The Winding Road

Stacey Danheiser: How to Become a Marketing Linchpin at Your Company

• Travis L. Scott / Stacey Danheiser • Episode 46

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0:00 | 45:30

In this week's episode, I chat with Stacey Danheiser who pivoted from marketing within Fortune 500 companies to building and running her own company. 

This episode is like free mentoring and is a must listen for new and experienced marketers alike- especially if you’re an early-career marketer.

She provides some insight that will help marketers navigate how marketing works within their companies and how to be persuasive to get more done and become an internal linchpin. 

Stacy is the founder and CEO of Shake Marketing. She's the author of two books, and she has also built and runs a community called Soar Marketing Society she's a contributing writer for the Rev Genius community that we are both a part of.


Topics discussed:

  • What was the catalyst to pivot and start your own company? 
  • I was really surprised by the lack of understanding within the organization of what marketing is
  • Educating my marketing peers on what good marketing looks like and what role marketing should play.
  • Leveraging your relationships
  • The decision-making process has changed
  • Go meet with your sales team or travel with your sales team, or sit on customer phone calls
  •  Trying to mitigate the fear
  •  The role of internal selling. Not everybody's comfortable doing that


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Ep#46 - How to Become a Marketing Linchpin at Your Company with Stacey Danheiser

[00:00:00] Travis: Welcome to the Whining Road podcast. I'm Travis, your host, and today, I'm joined by Stacy Danheiser, the founder and CEO of Shake Marketing. She's the author of two books, Value, which she wrote in 2017. Maybe they didn't write it, but they published it in 2017 and standout marketing, which came out in 2020.

About three years apart, I wrote mine about three years ago, and I'm starting to get the itch to do it again. It's kind of like running a marathon. Like, it, it's, it's a lot of work. And you think, Man, I'll be glad when this is over. And then it's over. And then some time goes by and you forget the painful parts.

And you're like, I want to do that again. Exactly. So, I'm on that. And she also built and runs a community called Soar Marketing Society. And she's a contributing writer for Rev Genius, a community that we're both a part of. And so welcome, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:02] Stacey: Right. Thanks for having me. Good to be here. Yeah. 

[00:01:05] Travis: Excited, o chat. And I talk a lot about career pivots and within marketing. And you're a marketer, and you made a massive pivot in 2014. You lived in Denver at the time. You're in Florida now. And you work for some of the larger companies in the Denver area, Janus, level three, EchoStar.

And then, in 2014, you made a pivot to start, start your own company. What, was the catalyst? What happened at that 

[00:01:34] Stacey: point? Yeah, well, I'll, I'll give a little quick background. I started my career in the B2C market. And straight, you know, I got a marketing degree in, in school.

I went to the University of Colorado, went buffs, go B, and went immediately into marketing. And my title was acquisition marketing. So I got a real, Kind of crash course in marketing aligned to business goals. And I loved it. I was managing a multimillion-dollar budget. I worked for at and t Broadband, which later became Comcast.

So we were doing commercials, TV commercials in English, TV commercials in Spanish. I was flying around the country and doing photo shoots and product placements, you know, for ads. So it was really a fun, very fun industry and an enjoyable job for my first job out of college. I spent about six years in b2c.

I worked for two or three cable companies, then switched to b2b. That was my first major pivot: going from B to C to B to B. Mm-hmm. And I was surprised by the lack of understanding within the organisation of what marketing is. So in B2C, there is no entire sales organisation.

Marketing is the sales department, so we could only sometimes prove every dollar we were spending. It was very well understood by the executive team that we needed to do research and that we would launch campaigns, and then you would get to see the results of those campaigns.

Right away, it was either working or not working, so we could make it. Changes then. And so it was different, you know, going over to a B2B organisation where, where most of you know, my budget was slashed dramatically compared to working in b2c. But then, second, just all of a sudden, I had to work with the sales organisation.

And, I quickly realised that my success was going to hinging on the fact that I had to build a relationship with the product team and with the sales organisation and start explaining what marketing is and the value that marketing can bring and, sort of my view of marketing, which was always more on the strategic side.

[00:03:43] Stacey: So I, I worked at level three for about six years, and while I was there, I spent equal time in strategy and execute. And I mean, that was, that was a really, great opportunity. You know, working for a larger company, you get to move around into different roles, and I certainly got out of, you know, the traditional kind of marketing, branding department.

And I worked in a strategy organisation. I worked for a couple of different business units there. And I was leading, by the time I left, I was responsible for field marketing for our large enterprise segment, which was targeting Fortune 500 companies. And so helping the sales organisation build, you know, account-based marketing plans to go into these, these big, giant, companies.

So, I did one more stint for Janus after I left level three, which was in the financial services industry. and that was an asset management company. And it was, it was really, interesting to kind of switch gears and go from kind of the tech, telecom world to financial services. Mm-hmm. one, it was highly regulated, which, you know, marketers don't necessarily love

Yeah. every idea was pretty much, No, no, no, here's, you know, a list of, things that you're allowed to do. So I was always trying to push the envelope. But the other piece that I realized was that, marketing was, was very much just within the industry, the financial services industry itself, very much further behind than where telecom was.

