The Winding Road

Dayna Del Val: Pivoting Within Constraints / Do You Really Need to be on Social Media

• Travis L. Scott / Dayna Del Val • Episode 42

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I wanted to talk about pivoting within constraints, whether self-imposed or not self-imposed but my guest and I went off on a compelling tangent about whether or not you need to be on social media to survive as a business.

In this week's episode of the Winding Road podcast I speak again with Dayna Del Val a return guest. 

Dayna lives in Fargo North Dakota and is the President & CEO of The Arts Partnership an umbrella arts nonprofit organization dedicated to cultivating community through the arts.

Additionally, she is a professional stage and commercial actor, speaker and writer.


Topics discussed:

  • I felt like I was my truest self when somebody hit the board and said Action!
  • reconcile that stupid fear of missing out or fear of you didn't work hard enough
  • How much do you believe in serendipity versus like feeling like you have to be out there?
  • Where could I put my time and see better returns?
  • How can you remove social as a perceived key marketing channel?
  • Seeking reassurance
  • You always remember the negative comments more than the positive ones.



Connect with Travis L Scott:

Connect with this week’s guest Dayna Del Val

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Ep# 44 - Pivoting within constraints and do you really need to be on Social Media with Dayna Del Val 


[00:00:00] Travis: So I'm here today with Dana Del Val, whom I've known for quite a while now it feels like. And, she was also a guest on this same podcast, The Whining Road, in. we, we talked in December, but I think I got the the episode published in April, so, Okay. So welcome back 

[00:00:19] Dayna: to the show. Thanks, Travis.

I'm glad to be here. It feels like a lot longer ago than that, that we did it, but. I've sort of started saying, I think covid years are like dog years. . Yeah. I just, I think maybe about 14 years have passed in these two years, so, the time has gotten completely irrelevant to me. 

[00:00:36] Travis: Yeah, it's, it's weird, a weird thing now for sure.

Yeah. So, so, so yeah. I think in the last conversation we talked, we ended up talking about communities and the power of communities and, and helping, with your career. In this episode, I want to talk about, pivoting, but I think pivoting within constraints, whether self-imposed or not self-imposed. And this, you know, I, I, you know, I heard, or I, I heard, well, I was reading Dory Clark's book, the Long Game, but I was also listening to it on Audible on runs, so I did hear it.

And you were mentioned in that book mm-hmm. about, a career, pivot that you had had to make early on, and so mm-hmm. thought that would be a great, a great topic to talk about, so, Sure. So, so, Tell us, I mean, you were an aspiring actress. I was moved to Los Angeles, right? Or, or not quite 

[00:01:40] Dayna: moved. No, , I never did.

So I graduated from college with a theatre degree and fully intended to go off to Los Angeles. Los Angeles. That fall I had a summer stock gig. in southern Utah. So I was about two hours from Las Vegas in a little town called Salt Saint George, Utah, right by the Arizona border. And I was doing a big musical there that summer creatively called Utah,

It was a premier musical in a premier facility, so this was unbelievable. Amphitheatre called Tuon, by Santa Clara in the Red Rocks. I mean, absolutely spectacular environment. And, in part, I went because I got cast, but in part, I also went because I knew that we could fly from Las Vegas to Los Angeles for really cheap.

And I thought, well, all right, so while I'm there, I'll go back and forth and I'll you know, find an apartment and get an agent and probably get discovered while I'm there. One weekend, you know, . Cause when you're 22 years old and you think you're going to be a movie star, you don't spend a lot of time imagining.

How it won't work. You only think it will work. Right. so I got there May 20th, graduated May 19th, got there May 20th and May 27th discovered I was pregnant. Mm. So I, spent the summer there, saved up my money, and long, long, not that interesting story. Short ended up back in my hometown in North Dakota, in October of that year.

And then my son was born in January, so I never did. Actually moved to Los Angeles despite going back and forth some over the summer. 

[00:03:17] Travis: Interesting. And, there's also a book that I've, I've started to read recently, by Daniel Pink about No Regrets and. I mean, how do you feel about that looking back and, now I'm sure you've had varying levels, right?

Probably it was different right at, at that moment, and then over time I'm sure it's, it's changed and how, how do you feel? Feel about it, about it now, 

[00:03:41] Dayna: you know? So it was 20, I, I found out I was pregnant 27 years ago. My son is now 26. and I wouldn't trade him for the world he has because of his doors and opportunities opened and doors and opportunities closed.

Mm-hmm. . so I, I would not go back now knowing what I know, but I will say that it. Truly devastating. And, and I always say this because I, I think people don't necessarily doubt this, but I think it's important to say, I don't view an unplanned pregnancy and my child as the same thing. I wasn't rejecting this little microscopic thing that went on to become twin del Val.

I was devastated at the Insurmountable obstacle that was in my path. Mm-hmm. . So it was terrible. It was really, really terrible. And I came home and, did all kinds of things very specifically to keep my path as flexible and open as possible so that I could get to Los Angeles when the time was Ray.

And it probably wasn't until I. 38, 39 years old that I thought, I don't think I'm going to Los Angeles . So for 15 or 16 years I really hung onto that. Wow. Yeah. 

