79. Ten Essential Tips for the Successful Trial Lawyer, with Hon. Sal Mungia

Washington State Supreme Court Justice Sal Mungia shares essential tips for effective trial advocacy, emphasizing credibility, storytelling, and clear communication with jurors. He highlights the importance of authenticity, professionalism, and preparation—from mastering the rules of evidence to building rapport without relying on notes. Blending practical guidance with personal insight, Justice Mungia encourages trial lawyers to practice with integrity, show grace, and ultimately find purpose and enjoyment in their work.

Topics
4:40 Never lose your credibility with the jury or judge
6:59 Tell a compelling, human-centered story
9:33 Speak plainly—avoid legalese and connect clearly
12:32 Professionalism matters—don’t be a jerk
15:39 Show grace, even in high-pressure litigation
19:26 Build rapport—don’t read from notes
21:46 Play by the rules—integrity defines success
23:24 Know the rules of evidence and procedure
25:41 Be yourself—authenticity resonates with juries
27:19 Have fun—find purpose and energy in trial work
28:59 Gaining trial experience
32:42 Signoff question

Quote
“Every time that I tried a case, I was thinking, ‘This is the best thing ever!’ I’m not kidding. ‘I am just eating this thing up. I’m loving this. This is my chance to be creative, to be able to tell my story, to represent my client, to use my wits to figure out whether I should object. If I do object, how do I make that argument? How do I use my exhibits?’ It’s just so much fun. And it’s so nerve-wracking when you’re waiting for the jury, right? That’s when it’s just ‘argh!’ tension-wise. But I always thought, “This was great. I can’t think of anything that I’d rather do.’” Hon. Sal Mungia

Resources
Hon. Sal Mungia (LinkedIn)
Building Trial Skills and Deposition Skills: Seattle (programs)
The Trial of the Chicago 7 (film)
May the Record Reflect on YouTube (link)

Transcript

Marsi Mangan 0:06

On today's episode of May the Record Reflect.

Justice Sal Mangia 0:11

And this is something I was told when I was a very new attorney. And that is, don't read from notes. Don't read your presentations. I had an older uh law partner who said, Sal, you know what? Don't use your notes. You're gonna forget some stuff that you want to say. They're gonna be on your notes and you're gonna forget them. You're gonna more than make up with that, with the rapport that you make with your audience. And he was so right. And there's always things I forget. I'm saying, shoot, I forgot to say that. That's okay. It's more important to make that connection with your audience. It's more important to be able to look at the jury and talk to them about what's going on. And it's coming from your heart. You know, there's no way that if you ever fell in love with someone and you want to tell them you love them for the first time, you would pull out a piece of paper and say, I love you, right? You're not gonna do that because what's that gonna mean to the person hearing that? They're just empty words. So, yeah, speak from your heart. Uh, you know your case, you know these facts well enough, trust me.

Marsi Mangan 1:19

That was Justice Sal Mangia, and this is May the Record Reflect. Hello and welcome to the monthly podcast of the National Institute for Trial Advocacy. I'm your host, Marsi Mangan, and in today's episode, I'm excited to introduce you to Justice Sal Mangia. He is one of the newest justices on the Washington State Supreme Court. And funnily enough, this is not his first time in service to the state Supreme Court. After graduating from Georgetown University Law Center, Justice Mangia clerked for a Washington State Supreme Court Justice, much like himself, which he then followed up with by clerking for a federal district court judge, and then he joined the Tacoma law firm of Gordon Thomas Honeywell. During his 38 years with Gordon Thomas Honeywell, his practice consisted of complex civil trial and appellate work, including cases regarding general aviation air crashes, insurance coverage and bad faith claims, medical negligence and wrongful death claims, and commercial disputes. Justice Mangia also litigated constitutional law issues, including First Amendment freedom of speech, separation of church and state, and commercial and spending clause disputes. I am delighted Justice Mangia squared away a little time off from the bench to share with us the 10 essential things he would like you to remember about being a trial lawyer. Here's our interview. Justice Sal Mangia, I am so glad to have you on.

