TD&T108 Talking deep dives with Drew Wicken

Drew Wicken is back, this time talking about a deep dive with Ofsted into his team's D&T curriculum.

Episode transcript

Mentioned in this episode

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Curriculum: keep it simple

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Transcript

Alison Hardy: 0:57

So it's a returning guest this week I withdrew Wicken who works in the carp academies in England. He's come on to share his experience of the process of an Ofsted inspection of design and technology. Now we're going to put a couple of caveats in from the start. I know we have some international listeners. So first of all, Ofsted is our Inspectorate in the UK, but in England, they come into schools, and drill give me a lot of information at the moment about how much notice they give, they come and do an inspection, they've got a framework to do that. We'll put some links in the show notes about the framework for that. And so that's the first thing that's a caveat. We know it's very England centric. The second caveat here is if you are a DNC teacher, or somebody involved in design and technology CPD in England, this conversation is not a blueprint for an Ofsted deep dive into design and technology. I just thought it'd be really interesting for Drew to come and talk about the process, kind of what happened over the time, that Ofsted were in his school and the conversations that he had, so that people who may well be fearing the unknown, have a deep dive into the D and T curriculum from from Ofsted, that they are kind of a little bit more comfortable with what the process might be if I just say that the conversation we have before I hit record, Drew did a lot of smiling and was quite positive. Okay. And then the third caveat, I think is really going to come from Drew is that the Ofsted report from the school isn't out yet at the time of our recording. And we're not going to talk about what the inspectors may or may not have said during that time. And even really what what Drew and his head department are going to do beyond beyond that inspection because that's that's what the school to deal with. And we're not here to question the process of a deep dive we're here to kind of just lay out what that process is as such remove some of the fear factor. And then the final says this is the fourth caveat, I've done some of the caveats on an episode before. And the fourth caveat is around the fact that these deep dives that Ofsted are doing in England, are done by Ofsted for Ofsted for reporting as part of their inspection process. And I'll put a link in the show notes to a blog post that's came from to HMI from Heather Fern and Jonathan key is out last year about what their thinking is about a deep dive and how it helps inspectors find out more about the quality of schools curriculum, and then make it quite clear that deep dives are for Ofsted. They're not something really that schools should be doing regularly. And what they're kind of I think showing what these deep dives are doing is actually is talking to teachers about being able to articulate their curriculum, and that's more important for the day to day work in a school and inspection is just a short snapshot. So all the caveats we need do you think Drew?

Unknown: 4:00

I don't think you could put that better myself, to be honest. I think that's that sounds perfectly lays the foundation the rules of our conversation today. as well. Yeah, I think that's fair and honest. Yeah, definitely.

Alison Hardy: 4:13

Okay, Drew. So do you want to just give a couple of moments introduction about you? And then we'll kind of go from there because people have got another podcast they can listen to about you. But just to remind them or if they haven't heard before?

Unknown: 4:26

Yeah. Hello, everybody. Again, my name is Derek and I'm the director for Design Technology at the club academies Trust, which is based sort of in the Midlands and the North of England. And yes, with regards to Ofsted inspections, as and when they come in for certain situations, like for example, dNTP and deep dive, I'm asked to go into support and help out where I can. So I'm glad to be to come and sort of discuss this with you today.

Alison Hardy: 4:56

So, so you've recently been inspected at one of your schools and we're not going I'm not gonna go into all the details. But the people like me, you now live in an ivory tower and don't have well we do we do have inspections at the university around teacher education. But but you're you're the, you know, the chalk face coalface whichever one of those you want to be at. And so when when do you find out that somebody's coming? And how does that happen?

