Talking D&T

TD&T094 Talking with Drew Wicken about researching online learning

March 22, 2022 Dr Alison Hardy; Drew Wicken Episode 94
Talking D&T
TD&T094 Talking with Drew Wicken about researching online learning
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, Drew Wicken shares his experiences of doing an MA and what he discovered about D&T online learning


Episode transcript

Mentioned in this episode

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Alison Hardy:

Right. It's a glorious day where I answer basic. What's it what's right with you this morning? DREW? Is it good? Actually, the weather is beautiful blue sky and sunshine.

Drew Wicken:

Yeah, so we're a few days after storm Franklin. And suddenly the sun is out. And it feels amazing. It absolutely beautiful out there. So as you have already guessed, I'm with somebody called Drew. This morning. I'm with Drew Wicken. And we've had some conversations before about design and technology. But this time I've got drew on to come and talk about his research. If you're a regular listener, you know, I like to talk about people's research and design and technology. So let's hand over to you drew, and you can tell us a little bit about yourself where you are, what you do, and so on. Okay, go. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me here. It's much appreciated. Yeah, my name is Drew wick and I. I'm the director for design technology for the COBE academies trust, this address that I work for. And I've been doing that for a fair few years now. And taught and worked in different parts of the country, started in London and salary in the West Midlands, and Stoke on Trent. And now, obviously, going all over the place in the north of England in the Midlands, which is a fascinating and wonderful job. truly privileged to, to do that, and have some sort of influence over DMT and a much wider set, then then what normally you get to do. Yeah, and then, as you say, I'm very, I've been doing my masters for the last, what, three years, although that the pandemic extended that a little bit longer. But thankfully, got to the end of it, and thoroughly enjoyed that sort of opportunity to submit something. And then to get the feedback. And yeah, getting that email to say you've got your result, although I was very nervous about clicking on that email. But it was yeah, it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. And I learned so much over those years that I just didn't even sort of contemplate before doing my Masters, which I think hopefully, in the long term will make me a stronger teacher, leader, whatever it might be. Yeah, it does. It does change the way you think they're doing a Masters people. So if there's all sorts of misconceptions, I think about doing a masters and some. So I think it's about qualification. But actually, it does change your mind saying you can't you can't look at things in the same way again, after you've done

Alison Hardy:

no, absolutely not no one. Now, what has been seen, as they say cannot be unseen. So but I think for the better to be honest, because it has, it's opened my eyes to things whilst I did a degree with Qt s for design technology when those used to exist. And I went to Greenwich University, I know that doesn't exist anymore, that the deity department, sadly, but I did it down there. I obviously got to experience more educational theory over the three years, and he would do with say, a traditional PGCE route. So I had, you know, a few more areas that we sort of covered and discussed. But then going in to do the AMA just sort of brought to bear even more educational theory and understanding, but also leadership, understanding the governance and things like that, that just really before that I knew a little bit about, but thanks to doing that course, really brought home to me and helped better give me a secure understanding of the sort of multifaceted world of education, I suppose.

Drew Wicken:

Yeah, it's, it's quite interesting, because it kind of gets you to read different things and get different viewpoints. And I presume on your masters, you had a whole range of people from different backgrounds and experiences. Yeah. And they give you give us such a different insight it when I talk about masters that I lead and I talk to people, I think everyone on the course I talk about that it gives you a depth and a breadth. And the breadth is not just from the things that we teach you on the course. But it's the breadth of experience you get from from your peers. It was huge. i That was the take you outside.

Alison Hardy:

Absolutely it was it was the thing that was the most sort of eye opening because I remember going to the very first lecture years ago at the university, I should say I did my masters at Wolverhampton university because it was sort of geographically the closest for me and the offer that I got. And I remember going to the first lecture and and talking to some people and I was expecting I know sounds really silly. Now looking back in hindsight, that was just gonna be teachers or people to do schools, but there were people from prisons. There were people from RAF Cosford down the road and they were really interested to talk to some of the stories I've got from them a brilliant, nothing to do with education, just interest in what they do in the RAF. And then there were people from local authority and actually just private business, but they were they're doing an MA in education because actually, it certainly brought home to me just how wide reaching education actually is not just in a classroom, but actually in a prison, where they have a, you know, a department to do with, you know, Educational Studies or local authority to do with educational policy across the whole local authority, or whatever it might be. It was, it was really did really bring it home that just how far reaching an MA like this can actually be.

