From Offer to Acceptance: Navigating Salary Negotiations - with Brandon Bramley of The Salary Negotiator Artwork

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Change Work Life

From Offer to Acceptance: Navigating Salary Negotiations - with Brandon Bramley of The Salary Negotiator

September 10, 2024 • Jeremy Cline/ Brandon Bramley • Episode 188

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#188: Brandon Bramley has a background in strategic negotiations, over a decade of experience in negotiating salaries and is the founder of The Salary Negotiator. He explains how to approach salary negotiations, why different people are offered different compensation for the same role, and how to respond to a new job offer.

What you’ll learn

[01:53] How often people can successfully negotiate their salary.
[02:33] Why companies are happy to negotiate salaries.
[04:00] Why different people will be offered different amounts for the same role.
[05:06] The culture around salary negotiations in the UK and USA.
[06:30] The danger of negotiating too hard.
[08:01] Common myths and fears around salary negotiation.
[09:36] How companies normally respond to salary negotiations.
[10:56] How to assess a compensation offer and the type of negotiation you should pursue.
[14:34] How to compare compensation packages at different companies.
[17:02] Understanding pension contribution packages in a new job role.
[19:14] How to find out the industry standard salaries for a particular role.
[21:29] When a salary negotiation starts.
[24:48] When to be candid about how much you are currently earning.
[26:21] How to approach a salary negotiation.
[28:44] How to respond to a new job offer.
[29:12] The tone you should have when carrying out a salary negotiation.
[31:29] What to do if you’re disappointed with the final salary offer.
[33:03] How your salary negotiation should change if you’re dealing with an external recruiter.
[35:13] Negotiation techniques to overcome pushback.
[36:52] Negotiating a salary with your current company.
[38:45] The reality of salary negotiation and how it should be approached.

Resources mentioned in this episode
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For the show notes for this episode, including a full transcript and links to all the resources mentioned, visit:

https://changeworklife.com/from-offer-to-acceptance-navigating-salary-negotiations/

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What are you worth? It's really exciting to be offered a new job, but you should still be paid fairly for this new job. How do you make sure that happens? How do you negotiate to ensure that you're getting a good salary for the job that you've been offered? That's what we're going to talk about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline and this is Change Work Life. Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast that's all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right place. There's a lot that goes into finding a new job, and one critical aspect is being paid what you're worth. How do you approach salary negotiation for a new position? Do you risk having the offer withdrawn if you negotiate too hard? What leverage do you really have, especially in a competitive industry? My guest this week who's going to help us navigate this subject is Brandon Bramley, founder of The Salary Negotiator with a background in multimillion-dollar business-to-business negotiation. Brandon has, for the past 10 years, helped individuals navigate the job offer negotiation process and earn competitive compensation. Brandon, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. So, you're quite explicit on your website about your business model and how you only charge a fee if you achieve a higher job offer. That suggests to me either that most employers start with a very lowball offer or that you're very, very confident in your process. And I'm intrigued to know which it is. Yeah. So, I actually don't think that companies typically lowball candidates. They do usually shoot to hire them or bring them in at the lower end to the mid-end of the pay range. But, typically, we're actually more confident in our negotiations because what I provide is one-on-one personal coaching throughout the salary negotiation process, and we've seen close to a 94% success rate with our negotiations, essentially showing that about 94% of the times companies do move. So, we're able to build around that a performance-based fee structure to work with our clients because we're so confident that our strategy should help them negotiate a better package. Against that background, I kind of wonder why do companies bother negotiating. I mean, at either end. Why don't they just go for something that's going to be that bit higher, other than the obvious of saving a bit of cash? It is kind of silly when you think about it. Right? But it's become a standard process with most job offers and almost like a separate step of the interview process. But I believe the reason why companies are doing this is because they actually have a set pay range for their roles, so a base salary range and a total compensation range. And like I mentioned before, they try to hire people in at the low to mid-end, but they have flexibility there. That way, they can actually attract different candidates. Right? Because most candidates are coming from different skill sets, different roles, they might have different pays at different companies, so it gives them the flexibility to attract different candidates while also controlling their budget. So, that's why salary negotiation comes into it. So, if they are trying to hire someone at a certain rate, usually you're able to advocate for yourself to hopefully come in at the top end of that pay range. Because at the end of the day, most people should be paid the same as anyone else should be in that role. They're probably going to be doing the same amount of work, have the same projects. So, that's typically where it comes in, and I believe that's why companies are more flexible in adjusting it. Okay. So, notwithstanding that they might have a position to fill, they might have a bit of flexibility as to whether they get someone who's perhaps a bit less experienced, who maybe requires a bit more training, but they might, at the other end, be someone who's got that extra experience and is going to be better able to start from the get-go. And so, there's maybe some flexibility there that they might want to, if there is going to be someone who's got the less experience and requires a bit more training, then they might want to start up on a slightly lower salary. Yeah. Exactly. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, most people's experience is unique. Right? And when you're going through the interview process, regardless of which side you're on, they're looking for different candidates, and they're not sure who they're going to get. So, usually, building the offer around where they feel the person slots in is where they typically push for. So, they build in flexibility for that. But, really, throughout the negotiation process, that's where, hopefully, you can justify to make sure even if you are on the lower end of the range or coming from a company that might not pay as much or a little bit less skill set, that you can still advocate to get paid the same. Because what we've noticed is that with people getting hired is, typically, they already have projects that are planned, so it doesn't matter who they hire. They're going to expect you to do the same. So, even if you have a little bit less experience, if you're going to be doing the same level of work, why would you be paid less? Here in the UK, we're notorious for being bad at blowing our own trumpets, and it's a bit of anything for a quiet life. And I would imagine that most people, the idea of negotiating a salary sounds absolutely horrendous to them. Is that a similar culture to where you are, or are there marked differences in terms of what people feel comfortable with and what feels normal? Yeah. It's actually very similar. A lot of people have many fears when they're going into the negotiation. And if you think about it, I mean, whether it's the UK or it's the United States, it's very similar. Right? Most people are in the interview process, and they're trying to put their best foot forward. So, once you actually get the job offer, it's hard to shift out of that and then advocate for more money, because you don't want to do anything to jeopardize the role. And when it comes to negotiation, what's been hyped up a lot, I think, in movies as well as some books is that it's like the boardroom where it's aggressive, or it's the car dealership where it's more of a bartering with each other, and there's this connotation where negotiation's aggressive, so people worry that doing it is essentially going to jeopardize the opportunity. But in reality, it's usually just a step of the interview process and should be in a kind and professional manner. So, all the fears and the myths around salary negotiations really don't make much sense, but they do come up on both sides. So, you've mentioned there one big fear, which may also be a myth, and that is that if you negotiate too hard, then you risk losing a job offer. And just, I mean, is there any truth in that? I mean, can you negotiate too hard? And if you can, how do you know where to stop? Yeah. So, I think it's definitely possible to lose a job offer if you come in too aggressive or you do the wrong thing. I can confidently say that we've never seen a job offer rescinded through coaching some of my clients and using our strategy. But of course, right, if you come in very aggressive, it's essentially part of the interview process, and if they find out, like, wow, is this the person that's going to interact with our team, going to be like to work with, or going to be communicating with our customers, it might not be a right fit. But like I mentioned, I've never seen a job offer rescinded. So, really, it is a fear or a myth that's out there, that actually prevents people from doing this. But as long as you're actually navigating the negotiation process in a kind and professional manner, almost as in the tone that you're talking with a friend that's helping you feel comfortable with the move to that company, there shouldn't be a risk for them pulling it. The worst case scenario is you'll get a no, and there's obviously a few strategies to try to overcome that no. But at the end of the day, getting a no is possible, but more than likely, they're going to increase the offer and never rescind it. And before we come on to strategies, what are some of the other myths or fears that people typically have around salary negotiation? Yeah. Some of the other ones I hear all the time is, they think the employer's going to outright refuse. Or they might say, 'Hey, I don't have enough leverage to negotiate because I'm currently out of the workforce, or I'm coming to maybe a position or a company that's not as competitive.' But I believe those are silly as well. I mean, at the end of the day, if you're at the point to negotiate, it means you've received a job offer. So, that means you did something right to go ahead and get everyone on the interview panel to say that you're the right one for the job. So, they do want you. And the opportunity cost for the recruiter and the hiring team is that if they don't hire you, they now have to go back essentially to start interviewing other people. That could take weeks, it could take months, and the whole time, the hiring manager doesn't have the person that they want. So, that, in turn, actually gives you the leverage, and there's more likelihood that they're going to try to work something out with you, rather than just go and spend that additional cost to recruit someone else. So, I think that's a big myth, is that the employer's going to outright refuse and people don't have leverage, because they do. So, I'd say those are the two big myths that I see. There's obviously a few more, but those are the big ones that come up all the time. And you mentioned there about competitive industries. I mean, just pushing that point a little bit further, do companies kind of go, 'Okay, well, this is definitely our first choice