[00:05:08] Travis: Wow. And, and what, was there a certain event that that happened that, that kind of just changed it for you? Or was it just kind of a, a gradual realization?

[00:05:22] Dayna: I think it was, first of all, Hollywood is not the place where, what they're crying for is middle aged women. You know, that's why I sort of aged out of, aged out of the typical Hollywood actress. I think my life started to take on meaning and purpose in very different ways, but in ways that still utilized all of the same.

Qualities and assets and skills that made me a good actor in the first place, and it's important to note, I've done an incredible amount of acting from here. I mean, I'm a SAG after a union actor. I've done tons of commercials, tons of voiceovers. I've done some small films. I've done a lot of acting. In some ways I've had a better career than friends who lived on either of the coasts because the competition in North Dakota is much, much smaller.

You can imagine. Yeah. but I think it really was for me that I started to, expand. How I thought about what it meant to be an actor. And what I say now is that I am absolutely still a performer, except now I'm telling my stories. I'm not interpreting somebody else's. And that was a really powerful shift that actually, I would say, has only been in my life for the last three years.

So it's been, it, it was a long, long time coming. I really held onto that dream. Mm-hmm. . and did other things that were interesting along the way, but always with that very clear and present in the background of this is all fine, but it's not what I'm supposed to be doing. What I'm supposed to be doing is making films in Hollywood.

Mm-hmm. . 

[00:07:07] Travis: Yeah. And, and that, that purpose, that you, that you mentioned, This is one of those brain fog moments where I had it and got it up to the point of I'm, I'm with you delivery. And it was gone. So the purpose that you mentioned when you were wanting to be an actress, an actor in Los Angeles, Hollywood, to then pivot that to, to where you're at now, was, was was the original purpose, was it what you wanted? Was it internal or were there some external factors that you thought that, I don't know how to say this, like, , you thought you would impress other people if you were doing that?

Mm-hmm. . So really you were doing it for other people and not for you. And, and how much of that was there? Like, like little bit of both, or mostly one or the other? It's an 

[00:08:07] Dayna: interesting question. I, I would say it was 90% for me. I think I always, always, always, my whole life knew that I was. an ascending star, for lack of a better phrase.

And, it was always just a matter of time for me, and that continues to be true, which makes many people look at me like I've got, you know, a fourth hole in my head because, I live in Fargo, North Dakota. I am decidedly middle aged. I've had a perfectly fine career. Nothing extraordinary. I'm nobody's household name, those kinds of things.

but what I say to that is yet mm-hmm , I, it is coming, it's coming in a different way than I imagined that it would. but it's always been an internal drive of mine. and it's, it's funny because when I first started articulating it, you know, in my early to middle teenage years, of course there was no social media.

[00:09:08] Dayna: There was no, no way to access any of the celebrity that we understand today. So I always say to people, I didn't wanna be a movie star in. Well, I have a million plus followers on Instagram, and I'm an influencer and people pay me to show up at parties. I wanted to be an actor who made films. Mm. so for me that was, was how I expressed my creativity.

It was how I felt most, alive and powerful, how I, I felt like I was my truest self when somebody. hit the board and said, Action. Mm-hmm. . so I still feel that way except I've, I've adapted it, and I'm, I'm directing it now, which is something I never thought I would wanna do. So I have to some live streams and I do all this writing and.

have created this a a course and I'm a professional speaker, and so all of the skills, like I said, all the skills that made me a good actor have seamlessly transitioned over to this other thing. And you could ask the same question, Well, how much of it is driven by an internal desire and how much of it is an external desire to be known?

and I would say that percentage is about the same. I am a performer. I am a, in front of people, personality. 

[00:10:38] Dayna: I just am. And that doesn't mean that I don't love to be by myself or that I'm not comfortable one on one. But I am at my absolute most favorite place standing under spotlights. 

[00:10:52] Travis: And it sounds like.

 You embrace being an artist, not a brand. And some people Yes. Want to be the brand and the artist piece is how they get there, it seems like. Right? Sure, 

[00:11:04] Dayna: sure. Yeah. That's an interesting way to think of it because of course. , I, I am developing a brand because you can't be a professional speaker who doesn't have a brand.

Yeah. and my brand is myself. So I, it's a, I think it's a little bit, tricky because it sounds kind of disingenuous to say, Well, I just, you know, I, it's not about, it's not about being a, an influencer of some sort. Well, of course it is, because I want people to want to, hear my content and engage with my writing and, hire me to be with employees and audiences and all those kinds of things.

but again, it's coming from a place of hard earned lessons. Mm-hmm. one as opposed to just, you know, I happen to look a certain way or I happen to have been in the right place at the right time. And so now all of a sudden I. Line of perfume and clothing behind me or you know, whatever,

[00:12:03] Travis: how much, you know, you mentioned being in the right place at the right time. And I, I think about that a lot. And sometimes, especially weeks like this, when I have covid and I'm exhausted and. Just doing anything seems like Herculean effort and I just wonder, man, why, Why do I want to post anything on LinkedIn?

Why do I want people to notice? Why can't I just do what I do and let serendipity take effect? How much do you believe in, in serendipity versus like feeling like you have to be out there? In front of people 

[00:12:44] Dayna: constantly. That is such a great question. I wish I could give you a definitive answer. I mean, I think, let's use reels as an example.