Unknown: 5:23

Yeah, good question. So the head teacher will get a phone call 24 hours in advance. That phone call will be a good sort of hour and a half two hour conversation aspect of it respectively between the head teacher and the lead HMI for the inspector. I'm not revealing anything here. This is all you know, well known online, you can see that you speak to any head teacher and who's been through this recently, they will, you know, quite clearly sort of discussed this point. And that will sort of lay the foundations and the The blueprints as well as to what's going to happen over the day or days, because it can be a one day inspection, depending on your current grading, so that can be just then coming in for the day. And then that's it, or it can be over two days. And again, that is dependent on your inspection status. But also, if you've had any large scale change, so it may, this is why I'm not saying any grading, because actually, you might be at a grade, that could give you a single day. But actually, because you've had large scale changes, for example, you've gone to a new academy trust, or you've had major build work something along those lines, it can then trigger the longer inspection.

Alison Hardy: 6:48

Right. Okay, so that's kind of setting the stall out. So. So your experiences, you've got the phone call, Blueprint was set out. And so they come into the school. And so therefore, kind of just talk us through then what what a deep dive looks like from your perspective for DMT?

Unknown: 7:05

Yes, so the deep dive happens on the first day. And in this situation, they looked at four subjects, and design technology was one of them. What is the the major focus is and just why it's so nice talking to you, and to hopefully quite a few heads of department out there is that anyone who knows the old inspection framework, he was very heavily sort of focused on the SLT of the school going through data and whatnot. Actually, what I found from doing this deep dive, and what are seeing from the future deep dives, is that it's all on the middle leaders. Absolutely. Because the inspectors are in at eight o'clock in the morning, and at 10 past eight, they were then with the heads department for the next hour, and a bit doing the deep dive. And that's where then they go through a series of questions where they get to understand your curriculum design, how you've mapped out the curriculum, where the progression is, and how you evidence that they will talk about learners work. They might then discuss things like special educational needs or Pupil Premium. They could go into assessments, both formative or summative. And then there's other sort of questions that they can sort of ask that might be specific to your subject, as I'll come on to one of those questions in a little while, as well as just general, how you're sort of subject fits within the school and the school ethos. So there's quite a broad range of questions. But actually, most hesitant apartments, I would say, who have got a good grasp on the curriculum design model should be able to go into those meetings and really conquer them and do themselves proud. Absolutely, yeah.

Alison Hardy: 8:54

Yeah. Cuz I'd imagine it's very easy to feel rabbit in the headlights. In these sorts of things, I think that's why it's important to explore the fact that it if you just do the surface learning, thinking about an exam, because it's like an exam, isn't it in a way? Yeah, if you just do the surface learning, when somebody starts to unpick it, it all crumbles. Whereas if you're a school and a teacher in a department who's had some really solid conversations about how do we structure the DNP curriculum, you know, is it cumulative? Is it hierarchical? Can we even use those terms? You know, is it a spiral curriculum? What What's the order? What are the big ideas? What are the concepts? Do we know? How do we know if you've been having those conversations in your department, and then we're able to go into those meetings and have a an adult one to one conversation. And also being at fantasy, we're still exploring this aspect of it puts you in a much better stead, doesn't it? Which is where I suppose again, if a school does mock deep dives, often regular yearly, it kind of actually takes away from the time when you could be having those really rich conversations about your subject, isn't it?

Unknown: 10:13

Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more with that. Yeah. And from my experience, whilst I, you know, with my director sort of hat on, I go around to the different academies in our trust, which I love and enjoy. And I go in and really inspect their curriculum and make sure it's properly you know, robust and delivering what I would expect, at chapelry Point, I'm probably being a bit too harsh on them from from what I've experienced, but actually, I'm quite pleased that I've done that with with the heads of department within my trust, because I know that they are on solid grounds. They have a really good grasp of the curriculum, but also not just the curriculum, but they have a good grasp of educational theory and understanding about how you sequence a curriculum correctly. How do you make things progressively more complex overnight, you know, just three is over five years are actually even longer than that. So going into these discussions with the HMI I was I was really pleased that the head of department that I'd gone in with, because I was in there to sort of support and help and guide the conversation as well with him was was in a position that he could articulate his curriculum model in such a way that the HMI could understand and know where they were heading with their design and plan.