candidate, but this guy also made it through to final round, so if we don't get anywhere with the first choice, then, we've got a second choice and even a third choice that we'd be happy with'? Yeah. So, it's hard to see what's going on on the recruiting standpoint and what they have in the bucket. But based off our data and what we've seen is, we haven't had companies quickly turn down a negotiation and move on to another candidate. We've heard the recruiters say that a lot. Typically, that's an objection or some ploy to deter the person from negotiating, but we haven't seen them move away typically without negotiating first or entertaining and trying to work it out with that client. So, us, personally, coming from our business standpoint or our data, we don't think truthful, but it's always possible. Right? They're doing interviews with a tonne of candidates, but I used to recruit quite a bit in my procurement and negotiation roles at Amazon, and essentially, some of the big things is, I usually have a candidate that I wanted, rarely did I have multiple candidates that I wanted to go with. It was usually a kind of clear-cut decision. So, let's talk a bit about the process. So, maybe let's frame this in terms of a case study, and regular listeners will be familiar with Tom who I drag into these interviews from time to time. So, Tom is in his late thirties. He's employed as a lawyer in the UK. And for the purposes of this conversation, he has been interviewing, and he has received an offer. And he's starting to think,'Should I accept this offer, or should I negotiate?' So, why don't you talk us through at a high level what the process is, and then we will dive into some parts of it. Yeah. So, there's a tonne of processes out there that you can find online. But coming from our standpoint and our recommendation, especially for Tom on how to negotiate, the first step is actually learning what not only your base compensation is, but what is the total compensation of the job offer, and understanding in general. One of the biggest mistakes that we see, especially as career professionals progress in their careers, is their job offers get much more complex. And a lot of people are stuck in that concept of, hey, I'm going to focus on just the base salary because this is what I see every month in my paycheck. But as you progress in your year, and you start to look at different companies, you have a base salary, you have bonuses, hopefully, you have equity that vests every year, as well as different hiring bonuses like a sign-on bonus And all those go into your total compensation, your monetary take-home pay. So, that's always the first step, right, making sure you understand that so you have the full picture of your compensation, as well as the benefits that come along with that job. The second step that I would recommend, for anyone as well as Tom, is rather than feeling like you need to be ready on the fly to throw out numbers when you get the offer, really, it's a good opportunity to actually slow things down. Right? Because you haven't done that review. If you're getting the offer over the phone, or you're getting it right away, you're not ready necessarily to throw out numbers to negotiate. So, a good part that we preach is actually doing your due diligence and asking strategic questions. Once you're actually learning more about the role, you're clarifying actually how that compensation works. So, what's included, what's not included, how the financials work, what benefits are there, and it gives you an opportunity to ask for things that weren't included off the bat, whether it's a sign-on bonus, different perks that you currently have, additional vacation items like that, that might just be on the table, that weren't in their standard benefits documents before you go into the negotiation. And it also helps you build a little bit of leverage by targeting some of those items and asking for items that you currently have at your current company, or you've seen at competitors, because it might show that their offer is not as competitive off the bat. So, that's a big step right when you get it that we highly recommend. And then, from there, what it leads into while the recruiter's working on that is actually doing the compensation research. So, as I mentioned before, most companies are going to have a base salary range and a total compensation range for every position level and location. So, it's not necessarily easy, but it's not hard to spend some time researching what those ranges are, so you can see where your initial offer actually sits on that range and have a better idea of how competitive it is and how much more to ask for. Then, that leads you into crafting a strategic counteroffer on how you're actually going to present it to the team, and then actually getting prepared for pushback, because at the end of the day, I mean, it is a negotiation, so the recruiters typically know how to negotiate or at least deter you from negotiating. So, being prepared how to handle some of those objections and push back, so that counteroffer that you put so much time into actually makes it into the hands of the decision-makers. So, I know that's kind of quick, but that's our five-step process from start to finish. Let's talk about the compensation research element, and it's interesting what you're saying there about the complexity of the packages the more senior you become. And so, I'm wondering how Tom might start comparing things, particularly where they seem to be quite different, and it's almost like you're comparing apples with oranges. So, for example, let's say that Tom has an offer from two different law firms. One is an enormous, great, big city firm in shiny offices that's well-resourced and has some really good other benefits beyond the compensation. Whereas there's another firm which is perhaps a bit smaller, they're offering similar headline compensation, but the other benefits don't necessarily look so great. So, I'm just wondering how Tom would figure out, say, he wanted to pursue the offer with the smaller firm, but he wanted to try and figure out what would be appropriate in terms