So, I mean, I don't think reels are impossible on Instagram, but I'm not really in that realm. And the other day I thought, all right. I'll just go make some reels. How hard could it be? I mean, four year olds are making reels on Instagram. Well, it turns out it wasn't quite as simple as I wanted it to be, and then I started to feel like, why in the world am I giving time to this thing in the hope of getting more likes?

I mean, unfortunately, what social media has done, and I'll just say for myself, but I don't think I'm unique to this, what social media has done is it's sort. Shut us all back to about sixth grade , where we really hope that the cool kid notices us mm-hmm. , and that the dorky ones don't. Mm-hmm. . And that's exhausting.

Yeah, it is. I mean, who wants to go back to junior high for any reason at all? Exactly. And yet I feel like I'm sort of trapped in that loop of. You gotta do the work, you gotta show up, you gotta be seen, you gotta look consistent. You gotta be there all the time, all the places doing all the things. Well do you?

Mm-hmm. ? I, I don't know. I don't know. 

I'm really trying to reconcile that stupid fear of missing out or fear of you didn't work hard enough. Mm-hmm. with, do your work. Do the work that matters to you that. Has some, um, consistency and some, what's the word I'm looking for? Like some structure and some meat will go with meat behind it.

Mm-hmm. . And eventually it'll, it'll land where it needs to land. But, you know, I've been waiting a long, long time for that and, I do think you can't just sort of say, Well universe, I'm here and I want it. I think you have to work at it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's a hard question. That was a long answer to a short question.

[00:14:57] Travis: No, no, that was a great, a great answer and it, it sparked some other thoughts for me as well and cause I mean, this is something that I've thought about a lot because it is exhausting. And, and I almost think that sometimes it pulls you away from doing like your core thing, right? Yes. I mean, I'm a marketer that's part of marketing, but I don't like social media marketing and I don't like writing copy, and I feel like that's what I have to do.

Right? And yeah. and, and. And I've been working with Ginny Blake a lot lately. And I've also been listening to her, her podcasts a lot lately. free time and, and pivot. And one of the things that I've noticed, about her and, and some of the guests she's had on her podcast is she stopped posting on social media.

I can't remember how long it's been. Wow. She stopped. and then some of the guests she's had on have said that they have stopped posting. and, and then I was actually listening to another podcast and this person who, I think he's an author, he also has started several. Companies that are well known.

he said he used to be super active on social, went down a rabbit hole, got to a point where he was just like all he was doing. So he pulled back and I had mentioned him on LinkedIn and when I saw his profile, he had something on there that says, I don't check LinkedIn, email me . And so, wow. It's just made me start to think how important is it?

[00:16:28] Travis: And to, you know, you were,and a kimbo, um mm-hmm. Alum as well. So you've gone through Seth's things, which is why you, I I do wanna get back to talking about constraints because, you know, he taught us a lot about constraints, especially in the old nba. and I think they're a good thing. But, he also wrote the book Idea Virus, and he also kind of not pounded it in.

He's made a point of, you know, talking about you, you, you're not for everyone. You, you don't have to broadcast to everyone. Need to be. Yeah. Yep. And so with those things in mind, that's what I've been thinking about a lot is, is it possible to just kind of go back to the old school word of mouth and maybe let everybody else on social do the work for you to where you.

Do such a great job at what you do at your core proficiency, that others talk about you and they spread the word and they do that. That social talking for you frees you up to just focus on. Who you're for and doing what you do really, really well for who you're for. And so I've thought about that a lot.

cuz I am getting kind of exhausted from, and I only focus on LinkedIn and I'm exhausted by LinkedIn. So what are your thoughts on, 

[00:17:56] Dayna: on that? Uh,I love it. I love it so much. And I'm sitting here thinking, Yeah, but can you do it? Mm-hmm. , and I'm here to tell you, I don't know if I can. So, a year and a little bit ago, I made a decision that I was gonna cut my Facebook friends list way down.

I had 1800 people and I felt like, . I no longer had any control of the time I spent on Facebook. Mm. I was just out of control with it. So I thought, well, you have to figure something out here. and I decided I would cut it down to 200 people, which was an extraordinary task because you have to delete people one by one , And it's a two, it's a two click deletion process.

Oh, wow. and I can say that it. it freed up a lot of time. I mean, just if you make a commitment that you're gonna say Happy Birthday to everybody you're friends with on Facebook, then it's just necessarily stands to reason that if you have 1800 people, that's a lot more people to type happy birthdays too.

And if you have 200, I, I did only get down to 400, but that was a good cut. Yeah. So even just something as silly as that freed up a lot of time. Mm-hmm. . but of course now as I'm really trying to, launch this Dana del Val network I have in the back of my mind. This notion that, well, why would you have cut people out right before you kind of need them most to potentially be paying attention to you?

Yeah. So in some ways, I sort of did what you're talking about without having that clear, an agenda around it. And I can tell you, I don't think I would be a lot further along the path if I still had 1800 friends who were being inundated with my content. Mm-hmm. , you know, because we all know how little time anybody including ourselves, pays to anybody else on social media.

