The REtipster Podcast | Land Investing & Real Estate Strategies

From Ireland to America: Ciaran Sheil's 5,000-Mile Land Investing Hustle

• Seth Williams • Episode 231

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231: I never thought someone 5,000 miles away could out-compete local land investors, but Ciaran Sheil does it 40-50 times a year, all without setting foot in the U.S. 🇮🇪➡️🇺🇸

(Show Notes: REtipster.com/231)

In this episode, I talk with Ciaran about:
- The data-driven process that picked his winning markets.
- Replacing blind offers with conversion-focused mail.
- Building a lead-manager team that books his calendar solid.
- Why SALES skills now beat data skills in land flipping.
- Banking challenges, FIRPTA, and the headaches of investing as a foreigner.
- Ciaran's exact KPIs and tech stack he relies on.

If you want land investing, land flipping, and real estate strategies that work anywhere in the world, hit play!

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Music. Hey, everybody. How's it going? Welcome to the REtipster podcast. Today, I'm talking with Kieran Scheel. Kieran is a land investor who lives in Ireland. He runs a fully remote land flipping business. He does about 40 to 50 deals per year, and he's been doing this since 2019. So Kieran started in this business when he was just 19 years old. He built it during college and has since created a system that runs lean and focuses on the right markets and consistently delivers results, all without ever having to step foot on the U.S. for the properties he sells. In this conversation, we're going to talk about how he does this, the systems he built, how he works with local agents and experts, and what it really takes to flip land when you're 5,000 miles away. Kiran, welcome. How's it going? Thank you for having me. It's cool to be on the other side of the camera. I've been listening to this podcast the last five, six years. That's awesome, man. Thanks for listening. Happy to have you as a listener. It sounds weird. You You never really know who is listening to these things and who it's impacting. And all I know is I'm just sitting here talking to a camera by myself, maybe with one other person. You just never know who's listening in. So that's awesome. Why don't we just hear about your background a little bit? How did you first discover the land business? It seems like somewhat of a random thing, especially given that you're across the Atlantic Ocean. Like, did you meet somebody or how did this come to fruition? Yeah, it's kind of an interesting story. I've always been interested in business. Like anything you can buy or sell, I did. I've got websites for people. I did stocks and shares. I imported used phones from England and I sold them locally here. And I did door-to-door sales for a couple of weeks. I've done everything. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and I got interested in real estate stuff. And I started listening to podcasts. And there's a guy called Rod Cleef at Lifetime Cash Flow through real estate investing in a podcast. And I was listening to it and I was like, that's all great. But I'm a broke 17, 18, 19-year-old. I've got no money. And then I got ads online for flipping land. This is back in 2019. I think a lot of people started in the niche that kind of time. After a holiday to New York, I signed up to a course, Land Academy, doing blind offers for properties. And the first deal I got, I got a free property with the course. Like I won a raffle. And then my first deal I bought for $3,000 and sold for $12,000 in Northern California. And I was like, this is unbelievable. And then I just got addicted. What were you going to college for out of curiosity? Business administration and commerce. So I always wanted to have my own business. I don't know how far along you were in college when you were 19 to discover this. I'm assuming you probably just started, right? Did you ever feel like, why don't I just quit this college thing since I've got a land business that's working? So I started it actually the summer before starting college. I started this and I started college. A bunch of things kind of fell into place. Like COVID happened whilst I was in college, which made life a lot more flexible to be able to coordinate things, to be able to do the lectures online, you know, do land calls in the evening. And I also had another day job as well, because I was still putting more and more money into buying more and more properties. So I did think about quitting college, but that was probably like year three. And I was at this point, I should just finish it rather than throw three years down the drain. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, it makes sense to me. I'd probably do the same thing. But I always wonder. Especially when I look back on college and like I try to find like, what was that one class I took that just made all the difference to me? And it's kind of hard to think of what that is. I can think of a couple that were interesting, but like the stuff that really made a difference in my life was more what I learned after college. You know, I don't know if you have a similar experience. I will say like accounting is probably really good to know. Aside from that, you know, self-education is a lot more valuable. There's nothing wrong with getting a degree, but I just think if you're going to college, you're going to get a skill set that sets you up for a job. But if you want more than a job, you need to be a self-starter and seek out the information that you're looking for yourself. Yeah, I think if I could go back, I probably would have majored in accounting at the time. It just felt really hard and I didn't understand it and it didn't seem that important. But like being in a business, you realize like, oh, accounting does matter a lot to like really understand what's going on. And it's more like a tangible skill, whereas general business stuff is just kind of like, eh, you know, whatever, business. I did a work placement at an accountancy company while I was doing my degree. I tried to convince the college that I would work for myself and they didn't like that. And I was made to work for this accounting company. I just hated it. Like, I just hated being told what to do. I just found it terribly boring. I understand different accountancy concepts that are useful now. I just couldn't do it day to day. It'd just be too boring for me. Yeah, I hear you. So being in Ireland, how many times you've been to the U.S.? Or like, how often do you come here? And when you do travel here, where do you go and what do you do? So probably been to the U.S. I don't know, seven times in the last two years, like three or four times a year. I went to a couple of like masterminds and stuff and events. I joined Collective Genius, which has been really helpful. It's like a largely a house flipping group. But I learned a lot about systems and operations and some of the stuff that the house guys are doing that I feel like is lacking in the land flipping niche. A lot of the reason that I go there is to network and find people that are a little bit further on from where you're at and people that have had the same issues with their business that I've had. Because we're not splitting the atom here with what we're doing. If you've got an issue, the chances are someone else has had the same thing. So I've got an awful lot of value out of masterminds. That's a bit of fun doing this over here. It's just good to be around investors and stuff. I think I probably wouldn't do maybe as much travel if I was like local. If I was in Texas or something, it'd be easier to go to some meetups when I'm over here. I try and make an intentional effort to show my face a few times a year over there. Yeah. I think if there has ever been a time where there's a lot land investors can learn from household sailors, it's now. There used to be a time when like it was just such a different business and land was just so much less competitive, but it's kind of changed. I feel like there's just a lot we can learn from them these days. Would you agree? Well, like land is still a lot less competitive than houses, but I think it's always been true that there's been stuff to learn. But I just think kind of when I started, there wasn't really... The kind of business that's around now. Back then, you could just send out marketing, get lots of deals, and you didn't need to be good at anything. You just spend some money on marketing, get some deals. But because those times have been so good, more and more people heard about it and more and more