And I compare it to, I think, you know, if you think of the catalyst that happened that kind of made marketing and sales start, going with the new approach was that in 2000 the tech bubble burst. And all of a sudden then it became a little bit more emphasis on the branding piece and how marketing and sales are working together.

It's not just relationships, it's not just everybody's buying whatever you're putting out there. That did not happen in financial services until 2008, until the, you know, the big, housing bubble burst. And so, The, the industry itself was just a little bit further behind, so I was bringing, you know, maybe sophisticated marketing concepts into this organization.

And, and a lot of it was, They just weren't ready. A lot of it, you know, I spent a lot of time kind of educating, I mean, I used to host lunch and learns and you know, was very much trying to just educate the rest of my marketing peers as well as my sales stakeholders and product team on what good marketing looks like and what role marketing should play.

So after about two years of that, I kind I felt like I was ready to go out on my own. This is a very long winded question or answer to your question, but No, this. Wanted to give you that background that, you know, I was doing a lot of internal selling, is what I call it. That was internal education, internal selling.

And I figured if I'm doing this much selling and putting this much effort to it, I might as well go try my own thing. Hmm. And you know, I grew up in an entrepreneurial household. My dad started a company, when I was in high school. And so I got to kind of watch him build that from the ground up. So I knew always in the back of my mind that I was going to start my own thing one day.

Mm-hmm. , I just didn't necessarily know the timing. And then, you know, after sort of that experience, I, I, I really was like, Okay, I, this is the, this is the best time to do it. So my husband was very supportive and, and he's like, Let's, let's go. And, you know, at the time there's a lot of advice that says you should have your whole business plan and have a whole bunch of clients lined up and all this stuff.

But I was, you know, a young. I was younger, I was, my kids were more needy. They were in elementary school, I think, and there was no way that I had time to go build like a whole entire side business or side gig. So, what I actually did was I, I went and I, when I resigned, I said, I'm leaving, but you know, I want you guys to be my first.

And so , they did, they became my first client. Nice. So, and that, that really helped me buy some time because I, I, my scope then of my job, you know, dramatically, was condensed into one specific project, which then freed up my time to then go figure out the rest of my, my business plan and, and start building, you know, my, my packages and my website and all that.

So, 

[00:07:48] Travis: yeah, you know, that's it. And thanks for that context. That's great. That, that sparked a few, few questions, to, to dive into further. but, but the way you, you started I think is, is interesting because a lot of people think right now that you have to start something on the side and kind of work your way, and, and that's tough and, and it's not sustainable and it gets to a point.

You have to make a decision at some point cuz you're so busy. It's either what are you gonna say no to? And if your business isn't quite there, profitability or you know, like revenue-wise, income, to make that leap, it you, you could be building momentum and have to say no to that or, or find a different way to work through it.

And I, and I think, the way you did it was, was, was great because, If you don't bird bridges, if you have a good relationship, if you've built trust with your current employer and it just makes sense for you to go off on your own, they get that. And, and so I had mentioned when we were talking before I hit record, that I was just had interviewed Jenny Blake for the podcast and.

She has done something similar. She left, she was at Google and she left to start her own business. and Google became one of her clients and still is actually, and it's been several years since she left. And so, so yeah, that's why relationships matter, right? 

[00:09:08] Stacey: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I, I, and it's, you know, my, my, My employer before Janice became my second client.

So I was like, I'll just go through my list of all the, the companies I've worked at here and try to reach back out because actually the, the industries are so small, a lot of people tend to stay sort of within the same industry and, and, and, you know, you leverage your relationship. That was like the one major benefit I think of working in, in corporate before going out on my own is that I had a pretty good network and a lot of people had, You know, perceptions of, of me and the work that I could do just based on that real life interaction that we had within that corporate environment.

[00:09:48] Travis: Yeah, exactly. And, and you also mentioned something about your career, and, and, and a lot of my audience, they, they're marketers, so, so I think they'll appreciate this kind of side side, track is you started in B2C and moved to b2b, and those are very, Like you said, b2c, you don't really have salespeople.

The marketing is the, the sales, right. That generates the sales. And I was in B2B and I think there's things you can learn from B2C in marketing and apply it to b2b and I've, I've always heard people argue, No, they're so different. But I think what's interesting now, and I'd love to get your take on this.

because there's so much information available at people people's fingertips because their decision making process has changed. They have access to more information to make a decision that can do so much more research before they make a purchase. Even on the B2B side that I, I feel like there's a shift happening to where even b2b.

Has to start acting like B to C where marketing basically leads them up to the sale. And I had, I had a conversation with someone yesterday who, who said something that, was pretty insightful, that he had heard from someone that salespeople don't close the deal, the buyer closes the deal. And so I think marketers need to shift and realize that.