Justice Sal Mangia 3:17

Marsi, I am so glad to be here. And it's just a little weird you're going to call me Justice, even though you have always called me Sal throughout the year. So I know it's going to be a little weird for you, but I guess we'll we'll work with it.

Marsi Mangan 3:28

Well, you know, I've known you since before Nita even had this podcast. And actually, we met not long after I moved here to Seattle 13 years ago. And I've always looked forward to seeing you at the Seattle trial program. So it's very much a treat to have you here with me today.

Justice Sal Mangia 3:44

Well, Marsi, you're the best.

Marsi Mangan 3:45

No, you are.

Justice Sal Mangia 3:46

No, you are.

Marsi Mangan 3:48

So last year at the Seattle trial program, I sat in on a plenary session that you ran as the program co-director. And it was a list of your top essential tips that you think every trial lawyer should know. And as I was listening, I thought, hmm, you know, I think this would make a really fun episode for the podcast. And I'm really delighted that you agree. So you've got 10 essential tips for trial that you want to share with our listeners today. Shall we begin?

Justice Sal Mangia 4:18

Right. And just to maybe just, you know, you remember that when I did it for our program, I think there was 25.

Marsi Mangan 4:25

Yeah.

Justice Sal Mangia 4:25

And I'm not sure whether they're essential. You know, people, you can listen to them if they make sense, great. Um, if they don't make sense, understood as well. But yes, so this is a mini-version of what the longer version would be.

Marsi Mangan 4:38

Okay, let's start with number one then.

Justice Sal Mangia 4:39

Number one. And as I go through this, let me just tell you, it's not gonna be one of the tips, but uh as uh one of the things I do talk about uh during the program is the concept of recency and privacy. So people tend to remember what you say first and what you say last. So keep that in mind because I'm gonna start off with I think is the most important thing, and I'm gonna end with what I think is probably the most important thing. Not that the others aren't important, but um using the recency primacy model. So the first one is never lose your credibility, right? Never lose your credibility either with the jury or the judge. This whole trial game is a matter of trust. And if you start losing your credibility, you know, the jury isn't gonna trust you. And it's really hard for the jury because they're gonna be hearing from two different sides. Usually the case, um, it's gonna be presented by two really good lawyers, and the jury's gonna be sitting in that box wondering, you know, who do I believe? Who makes the most sense? So, whatever you do, don't lose your credibility. And I've seen that done at times.

Marsi Mangan 5:46

So, how might you lose your credibility? Can you give some examples? Sure.

Justice Sal Mangia 5:50

Uh, one is saying things that just don't make sense. I mean, it almost sounds like, oh, now you're making an argument like a lawyer would make. In other words, you know, you're stretching the truth, you're stretching reality, you're stretching my sense of how the world operates. And you always got to sit back. I always tell uh people, you know, put yourself in the jury box, put yourself there and listen to what you're saying. Um, if you start making arguments that you're just thinking, boy, if you told anybody else, they'd be like rolling their eyes or shaking their heads at you. Um, that's what you have to worry about. Um, you know, a good way of checking this, and what we did at my firm, I was in private practice for 38 years, we do mock juries, right? Just just to find out whether what are the arguments that resonated with them, what did, because again, it's just what is the credibility? What's what is credible? What credible just means what is believable. And so you don't want to lose that credibility because you don't want to lose that trust.

Marsi Mangan 6:53

Right. Okay, so that was the first essential tip. What is number two?

