The Finale - Joy is the Life Raft of this Sh*t Show & Farewell for Now

Join my good friend, broadcaster and podcast editor, Katie Still and I as we look back at the Bravehearts Rising journey - where it started, what it's always been about and my thoughts on what's next. 

We also talk about:

• the benefits of podcasting;
• the pressure of productivity and fulfilling your purpose;
• the need to pause to replenish and so much more;
• the importance of staying true to you and doing things your way.

If you're tired and feeling the urge to pause, this is your permission slip. Equally if you have something in your heart you want to share with the world, this is your permission slip too.

Above all else, know that your ripple effect matters.

Thank you to all the listeners. I appreciate everyone of you.

As always, feedback welcome. You can now email me at my brand new  email address: lisa@braveheartsrising.com 

> Read the full transcript here Please note I use Otter.Ai to create transcripts. Sometimes I do miss errors. Let me know if there are any significant issues.

Loved the podcast? Support the show by buying me a virtual cuppa ☕️

Transcript

Lisa Pascoe: 0:09

Hello, hello. Before we dive into today's episode, which is the last episode for now, I wanted to say a massive thank you to all of you out there long-time listeners, new listeners, everyone who has supported this podcast and enjoyed the episodes and the interviews. I've had lots of really interesting conversations over the last few years and having these kind of deeper conversations of the heart means a lot to me. So thank you so much. There has been so much going on behind the scenes. That yeah, at the moment, I am taking a pause, I'm taking my own medicine and listening to my own words and I am pressing pause, and I'm taking a step back, and I'm reflecting on everything really. So I still have plans for Bravehearts in the future, including a website that will be out very soon, definitely by the end of July 2023. So keep your eyes peeled for that. I'm sure I'll make an announcement on Instagram when I am back on Instagram. I've been taking a little bit of a pause from there as well. But yes, braveheartsrising.com will be a thing. I am hoping to organise some online events over the autumn time. I think the one thing I want to say about that is like my vision for Bravehearts Rising has always been a community of folks who... a community of folks who are passionate about creating change in the world, about creativity, about people and humanity and all of those juicy things. But we're also tired. And so my vision has always been this community that kind of celebrates joy and centres wellbeing but also are thinking about justice as well. So it's not just wellbeing on that individual level. It's thinking about collective wellbeing and collective joy and creativity. And I think sometimes the world is such an overwhelming place. And we feel like we have to do everything alone. And this we have the kind of have this big responsibility on our shoulders. And I think there is so much power in conversation and and coming together and saying, Oh yeah, no, me too. I'm struggling with that. Or, oh, you know what, I worked on this community project last week. And, you know, I learnt this and this might help you or ... or I had a really difficult conversation at work and this is how I handled it. And I think it's that peer element. It's... it's sharing experiences, sharing our own life experiences as well, because we all have our own kind of rich and diverse perspectives to bring to the table. And I think that's really crucial. So that's kind of in my heart, my vision, but how that's brought to life, what that looks like - I don't know yet, but I do know that I don't necessarily want to do it alone. Because I think that defeats the object. So we shall see what happens on putting that one out to the universe. I'm kind of planting some seeds for now. Anyhow, I hope that you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it with the lovely Katie. So, yes, grab a broom, grab the dog. Get your rubber gloves on for washing up or whatever it is that you do...that you like to do when you listen to a podcast. So exhale, and enjoy. Hello, and welcome to the final episode of the Bravehearts Rising Podcast. I'm the host, Lisa Pascoe. But for today, I'm handing over the mic to the wonderful Katie Still, who for those who have been listening for many years will know that Katie has been the editor of all of the major episodes and interviews that I've done with folks. And yeah, and a really good friend. And so I'm really excited to have her be asking me questions for what feels like a momentous occasion for me because Bravehearts Rising has been a project that's been really close to my heart. And I have loved interviewing each and every one of my guests. They've all brought real kind of personal insights. And we've had some really amazing, meaningful conversations. And for me, that's something that I value so much, I think in today's world where things can feel quite fraught and quite heavy. I think these conversations have created an opportunity to navigate things together and, and help each other find ways of coping and thriving and making a difference. So that's what it's all been about for me. And no doubt at some point. In the future, maybe there'll be Bravehearts Rising 2.0 It might not be a podcast, it might be a community, I don't know. But for now, this is the finale. So hello, and welcome, Katie.

