May the Record Reflect
May the Record Reflect
68. I Feel for You: The Lawyer’s Occupational Hazard of Vicarious Trauma, with Prof. Angela Downes
Long hours, heavy caseloads, high stakes—such is the modern trial practice. But when lawyers represent survivors of violent or traumatic incidents, they often experience next-level stress caused by empathetic engagement. In this episode, UNT Dallas College of Law professor and JAMS neutral mediator, arbitrator, and special master Angela Downes introduces listeners to vicarious trauma and its effects on body and mind, how vicarious trauma differs from burnout, and how to recognize compassion fatigue in yourself and your colleagues. Most importantly, Professor Downes discusses effective stress-management strategies that would benefit anyone with a busy trial practice.
Topics
3:46 What is vicarious trauma?
4:15 Lawyers, vicarious trauma, and burnout
7:31 Indicators of vicarious trauma and getting support
15:49 How firms can help
17:40 Self-care strategies
27:55 ABA studies on lawyer stress
31:02 More strategies
35:09 Recognizing vicarious trauma in others
38:20 New generation attunement to wellness
40:24 Sign-off questions
Quote
“So many of us are defined by the work that we do, and we are more than that. We are more than just … being attorneys and counselors. Although it’s a big part of us, there are so many sides to what we do and who we are as people.” Professor Angela Downes
Resources
Professor Angela Downes (bio)
NITA Women in Trial (program)
Stress, Drink, Leave (article)
ABA Profile of the Legal Profession (article)
ABA Directory of Legal Assistance Programs (resource)
on today's episode of
Prof. Angela Downes:may the record reflect and again it's that cumulative nature it's seeing the photographs every day day in day out that can be very disturbing it's doing client interviews it is looking and interviewing witnesses even the folks that answer the phones if they're doing very difficult and challenging client intakes they can be exposed to vicarious trauma as well and although it's not happening to them it's that indirect exposure that is laying them bare to vicarious trauma
Marsi Mangan:That was Professor Angela Downs, and this is May the Record Reflect. Hello and welcome to the monthly podcast of the National Institute for Trial Advocacy. I'm your host, Marci Mangan, and in today's episode, we're talking about vicarious trauma and stress management for lawyers. I'm joined by Professor Angela Downs. She is the Assistant Director of Experiential Education and a Professor of Practice at the University of North Texas at Dallas College of Law. Before she came to UNT, Professor Downs' law practice included policy and legislative work in the areas of criminal justice, interpersonal violence, and child abuse and protection. She is a recognized subject matter expert in interpersonal violence issues, providing training, policy advice, and technical assistance to nonprofit agencies and state and local government officials. Professor Downs brings that specialized training experience to NITA, where she most often teaches at programs customized for public service lawyers. In November, she'll be among the talented faculty teaching at our Women in Trial program in Seattle. But today, I am pleased that Professor Downs is here to talk about the mental and physical side effects that often come from representing clients in trauma. and how you can look after your own well-being so you can pay it forward and take care of those who depend on your wise counsel and support. Here's our interview. Professor Angela Downs, I am so pleased to welcome you to the NITA podcast, and we're going to be speaking on such an important topic that applies really not just to lawyers, but It's great advice for all people who are listening and alive in the 21st century. So I want to welcome you to the show.
Prof. Angela Downes:Well, Marci, thank you so much to you and Nita for the kind invitation to be with you to talk about this really important topic. And as you've said, it is one that affects not only those that are practicing law, but everyone who is in the universe and under the sphere of lawyers. So paralegals, clerks. anyone that is involved in the practice of law can really benefit from what we're going to be talking about during our time together. I
Marsi Mangan:always like to kick off an episode with a definition of terms. And so I would like to know what exactly is vicarious trauma?
Prof. Angela Downes:Vicarious trauma is simply the cumulative physical trauma emotional and psychological effect of exposure to traumatic stories or events when working in a helping capacity. And it's the exposure to those things combined with the strain and stress of everyday life.