people have done it. Now, there's plenty of deals to go around. You just got to be better today than before. You have to treat it like a business. Yeah, for sure. Well, on that, just the way that the world has changed, Can you walk us through what your business looks like today? What kind of deals did you start with doing? What does your process normally look like? And what does it look like now? Are your deals bigger or is your marketing different or are you working in different states or take us through the evolution of your business? When I started, I was mailing Northern California blind offers and I was just getting deals and whatever deal came in, I was doing and I didn't really have any sort of system or any sort of strategy behind it. It was just there's stuff selling up here. Let's buy some properties. I then wanted to scale the business and I started mailing more and more markets with blind offers. It became more difficult to scale and price different areas, like just different pitfalls in each market, different things to look out for. And just trying to understand each area just became very difficult and high risk. And I'd have mixed luck. I might do a huge deal and then have a deal where I break even or like lose 500 bucks or like make a thousand dollars after a year. the property. I haven't really lost money on any kind of deal, really, like any sort of significant money, but it was just a little bit all over the place. About two years ago, I suppose now, I kind of went back and looked at what I was doing. And I was still using the template that I had from the course. And I was doing blind offers without any sort of strategy. So what I did was I looked at all the deals that I'd done. And I said, oh, well, this area is good. This area is good. This area was good. This area was terrible. This area was terrible. So I ranked to the market. So I've bought man and probably 12 states. So I just picked the top three or four states and I then said, like, let's maximize or deal flow in these areas. So that really helped. If everything remains the same and you spend more money marketing to the better areas, your business just naturally improves. So that's what I did. Since then, I have stopped doing blind offers to neutral. I have now built up my own custom direct mail pieces that are written. Like you can use chat, GBT or get three or four different templates, make it customized to you. Because I used to have people say, well, I've got the same letter before because all the letters read the same. They're all like fake checks or they're all blind offers, the same sort of cover sheet and then blind offer. So just having your piece that sticks out like a sore thumb than all the other people, like that's kind of what you want. I built out a good website, built out a Google My Business profile to just legitimatize what I was doing and try and make me look a little bit different or differentiate myself from all the other competitors. Then on the due diligence side, I looked at like, what do I learn in each of these areas? So when you do deals, you learn a lot more than just analyzing a market. Like when you actually do a deal, you go, do I used to do a perk test here? What are the requirements to build? What's the municipality like for development? What are the attorneys like? Are title companies? Once I found some good areas to work, I want to do as many deals as I can in those areas. I save a significant amount of time and things become a lot easier. And what I ended up kind of doing was JV-ing with realtors. Like realtors would basically sell or dispo the properties for us. And my job was to acquire the properties. There's realtors that have sold 20, 30 properties for me, where they're making a significant amount of commission selling properties for me. And they'll run out to the property. They'll look at the property for me. The title company knows me. They've got all my information on file. It just makes everything so much more efficient and like lower risk. And I can pay more than anybody else in that market because I know that area really, really well. When you say JVing with a realtor, you mean like you just pay them a higher commission or do they like own part of the property or something? Or when I say JV, I just mean it's more than just one transaction. It's like a long-term like enduring relationship that I want to work with that realtor. If we do one successful sale, it's okay. But I would like to do 10 or 20 sales with that same realtor. Then I get a better degree of confidence in their numbers, in their underwriting. And I develop friendships with realtors and it just makes everything easier. Yeah. Do you wait until you do one successful deal and then you jump in with both feet with them? Or do you tell them right off the bat, like, Hey, if this goes well, I'm going to bring a lot more deals your way. Like, how do you motivate these people to be more willing to help? Or is it just like, they're either motivated or they're not. You can't change that about them. So picking realtors, I want to find somebody that sells like, there's usually one realtor that sells like half the volume in an area. So I want to work with like a good realtor that has got good results. I suppose it just depends on how the conversation goes. Sometimes you'll have a better call and you'll say, well, there's more of this, where this came from, and it works out well. Sometimes, though, in some of these more competitive areas, you just want to get the first deal closed, and then you can open the door in the future. Once they've got paid by you, their guard is a lot lower. You call some of these whitetail guys, and they say, I get calls from investors every week who want me to value their property for free and that they never work with us so a lot of realtors just feel like investors just take advantage of them you know waste their time and we just don't want to do business like that what you're saying makes total sense like doesn't surprise me at all to hear that but it's actually just good to hear that perspective in terms of why some people would not return your calls or just blow you off that kind of thing but they probably do get taken advantage of a lot so there's a way to tell them like hey i'm serious like i'm going to take care of you and here's proof is there any way to prove that up front or do you just have to go full circle with a deal and then they know the way you kind of communicate on the phone and the way that you carry yourself i think the way i can kind of talk to people because i've kind of got the experience i can kind of have this little bit of confidence on the phone when i'm explaining to them that like look this is the way we do it if you can say to people like this is the process that we have this is the way we do things they kind of go oh you're a professional a little bit more than like hey can you value this property for me i feel like you can kind of convey that a little bit over the phone, but it's hard. It's like building trust, like a lot of people with this in a remote business model. I think that barrier to trust is like a huge thing with sellers, with title companies, with attorneys, with realtors, with cleanup. I have a guy trying to clean up some property that I have. I bought some land. I want to clear up some trash off it. Because I've been burnt before by people. And I said, look, I get it. I'll send you a deposit. Once you receive the deposit, will you start working? I said, yeah, that's fine. There's this hurdle to overcome. Yeah. Just to kind of understand the context of your business. So like, what's the typical deal size? Are there specific states that you're working in? What does a normal deal look like for you? Is it just a straight flip or are you subdividing or doing something to it? Tell us about that. I've got a few different angles to the deals that I do. I generally take title to everything. I've done a couple of wholesales, but I generally take titles to properties. A lot of the time I buy and flip. My average deal size last year, I think it was $23,000, $24,000. They go this year to increase that a little bit. I generally double my money on a lot of properties that we buy. I buy more rural land, four acres to 150 acres. And I do some stuff in the South and I do some stuff in some attorney states and some stuff in some nondisclosure states. A lot of my decision making now is based on I tried a bunch of areas and then I found some good people that I like to work with. Yeah. When working in those attorney states or nondisclosure states, anything like that, have you noticed