Katie Still: 5:26

Thank you, Lisa. Yeah, it's really nice to actually get the chance to sort of swap roles with you so that I can turn the spotlight on you for a while. And just I think it's a nice way to end it, isn't it when, you know, there is so much work and thought has gone into bravehearts rising from you and the way you've planned it all and the people you've spoken to, and what you also have brought to, obviously, the podcast and your insights, I think are so valuable. So I think it's really fitting actually that we get a chance to have a chat here. And I can just fire a few questions at you just just to sort of give a nice wrap up to it. And I mean, you encapsulated quite a lot there about what it's meant to you. But can we maybe just touch on that thread a little bit more and just see, you know, why did Bravehearts come into being in the first place?

Lisa Pascoe: 6:15

Well, as she goes way back to 2015, I think when Bekky and I were on holiday, and... we were just talking as couples do. We're both the types of people who like to think about how we can make a difference in the world. And we encourage each other to grow and develop. And so yeah, I remember, I think we were both at that point, kind of maybe nervous of certain things. And we came up with the we came up with the term like Head of Bravery. So I Bekky was head of bravery. And like that meant doing brave things. And then we wrote this whole Bravehearts Rising manifesto. It was just like about being authentic and kind to other people. I think that there were more to it than that. But I don't have it right in front of me. And it just totally escapes me what they are now. Maybe I'll add it in in the end. But yes, we wrote this Bravehearts Rising manifesto. And so that was just a thing. And then we didn't think about it for a long time. And then when I decided I wanted to create a podcast, I was thinking about different names. And there were so many names that I thought about. And then I was I remember I was we were in the car driving up the track to your house, and I just went Bravehearts Rising. And I knew I just knew that that was what I wanted to do in that moment, because it is all about those of us in the world who believe in inclusion and creating a world where people are safe to show up, show up as their full selves. And I think that's kind of my lesson. Particularly I think over the last year in terms of like, like that psychological safety and being able to be happy. It's it's around being seen and heard for who you are, and not having to hide parts of yourself. And I think that's so fundamental. And yet, not always simple. Interesting. I don't think it never has been, we've yet to reach that point. So but I want to be part of those conversations really and part of spotlighting other people. I think in like in a world of capitalism, and the world that we live in it so much emphasis is on the individual and on the rise of the individual. And it's quite ego driven. I'm not saying that in a negative way, necessarily, but it is very much that the 'I' is leading. And I think what is needed is more community, more collaboration, people coming together, because we are so cliche, but we are stronger together. I remember when I did a job share when I was at the Red Cross, and it was so much better to have the two of us in the one role. Because we bought different ideas, different backgrounds, and it worked so well. And it was amazing. And I think you know, so often we just put a job out there, for example, a job spec and we just we fill it with the one person and then it's all very fixed and everything's in boxes. But often you can never do all the things in a role. You know, there's always gonna be the person who's much better at the people stuff and someone else who really wants to sit in the back during the admin and, and it feels really arbitrary to me, and like short- sighted that we don't create more flexibility within society to allow people to come together and like complement each other in those ways. And so yeah, that's that's been really important to me, that aspect of it, because I really don't know everything. I only have my perspective as a white queer woman and a Western woman in the world. You know, there's so many other ways to look at things. And you know, you don't know what you don't know?

Katie Still: 10:02

Well, that's a very good, that's a good way to put it. And also, I think, you know, with, with everything that you've touched on there, Bravehearts Rising has certainly been part of that whole conversation. And that's, you know, people wanting and the need to feel part of community and to be very much a true self. And thinking back over, the people that you did connect with, and the people you interviewed is such a wonderful variety of people. And every time me listening as editing, and you know, and what we were speaking about, there was always something that everyone could relate to, regardless of who this was, where they were in the world, and how they showed up. Do you have, you know, any particular standout such sort of conversations with certain people? Or could you just it's very hard to pick anything for, you know, the reasons they were all brought something special?

