77. Stay Thirsty, My Friends: The Argument for Lifelong Legal Learning, with Veronica Finkelstein and Marisa Rauscher

Wilmington Law Associate Professor of Law Veronica Finkelstein and law student Dr. Marisa Rauscher discuss what it takes to become an exceptional litigator, from growing your essential hard and soft skills to unconventional ways of developing them, and transforming your personal values into a professional brand. They also explore why maintaining a beginner’s mind — curiosity that never quits — is critical at every stage of a rewarding legal career and recommend their favorite law-related social content that helps them do just that.

Topics
5:24  Why to teach, and why to learn, law
7:60  Lacking skills out of law school
10:01 Various toolkits for trial lawyers 
13:39 What new lawyers should focus on
15:37 Importance of writing and motion practice skills
18:28 Going to trial: present and future
27:35 Professional branding and marketing yourself as a lawyer
33:40 Informal CLE through social media
36:17 Younger lawyers have an advantage
45:35 Signoff question

Quotes

“Being an attorney means having a holistic set of skills. A lot of those skills are variations on each other, so the same skill that will serve you well at that Rule 16 conference, when you meet the judge and opposing counsel for the very first time, is an analog of a skill that you would want to have at trial.” Veronica Finkelstein

“Great minds and well-intentioned people have tried to establish rules to play by, that serve all in a just fashion, and I want to be in that game, I really do. I want to know the law, I want to use the law for good, and I also want to cultivate the soft and hard skills of lawyering so that my advocacy rests on a strong foundation of excellence. That’s the goal. Know more, do more.” Marisa Rauscher

Resources

Veronica Finkelstein (LinkedIn)
Marisa Rauscher (LinkedIn)
Veronica in studio71 (podcast, podcast, webcast)
Additional Advocacy Skills (program calendar)
Law-related podcasts, vlogs, and YouTubes (PDF)

Transcript

Marsi Mangan 0:06

On today's episode of May the Record Reflect.

Veronica Finkelstein 0:12

And at every stage of the game, I'm asking myself, how do I tee this case up to say what I want to say in closing argument? Okay, well, if that's what I want to say in closing argument, what do I need witnesses and exhibits to put into evidence at trial? Okay, if that's what needs to go in at trial, what motions and lemonade do I need to have? And here we have writing, right? And as you keep working backwards, it's really kind of mostly writing from that point back. If I want these great motions and lemonade, I gotta get this case to court. That's probably a pretrial memo at minimum. Could be a settlement memo as part of an attempt at settlement negotiations, but it definitely is some dispositive motion briefing. And then how do I get to that dispositive motion briefing? Well, that's all discovery. And that's a lot of writing too. So frankly, as you keep working back through the life cycle of a case, if you love trials and you want to end up in trials, you better be an adequate writer to get yourself there. And if you can embrace and enjoy the writing process, well, think about litigation like an iceberg. Just that little tip is above the water. That's the non-writing part. The rest of it has some touch point with writing. And so the better and more confident you get at that writing, the better you're going to be as a litigator.

Marisa Rauscher 1:32

And so podcasts, as just an example, have been a game changer for me. I like learning about different perspectives and connecting to the lol in this way as I'm listening. And it's still new to me, this world of lol. And my brain is literally rewiring, mapping, if you will. So listening to podcasts on current class content helps me connect all the dots. Um, and this started for me, my first semester in law school. This is true. I listened to Anita podcast on depositions. Um, and it featured a guest, um, and the guest was Professor Finkelstein. Once again, this is just really true. Um, and this was brand new to me. It was my first semester, and it was a new way of learning for me. And now I have not stopped listening to legal content.

Marsi Mangan 2:37

That was Professor Veronica Finkelstein and Dr. Marisa Rauscher. And this is May the Record Reflect. Hello and welcome to the monthly podcast of the National Institute for Trial Advocacy. I'm your host, Marsi Mangan, and in today's episode, I am talking to Law Professor Veronica Finkelstein and law student Marisa Rauscher. I'll start with Marisa. She's not just a midlife law student at the Wilmington University School of Law, or Professor Finkelstein student, or even the inaugural editor-in-chief of the Wilmington Law Review. She's also a former secondary and special education teacher. And currently, she's a professor of educational psychology at Newman University in Pennsylvania. To say she's an accomplished go-getter is rather an understatement. Along with Marisa is Veronica Finkelstein. You already know Veronica from her two previous episodes on depositions, and it is always a treat to have her on the show. Veronica spent the majority of her career as an assistant United States Attorney with the U.S. Department of Justice in Philadelphia before transitioning to a full-time teaching position at the Wilmington University School of Law. She's a frequent program director at NITA and in 2024 was part of a faculty delegation that instructed public defenders and prosecutors at a NITA program for the Bureau of the Public Defender in LAGO State, Nigeria. Today, Veronica and Marisa are on May the Record Reflect to talk about the hard and soft skills necessary for becoming an exceptional litigator, how to develop those skills in unconventional ways, and why having a beginner's mind, that endless curiosity that's crucial to the process of learning, is something you must cultivate the entire length and not just the beginning of your legal career. Here's our interview. So today I am pleased to welcome Wilmington University School of Law Professor Veronica Finkelstein and class of 2027 law student Marisa Rauscher. Professor Finkelstein, in your legal career, you have worn many hats. You've been a litigator, you are currently a professor, and you've been a longtime instructor here at NITA. What first drew you to trial advocacy and to teaching?