Justice Sal Mangia 6:59

Two is just right up there with number one. Okay, and this is what a lot of trial lawyers, especially newer trial lawyers, don't know. It's what every good trial lawyer does know, is that you are telling a story. Not a made-up story, uh, it is a true story, but it's a story nonetheless. That's how people really learn. That's how we understand how the world operates. It's through stories. You know, when you think of the great storytellers of all time, you know, Aesop's Fables, or, you know, even I'm not gonna put in any religion in this, but you know, you've got some great stories in the Bible, just the way that they're presented. Uh, that's the way we teach. And so that's the way you got to think about how you're gonna present to the jury your story of what happened here. Um, so it's not, you know, here are the elements A, B, and C. This is what the these are what the facts are gonna show, A, B, and C, and therefore our side wins. No. You know, the story is, you know, my client was harmed, my client was hurt, the doctor was incompetent, or the doctor did everything she could to save this life. Are you kidding me? Uh, she went out of her way, and this is how she did it. It's a story. People think more with their guts when they're deciding these issues than with their heads. Um, I always give this example, one of the most famous TV shows, and certainly it was the number one rated TV show for like over a decade, and that was 60 Minutes. And I'm not talking number one rated news TV show, I'm talking number one rated show in the country of all TV shows. And the originator of 60 Minutes, and of course, his name escapes me right now, but told the three original anchors, here's what I want you to do. Tell me a story, and that is so powerful, and that's what it is. You watch 60 minutes, you watch any good story trial teller, you know, it's at the very beginning, there's a hook right there, and you're engaged with that story. And hearing that story, you're thinking, yes, this person, at least in the context of a trial, this person should win, or this company should win, or this entity should win because of what the story tells you. And then, of course, you got to present the facts to support that story, but it's a story. And unless you understand that, you're gonna be losing so much of your persuasive abilities.

Marsi Mangan 9:21

So, number four, what is your fourth tip?

Speaker 2 9:25

Oh, we could go to number four, but I think maybe we should go to number three first. I think you were just testing me to see whether I was paying attention.

Marsi Mangan 9:32

Yeah.

Justice Sal Mangia 9:32

Oh, I hope I'm the story. That's the story. Okay, good job, Marsi. Uh, number three is speak English. Speak English, speak English, you know, lawyers start talking, and uh, I see it in legal writing all the time. And I I used to tell my associates at the firm, and I have to tell the law clerks if I see you using legalese, um, you get one free pass, but other than that, you're gonna be buying me a latte, you know, here with, here with, you know, here to for. I said, Do you use that in usual language? No, you don't. So that's how you want to speak, that's how you want to write. Um, but definitely when you're talking to a jury, you want to speak, if you will, English. And actually, the level of English you're gonna be using about 10th grade level. So you're not talking down, you're not talking up to the jury. It's about a 10th grade level of English. Um, so just talk like you would normally talk because you're a storyteller, you're there just to uh tell them that story. And what's interesting, uh I think it was the Stanford Law Review uh wrote this article about 30 years ago. It's the 50 most misunderstood words uh by a jury. So I'm gonna go over just a few of these right now with the listeners here, because I'm sure that the lawyers who are listening to this have used these words before a jury, because I know I have. Uh the number one most misunderstood word is prior. Prior. People don't understand what prior means. To subsequent, right? So instead of saying prior and subsequent, can't we just say before and after? Yeah. Marsi, prior to the time that you logged on, what did you know? You know, what did you do before you logged on? That's how we speak.

Marsi Mangan 11:14

Yeah. I I think that uh that also harkens back to point number one, which is maintain your credibility. Don't do things to lose it. And if you start talking over people's heads, they're gonna tune out and not listen to you, and there goes your credibility.

Justice Sal Mangia 11:29

Exactly, exactly. A lot of these when we're talking about goes to number one, which number one and number two kind of go hint and then you need to be credible, then you have to have a great story. But you know, using words that people understand, let me just I'll give you just a few more. The number third one is relevant, fourth is relative, number five is magnitude, number six is erroneous. I mean, these are words that you and I use all the time, right? Sure. These are not the words that your average jury is going to understand. So it's that, you know, it's a great magnitude. No, it's a lot of, you know, you ever hear people say, oh man, they just eviscerated that argument. No, you you gutted that argument. You know, talk just like you would at your local bar. Well, maybe those of you who go to local bars, I know what that sounds like is I go to my local bar and talk to real people. Uh yeah, so speak English so that people can understand what your story is.

