Fire and Water Cooking and Travel - The Fusion of Food, Cooking, and Travel

Episode #70 - My Guest David Parrish of SNS Grills makers of the Slow N' Sear

• darrin s wilson • Season 2 • Episode 70

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Check out this episode where i talk with David Parrish of SNS Grills about how he started the company, the success of the Slow N' Sear, and how that led him to create other products that back yard cooks love! You can find out more about SNS Grills on their web site snsgrills.com and you can find the Slow N Sear for your Weber Kettle on Amazon HERE - https://amzn.to/3hvA0ZD

Get Your Virtual Tickets for the 2020 Sous Vide Summit August 21st-23rd HERE  https://theisva.regfox.com/2020-sous-vide-summit?registrants.source=firewater

check out the Inkbird waterproof, rechargeable, digital, fast, and adjustable instant read thermometer Here  https://amzn.to/2CCT3ST 

Darrin Wilson :

Welcome back to the fire and water cooking podcast. I have another great guest today, but one of them get wanting to get on for a while now Mr. David Parrish. He is the owner of SNS grills. Formerly was adrenalyn barbecue company and the original Maker of the slow unscear. Welcome, David, thanks for being on. I really appreciate it.

David Parrish :

Thanks there, and I appreciate it. And I'm happy to be here.

Darrin Wilson :

Well, let's start with your career. I want to start how you got into the barbecue section. I know you started out you were in the military. So how did that lead you to be in the barbecue outdoor cooking and grilling business?

David Parrish :

Well, the The short answer to that question is I spent 45 years figuring out what I was going to do when I grow up. I went to college, you know, born and raised in Alabama, went to college at Auburn got a degree in physics thinking hey, I'm going to go into science. After that, I went into the Air Force flying c 130s. In the the navigator crew position. And while in the Air Force, I got a master's degree in computer information systems because I thought that would be something interesting to learn about due to family reasons, separated after 10 years, not nine years and change and went into corporate America, and it was back probably what is it? 20 1910 years 2020 1011 years ago, I got seriously seriously into barbecue. I always had an appreciation for it. But I never was really into doing it myself. And I just started consuming all the information I can find out. Find they're out on the interwebs the website that seemed the most easy To me was a major calm. So I did some research there. And there was another website that would pull out a lot of info from and the Greg blondor PhD in physics, he had done a lot of research into barbecue meathead had taken that research and kind of put it in layman's terms for the mass audience. So I found meatheads website first, and I found Greg's just soaked up that info. And next thing I know, I'm asking questions in the comments on meatheads website. And he would respond to me and that was great. And I was learning and eventually I started answering other people's questions on the website. And he has like, Hey, you seem to know a lot about this stuff. Why don't you become May, a moderator for us so I was my my beginnings and BBQ was as an unpaid moderator for hims calm.

Darrin Wilson :

So you've worked for meathead for free, and that's good.

David Parrish :

Well, I think it was definitely a good opportunity for me. Just to learn in that environment. There was a so much good information and definitely a desire to get past what people have always done because it was handed down from, you know, father to sign or whatever and really get into the science of how barbecue worked, and that that's what interested me. So I felt very fortunate to be in that crowd and I did start getting paid eventually. So it ended up being being a paid a paid gig.

Darrin Wilson :

Well, that's good. I love amazing ribs calm. I love meathead. He thinks the same way. Do barbecue should not be put in a box cooking shouldn't be put in a box. It's I love that's why I mixed you know the TV and cooking so there you know and outdoor cooking because I believe you can make some amazing food when you start combining cooking methods and doing different things. So that's one of the things I love about amazing ribs is that they will have you know, Dr. blonder puts the science to a lot of the stuff and dispels a lot of the myths and stuff that people get caught in their head where, you know, you have to use mustard as a binder. Well, you don't have to but I mean, it's people do it. I mean, but you know, you get those kind of traditionalists or or people that have to do things a certain way. And that's at least amazing ribs will point you in several different directions. He's one of the first ones that you know, with the Sufi view, you know, actually knew that it could do you know some stuff that you couldn't do any other way That's Yeah, you know, it's he's always been that way. And that's like I said, He's always looked at things a little bit different than a lot of the other traditional barbecue people. And that's what I really like about it as well. So,