of, say, an uplift in base salary to make up the fact that the other benefits aren't as generous. Yeah. Great question. That's honestly a good example because that's usually what happens, right? Sometimes there's a trade-off between benefits and companies, especially if you're going the smaller company route and the bigger company route. But when it comes down to compensation research-wise and the data that you're going to be able to find for a role is typically only going to include the core total compensation components, at least when you're researching what should the pay range be. Right? It's going to include your base salary combined with the bonus, combined with equity, if there is, as well as a sign-on bonus. Those are typically the ranges that you'll find online when you're going through resources, whether it's PayScale, Glassdoor, Built In or other resources to do that compensation, and that's actually how you would navigate that for both roles, specific to each role to find out what the total compensation is and building that out combined on a schedule if it has equity. But when it comes to benefits, those are going to hold different values as well, because there is a monetary value with that, but it's not necessarily what you're going to find when you do your research on what the company will pay. But personally to you, some benefits are going to be valued more than others. So, with those, it's typically taking those and putting the value that they have on for you, and then adding them on to see what should you try to push for, to see if they'll offer those, or use those in your counteroffer as well to call out on X, Y, Z of why they should increase the offer because they don't include these that are consistent with your current company or some of the other offers that you received. I don't know how much this also applies to the US as it does the UK, but pension contributions can be quite significant. So, it might be, at one end, if you contribute 2% of your salary, then the employer will contribute 4%. But it could also be that if you contribute 4%, then the employer will contribute 8%, which is significantly better. So, I'm just wondering whether this information is even available or whether then you've really just got to look at the minutiae when you're comparing different offers. Yeah. Absolutely. So, it's not really available when you search compensation-wise what it is, but it will be in the job offer when you get it, and you'll be able to compare it towards your current programme. And if you're looking at your financial picture holistically, retirement is probably a big perk, and it's good to weigh against that. But with that, typically, we would segment that out. But it's actually a good item, and that's what we always recommend, whether that's the UK or the US, is in that initial due diligence phase, if you've noticed that the company has a smaller pension or retirement match programme, is to actually call that out. Some type of question of like, 'Hey, I noticed that you only offer X percent in your pension plan, which is lower than the industry standard or lower than my X percent that I currently get in my company. Is this consistent for all levels and roles, or is there any flexibility here?' Just by asking that question, they're probably not going to adjust it because it's a benefit that's for the entire company, but already calling that item out is that there are some differences, and their offer might not be as competitive as they might think. So, when you come in to send a counteroffer and you re-mention that item to push for a higher salary, there's going to be more justification for it. In terms of some of the tools that you mentioned, how granular can you get? I mean, how much can you apply by way of filters to get something which more closely matches the position that you're going for in terms of seniority and size of organisation and all the things that might go into effect what the compensation package looks like? Yeah. Great question. So, usually for a popular role or a bigger company, it's going to be a lot easier to get way more specific, where you can get as granular as the company, the position, the location, as well as the role, and kind of go ahead and do the compensation specific to that. As you go down the chain to smaller companies or more niche positions, that is where on some of those sites, you're probably not going to be able to find it specific maybe to that company or that location. And instead, doing the broad research is where you have to shift gears and start looking at similar-sized companies or that role in that position and doing more of the market research that way, so you can actually pull it in. Because there are times, say it's a start-up, where you're not going to be able to find if they're only hiring a certain amount of people for that role, what the compensation is, but if you think about it from the HR standpoint and the HR team, they've done the compensation research on similar companies, similar size in that location, and so they're pulling their data based off of that. So, essentially, what you're trying to do is actually recreate what they might be seeing on their side, so you can get a better idea of what the pay range should be, so you don't come out of left field and come in with too aggressive of an ask when you're building your counteroffer. Okay. So, where can Tom look for that kind of information that HR would be using? Yeah. So, some of the best sites that we've seen are PayScale, Glassdoor, salary.com, Comparably, and there's a whole host out there, especially if we're talking through different countries. My main recommendation is at least to do just a quick Google first where you put your company, job title, salary, just to see what the top hits are, to see where you can get that. But the biggest callout with doing your compensation research is, there's never going to be one resource that is the one that you should follow. The reason being is for the majority of those, a lot are publicly reported. Right? So, it's employees that work there currently, or they worked in their past. So, it's prone to errors as