Marsi Mangan 12:23

Okay. So now are we on four? Is my counting right?

Justice Sal Mangia 12:27

We're on four now.

Marsi Mangan 12:28

Okay, okay, okay. All right, let's hear it.

Justice Sal Mangia 12:31

And you know, these tips are not just to be uh to be a better trial lawyer, but these tips are to be a better lawyer and in my view, a better person. So just keep that in mind. I mix some of these up as I told you before. Uh I have 25 that I I uh tell out or need a program in Seattle. But uh number four is really important. And I and I point it out because I just think too many lawyers, more than there should be, let's put it that way. There are more lawyers who do this. I'm in suspense. Tell us, and that is don't be a jerk.

Marsi Mangan 13:05

That's a good one.

Justice Sal Mangia 13:06

Okay, don't be a jerk. Oh man, you know, lawyers have reputations of being jerks. Uh people think you have to do it, and I understand, especially when you're uh a newer practicing attorney, you know, you think you've got to be aggressive, you think that you've got to be harsh. Um older attorneys are giving you a bad time, and you think that's the way to practice. Um it isn't. Yeah, but if you and I'll get to some of these, if you you know what to do, you don't have to be a jerk. Um and uh if anything, kind of go the other way, which gets me to point five, which will be uh in a in a second here. Um but I'm not gonna tell you what point five is yet. And I know that's hard, but I really I really do want to get this message across now. Um especially the newer attorneys out there, but older attorneys as well. Take a look at yourself. Yeah, you can be a jerk, but if you're good enough, if you're really a good trial lawyer, you are you're going to be able to win without being a jerk now.

Marsi Mangan 14:11

Absolutely.

Justice Sal Mangia 14:12

So that's and be a better person too, okay? Be a better person. Life is too short.

Marsi Mangan 14:18

Well, I I also think that it's uncomfortable to be the witness to somebody being a jerk. And so jurors don't like that.

Justice Sal Mangia 14:26

Correct. And in fact, it's it's funny, just a minute, just interject this in, kind of squeeze it in. Believe it or not, in November I was lucky enough to serve on a jury.

Marsi Mangan 14:36

Huh? How does that happen?

Justice Sal Mangia 14:39

Oh man, that's a time for another story, Marsi. We don't have time today. I know that on these 10 tips. Um, but someday, especially when you and I get together, I'll I'll tell you. But uh, I was fortunate enough to be able to not to be excluded from serving on a jury.

Marsi Mangan 14:53

All right, it's a date. So what was that experience like, just briefly as a juror?

Justice Sal Mangia 15:00

Uh as a juror. So mine was a little weird, right? Because she was a former lawyer, now a judge. Uh but seeing how the lawyers did not know enough of the practice rules that you really should know, uh, seeing how they repeated themselves way too much. I mean, I'm just thinking, okay, I got it. I got it. I am not an idiot. And this is not just me. The social studies show that that's usually one of the top complaints of jurors is that they complain that attorneys tend to be repetitive.

Marsi Mangan 15:30

So those are a few extra little bonus tips that you just snuck in there. Yeah.

Justice Sal Mangia 15:34

Well, bonus tips. That's right. That's right.

Marsi Mangan 15:36

All right. Should we move on to number five?