Veronica Finkelstein 5:23

Well, I'm probably in a minority here, but I just loved being a lawyer when I was practicing. I think being a lawyer is one of the absolute best jobs out there. And because I loved it so much, and so many people seemed to look down upon it or, you know, question when they were in law school whether or not the law was for them, I thought it was incumbent on me to try to spread some of the joy that I had for the law. And so that's part of what brought me to teaching. And I also think that advocacy is often seen as a standalone discipline, that it's just a skill, but it can cross into substance as well. And I've been very lucky to teach a lot of classes that overlap nicely with advocacy. Evidence, which is my absolute favorite class to teach, and also criminal procedure. And that is how Marisa and I met because she is in my criminal procedure course this semester.

Marsi Mangan 6:14

You are the first current law student I have ever had on the podcast, and I'm delighted to have you here. Thank you, Marsi. That is an incredible honor. So what inspired you to go to law school in the first place? And then also to take Professor Finkelstein's criminal procedure course?

Marisa Rauscher 6:32

Well, I have spent my career in schools. I was a special educator and a high school English teacher for a decade. And then I found myself wanting to know more about the teens that I was teaching. So I ended up doing a PhD in educational psychology and landed in higher ed for over two decades. But I had always wanted to go to law school. And when I was younger, that just felt incredibly unattainable. Doing this degree later in life really has amplified even more my appreciation for this opportunity. So the mantra has been each step of the way in making this happen, I want to learn more so I can do more.

Marsi Mangan 7:17

I think that's really fantastic. And I can relate to a lot of what you're saying without getting into it, but I do. So, Veronica, there is an old chestnut that I think we've all heard about how law school doesn't really teach you how to be a lawyer. But NITA exists because of that old chestnut. Many of the founders of NITA were judges who bemoan the fact that so many of the trial lawyers who came through the courtroom really didn't know what they were doing. And of course, that affects the outcomes that their clients receive. So they created NITA and learning by doing. So my question is: what skills do you see students lacking when they first come out of law school?

Veronica Finkelstein 7:59

I'm hoping that we're going to get a little better at this in the academy in law schools with the rolling out of the next gen bar exam, which does emphasize understanding doctrinal teaching in the context of demonstrating it in skills. But even with the next gen bar and the prep that we're doing for students to take the next gen bar, I think that a lot of times in law schools, skills courses are optional. So students don't take them unless they want to, which means that some students are graduating, having had virtually no skills training at all. And that many students take trial advocacy because it's fun and it's juicy and it's exciting. And I get that, right? We all want that a few good men moment when we're standing up there cross-examining Colonel Jessup. And hopefully we get a, you know, the kind of answer that's the mic drop that Tom Cruise got in that movie. But the reality is that at least in the beginning of one's career, you may or may not get the opportunity to try a lot of cases or try a lot of cases yourself solo, where you're doing all of the various skills from opening to closing. And there's a lot of other skills that lawyers need early on in their career. They need hard skills like writing skills, but not just drafting memos and appellate briefs, drafting contracts and real estate documents. They need skills in terms of handling motions, not just drafting them and filing them, but arguing them as well. And they need soft skills as well. They need communication skills, they need client management skills. And I think law schools could do a better job and hopefully are starting to do a better job of letting students know how important these skills are and encouraging them to take these courses. But again, it's often optional. And so many students graduate from law school without having the full array of school of skills that they need to really be effective. NITA does a great job filling in some of those skills. And I'm hoping that people will become aware of some outside-the-box NITA programs that exist beyond just trial skills.

Marsi Mangan 10:00

So it's really a lot of on-the-job learning. How do the needs of a junior lawyer, for example, differ from those of the more seasoned litigator?