Marsi Mangan:And so why are we talking to trial lawyers in particular about vicarious trauma in today's episode?
Prof. Angela Downes:Well, the exposure to these stressful events to these physical and emotional and psychological events that lawyers come in contact with on a daily basis over time take a toll on us. And so my hope is to provide some strategies for some ways for all of us who are in the trial stratosphere to recognize vicarious trauma and then develop some strategies and some workarounds that you can incorporate into your daily life to really diminish the stress. And if you're unable to diminish the stress, to at least be able to deal with the stress in a very healthy way.
Marsi Mangan:So what you're describing sounds a lot like burnout. Is there a difference between burnout and vicarious trauma?
Prof. Angela Downes:There is. There is. What distinguishes burnout from vicarious trauma is that vicarious trauma is a condition that can actually be met through PTSD or post-traumatic stress disorder. And it's defined in our DSM-5. And It's met through that indirect exposure to trauma in a professional capacity. And again, it's that cumulative nature. It's seeing the photographs every day, day in, day out, that can be very disturbing. It's doing client interviews. It is looking and interviewing witnesses. Even the folks that answer the phones, if they're doing very difficult and challenging client intakes, they can be exposed to vicarious trauma as well. And although it's not happening to them, it's that indirect exposure that is laying them bare to vicarious trauma.
Marsi Mangan:How else might certain representations expose you to trauma?
Prof. Angela Downes:Testimony in court is another way that lawyers might be exposed to vicarious trauma. Looking at very graphic material, If you are working with sexual assault or human trafficking victims, really hearing those stories will take a toll on you. Doing that victim services work, even though as lawyers we are attorneys, you're an attorney and counselor. And so you don't always compartmentalize the very difficult things that you are seeing as an attorney and it will affect you.
Marsi Mangan:Yeah, it would make you feel a little bleak about humanity in a way that you can't just close your office door on.
Prof. Angela Downes:Absolutely. And I think what's interesting to note is we have been taught traditionally in the traditional law school model that we need to compartmentalize and that we can just shut ourselves off from some of the more graphic things that we are being exposed to. But what we are finding in the research is very clear that if you don't deal with these things that you are seeing, if you don't If you don't have mechanisms in place where you can take a step back, where you can process what you are dealing with, then it can have a very negative impact on your career. It can have a negative impact on every aspect of your life. with alcohol and drugs. And often in our profession, we'll turn to alcohol, we'll turn to a substance in order to cope with what we're seeing.
Marsi Mangan:Well, there is so much about the practice of law that contributes to all of that kind of stress. You know, you've got the really long work hours and the intensity and frankly, the high stakes of the work itself, because you're responsible for the outcome of other people's lives. That is a lot to bear. And then adding other people's trauma on top of it.
Prof. Angela Downes:There are definitely symptoms and indicators of vicarious trauma that I'd like for folks to be thinking about. This isn't an exhaustive list, but a lot of what folks start to see in their work is things like avoidance. I mean, if you're avoiding contacting certain clients, not returning phone calls, I know and I will confess that I have had this happen. The phone rings, I will look at the phone and realize that it is a particular client and think, gee, I really don't want to talk to this client. but really knowing that the importance of what I'm doing, that I do need to speak with them. But really, if you are starting to have decreased empathy to clients, also hypervigilance, if you're feeling on edge, if you've got an intense worry about the safety or welfare of clients, if you're easily startled or upset, if you're just very, very irritable, if things are just setting you off, you're more easily agitated, difficulty concentrating, focusing, remembering things, if you feel a hopelessness about the work. And for a lot of folks who are doing public interest work, there sometimes seems as though there's a revolving door of clients who are coming in. There's a steady stream. And I had a lawyer tell me who was a public interest lawyer who did landlord-tenant work. that she said, I just wish I had a money tree because that's kind of the root of what she finds for her clients, that they just need funding. And it was something that was weighing very heavily on her. And a lot of times, if you have trouble really remembering your purpose, why, you know, what's your why? I think that's such an important thing for lawyers to keep in mind because whatever your reasons for becoming a lawyer are, You can agree that most lawyers get into the profession because they have a respect for the work that we do and they understand that it's a noble profession and they really believe in the rule of law and what we're doing. Also, difficulty sleeping. That can be a really big one. There are lawyers in sleep. is something I really want us to pay attention to. We are not getting enough sleep. I always say that this is the, you know, your mother was right. We need at least seven hours of sleep each night. That's not me or our mother saying this. It's the Academy of Sleep Medicine. And the research tells us that healthy sleep is important for cognitive functioning, for our mood, for mental health, for our heart health, for our brain health and for our metabolism so you know a lot of the research is saying if we want to be better lawyers we really need to get more sleep
Marsi Mangan:it's a vicious circle isn't it it is the less you sleep the more irritable you are the less you can focus um the more you don't have the energy to do the work you want to do. Yes.