Drew Wicken:

Yeah, and it does make you realise that, that education isn't owned just by schools, or colleges, or universities, but kind of the obvious, you know, you know, a mine, we've had people from early years, as you say, prison education. I have peers from the university. So he colleagues lecturer on the course as well. And, you know, from all across the university, I mean, I've currently got Max Pownal, who's been on the podcast, and you know, he's in product design. He's doing it because he wants to develop an understanding around education, you feel secure in his subjects, and so on. So So yeah, so we had a brief conversation before we started about what your master's topic was. So, so your dissertation, the final thing, because you write this dissertation, don't you? And at the end of the day, you and your supervisors, and the markers read it. And that's it. So I think it was great to get people on to come and talk about what they've done. So come on, what did you research and why?

Alison Hardy:

So my original proposal was pre pandemic, which had to get thrown out. And then when the lockdown and everything happened in 2020, we I had to go right back to the beginning, my supervisor was so supportive and really gave me a good steer of direction. So I then change it because I was for a month or so after the first lockdown in the March. I mean, what do I do? How, what can I actually focus on? And then it suddenly came to me sitting in front of a computer screen, right? Well, we now sort of gone very deep into this sort of online learning now, because that's the only way kids could access learning. So I focus it on digital learning platforms, things like Google Classroom, Microsoft Teams, and there were a few others as well that have banded around how that can support the teaching of design and technology. And actually, can they offer opportunities that maybe weren't so readily available with traditional, you know, chalk and talk teaching? That, actually, thanks to the, you know, the push to online learning, because of the terrible circumstances we're in globally, actually, it's going to bring about some longer term changes that could really benefit our subject, and specifically, our subject design and technology.

Drew Wicken:

Yeah, so Well, okay, so, so you set out to explore, but you say, different platforms, different ways of teaching the subject? Is that what you were looking at?

Alison Hardy:

I focused specifically on Google Classroom, specifically, because that was the one I had most access to. And actually, at the time, it was the one that the it was, seemed to be more popular than some of the others. I know. Other platforms have sort of crept up things like Microsoft Teams, and a few others in the background for primary have have sort of come into the forefront. But it was one that I had most access to seem to be the most common, commonly used platform at the time, but I did still touch on the others, but only very briefly, it was mainly focused on Google Classroom.

Drew Wicken:

So what did you study involved in? What were you? What were you looking to explore? And how did you do it? Did you interview questions?

Alison Hardy:

Yeah. So it was it was a qualitative sort of piece of research, of course. And I had to do all of my interviews, on time. No, nothing was done in person. It was all done through the magic of the internet, which actually did make things quite fluid. And quite, I suppose people were more readily available. I know it sounds weird. Actually, if it was in person, I think, you know, trying to bring everyone together in a room can be quite difficult, because I could do it online at a time that suited them. And we were all stuck in our houses anyway. Suddenly, people were more available. And I just put out a tweet, saying, if anyone's got any views and opinions on Google Classroom for for DVT, or something along those lines, let me know I'd love to discuss an interview for my for my AMA and actually, I got quite a few people came forward and said, Yeah, I'd love to talk to you about that. And thanks to all those who who did. You helped shape it massively the research. So it was done through all of that into interviews, discussions that were had with those teachers, and then I didn't really take into account or look at the students side of things because It was so difficult at the time to be able to get students to talk for things like this or actually have them together to have a discussion in the q&a. So, because of the logistics are going to be too hard and the ethics behind it would have required more sort of scrutiny. I just purely focus it from a teacher point of view so I could get those interviews done, and the research put together. And the three areas that I looked into for the research, the first one was to do with the curriculum design, actually, how can I design and technology curriculum be taught digitally? Can it be right? Because obviously, you think about the practical element of the subject, how does that actually fit with this digital type of platform? The other one was to do with questioning? And actually, how can the question that you give to the kids, be more formative, and actually allow for a discussion and greater sort of depth of understanding of what they're doing? And then that led into feedback, actually, how can what feedback we give to our students be more cohesive, and actually more interactive so that they can see the feedback and respond in a more for them, because of the way these children have been brought up as what they call the iGeneration. Very often, actually, can this type of feedback where it's more readily available for a phone or, you know, a website? Can that actually engage students more into their lives than just you know, in a, an exercise book or a sticky note? So it sort of that was the golden thread about bringing it all together through to for digital learning?

Drew Wicken:

Right, okay. Okay. Quite, quite, quite a breadth? Yes. Are you around around what you were doing?

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, I just remember my advice, I just think you've got too much doing here. Should be fine. Don't worry.