Cause we're also busy paying attention to ourselves. Yeah. so I, I think it's, I think it's a, a really beautiful test to say. I will stand on my word and on my work and it will rise or fall with the integrity of the content. Mm-hmm. , I also think that is a scary as hell place to be . Yeah. Because we have conditioned ourselves that we have to be all the places doing all the things, or people won't ever find us.

Mm-hmm. . So I don't know, I something about, it's very resonant with me though, and it. , as you were talking, I felt like I was moving from an out of control hamster wheel, which is often how I imagine myself to maybe sitting on my swing in the backyard just reading mm-hmm. , and that feels much, much. Kinder, calmer, gentler, and better than being out of control on the hamster wheel.

[00:20:56] Travis: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's just, I, I can't stop thinking about what if all I had to focus on was doing my best work and not talking about it. 

[00:21:06] Dayna: how, Okay, so let me, let's follow this thread a little bit, Travis. Let's say, let's say you do this, How do people find you then in, in a world where you are not saying, Look at me.

Look at me. Look at me. 

[00:21:20] Travis: Yeah. Yeah. Especially in a world of zero click, right? Like, yeah, you share a link on LinkedIn, they're not gonna show it. Right. You, optimize your website for seo and Google might show a clip. But they're not trying to get people to click on your site anymore like they used to.

No. So, so it's almost like the world is being engineered against people who just want to focus on what they do and not talk about it against thoughtfulness, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, I don't know. it's a, it's, it's, it's a what if I'm gonna continue to think about and,I'm, I'm gonna invite Jenny on the podcast and I, I'm gonna ask her about that.

Like, what, what's happened since you've done that? how have things changed? Oh, how do you get the word out still? Right? Like, how do people find you? and she's got a new book, that came out thinking March this year. Okay. And so I, I'll be curious to know, like, how did you do that without social.

You know, so maybe, 

[00:22:17] Dayna: maybe we've all just been fed a big lie and adopted it lock, stock and barrel . Yeah. You know, I mean, I, I can't honestly tell you that all of the work I'm doing, I can't point to anything where I can say, Oh, that post led to this tremendous growth. I, I can't tell you any of that. So maybe we just sort.

Blindly walked into something and then it caught us really quickly and has us held 

[00:22:43] Travis: tight. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm starting to think that, and when I think about the relationships I've built over the years, it's, it's rare that I've built any through social. more so I mean a little bit, but usually from a community that's bled into.

Um, Right. So, and like I think about when I was doing my own business, how I got my clients, one came from social, but that was an existing contact who I met through a community. So yeah, I, I don't know. but again, I think that's kinda back to constraints maybe. You know, that's a constraint that you impose on yourself just to say, what if, Like what, what if I couldn't post on LinkedIn for two months?

[00:23:32] Travis: How would I get people to talk about me? What would that have to look like? It's almost like the 10, I think it was the Alt MBA where, we had to think about. What maybe, I think it was maybe the marketing seminar. Okay, what if, what if we. Had to price our product or service 10 times the price we're charging.

Now, how would that product or service, how would we change that product or service? and I think it's kind of in those lines of if we couldn't post anything on social for two months, what would we have to change to not lose any ground, not lose any momentum? So, 

[00:24:14] Dayna: Wow. You're kind of blowing my mind a little bit.

Travis 

[00:24:17] Travis: Covid did something for 

[00:24:18] Dayna: me, right? I guess it, Yes, it's true. There it is. You, you've got a weird clarity . but I mean, so, so if I, I don't know when this will air, but this is the middle of August and in the middle of September. Mm-hmm. , I'm gonna do this big five day retreat challenge in an effort to.

Draw and a large and new to me audience to take a six week course, which will start virtually in October. So like if I were to go back to the two marketing women who I work with and love and say to them, I'm gonna take a two month break starting now. Well, how in the world could I possibly think I'm gonna sell that course?

But how in the world am I gonna sell that course in the midst of all the noise of social media anyway? Yeah. It's sort of damned if you do, Damned if you don't. Yeah, a little bit. Oh, this is so fascinating to think 

[00:25:21] Travis: about. How can we design word of mouth as our primary vehicle, 

[00:25:27] Dayna: or how can we just commit to it?

Mm-hmm. But here's, I think, here's the other thing, like I was gonna say, well, let's you and I commit to that. I okay, but if we're not on social media, we can't lift each other up . So, yeah. You know, then, then it's a little bit like, well, I won't eat generic cold cereal, but that's all I'll buy for my children.

They don't deserve good cereal, but I do. Yeah. I mean, like at some point you have. Somebody's gotta be the sacrificial lamb, spreading the word of mouth unless we completely disrupt the system and something else steps in. And I, I don't know that I'm that. visionary disruptor, at least not in these first four minutes of thinking about it.

[00:26:12] Travis: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and I think it almost needs training wheels, right? Yeah. Like you almost need like an easier ramp off, Yep. To, to being able to ride on your own. because it will, I think it's, it's possible and I think it's part of the long. The Dory talks about, and I think it's, it's part of the long game of marketing, which fortunately a lot of people in marketing are starting to talk about and, and embrace.

Finally, that marketing's a long term thing. It doesn't happen overnight. You don't flip a switch in and suddenly, you know, drive leads and drive business and make your sales team happy. Right. It doesn't work like that. Mm-hmm. . but it's been, you know, the expectations have been that, and so, You know, I think it's, it's a wheel that you gotta get turning.