Alison Hardy: 11:28

Right. Okay, so that was the first conversation. So it sounds like there was some general questions that may well have been common across all of the different the four subjects that were looked at.

Unknown: 11:38

Yeah, yeah.

Alison Hardy: 11:41

So that was that was the first conversation was, was there a follow up conversation? Or how did it work?

Unknown: 11:46

So effectively, once they've done the deep dive with the head of department that realistically is it for sort of understanding. So I, I always say, you've got to think of it as like a pyramid. So you have three sort of corner points, which is the deep dive, you then have the lesson observations, and then you have the work scrutiny. And effectively what you say in those in that deep dive about what should be happening in the curriculum. And, and when you go out to lessons today, and maybe tomorrow as well, if they're doing over two days, this is what you should see, then they'll go out, they'll do the lesson observations, hopefully, they will see what you have discussed, and they can see where things aren't, and even maybe, you know, highlight some good practice that's going on from from what you discussed. And then there will take a section of learners work from those lessons they have observed. And they will then look at the work that has been produced by those learners in those observed lessons to see again, that not only from the learning that they've done, has been sort of delivered in a way that is evidence in their exercise, books, sketchbooks, whatever it might be. That is also then linking back to what the bigger sort of picture is, of the curriculum, I always look at that golden thread, we still got golden. So three things. What is that golden? Three? And can they see that in the work going through? You know, that module of work? Is it that academic year, even maybe that it's a bigger piece of work they've been doing over several years, you just don't know if it's let's say you're telling you 11, they may even want to look at, you know, the year 11 coursework is there that, you know, thread going through that they can see that all the different sides of the triangle, marry up and meet nicely.

Alison Hardy: 13:32

Okay, so yeah, that's interesting that they're they're looking kind of then for the evidence of what they've been told, and what this what the school might be saying. So, again, with the caveat that the questions that may well have been asked in your school may not be the same as in another school? What What were the sort of questions that that you and your head of department were asked if you can share any of those?

Unknown: 13:55

Yeah, I don't think I'm, you know, opening any sort of major secret treasure chest here. You know, I won't go and say exactly, exactly word for word, but it was looking into the first sort of big area of questions was about the curriculum design, how have you structured your curriculum? Why do you stretch that way? And where have you? Where have you picked, what knowledge and what learning needs to be taught? And why that was the big thing? Why are you saying that bit of knowledge needs to be taught? And then from that, how do you progressively make that more challenging, more engaging, more complex, effectively, over the academic year, the key stage, you know, the five year whatever it is, so that that kid is not only just recording that learning, they are building on that knowledge, to make them, you know, far more fluent in whatever that area, that topic may be, that you're discussing at that given point. So that was sort of the first area of of questioning. With regards to assessment. They did talk a little bit about assessment, but it was more about the formative style assessment, as opposed to the summative. Now, I think the reason for that, that and again, this may just be me thinking this, we are obviously talking about this before the summer results in 2022. And obviously, we haven't had any sort of formal assessed pieces of work from year elevens, for example, for the last two years. So it's a little bit you know, out of date, things have changed. So it was heavier sort of focus on the form did that may change after the summer as and when we get, you know, post results in August? So we were discussing about how do we demonstrate sort of recall of knowledge, what do we do, you know, to allow that to take place in a lesson? A big focus as well. And again, as you sort of the caveat here, this could be just for this inspection. I'm not saying it's for every inspection was about it. CMD provisions, actually, I was really pleased about that I thoroughly enjoy talking about Sen. D students and how we as a subject really provide for them. It's, it's, it's an easy one with regards to if somebody's got physical impairment, you know, we make sure we've got height adjustable benches. And so that's a that's an easy one, actually, how do we provide somebody who's dyslexic? Or how do we provide support for for weak readers? You know, what do we do in our subject to provide that support, and I know that we've got some, you know, things that we do within our trust in different schools that actually can support that. So it was really nice to be able to sort of discuss those and champions some of these things that have been done within the DND department to help that and I think that's a, you know, a nice sort of conversation to have, you know, when you've got things to sort of demonstrate and to show that. And then, actually, one of the areas that she went into later was talking about the subject as a whole, how do we actually, you know, promote the subject within the school, which I thought was a great line of questioning, and one that I hadn't even expected, you know, to come up. And it was, again, that the head of department who was with me, he was able to sort of talk about some of the incentives that are going on within the school, the stuff that we're doing as a trust for D and T that I'm leading on, that, again, could help demonstrate the support for the subject. The HMI knew that the subject was a popular option choice, because they've got the figures because they can get those. So again, they could see that design technology was a popular subject within the schools, and what are they doing to to keep that level of, you know, engagement? With future years coming through? She then challenged about my support, which is always nice, you know, how do you verify that, you know, your your trust, is giving you the right level of support, and then we had a discussion about that, it's, again, it's nice to validate what's going on there. And then it was just a conversation to sort of conclude about, you know, the subject as a whole and where we think it is, and even discussing primary, which was quite a nice conversation. So it wasn't so much about what the thoughts are just more sort of a subject, sort of holistic conversation, which was quite enjoyable.