They have to do more to nurture the sale and get it pretty much to where the buyer's making the decision. It's just kind of a transaction. Mm-hmm. , what, what do you, what do you think about that having been in both 

[00:11:25] Stacey: spaces? Well, I mean, first of all, when I see that, feedback about B2B needs to act like b2c, I kind of feel like sometimes it's taken out of context.

When I, when I go and I look at who's making those, Assumption, you know, those statements, It's basically a lot of agency type folks who maybe are bored, they wanna do something more creative or more fun. And so they're saying B2B is so boring. But actually I've, so having worked on both, having worked in a, with agencies on both and actually having been in buyer in both, there, there are a lot of similarities.

I think first number one is, We are all consumers, so we don't show up at work and then suddenly become not a consumer. So we are bringing these, perceptions with us to our B2B job. and if we're responsible for making purchases, we're comparing it to Amazon. Mm-hmm. . Right? How easy is it to add to car checkout?

You may also like, Oh yeah, I need that too. Let me add it to car checkout. Done Whole transaction took less than five minutes and I did it on my phone. And so we're, we want that in b2b. So I think it's more, for me it's, it's more than just marketing. I think there's a big element of customer experience.

Mm-hmm. and really understanding how buyers, B2B buyers want to buy and making the whole experience just better. Mm. you know, so that's kind of one, one piece. I think number two is that, you know, what was really. And, and I would encourage people to this, you know, could be a side project or a side, a side, gig is if you're working in b2b, go try to do something for a B2C company.

Maybe write email series for them, or, you know, learn about how people are actually, making decisions over there because. As I mentioned sort of earlier, we had a really big budget. We spent a lot of our budget on creative. We spent a lot of time and a lot of budget on, on creative that would break through the clutter.

So it wasn't just, you know, Hey, let's, what's the lowest budget producer and the lowest budget actor, and the lowest budget everything that we could find. No. Which is, that's the, that's sort of the methodology in B2B is like, I barely wanna spend any money on the creative, but then I'm expecting it to break through the clutter and expecting it to work.

Exactly. So that, that's like a mind shift piece that's, you know, people don't really understand that. You know, you hear how much money spent on Superbowl ads, And that's just on the ad placement itself, not, you know, then there's a whole separate other creative fee that they spent with the agency, you know, in New York to create the thing.

So those, those two pieces kind of go hand in hand. You need really, really good, creative. And then the third piece is that, You know, B2B marketers are very far removed from the customer. Mm-hmm. , and this is something that I'm super passionate about and, and advocate for. And you know, my company, Shake Marketing group, we do customer research specifically to help companies with their value proposition because a lot of times, , you know, the company's out there saying one message, and the the customer has a completely different view of the value that it's providing in their world.

And this is where you hear things like, you know, tap into customer insights. What does that really mean? It means, do you actually know how, why somebody bought your service? Do you actually know why they chose you versus somebody else? And then do you know what value it's providing in their world? Mm-hmm.

and when I do these interviews, I always talk to people on the internal side. I talk to the sales team and the product team and the marketing team, and I say, Okay, why? What's the number one value? Why are people buying your stuff? Then I go and I ask that same question, those same questions to customers.

And you know, 99% of the time there is something that the customer says that nobody over on the internal side is, is even thinking about. Mm-hmm. and you know, I compare it to. Almost like an onion, you know, peeling the, the layers of the onion back. The company is, is talking about layer one of the onion, and the customer is thinking, why actually, why did I really buy that thing?

Oh, because, you know, this is dramatically helping me improve my job and here's how it, it's helping me improve my job. So they're going three or four layers deep. That's not just sort of a surface level value proposition. And, and it sounds almost, You know, like a platitude that, because so many people are saying the same thing, and so you know, that's, that's a piece in b2c.

You are very close to the customer. You can. You can go sit in the call center and listen to the phone calls that are coming in. You can go look through the transactions and the notes that people are making. You can go look at the chat, the chat reels, and you know, all the stuff that the people are saying real time.

Mm-hmm. . So, you know, And, and then the other piece I, I kind of briefly mentioned, we always had budget for research, always in b2c. Mm-hmm. . And in b2b, that's kind of like unheard of. Yeah. You know, in fact, I have a, A data point. It's, I, I did this, you know, this scorecard that I created called the Confident Marketer Scorecard, that just lets marketers really test their, their abilities, kind of around four key areas of what does it take to be a confident marketer.

And one of the questions I had in there had to do with research and how frequently you're doing research and if this is something that's, that's budgeted and, and how formal you treat this. And, you know, 90% of the people said, you know, we don't do any of that. We don't do. Research. And so, you know, in, in b2c we, we would do focus groups, we would hire companies to call people.

You know, we were, we would purchase third party data. We were always looking, we were testing creative and, and doing kind of ab testing all the time, like in real time before we would, I mean, if you, if you imagine you're not gonna go spend multimillions of dollars on, on something that, you know, is, is maybe gonna flop.