Yeah. And remove friction and just get it going. Right. And, but, but because it takes time, you can't just shut everything else off. Right. And so, and, and so now was thinking just now, like as you had mentioned, that how do you do, how do you do that? And I think it's, it's through communities. How can you, It's just getting people to talk about you.

And so it's what Chris Walker at Refine Labs refers to as, as dark social. you can't tie any direct digital attribution to it. Because people are actually talking about you in a closed community on Slack or something like that. Or they're in a Zoom call in a, in like a, you know, some of the calls that Dory has sometimes where we all get together.

Yeah. And, and you say, Hey, did you hear about this person? Or did you read that book? Or, Try this app. And then you're saying that to, in a community of, you know, maybe 30 people on a call or a thousand people in Slack, Right? And so now you've got that, but people start hitting your website, hitting different things.

But from a, from a marketing perspective, if you were looking at your analytics, It wouldn't say, Hey, they, they came to you from conversation in Slack. Right? Right. They'll come directly to your website, so you have no idea that that just happened. And so, mm-hmm. , how do you. Design more of that, to get, And, and if you think about it, like with our efforts on social, we're shotgunning really.

We try to get following that is our people, but it's not, it's never 100%. And so you're shoting and hoping that the small percentage. Of your followers who are interested in what you have to say, that small percentage that the, the platform says you're, you're only gonna get this. Not 

[00:29:02] Dayna: everybody's of Yeah.

Yep. 

[00:29:04] Travis: Is the right ones. So how many of the right people are you actually hitting? Whereas if word of mouth might be slower, it might be fewer people. But the people who are telling the other people are telling the right people. Right. Right. Because in that conversation, something happened, something was brought up where you were sparked and said, Oh, mm-hmm.

you were the connection. Oh, mm-hmm. , here's the answer to your problem. This book or this person, you should check them out. Um mm-hmm. , how can you be that connection in that conversation? 

[00:29:46] Dayna: You know, it's funny because I'm thinking back to junior high again, but I'm thinking about, I, I was and continue to be a voracious reader.

Well, how did I find books in junior high? My friend would be reading a book in, in homeroom. And I would say to her, I wanna read that next . And, and it was all about the relational connection. If, because I knew if she liked it, I would like it. Mm-hmm. . Cause we had a lot of commonalities. and I'm, then, I'm thinking about my day job.

So I'm the CEO of a arts umbrella nonprofit organization, and. I do next to no marketing and no marketing of myself. I mean, we certainly market the organization and those kinds of things and we're on social media, but not like I was when I first started, and 95% of every new conversation I have starts with.

Boy, thanks for taking my call. I talked to 10 people and they all said, You have to talk to Dana Del. It's as old school and traditional as it gets, because my social proof in this small bubble of people who care about the arts in this small Midwestern community mm-hmm. is high. So I, I guess what I'm thinking is, I'm listening to talk is those of us who had a very clear pre-internet, pre-social media world, do know what, what it looks like to be the person that other people recommend based on personal interaction.

Mm-hmm. , community observation, all those kinds of things. Because that was how it happened then. Mm-hmm. . And isn't it funny how quickly we threw out systems that worked? Yeah. And adopted this new thing, which we actually don't have a tremendous. Evidence to say does 

[00:31:47] Travis: work. Yeah. Or even influence over direct influence.

Right. This is 

[00:31:52] Dayna: an algorithm, right? Yeah. Yes. And it's an algorithm decidedly disposed against small town, middle-aged, you know, un influential people, certainly. Mm-hmm. from the middle of the country. Yeah. Wow. 

[00:32:09] Travis: Hmm. Yeah. Who they reward for time 

[00:32:12] Dayna: on site. Right. I'm. Right. I'm sort of tempted to say to you, Let's make an X number of time commitment and then let's get back and see how it went.

I don't think I could do it in these two months. Yeah. But, but I do think, I mean, I, there is something here that I think we can't ignore. I, there is truth to this query. And we could, we could decide to adopt it. Mm-hmm. and try it. I mean, I'll just speak again for myself. It's not like I've got 12 million followers who will fall apart.

If I just step away from social media for a while. No one will know or care, you know, that that would be okay for the community and the world at large. . So then it's about, can I take the. lack of whatever little dopamine hits social media is giving me, can I take the lack of that and can I just trust that I have other things to do to fill that time and that I can be of more service and, and do the work I actually wanna do in a better way away from the distraction of social media?

[00:33:29] Travis: Yeah. and I think from a career perspective, I mean, I think there's a lot of pressure on Link, like to feel like you have to be on LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. telling people what you know. Right. Or engaging with the right people and showing up in their feed by just saying, Oh great. Great idea. Thanks for sharing.

Like , I mean just, and I think it's just undue pressure and, and especially for someone looking to pivot into something new, you kind of need to find. You're new people. Mm-hmm. . But is social the way to do that? and I could tell you that in this recent pivot that I did a year ago Yep. I don't think I found anybody on social.

 again. It was communities. I found communities. I heard of communities, I got invited to communities. and that's how it happened. And how I was able to, And then I follow them on LinkedIn, but most of the stuff happens on Slack. It happens in weekly calls. I just got off of a, a monthly rev op mastermind that I was invited to.