well as if it's, say, with a company further in your career where you have equity and that equity's appreciated, they might be reporting higher pay, which might be a little bit different than a new hire. So, my recommendation is to make sure that you're averaging across multiple inputs. So, try and have multiple resources and averaging across those to make sure that you're getting a better idea on what the compensation range should be, rather than relying on one resource. When does the negotiation start? Is it at the point of offer, or is there a bit of jostling for position that can take place even before an offer is formally made? This is a top question that we get all the time, and I can imagine you get as well, because a lot of people will say that the negotiation starts when they're asking for salary expectations or throughout the interview. But what we found based off of our negotiations is that realistically, the negotiations shouldn't start until you actually get the job offer. The reason being is that's when you have the full picture, you have all the information, you've gone through all the interviews, and you know what they're offering, as well as the leverage shifts. Right? They've decided you for the role, you now have the option to either accept or decline it. So, you're able to move forward if you want, and they do want you in that position. But it brings up a good point, because what do you say during the interview process, as well as what do you say when they share salary expectations? So, some tips there negotiation-wise is, if they're asking for your current salary or salary expectations, rather than sharing them, because if you share a number that's lower than what they'd expect or what they can pay, you're probably going to end up on that lower end of the band and not get competitive compensation. If you share a higher number that's higher on their band or not on their band, they might say, 'Hey, shoot. Sorry. We can't afford you, Tom. We're going to go in a different route.' So, my biggest tip there is typically that's a chance to turn the conversation on the recruiting team and ask them what the pay range is. So, something as simple as like, 'Hey, I've been focusing on interviewing for the role, so I'm not necessarily comfortable sharing my salary expectations, but I'd love to understand from you on a base salary basis and a total compensation basis what the pay range is for that position.' Because if you think about it, they should have the pay, and they should know what they can pay in that role. And what you'll even see here in the US is companies have to start posting the salary bands, so it's information that's becoming more readily available, and that's going to give you a better idea, rather than you shooting in the dark with numbers too early. I can see that feeling uncomfortable, but I can also see the logic because, I mean, what you're basically saying is, well, I'm not going to tell you what I'm being paid at the moment or how much I want, but I'd love you to tell me what your salary bands are for this role. Yeah. It can definitely make you feel a little uncomfortable, which is why I recommend always thinking about the logic in it. Right? They're recruiting for the position. It's not like they have no idea what they're going to hire for. Right? Maybe if it's a niche role and they've never hired this position at a small start-up, they might not. But for most of the time, they have the salary bands. They know what it is. Usually, the information they get from you is just going to go into where they can place the offer. But there are obviously bigger concerns before you get it that can affect you negatively instead. So, getting comfortable with just pushing back. And that's why, I think, the best way to do it is just like, hey, I've been focusing on interviewing, which I can imagine you can, and turning it back. And, usually, you'll find out they'll say it, because the same pushback and that uncomfortable feeling that you get, most likely the recruiter's feeling the same. When you go ahead and push back, they don't want to push back again and say,'Oh, no, I can't give it', when you say something like that. So, it's kind of a give-take. And even though it might feel uncomfortable, as long as it's in a kind tone, and you're coming from a place of trying to work with them, it shouldn't come off as aggressive. Presumably, there must be an element of good faith. So, if, say, I don't know, Tom is on a salary of 75,000, and he's looking to get not less than that. And he refuses to say what he's on and what his position is, but he asked the question, and then they say, 'Well, our range for this is 55,000 to 65,000, then I suppose they are kind of expecting Tom in those circumstances to withdraw and go, 'No, this isn't going to work for me', if that really is his position. Yeah. That's a good call because that would be the one time that I do recommend being pretty candid on what you're looking for in your next role. Because another thing with that is, you don't want to waste your time, and the recruiter doesn't want to waste their time going through the interview process. So, if they do share numbers that are completely outside of what you probably make the move for, and you're probably going to cancel the interview anyways, it's most likely better to go ahead and share that and say, 'Hey, now you've shared that, I'll be candid, I'm already making X, or most likely, even though I haven't done the full research on the interview, I was probably targeting something between X to X. So, is that feasible, or are you really locked into that range?' Because at the end of the day, most likely, you're probably not going to interview with them if the range is far off from what you're hoping for, so it's not necessarily going to hurt you later on, compared to if it's a position that you're probably within the range, and you're trying to get a step up. So, Tom has received an offer, and he thinks there might be a bit of wriggle room. So, let's concentrate on the headline salary. So, Tom thinks that there's a few more grands that he can get out of the offer. How does he