Drew Wicken:

Yeah. And it's always a concern I have, you know, when I talk to my students around the dissertation, you know, because because they're really passionate about what they do, regardless of which part of education they come from, or they've come with a particular thing very much. In my part, I'm students, I've got full time students, doing the Masters Well, feeling slightly different makeup within the full time, but the part time was because they are doing their practice that they're teaching, or, you know, they work in education, or they're doing strap strategy and education, they want to make an impact, they want to make something different. But it's generally huge. And I'm like, you can just bring this down a little bit and make it a little bit smaller. Because if it's too broad, it's kind of just not possible. It's very difficult to, as you say, to keep that thread through. But also, you could potentially end up with so much data, it's time bound about the analysis part of it. I'm sure you've found that doing the analysis takes it's, it's exciting. It's boring, it's hard. Oh, yes. It's repetitive. Oh, you lose sight of what it is that you're looking for. And so yeah, so keeping it contained, is a real skill, I think within doing research.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, trying to fix everything, because you could go off in so many different tangents. So every, I mean, that's what I focus on in the end. But actually, if I think right back to the beginning, when I was coming up with what the question, oh, they were, they were so vast, you know, as you say, it just wouldn't have been possible to do and even for a PhD, you know, that you need to bring it far, far, far more sort of in line with, with sort of just a few key strands. And even those strands, as you say, a very wide region. But it allowed for a conversation to be had. That hopefully was concise. And yeah, the data analysis, oh, God, that was, yeah, a very laborious task, because everything had been recorded. So I then put it into some software to sort of transcribe it. Because if people have got, you know, not great mics, or they've got sick accents or whatever, it might have been some of the words that you have to go through every line by line, making sure that listening to it, and then seeing what has been written, and making sure that it reflects in hours, hours and hours and hours of that, and then you go back through and then highlight where's their links? And yeah, yeah,

Drew Wicken:

yeah, yeah. So when I did my doctorate, so the I use some software, but, you know, AI software wasn't kind of so prevalent when I did my first lot of interviews in 2020 12. And so did some transcription myself, and then I managed to get some funding to pay somebody to transcribe really. Yeah, luckily you Yeah, and And I've just put a bid in and being successful without and I've put in 300 pounds worth of transcription service. There's all sorts of reasons why we use that at the university is partly because I use, I don't really use I use otter, for my transcribing for the podcast, yeah. Which is really great. But we can't use that as a university because of security around access to the transcriptions and search. So we have to use preferred providers to kind of it's for the participants, you know, an ethics reason. But yeah, that whole thing and then listening through and checking and, and at the time, I don't know about you, when I did my first law, I was like, I've got to get this. Absolutely, I've got to get the language. Absolutely right. And then you start to configure, you start to relax a little bit, you know, where the bits are, that it's important to get that search spot on? Where do you know, I have some colleagues in, in psychology, for example, they're really interested in where the pauses are, right? And the rooms and the hours because, because that for them suggests something else in their in their way they're looking at it. Whereas for you and I were looking at the content of what people say,

Alison Hardy:

I got rid of pretty much all of those ohms and ahhs and people are, I'm probably doing it right now. In fact, I've just done it, where you repeat something I picked picks up everything, I need to get rid of just let's have just one eye there and get rid of that. And it was really nitpicky. But as you say, as I was going further and further through all the different transcripts of that I think I've had about in the end about 10 Different teachers that are given feedback to me for the questions that I'd asked. I just got to the point where it doesn't matter that bit. What I'm not more needing is actually what are they saying about design technology to do with this question with Google Classroom, and that was far more usable. And then I could take those quotations and put it into my analysis, and conclusions and stuff. That then helped me in. Yeah, it was a laborious task. And I said already, but it was over when it was done.

Drew Wicken:

But equally while you're doing it, you discover all sorts of things. Don't be huge. You start to pick out stuff. Absolutely. Yeah. But yeah. So what were some of the things that you discovered that what were the key findings?