[00:34:35] Travis: Okay. Through pavilion. Another community. Yeah. so I was invited to one community from another. And so like that's kind of where the, the connections happen cuz I'm in with rev op people. Right. Like LinkedIn's full. , all kinds of people, right? Some rev ops, but not a lot, so, mm-hmm. . so I, I think, I think having those constraints of how can I make this pivot without having to be out there and spend so much time just, just going through social, right.

Where could I put my time? and see better returns, in making this pivot. Where could I learn more? 

[00:35:19] Dayna: and then, well, and for me it's just where could I get quiet, right? Yeah. Social media is so loud. Yeah. Where could I just take some time and get quiet? That would be, that would be lovely. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:35:35] Travis: Yeah. 

[00:35:36] Dayna: Hmm.

Wow. Well, I'm gonna be thinking about this conversation for a very long time, Travis, and something will come out of it. I know it will. It's, it's too resonant to sort of hop off this call and think, Wow, enough of that conversation and drop it. There's something, there's something, too important about it, which isn't to vilify all of social media.

There's incredible things about the ability to connect and network and instantly. In some kind of community, and sometimes it's ex incredible mm-hmm. , but most often it's the difference between, you know, a bag of Cheetos and a really beautiful cheese from France, . I don't wanna eat Cheetos when I could be eating a really beautiful cheese from France.

Exactly. 

[00:36:27] Travis: Exactly. Yeah. So I mean, so I guess the, the goal would be how can you. Not really minimize your, depend, well, I guess minimize your dependence on social, but remove social as a perceived key, marketing, channel to what you're doing. Yeah. Whether it's marketing your business, marketing yourself as a employable person.

Yeah. Who recently pivoted. How can you take that pressure off, of, of feeling? You have to be there every day in some capacity. Mm-hmm. , Right? Cause I don't think you do, need to be there every day. 

[00:37:11] Dayna: I, I'm sure you don't. I mean, I am 90 per 5% certain You don't, because there's billions of people. So one missing person is not going to collapse the ship.

[00:37:26] Travis: Yeah. And, and I think when you think of alternatives, like what about a newsletter? What about inviting them to come to you and subscribe and then, you know, every time you hit send you're sending it to the right people. Yeah, 

[00:37:43] Dayna: it's true. It's true. And I mean, so I send out a weekly newsletter and that is absolutely where.

Bulk of the feedback comes to me. Mm-hmm. , because those people really are in some kind of relationship with me. Even if it's somewhat peripheral, it's a deeper relationship than the transactional one of social media. 

[00:38:07] Travis: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And if you stopped, if that's weekly and you stopped for a month and didn't tell anybody, Right.

They would miss you. They would 

[00:38:14] Dayna: wonder. People might notice that. Yes. 

[00:38:17] Travis: Yes. People would notice, but if you stop Yep. Social for a month, they, they probably would notice when you posted again a month later, like, Oh, 

[00:38:26] Dayna: I didn't even know she was gone. Yeah. . I haven't seen her stuff 

[00:38:29] Travis: in a while. Yeah. I wonder what she's been up to.

[00:38:32] Dayna: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Really, really interesting conversation and just incredibly Provo. because it is truly amazing how quickly we fell into the, rhythm and routine that somebody else set for us. Mm-hmm. of social media. 

[00:38:57] Travis: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think this happens every time we talk, like wasn't the intended course, that we planned to take, but somehow our conversations morph into something.

Really, really 

[00:39:13] Dayna: good. So, Well, you feel like a very, deep thinker to me in the, in the sense of, I think you ask questions that somebody could say, Oh, I absolutely, I couldn't give up social media because it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then we would just move on. But it's provocative enough that if you're listening to the question, You do have to sort of stop and say, Huh, why am I a slave to a system created by a punk kid in college?

You know, I mean, good for Mark Zuckerberg, but what does Mark Zuckerberg care about me? Right. And why should he? He shouldn't. Yeah. why do, why have I so easily relinquished my self, worth my, my amount of time my. Goals and aspirations to someone presumably who I will never, ever meet. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So you can't ignore that question.

Yeah. 

[00:40:17] Travis: Yeah. Hmm. And, and as you were mentioned, that you, you know, the self worth that, that sparked another question for me of Okay. Of, Seeking reassurance, right? Like a lot of it is we're seeking reassurance how we, we post something and we check back, not to look at the feed and look at other people stuff, to see who's commented on our stuff, who's like, who like us, right?

Yeah. And. I wonder if you felt the same way that the highs you get from a post that seems to take off. And what I've noticed is those are always the dumbest things I post. Not the most insightful. 

[00:40:57] Dayna: Yes. So disappointing. Like that was like 

[00:40:59] Travis: the dumbest thing. I just randomly thought I wasn't even gonna post that.

And I did. I thought it was stupid, but I did it anyway and it blew up. But this one I really thought about for a long time. Wrote it, rewrote it, posted it, and got like 20 views and two likes. Yep. Like how? How much has that 20 view two, like one tended to natively impact your day or the next few hours compared to the, the high of the one that seemingly did great.