Lisa Pascoe: 10:58

I'll be honest, sometimes I find it hard to remember what I had for breakfast. Don't we all? I'm thinking about, like, because I think the last proper interview was over a year ago now. So it's been a while. And I really did love all of my conversations for various reasons. And I think what really stands out to me though, is some of the friendships that I've created as a result of the podcast as well, people who I've connected with who I've never met in real life, who actually, we're close now. And I really value that I guess it will always stand out to me the fact that I interviewed Marianne Cantwell, because of the background and me working in London and feeling a bit stuck in life, feeling lost and discovering her book. And really, yeah, she was a really significant part of the reason I changed my life, essentially. So it was a big deal for me to have her on the podcast. That was like a personal moment. I also really loved interviewing Tamu Thomas, because of all the talks that we had around somatics and the body and yeah, but I genuinely liked Nova Reid, there has just been so many and I feel like it would I hate I genuinely hate this question because it means you're putting one person above another person and I don't

Katie Still: 12:22

No, but that's okay. I think in the end ... because to me, I don't know if this makes any sense. But to me, the whole Bravehearts Rising, there is no there is no one standout. Because each time you can't separate them, you can't see one, you know, was particular better. But I think it's nice. You had your personal kind of journey within within it to because I think that speaks to the fact that you also have made friends with people. You had your Marian Cantwell interview. So I think it's it's served its purpose. It's almost like what you were doing was creating your own community as well.

Lisa Pascoe: 12:56

Yeah. And for me, it feels more like, and this is very cheesy, but like just drops the same water bowl, like like it all kind of fit feeds into a collective. And I'm just really grateful that each and every person took the time out to have that conversation with me, because that's important. Like just, there's so much focus on money sometimes, but actually, that investing your time that's an investment, too, and everyone invested time in talking to me and sharing the podcast. And that's really important. Yeah, I'm really valuable to me, because it's something that we can only do all together. So whilst I don't necessarily have like a standout interview, because I value them all, I'd love to know, from your perspective as the person editing and listening, did you have a standout conversation? Or what are some of your takeaways?

Katie Still: 13:55

I would say, I think my tip would be more takeaways. Because it's almost like how you described it's, it's like, there were lots of drops of water falling into a ball. And for me, I had moments and again, it is difficult to recall very specifics. It's more about how they made me feel. What I took away often were things where I felt like I am not I'm not stumbling across these conversations with my everyday life and a lot of people in it. So I think what I felt is that it it drew me into worlds and conversations that felt very important conversations that you think well yeah, we all shouldn't be having these but we just don't we just don't have these conversations. And I think you really encapsulated it well at the very beginning of our conversation just to today, and how it's about making people feel safe and actually shining lights on people's experience in the world of coming from places of difference. And also keep it I felt like I was keeping myself up to date. Does that make sense? Because I, one of my fears as one gets older is that you start to sort of get stuck somewhere and not be party... And when you get into places and you're comfortable in your life, those conversations that stretch you or challenge you or open up worlds that you don't have access to. And I remember you often saying in some of your some of your episodes where you've connected with people from all over the world, and the way that technology has allowed us to have access to people that you would never get access to, that it's helps opens open up your mind. And I overall, I think I'd hope this doesn't sound like a cop out and not choosing anything specific. But similarly, it was more about how everything I came away taking something away and I could a) sometimes relate very much to things that people have brought to you and what how you converse with them. And the questions you asked to elicit certain answers. But also, I felt educated. I felt but not in any way that I stepped into this feeling like you and your interviewee were there to educate me, it was never sort of like that. It just sort of happened by osmosis. And I think that's a very great skill. And it's not confronting in that way. Because you're listening to people talk about things where I'm not necessarily getting that chance very often, it just in everyone's everyday life. I mean, taking the time to have meaningful conversation often takes the shape of people who are close by or you know, when you've got the time and things. So sort of in summary, I would say it was it was a lot to do with just how it made me feel very enriched, I think, overall, and I'm sure many people will have felt the same. So does that make sense to you?