any difference in terms of like, oh, this is actually a lot easier here. This is less competitive here. Or is there not really any difference at all? I think with states that have banned wholesaling, there's some good opportunities like Oklahoma, South Carolina, areas where people can't wholesale. There's like less competition. It's sometimes harder to get transactions closed where there's attorney states. So I think if you've got a good attorney, it can really help. And if it's hard to close transactions, it's easier to find deals generally is what I've seen. I also do some like distress stuff as well. I'll buy properties that are landlocked or I've got various title issues because I know the attorneys in these areas that I work and they can help advise me or they help me solve out issues. Like I can call in favors on properties where the attorney that I work with might not do something for somebody else, but is willing to do a probate for me or willing to help advise me on an access situation because they've worked with me before. So I really try and leverage the relationships. I can just do like less work and I generally see a better outcome. Definitely. So it sounds like you've got certain markets that you know really well and you go back to again and again. I'm assuming the markets that you're in today are different than the ones that you started in. Makes you wonder, how do you know when it's time to stop working in one market or start working in a new one? For us, I'm looking at my marketing report and I'm seeing like, what's my return on ad spend per area? Not really as much response rate on the piece more so the return on ad spend like what's the average deal size what's the cash conversion cycle like from money into money out how long is it taking and then i'm ranking it and i'm saying well like if i've only got so much money to spend on marketing am i getting as many deals as i can in my best market and i like a bit of diversification i do i like to have money across maybe 10 15 20 properties and then to have money two, three properties. Like I want to have a little bit of diversification that kind of mitigates my risk. I guess it's like how much money you're making per deal and how long is it taking is kind of what it comes down to. If my cash conversion cycle is shorter and I make a little bit less money per deal, but I can flip my money faster, it might make sense for me to go to an area that I can flip money faster. So it's not just deal size. If your deal size is 50% bigger, but it takes three times as long, then that's not a good idea. It depends on the case-by-case situation, but I'm trying to use the data that I have to make the best decisions that I have with it. Yeah, that's a big deal. I know that's one thing we've been working on a lot in Stride CRM that myself and Mike Balcom have been building, which I know you know Mike as well. Those metrics and KPIs, like it's something that a lot of land investors just don't keep track of at all. They just have no idea what's going on. And there's so many different ones to keep track of as well. But just having a good handle on that. I mean, that's really the only way you can know if something is broken or not. If you're looking at that stuff. Otherwise, you're just kind of going on your gut. How do you keep track of all that stuff? Do you have a certain system in place or how do you reliably make sure you're looking at sound data that helps you make those decisions? Yeah. Yeah, so this was like a huge gap that I realized when I joined Collective Genius and started networking with some of the house guys. What we've done is we've added custom fields to our CRM. That's like the marketing channel, when the lead came in, whether the lead's qualified or not. Every lead that's open on the system needs to have an extra find action. If it's going to be open, what's the next thing that's going to happen? Really trying to think about how a lead gets processed through the system. And then what can we do then with the data? So I've got like a stop-out report and with that stop-out report, I can then work out like, what are the KPIs that we need to have per team member? Like we've got it down now to there's a KPI dashboard per team member. So I can see, well, you know, I've got four people working for me, but if one person's pulling the weight on the team, I can see that with data comes better decisions. Some of the stuff that we've done as well with our marketing is we can like retarget leads that are qualified in our CRM that I might have had an appointment with that maybe we didn't get a deal on, I'll send them direct mail pieces, like custom direct mail followable pieces. But I can only do that if I'm tracking that. And I use Looker Studio to map out all the data. You're doing this business on hard mode if you're not using the data to help make better decisions. You say Looker Studio? Looker Studio. It's a Google data kind of visualization tool. And you can kind of build your own custom dashboard. That's free. So it's awesome. I love free stuff. I got to check that out. I've never messed with that, but that sounds seriously useful. It's like, it's one thing to have the data, but if you can't make sense of it and really understand what you're looking at, it's like, what's the point of any of it? You know? So if anything makes that easier, that's pretty nice. Yeah. Like less is more. You don't want to make it like really, really difficult to like track a bunch of things. I would start off with tracking a few things that are going to like help move the dial. Like what marketing channel does the lead come in from? having every lead that has a next to find actions be really helpful. And then just tracking kind of like less is more. Don't track a number that you're not willing to take action on. Like my job as the leader of the business is, what decisions can we do that will help move the numbers? How do we impact the numbers in a positive direction? Yeah, absolutely. You kind of mentioned earlier some of the changes you've had to make, whether it's changing markets or changing what you're saying in your mail template or changing the type of mail you're sending altogether from blind offers to neutral letters. that kind of thing. When you look back at all the changes you've had to make and maybe the changes you still need to make, I don't know, things never really stopped changing. Has anything struck you as like a really hard thing to change? Or like, how do you even decide which things are worth changing in the first place? Because I know sometimes when I do this stuff. I'm just like trying a bunch of stuff. I don't really know what's going to make a difference. I'm just changing everything to see if maybe a different recipe gets a different result. But given that you track data so well in your metrics, is there something that clearly says, okay, Q-Ron, this is a problem. This has got to change. And this is specifically what you should change it to. Is it that clear? Or what does that process look like for you? I would be very careful about changing too much stuff because if you change three or four things, I can't then compare the results over time. So if you want to be consistent with your results, you got to be consistent with your inputs. Everything must remain the same for you to be able to actually work out whether that change is actually worthwhile. I've seen people pivot massively in the business, and that's a really bad thing to do. Like my direct mail, like every single week for like the last two and a half years, I think we might have missed maybe two weeks. We mail every single week. And, you know, I might increase the direct mail maybe 10% or 15%, but I'm not changing and stopping and starting and stopping and starting. It takes like a quarter or maybe even six months to determine whether a change is worth it. Because if you think about the deals that you're doing, it depends on how big your business is. But like every year, I see like a big deal that comes in on direct mail, you see the whole selection of results. And it takes a while for that data to come in. So making massive pivots is just reckless, a recipe for disaster. And on that point, you said it takes maybe a quarter or six months to be able to see the differences of whatever change you made. So part of what's baked into that, though, is the assumption of how much mail you're sending, right? So how much mail are you sending per month? I'm sending 3,000 pieces a week. I think that's about 15,000 a month. We also do texting as well. And the benefit of doing texting or cold calling