Justice Sal Mangia 15:39

We should. So this is related to number four. Show some grace. All right. And what I mean by grace, just I'll remind people out there what grace means. Doesn't mean that you can walk gracefully, uh, it doesn't mean that you can sing gracefully. Showing grace is giving something to someone that they don't deserve. Or if you're receiving grace, you are receiving something from someone that you don't deserve. Now, especially in this highly competitive profession that we find ourselves in where if you're not winning, let me tell you, you're not going to survive in this practice very long. Everybody knows it's a zero-sum game, you have to win. So there's a huge pressure on you to win. So, like maybe number four and five are tied together. So you you have a tendency to be a jerk, and there are some people who are going to succumb to uh doing not just jerky things, but unethical things. Why I'm saying this is because you're going to suspect that the other side, their motives for doing something, is because they're doing something unethically or just to be a jerk. But there may be another reason that they're doing that you have no idea about.

Marsi Mangan 16:54

And that's where the grace comes in.

Justice Sal Mangia 16:56

Correct. Right? I mean, you have no idea what's going on in someone's life. So my thing is people would ask me certain things, especially early on, uh, if I'm on the plaintiff side, I always file my uh complaint, but with the complaint goes my first set of discovery. I want to have that first leverage over my opposing counsel because I know it's gonna happen, usually because you get very limited time to respond. I'll get a used to be in the old days a phone call now, more days, uh, more times is just an email saying, you know, Sal can have extra time to answer the first set of discovery, can have an extra 30 days or something. So that's how you show some grace. Yeah, the rules are yeah, you have 40 days to respond. I want them within 40 days. Yeah, that's a jerk, and there's no reason for doing that. You show some grace and say, of course, you know, if you need an extra 30 days, you got them. And I always did that. Because no one cares at the beginning, right? Or especially if they want an extra week. It's not like I'm gonna read those things the day they come in. Um, there are times when it prejudices your client, you gotta say, you know, as much as I'd like to, I can't, and here's why. But there are plenty of times that you can give people grace. I remember we had this case with uh one of my newer partners where every time we had a discovery dispute in Washington State, you have a what's called a Rule 26i conference, you have to talk with the other uh attorney about the discovery dispute. And then if you can't resolve it, if you're the moving party and note up a motion. Every time they could not resolve, which is a lot of times, before he could even note up his motion, she would send him a notice of unavailability for like the next three weeks. So he couldn't note up the motion, and he would come complaining to me, say, Sal, this is ridiculous. I think we should go to. I said, No, Rob, you know what? You don't know what's going on with your life. We'll get the information sooner or later. We're still early enough. And like she after the third time of her doing this, he was just going bonkers. I said, We're gonna win in the end. Trust me, we're gonna win in the end. Our goal is to win, right?

Marsi Mangan 18:55

Did you win in the end?

Justice Sal Mangia 18:57

Yes, actually, yeah, it settled and they paid us what we wanted on the case. So yes, yeah. No, my my thing is I always knew I was gonna win, right? That's I knew I was gonna win. You can play games with me, I'll let you play those games because I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. But you know what? The game's gonna end sometime, and at that time, I'm gonna get what I want.

Marsi Mangan 19:20

All right, that's a that's a good tip for all of us. How about number six?

Justice Sal Mangia 19:25

Number six. So this is one thing that uh we really stress it, Nita. Um and this is something I was told uh when I was a very new attorney, and that is don't read from notes, don't read your presentations. Uh, had an older uh law partner who said, Sal, you know what? Don't use your notes, and you're gonna forget some stuff that you want to say. They're gonna be on your notes and you're gonna forget them. You're gonna more than make up with that, with the rapport that you make with your audience. And he was so right because every time I I and I I don't like using notes. There are kind of cheater ways you can do that by having diagrams, having charts that kind of keep you on point, but never reading from notes. And there's always things I forget. I'm saying, shoot, I forgot to say that. That's okay. It's more important to make that connection with your audience, it's more important to be able to look at the jury and talk to them about what's going on. And it's coming from your heart. So it goes back to that first point, your credibility, right? They're seeing me. I'm not reading something from a piece of paper. I'm looking at them and I'm telling them, you know, this story, if it's opening or closing argument. Um, if I'm examining my witness, I'm looking at the witness and I'm looking at the jury. If I'm cross-examining, I'm just looking at the witness. I'm not tend to look at the jury on that. I want the witness just looking at me. Um, but again, the build-up that report, and you can't do that. You can't do that if you're reading. You know, there's no way that if you ever fell in love with someone and you want to tell them you love them for the first time, you would pull out a piece of paper and say, I love you, right? You're not gonna do that because what's that gonna mean to the person hearing that? They're just empty words. So, yeah, speak from your heart. Um, you know your case, you know these facts well enough, trust me. Um, you know that opening statement well enough. Yeah, you can give it. You're gonna forget some stuff, yeah. You're gonna make a bigger impact for the jury, though.