Lisa Pascoe: 16:45

Yeah, that makes total sense. And that was what

Katie Still: 16:45

yeah, I think, you know, I think you've really hit it was all about. It was all about bringing different people together and having those conversations that we just don't get to have in everyday life. Because, well, it's just a bit odd, isn't it to dive straight into that? With folks, as much as I love to, you just don't always have the time. And it's I think it's something very lovely about setting aside, you know, 60 minutes to really dive deep into the things that really matter to you. And it matters to the person that you're speaking to you as well. Because like you say, like we a we don't often have these conversations, be when we do have these conversations that often with people that we're seeing all the time, they're not always the most diverse conversations, they might be quite reflective of what we're thinking ourselves or limited in some way. I know that's not true for everyone. Some people are having lots of diverse conversations all the time. But I think for many of us, we we see a certain set of people, and we're chatting to a certain set of people. And I think particularly if you're introverted, or you just have it at home bird, it's only through kind of meeting people online and having these conversations that you you get to have the different perspectives. And I think, ultimately, it's also about feeling less alone. Yeah, the nail on the head with it, because it is also completely uncensored. What I think we have to, because obviously, I've come from a background of, you know, creating content for a broadcaster where things are run through editorial, you know, editorial staff, and, you know, it's sifted through and things and there's all these different rules around what should be put out there. And I think the advent of podcasting, I mean, it's only been around a short time, and yet, you know, relative to everything else. And actually, it's, it's such an amazing tool, because you're not you're being able to put something out there that nobody is sitting in a room saying, No, you can't say this anymore. And I think the power of that and for you in particular, you're such a you're very you're you're very good orator you you speak so well. And it's your medium, like I know you write as well. But it's it's a chance for you to explore things. And there's nobody like I say you can put it out there and it can reach all corners of the earth through the internet. And and I'm still sort of always in awe of the fact that that can be done now. And it it Yes, it does cost some money to do it. Of course it does. But at the same time, it's really accessible and people can make choices about what they're listening to, but you are making choices of what you want to put out there. 10 years ago, maybe 15 you wouldn't have been doing if there was no access to do this. I think we've got to nod to that too. And I think it's fitted really well for the message that you wanted to get out there for yourself and for others. I don't know if there's a question in there for you. But have you enjoyed the process of the actual podcasting?

Lisa Pascoe: 19:46

I have. I've loved talking because I am a self confessed chatty introvert. And I do like getting straight into the ... I'm much more like let's talk about death than what did you do at Easter kind of thing. Yes, I'm not very good at the old small talk. Editing. Obviously, you did a lot of the editing, but I also did editing.

Katie Still: 20:12

You got very good at it, I must say you, you became very good at it. You picked it up really well.