Like, I mean, it seems like the lows and the highs are not equal. And 

[00:41:41] Dayna: I, I think about, so I taught college freshman English mostly to international students for 10 years. So two sections a semester, 44 kids, 88 a year, so about 900 students. Wow. I can tell you in 900 students, there are three really negative ones.

I'm not saying I never had any other negative, teacher evaluations, but three that really sort of took my breath away. Those three. Come instantly to mind. I haven't taught in 12 years. They come instantly to mind. I believe I've identified who those three students were, , and they carry 95% of the weight, of 10 years of teaching of approximately 897.

Wow. Good. Or amazing evaluations. Yeah. So I think your question is, is spot on. The one that matters that nobody pays attention to, feels. Like it is such a confirmation of your lack of worth. Mm-hmm. and the, the one that either meant something to you and does well or meant nothing to you and does well, that does well.

You go, Oh, that's fine. And you move on because you're like, presumably now that's your new bottom. Right? Yep. Well, that's not, that's not how it seems to work. At least it doesn't work that way in my world. 

[00:43:05] Travis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The new bottom you've seen. Okay. You saw what could happen and mm-hmm. . Now you just are chasing that, right?

Yes. And you don't get it, and you don't know when you're gonna get it because it's an algorithm. It has really not a whole lot to do with what you've posted. It's who happened to see it, when did they engage, and who were their followers and who saw it of their followers and. You have no control, but yet the, the, it just, it can have such an impact on your emotions, which then has an impact on your work, right?

And your day and your family and your life. And so, so is that, you know, that's another part of, Is that worth it? 

[00:43:49] Dayna: Yeah. I mean, I think we know it's not . Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, it's sort of like, you know, you, you'll hear someone say, Oh, I drank too much last night. I woke up totally hung over.

I'm never drinking again. We know that we aren't gonna, we, we, we believe we aren't gonna do that. And then you. , I'm never going to eat so much again. Whatever. We, we make these grand proclamations and then we fall right back into it. We know it's not worth it. Mm-hmm. , I, I, I love to meet the person who says, no.

My life is infinitely better because of social media. Yeah. My, my sense of self has gone through the roof , and I love everything about myself because of social media. , I don't think that person 

[00:44:32] Travis: exists. No, I don't either. I don't either. 

[00:44:37] Dayna: Shouldn't, and I, I mean ultimately this is sort of an embarrassing conversation because it's sort of like, I don't, I mean, I'm, I don't view myself as a Einstein, but I view myself as at least quasi savvy.

Mm-hmm. , and I've just bought into this thing hook, line, and sinker. Yeah. And bought then to all of. SEO and search engines and blah. I've bought into all of 

[00:45:00] Travis: it. Yeah, because it's, it's mean, it's, it's designed on psychology, so Yeah, that's true. And it's hard to fight something that's hardwired. It's being triggered.

Yeah. That's hardwired, right? Like so 

[00:45:17] Dayna: Yeah. It's astonishing. 

[00:45:19] Travis: Yeah. it is. So, so I think at the end of the day, If you're making a pick career pivot, you don't need social media as much as you think you do. I think. Don't think you, I don't think you do. 

[00:45:33] Dayna: I think that's absolutely true. So, so I guess we have to decide when we're gonna try it, Travis.

I know. See if our lives tank or if we just have like two most productive months of our lives. Yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting constraint and Ima just. Try it for one second. Stay on your original intended topic. I am an enormous believer in constraints. Mm-hmm. , I say all the time in my day job artists produce their best work.

When someone says to them, Here's, here's how you must, or here's what you must create inside of mm-hmm. . Because if you say to someone, the sky is the limit, that's overwhelming. We all do better with some boundaries. Oh yeah. That's why children need good parenting . and I, I think that that quality stays true for us.

If someone says, you can have anything you want, how can you even comprehend that? It's better to know you're inside this realm, this world, this box, this, however you wanna think of it. Mm-hmm. make the best of that. Yeah. I, I think there's something really valuable to that. 

[00:46:41] Travis: Yeah, I think so too. And, and, and maybe it comes to like setting our own constraints, but doing it in a way that is also helping, helping us work.

Like Dory mentions in her book, the long game about working in waves, right? Like uhhuh so what, for a few months. It's not like you're quitting, you're shifting focus, right? Right. You're focusing your energy here and then maybe you'll pivot back and pick that up. When you've completed this big, big thing, you know mm-hmm.

and then maybe you'd switch again and you have another big thing that all of your energy's focused on that not social, not anything else, and you just kind of work it in waves, as just part of your annual process, right? Of, of how you, how you work 

[00:47:31] Dayna: that feels very compelling to me, because again, it's not all or nothing.

Mm-hmm. , you know, I, I'm not prepared to say I'm deleting all my social media accounts. I will never get on the internet again. I'm not prepared to say that. but I am prepared to think about, All right, what, what does a one week sabbatical, just as a, you know, get your toes wet. What does a one week sabbatical look like?

Mm-hmm. . It looks like nothing to everybody else, and to me it could be incredibly seismic. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. yeah, the, the notion of waves. I, I had kind of forgotten that that's how she talks about that work cycle. But you're right. Just all in, remove the distraction, , and then when you, when the all in is done, then you can look to see what's the next.

Next way you wanna give your focus mm-hmm. . 