Veronica Finkelstein 10:10

That's a great question. So as a junior lawyer, I practiced both at a large law firm and also at a small boutique firm. And the amount of contact that I had with clients and the expectations that clients had for me differed in those two different settings. I also was a government lawyer. It differed there as well. But a lot of what junior lawyers are doing is providing work product for more senior lawyers. And that is a different skill in many ways than providing work product directly for the court. As they become less intro-level and more mid-level, those lawyers also have a lot of touch points with clients. And clients have different expectations for those mid-level lawyers than they do for perhaps partners or counsel, senior counsel on the case. And so I think what's important is understanding the expectations at each level and having the right toolkit at that level. So, for example, a brand new attorney who's a first year at a law firm is not going to be expected to draft an appellate brief and argue before the Supreme Court. But that attorney is going to communicate through email with others on the team, may draft discovery letters to the court, may do some drafting, taking the first draft at more simple filings and perhaps doing research for more sophisticated filings, and may end up doing some negotiations on behalf of the team, negotiating discovery or perhaps going to discovery court. And if you think about it, these are very different skills than the skills that you need to prevail at trial or the skills that you need to successfully argue in a pellet brief. And so I think this is a great example of the fact that our skills change and develop as we move through our careers. And we want to make sure that we have the right training, whether on the job or from a law school course or through NITA, to have those skills when we need them in our toolkit.

Marsi Mangan 12:06

Marisa, as you mentioned, you have been in the workforce for quite a few years prior to going to law school. So do you think that the skills that matter the most are being taught effectively in law school?

Marisa Rauscher 12:20

Yes, it's interesting to think about this. Marsi, you said this little simple concept of learning by doing. It's it's it's just a few words, but it's profound. And then as I listened to Professor Finkelstein speak, I was thinking about differentiation, how we really refine our skills for the different spaces that we're in. And at Wilmiew Law, I've found that the professors and the professional staff have really prioritized blending that doctrinal knowledge with real life experience. And this has happened for me in both intern and extern opportunities and through professors taking time to embed lawyering skill exercises in each and every class. So I think I've been very fortunate. We've also been invited, um all of us have been invited to participate in a cross-section of trial advocacy opportunities. I myself was able to compete in a deposition competition with the Professor Finkelstein as one's coach. How can you do better than that?

Marsi Mangan 13:29

I don't think you can. That's fabulous. So, Veronica, what is one skill that you think new lawyers should focus on?

Veronica Finkelstein 13:38

I have an easy answer to this question, and it's writing, writing skills. When I teach law school classes, I tell students there are two classes that I know they are going to need, whether they're going to do criminal or civil work, whether they're going to be solo practitioners or work for a form or firm or organization. There is one thing that I know they will always do, and that is write. And the second course that's incredibly important is professional responsibility. Because if they're not ethical and they don't follow the rules, they're not going to be able to practice. They're going to have sanctions. And so I think professional responsibility is incredibly important. But the skill that is most important, in my opinion, is writing. And before you turn off this podcast and say, Well, I'm a criminal litigator, I'm a defense attorney, I rarely write motions, hear me out, because you are still writing all day long. You are communicating with clients via email. You are communicating with opposing counsel via email. You are communicating with the court, even if it's in cover letters in writing. You are communicating with your staff and taking notes for your appearances in writing. And so, in my opinion, there is never a bad time to improve one's legal writing. It seems to me to be the core most important skill that any lawyer will have. And that's why I've been so excited that NITA's been willing to branch out into some different programs and offer legal writing courses because too many legal writing courses are not learning by doing. And we know from experience that that NITA method, learning by doing, really works. And I think there's nowhere that that's more true than in the case of legal writing. You can hear me talk at you for an hour about writing and walk away no better than you were before. But if you stretch those muscles, if you write a small piece of writing and get feedback and then go back to it and try it again, you're going to get better. And that is a skill that is going to serve you well no matter what your practice is.

Marsi Mangan 15:36

So since you mentioned writing, can you highlight why writing and motion practice are just as critical as courtroom skills? And I don't know, maybe even more so.

Veronica Finkelstein 15:47

Well, the sad reality is with every passing year, fewer and fewer cases go to trial. I wish that wasn't true, but that is the reality of what the statistics show. And that's especially true for civil practitioners that more and more cases resolve before they actually get to trial through alternative dispute resolution. So if your focus is on winning your case at trial, you may not have the opportunity to do that. You have to tee yourself up to be able to win your case and advocate for your client before we actually get to trial. And so writing is incredibly important. If you don't like writing, you can think about writing as the way that you keep the case alive so that we can get to the trial. If you can't write a good summary judgment motion or oppose a good summary judgment motion, you're going to find yourself with a written opinion by a judge and you're not going to get that opportunity to go to trial. But more than that, I really think when I think about litigating a case from the end of it, from the very last moment that's in my control, and I work backwards. And at every stage of the game, I'm asking myself, how do I tee this case up to say what I want to say in closing argument? Okay, well, if that's what I want to say in closing argument, what do I need witnesses and exhibits to put into evidence at trial? Okay, if that's what needs to go in at trial, what motions and lemonade do I need to have? And here we have writing, right? And as you keep working backwards, it's really kind of mostly writing from that point back. If I want these great motions and lemine, I got to get this case to court. That's probably a pretrial memo at minimum. Could be a settlement memo as part of an attempt at settlement negotiations, but it definitely is some dispositive motion briefing. And then how do I get to that dispositive motion briefing? Well, that's all discovery. And that's a lot of writing too. So frankly, as you keep working back through the life cycle of a case, if you love trials and you want to end up in trials, you better be an adequate writer to get yourself there. And if you can embrace and enjoy the writing process, well, think about litigation like an iceberg. Just that little tip is above the water. That's the non-writing part. The rest of it has some touch point with writing. And so the better and more confident you get at that writing, the better you're going to be as a litigator. And frankly, we can all improve. Uh no matter how many times you have taken a writing course or filed a successful motion, you can always take a tip or two away that you didn't have before, a process for making things more streamlined. And so I think that writing courses are incredibly valuable for everyone, no matter where they are in the stage of their career.