David Parrish :

yeah, I think you know, one thing that's great about me here is he is very good at giving credit to wherever he gained some knowledge from and I know specific to C dq. He started by learning from chefsteps. And they had they had a collaboration. This is several years ago now. And they both did some ribs and compare notes and went and visited each other and from that meathead did his spin on CQ and you can make some great food that way to go back to one of your points a minute ago. I like the way that he kind of understands the process of hacking. Things happen. The other thing that I've also learned though, is that when somebody does have a really good recipe, and they tell you their technique, it probably makes really good food. So I don't necessarily believe that the way one person tells you how to cook ribs or cook brisket is correct. I think there's 1000 different ways to make a good brisket, a good chicken, a good Turkey, what have you. What I really like to do myself is to understand why those recipes are good. And then share that with our customers so that we're enabling them to use our products to cook in the manner they want to, you know, if it's the way I cook, or the way they want to, you know, learn from someone on YouTube. Or a book author or TV or what have you. So we just give them the tools, we give them the know how, and then we just try to set them up to succeed.

Darrin Wilson :

Exactly. And the tools can be used in many different ways, you know, and that's why I'm not really locked into any specific grill or any brand or I've just never been that way. It's the same way with cooking methods people get locked up, it's kind of like the brandy thing you know, where a Big Green Egg is the only you know kamado grill that I can look at because it's a big green egg and it's been around forever. And, you know, people do that with with just about everything, including cooking methods. It's like, I can only write brisket, you know, barbecue style, well, now you can cook brisket in another, you know, yeah, it's not gonna be smoky, let's be a different thing. But, you know, so I'm totally anti, you know, that type of attitude. And one of the things I like to do is try to expand people's minds and show them how they can use different products and different tools and different cooking methods different ways and create great food and not get locked into something. One of the things that your first product that came out with a slow and sear did that it took a cooking you know, device, the Weber kettle, and you made a tool that could make that Weber kettle do a lot more than it was. So let's talk about the slow unscear and how that started how your idea for that started? I guess it was when you were working at amazing ribs. Correct?

David Parrish :

Exactly. We I eventually ended up launching a paid member membership program with a razor calm and it's called the pitmaster Club. It's great club you guys shop. Yeah. And I was the I was the pitboss or the moderator for the or the pit which is the forum that comes with that club. Amazing ribs has products that they recommend. And we would, you know, the people that read the website, they buy those products and they come and ask us questions, how to use them or whatever. And we see that and we saw people struggling with their charcoal kettle grills, you know, they even though we were giving them tips and techniques and they would come back and say, it's just not performing the way I want it to. So it was late one evening. I had another moderator Husky Aaron Lyons, we're having a conversation and the the idea of just creating a water wall in a grill to take the radiant heat out of the The cooking combination is that radiant heat in a grill that prevents you from smoking. So that conversation and you know,it was just an interesting journey because at the time I had a corporate job, this was definitely just at nighttime part time gig, Husky and I had we had what we thought was a really good idea. And, and, and what you realize there though is the idea is just it's just the 1% of having a successful product and having a business, you know, finding tinkering, I had to teach myself CAD so I could design something in a 3d space that I could send to a manufacturer and then finding a manufacturer that will do anything for you because these manufacturers They want a sure thing they want repeat business they don't want to spend five months figure out how to make your product and then they make one and then they're done. You know, a lot of that was was was complicated but I had a neighbor that put me in touch with a local job shop. We, we made the slogans here and this was early, late 2014, early 2015 and I started using it I just immediately knew like Hey, are you still there?

Darrin Wilson :

Yeah, I just, I'm sharing my screen. Oh, okay, that's showing the slides here. So I just want people to see what we're talking about here because Okay, this is like your original design or the slogan Siri even though it may have had some changes down the road, but this is basically what it is. It turns your kettle into a two zone cooking machine pretty much.

David Parrish :

Exactly. So He we made them I put one in a grill. I started using it and it was just astounding it how well it worked. So I started making more and I sent one to meathead meathead. I like this thing. What do you think? And I used to have it mounted on a wall, but we've moved in a it's in storage, but I have his email response framed. And he said, I absolutely love it. This is a great product. You gotta make them, I'll help you sell them or something to that effect. And I don't do the best meathead impression but so that that was the start. And then it was just a getting into mass production. So we had a local job shop that can make them for like $300 apiece, which obviously you're not going to go to market doing that. I think that the cheapest we ever got them to make them was $100 each anyway. So a friend of mine Noah Glanville, from Pitt barrel cooker kind of took me under his wing you know, fellow military guy and he helped me find the mass a mass producer. And then today or three months later, we started making them and it it was from the very beginning it was a very successful product and five years later, it's my day job and my night job and my weekend job and my job while I'm sleeping right when I wake up or before I go to bed, etc. And I love it because you know the wall I'm 49 now but I'm doing what I want to do with my life and I'm getting paid to do it. So it's it's pretty freakin cool actually.

