, uh, and regulations, et cetera. If you serve on a base or you serve a veterans community, that we have unparalleled um experience with. And that, you know, if somebody walks in and says, hey, I need to apply for my VA home loan, and you're not in a traditional strong military veterans area, you don't know how to do that. With us, you know, we we actually built out an entire series of pamphlets or educational documents, you know, for veterans and for active duty and also for the credit union teams for them to be, how do you deal with the military? How do you deal with the fact that, okay, I just got called up to active duty and that changes your status in terms of sometimes direct deposit or insurance and things like that? Or, you know, hey, I'm having an issue with uh somebody trying to come on to base, we have the exclusive agreement. How do we we have the ability to bring in decades upon decades of experience in leadership um to not only defense credit unions, but every credit union on how to navigate everything over at the DOW moving forward. And when you tag that with aggressive, nimble advocacy at the federal and state level, on both Capitol Hill and the halls of our regulators, the return on investment uh for a credit union leader is unparalleled.
SPEAKER_01:Before we go, think hard about how you can help support this podcast so we can do more interviews with more thoughtful leaders in the credit union world. What we're trying to figure out here in these podcasts is what's next for credit unions. What can they do to really, really, really make a difference in the financial scene? Can't all be megabanks, can it? It's my hope it won't all be megabanks. It'll always be a place for credit unions. That's what we're discussing here. So figure out how you can help. Get in touch with me. This is RJ McGarvey at gmail.com, Robert McGarvey again, and that's rjmeggarvey at gmail.com. Get in touch, we'll figure out a way that you can help. We need your support, we want your support, we thank you for your support. The CU2.0 podcast.