Lisa Pascoe: 20:16

Yeah, I was very particular though I did, I did edit out a lot of the 'ummms' and 'ahs' and things. And you start to recognise what they look like, for those that are home that listening and in the editing software that I use Audacity, you can obviously you can see the sounds go up and down like a volume thing. And you can recognise when there's like an ummm, and I did sometimes just have to take them out because it was just, it was it's a full of flow. And that is the beauty of podcasting as well. I think you can have these conversations, and then you can, if you say something, right, like, if you say something that you then go, Oh, that wasn't quite right, or I want to do I want to do a but you can have a do over. And I think that's a really lovely thing about podcasts, because it means like, we can have this whole conversation and if at the end we go, that was a bit rubbish, we can go right, let's just do it. Again. It's not live. Although there is a benefit to live, I think as well, because at least it's done. And it's out there focuses the brain somewhat Yes, there is more grace with podcasting. But still, it did take about seven hours an episode. For the for the interview episodes, it was like seven hours and episode, it was a lot of work. And I loved it. But it was a lot of work. And, and that's why I then, like started experimenting and doing the mini podcast episodes, because they were very much I could just sit down. And just record. I think that the challenge with that is I'm very much someone who is better in conversation. So when I sit down with a mic on my own, if I find it a lot more difficult to do, and just be in flow without there being some kind of question. And of course, I could have done kind of like an agony aunt style thing. But I haven't, and I you know, I have a feeling there will be another podcast in the future. But right now. It's, I think a lot of the listeners will be familiar with that concept of having like, under different tabs open at once. And I think it can get really tiring when you've got too many tabs open. And I feel like I'm at a point in my life. I've just turned 40 mum's just got the all clear from being unwell with cancer. And that's been major. And for the last eight months, there's been a lot going on. And also like I have spent the last I would say 10 years seeking answers, like who am I? What am I supposed to be doing in the world? What's my purpose? How can I make a difference? I've spent a lot of time and energy thinking and doing as well and experimenting and podcasting and giving talks and workshops and all these different things. And I feel like I'm tired. Really, honestly, I'm tired. And I need to close some tabs down for a while. I've always talked about pressing pause in my coaching, you know, like, it's important to press pause. And often I thought about that, in terms of a momentary pause, a kind of not just a cup of tea like can be longer than that. Well, yeah, just taking that 10 minutes and breathing is important that I feel like this pause for me feels a bit bigger and a bit more more of an expansive pause. Like I really feel like I want this to be the year of me without being cheesy, but I really feel like there's just so much emphasis again, and it's a kind of capitalist, white, patriarchal world of efficiency and success and like it feels like you know, unless you're squeezing every last ounce of talent out of yourself or productivity like you're wasting your life and I do think this is something I've definitely struggled with because my dad was 47 when he died and I think the closer I get to that age the more it's like well that's I mean it was really young. But I haven't had this added kind of driver within me that I've talked about before you know kind of death as a driver and it's like you want to make the most of life and but there is a balance to be had there between kind of living life to the full and enjoying yourself and exhausting yourself. And also I don't know that it there's this pressure sometimes that I can kind of fall prey to where it's like you know, you want to make sure you've fulfilled your purpose somehow before you die and you just don't know when that's gonna be you might have a year you might have 10 years like so and it's this pressure that just it's almost like insidious and it just like creeps up on me. And it's almost like I need to save myself like it's quite, it's okay. Actually, this is where I find it really helpful to tap into that kind of older, wiser self, if that resonates for listeners, for me, it does resonate. I do, like imagine my older self. And I just know that she's doesn't deal with the BS in the same way. Like, if I'm like, Oh, should I have a YouTube channel, I'll just be like, you know, I'm not going to be on my deathbed going, I really wish I'd had a successful YouTube channel. Like, that is not what my life is about. But 100% get caught up in there. And so for me, I feel like more important things are kind of bringing what I like to call like your heart gems into the world, but in your time, and and in a in a feel good way. So, like this podcast, this is something I really want to do. And, you know, I came up with, I came up with the name, I had someone do the artwork before, and I put it out into the world. And I interviewed quite a lot of people. For me, it's definitely I think, over 35 people. And, yeah, that feels good. And I think I see the struggle that I've had in bringing the podcast to a close, is because I do love it. And I know there are so many more amazing people out there who I want to chat to you. And I want to hear from, and I want to share with the world. And also, I'm tired. And I know for me personally, sometimes a lot to bring it back to those tabs, you just have to close some tabs down for a while you just it's kind of a boundary with yourself. Like just because you can doesn't mean you should. And sometimes even like if you're not doing anything with something, if that tab is open it is it's slowly draining your energy. And it's just working making like I really should be doing an episode or I really should think about who I want to be in by you know, and it's like, I need to put stuff on that. And so bringing it back to that year of me, I really want like, rather than just thinking all the time about the.. not that I don't wanna make a difference by the way, I think you can still have a difference by the people you're interacting with, like, protests, signing petitions, there are lots of ways we can have a difference. But I just mean, in terms of my everyday life, I want to play tennis, and I want to have fun with friends and family and kind of want to frolick for a bit. And I feel like that's so important. It's that concept of, you know, letting the field lay fallow, you know, in farming, and that's, that was one of the metaphors that's always stuck with me that ideally, you can't just keep tilling the land and working the land, because if you keep going and keep going, it just depletes it. And I feel like that's true in life. So it's not like I have to make everything about me free and not care about anyone else. And like spiritually bypass everything and just go to world is amazing. Because it definitely isn't it do you think joy is the life raft of this shit show. That is like humans on planet Earth. Like, that's that's how I feel I'm like we we collectively need to be helping each other experience more joy. And sometimes that does mean policy change because policy has an impact on how people can enjoy life and or not, as the case may be in terms of access to health care and various things. So but I feel like joy is really important because it just boosts us, right? It gives us the energy to keep going on. We're really tired. I feel like joy and hope are really important. So I know that kind of deviates a little bit away from your question.