approach the negotiation? Yeah. Absolutely. So, like I mentioned before with doing the compensation research, that's going to show Tom how much he can get. Right? So, when Tom's going down, compiling everything, he should be able to break down the total compensation on his current offer and compare that to his research to see what the delta is. Then, to actually go about getting that and essentially bringing that to the recruiting team, my recommendation there is, rather than doing it over the phone, a counter, actually typing everything out and building a solid counteroffer by email. The reason being is, if you go ahead and include it, you're able to go ahead and control the tone and the narrative, probably think of it as a positivity sandwich, starting off with your excitement for the role, clarifying the details that you found in those due diligence questions, obviously, some of the items that we're missing, as well as the compensation research that you did and that you're hoping to get, and then close with additional positivity with your assumption that you're going to work it out, and you look forward to working there. The reason I recommend sending an email instead of on the phone is recruiters are trained to negotiate. A lot of people feel it's actually softer to share over the phone. But what we found is typically what happens is, when they start to present their counteroffer, the recruiter knows exactly where they're going. So, they butt in, they cut them off, the person gets derailed, especially if they're nervous to have that conversation, and it sets you up to where you're going to get objections right there on the phone, and you're not prepared for them. Right? Where they're going to say, 'Oh, we can't do that because of X or, oh, that's too wild or, oh, hey, we've already checked, we can't do anything, I need you to accept.' Compared to if you sent everything over in the email, one, you're predicting if a call comes up next, what it's going to be about, most likely push back, and you can be prepared for that, as well as you're making sure that you're not putting all your trust in the recruiter of actually noting down everything on the phone of what you asked for, and you've actually given them exactly what they need to go advocate on your behalf and what you're asking for. And I guess one of the things that comes with that then is resisting when a recruiter phones you up saying, 'Hey, did you receive the offer? What did you think of it?', saying, 'Okay. No, thank you for the offer. I'm just giving it a little bit more thought, and you'll hear from me, I don't know, in the next 24 hours or something like that.' Exactly. If I was Tom, and they asked me, 'Hey, how do you feel about it?', I mean, the one thing is, you should be excited. Right? I can imagine most people are going to be, so don't shy away from that. But my response would be like, 'Hey, this is amazing. I'm super excited to work at X. But if you don't mind sending over the details by email, both the offer package, as well as the benefit details, that way I can sit down and review it. I can let you know if I have any questions or concerns. But super excited to work there. Just want to make sure I understand everything before we move forward.' So, Tom has sent his carefully crafted email negotiating some of the points, and he receives something back. And what he receives back, maybe there's a bit of wriggle, but it's not an agreement to everything he's asked for. So, how does he then respond to that? Yeah. The way I'd recommend Tom respond to that is, if it's by email that he gets it, or if he's on the phone. If it's by email, typically, he can go ahead and draft a second counteroffer, which is still keeping it in a positive tone but reclarifying the items in the miss, maybe moving to a fix of, hey, it would need to be exactly this, this is what I'm hoping for, and asking them to take it back one more time. But typically, that's going to happen on a call, right? The recruiter is going to call Tom and say, 'Hey, Tom, I want to talk through any updates. This is what we're able to do.' My recommendation there is to either handle it as an objection of saying, 'Hey, look, this sounds amazing. I really appreciate you advocating on my behalf and taking it back. I know that must not have been easy, but it's obviously a little bit lower than what I was expecting. So, do you mind taking this back one last time to see if they can make any additional adjustments?' Right? Or the option is, if you don't feel comfortable doing that on the phone, just letting them know that you want to take a look at the updated offer and sending the second counteroffer. But still, the biggest thing, I can't call it enough, is if I was Tom, I would appreciate the recruiter of how well they did advocate on behalf and the work they went through, but let them know that you want to take one more look at it. Because at the end of the day, these negotiations don't need to be aggressive, and that recruiter's already worked on it. And if you're planning to send a second counteroffer, you want them on your side in hopes that they'll take it back again. So, there's definitely something in this style there about keeping it as friendly and light and nonconfrontational as you can. Yes. Absolutely. I mean, the biggest thing I would say is the tone of these conversations should almost be like you're talking to a friend that's helping you feel comfortable to move to the new company, because you're essentially still in that interview phase. Right? So, it shouldn't be confrontational, it shouldn't be aggressive. That's where you might run the risk of getting an offer rescinded or jeopardizing a relationship, but really should come off of a place where you're trying to work together and accept the role. And if Tom thinks that he's basically got as far as he's going to get, and he still feels a little bit disappointed, what are some of the thought processes that he might be able to employ to help him figure out what he wants to do next? Yeah. That's a tough one because it really depends on what options Tom has and where he's at. Right? Because at the end of the