And so, That's just sort of another mindset, methodology piece that's just very different between the two. 

[00:17:09] Travis: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and you had mentioned internal selling. Right? And I think if someone has, is moved into a role, pivoted into a role within marketing and, and they're listening to this and I mean, if you follow Chris Walker and anyone from REFINE Labs, they're very much about b2b, get to know the costume.

And, and start to think about things as, as b B2C almost, and, and getting people up to the point where they really need to talk to sales. Right. And, how, how would you, what advice would you have for someone who, who hears this and says, Yes, we need to do more of these things. How can they sell it within, Within their org?

Yeah. 

[00:17:55] Stacey: Okay. So this is, this is like my, , my Passion project. I mentioned the Confident Marketer, playbook. So I just, I, I have created a, a group coaching mastermind program that is really designed to do this, to help people elevate their role because I think, you know, I, I, I like a lot of the advice that I see on LinkedIn and, and it's not wrong.

I think the piece that people are forgetting is the internal lens. And that if you have not worked inside of an organization where you have a lot of super strong personalities and very assertive, people to deal with, there's no, you're not gonna get any of this stuff, sold in because. Your primary job at that point becomes all about collaboration and buy-in.

And so the, the playbook is really designed to help marketers kind of elevate and, and really give a framework to show their CEO or show their Chief Revenue officer who typically has a sales background, what good marketing looks like. And you know, I have this nine step process steps. Step eight is all about execution.

And that's, that's where everybody wants to start. Let's just start at step eight execution, and we're gonna skip seven steps, and then we're gonna expect somehow the execution to be miraculous and, and provide all these results. So, there's a couple things that I would say. So sort of internally, number one is, You have to sort of understand the role that marketers are play within your organization.

Mm-hmm. . And so I like to do an interview kind of style question. And here we are, you know, September, we're coming up through to annual planning. This is a great time to do this exercise where you sit down with your key stakeholders in the product, organization, the sales organization, your executive. , you know, finance, whoever is kind of helping make those, those calls and decisions about, about marketing.

And one of the questions I like to ask is, what do you think is the role of marketing? And so perception is reality and we have to start there. So if they say, Well, the marketing team puts together events, okay, then you know what you're working with, then you know what you have to challenge and what you have to educate against.

You know, I mentioned I spent two years inside of one organization, six years in another organization where I was literally doing this all the time. And, and it was always interesting because I, my whole entire goal, I kind of became like, you know, I wanna see if I can change their mind. They came in with this perception.

I wanna see if I can challenge them and change their mind. And so, so, so step one is understanding what do people think your role is versus what do you think your role. And recognizing that if there's a gap there. the second thing is, is really identifying your stakeholders. And, you know, we used to say, develop your stakeholder management plan.

How frequently are you meeting with these people? What are you doing to build a relationship? You know, I think people get very excited and eager, especially when they start a new job. And they completely forget that step too. Mm-hmm. . And so they, they get in and they just start executing stuff and then all of a sudden somebody over in this other department that you've never even met or heard of, like completely derails your project.

Mm. And so it's, it's really kind of building out a plan and starting to, to proactively build relationships with people that are gonna help you, um, advocate. And be your, your allies to, to do the thing, the projects and the initiatives and the ideas that you have and help those, those come to life. Mm. and then, and then part three is, is, is helping basically establishing your credibility.

And what I mean by that is, Again, marketers right now, especially in a lot of BBB organizations are seen as order takers. They're seen as executors. They, they're seen as, you know, what's the tactical plan? Come in and build my email automation, or come in and help us set up our crm, and to move into a more strategic view and a more strategic role.

You have to, number one, understand the products and what you. And not talking about like, Oh, I looked at the website and I read the copy, but really spending time with the product team and understanding like, help me understand what this product is. Why did we develop it? You know, walk me through the sort of technical details of it.

And then two is to understand the business and how the company actually makes money. And this is always an eye opening exercise because a lot of marketers don't know they're, you know, I hear things like, well we do don't have access to that inform. Well, somebody does, and they're certainly not, you know, hiring a whole bunch of people and, and, and, trying to make payroll.

If they have no idea what the profit margins are, where the business is coming from, which products are, and ge you know, it's, it could be by product, by geography. and, and by customer segment, that's what, you know, three areas that I would look at to say, Okay, what, where's really the majority of our money coming from?

How does our company make money? And then the third thing is to understand the sales process. So, you know, we talk a lot about marketers. We need to understand the buying process and understand your customer's world and understand the buying process that they're going through, which I 100% agree to. But the other piece of that puzzle is understand how you're selling process overlays with that.