is even though our mail is quite consistent. So I suppose my mail is consistent because I'm mailing the same amount each week. And then I also mail three markets at a time. So I can get a blended response rate of two or three different areas. Because some areas might have a lower response rate. So I'll match that with a higher response area from our data so that we can try and normalize out the response rate. And then we add in texting as well. so we can do texting to help bump the numbers. And by having a second marketing channel, it makes things even more consistent as well. So just a few little tricks here and there can make it easy. Like I think every week of my payroll cost to run the business, and I'm like, we need to make sure that we're maximizing our capacity, that we don't have too many leads coming in. It's like just about, like just about for us is about 70 leads a week is what my team can handle. Two lead managers, a median acquisitions, and I've got a texter and a data guy and we can do about 70 leads a week and we track that every week. Yeah. So you got mail. Is that like your primary marketing channel and texting is kind of like your backup or is texting the primary one and mail is the backup? Yeah, so mail has always been the backbone of the business, but texting has done really well for us. About half of our deals right now are from texting. Is the ROAS better for one or the other? ROAS for texting is way better. You have like a 15 to 20x ROAS on texting. It depends on how you track it, whether you're tracking like equity captured or deals sold. And then direct mail is about a 7 or 8x return. Anybody who doesn't know ROAS, ROAS, return on ad spend, it's just a way to measure for every dollar you're putting into your marketing, how many dollars you're making back from that. So if texting is clearly dominating, why not just totally move to texting? So the thing about texting is it takes about twice as many leads to close a deal than it does from direct mail. So per hour, we make more of a direct mail. Because my close rate on those leads are higher. But texting, we see a better return on ad spend, but it's more work. It's more labor intensive. The dollars you have to spend to pay for that labor, is that part of what goes into that ad spend or ROAS calculation? I'm just recalling from when we looked at it, but I think I included the cost of a lead manager. Yeah. I mean, if that cost is baked in, why not just go all in on that? If the ROAS is, that's kind of the bottom line of like, this is what's performing better. Because we got one closer right now. The closer on the team is me. I can't do 100 appointments a week. I can only do so many. So it's less about the return on outspend. It's more about how many appointments can I go on and what's the best utilization of my time. Plus, I like to stabilize out things. You know, there was issues with launch control last year. And it's good to hedge with two marketing channels. Yeah, yeah. I'm talking to you like the biggest hypocrite in the world. Because if anybody has a problem removing themselves from the business, it's myself. But have you ever thought of finding a closer to replace yourself? Or what would it take to remove yourself from that part of the business? I've been making adjustments to the business over the last like two years. And I've been slowly working on each aspect of the business, like optimizing steps in the marketing funnel, then building out like a lead management process and a lead tracking CRM sort of process. Right now I'm doing sales coaching for acquisitions. I don't think I can teach somebody acquisitions quite yet. I've got one guy on my team that I think will be able to get to close the deals. But it's such a critical job in the business that you really want to make sure that you're doing it at a really high level. Because it's catastrophic if it doesn't work. Like if you're not seeing results, it can really cost you. So when you say closer, are you talking about like the entire process of handling the conversation and negotiation with the seller to getting it closed? Or do you just mean the act of coordinating the signing of documents? It depends on what way you design the business. You can design the business with a one call close where you go from an initial lead in to contract signed with one point of contact. So you can have a team of just closers that just work the leads from start to finish. If you're doing texting or cold calling or some of these maybe cheaper marketing channels, it takes more work to convert a texting lead or a cold call lead. It's cheaper, but it takes more work to convert them. We use lead managers. And what lead managers do is they manage the pipeline of opportunities and then basically set my calendar up. So I use like Calendly or on Strides, you can set up a booking event. And they book my calendar with appointments all day. So my job is to just go on appointments and present offers to people that want to sell. We've gotten there to the point in which all the properties are all valued ahead of the call. There's an offer range suggested, anything important with the due diligence. So I can just go on the call and I can just present the offer and then close the deal. And that's a really high value task. I'm not sure if it's the most important task in the business or the most important high value role, but it's certainly a role that I probably clutching onto for a bit longer until I'm 100% confident that we can have the team. Well, speaking of your team, what does your current team look like? How many people are on your team? What parts of the world are they in? What parts of the business are they running? And other than being this closer negotiator person, what other roles do you still have in the business? I've got my data manager in the Philippines. His job is to set up a marketing program. So we've got each week of marketing all planned out for the year. And he manages all the lists and all the data and coordinates with RocketPrint and does all that stuff. I've got an operations manager and her job is to manage the lead managers, help with the due diligence on the properties, prepare purchase and sale agreements. I got two lead managers, one in the Philippines, one in Belize that just started last week. And I've got a texter in Pakistan. And I got another girl that's doing lead management that We're going to move into cold calling. I want to start cold calling ourselves next week. So I think that's six on the team. And my job, I run the morning huddle. I run the stoplight meeting each week. I do performance reviews of everybody on the team. I'm really big about treating this business like a business. I try and do what I should be doing as a manager running the business. I also do a lot of the recruitment on the team as well. Gotcha. So you mentioned in a call that we were both on a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was actually really astute. And you just kind of nailed it. You're talking about how this used to be very much a data business. Like that was kind of it. If you could figure out, you know, where to get lists and how to make sense of them and how to say the right things in your letters and all this stuff, it's kind of just the numbers again at the end of the day. And you've kind of had this revelation that it's still that, but it's much more of a sales business now. Like that ability to follow up quickly and say the right things and kind of think on your feet and that kind of thing. That's becoming much more important. A hundred percent. When I started this business, I was all interested in the data stuff. And that's naturally like the way that I'm wired. I'm more of a data kind of process-orientated person. It was a big realization when I met other people that are doing houses and more than me. I had a chat with Ajay at Collective Genius a couple of years ago. And he was saying to me, you need to build out a sales process. So that's what I did. I built out a sales process. It's almost like running a business. The value is made by your ability to sell. It's like operations almost come secondary. it's like with the business everybody's getting letters all the time like it's easy to order direct mail it's easy to send direct mail what's hard is calling all these people answering all these calls dealing with angry sellers and trying to convert them into closing that's the hard bit that's a bit that's more difficult to scale more difficult to manage where you get paid more if you can convert some of these sellers into deals that's really where you make your money