Marsi Mangan 18:28

So as you said, a lot of cases settle before trial. So somebody listening might say, Well, why should I hone my trial skills and my deposition skills if there's no such thing as trials in my future? What do you say to that?

Veronica Finkelstein 18:42

Well, the only way that you can resolve a case, in my opinion, is by understanding where it's going and be able being able to get there. So it's very hard to go to a settlement conference or an arbitration or a mediation and pitch a successful resolution of the case if it appears like you couldn't try this case if we didn't resolve it. That doesn't put any pressure on the opposing parties and opposing counsel to want to come to the table and settle. So you've got to be able to do that. But more importantly, I think that some of these stages along the way, these same skills that you would get from a deposition advocacy training or from a trial advocacy training, they are versions of similar skills that you'll want to apply in other settings. So just as you might want to be able to draft a great closing argument for trial, you want to be able to draft a great pitch in a settlement memorandum to opposing counsel to explain to them why they should settle the case. Just like you've got to ask great questions on a cross-examination at trial, you better ask equally good questions at a deposition, or else you're not going to gather in discovery what you need to file that dispositive motion. So to me, all of these pieces really fit together. Being an attorney means having a holistic set of skills. A lot of those skills are variations on each other. So the same skill that will serve you well at that Rule 16 conference when you meet the judge and opposing counsel for the very first time is an analog of a skill that you would want to have at trial. But you've got to have the whole package of skills in order to be successful, unless you have the kind of practice where somebody just hands you cases to try. But again, most people don't have a practice like that.

Marsi Mangan 20:24

Marisa, from your perspective as a current law student, what skills do you think get the most focus in law school?

Marisa Rauscher 20:33

Well, to Professor Finkelstein's previous point, settling and plea bargaining is facilitated by strong writing, negotiation, advocacy. Um, and that's what Professor Finkelstein underscored. They're all interrelated. And that really resonates with me. As lawyers, we are communicators. And writing really is at the top of the complexity pyramid in terms of language. So that's an interesting point to me. And I tend to deeply appreciate the deep dive into particular body of content. So the nature of doctrinal study suits me, but I'm profoundly aware when professors integrate lawyering skills, much like the next gen bar problems, I have benefited from this. And I will emerge much more tested as a beginning career lawyer. Um, I've learned to write like a lawyer, and that's really that's really different. I I remember hearing the admissions counselor say that when I was applying to law school. And I was like, what does that mean? I've done a lot of writing in my life. It it really is meaningful, and I enjoyed that process. So I've I've experienced balance in my preparation connected to legal knowledge and writing and lawyering skills, and I'm excited to continue. to do the reps. Um confidence and expertise just increases exponentially, I believe, through practice.

Marsi Mangan 22:09

That's true. So what skills are you have you not yet acquired and that you're looking forward to?

Marisa Rauscher 22:17

Yes. Well I I think for me, being a career changer what has been most beneficial is taking the classwork that I've received that has has allowed me to do lawyering skills like our advanced legal writing class and go out into intern and extern situations and do them in the real world. Real world practice, it's just it can't be beat. And so I I need the bridge. I need the scaffolding and that's what I've received at Wilm U Law.

Marsi Mangan 22:53

Fantastic. I think that a lot of people often assume that NITA is just trial advocacy. I mean it is right there in our name Institute for Trial Advocacy. But we do have a lot of programs for different skill development and um Veronica you teach some of them.

Veronica Finkelstein 23:11

What are some lesser known programs that don't get enough attention that you think lawyers should know about so one of the big benefits of NITA is that our faculty are some of the best lawyers around but that doesn't make for a great acronym so I'll cut NITA some slack that they limited themselves just to trial advocacy in the name but we have lawyers who are at the top of their game in virtually every skill that a lawyer would need. And we have programs in all of those skills too that I wish more people would take advantage of negotiation programs, mediation and conflict resolution programs. I'm a big fan of the motion practice programs. I'm uh in charge I'm one of the two program directors who are running our online motion practice programs. There are great one-day pop-up communication and persuasion programs and evidence programs and storytelling for lawyers and lots of programs that have particular emphasises. So even if it's trial advocacy not every needed program is the same. Some of them emphasize dealing with difficult witnesses. We have deposition programs that emphasize taking depositions online. We just have such a great variety of programs and I know that people get a ton out of our trial advocacy programs. And I don't want to discourage people in enrolling in them. They are great programs but I wish people would come back for more because there is so much more that they can learn. And in particular it seems to me that motions practice programs are something that a lot of lawyers more towards the beginning of their career could really take advantage of.