Marsi Mangan 21:22

Well, I think that's a good reminder that you do know your case. You know it inside and out, and up one side and down the other. And yeah, you might forget a few things, but nobody knows your case as well as you do. And you just have to trust that you'll hit all the most important things.

Justice Sal Mangia 21:39

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Marsi Mangan 21:41

Okay, so in no particular order, tip number seven.

Justice Sal Mangia 21:45

Oh, and this goes back to kind of showing some grace, don't be a jerk. Uh, you can do that if you do go by number seven, which is and kind of number seven and eight. Oh, I should have I should have made this into one, but I'm not. Seven is played by the rule. So when my kids when my kids were growing up, either it's a blessing for them or a curse for them, but they grew up in a very competitive family. We played games all the time, and I never let up on my kids. Um and so what that meant was the kids, in order to survive, had to play by the rules because they knew that if they weren't playing by the rules, I would tell them it doesn't count if you win. If you cheat, that's not winning. And I really just they always knew that they had to play by the rules. I'm thinking the same way with trials. If you have the cheat, you're not winning. You're not good enough. Uh that's what you're telling yourself. You're not good enough to win by playing by the rules. Um, and I'm I'm saying you are good enough. You know, it's a lot of work and it's tough. And there's no guarantee, even if you do all this stuff, shoot, everybody knows that they've lost trials that you thought you're gonna win and that you should have won. That's the nature of trials. That's the that's the risk factor of having those 12 people decide your case. But I had enough confidence in myself saying I'm good enough, I can play by the rules, and I believe I'm gonna um I'm gonna win. So it doesn't count everybody out there if you cheat and win.

Marsi Mangan 23:21

All right. Essential tip number eight.

Justice Sal Mangia 23:24

So this one goes with number seven is you got to know the rules. Hard to play by the rules if you don't know the rules. Uh, you asked me uh, you know, how it's like being on the jury, and I saw that some lawyers didn't know some what I would think is some basic uh trial elements, so how to refresh the memory of a witness and saw them fumbling around. It's funny because the the trial judge, he and I have been friends for over 20 years. And after the trial got over, he said, Sal, you got a couple of minutes? And said, sure stand. So I went back to his chambers and and uh he said, Well, what do you think? I said, Well, you know, there were times I was being driven crazy. He says, Yeah, that's my life, you know. I just seeing lawyers who don't know what to do, and I'm trying to help. I said, Yeah, I saw that actually you were trying to do that. Um, you've got to know the fundamental rules, right? You've just got to. That's part of your craft. Uh, if you don't know how to introduce a piece of evidence, um, you aren't serving your your client well. Uh, if you don't know the rules of hearsay and the exceptions, you are not serving your client well because hearsay is one of the major uh objections that you'd be able to either make or respond to. So you have to know. You have to know the rules.

Marsi Mangan 24:32

Well, it's kind of funny to hear you talk about how you had this little informal confab with a fellow judge, and you both arrived at the conclusion that so many people don't know what they're doing in the courtroom, because that's actually how Nita came about back in the early 70s. A bunch of judges sat around this kitchen table kind of complaining about how, God, these trial lawyers don't know what they're doing. And they came up with um case files and and the NITA method and taking the show on the road.