it's almost like more people are introverted than extroverted. Part of the issue I had with my team a couple of years ago was I hired a bunch of people that were introverts like myself, that didn't want to call people, that didn't want to work through the rejection, didn't want to call people. Your ability to connect and build trust with these people, like a lot of these people that are selling to us, they're elderly people. They're people that maybe have been scammed before. Like, how do I know that you're legit? Like, they're getting letters every single week from other folks doing the same thing. Why should I work with you? And like five years ago, there was just no competition. So you could just send out marketing. And also, your marketing spend doesn't linearly scale. The reason I haven't grown my marketing budget that much, I've grown my marketing budget maybe 15-20% the last year and a half, is because we can't work more opportunities. If I put in more leads into the funnel, we actually might have a reduction in the amount of deals we do. Why is that? Because we can't actually effectively show up and work the leads to the extent that you should be working the leads. Yeah. I love hearing this from you because you remind me of me and a lot of other people I know, like you said, kind of the introverted side where you don't necessarily wake up in the morning. Oh, I can't wait to go and sell. I want to be a salesman. But you still clearly see the importance of it. So you're not just denying the importance behind it. You're actually seeing it and you're willing to do the work to figure it out. You put that really well in terms of like the hard work is the showing up, the work the leads, the talking to angry sellers on that whole thing of getting on the phone and talking to people. What do we mean when we say being good at sales? Like what is sales exactly? Is that just being likable or is it saying things so that people know you're legitimate? I don't know if you have any examples in your mind of like specific things you said or did that made all the difference in getting a deal to close when otherwise would not have closed. Like, is there some magic phrase that you say or help me understand like exactly what works. I wish it was a magic button, but there isn't. The biggest thing is connecting with the people on a deep level. Like I've had deals where the last minute people have said, where are we going to close? And I didn't realize we're in such a hurry. Well, I need this money to pay my rent or I need this to do this. When people call, they're naturally, they've got their guard up. They're not opening up to you. You have to ask great questions. You've got to really have a level of professionalism. When I say sales, don't hear me say, I try and make an offer to everybody that calls. We don't want to be sleazy salespeople. We want to say, hey, we're a solution for you if you're the right person that would qualify or make sense to do business with. If you need a quick sale or you don't want to take all the effort of listing it, we just tell people, hey, have you thought about your options? Have you thought about listing the property? Well, no, I don't want to pay a realtor. I want the sale to happen quickly. Like it's asking better questions so you can actually like truly understand the situation rather than just, hey, I can offer you 15,000 or having a VA give an offer rather than actually listening to them and like hearing them. Like my appointments are like 30 minutes long with people. We spend a lot of money and time to generate leads, and you have to have a good process to handle them. So we ask open-ended questions. We try and ask them all the questions about the property on the initial call. Then my call is the offer call. And I try and ask them, hey, is there any other decision makers? Is it just yourself that owns the property? Or why haven't you sold this property already? Have you thought about selling it before? So they don't feel like we're trying to push them into a deal like i've got nothing to sell i'm offering to buy your property i'm not trying to sell you anything so i think a little bit of like not trying to sell them it's up to them but you gotta do a good job representing who you are how you can help them and if you don't understand the issues that they have or why would be a good option then you can't really do a good job making a solution that would help them because you don't really understand what they're going through. Yeah. At the end of the day, every human wants to be known and understood. They want to know that you get them. And it's kind of funny. A lot of times I'll have these long conversations with people, sometimes on a podcast interview, sometimes just in normal life, maybe like on a long car ride somewhere. And I'll talk with them for like a couple hours. And when we get to where we're going and we get out of the car, it's like, man, that was like the most fascinating, best conversation I've had in the longest time. And the reason they're saying that is because we were just talking about them the whole time. You know, I was just interested in what they had to say. I wanted to actually get it and get to the bottom of it. I would say things that show that I understood it. And people love that. People love just knowing that you get it. And it's hard to do that if you're in a hurry. And if you just look at things transactionally, it's like, okay, how can I get off this call as fast as possible and make money from it. Like you almost have to distance yourself from that mode of thinking and try to be a friend in a way. Would you agree? Yeah, like sellers can pick up your tone. If you go into something trying to like hurry through the call or you've got that salesperson kind of commission breath and you're trying to just make a deal, people don't like that. Like a huge gap for me though was like not having a sales process. And I've worked with a sales coach, Jenny Hudspeth with Aurea Sales Tools. And it has been so, so helpful in having a process for how do you overcome objections? How do you handle these conversations? How should the call go? How would you have handled it? I think it's one of those things once it's shown to you, it makes a lot more sense. But it's something that like naturally, I love the KPIs, love the dashboards. I love the data side of the business. And like, I think out of the people that I know, I'm a good operator. I'm good at like the operation side and making good financial decisions. But I think you need coaching on areas that you're weak with. And like i think now i'm above average with my ability to close these people and we've seen just such great results from doing it and sales is one of those things that if you're an entrepreneur you have to be able to sell there's no way around it you have to be able to sell and if you can convey yourself with confidence and you know where you're going it's just following the process it's like all the other stuff it's just following the process but you kind of need a process and a rubric and a playbook to go from to be able to know how to do it rather than just banging your head against the wall. I've started to use like money to just get the outcome that I'm looking for because time is money. You know, it's funny because I hear you say that and I agree with what you're saying. Like if you want to be an entrepreneur, you have to be able to sell. It feels intimidating, those words like, do I know how to sell? I don't know. Is it like a skill that I have? Like, I don't know if I know how to do that. When I walk back, it's like, well, do I I know how to be a nice person and befriend a person and show interest in them and figure out what they want and figure out if I can do something that will actually legitimately meet their need, not just my need. So if I can say yes to all those things, then I probably can sell. Do you think it's really as simple as that? Or am I on the right track? I think you're right. Sales is not this kind of like pushing people into making decisions, but it is more about like communicating and like understanding the situation. And like, I'm getting people that say to me now, such a nice time speaking with you today. I really enjoyed this conversation. And I've had some people where they've signed agreements with me and they go, I actually didn't think I was going to sell the property, but we just spoke about it. You planted the idea in my head. And I'm just like, you're right. It's a good decision for me where I'm at with my life. Even if you're good at sales, think about this. If you can convert 20% more of your leads... And your return on ad spends like five or six X, now you've increased it to seven, or you've increased it from 10 to 12 or from five to six. Having a process has been so helpful and like I can hire people and train them into that process. So I do sales training with my team twice a week. We do game tape where we listen to the calls. Hey, what do you think of that call? There's also new things you can do to improve the call, like no such thing as a perfect call, but we do kind of call breakdowns. What questions would you have asked your tone your pacing you kind of talked a bit over this hour you should have like let them kind of talk a little bit more you cut them off at this point just being consistent all the time on like training the team on this stuff has just been so helpful so like sales communication and like convincing people to sell or like influencing other people to make decisions we want to try and make it easy for them to decide or highlight that It's a good decision to work with us or help them determine that we're a good option for them. But then like leadership, leaving a team, you're not influencing others on your team. So that's the same sort of thing. It's just a little bit in a different context. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. So you've got a team and I take it one or two of your team members handles a portion of this sales process, but you sort of handle the closing portion of it. So what portion do they handle? And how hard is it to find the right people who are not just willing, but happy to handle that kind of job where they're good at it and they're not afraid to get on the phone? I've got lead managers on my team. And that's part of the funnel that you're asking about. So lead managers answer the inbound calls from the direct mail pieces. So on our direct mail pieces, we've got numbers, phone numbers, people ring. We live answer the phone. So we were previously using PatLive and we realized it takes on average five calls to get somebody back on the phone if you miss a call. So it's easier to just live answer. It improves results and it's less work to just live answer than it is to have an answering service. So that's what we've done. The lead manager takes the initial call, someone qualifies as a seller. So it tries to understand, is there an established motivation to sell? Is there a reason why they want to sell? Or what's going on? Sometimes people go, yeah, sure, I'll sell my property for the right price. Well, when you say the right price, what do you mean? What do you mean the right price? Well, I actually don't want to sell, but I will sell if you give me a great deal of money for it. Okay, so you wouldn't be interested in working with an investor that buys for less American value, would you? No. Okay, well, let's not set up a call. If the person goes, yeah, look, I've owned the property for 20 years. I plan to build up here, but I moved to Florida. I don't want to build up here anymore. I'm sick of paying the taxes. Okay, well, how does 2 p.m. on Tuesday with Kieran work for an appointment? He'll call you. He's our land buyer. He actually runs the company, but he's available on appointment. So I'll just schedule you on his calendar. Would that work? My team will then analyze that property ahead of my appointment. I'll go on the appointment. I'll say, look, I'm the land buyer. And I'll read the notes and say, hey, you're chatting with Ralph or you're chatting with Hannah or you're chatting with whoever. What has you looking to sell the property? And you ask open-air questions, trying to understand them. How much would you be looking to get out of the property? The lead manager manages from the call in to booking the appointment. And then if the appointment no-shows, they don't answer my call, their job is to put them back on the calendar. They'll do the follow-up. If I say, sounds like now is not the right time. You've got going on right now. Let's do a follow-up in a month's time. My lead manager will do the follow-up in a month's time for me. So I'm just trying to spend my time doing the highest value job, which is closing the people that want to move forward. Gotcha. This process of training your team to handle their portion of the sales process, how much work is it to do that? Like, does that training ever really end? Is there ever a point where it's like, OK, they're there. They don't need any more of these calls where we review their conversation. Or is it just always something you constantly have to work on? I think this is a trick question. I think you probably know the answer to this question. It's a continual effort. It's like the practice and role play and continually work on it day in, day out. We do have like playbooks. Like, this is how we do a call. This is what the notes should look like. This is how we go about a call. These are the questions that we ask. Here are some examples of some really good calls. We score the calls out of 80 as well. So you can upload the transcript into chat, GBT, and have a grading rubric for each call. How was their tonality? Did they ask questions? Did they do any sales techniques like language mirroring, like asking assumptive questions, like going negative, asking questions and deploying sales techniques? I do training twice a week and we try and document that training and we try and put it up onto Notion or have like a learning management system like an LMS, like the Zoho Learn that you can set up employee kind of onboarding and videos and stuff so that there's a resource for them to start off with when they start at the company. And we've got like an onboarding plan. This is what's expected from you from 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. This is where we expect you to be. You have to be really specific as to what you expect. Like how can somebody do a good job if you don't know what a good job looks like? And then even when it comes to hiring, like what kind of person are you looking for? Like I hired a bunch of introverts and I asked them to make cold calls. That's a recipe for burnout. It's a recipe for unhappy people. You want someone that is energized by talking to people and loves talking to people. So we're using disk assessments and trying to do some attitude tests, trying to really understand the people that I'm hiring. And I'm really picky. I'm really difficult to work for. I have really high standards. And I think my team is really good from having all that. And I pay them well. And I've set up core values for the business. This is the way we do things. This is the way we behave. This is who we are. really treating the business like a business with the respect that it deserves. It's the foundations of the business that I think is often overlooked. Like, oh, I want to do this new marketing channel. I want to do ringless voicemails. I want to do cold calling. I want to do PPC. I want to do this. I want to do that. But you have to have a solid foundation. Like you have to learn how to recruit people, how to run a marketing system, how to do quarterly reviews of people on your team. How do you do dashboards? Like you have to do the kind of boring that you need to do as a business owner. Like cash flow forecasts. I'm doing cash flow forecasts right now and predicting where my cash is going to be for the next kind of 90 days. So I know where I sit with the business. All this stuff is the boring stuff that no one talks about. Some of success in this whole process to know if you're actually getting deals and getting them closed. Some of this has to do with the customer journey or in this case, maybe the seller journey. What are they experiencing? Like every single interaction they have with you, your company, what does that look like? say they get this piece of mail and the first piece of the customer journey is like, what does this piece of mail look like? What does it like to open it? What is it saying to them? Is it telling them to call or email or go to some website? When they call or do what the letter tells them to do, what do they experience then? Do they listen to a voicemail or in your case, they get a live person on the phone. This has happened like 24 seven. There's always somebody there or just certain hours of the day. And then what does that first conversation look like? And how long do they talk to them before they move to you. Is there any way in your customer journey that you've intentionally changed this over the years or anything that you think you still need to change to make that feel more seamless and basically just