Marsi Mangan 24:47

Agreed. So you teach that class and how can you tell us how that works?

Veronica Finkelstein 24:51

So my approach to the motions programs that I teach and to the legal writing programs that I teach through NITA are the same as my approach for the trial advocacy and deposition skills programs. It is learning by doing you are on your feet. It is not a passive experience it is not me standing in the front of the room or on a Zoom lecturing at you for hours at a time and you try to stay awake and at the end you fill out the form and you get your CLE that is not the need a method that is not the way that these programs work. They take you and put you in the context of being an advocate on behalf of a client and we have some specific case files that have been written uniquely to be used in motion skills programs or in writing programs. They are short, they are succinct they are simple and they put you in the position of representing a client who has a real legal problem. And through these courses we take you through all of the phases of representing that client breaking it down into skills and most importantly letting you apply those skills. So it's not me telling you how to argue a motion it's giving me you me giving you some tools and then giving you an opportunity to get up in front of either a group of your peers or on Zoom, other participants in the program and argue a little bit of the motion and get feedback and then do it again, rinse and repeat until you feel like you have that skill under your belt and you can move on to incorporating another skill. And the writing programs are the same. In these programs we take participants through drafting all of the pieces of a motion. So all of the pieces of a simple motion to dismiss or all of the pieces of a motion for summary judgment or an opposition brief. We take you through all of those pieces as a participant letting you draft each piece giving you feedback and then letting you incorporate that feedback immediately as you draft the next piece and so on and so forth. So you walk out of the program feeling like you really can do this skill. And if you come in at a high level we'll elevate you to the higher level you come in with no experience will give you the skills you need. And if you're somewhere in the middle you're going to walk away with a better process for a developing skill that you have that's going to help you advance your career and get better at that skill much more quickly than if you tried to figure it out on your own. And I think in this way we sort of differentiate ourselves from a lot of motion practice or legal writing programs that are again more passive. But this is NITA and we believe so strongly in the learning by doing, why wouldn't we apply that to motions practice and legal writing programs as well yes that makes sense.

Marsi Mangan 27:35

And I noticed that you mentioned that no matter where you are in your legal career whether you're kind of a baby lawyer maybe two years in or you've been around for decades in practice there is still something that you can learn. There are skills that you can refine and practice and build stronger muscles at. So I'm glad you mentioned that. So it wasn't too long ago that when you would market your law practice it meant you went to networking events with your little stack of business cards and you handed them out. And even before that there wasn't a lot of opportunity to market yourself because advertising for a law firm was kind of the mark of sleaze, I guess I want to say like 40 years ago. How has social media changed the landscape for marketing yourself as a lawyer?

Veronica Finkelstein 28:28

Well I'm happy to speak to this I know Marisa has some thoughts as well but it really does strike me that today most lawyers think of themselves as a bit more of a brand than perhaps they did in the past. And so they use social media forums like LinkedIn, Instagram, sometimes even podcasts to get their persona out there. And so it's not a traditional type of marketing. It's not taking out a billboard or an ad on the back of a park bench or on a city bus, but it is marketing. And more and more often people are using social media to connect in every context and that's true of law as well. I have met local counsel who helped me out on cases through LinkedIn. I have had people reach out to me about need of programs through LinkedIn. I've had clients reach out as well. And it's not just about putting yourself out there, but it's about having a recognizable brand and frankly a set of skills that clients can identify that make them attracted to want to reach out to you and talk to you. And if you want no better example of that, look at the fact that LinkedIn has a little section where people can endorse you based on skills. And I have had people reach out to me on LinkedIn based on those endorsements. So I really do think that you're not wrong, Marsi, there used to be this stigma about advertising that it's it's what you do when you're desperate, when you're chasing ambulances, when you don't have a good reputation on your own. I'm not sure that that's true, but that was kind of the perception. And now it's just seen as being the way we move through the world that we all have some sort of presence on social media. Whether you are a TikTok influencer with a huge presence couldn't be me or whether you have a professional LinkedIn page that essentially has your resume and shows your network that's sort of more along the lines where I fall but we all have some degree of engagement with social media. And to me this seems to be the next generation of how we market ourselves as individuals even if firms and organizations perhaps still use some of those more old-fashioned messaging methods.

Marsi Mangan 30:36

Marisa, as a law student then how do you think about building your professional brand?