Prof. Angela Downes:And so, you know, I'm really encouraging people as I'm working with them on the issue of vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue to really look and to start practicing some good sleep hygiene. Because, you know, the research also tells us that lawyers in the United States, we are the second... most sleep deprived. Doctors are getting more sleep than lawyers. So we really, yeah, we absolutely need to get our sleep. But as we're talking about sleep hygiene, making sure that you have a space that is only dedicated to sleep, keeping your phone, if you can't turn it off, if it If it needs to be near you on the nightstand, make sure it's turned to do not disturb. Also, if you can put it across the room, I'm working on that. And eventually I'm hoping that I can get my phone out of the room.
Marsi Mangan:Yeah, I think we all struggle with
Prof. Angela Downes:that. Yes, yes. And, you know, and not picking it up in the middle of the night, but maybe keeping a little notepad if you wake up and you need to jot down a note or two. It might be illegible, but at least it's kind of off your mind. Yeah. But making sure that you have a space that's dedicated to sleep. We saw during the pandemic that there was a blurred line between work and home that really affected our sleep hygiene. But if you can have a separate workspace in your home, preferably with a door that you can close, that you can leave your work in that space and then have a separate space where you work, where you sleep, it really starts to train your body and you'll find that you'll sleep a lot better and you're going to be feeling a lot better.
Marsi Mangan:Yeah, the increase in technology, kind of the blurring of those boundaries has made it difficult for everyone, really. to leave work behind. So having a door that you can actually close does help.
Prof. Angela Downes:It does. It does. You know, and some other things I'd like, you know, as we talk about some of the symptoms is many times we become isolated as lawyers and we forget that we are a community. And so I'm going to encourage lawyers to really make sure that they have folks that they can trust who are supporting them in their practice when things get tough. that they can reach out to. The previous Surgeon General actually came out with this study a couple of years ago focusing on loneliness. And one of the things that came out through that research was that although we are more connected through social media, we don't have real connections. So, you know, people say that they have a social media connection or they are in a group, but it's not the same as having that in-person connection. So there's a push not only through the Surgeon General's report, but through online. One of the universities has a very robust, Harvard has a robust study on loneliness, and they're encouraging you to have real connections with people. So get involved with your bar association. And then also think of things that you can do that are separate and apart from your law practice that you enjoy doing, whatever that is. But you've got to have those things that are connecting you with a real community of people.
Marsi Mangan:What responsibility does your firm or your legal organization have toward helping you navigate the difficulty of the stress and vicarious trauma that we've been talking about?
Prof. Angela Downes:That is such a good question. I really think that all firms, all organizations really need to have a plan in place. They need to be forward thinking because it's not if. this is going to happen, it's when. This is very, our jobs are stressful and they're becoming even more stressful with each passing day. So I would encourage decision makers and organizations and in law firms to really take the time, do some planning. There's some really wonderful folks out there who have expertise in this area that can work with you. I've worked with the Department of Justice And other organizations on really seeing what is it that we can do so that employees and lawyers are protected when these things happen and, you know, deciding. making sure that people know that there's an employee assistance program. Most organizations have one. It's free of charge and it has wonderful resources that you can take advantage of. So just knowing what's available and then knowing what is going to be the protocol if somebody needs to take a leave of absence or go and get help. What is that going to look like when they leave? How is that work going to be redistributed? And then if they transition back How are they going to be integrated back into that environment? So really having those hard conversations and really ensuring that you've got something in place, because as I said, it's not if it's going to happen, it's when.