giving people a good experience? Like really going to masterminds and talking to people that are ahead of you. I try not reinvent the wheel. If someone's got like a good system that's achieving the results that I'm after. I want to just rip it and copy it. Not like completely copy their marketing copy, but I want to implement what they're doing, that they're seeing results from. I try not reinvent the wheel. I try and make good decisions, but like, I don't want to do something that's so out there. It's so different that I don't know if it's going to work. I want my business to be consistent and predictable and achieve consistent results over time. So that's one thing. Some of the stuff that you can do, like building out online testimonials, that's a good thing. Getting video testimonials, that's a good thing. Just some common sense stuff. We also have a post appointment survey call. So like I'll do an acquisition appointment and my lead manager will call back and go, how did I call Tarango? On a scale of one to 10, how would you rate the offer? You know, how do you feel about everything now? Now that this whole call is over, because there are guards now down, how could we have done better? What are you going to do now? So really trying to understand them. You could call some of the people that you've bought property from. Why did you choose to work with us? What part of our process did you like? And then with some of the marketing, is it easy to read? Does it read well? Previous direct mail pieces I had were just big walls of text that I'd read. And I see myself glossing over and I'm like, this doesn't read well. Like, let's have bullet points and have it easy to read. There are some common sense things. Like you ask the direct mail company, hey, can you give me your highest converting direct mail pieces and use those pieces to try and understand what's working for people and then do what's working. I don't think there's any kind of silver bullet, but it is just trying to keep in touch with what's happening in your business, where the industry is going. Like that's a huge thing about doing the networking things to try and keep ahead of what everyone is doing and trying to understand what's happening. Like there's AI stuff now. So like we're looking at setting up with open phone, you can connect it in with Zapier and then ChatGPT and do AI call scoring as a thing that I'm looking at doing now. So some of the stuff is just common sense things, but I don't think there's any silver bullet, but just... Ask people, hey, like, why'd you work with us? Trying to understand them. And then there are some like easy wins that you can do, like the reviews and having a good website and having photos of yourself and being a real person. What kind of offers are you making? See if you've got a property that's worth a hundred grand, like what do you offer for that? What are you listing and selling it for? Because sometimes, I mean, all the time really, the amount of your offer also has a lot to do with whether or not that thing gets accepted and how much money you end up making. So what does your typical deal look like? So we email the realtors that we work with and the realtors value every lead that comes into our system in the areas that we have realtors that we work with. So we can have a really high degree of accuracy and precision as to what the value of that property is. And knowing the realtors that we work with, sometimes I'll reduce the offer a little bit because I'll know that that realtor will maybe overvalue a property like 10% or whatever. I'll look at my data again and go, how much does it cost to close on a property in this state? You know it's an attorney states the closing costs are going to be higher or when you do probate or whatever i built out a custom gpt that basically we've got all the information as to what closing costs are what the transfer taxes are what the selling costs are in each area and i can just upload the realtor's email into chat gpt and then it'll tell me what the offer ranges are for those properties so we're offering like 40 to 55 but if i invest a certain amount of money i've got a minimum cash return as well like if i invest 40 000 i want to get at least 25 000 profit irrespective of the percentage and i don't want to do a deal that's less than 15 000 profit and then if we need to do probate or can you clean up the property it's got an estimate for what the probate costs are per region the custom gpt i've programmed with as much stuff as possible so that my team can like put in an offer range without my involvement yeah do you ever have it with custom gpts where like it suddenly just stops doing what you told it to do and just kind of goes off the rails. I had that recently with one. I read an article last week about AI hallucination. So apparently like AI can kind of go a little bit rogue. I have had that before. Like I've got a manual prompt as well that has all the stuff in the custom GPT and like a big long word file. When I'm doing stuff in the business and I'm making changes and I'm improving stuff, I try and document as much stuff as I can. Running a business is not easy. It's just not if you want an easy life, you know, get a job. But I certainly want to try and, make my work somewhat leveraged. So I try and use the IT systems to have backups of everything and have manual ways of doing stuff. But we try and implement AI when we can into our processes. Yeah. Early in this conversation, we were talking about, you know, you're in Ireland, working in this business in the US from across the ocean. Yeah. Have there been any like big hurdles or challenges either when you got started or even now that are difficult about that, the proximity of how far away you are, or is it really make no difference at all? Like, is there ever a time when you think to yourself, man, if only I was in the U.S., then this would be easier? Or does that not really happen? All the time. Like, where do I start? Like, what are some of the big challenges? Initially, it was like trying to get a bank account for the business. I rang so many banks. And because of this rule, I think it's called Patriot Act, it makes it really difficult to open a bank account if you're a non-resident to the U.S. So I rang, I don't know, 30, 40, 50 banks or something, and I couldn't find anybody. I found a bank in like Puerto Rico and they got their banking license and got shut down and I tried Mercury and they shut me down. I tried like Relay Fire, tried a bunch of banks and I found a couple of banks that would like let me in, like challenger type banks that could do verification online with Zoom. I'm not doing anything wrong, but it's just the banks are not familiar with the rules. And it's hard to verify my information when I'm overseas compared to maybe if you're in the U.S. And the only people that are overseas running U.S. businesses, maybe 1% or half a percent. So it's like the banks just go, oh, we just want U.S. People or U.S. residents. It's just easier. I got a tax refund in my name. So I got a check from the IRS. I couldn't deposit the check over here. Because the bank, we're saying, well, this is from the Treasury, so there's no clearing bank in the U.S., so we can't actually cash the cheque here. If it's a cheque from a business, you could. We'd have a clearing bank on the other side. But when it's the U.S. government, we actually can't deposit that cheque. So I went to like three different banks and they couldn't do it for me. This is a bank in Ireland that is saying this? Yeah, it's a bank in Ireland. And I said, like, I've got a U.S. cheque. Can you deposit it and give me euros for it? And they said, we can't do that. What bank did you end up landing on to handle your U.S. bank account stuff? I got like a corporate bank account now with a big bank, but it's like a relationship that you need to like establish. And I got an introduction and stuff. It's not something that you can just like walk off the high street to get a bank. If you are a U.S. citizen and you live abroad, you'll have a much easier time getting a bank account. But because I'm not a U.S. Citizen or I don't have a U.S. visa, it's a lot, lot harder. And then for like taxes when you sell a property they take 15 of the sales price they have a withholding called FERTA foreign interest from their property tax act withholding so the title company will withhold that money and send it to the government for you and then you can claim a refund and you might get the refund a year later like that's what this refund was about from withholdings two and a half