day, not all companies negotiate, and companies have a set pay rate on what they might bring someone in at. So, if that doesn't fit Tom's requirements, it's a point of reflection, right, to compare what other opportunities does he have. Does he want to stay where he currently is? Does he have other offers? But the big thing, I think, is usually throughout the negotiation process, usually by the end if you do it wrong, at least you know you have the best offer from that company on what they're willing to provide. So, there should be a little bit of confidence there of saying, hey, look, they're not going to offer any better, I've kind of worked this through. So, if you move forward, at least you know you got the best offer there, willing. But then, actually, Tom needs to sit down and review if this is the right position overall or if it's worth taking another opportunity or continuing to interview for other opportunities down the road. We've used the term recruiter quite a lot, and I've rather taken that to mean an internal recruiter here. So, the person at the company that's doing the hiring as the recruiter. But something that I found particularly in law which would be relevant to Tom is that a lot of this is done through external recruiters and head-hunters. I'm curious there as to how the strategy might change, particularly if you are not having any direct salary compensation discussions with the company. They're all going through the recruiter. And given that recruiters may have some conflicting incentives here, particularly if say a recruiter's fee is three-months salary, and they would rather get three times something that's slightly a bit lower, but get it in the bag. And so, they might be going, 'Hey, you know what? This really is the best you're going to get. So, I really do think you should go for it.' So, how does Tom approach the situation where he's dealing maybe only with this external recruiter? Yeah. I mean, right off the bat, the biggest thing you called out is the incentives external recruiters have. That's a big difference that comes into it. They're incentivised typically if you accept the job. If you don't accept the role, they don't get paid. So, they want to say anything they can to make sure you accept it. Otherwise, they're out of money, and they have to find either another role for you or someone else for that position. So, the strategies are the same, but you are possibly going to get more pushback from an external recruiter. And typically with the external recruiter, you're going to build that friendship with them throughout the process. Right? They're going to be your best friend, your buddy, and all that. You might even be on a texting basis with updates to the job. And when you get to the negotiation phase, you're going to trust them a little bit more. That's usually why, just like salespeople, they build the rapport, build the relationship. You take their comments without a grain of salt and trust them. So, when they come to you saying, 'Hey, this is the best we have. This is all we can do', all that, depending on what stage it is in the negotiation, those should still be handled as an objection, and you essentially still should be pushing that recruiter to take everything back to that hiring team at the company, which is the decision-makers. So, I would picture the external recruiter just as a middleman, which makes it all more important why you need to make sure that your comments in the counteroffer make it over to the hiring team. And how can you do that rather than the recruiter coming back before they even show it to the hiring team and going, 'They're just not going to accept this'? Absolutely. So, I would consider, at least, what I coach and what I would recommend, so if I was Tom, is handling it as an objection. And what I consider an objection handler is essentially a negotiation technique that we overcome pushback. Right? And we do that by essentially asking questions, sometimes up to three times, even if it's the same question, to get what we want. Because usually what that's going to be is, when they come back with pushback, it's going to be a false no in trying to deter you from negotiating. So, if they came back and said,'Hey, look, this is too much, we're at the best we can do, I can't offer that', the way to get them to take it back is to say something like, 'Hey, I appreciate it, I know that it's a very generous offer, and you've been working on this, but as I presented, I do still have these concerns, and I'd greatly appreciate if you could take it back to your team one last time. So, do you mind taking this back to see what the company can do to increase that offer?' This is an item that's probably going to, for Tom or for anyone else, feel a little uncomfortable, but it's a negotiation tactic where the person on the other side of the conversation feels the same because you're asking them to do something. So, even if they come back again and say, 'Hey, look, I've already checked, I really wish I could', repeating the same thing over just in a different way but ending with that comment to ask them to take it back is how you gently overcome that until they agree, usually up to three times. We've concentrated principally on negotiating salaries for new jobs. I'm curious what you've seen in terms of someone negotiating the salary within a job? So, maybe it's in the context of an annual review or something like that, and how much of this can they take into that situation? So, very similar concepts. Right? Except when it comes to negotiating with your current company, there's a lot more on the line as for relationships, as well as career trajectory. Right? This, I can't harp enough again on why you shouldn't be aggressive in these conversations, but the same tactics that you can use are exactly the same. Right? There's understanding your compensation, doing the compensation research to see, hey, are you being paid the right amount, or have you not stayed up, say, with inflation and how the job market has changed, and then presenting that to your hiring team with essentially a counteroffer, presenting just your research, what you