Alison Hardy:

Firstly, it was to do that. And I know this, for me, it was a bit of a step back. But at the end out of the three questions, the one to do with the sort of the formative questions and stuff, actually, there was no answer. There was no clear answer from any of the people that were interviewed. So where were the other areas? I'd sort of got clear, distinct, yes, Google Classroom can support to do with the curriculum to do with marking and feedback. But actually, when it came to sort of formative style, questioning and feedback and go along the way at the works of, of that area, actually, nobody had a clear response, there was no real links. And it was only through doing the analysis. And looking at those questions and highlighting those bits of areas that I hadn't realised that until doing it, and reviewing what had been said that when there's absolutely no link here, I cannot draw any conclusions from this. And that for me, first, I went to my supervisor and said, is that okay? I haven't got anything here. This is this is leading further research and said, That's exactly it. This is where you then lead into your conclusion said, whilst these areas have drawn conclusions, this one hasn't. Therefore, further research into this would be required. And I for I suppose, because, you know, being a teacher, you always want the kids to have a conclusion. And yes, everything worked. And it was fine. But this was a huge area of my research that there was no clear, definitive answer. Everybody was doing something different. The other thing I actually found was the everybody's interpretation of what formative assessment or formative evaluation or responsive teaching whatever you want to call it these days. Actually, everybody's understanding that was completely different. So there was another question there actually, is the reason why the data that I was getting back was so wide and varied, because actually, people's understanding of this area is so wide and very, you know, curriculum is quite set, because it's set by the, you know, the national curriculum in England. You know, feedback is usually quite set because you have a marking and feedback policy within the school. But actually, formative style assessment is so wide and varied. That that, possibly is one of the reasons, along with many others that I said that there is no clear answer as to whether there is a link between diente Google classroom and actually helping to build that formative narrative between you and the students. So that was a an eye opener for me, and it actually made me realise I don't have to have All the answers, I can actually have still I can I can finish a piece of work with more questions for somebody else to take up or, you know me to do in a different piece of work another day. Yeah,

Drew Wicken:

it's interesting how you do get to a point. And and I think something what you said there about, you know, like the children, you want to have a definite answer, we want them to have definite answer. Well, actually, maybe in design technology we don't. I keep I keep coming back and using the word resolution, which is the word ID good word. Think about we get to a resolution. Yeah. Because we're, we've been able to resolve it as far as we can get with what we currently know or understand. But later on, when we have more information, or a new material, or a new approach, or a new process, or some new, you know, new data that we've collected from participant that we're talking research or design, then the resolution moves on.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's a really good way of putting it I like that resolution, instead of evaluation, or conclusion. Where's the resolution from this?

Drew Wicken:

Yeah, well, I mean, you put a conclusion in your research, and we always want a conclusion. But the conclusion is, is this as far as we can get? Yeah. Yeah. In the timeframe? Outstanding we currently have Yeah,

Alison Hardy:

yeah, this is the word limit that I'm allowed. I can't carry on. I that was something else that I never had written academically before. I've been brutally frank, even in my degree that the the academic writing that we did was was far a few between even though we did bits, and it wasn't really I wasn't really showed how to do proper academic writing is only by going to do the AMA that I have learned so much about how to write and actually, I'm a terrible writer, to be brutally frank anyway, I need a lot of help editing. But it that staring at that abyss, I'll be brutally honest, at the beginning 20,000 words, I know some masters are less, some are more, but ours was was set at 20,000? How am I going to do 20,000 words on this? I got to the end of it, how am I going to edit this down to 20,000 words? Because I just You do everything in silos, you know, with our do this bit and then this bit in this when you start to knit them together and you go way over? What do I do, and you have to really go through an edit. And I remember, I think something that you'd said in a previous podcast about sit in a room and read your masters in person out loud. And I did that, and it helped me. Before I was hiding whether something felt like it was a good sentence. But also it helped me go without which is a pointless sentence. Let's get rid of that. And it really did

Drew Wicken:

help me sort of think, think Where's where's that come from? Yeah, you know, what goes back to what you were saying about the thread? Yes. Like,

Alison Hardy:

what was the point of that sentence? Doesn't even make any sense? Get rid of it. So yeah, at first you think? No, how am I going to do this, and then you get in, and you structure how you're going to do it. I've got a moleskin notebook somewhere, I put it on there, there is there that's just full of notes, and references and quotes. And I'm gonna do this here and it's highlighted, you just have to, I found by having everything written down in that notebook, I could come back to it because it takes a whole year. You know, so what you're doing, let's say in January, if you're doing a longer calendar year, although I didn't want you doing say January and you come back to in July, you've completely forgotten so by having it written down and Notes and references and you know, ISBN numbers, you can quickly go back and find it. So, top tip, get a moleskin and write things down constantly. That's what I found.