Mm-hmm. . And you know, I don't know, have you ever gone to sales training? Mm-hmm. ? Yeah. . And so a lot of, a lot of marketers have never done sales training. They've never read a sales book or have gone to sales training. And so, you know, that would be a really, if your company, especially larger organizations, of course, they kind of sponsor, you know, annual sales training.

but if you work at a, a larger organization, I would say go try to get, a seat at the next sales training methodology so you could learn the language that your sellers are using. internally, and you start using that and you're seen as a credible member because you understand their world. and if you work in a smaller organization, go talk to your head of sales and say, Okay, gimme, you know, the top one or two sales books that you recommend, What's your favorite sales methodology?

[00:24:00] Stacey: Who are the top sales? You know, salespeople, you follow on, on LinkedIn so that you can start to become familiar with what it's like to be a sales person. Mm-hmm. . Because when those two things connect, all of a sudden marketing's credibility goes way up. Now they understand the products, they understand the business and how they're making money, and they understand the sales process.

You're, you're, you're kind of catapulted as to how you're viewed then internally, right? Because you can now make recommendations outside of, you know, I think we should do another, paid ad campaign, or I think we should change our SEO keywords. This now becomes something that's, that's definitely, more strategic and plugged in and your, your perspective has been sought out more because you're seen as, Oh, they get it.

They understand the business, they understand the customers, they understand sort of what we're trying to achieve. Let's see what they think. 

[00:24:49] Travis: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, asked if I had been in sales training. M my career has been non-linear, in a lot of ways, and I've been in sales training because I was in sales at one point in time and as painful as it was to be in sales.

now I look back and it's made me, it made me a better marketer for those reasons that you just described, because now I understand why. Sales would get angry with certain leads. Right. I, I know the time it takes to do what they do. I know what's important to them because it was important to me. And in understanding that from that side, and, and I would almost say like if, if you're in an organization where you could do this, where you could maybe say, Hey, for the.

[00:25:39] Travis: Three to six months. I actually wanna be in a sales role. I want to get in and do it. If, if you have the ability, if the company has the ability to kind of cover, slide some resources over. It will just help the company because you'll be a better recruiter. You'll build better relationships with sales because they'll be your teammates now and then you come back to marketing and you'll have a whole different perspective.

And you've talked to customers, guess what? You're talking to the customers and yeah, you'll come back into marketing and it'll be a whole different world for you. And so I think if you can do. If your company will allow that, I mean, make that short term pivot to get that experience right. Yeah, 

[00:26:19] Stacey: it's, yeah, I mean I think that's a really, I think that's a really good point.

cuz I, I do see, you know, the advice, Hey, go meet with your sales team or travel with your sales team, or sit on customer phone calls with the sales team and the piece that I would say, People forget about in that, Again, going back to, that's great advice. However, let's look at the reality of sort of the internal dynamics.

[00:26:41] Stacey: Sales people are not going to just let any marketer come tag along to their real life customer conversations unless they believe the marketer is there to add value. Mm-hmm. , and that the marketer gets it. Mm-hmm. . And so the worst, the worst case scenario is, you know, the, the marketer tags along, opens their mouth, says something, and then derails the whole entire sale.

So, you know, the sales people are very guarded with who they let in to those, live conversations. And so going back to sales training and building relationship with, with your sales team and reading sales books and or working in a sales role helps to then. Establish that relationship, and then they, they start letting you in.

And I spent a lot of time traveling with the sales team and meeting with their customers. And, but I had to do all that stuff first to show them that, you know, I wasn't just a marketer going to ask questions about, you know, What did you think about the food that we served at the last event? Or, you know, something was not very value 

[00:27:37] Travis: added.

Yeah. Like what, what button do you prefer or what color do you prefer CTA buttons to be like, nobody cares, . 

[00:27:45] Stacey: Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:27:46] Travis: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, and, and I think understanding how to sell internally. Well also help you understand like the same if you're in b2b, that same process is happening with your customers.

If you're, even if you're not selling a marketing tool or SaaS tool or platform or product, it's still happening. If you're selling to engineering, somebody there saw what you sell and they have to tell other people. It's not like in B2C where I see something on Amazon. Worst case scenario, I have to ask my wife about it.

But most of the time I don't, I don't have a committee. I don't have other people that I need to get buy in from. Right. To buy, buy a book, you know, like, Yeah, exactly. My wife just gave up on being angry about how many books I get. , she's just like, whatever. You could be spending money on far worse things.

And so, uh,Yeah, that's true. But, but no matter what you're doing, if it's b2b, , there's gonna be more than one person and the person that you influence right away, they're always gonna, you know, the question is for them, what do I tell my boss? So how do I explain this to, to my boss? Or cuz then you've gotta get buy in from them and so now they're a salesperson for your product internally.

So from a marketer's perspective, you have to be able to market in a way that you arm that person with as. You're, you're so clear on the value that you provide, that that person can then go clearly articulate that to their boss and anyone else within the org that they need to. And I think if you can do that internally, it's like being on a sales team and learning how sales works.

Now you know how those committees work, the buying committees, and you know, what information do they need to share with the rest of the people. To sell my product to them, right? 