Alison Hardy: 18:19

Yeah, it's quite exciting to hear sort of that it's, it's sort of not just about what's happening within the department and the classrooms and search, but also where the does, where does the department see itself within the school, and then beyond in terms of responding to some of the challenges or subjects facing? I just want to go back, because you kind of used an intriguing word. And I thought I would have convinced that you said about the head of department talked about some of the incentives that were offered about design and technology Did you meet because incentives to me sounds like bribery?

Unknown: 18:51

Well, well, I suppose we like I know quite a few people that across the country, we do, we are doing interviews, projects, and actually, the interviews project for us, is the first time Stan has ever done one just within a trust. So we're doing it, I've organised it where it's just within. And obviously, what I mean by that is in respect of these are things to promote, and get the staff to do those extracurricular activities, because there's funding to support that, that comes from STEM learning, which we're hugely appreciative of, and really proud of the work that's going on there. And again, that just helps, you know, allow things to go, you know, they only the department only just recently got a 3d printer for the first time again, through some of the stuff that we're doing across the trust that helping build and promote the subject further, so that they can really increase their numbers and demonstrate that it's not a it's not a subject that is stuck in the past, but it is looking to the technologies of the future. And that for me was was a nice sort of conversation to have, because the action, I could then see that there were developments coming down the pipeline.

Alison Hardy: 20:02

Right? So I suppose I suppose you're talking about and I don't want to use the word enrichment actually, to the curriculum, we were talking about external things that are taking place that can be used to deepen your thinking, support, thinking, CPD that has an impact on people's progress in the subjects. Absolutely. So I want to go off piste here now. So tell us a little bit about the infused project that you're doing. And I'll also give a little bit of context about infuse and where that comes from.

Unknown: 20:30

Yeah, of course. Absolutely. I'll go into more detail about that. So the infusion measure is something that I've seen other colleagues talk about, I know you've spoken about it, obviously on it. And we are I approached STEM learning about a year ago and said I'd like to do it, but actually, I want to do it just within our trust because we're over such a wide area. They said they'd never done that before. So actually it'd be really good sort of test for them. See if they can do it. Our focus is about engagement. With regards to local employers within design technology. Our schools are predominantly in industrial areas. So Leeds, Bradford, Manchester, Liverpool, so called training, which use you've got quite a rich heritage with regards to things that would link nicely to dainty. So the big link there for us is that actually the each school has to find employ links that will come in and support with the delivery of the curriculum, maybe offer some extra curricular activities, trips, whatever it might be. But also on top of that, I want to use the funding to upskill our staff so that they can have a more up to date and current knowledge of certain things through the curriculum, but also so that you can experience industry industrial placements, because that's something that I think can give them a better grasp of, of the industries that may be local to them. Which very often, teachers because they come in from different areas, they don't necessarily have that rich history and understanding of what's happened in the area. And actually, by giving them that industrial placement in mind, you know, widen their horizons as to what it can offer their students. Yeah, so that's