Darrin Wilson :

So how long was it from inception to when you started first? You know, your sold your first one to where you this? Could you go you went okay, I can actually You know, make a living doing this. How long was that span? Was it pretty much right away when you started first taking orders? Or?

David Parrish :

No, no. And one thing that is surprising. And as a guy that has a YouTube channel, you can appreciate this, it doesn't it success is a marathon. You know, as, as a YouTuber, you hope for 100 views on your first video and you know, 10 videos later and maybe get 500 and, you know, you make a you get you're really happy the first time you get 1000 subscribers. And what you find is it takes a constant commitment and effort, and there is no, overnight. Wow, I'm right. Yes. I mean, it doesn't it I won't say it never happens. But that's not

Darrin Wilson :

that's not the regular normal.

David Parrish :

It's not regular, and I certainly wasn't expecting advice that someone gave me was don't quit your day job. That is great advice. You can if if the business does not support you, and you can support the business, or run the business without having to use it to support your family, that's great. But to answer your question, I think we sold the first loads here in mid 2015. And I quit my day job. And 2017.

Darrin Wilson :

That's still pretty good two years, so that's good. And when you initially started marketing them, was it strictly, you know, word of mouth, was it through the pitmaster Club? Was it a little bit of both and just start saying, Okay, I got to find a different way to get this out, get the knowledge out to the people. I mean, that's the hardest part. Unless you drop a lot of money on advertising, it's, you know, getting the word out and showing people what they need.

David Parrish :

Yeah. So as a small business is being run out of the house literally shipping these from the dining room. You don't have the budget to launch a product the way a large company would with a big spend on video and advertising and Google ads and all that. It was word of mouth for us. It was definitely the pitmaster Club. A lot of thanks to meathead and his support on amazing ribs calm wasn't too long after that, that Steven reichlin of barbecue Bible you know put it took us under his wing for a year or two and help us that it was a lot of it's it's definitely a marathon you know, it's not a there's no one source or thing I can point to and say that's what made me successful. Amazing reps calm get started YouTube Definitely took us to the next level I call 2017. The year of YouTube for us because I went in, it's hard to believe this is three years ago because it feels like yesterday I flew all around the US to a bunch of youtubers homes and we cook steak using the slow and seer and what I call the the color great technique where we use radiant energy from the slow and sear and and no conductive energy from the grade to do the searing. And this was something that I I did this because we were having such a great technique and it works so well when properly executed. But it is not intuitive for people that have grown up with most other charcoal grills like cooking with radiant heat and trying to take the grade out of the equation just doesn't make sense. So but 2017 and that being a big year because of YouTube so it there's a lot of it that mentioned it's a marathon

Darrin Wilson :

and yeah, I know I had my own business before where it was my sole source of income and I was laid off this is you know, 10 years ago I you know, sold home theater equipment through the internet and, and stuff and I know I work more I worked harder on that than I ever worked on a job job. You know, when I work for a company Absolutely. And I got paid a lot less I got paid a lot less but it's a lot more rewarding because you're creating something and doing something that you put all your your blood and sweat and tears into. So you develop the slow and sear and then the spin great. And I remember watching a lot of those videos that you're talking about. And you had the spin great which actually incorporates the you know, your cold great technique incorporates that with the slow and sear so How often how long ago after you develop the slowest ear was that Stingray developed?

David Parrish :

Let's see it the Genesis his idea was that Justin a baby back maniac. So everybody go check out his YouTube channel. If you haven't, of course you'd have anyway, I was at Justin's house and we did our first video on how to grill. reverse your steak using the cold great technique. Credit Justin for that name cold, great technique. He during the editing process, he's like, dude, we got a call this something because it's awesome. And we got a call, which was a great idea. That's Justin.

Darrin Wilson :

Yeah, dude. We got to do this.