found, and then getting pushback, it's still handling it as an objection. Right? Because maybe your manager doesn't want to take it back because it's extra work, as well as your HR team might be designed to go ahead and deter negotiating, because if one employee negotiates, they have to negotiate for everyone. So, being prepared to overcome those objections for pushback to see if they'll do it, as well as some item that's different is, if they try to push out the decision, actually making sure that they act on it now. So, for example, if they're like, 'Okay, we'll look at that next review in six months', saying, 'Hey, I appreciate it, but as I mentioned, it looks like my pay is lower at the current point compared to market, and I'd really appreciate if you could take a look at it now. So, do you mind taking a look at this to see what ways we can do to adjust my compensation?' And the last thing that's exactly the same is the tone, to make sure you're not jeopardizing the relationship with your manager, as well as the HR team since, at the end of the day, you probably still want to work there. So, is there anything that we haven't covered which you think Tom really, really ought to know or any final thoughts that you can leave Tom with, so that he's a bit more confident about approaching this process? Yeah. I would say, the last thing I would share with Tom and the rest of the team is, you shouldn't be afraid to negotiate. Way too often have there been books, movies, and shows out there or what you've experienced at maybe the car dealership to show that negotiations are aggressive, but our data has shown that companies do adjust compensation, and they're willing to work with employees. So, as long as you go through the process, and you present it in a kind and professional manner, nine times out of 10, they're going to make adjustments and work with you. The worst-case scenario is they'll say no. So, my recommendation is to come in prepared, treat it as part of the interview, and hopefully receive competitive compensation before you accept in your new role. Lots of tips for people to take away. If someone is interested in learning more, what are your favourite books or other resources on negotiation or anything else that we've talked about here? To be honest, one of the biggest ones that I've read recently is actually going to be Land Your Dream Job Anywhere from actually Mac Prichard at Mac's List. This has been one that I've actually recommended to many clients because it helps them get comfortable with interviewing and gets them actually into the realm of interviewing. I wouldn't say necessarily it goes too deep into negotiations, but essentially, it brings a lot more positivity. Because at the end of the day, most of the people I talk to, and even with my personal experience in the past, interviews are tough. So, actually, having the ability to get through that so you're not stressed out, and it's strategic, and you're building a framework, that way, you can also build a framework and be prepared for the negotiation. But I would say that's the top book that I've read career-wise in the last year. And for someone who wants to find out more about you and maybe wants to work with you, where should they go? Yeah. So, you can actually learn a lot more about my strategies and see how I've helped career professionals earn more by visiting thesalarynegotiator.com. So, as I mentioned earlier, I provide both personal salary negotiation coaching, and we have a ton of salary negotiation courses, both for new job offers and negotiating with your current company. So, you can find those at thesalarynegotiator.com/courses. But I'm also very active on LinkedIn, so feel free to reach out to me directly there or check out our business on LinkedIn. And do you only work with people in the US, or do you extend beyond that? No. So, we work with, people globally. So, we work with them in Canada, the UK, and other countries, as long as we're able to set up our time zones for calls to help them through it. Brilliant. I will put links in the show notes. Brandon, a whole range of tips there. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. It's good to chair, and I hope everyone got some tangible advice to use in their negotiations. Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Brandon Bramley. Brandon gave us loads of tips and strategies that you can use in your salary negotiations, but I think for me the starting point is a question of mindset. For most of us, the idea of negotiating just feels really uncomfortable. It's not something we're used to, and we feel we're in a much lower bargaining position against this big company that has graciously offered us a huge position. But if you listen to the episode with Louise Lapish a couple of weeks ago, she mentioned how no one else cares about your career apart from you. When you've received a job offer, you can't necessarily assume that the company is acting in your best interests. If you want to take charge of your career, it's down to you to negotiate a fair, reasonable salary. Fortunately, there are people like Brandon who can offer you lots of tips for helping you negotiate your salary, and if you want to engage his services, he can take a lot of the work from you. Show notes for this episode are at changeworklife.com/188, that's changeworklife.com/188, where you'll find the summary of everything we talked about, the transcript, and links to resources mentioned. As we come to the end of the summer, my mind is already turning to the content that I can put out next year, and I need your help. Let me know what sort of stuff would you like to hear. What's going to be really useful for you for me to cover in future episodes? What specific challenges are you facing at the moment in your work or your career? Let me know using the contact form on my website. That's at changeworklife.com/contact, changeworklife.com/contact, and suggest anything that you'd like help with. In the meantime, there's another great episode coming your way in two weeks' time, so subscribe to the show if you haven't already, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.