Justice Sal Mangia 25:02

Well, you know, it it's from the 70s, even back then, being able to get jury trial experience is very difficult. It has only gotten more difficult as the years have passed. So it's hard getting in the courtroom, Marsi. So unless you get in and and practice this stuff or even know what to do, or you have a good mentor, you know, that that's why you see this deficiency. Um it is tough.

Marsi Mangan 25:26

Yeah. All right. Well, we're getting close to the end. We're at number nine, but um, after we get through number 10, I want to talk about some of the ways that you can get trial experience. But let's get to number nine first.

Justice Sal Mangia 25:41

Number nine, be yourself. It's that old kind of cliche, be yourself, because that's the only person you can be, right? But you know, I've seen so many people, so they see like a really great trawler, somebody, a great advocate in court, and they're trying to be like that person. But you're not that person, you're you, right? I mean, I I know I'm me. I'm a little at times over the top, right? I'm a little emotional. Um, I tend to uh that's true use a uh a little bit of energy in my presentations, but that's me. Uh that's me. That's you know, if that's not you, don't try to do that, you know, because that's not you. But just some great lawyers are just very more even keeled, more matter-of-fact, soft spoken, and it works for them. You've got to know the basic techniques you have to know uh how to be, if you will, a storyteller. All those techniques are the same, but how they're told are completely different. You know, I hate to show my age, but you know, two great comedians, Bob Newhart, had a completely different style than let's say Chris Rock. They're both hilarious, right? And and so they're both practicing their craft of comedy, but they're being themselves. And that's the same thing with trial lawyers. And I can't stress that enough. You've got to be yourself. Figure out how these tools work within your personality and then use them. But don't try to be somebody that you that you're not.

Marsi Mangan 27:11

Yeah, and that's hard to sustain, also. Okay, number 10, the last essential trial tip.

Justice Sal Mangia 27:18

Which is my theory in life, right? Is number 10, have fun. Oh my gosh, if this, you know, if this is not fun for you, maybe you should not be a trial lawyer. I'm not kidding. And I understand it's gonna be nerve-wracking. Yeah, there's gonna be so much pressure uh on you, but at the end of the day, you've got to have fun doing this. And I'm not telling you, Marsi, every time that I tried a case, I just when I was in trial, I was thinking this is the best thing ever. I'm not kidding. I am just eating this thing up. I'm loving this. This is my chance to be creative, to be able to tell my story, to represent my client, to use my wits to figure out uh, you know, whether I should object. If I do object, you know, how do I make that argument? Uh, how do I use my exhibits? It's just so much fun. And it's so nerve-wracking when you're waiting for the jury, right? That's when it's just uh tension-wise. But I always thought this was great. Um, I can't think of anything that I'd rather do. Now, having said that, I've I've joined the bench, right? But um that's the to try to hopefully uh make more of a difference for our legal community and the society. But having fun, I'm still having fun, and that's the way life should be. You gotta get things done, but you should have fun.

Marsi Mangan 28:33

Yeah, agreed. I love that. And I've heard from so many trial attorneys who say I could never ever do transactional work. I would die of boredom.

Justice Sal Mangia 28:45

Yeah, I'd be right up there with them.

Marsi Mangan 28:47

All right, so we've gotten through our 10 trial tips, and you said that you actually have 15-ish more. How can listeners hear the rest of those trial tips?

Justice Sal Mangia 28:59

Hmm, let me think. Let me oh, just came to me. They could come out to Seattle in August when we have our trial skills program. Oh, gee, why didn't I think of that before?

Marsi Mangan 29:11

What a great idea. You know, I have to say that as a resident of Seattle, something that people don't realize is that Seattle is actually the very best place in America to be in the summertime. I was gonna say not just not just learn learning trial skills, but also just being here in the summertime. Absolutely gorgeous.

Justice Sal Mangia 29:30

There's no better place. I I have to say an amen to that, Marsi. As you and I both know, August in Seattle is just gorgeous. Um, so you know, it's not the summer heat, it's not the humidity that you get face on the East Coast. Um, it's just pure paradise in August.