Marisa Rauscher 30:41

Well I have always been hyper-vigilant about aligning my own mission with my self-branding it has not always been through social media but I have always been extremely interested in following my own internal compass as I have faced ethical decisions as a professional. So as we represent ourselves to the outside world at a time when selective curation of content is possible, I want to be mindful of how I present myself and how I choose to remain private as well. And as a teacher and as a lawyer I see my authenticity and integrity as front and center to my brand I see.

Marsi Mangan 31:26

So what does what does that mean? How will you market yourself?

Marisa Rauscher 31:30

Yeah so Professor Finkelstein referred to LinkedIn and I know this is obvious but wow my classmates and I use LinkedIn every day right it's an essential tool. And I think the rules of engagement on LinkedIn allow us to have this professional space to connect and celebrate. And interestingly for me in my law school journey although podcasts are not pure examples of social media they intersect and interact with social media. And so podcasts as just an example have been a game changer for me. I like learning about different perspectives and connecting to the law in this way as I'm listening and it's still new to me this this world of law and my my brain is literally rewiring mapping if you will so listening to podcasts on current class content helps me connect all the dots and this started for me my first semester in law school this is true I listened to a NITA podcast on depositions and it featured a guest and the guest was Professor Finkelstein once again it's this just really true. And this was brand new to me. It was my first semester and it was a new way of learning for me. And now I have not stopped listening to legal content. But Marsi back to your social media question um because this is this is intersectional I perceive all of these platforms to be um incredible tools and not inherently good or bad but rather robust and allowing for connection and learning and celebrating and understanding. And I believe the trick is creating personal guidelines for ethical use really responding to your own internal compass and I know that will serve a person well as they navigate their career.

Veronica Finkelstein 33:40

I know a really boring podcast that Marisa used to listen to I'm gonna I'm gonna uh embarrass her here. I always record videos for my first year classes so that if students didn't capture everything in terms of taking notes while they were in class, they can listen to a recording afterwards and I tend to do little summaries as well. And Marisa came in and told me that she listened to my recordings like a podcast. That's not the most interesting podcast out there. I'm sure she's found better ones since and certainly the Need a podcast is is far more engaging than that one. But I just did want to uh shout out the fact that people do learn sometimes by listening in a different way than they learn by reading or even by absorbing you know listening in person. And that's one of the things that social media and podcasts can do. They can spread information in different ways.

Marisa Rauscher 34:29

May I share another thought regarding social media absolutely I wanted to share this with you both because my daughter's currently a 1L in Boston and I had a conversation with her about social media and how she is observing she and her friends use it for legal learning. And she shared with me that she really enjoys legal influencers specifically she likes the pieces that are a day in the life of right different legal practices areas of the law and she also likes that they include live QA's so that she can get advice and concrete answers real time. So I thought that was pretty neat.

Marsi Mangan 35:16

So are these uh influencers on TikTok or YouTube? Did she tell you?

Marisa Rauscher 35:22

Yeah TikTok and Instagram

Marsi Mangan 35:24

Okay I was going to ask if either of you follow any Substack writers because that's actually my favorite form of getting legal information

Veronica Finkelstein 35:36

So I was going to say that uh I interestingly I have different parts of my personality that find themselves in different forums. All of my Substack um subscriptions are cooking and food related. All of my legal information comes from podcast and all of my movie information I'm a huge movie buff comes from either podcast or just influencers on YouTube, maybe who don't have a full podcast format and do short form information. But it's it's funny that you mentioned Substack there are so many ways that people communicate with each other today. And good lawyers I think want to take advantage of all of these methods of reaching their audience.

Marsi Mangan 36:17

So do you think that younger lawyers have an inherent advantage in today's digital marketing environment?

Veronica Finkelstein 36:23

Yeah I think they probably do. I mean just as Marisa was talking about what her daughter is doing I thought to myself I wouldn't even know how to become a legal influencer. My life is boring you wouldn't want to follow me but even if I wanted to I wouldn't know how to get started. And think about the network that these people are building now while they're still in law school but even more than the network they're building the skills that they're developing how to market themselves, how to communicate how to make ethical choices about what they share about themselves online, thinking on their feet and answering questions on a live QA. These are all skills that translate to practice. They just translate in a slightly different way and think about how these new lawyers who are going to be entering practice are going to have the skill set that maybe can be used effectively by firms and organizations to augment the skill set that older existing lawyers at the firm or organization already have so Marisa you've been talking about how you listen to legal podcasts.

Marsi Mangan 37:21

Why do you think they're so popular?

Marisa Rauscher 37:23

I think uh legal podcasts are a way to translate complex concepts and information in a palpable receivable invitational form. Right? It's inclusive essentially we all want to be included and we all want access to information that helps us navigate our lives.