Alison Hardy: 22:28

okay, so how long? How long is this project going on for them? Yeah, so

Unknown: 22:31

we are is a two year project, we officially launched in January of this year, January 2022. So it's going to go through the whole of this academic year, as well as the whole of next, and then into the end of 2023, up to December. And then at the end of that, we'll evaluate it and see how that's gone on. We've already had schools, I mean, every school within our trust has already got links with either businesses or universities. In fact, only this week, I'm going to Staffordshire University to the degree interview degree show, I'm taking my year 10 students to the show, to help them with their MBA. So again, it gives them that sort of context of you know, where things can go academically. And then we've got others that are going to Manchester University, their new graphing departments, which I'm really excited about there, because that's really high level, sort of thinking there, which, yeah, I'm looking forward to how that goes. I want to go on the trip, to be honest, but I can't get there on that day, typically meetings, but I know, they, but this is it, you know, we've got this opportunity to use this and the contacts from STEM learning. And you know, we've got other industries as well. I mean, there's so many I've lost track of them. But both myself and our director of careers within the trust Joe Sykes, we are sort of CO leading it across the trust. She brings in her career side and understanding of the Gatsby and all that kind of stuff. Obviously, I bring in the DND side, and then so on and so forth from there, so yeah, really, really good. So far. Yeah.

Alison Hardy: 24:05

Good. Yeah, good, good. So okay, I'm gonna finish off infused with one final question, because it's great that you've talked about it here. And I could get you on the podcast again to talk about it in the future. And yes, you're reminded me Liz Kay, when this all came and talked about her infused project, quite a while ago. Now, if I need to go back to her, ask her how it's how it's gone on. This is where Liz is I'm changing. I'm changing my email address. I don't want Allison to contact me anyway. shown up. So where do you where do you then share what you've done from the project? How do you how do you share that beyond? Infuse and beyond the stem centre?

Unknown: 24:47

Yeah. So what I and stem have sort of said this, as well. And I've made this a point to all of the schools is obviously yes, we are, you know, the project has been laid within the trust. However, if you organise events or something that goes on within your school, so I know there's one, we're in the process of organising our leads Academy, actually, that can go out to local schools be a primary or secondary, so they can get involved as well, because stem will provide the resources. They wouldn't provide the transportation cost and stuff for those schools, but I'm sure you hopefully they'd be able to. But again, it means that whilst yest is being hosted within one of the schools within the intuitive partnership, actually, it can go out to a wider audience. And then from that, obviously, that could hopefully be a recurring event. So the idea is that once you start these links with the industries and the university, and so actually, it's something that happens year on year, because once you've got those contacts, that's the big thing is once you've got those contacts of people's within the businesses or the universities, you can go back to them year on year and say, Hey, can we do this again? Yeah, great. Let's do do this this time or etc. So it's it's making the what we're doing in bed it for a longer period of time than just the two years that is the big thing. We don't want to just have it for the next two years. And at the end of it Oh, that was nice. Okay, no conversation no these things I want to keep seeing happening year on year on year.

Alison Hardy: 26:16

So how do you share it beyond? Beyond the co op academies? You know, how does? Because it's obviously a lot of learning that's going on that could be useful for other schools? How? How does it get shared beyond? How does it How does your evaluation and your key learning points?

Unknown: 26:33

That's, I mean, I suppose that's really over to stem with regards to what they take from our evaluation of it, you know, anything that we create, or we deliver, obviously, would be with them and us? And actually, if they want to have that resource, or that event or whatever, publicise that again, that would be something that they would probably say, could use this, I don't have any issue with sharing anything. In fact, I've just finished a project with the careers enterprise company, for DHT, which should be coming out hopefully soon to do with the environment and some environmental resources that map directly to the national curriculum, in link in collaboration with Coop Power. So again, I'm always happy to share these resources, as long as it supports the subject again, it's just, it's just over to what STEM allows them what they want.