Marsi Mangan:Right. So what are some good strategies then for decreasing the effect of that emotional load that you're carrying?
Prof. Angela Downes:That's a good question. And Marcy, you know, people are really clinging to the word self-care. And there's a lot of talk and attention around the issue of self-care. And as we talk about self-care, I want to encourage folks to not just think of self-care as going and buying a candle or something. you know, getting a massage. But when I'm talking about self-care, I want you to integrate some very detailed activities, some strategies that become part of what you do so that you can, that you can really survive and thrive in the work that we're doing. Okay, so I've got some things I want to talk about. And We'll talk about them in terms of mental health, health behavior, physical health, and then thinking about, again, positive relationships. So the first thing I'd love for us to think about is taking regular vacations. And with those vacations, I'm going to encourage you to make them work and computer free. That is very challenging for lawyers. It is very challenging. So just the fact that you're going to take a regular vacation, we leave as workers in the US, we leave millions of hours of untaken vacation on the table. For a lot of us, it's a badge of honor. that we are working 50 to 60 hours a week, but it's really running us down. But it helps your mental load knowing that you have something to look forward to. There's a quote that I really like that says, the grand essentials of happiness are something to do, something to love, something to give, and something to hope for. And oftentimes, if you schedule a vacation, it can be your something to look forward to. because you know that you're gonna really take some time off. And being able to really unplug is so critical. And it can be difficult, but I'm gonna tell you about something that I have done that's been very helpful for me. Because like most lawyers, I'm a type A personality. I don't wanna come back to a million emails when I've been on vacation, but I had made a deal with my family that they would let me bring my computer on vacation and they would give me one hour during that vacation time each day where I could check my email.
Marsi Mangan:And so that's your pressure release valve.
Prof. Angela Downes:That would, yes. So I was still able, if there was a fire that was going on in the office, I would still have a time when I could check emails, respond. They set a timer for me. They actually did this during spring break. And once that hour was over, they took my computer and they locked it in the hotel server. Wow, that's
Marsi Mangan:pretty hardcore.
Prof. Angela Downes:It's very hardcore. But Marcy, it was such a positive thing for me. It allowed me to be present during this time with my family. And it allowed me to really enjoy the experience because I wasn't distracted by my phone or computer. I could really be in the moment. And I noticed that when I came back, I was really refreshed. I really had a chance to unplug and I was ready to get back to work.
Marsi Mangan:That's great. You know, before you told... Before you shared this tip, you had mentioned that Americans leave a lot of vacation time unused. And the thing that you need to remember is that vacation time, paid time off, is actually part of your compensation package. And so if you're not taking that time, you're leaving money on the table. Definitely.