Marsi Mangan 37:48

And the law is particularly difficult or t challenging to grasp if you're a lay person. So it's a good way to break down the issues and make all of those terms of art and concepts accessible. Agreed accessibility is key are there any risks when legal issues are simplified for mass audiences? I'll I'll give you this one, Veronica.

Veronica Finkelstein 38:17

Yeah I mean look there's a difference between taking salacious enjoyment in an unfolding legal case there are certainly podcasts that do that and podcasts that aim to be entertaining and educate at the same time. And so I do fear that some of the more popular podcasts give a bit of a skewed view of the law when they don't try to have that educational focus as well, when they're purely about entertainment. But luckily there are some terrific, terrific podcasts that do both very, very effectively. And that's one of the reasons that I was inspired to take my criminal procedure course this semester and turn it into a podcasting class to help students not only learn the substantive content, to learn about all of the legal rules and constitutional doctrines that apply in criminal cases, but also to teach them the material in a way that they could turn around and explain it to a non-lawyer in a podcast that makes it entertaining and engaging but also understandable because frankly you know ulterior motive here if they understand it well, they're going to understand it on the bar exam and in practice. And if it entertains them they're going to want to stick with it. And I would love to turn out the next generation of great lawyers who find their career path and are really inspired by something that they learn in law school. So certainly there's a risk in making things a little too pop culture, a little too entertainment only, but I think if done well, legal podcasts can also be very educational.

Marsi Mangan 39:46

So when you set about designing the course what skills did you intend for your students to gain beyond just the the legal knowledge you've mentioned.

Veronica Finkelstein 39:56

I really wanted them to learn how to present themselves as a brand to think about who they are where they see themselves in their career to find an angle on criminal procedure that interests them and makes them want to learn more and want to do more. And then to take that and break it down into useful skills like oral advocacy skills, like organizational skills, being able to write and put together a podcast treatment those are very similar organizational skills that you would need to put together and write a motion um skills having to do with issue choice and selection and research. They're not just going to wake up one day and put these podcasts together. They've got to do some research they've got to find cases that they can use to talk about and illustrate the rule. And that's the same sort of research skills that they would put to use if they had to write a brief or if they had to write a motion. So as I mentioned earlier I see a thread that runs through a lot of these different skills there there are commonalities between what you need to be a great trial lawyer or what you need to be a great litigator in the pretrial process. And I think podcasting has a lot of those same skills running through it and then some because it also has all of those soft skills working in teams, cooperation, being able to make something engaging look you may need to go woo a client and do a dog and pony show. You've got to find a way to make a pitch that's engaging right off the bat and that keeps people listening. These are all the same skills they just come back and forth through your life in different settings as a litigator that's so interesting.

Marsi Mangan 41:33

You make it sound like um having a podcast is a microcosm of the litigator's law practice.

Veronica Finkelstein 41:43

Yeah I think it can be I mean doesn't a podcast start with an opening statement Marsi you gave a great one at the beginning of this podcast. Doesn't it end with a good catchy hook that makes people want to come back and hear more that's what a good closing argument should do. Tie a bow on today's discussion but leave you wanting to think about me as you go back and deliberate or think about my client as you go back and deliberate. And Marsi, aren't you asking questions that are open-ended questions just like somebody would ask on a direct examination at trial? These skills are not so different. And if this is a fun, engaging way to get students to want to practice these skills and use these skills and learn something at the same time and maybe teach somebody else when they listen to the podcast, that seems to me to be a win-win-win.

Marsi Mangan 42:32

So Marisa, you actually are the student with the podcast. Is it fun? Is it engaging? Is it all the things that Professor Finkelstein is saying it is

Marisa Rauscher 42:41

It absolutely is and I have a message for Professor Finkelstein challenge accepted. I uh I love the idea of packaging and sequencing and storytelling and pacing as the tools for allowing people to connect and learn more about a topic. And in our class we are doing this fundamental legal concepts that have been highly influenced by years of case law and legislative initiatives what a privilege it is to create and by way of creation invite people into the law. That's really exciting. So yes 100% this is exciting and engaging and challenging um and my goal is to make information digestible right and um even to look to be persuasive at times because uh one of the things I most have enjoyed about my career and now the world of law is that I get to have voice connected to issues that I feel passionately about.

Marsi Mangan 43:53

Has working on the podcast changed how you think about advocacy it has

Marisa Rauscher 44:00

In the sense that I am now I I mentioned this idea of mapping previously. My wiring is coming together. And so I'm starting to see how these pieces to come together to have effective advocacy. And after listening to Professor Schwinkelstein's um way of lining up the podcast to the procedures of law, I'm I'm like a true believer right now. True believer.

Marsi Mangan 44:33

Well, and she's very proud of you. I don't know if you can see her right now, but uh I'm looking at her and she is just beaming hearing you talk about how much you're learning and changing your life.

Veronica Finkelstein 44:44

The future's in good hands. I know it.