Alison Hardy: 27:28

Yeah, sure. No, I was just after taking the screenshot, I'll tell you why in a moment, because, and the reason I'm intrigued is because a lot of these things happen, you know, people like yourself practitioners, and and we are completely going off East here about Ofsted. But which is fine. But I am going to come back to because I want to ask you how it kind of rounded off and kind of what's, you know, finish. There's lots of there's lots of D and T teachers and DNC departments and anti leads doing things like this, whether it's funded by unfuse, or not funded, and they're doing what what I would call practitioner research. Yeah, but it doesn't get written about about, because this is this is design, what you're doing is design in your own practice. And we don't I don't think we're great as a community about sharing that process of the design and the evaluation, and is the outcome fit for purpose? That's kind of where my, my my sort of thinking was, you can hear you know, I don't know whether you can see the train coming, but I can see the train coming. I can hear us it's gonna go. So where are you going to write about this

Unknown: 28:46

coming in? Yeah. I think that's it's the nature of the subject would do is, aren't we That's it doesn't matter what the area, you know,

Alison Hardy: 28:56

designers are evaluators.

Unknown: 29:00

And I think that's the thing. That's the thing that we naturally don't necessarily evaluate our work, which we need to get better at. I agree with that. And I absolutely am on board with that. Philosophy. We do need to publicise ourselves, because if you look online, there's loads of other subjects that constantly talk about or something that's been doing being done in detail for years. I mean, Wake up and smell.

Alison Hardy: 29:20

It's yeah, it's the evaluation, isn't it? It's the critique of our own work. That, you know, so what's the criteria for success? You know, we're writing a design specification here, and you must have had to write one for designing the fuse project to get the funding, you know, and so then how do you evaluate it? And yes, you know, stem will have their own evaluation criteria, because they'll have bid from that funding from the government to to do these things. But what's, what's the evaluation criteria from your perspective? So I'm gonna leave that thought with you. I'm going to plant that seed I've written you down in my notebook. Okay. Yeah. No, no, give, give, give on the podcast, about your stuff. I'm always gonna come back and go, but I want more, you know, just to keep these conversations going. Absolutely. Because I think you're right, you're absolutely right. We don't we don't, as a community, share and publish. And I've spoken at length at other places, and other times about why I think that is, right. But I think it is important because then teachers aren't working on their own departments aren't working on there. And then no, there's good practice that they can build on and we build up this stronger community of practice. So, right, I'm gonna leave that one with you. And I'm just gonna say to you, you know, I know you're coming along to our event in June. This podcast is probably going to be published after my event that's happening in June. So people who don't know I've done an event, I'm doing an event in June, where a group of DNC teachers are present Seeing their research at an international conference for not attending it internationally. Unfortunately, we're all together in Nottingham. But we're also talking about what research do we need to be doing in Deonte Andrews coming along, for part of that, and, and one of my ambitions is there is as I've never hidden about is getting more teachers involved in and doing research and writing about their own practice. So this year, it's part 39, which the teachers are presenting next year is Pat 40. And there's a high chance of probability it's happening in the UK in Liverpool. So your Alma, you're on my list Drew?

Unknown: 31:33

The different schools that's fine. Doesn't matter, then we go.

Alison Hardy: 31:39

That's the first outfit. It's not definite yet, but it's, it's looking highly likely that that's going to be happening in 2023. in Liverpool, Matt McLean is leading on that one anyway. So that's great. I kind of feel like I left that conversation round to what I wanted to talk about. It wasn't it's just gonna come on, let's let's let's kind of talk about how we can share these good stories, and honest stories about what's working and what not what's not working. So back back to Ofsted, deep dives, happens. Triangulation with lesson observations, looking at the pupils work from those classes, and so on. So they're in for 24 hours, two days, maybe at most. So how did how did it end? Where is it at the moment.