Drew Wicken:

When I was just while you were talking, I was looking because i i I didn't particularly use a a hog, you know, paper note notebook. And I had a little I had a bit but I'm more used Evernote. Yeah. And I I've still got my notebook in Evernote, which is my PhD, because I can't bear myself to get rid of it. And I can't even see how many notes I've got in here. But I think there's like over 700 notes within my PhD notebook. And then if I still got my folder on my Mac with all of my PhD versions, because I would kind of record it every day. I think I might have deleted quite a lot of them now. But you know, I was saving it every day. I could kind of go back if I need to check anything. Oh, I've got hundreds I just can't bear to get rid of them because the amount of work it took. But I just

Alison Hardy:

I've got the moleskin in my hand right now because you say that I'm just cuz he's literally still on my desk. And I'm just going through all these notes. Most of it doesn't make any sense to me, to be honest. But you know, I've put dates and I've highlighted things and just scribbled it synthesis down. And it's structure and tick lists on how to do this, this and this, but it did help you whether it's an actual book, or Evernote or whatever you feel comfortable using, it did help me because it just goes on for such a long time, you need something to be able to scribble down or, you know, make a digital note on however you do it because you do forget things. And when you come to do Your I was I did my referencing as I was going through, but I didn't do the big reference, you know, at the end where you've got all of them line by line, I was keeping a track of them in a an online website. But there was some that I hadn't put in and about a month or so I was going through and No, I haven't got that reference. Now usually I find that thank because I've got stuff it down, it helped me build up my references at the end, because even though I'd got the in the body of text, I hadn't done the referencing at the end. So it did help massively having that really, really did. Because you forget things very easily.

Drew Wicken:

Yeah, and just catch them sometimes just the very act of capturing it. You know, whether it's written or typed spoken, you might never go back to that gnomes. But the fact that they've done it kind of takes away that carrying it around in your brain, but also, it does, it does help you it's like, it's like designing, sketching and such like that getting it out absolute modelling playing around it. And so what were the conclusions that what, what what did you recommend, as a result of your work?

Alison Hardy:

So the the conclusion? Well, I think we've got the formative one, there was no conclusions. But the other two, actually, from from the discussions that I had, and from my sort of viewpoint of the data that I got, actually designed technology, and the curriculum we looked at that can easily be sort of worked with a digital platform like Google Classroom, obviously, you've got Microsoft Teams. Now that's quite a prominent one, as well as a few others. And actually, the curriculum doesn't need to be adapted to make it so that it can be taught for a digital platform, actually, you can quite easily have an online learning platform, such as those that we've spoken about, and still be able to deliver a design and technology quickly. And bear in mind as well. When this research was done. It was during lockdowns, I will say because we, you know, the some of the rivers were coming in and out. And actually they, we were having to adapt to that. So we were making things work. And actually, most people said, we can deliver the majority of the curriculum, the only areas that were of concern were to do with any sort of practical skills to do with a workshop or design studio or in a food room. But that requires sort of a bigger area of study to work out how those, those areas could be used with a digital platform. Most people were sort of alluding to, you know, uploading videos and photographs and stuff like that. But actually, the other rows of our subject could be delivered through these platforms. And I suspect most people listening today probably have done that over the last two years. So they are testament to being able to deliver a DNP curriculum through one of these online digital platforms.

Drew Wicken:

So that a capitalist kept on the couch this now because I'm conscious about how there will be. No, right, it's right. But there's something there that you said that I think we need to come back and have another conversation about, which is around online learning. And what does that mean about how we learn in design and technology? Because I kind of have kind of been I've talked about a couple times in podcast, but embodied learning. Yeah, I'm not fully conscious or aware of what that means in practice and what theoretically it means. But let's come back and talk about that. Yeah, absolutely. Because being

Alison Hardy:

somebody who was very, very much involved in the Oak, National Academy DMT lessons, actually, it brought, and it was nice that I was doing that at the same time as the AMA because it was a it was a sort of juxtaposition actually, that yeah, it was it was definitely a different style of online learning, but it did bring about better understanding for me, and how you can really deliver DMT through a digital platform. So yeah, there is a lot more there is one area that I'm really, really interested in. Very interested in going forward.

Drew Wicken:

Right? Yeah. So there's like this, there's a couple of things that we're gonna we're gonna come back and have another episode on this because this was me about getting you on to talk about doing your masters but so we're going to talk about, you know, what's kind of lost or gained by online learning and d and t. And then some more detail about what online learning and Danti actually looks like. You know, and actually when when Well record that one as a video that could be quite Yeah. And that we could do that as a video and do some screen Search Screen Share, and we could make it as a live record, I think we're watching. Ben, I'm away, often now with

Alison Hardy:

so many ideas.