Katie Still: 28:43

No, I think it answers it perfectly. I think you've just just actually located the title of this last episode, which is, you know, Joy is the life raft in this sort of shitshow. And actually what you're doing, you're saying that the message you're putting out is is very true to what Bravehearts Rising is all about. And if you were to keep the tab open and keep it there running, and it stopped, it's not being joyful to you to do it. It's not it's not serving, what you wanted it to be and who you are within it. So I think it's a lovely sort of, because so often endings people think about being sadness or feeling like a giving up or all those negative things which in actual fact what you've just said there is all about actually it's a such a positive, you've put something out there, it has had an impact. There are 1000s of people that listened to it, and have all gotten something from it. And now you've come to the point where you're going okay, now I just need to sort of replenish the soil here for a while. I'm in the middle of my polytunnel. It's springtime right now, I've just been discussing what I'm going to plant we are to give the soil a chance to regenerate a little bit and it's given its chance to recover. So everything about what you're saying is is very much woven into the fabric of what Bravehearts Rising is. So I think it's it's, you know, over the course of just this time chatting to you, we it's sort of you navigated your way to the point going, Yeah, this is a joyful thing to do now, it's joyful to be able to say this is stopping for now. And who knows what will come next and in what form but it you know, so I think it's a lovely message to put out there. Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense.

Lisa Pascoe: 30:26

For the listeners Katie does in fact have a polytunnel. She didn't randomly just start talking about a polytunnel.

Katie Still: 30:33

Yeah, I actually I do and it's all getting ready. I've got my seed sown with vegetables. So yes, I do. Wher it also houses a lot of lovely common lizards who make little nests in there. So it's lovely.

Lisa Pascoe: 30:45

Yeah, and you talked about the sadness piece, and that there is like just full transparency with the listeners. I think there is a there is a sadness in so much as I just loved this podcast, and there is a part of me that, I don't know, wishes, things could be different. I mean, sometimes I wish, you know, should.. I have questions. Just being human like-should, I have had an Instagram channel dedicated to the podcast to reach more people should I have done this, but I think it's really important to stay true to you and your energy levels. And I think that's something I want to share specifically with the people listening, like, if you're listening, and you've got your own projects that you're doing, or projects that you want to do, you know, find ways of doing them that that work for who you are. Because I absolutely could have done things differently. If I wanted to reach more people. Some things I probably might have been able to do, but maybe I just didn't have no knowledge at the time. And that's okay. But I think, you know, I don't want two Instagram accounts, I barely want one Instagram account, if I'm honest, I just like connecting with people. So I keep it but it has to be like you have to keep the essence of what it is you're doing, you know, for you. And who I am is quite a quiet, chatty person who.. I really still resonate. I think that one of the stick out things for me was when I was talking to Eleanor Snare, and yeah, we were talking about apple pie. But it was just talking about how just being that kind of wise person on the edge of the village, you know, wanting to be that person who people go to when they want to pause and be calm and feel nourished and be able to offload in a way that is safe and without judgement. And I think the real benefit of being like that person on the edge of the village is that you're not in amongst everything, you don't know everyone's business. And that's, I like that. I like being able to go back to my quiet space. I don't want to be in the thick of things. Particularly, like as much as there's, there's part of me that's like, I'll be honest, ego wise, I really wanted this to be an award winning podcast. It did. But yeah, and that's okay. You have to have ambition.