Unknown: 32:27

So yeah, that effectively, we had the word screws. So the whole day, the first day, was looking at just those in this situation for subjects. So it was purely looking at what's going on in these four subjects that the HMI will go off and do some other bits during the day DSL review, a car review that sort of stuff. Anyway, but the the main focus for that day one is just on those four subjects, then if they go into a second day, depending on what sort of inspection level you're on that second day is to go off into other subject areas that they haven't yet looked at. So that might be a case that they have, you know, another opportunity to go and look at the interior, they may, you know, want to come back and look at some other work depending on what's going on. Maybe if they've done a deep dive, it probably is going to be the likely that they don't come back to you on the second day, they're going to go off to art or music or geography or history, whatever it might be whatever they haven't looked at in day one, in real high level of detail, that they are going to go and have a look and route around. And again, depending on how many inspectors because sometimes what can happen is from day one to day two, the the number of inspectors can decrease. So they might have less inspectors on day two as it did on day one, not always they can stay at the same level. Okay. But effectively, on day two, they will go and do some of the things again, they'll also do maybe some people village voices about other things to do with safeguarding, to do with impressions of the school, they might also then go and look at some data to the school, they'll they'll do all sorts of bits and pieces. But those HMIs will be you know, going for the whole day, they have a really hectic schedule, I don't think I can, you know, put it lightly, they really are fully, you know, from eight o'clock in the morning till about six o'clock at night they are off and going constantly so it is a heavy two days for them. And then obviously at the end of the second day, they obviously collate all of their findings, come up with the final sort of report and then they sit down with the head teacher, maybe see a trust, what whoever and then goes through their findings. Obviously, the report then gets checked it can then be questioned or queried by the school. You know, if things do change, then that can happen. But then obviously, there's a time a period of time before that report is then released to the public and then they're available on Ofsted website and are freely available and easy to download. And they are only a few pages now. They're not masses and masses of report writing, they are quite easy to follow and to understand, which I think is a really good step forward for Ofsted so that they are accessible by parents and children as well, the more the parents so they can read it and really get a grasp of what that school is like. So that in essence is how the sort of day or two depending on what level you're at does run. But I think the big thing for me, you know, having now gone through one with with one of my schools and heads of department is actually don't worry, don't panic. Actually. You've got a good grasp on your curriculum. You can go in there and really do yourself proud, absolutely uncertain of that.

Alison Hardy: 35:57

That's good. That's good. And it's, as you say, you know, part of the reason why we have this one we did this recording today was to sort of take away some of that fear or anticipation factor and, and kind of rumour rumour mill that potentially, we would call it at the University in amongst students academic gossip, you know where to go. This is like this, you know, and, and so no, so that that's good, I think, but it's back to people doing the doing the work beforehand, and not doing the work because of Ofsted. But doing the work. They want to improve the curriculum and the to the expense of the for the for the children that they're teaching. Well, thanks very much about Drew. That's been that's been really interesting, even with the major diversion we took in the middle. That's that's and hopefully people have found that useful and and to remember, all of the caveats at the beginning, you know, this is we're not saying this is a model. This is not say it's how it happens every time. But this is this your experience? And we're talking about the process, not necessarily the outcomes, because you haven't got the report? Yes. Exactly. Yeah. No, but thanks so much, Drew, and I will be seeing you in a couple of weeks in Nottingham. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Looking forward to it. Yeah. Which will be Yeah, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be good. And, and then because you're you're face to face, there'll be some definite arm twisting of you and other people that are there about writing a book about your practice to share with others. I won't abandon you. They don't mean I will be there to help.

Unknown: 37:26

Thank you. Thank you. That's right. Yeah, yeah, that's I look forward to the interest in absolutely, don't worry. It's not as if I've got anything to do over the summer. It's fine.

Alison Hardy: 37:36

And it's, it's metaphorical arm twisting for anybody who's out there thinking, you know, if you do follow me on Instagram, you can see some of the weights that I'm managing to kind of swing around the garden mound with a personal trainer, but you know, it will not it is metaphorical. It's not. It's not actual, of course. Right. And you're lucky it's good to talk to you drew Thanks ever so much. Thank you