Drew Wicken:

Right? Okay, so because this is transcribing, I don't have to write that down. I get me to remember those two things. And that we were going to talk about, and the work that you're doing with K stabilus as part of the remke project, but again, I think we're kind of out of time to go back to that. Yep. Yep. Yep, definitely. Actually, again, that will be good to get you on when that project is up and running. And for people who've started kind of talking people who are listening, going, What are you talking about? So, okay, so there's a project that's been led by remke a kind of what remke surname is in the Netherlands? What's it called Making? Design Learning visible making design learning visible? Right, okay. And if people in the UK attended the DMT research meet a couple of weeks ago, Ranchi spoke at that, and Kay was there to Drew is one of the schools can, you know, that's kind of evolved in the six schools, I think. I think it's six schools, I think five or so. Yeah. And so it's involving at a net schools in the Netherlands, India, Israel, Ireland.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, yeah, go with that.

Drew Wicken:

And possibly, possibly somewhere else that we can't remember. So we're gonna get you on to talk about that good to have ranking. But we can kind of work something out to talk about that about making design learning visible, that'd be really great. So that's three more podcasts I'm going to do with you can have too much of a good thing. This is what happens when this when the sun comes out, and we get creative juices going. definitely exciting. Yeah. But no, but it's been really interesting to hear about how you've done your masters managed, it kind of worked around things in a pandemic, the benefits to you within DMT. And just the beauty of being able to do research and DMT. And so I suppose the next thing is to be saying, how are you going to share your work? Are you writing an article for Dan to practice? Has Kay persuaded you yet to write a journal article?

Alison Hardy:

He has asked me in my many meetings with her to do with obviously the other research project. I haven't got round to doing that yet. There's nothing. I haven't for d&d practice. No, I haven't thought about writing an article for that, to be honest.

Drew Wicken:

I'm that for about 700 to 1400 words.

Alison Hardy:

Okay, fine. Yeah, I'll put that on the list of things in between everything else? Yeah, I haven't. I suppose it would be interesting. You're right, because it is DND research. And it is sometimes far and few between. and I'm more than happy to sort of put it into an article because there were some really interesting bits of research that I found from the literature review. But then actually some of the conclusions that were drawn so from the conversations might be interesting to colleagues out there in the DMT work, but I'm sure they will. Yeah, absolutely. I suspect all approach. Somebody at the association will probably get in contact with me or something and say,

Drew Wicken:

Oh, I might drop them an email and copy. Okay, great.

Alison Hardy:

Thanks.

Drew Wicken:

Well, you, you attended my writing thing? Yes. I did you know about how to approach it. So, you know, I'm finishing

Alison Hardy:

an article, literally today, for that matter. It will be with you, I guarantee for the blog, right. Okay. Yes. Yeah, that's another side.

Drew Wicken:

So yes, we'll put a link, we'll put a link to that in the show notes to the blog post, because that'll come out. Probably before this episode does. So yeah, yeah. Anyway, kind of, honestly, I am just encouraging you to share your work through because you put all this effort into this 20,000 words, don't you? And, and you need to kind of get it out there. It's important for people getting as you say, you haven't got all the answers, but you've you've got some starting points with some really rich discussions for people to come together and build on and learn from do something next week.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah. I just hate sharing my work as I just don't, I think it's a rubbish to be brutally honest. But hey,

Drew Wicken:

it got Did you did you pass?

Alison Hardy:

Merit? Yes. So Well, there you go in a in a row to the house and they go yes. Okay, hopefully not so. Yes. And I know,

Drew Wicken:

you know, and you said you said it's shaped it shaped the work that you were doing for Oak national. Yeah. And you know, so it's had an influence on practice. It's had an influence on the way you think. So yeah, none of it is none of it is rubbish.

Alison Hardy:

Yeah, that's just me that thinks that. I should probably a few other people as well. But yeah, there we go. But

Drew Wicken:

now because it's a It's as we've said, it's developmentally got all the answers. No, no, no, no. And that anyone else that's doing it will start on MA or are looking to, to go into it. That's the thing. I would say, don't think you're going to go in with all the answers or solve a problem. You're just going to probably create even more questions because I know I did. You do? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's look, it's been great. It's been great talking with you and hearing about it. And, you know, there's so much more we can talk about, and I would be really pleased to have you back on the podcast to talk about all of those things. Thank you. It's great being here and talking about it as well. Thank you for inviting me.