Prof. Angela Downes:Definitely. And you need it. You've earned it. Exactly. You have earned that time. So let's talk about another strategy that I want folks to think about, and that's staycation. So maybe you don't have the time to go on a vacation and plan your time, but you might be able to have the opportunity to plan something in your hometown. And I have done this where... I stayed in town and planned some activities as though I was a tourist in my town. So going to museums, really checking out things that were new and exciting. Maybe there were things that I'd always wanted to get around to visiting, a museum, a park, whatever it is. But just looking at my city through fresh eyes. can really be exciting. Exercise, exercise is really important. And we're not suggesting that you need to be an Olympic athlete, but you really do need to move. And if you can walk for 15 to 30 minutes, many times it can get your blood going. And what you'll find is if you step away and come back, Even for a small amount of time, you'll feel refreshed. You'll be more engaged in your work and you'll be more productive because you've had just a change of scenery. And that's something that's easy that you can do. Also healthy eating. Yeah, a little break. If we think about what we're putting into our bodies, fruits, vegetables, lean meats, vegetables, It really does make a difference. It's so easy. I know like most organizations, there are snacks in our snack room, but maybe encouraging those who are in charge of the snacks to maybe leave some apples and oranges and maybe some low salt and sugar snacks. It can really make a difference. If you're putting good things into your body, it's really going to help you to really feel better and you'll be more productive. Also, make sure that you're taking breaks throughout the day. I know a lot of us get in, you know, we call it getting into the zone where you just are, your head is down and you're working on a project and you're going to plow through and then you'll look up and you will have been sitting at your desk or in your office for hours on end without a break. Everybody is guilty of that. Make sure you get up. walk around. You know, I have colleagues who will do dance breaks. They'll close their door and turn on a little music and just kind of dance around their office. Nobody's watching, so heck. But make sure that you are taking some breaks throughout the day, that you're not just in your office hour after hour and not being engaged in some other activities. I
Marsi Mangan:think we're all guilty of eating al desco, eating at our desk instead of, you know, just hopping into the lunchroom or stepping outside and eating, even for 15 minutes, it makes a big difference just to get away.
Prof. Angela Downes:Absolutely. Absolutely. So no more sad desk lunches. We're going to make sure that we go and eat in our lunchroom or some other location. If it's a nice day, go sit outside. Sounds good. Also, setting clear work boundaries. This is really, really important. I know there are Again, folks that think that it's a badge of honor to answer emails at, you know, just all hours of the night, you know, two or three in the morning. But really, you've got to have some clear work boundaries. There are folks who say, I'm not going to answer emails after, you know, seven o'clock at night. or whatever the time is that works for them. And then they'll start answering emails, maybe from seven, they'll turn off and not answer. And then they'll start answering emails again at seven o'clock in the morning. Whatever that timeframe is, it really shows people that your work colleagues that your time away is important. And it really shows your family that you want to be and you are focused on them when you're not constantly checking your email. I had a colleague who told me that she asked her daughter what she wanted and she said, mommy, I want you to be present with me and not on your phone. And she said that really hit her very hard. But again, you know, our families notice when we are not present, when we are not there. And they appreciate it when we can unplug and be present. And you'll feel better when you have that time away, when you're not just constantly plugged in 24 hours a day. When you are plugged in, you'll be more productive and you'll feel better about the work that you're doing. Absolutely. So I will share this as well. As we're talking about the work boundaries, we talked a little bit about having that separate workspace and how important that is. There was a study that the American Bar Association did a couple of years ago, and what they were looking at was lawyers' stress. So they wanted to look at gender-specific risk factors for mental health problems and also the attrition rate among licensed attorneys. They looked at almost 3,000 attorneys and what they found was, particularly with attrition, that 25% of women had thought about leaving the profession, 17% of men. And this was up from what they'd found in years past. They also looked at risky drinking. And this became particularly true during the pandemic when everyone was at home. I can't believe the pandemic is five years ago. But we're still kind of dealing with some of the things that are left over from that. Women were screening higher for COVID. risky drinking at 55.9%. And 34% were screened for hazardous drinking. So that was drinking to, you know, you blacked out. And of course we know that drinking increased during the pandemic. We were all at home, but those things were still dealing kind of with those outcomes from the pandemic. And so a lot of that drinking, We're still dealing with that right now.
Marsi Mangan:One thing about drinking that I always keep top of mind is that if you're drinking to relieve stress, you're actually taking a depressant into your body, and that's not going to help you.
Prof. Angela Downes:Yeah, you're not. Yeah. Risky drinking, I want to make sure folks know how that is defined. For men, it's defined as five or more drinks per occasion. And for women, it's four or more drinks per occasion. So it's quite a lot. And the standard drink is defined as 12 ounces of beer, five ounces of wine, or 1.5 ounces of an 80 proof spirit. So that would be gin, vodka, tequila, whatever that spirit is. But just thinking about what you're doing. And I know a lot of bar associations are really rethinking alcohol. as part of events and programming. It was almost a given in the profession that if there was going to be an event, there was going to be an open bar. And so a lot of local bar associations are thinking about how can we do this, maybe having a bar, but including some mocktails or maybe not having the bar kind of front and center.