David Parrish :

So the one thing that we realized was the the regular grade that comes with the grill, it doesn't spin and we're trying to you know, we've got gloves and camera equipment. We're trying to cook It would be easy if you didn't have to grab both handles to spin the grade around. At the time, I was working with a manufacturer to make our own grade. And we just, I'm like, we got to figure out how to make these handles Stop hitting the tabs. And it just kind of came from that. So I forgot what the question was. I think it was 22 I guess is early 2017. With that product came around.

Darrin Wilson :

Yeah. Because that had been because you weren't you were using that in some of those videos where you went to the YouTuber, so it hadn't been too long after you started doing that with that where you decided to create your own great, and that really put that, you know, in the place where you could spend the great No, no problems like you said, You didn't have to pick it up and try to not burn yourself and all that and just made it a lot easier to be able to do that process for sure. So You seem to be able to look at problems and issues and develop new products. So you didn't stop there with with those two products. So I'm gonna go back into your website again so that we can kind of see some of the other products that you offer. Some of them are bundles of course, but you know you offer different kinds of slow and serious different sizes as well and then you've got the the dripping griddle pan

David Parrish :

and griddle pan. I you know that our customers dragged me kicking and screaming and to the idea of making the drip and griddle pan I kept telling him, nobody wants it, nobody's gonna buy it. You can just use FOIL to cover the indirect side. But people kept asking for it. So I said fine. We'll we'll make one and that was actually a pretty, pretty simple idea. You just make a pan that that's there. charcoal gray opposite this low in here. And that's what came up with that. And that's ended up being an extremely popular product. And I have people tell me, they love that pan this as much as they do this lemons here. So I want to thank my customers for giving me giving me that idea.

Darrin Wilson :

Well, that's another great thing when you listen to your customers, when they when they tell you things. I mean, a lot of companies don't do that, especially, you know, of course, the bigger corporate structures, it's kind of hard, but you know, for a company to listen to their customers, and to take some kind of design ideas and put them to the test and then offer them up is kind of unique anymore.

David Parrish :

As a small company, we kind of have that privilege. I mean, there is one product, and I hesitate to mention it because we're going to get a whole lot of feedback from this one that I can't make any more because it was we just couldn't make any money on them and the demand was so sporadic and that is Sloane's here for the ranch cattle all you ranch cattle owners out there love you guys go buy two excels. Anyway, we had this big, big ranch cattle edition slow into there. And you know, we can only make 10 or 20 at a time. And at first it was it was a fun project, I did a video in Colorado with a with the art rkV. But that that would be an example of a product that we no longer make, just because we're not quite as small as we used to be. But yeah, there's definitely as companies get bigger it they're not even interested in something unless it hits a certain revenue.

Darrin Wilson :

Sure, yeah. And something like that where you know, there's not many owners of that kettle because it is such an expense. So yeah, it's just something where, how many of those are you gonna actually sell a year and then they're gonna sit in inventory or you know, you're gonna pay extra to order less of less of that product. You know, that's a lot of people don't understand when when you do that when you have a specialty product, it costs much more to make it because it's not a high demand thing where you can order you know, a boatload of them, you know, to sell them, you know, the more you sell the cheaper they are the make because you can spread that you can spread that expense over, you know, a big number, but yeah, it's so I understand that it's really hard to offer a specialty item like that and still make it profitable for you or even, you know, at a price point that somebody is actually going to pay for it. Like you said when you initially did the SLO unscear it cost you $300 to make it you know, what are you gonna sell it for, you know, $400 nobody's gonna pay that you know, so right. But Alright, so let's let's go down to some other stuff. So now, what was it last year or the year before where you came out with the slow unscear kamado grill

David Parrish :

Yeah,

Darrin Wilson :

I want to talk about what what made you start looking at developing your own grill because it's a lot different from looking at accessories to actually coming out with a grill that you're going to rely on your own brand name for. Because there's a lot of manufacturers out there grills that struggle every day. You know, when you're competing with somebody like you know, Big Green Egg, especially in the commodity market. Oh, and some of the others that are out there.