years ago man i mean what would it take for you to just move to the U.S. and become a U.S. citizen? Is it that big of a problem or can you figure out how to deal with it? You can definitely get a business visa and you can get set up that way. But it's not something that is like super straightforward to do. You have to hire an immigration attorney. You have to have a business that's beyond marginal, that you can support yourself, that you can support hiring other Americans. I've got some tax advice now that I've got a corporation set up for my situation. I've got a corporation set up, not a CPA or lawyer or whatever, your own advice. But I just spend some money getting advice to get it set up right so that things flow better. When I sell a property as well, I can't really notarize a deed over here. There are notaries here. So I got a couple of stuff notarized, but then you need to get a government stamp called an app of steel. That's like a foreign stamp where the Irish government say, yeah, this is an Irish notary. I know in the US, they can't see if the notary is valid so the government like stamped something it takes like three weeks so i've got a signing agent in the states that signs documents for me just for my closings so there's a lot of roadblocks there but what i will say is like the technology is coming on things are getting easier like you can do like online notarization now some of the banks are becoming more equipped since covid but like online opening and stuff but it certainly can be challenging a lot of the banks are like well why do we need your small business? Like I'm a mom and pop business. It's not like I'm a huge company. And like stuff like credit lines, you can't get US credit. There are a couple of ones that you can borrow money for. Houses if you're a non-resident, but not for land. And you look me up, you skip trace me and I'm like a bit of a ghost. You know, it's all just a little bit more complicated. Every problem can be solved, but it's just like more hassle for me. So the notary situation. So you basically just have somebody locally in the US who has authority to do that on your behalf. Can you use something like notarize.com or anything like that? Or does that not really help you at all? needs that government stamp and all that. So notarize.com doesn't work because they can only do like US signers. I've been using Blue Notary. Blue Notary can do like a knowledge-based verification, I think it's called, or like you upload a copy of your passport and they can verify that you're a legit signer. I think there's notaries in like Florida and stuff, but not all the telecom companies accept that. And I have to look at like lots of different solutions to try and find that company to be able to work for me. But if you're like a US citizen and you live anywhere, you can definitely use like notarize.com and it's a good bit easier. Yeah, I feel like that's going to get more and more difficult, sort of, just because now with AI stuff, you can do like a live deep fake on Zoom and look like somebody you're not. And you can make fake images of your driver's license or passport and all this stuff. It's just like, it's, yeah, I don't know. I do know I'd interviewed Arturo Paturzo back in episode 164, retipster.com forward slash 164. So he does a lot of the same stuff that kieran was just mentioning but he was a guy named tony durante who basically his whole profession is doing all of this stuff for people that live in other countries like i'm gonna help you get stuff notarized i'm gonna help you set up your llc i'll help you set up your bank account i'll be the guy here who is your liaison with these local places to get stuff set up so is that kind of what you do then. Yeah, like I don't want somebody to have signing power and have access to the funds for the business. You could maybe employ somebody as like a manager for your business and have them like open a bank account for you. But then they also have signing power for the bank account because they've opened it. And I just wasn't comfortable with that. But like largely, yeah, that's what I've done. Like I've met other people that are doing land flipping from the Philippines, from Australia, from all over the globe. And from chatting with people that have the same problems, you can then find these kind of solutions. I've really made a business of trying to find people that are further along than I am. I had this accountability group that we ran for five years where I met with people every month that were trying to grow the land business. And we would review each other's businesses and give each other feedback. Oh, well, what do you do with this situation? What do you do with this situation? And having a second person to bounce ideas off has just been very, very helpful. especially with some of these stupid issues. Oh, like now, you know, to use Blue Notary Bush, I've tried them all, you know? Yeah. I'll include links to all the stuff that Kiran is talking about in the show notes for this episode, retipster.com forward slash 231. If anyone wants to check that out. But Kiran, we're only through like half the questions I wanted to ask you, but this episode is already getting fairly long. A couple of just closing questions here. So do you have some kind of long-term vision for your business? Like is land investing your end game or do you see this as a launch pad? Something else? Like, where do you want to be in five years? It's a hard question. I ask myself that question a number of times a year. Right now, I feel like we're getting some good momentum with the business. I want to hire probably two closers on the team in the next couple of years. And I'm interested in commercial property. I've always been interested in buying some commercial property. So I think I do do some of that. I feel like I've kind of worked through a lot of the issues of the business. And I'm happy with where I'm at right now. I think I'll grow the business a little bit bigger and hire a couple more people so I can be less in the business, but I kind of like where I'm at. Oh, that's awesome. If somebody is listening to this, maybe they are in Ireland or Europe or somewhere else in the world. Maybe they're just looking to get started and they haven't yet gone through all of the obstacles that you've figured out how to go through. Or maybe they're not even sure if land investing is viable at this point. Do you have any advice for them? I mean, we could probably piece together advice you've already given, but any like concise, do this if you're going to give it a try. Just do a few deals. I was FedExing like documents and checks back and forth to them. Like it works. It's just not as efficient, but like do a few deals. Try it out before you kind of go full deep into setting up a company and doing all this stuff. Like just start. I listened to like podcasts for hours. Years before doing anything with real estate. Like I started like somewhat young at 19, but I wasn't listening to podcasts for a couple of years. I would say, just do a deal and just see how you like it. And then you'll learn so much more from the doing than from like listening to the podcast. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. It is crazy how much you learn. You almost can't even really be explained until you've experienced it firsthand because you might have some experience that's kind of an anomaly. You know, maybe there's something weird about the market that you're working, they can't be represented in every other market that people are talking about. So I couldn't agree more with that. But of course, moving and doing it yourself is kind of the hardest part because it requires the most legwork and groundwork, but it's totally worth it. Well, Kieran, if people want to connect with you or learn more about you, you're not obligated to share anything, but if you want to, now's a great time. How could people connect if they wanted to? I think one of the best ways to just message me on Facebook, Kieran Scheele, Facebook or Instagram. I try and post there from time to time. Awesome. Well, Kieran, thanks again for your willingness to come on the show and share your wealth of knowledge. It's been awesome to get to know you a little bit. Can't wait to get to know you even better at the Landon Conference coming up. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Again, show notes, retipster.com forward slash 231. And we'll talk to you all next time. Thank you. Music. You.

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Seth Williams

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