[00:29:47] Stacey: Mm-hmm. . So, yeah. I love that you bring that up because I, I say this as well, like the, the process that you go through to develop really great marketing externally for your customers is the same exact process that you need to go through.

To sell your ideas internally. And you know, I think there was some stat that says, you know, 70% of of of change initiatives fail because lack of buy-in, which basically means your job at that point is like selling people and, and trying to get their buy-in. And buy-in does not mean consensus. It does not mean that every single person agrees with every step of, of what you're proposing.

It just means that you've collaborated. To get everybody's perspective and that you still sort of developed a plan and made a decision to move forward. Mm-hmm. and, and, and that, you know, getting people to nod their heads like, Yeah, okay, you're not doing the, the exact. Six things that I want. You're only doing four, but fine.

Let's try it. Let's see if it works. Hmm. So it is, it's, it's, it's the same process, you know, starting with the first step, which is who is on that, you know, buying committee internally. Mm-hmm. , is it just your head, your head of sales, or do you have to reach out and get other people, like in the product team or the cfo or the CEO or, or other departments?

It, for example, if you have some, you know, tech initiative, So it's, it's kind of defining who is on that committee, making sure that you understand what their, what they care about and how, what their definition of good is. Mm-hmm. and, and kind of painting a realistic picture that here's how long it's going to take.

Here's the resources we're we're going to need. I think internally, people, at least in my experience, wanna know like what their role. You know, because I, I was always like, I'm an enthusiast, right? I'm a like, Oh my gosh, I have this really great idea and I wanna go check, test it out. And other I realized, you know, quickly, other people were not as enthusiastic as I was about some my ideas.

Mostly because they were like, I already have a full-time day job and now you want me to add this other project. So I had to start really outlining for. Here's the timeline. Here's what's required from you. I need you to attend a meeting once a week for four weeks, you know, for one hour. I need your, your brain power.

Can you, can you commit to that? Okay. Yes. You know, versus some nebulous, open-ended thing that feels like there is no, clear involvement for, for how they should be, participating. So, and then I think. Yeah, I think that this goes both ways. Once you kind of have that process for your own self and your own ideas, you can then apply it when other people come to you with their ideas.

So, you know, I remember one, market that I worked with, they were very adamant that they wanted to do. Radio advertising and billboards in, in their market. And so, you know, we would go through the annual sales, marketing planning process and I would reach out to the sales team and I'd say, Okay, gimme your wishlist.

Like, what are the things on there? And. They always, every time it was, you know, billboards and radio ads and I, I basically applied this same process. I'm like, Okay, well how can we evaluate whether or not that's a good idea? I don't wanna be in the position that just says, Okay, yes, we're gonna go start executing and, you know, find a voice over to go to a radio spot.

Let's figure out, does, does this really make sense for this market? And then get their, get their thoughts. They really just, You know, they see their competitors on the radio and so they're like, Our competitors are there. We need to be there. And so, you know, explaining things back to them and showing them why it does or doesn't make sense.

Then all of a sudden now they're, they're kind of bought in like, Okay, yeah, that you're right. Maybe radio spots are way more expensive than I thought they were going to be. Let's, let's use that money and do something different. And so it becomes sort of that two-way process. 

[00:33:45] Travis: Yeah. And, and I mean, ha having data is, is always a good thing, right?

And, and if you can back up, it's not now, it's not just your opinion or your, your preference, but there's, there's some data behind it. And, and I think that goes to whether, whether you're in selling something internally or you are the one who's responsible for purchasing something internally, or you are interviewing for a new role within the company.

With a new company, you're still selling, selling your yourself, your ideas. The same things apply and, and, and the same thing that you're trying to solve for. It's, it's the same thing across the board for any of those things. And that's fear. Mm-hmm. , you're trying to mitigate fear, whereas I buy something on Amazon.

I'm not gonna get fired for that book. I buy a car, it's a big decision, but I'm not gonna get fired if I buy this car. Right? And if I'm, if I see a, see something, a tool, a platform that I think we can use and I need to sell it internally, I'm mitigating fear of. What if it doesn't work? Cuz that's where they're gonna go.

Right? Well, I don't think that'll work. What if it doesn't work? What's that gonna cost us? What it would impact? Will that have, And then for the buyer themselves who, who want to push this through, That's probably the biggest hangup to pulling the trigger is that at the last minute they just think, what if this goes wrong?

Like, what if this doesn't work? I'm implementing this new crm. That's a big thing, like that could blow up the entire company. What if it goes wrong? Right. And so like if I'm selling hubs spot, Like, that's, that's real, right? Mm-hmm. , how, how do you mitigate the fear of, of whether you're selling an idea internally or trying to pitch a product that you want?