Marsi Mangan 44:47

I think so.

Marisa Rauscher 44:48

I am very grateful.

Marsi Mangan 44:49

So Marisa, do you have any final thoughts about the biggest takeaway from taking this course and devising your own podcast about the law?

Marisa Rauscher 44:59

Well, I think I alluded to this, but great minds and well-intentioned people have tried to establish rules to play by that serve all in a just fashion. And I want to be in that game. I really do. I want to know the law, I want to use the law for good, and I also want to cultivate the soft and hard skills of lawyering so that my advocacy rests on a strong foundation of excellence. That's the goal. No more, do more.

Marsi Mangan 45:29

Well, I think you've got a brilliant future ahead of you. It's been really great to talk to you and to meet you. And thank you so much to uh Professor Veronica Finkelstein for facilitating this chat. It's been great. My pleasure. Thank you. So listeners know that I love hearing about what people are watching on TV or move movies that they've recently liked. And today we are recording this the day after the Oscars, which I know Veronica is pretty much like your Super Bowl. So what are your thoughts? Movies, Oscars, whatnot.

Veronica Finkelstein 46:07

I'm very happy with the outcome of the Oscars. I I didn't know when this was gonna air, and I didn't know if you were gonna mention it. So I was maybe gonna call one battle after another as best picture, and everyone would think I was psychic. But um, that was it was a great year for film, and a lot of the ones that I really enjoyed ended up taking home a trophy, so I can't complain. I'm gonna shout out a small movie that I saw recently that should be streaming by the time this podcast is live, that got some awards in Britain where it was made and um only recently came out in the United States. So it was not eligible for awards in the United States this year. It's a movie called Pillion, both written and directed by Harry Lighton. It is a great first directorial debut. It is a small film about relationships, a bit of an unconventional relationship in some ways, but frankly also a bit of a conventional relationship in a lot of ways as well. And man, I really love a writer-director, and I really appreciate an original story from a writer-director, but I have to give this writer-director credit. He has his arms around the material so well, and I really appreciate that. So I'll shout out a small film this time. Usually when I'm on the podcast, I'm picking my Oscar picks, but this time I'll start with a small, more independent film that hopefully everyone will check out.

Marsi Mangan 47:26

And that was Pillion, right? Pillion, yes, a British film. Great. And Marisa, what about you?

Marisa Rauscher 47:33

I think I'll do a shout out to a show. Uh since I've been working full-time and in law school, I if I ever get a little time, I like to escape. I like to, because a lot of, as I shared, I do listen to a lot of legal content when I'm when I'm not at work or in classes. And so when I'm really trying to escape, um, I go to the TV and I uh just recently streamed Normal People based on a book by Sally Rooney, and it featured Daisy Edgar Jones and Paul Mezcal. I love the both of them. Um, but I want to plug this for those among us who really enjoy the coming of age stories of adolescence and young adulthood. That is a favorite of mine, having been a person who has taught teens and young adults my whole life. And so this is a beautiful story of two fascinating characters set in Ireland, and I I'd love people to check it out.

Marsi Mangan 48:37

Well, the Irish Girl in me uh has added it to her list. Thank you for the recommendation, both of you.

Veronica Finkelstein 48:43

It was a good day last night for Irish girls at the Academy Awards. Jesse Buckley won Best Actress. First Irish woman to win that award.

Marsi Mangan 48:51

Fantastic. All right. Well, thank you both so much for proposing this interesting topic and then coming on board to talk to me about it. I think that you've made a lot of interesting recommendations that I hope people take away and given them a lot of new ways to think about law practice.

Veronica Finkelstein 49:11

Thanks, Marsi.

Marisa Rauscher 49:13

Thanks, Marsi.

Marsi Mangan 49:14

Thank you. I always say please check the show notes for more information. And today you really should. I asked Veronica and Marisa for their favorite social media accounts for both law and legal education content. I put them, along with the links, into a PDF that you can download for free from the show notes. As you heard Marisa mention in passing, her daughter Delaney is a 1L right now. It is such fun that they're mother and daughter law students. Delaney has shared her favorite TikTok accounts with us as well. So, one way or another, you are bound to find something enriching in these accounts to keep your own beginners' mind in gear. If you enjoyed this special episode, and I hope you did, please share it with a workfriend, give our LinkedIn podcast post a thumbs up, or leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you'd like, you can also drop us a quick email at onair at NITA.org. These actions boost our visibility so that other trial lawyers can listen in on our conversations and cultivate their own beginners' mind. Thank you so much for listening. I will be back again next month with a new episode about refreshing recollection and impeachment. It's a new topic for the podcast and one you will not want to miss. Until then, we wish you the very best of luck in your depositions, motions, and trials. Happy lawyering! May the Record Reflect is a NITA Studio 71 production. NITA, we are advocacy enhanced, mentorship reimagined. Welcome to the community.