David Parrish :

So I guess the reason I did it is because I didn't know any better. seemed like a good idea at the time. Shortly before that, though, we had a lot of people that were not our customers that wanted a slogan seer and it was specific to Big Green Egg and all the other ceramic cookers out there. They're like I want to slow and see here. For my tomato, please make it or which one do I buy? And I had to reply to them. We We We don't have a slogans here for your tomato. I tried really hard to create a slogan here for a tomato. But the problem with all of the commodity designs out there from the perspective of retrofitting a slow answer into it is that the cooking grades rest on the fireable. And we had to suspend the cooking grade above the fireable so that we could install the summons here underneath it. Because we could not make a summons here, or the kamado grills that were on the market, and popular enough to make a summons here for we decided to make our own kamado We were actually pursuing three or four different grille designs at the time. A lot of them just ended up being too expensive for a small company like mine to make. The kamado ended up being one of the very first ones that was made sense monetarily like we could make them at a cost that will allow us to sell them at a profit. And the very first time I use it, like I own several tomatoes, and the very first time I used it, I realized that this solves it solved a problem that other tomato owners would appreciate having the solution for. So we immediately took that to market and and it's it's been very successful. It's Especially this year, I think as you have with the the Weber crowd you know you've got your Big Green Egg kamado Joe your promos, Weber summit being new to the new to the crowd. I know you're a Kj owner. There was a lot of pushback in the beginning. So we had to overcome that. And now that we've been around a year and people see that we are actually serious about making this grill and that actually does work pretty well. And now, they blew up they flew out of their warehouse and we're having to double our orders again. So the answer the question I'm having sometimes I start rambling.

Darrin Wilson :

No, yeah, it pretty much and I can understand where especially with the commodities because they are different sizes. I mean, each company and I know that you know, big rain come out of Joe kind of keep the same sizes but there's other like divisions and and some others that are out there. Like the Primo it's totally a different shape, it's kind of hard for you to say I want to develop a you know slow and sear for each one of these different brands or commodities or sizes of tomatoes. Because well just like going back to the you know, the ranch, you know, the extra large kettle, it's, you know, the, how much demand you're going to have every time you pick a different one. So yeah, it would be much easier to develop your own kamado that it's incorporated into the design to use that so that he can definitely offer all those benefits and say, Hey, you know this this design is totally different than what you're going to be able to get on a Big Green Egg or come out of Joe or Primo because it does incorporate the slow and sear and the same things that you can do on the kettle you can do with this tomato if not even better or more because of the insulation and what have you and just the way commodities work, you know, different than than the kettles, but I totally can understand why How that's for sure. So let's talk about the kettle because this is the new thing that's come out and I think a lot of people were wanting you or expecting you to release a kettle way before the tomato. But I think like you said it, you wanted to take more time and make sure that you got the right manufacturer partner and everything else and designed the kettle that's gonna really compete against the Weber that's been entrenched in that, you know, that brand is just everybody sees a kettle, they automatically think Weber. So how'd that go about? How'd you go about designing that kettle and let's talk about some of the stuff you put into this to make it different than a Weber.

David Parrish :

Yeah, you know the big difference between the tomato sauce here tomato and the Sloane's here kettle grill is also we couldn't put this lemons here and they exist in commodities on the market. So it made sense for us to bring that tomorrow. Same as we had it with with the kettle. There are many many many Weber kettles with low in series in them right now and very happy customers so that need was not as you know, it just wasn't as big of a priority so it allowed us to take more time and the design it was more difficult to find someone that made a kettle grill where we were happy with the quality. Most companies that compete in the kettle space, try to do it on price. Right. And they make everything as cheaply as they can. I can't tell you how many samples we received and it was a no before you can even get it out of the box.

Darrin Wilson :

A lot of a lot of them don't let you do any kind of custom They're just will stick your name on it, but this is this is the way it is.

David Parrish :

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. So we found a manufacturing partner that was willing to let us do pretty much everything we wanted to do. As long as we could afford the tooling to tool up for it, and we took our time we, you know, we're not expecting as long as your kettle grill to replace Weber kettles, but for people that appreciate cooking with slogans here and you know, they're enthusiastic about using digital thermometers or thermostat controllers. They like having the side shelf or appreciate the extra three inches of height that we have. We have more airflow which allows you to cook at higher convective temperatures more easily while using this low and seer lid bail. makes it so easy to just have the lid off to the side and it's still 90 degrees up instead of kind of hanging over the kettle like the three legged design requires which is why we have four legs. it you know being able to put the thermometer on below the event so that is more accurately reflecting the temperatures that you're actually cooking at when you're smoking or baking or what have you. So people that use our products are using the slogans here to cook the way we teach them. They're going to love this kettle because it's all the modifications that they have done or I have done or we have wanted to do to the candles that we had.