Marsi Mangan:Yeah, that's smart.
Prof. Angela Downes:So we're still talking about some strategies. So I've still got a few more that I want to talk about. One that I think is really important is having activities or hobbies that are outside of work, whatever those things are that you, you know, fill you with joy and you really enjoy. There are folks that are quilters that like to read, that like to travel, that birdwatch, whatever it is, find that thing and really foster that and lean into it because so many of us are defined by the work that we do. And we are more than that. We are more than just, you know, being attorneys and counselors, although it's a big part of us. There's so many sides to what we do and who we are as people. And also we talked about connections, but I really wanted honestly want to stress that again. You've got to be connected with friends, family, and a community. You need people in this profession and you need people that you can count on. Everyone has, you know, the folks that are there when you have that great day in court, but when you have the not so great days, you really need to have folks that you can count on that can support you.
Marsi Mangan:Well, those are all great tips. Before I get on to the next question, is there anything else?
Prof. Angela Downes:One other thing I want folks to think and to consider is consider counseling. If it's something that is really beyond what you can handle by yourself, don't be embarrassed. Don't be ashamed to have a counselor. just kind of in your tool bag and consider that part of what's going to keep you mentally healthy. Ideally, think about a therapist who treats folks with trauma. They'll have some special skills and training that'll be really helpful to you. And you can certainly reach out to local mental health agencies and look for those and look for recommendations from those who will be able to assist you. But really think about counseling to get someone that can really help you navigate a space. It can be very helpful. One other thing that I don't want folks to forget is that every single bar association in this country has a lawyer's assistance program. And you can just Google your state Bar Association under Texas, excuse me, under, I'm thinking of Texas, but you can Google under your lawyer's assistance program and they have programming and resources that are free. They generally have a 24-hour hotline or text line that you can text anonymously if you're in crisis. And you can also, if you have a colleague who is in crisis, you can reach out to that person on some else's behalf to say that you have a colleague who's in crisis and they'll have somebody that can reach out. Don't be concerned that they are going to report to any of the grievances or any of the bar associations. There's generally an agreement where any mental health issues that you might be going through will not be reported to the bar exam. And this becomes important for those who are law students and are getting ready to take the bar exam.
Marsi Mangan:Yeah, that's great advice. And I'm actually glad that you mentioned colleagues because we've talked a lot about all the different supports that are out there for us, but we haven't yet talked about what to do if you think one of your colleagues is struggling with vicarious trauma or this kind of stress.
Prof. Angela Downes:You know, I think it's important for folks to recognize that they are not alone and it really does take all of us looking out for each other. One of the simplest things that you can do is to be alert for the signs and symptoms, the things that we talked about, the irritability, anger, not coming to work, just some of the other things that we talk about. Those symptoms can be really subtle, but they can speak loudly if you have a colleague who is going through a challenging time. Also, think about how you would want to be supported. if you notice that a colleague is going through a challenging time, what was it that, you know, think about how you would want someone to react and, and the, the help and the strategies that might be effective for you. And then you can apply those to a colleague that you see that, that, that might be struggling.
Marsi Mangan:Yeah. So lead with empathy is what I hear.
Prof. Angela Downes:Absolutely. Also, you know, if there's a trusted supervisor that you can talk to and then it, And if possible, talk to that colleague and say, I recognize that you're struggling. And is there some way that I can help you get some assistance? And just really talking to you, but being open about what they need and leaving that door open if they say perhaps it's not the time for them.
Marsi Mangan:Yeah. They know that you're paying attention and you're there to listen and help. So you... I think you touched on this just a tiny bit when you mentioned working with the DOJ on some of the vicarious trauma issues. And so what is your professional interest in vicarious trauma? Where did that come about?