Marsi Mangan 29:50

Yeah, you can walk to your car without being cremated on the sidewalk. You can actually go take a run and a hike at three o'clock in the afternoon and not die of heat stroke. And it's dark, green, lush vegetation, flowers are in bloom, sparkling waterfronts, everything you want, and more. And the more is the Seattle trial program. What are some of the special things that you have at the trial program that you might not find at other NITA trial programs?

Justice Sal Mangia 30:20

Well, I'm not sure if other NITA programs do this or not. I know at least some do, but you know, uh, we're gonna have actual jurors in. So on the last day of course, uh, we do mock trials, and this year we're gonna have jurors in there to deliberate. So that's gonna be one. Two, usually on trial date, uh, we have actual judges being the judges, so not just uh lawyers who are great instructors who can be great judges, but we have people from the bench doing that. Three, we have uh a judge, again, a longtime friend of mine, and uh King County Superior Court, which is in Seattle, um, that uh Judge Keaton holds court on the pretrial matters, and he does such a great job of it. I mean, we're all in there together, people are making their motions. Um, he does a great job, and we always get great feedback about that. Four, we're gonna have uh a speaker, and of course, you know her name, and then I can't remember her name, who's Lori Gilbertson. Lori Gilbertson, who is has expertise in how to do oral presentations, uh, to how to become a better public speaker, how to become a better trial speaker. Uh, and she teaches throughout the country. So we've already reserved her months in advance to come out to Seattle. Um, and then finally, fifth, which may be different, we're gonna have an ethics credit, and hopefully it's gonna be a diversity credit for those Washington lawyers who need a diversity credit that's pending approval or will be pending approval, uh one-hour ethics credit um during our program. So, in addition to learning the rules, learning how to do an opening, closing cross-examination, how to get uh a piece of evidence into evidence, you're gonna be also getting these other extras as well.

Marsi Mangan 32:04

So if you are interested in coming to hang out with uh Justice Sal Mangia and his co-program director, Nick Williams, who is a wonderful trial attorney in St. Louis, check out the show notes. There's a link in there, register, and we'll see you there. Uh Sal, Justice Mangia. Before we sign off and we let you get back to doing the people's work for the state, the great state of Washington, final question. What have you been watching on TV or in the movies lately?

Justice Sal Mangia 32:42

There was this movie I just love. Uh oh gosh. You did only because my I I can't think of titles anymore, but it was the trial of the Chicago Seven. That's what it did. I think it was the movie title.

Marsi Mangan 32:58

Oh, I put you on the hot seats.

Justice Sal Mangia 33:00

You know, Abby Hoffman, um and uh but it was the seven defendants during the 1968 uh protests at the Democratic Convention. What a great movie. Uh it just it moved my soul because again, people are fighting against injustice, putting themselves out there, putting their physical uh safety at risk, um, taking on popular stances to promote justice.

Marsi Mangan 33:29

All right. Well, that's a great place to end. I'll leave the link for that in the show notes too. Thank you so much for joining me. This was a really fun episode, and it's always a delight to see you.

Justice Sal Mangia 33:41

Oh, Marci, so much fun with you.

Marsi Mangan 33:47

May the record reflect can now be heard on YouTube. Now, do we have a Cushu recording studio where you get to watch me on video, sitting face to face with the latest guest as we discuss all things trial advocacy? No. In fact, I record these episodes seated on the floor of my closet, as I am right now, because as it turns out, clothing makes for good acoustics. But if listening to podcasts on YouTube rather than watching them is your jam, you can find us under at Nita Videos, which is one word. In any event, and however you listen, we at Nita are so glad you do. Until next month, we wish you the very best of luck in your depositions, motions, and trials. Happy lawyering. May the record reflect is a Nita Studio 71 production. Nita, we are advocacy enhanced, mentorship reimagined. Welcome to the community.