Darrin Wilson :

And one of the things I like is that you're not you have the different options. They don't have to buy it with the slogans here because if they already have a Weber kettle and they have the solutions here already, they don't have to, you know, actually buy it you know about buy another solution. sear you know to me Oh,

David Parrish :

that's interesting. We did not anticipate the demand to to be what it was. When we first took the kettle to market we had it as a pre order without the summons here because the assumption was anybody buying it already has here we click quickly realize that there was a demand from new customers that wanted a package with this lens here. So now that we have them and we've launched it, we've we now bring the one with us loans here or with us loans here Deluxe, whichever one you prefer. We even created a video recently that shows the difference to help people make that decision. But we definitely our expectation is anybody that owns us loans here cattle is going to have a song in here. So that version without this loan here, you can still do it. But we're very helpful that if you choose to buy it that way, you already have a sponsor.

Darrin Wilson :

Exactly. So let's talk about some of the things that you incorporated into this kettle that are not in the Weber that you looked at and said this is what we need to do this is what our customers are demanding or this is what will make this a different kettle than the Weber kettle.

David Parrish :

Sure. So, a couple of the easy ones was were was just having ports to run your digital probe wires into so that you can measure the indirect temperature of your pit as well as the temperature of your meat without having to run wires through the top bed or drill a hole yourself in the kettle or crimp the wires between the bowl and the lid. That kind of thing. The other another thing that was a little difficult about using a Weber kettle is you have to use the ash sweet system or air into Take with our kettle, we have the smoke port, which you can see in that picture off to the bottom right there. That's that one inch diameter port. That's the smoke board. So you can fully close the ash sweep so that no air comes in from there, all the air comes in from the smoke board. And that gives you much better control of that air intake. And you don't have to get on your hands and knees to see where your where your ash sweep is at when you're trying to control your, your, your airflow for so so people trying to cook low and slow that whoever kettle they know the struggle you got to get on your knees, the guy look down under there to figure out where the ashes with is that that smoke port solves that problem. And it's also one inch in diameter which is the hole size that all of the thermostatic controllers in the world. Get recommend so if you want a thermostat controller then dot you know we've already got that port for you though in most cases I think the the kettle runs so well that you don't really need it maybe for an overnight cook.

Darrin Wilson :

Yeah, I know the barbecue Guru has a you know adapter that you need to drill a hole in the or Weber kettle in order to use it. So this makes it that that you know adapter that they have will fit right on that hole and you don't have to worry about placing it in the wrong spot or you know voiding your warranty or anything like that because you know, I just actually put a barbecue guru on a different grill and a hasty bake stainless steel grill because there's no way to put one on there unless you drill a hole but you know, you pretty much void your warranty and you know you could mess it up you can scratch it up even if you don't do it the right way. I mean it's just so that's it that is definitely see that being a benefit to where like Yeah, not everybody's going to need that. But you want to have the option if you're doing a low and slow or an overnight cook and you don't want to sit there and babysit it, you know, it's it's good to have that because it'll also save you, you know, some fuel and stuff too. So, you know, it's just a good thing to have for sure.

David Parrish :

Absolutely.

Darrin Wilson :

Now putting the thermostat on the, on the other side there, right, right under the vent. What what's the benefit to that because I've heard a lot of people say that that's actually the best place to put your your thermostat.

David Parrish :

So and there right. One thing that you want to avoid is the heat flows from the slow interior over to your exhaust vent and then out when you have a thermometer in between the slow interior and the exhaust vent. It's measuring heat that exhausting through The kettle which is going to be hotter than the heat that is in the indirect side of the kettle that's actually cooking your food. So by putting the thermometer below that exhausted and closer to the me It ends up being much more accurate. Weber's have the thermometer on the opposite side of the exhaust fan. And we tell people to put the exhaust vent over the food. So the thermometers literally right over the summons here. The temperatures that you read on that gauge are anywhere from 75 to 125. Maybe even more higher than what you're actually cooking yet indirect and that's when cooking to 25 to 250. It gets even more often she could get hotter temperatures. Our thermometer is going to be close enough to the temperatures you would read the digital thermometer that you can pretty much rely on it. It's anywhere From zero to 20 degrees hotter than then what you typically read on the indirect side.