And from a marketer's perspective, I think you have to understand that fear, and that's why the, everything you do has to be, and it translates to internally too. Everything you do has to chip away at that. Right. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:36:03] Stacey: Yeah, and I think a, a way to, you know, I, I, I will tell you from my, and I even now sort of with, with client work and consulting work, but when, especially when I was in these internal corporate marketing roles, I spent a lot of time with my stakeholders.

and really diving in and understanding sort of all of those scenarios and what was really on their mind. It was not, you know, we didn't show up to a group meeting and have some group think and then go back and come up with a plan. I spent one on one time with every single person before the group meeting to make sure I had a full picture of what every concern was and every issue and every possible what if scenario before I walked.

I, Cause I didn't wanna be derailed, I was the, you know, project leader and I didn't wanna be derailed in these, in these group meetings. So I spent a lot of time, the meeting, before the meeting so that we would, you know, come to agreement and make sure that everybody was, was aligned in those big group meetings versus that was not really the time for everybody to, air their concerns.

So, you know, I, that, that again kind of goes back to that concept of the stakeholder management and I just don't, you know, I don't know how much time people really. Doing that. I talk to a lot of marketers who are frustrated, that their, that their team doesn't understand marketing and that, you know, they feel like they're order takers for the sales organization or they feel like their CEO has an idea tactic of the day they have to go implement.

And so, you know, I think there's this back piece where it's like the perception of the marketing team is, is not aligned with what their expectations are. And, and then I think too, Spending time to really kind of ask those hard questions. You know, what are your biggest issues, What are your biggest concerns?

What could happen if something, if we implement this and something goes wrong, Okay, well what if it goes right? You know, and, and sort of having those, that dialogue with people so that you can get inside their head a little bit more. 

[00:38:04] Travis: Yeah, and, and having done it for so long in, in so many d different orgs, Did you get to a point where before you even initiated the conversations that, that there was, you could anticipate kind of the same thing happening, the same, the same, objections was, was there anything that you knew that, okay, I can guarantee they're gonna bring this up, or this is something I have to deal with.

And it was pretty much every time you, you, you kind of figured out that's what I've gotta deal with. 

[00:38:40] Stacey: Yes. So I think, you know, people, one, one was the aha that I kind of mentioned earlier, which was, What is the amount of work this is going to be to me?

Mm-hmm. and you know, because I was always the, I, you know, coming up with new ideas and connecting the dots between what customers want and what trends are out there and where the sales team is struggling. And I was kind of always coming up with campaigns or ideas or plans that. We're outside of the norm for the organization.

People first were just a little bit hesitant, so I, I ended up having to spend a lot more time. I would say educating on what marketing is. I mean, if you think about our, our roles, we of course eat, breathe, sleep. all about marketing. Mm-hmm. , but our counterparts do not, and especially in it. And I worked in one organization where, where a lot of the initiatives that I wanted to do were all tech related.

And I had to, convince the IT team that this was important and this is the priority and the impact it was gonna make on the organization, but they were very, very resistant. And so I had to come armed with telling 'em about, you know, trends and why, why I wanted to do certain things and. Show them what the, the impact would be, to the business, but then also to their department or their, their individual jobs and kind of, what was I requesting from a resource standpoint?

So, you know, I kind of just got used to that, approach that, you know, I, I was like, okay, people are gonna have the same type of questions, you know, how much does it cost? How long is it gonna take? What's the impact the organization, if it goes right, what are the things that could go wrong? And then how many wor res, how many resources, and kind of what's the time that you're, you're asking for?

And so outlying those things ahead of time. and then a lot of people, I would say, too wanted, prioritization kind of how does this fit into org priorities? So, you know, we would come out with our, our marketing plans and our marketing goals. Ideally tied, you know, directly to the business. But then you have to keep reminding people throughout the year, remember, one of our business goals is to do X.

We're growing revenue by X percent. This is how this particular initiative directly supports that company goal. And then, you know, the, a lot of people at that point really were reminded what the company goals were because, you know, there's, most people don't, you know, think about that every single day, unless you're the ceo.

you know, and constantly talking about the company goals. when you start getting down into individual departments, you, you, a lot of people are losing sight of that. So, so just reminding people why, why we're doing things. 

[00:41:20] Travis: Yeah. And I think that's the power of OKRs in organizations, because you're aligned at the top level business goals, Right?

And then each, then that filters to the next. Who have O OKRs whose primary objectives are to support the top level goals and on and on and on. Mm-hmm. . So I talked with Jeff, got help about that, last fall, in a, in a podcast interview. And so I think that's super important. I know we're coming up on time.

One last question I have for you Yeah. Is what, you know, you kind of took on that role of internal selling, right? Not everybody's comfortable doing that. Not like you mentioned many marketers don't do that. What impact did that have on your career in, in the career tr trajectory? compared to your peers who wouldn't engage in that, Wouldn't do that.

[00:42:14] Stacey: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good question. I think, you know, one definitely I got, eligible for leadership roles and I mentioned it at one company. I moved around, I think I had. Four or five jobs, different jobs. I think I had eight managers during that. Oh, wow. During that time. But I was constantly moving around and people were like, Yeah, we want, we want her on our team, because I was getting stuff done and also doing it in a very, very collaborative way.