[00:48:23] Travis: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. And that's kind of what I'm doing with these podcasts. and it's based on some of the stuff that I've talked about with, with Jenny, in our coaching sessions. And, you know, I was trying to maintain a podcast by trying to record an episode every week or every couple weeks and be on this cadence and.

It was just tough cuz things would come up. Yeah. And it was just kind of hard. And so she had mentioned, well what if you just did it all at once? cuz I guess,John Lee Dumas, is that his name? I guess he'll do like a, a big chunk of his podcasts, like all in one day. Oh, okay. And just knock 'em out.

Like just block off that day and say, This is when these podcasts are gonna happen. Record 'em all and then start to release 'em. And so I'm doing that. I've got a constraint of a baby coming in September. You have another baby coming? 

[00:49:14] Dayna: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Congratulations. 

[00:49:17] Travis: Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. September 20th.

So, Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. Overwhelm has, has begun. 

[00:49:26] Dayna: would say think so. Cause do you already have three? Two. Two. Okay. 

[00:49:30] Travis: Yeah. So this gonna be the third, so this is gonna be the outnumbered one. So, All right. So, so that's my constraint is a baby, and I wanna get this whole next season, eight to 10, eight to 12, but it's gonna be more like eight to 10 episodes record.

between now and September, really almost like September 2nd, because I've got a marketing conference the week of the fifth, and so I want to get 'em all in and done now, and then I'll be done like for the rest of the year and recording, right? So they'll just go out, and I'll start thinking about the next season.

[00:50:06] Travis: And so if I can do that right, I'm working in waves of chunks of like a month. Get 'em all done in one month. And, but the appearance looks like they're coming out every other week for a year, right? Yes. Yep. So, so I'm trying that with this to see, Can I just load 'em all up, get 'em all, get 'em all in, before the baby comes and, and hand 'em off to my editor.

so then she can work on 'em. Yep. And get 'em, get 'em released. So, Wow. We'll 

[00:50:38] Dayna: see if that, Well you have a lot of, You got a lot on your plate, Travis? Yeah, 

[00:50:43] Travis: I do. Yeah, I do. Yeah, and I think, well, I Wow too, too much, but, 

[00:50:50] Dayna: but, well, you know. , it's always too much until it happens and then it's, and then it's is what it is.

And a new little person is never too much. Right. Too much to think about probably. Yeah. But exactly. That's really exciting. 

[00:51:04] Travis: Yeah. So, so yeah. So this, this episode will probably come out in probably mid October, so, Okay. 

[00:51:14] Dayna: Great. So, well, who knows where we'll be by then. We might have had a complete upheaval of our own sense of selves again by 

[00:51:21] Travis: then.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, and yeah, if we, if we both, experiment with it, we'll have to sync back up and do another episode and. And, and you were saying you're, you're not a household name. You will be on the the Winding Road Podcast when it's all 

[00:51:36] Dayna: said and done. That's fantastic. I love it. I love it. I love this podcast,

No, really and truly there is, there is something I need to really spend some time on with this conversation because it, you know how sometimes someone will say something, and it sort of just like hits you square between the eyes and you think, All right, that was a bigger thing than just a casual sentence said in passing.

There was something, something sort of universal for you to hold onto here. I, that feels like, like this. Mm-hmm. . And so I, I actually look forward to digging into it a little bit. Pretty certain I'm gonna discover some stuff I would never, ever, ever have come to without this prompt from you. So I really appreciate that.

[00:52:29] Travis: Yeah, no, I, I appreciate you coming on and riffing with me on it, and I, I, I think it all comes back to, becoming a recognized expert too, right? Like yeah, that's why it's recognized. So, yeah, which is the, the workshop that, that Dana and I, have both done through Dory Clark. Yeah. and I think that's, that's a key aspect of it is social media expects us to pronounce that we're the expert, whereas how can we become the recognized.

Expert, Right. So, yeah. 

[00:53:04] Dayna: So we'll, yeah. In that, absolutely. Oh, thank you. Thank you. 

[00:53:11] Travis: Yeah. So, so, yeah. so. How could people find you if they, they wanna track you down on social and they track me down, find out that, find me on social media. Find out that you've, you've taken a break for a while. , how can they join your newsletter?

[00:53:27] Dayna: Thank you. That's, that's a better way to do it. you could go to my website and let me give you the back slash on it. So dana del val.com/rediscover. We'll let you sign up for the newsletter and my name is D A Y N A. D E L V A l.com/rediscover. Yeah. Then you'll get my Sunday newsletter, which is all I do.

So you won't get 42 other emails a day from me, I promise. You'll get a few when you first sign up as sort of a welcoming thing. And then it just becomes a weekly newsletter. And, yeah, for the moment I'm on other social media, but by the time this airs out, who knows? I may have taken a complete ludite hiatus, so we better just stick with the newsletter.

[00:54:08] Travis: Nice. Not put that in the show notes, for people to click on. And, yeah, so thanks again for, for coming on. It's, it's always great to, to catch up and, we'll definitely have to do this again, make this a regular part of the 

[00:54:20] Dayna: show. Oh, I so enjoyed it. I cannot wait to follow up with whatever, whatever sparks from this Travis.

So thanks so much. Yeah, thanks.



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Travis L. Scott

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