Katie Still: 33:11

I mean, you don't start anything, just saying Oh, it'll just be yours. Whatever, you it's nice to have the ambition. But it's always important to recognise there's always more that can be ... there's always more, and it'll never stop. Like you say reaching out, it would just where does it stop, and you have to kind of make up your mind what you want to what you're able to and what you've got the energy for, and then be okay with it.

Lisa Pascoe: 33:35

And I was already putting in seven hours an episode. So yeah, it was it was enough for me, and I'm really proud of the podcast. I think, Oh, what strucks, strike, what has I think what's struck me, in all of this and thinking about ending the podcasts and things. It's like, if someone writes a book, you know, they finish writing the book, they put it out there but then that book lives on. And I feel it with the podcast in my head, I was thinking what you end the podcast and then that's that and it's like you But people can still access the podcast, you can still find ways of sharing those conversations with people a bit like on Netflix, you have like time limited series, you know, not time, like a limited series. And so that's how I'm gonna just choose to see Bravhearts Rising because it's still 45 episodes of material where people can learn and feel it's a digital library, this library exactly where people can learn and feel inspired and motivated. And yeah, hopefully connected still for years to come. So I will keep the podcast hosted on Spotify and Apple for the foreseeable and then we'll see but it feels really good to be able to, to end it properly. And I think talking to the listeners here, I think, firstly, I'm just really grateful for everyone who has tuned in regularly over the years. And for new listeners, like, this is why I make the podcast is for you at home, so that you feel connected and inspired. And so that you can kind of be a fly on the wall to these meaningful conversations. But these meaningful conversations were not just a fly on the wall, but a participant too. Because even though you're not directly in the room, having these conversations with me and my guest, you, I know that you're having the conversations in your head, because that's what I do. When I listen to podcasts, I want to sit and like it gives so much to respond to that you can then in your own mind, start thinking about it for yourself, and how does that relate to your world? And then you can bring those conversations to friends and family. And I love that about podcasts that they're conversation starters. And you can start podcasts for free. Like it is possible. There are different tiers like on my own Buzzsprout, you can have a free tier, it does mean you have ads on your podcast, which is why I've always paid. But yeah, there are all sorts of different ways now that you can get your voice heard, and out there and the voices of people who you admire. So if you're ever thinking about having your own podcast or doing your own project, I would encourage you to because I think as much as we can think that, oh god, there's just so much noise in the world, which ther absolutely is. There can never be enough, I think, creative, brave voices out there who are sharing and sharing their corner of the world, or their perspective on how things we can do things differently or bring joy into the world. Whatever it happens to be. Like it's important. And when you think about who is dominating on the whole out there. They're not very the voices aren't necessarily the most diverse. And there are people who, God Boris Johnson first got paid like up to like a million last year just for speaking engagements. Like there are people out there being paid to speak who are just perpetuating these systems of oppression, whereas I imagine you as my listener, want to make a difference for the better. And so I we need your voices still when we need you. And, you know, again, make it yours. You can do a six week project like this is what I'm learning and having to remind myself of particularly like with this podcast is I work really well with time limited projects, you know, a beginning and end, a purpose. This is the purpose, this is what we're doing. Let's do it. And probably at the beginning, like if I was to say have a lesson. That would have been a good lesson for me to have had it just said look right and launching it on this day. I'm going to interview this many people and then it's going to be done. And that's quite hard. It's hard to do with yourself because attachment right? We get attached to things we like and then we want to keep hold of them and we want to keep them forever. But all that does is stops other things coming in. So I'm really excited to see what conversations I have in the future. It might not be this year it might not be next year. It might be in five years time but that's okay.