Prof. Angela Downes:One of the things that I noticed, you know, I've been a practicing lawyer, obviously, but I've had colleagues who have struggled with over the years with different things. But one of the things that I noticed with my law students was that there would be a time almost like clockwork where I would have a line of students out my door who were dealing with very, very difficult life issues. And I just started doing research trying to figure out what is it that we can do as we're working to train the next generation of law students to make sure that they are equipped to have a positive legal career, but not completely lose themselves from the work that they're getting ready to embark on. And so that's really my interest in vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue.
Marsi Mangan:Do you feel like incoming generations, of which I must admit my son is among them, he just graduated from law school two weeks ago, have a fuller toolkit, so to speak, to deal with the practical realities of a very stressful and demanding profession, and especially for those that do the kind of work that we've been talking about where they are subjected to vicarious trauma.
Prof. Angela Downes:Well, I will say this. First, congratulations to your son. Oh, thank you. Very proud of him. That is exciting. That is very exciting. You know, my assessment is that the American Bar Association, which is, of course, The organization that develops a curriculum and devises the structure of law schools and accreditation and so forth has really recognized the need to look at the full lawyer. I've seen a shift in the curriculum just from my 10 years as a law professor where I've been doing vicarious trauma for 10 years, and now it's something that's being incorporated as mandatory in the curriculum. So the American Bar Association is recognizing that. They're also looking at professional development and the professional nature of lawyers who are coming into the practice. And specifically for your question, I do think that the new generation of lawyers are more attuned to With mental health issues, there's less of a stigma associated with mental health and that they recognize that it's something that they must pay attention to if they want to be, you know, have long range success in the profession. So I think that's really a positive thing. It is. For the lawyers that are coming up through the ranks now.
Marsi Mangan:You can't take good care of your clients if you're not taking good care of yourself first. Do you have a moment for a couple of bonus questions before we say goodbye?
Prof. Angela Downes:Absolutely.
Marsi Mangan:Okay. I always love to know what people are watching on TV. So I just have to know, what have you been into lately?
Prof. Angela Downes:I am watching a very funny show. I love humor and I absolutely love comedy. So I'm watching an Apple Plus show called Loot with Maya Rudolph and And it is absolutely hilarious where she, it's a fish out of water story. comedy where she is a billionaire who divorces. She and her husband get divorced and she becomes involved in a charity that she and her husband started when they were married. And it's just kind of her twist and turns, but actually her how she evolves into a philanthropist. So it's funny. It's thought provoking. And Maya Rudolph is absolutely hilarious.
Marsi Mangan:She is. Well, you mentioned millionaires. How would you treat yourself if you had a million bucks? And I don't mean paying bills or anything boring and sensible like that.
Prof. Angela Downes:How would you treat yourself? If I had a million dollars, I would want to share it with everyone. And what I would do, aside from getting my team together to see how we could grow this income so we could do some good work, I would take... my best friends, my family on the vacation of a lifetime. And we would go to Lanai in Hawaii and just have a wonderful time.
Marsi Mangan:That sounds amazing.
Prof. Angela Downes:Maybe you could buy a little beach house and make it a regular function. Absolutely, absolutely. See, but I would need folks to help me plan. That sounds great.
Marsi Mangan:Well, Professor Downs, thank you again for coming on board to talk to us about vicarious trauma and stress relief and self-care. I think this was a really great and important conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you. As always, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. The modern law practice is stressful enough even without the addition of vicarious trauma. So remember to take good care of yourself. And if you think a friend or colleague would get something out of this episode, we hope you'll send it their way. Please join us again next month when NITA trustee and program director Whitney Untied returns to the podcast to talk about depositions. She's done it before and she's coming back to do it again. So please tune in. Until then, we at NITA wish you the very best of luck in your depositions, motions, and trials. Happy lawyering. May the Record Reflect is NITA Studio 71 production. NITA. We are advocacy enhanced, mentorship reimagined. Welcome to the community.