And so that, that kind of was became my, my reputation. The other piece that I would say is because then when I went out on my own, . there was, I had a, I had a pretty big network of people that I had person had personally developed relationships with. And so, you know, and, and, and this was, I would say before sort of the whole personal branding boom.

Mm-hmm. , I wasn't really in intentional about personal branding until a few years later and, and definitely into that job as a marketing consultant and, mentor. But it be, it was interesting because a lot of the people in my network would say, Oh, she's the most strategic marketer I've ever worked with, or, She totally understands sales.

You need to bring her on. And so they, you know, that was my personal brand. And so I started to, you know, embrace that a little bit more. And, and then that ended up becoming kind of in influential in my, you know, packages that I would promote. and into the books and things like that. So it was, it was good to just, yeah.

Have that I think as a, as a foundation. Mm-hmm. . So spending time and it, you know, again, they say business is all about relationships and it, it really is mm-hmm. . And so I think people are trying to do that at scale with social media and with, you know, podcasting and, but it's, you know, I, I am a big believer that there are no shortcuts to that.

And that, that it really does, it does take time and. You know, that was kind of just proving that out. . 

[00:44:10] Travis: Yeah. And I think the key is like, it does take time and you need to start building relationships, with noth without expecting anything in return. Well, before you need to leverage your network for something if something happens.

Right. cause like far too many people will. Not put the time into building relationships, and then they get laid off or something changes and they're like, Oh shit, I've gotta go find a new job. Who can I tap in my network? Who you know, Right. Who can I find out there and reach out to them and network, and it just doesn't, doesn't work that way.

Yeah. 

[00:44:44] Stacey: I mean, I think, yes, spending time definitely with, with people in your company is. A great thing. Calling people and asking them for their advice is another thing. So people are generally open and will share like, Hey, I had this marketing idea, I want, can I get your advice? I wanna, you know, who else do you think I should loop in?

Or what do you think about this? It's just a great way, you know, Cause a lot of people, I think when they hear add value or. , you know, whatever it's like, Yeah. But if you're kind of newish in your, in your job, then you might be thinking, Well, what value am I gonna be able to bring to somebody who's the VP of sales?

And so it's really not about trying to push some education, but about listening to them. Hey, I just wanna know like, what are your biggest struggles, you know, selling to people, What are you hearing? What would make your job easier? , like, help me just understand your world a little bit more and, and can I get your advice on things like, who else do you think I should talk to?

That goes a long way to help build, you know, the two-way dialogue, which is really at the end of the day what you want. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:45:47] Travis: Yeah, and I mean, I think that's, that's how you and I first talked. I, I reached out to you for advice on how you built your consulting company, cuz I was building, building mine.

And, and just wanted to hear how you had done it. So, so, yeah. yeah, you were very generous and, and, Hopped on a call with me and, and, it was very helpful. So, so yeah, and I think that's the, the backbone of building relationships is just being generous, being helpful, and the law of reciprocity will happen, right?

Like yeah. And that it all comes back, but you can't go into it with that as the end game of, I'm, I'm doing this to get something back. You just have to just do it right and yeah. And rely on serendipity to just. 

[00:46:29] Stacey: Yeah. I love like the, the, the mindset of serving. Hmm. Like, how can I, how can I serve you? How can I help you?

And just, you know, it will come back. I mean, we all know those people who are just the takers. Mm-hmm. , they're constantly asking for something or an introduction or, you know, and it's like at some point you're, you get, you just start ignoring it because it's, it's like you're just taking and taking and taking and taking.

You know, where's the giving part of this relationship? . . 

[00:47:01] Travis: Exactly. Exactly. Awesome. Well, I know that we're, we're at time and, and really appreciate you, coming 

[00:47:08] Stacey: on at chat today. Yeah. You, thanks for letting me share that journey, . 

[00:47:11] Travis: Yeah, no, I think it's gonna be very helpful and I think if as a marketer and really any, any role, if you can learn to.

Sell internally. I mean, it's gonna help your career. so, so yeah. Very valuable and really appreciate it. 

[00:47:28] Stacey: Yes. Well, good. Well, I'd love to yeah. Connect with anybody on LinkedIn. I'm, I'm active on LinkedIn. We have a, a free, B2B marketing, community called SOAR Marketing Society that maybe we can share the link to.

Mm-hmm. and then the, the Confident Marketer Playbook, we have that free score. You can just go and assess your, your skills and, see how marketing is in your organization and, and maybe just illuminate some opportunities for, development. Awesome. 

[00:47:56] Travis: Yeah, and I'll throw all those links in the, in the show notes.

And Perfect. that scorecard, is that on your website? Is that where I It is. Could 

[00:48:02] Stacey: find that. Okay. Yep. Perfect. Yes, I'll, I'll share that. 

[00:48:06] Travis: Cool. 

[00:48:08] Stacey: Awesome. All right, thanks 

[00:48:09] Travis: Travis. 



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Travis L. Scott

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