Change Work Life

Dealing with imposter syndrome - with Massimo Roselli

• Jeremy Cline/ Massimo Roselli

Share episode

Questions? Comments? Episode suggestions? Send us a text message!

#190: Massimo Roselli is a trauma-informed career coach who helps individuals explore their career goals and overcome challenges.  He explains the common symptoms of imposter syndrome, how trauma affects your mindset, and strategies that can be used to eradicate imposter syndrome.

What you’ll learn

  • [01:25] What it means to be a trauma-informed career coach.
  • [03:12] The difference between therapy and trauma coaching.
  • [04:54] How trauma affects imposter syndrome.
  • [06:19] The definition of imposter syndrome.
  • [08:50] The difference between motivation and imposter syndrome.
  • [10:55] How imposter syndrome presents itself in individuals.
  • [12:22] The different personality traits that lead to imposter syndrome.
  • [16:46] Symptoms of imposter syndrome that are often overlooked.
  • [18:35] The benefits of dealing with imposter syndrome.
  • [21:58] How possible it is to eradicate imposter syndrome.
  • [23:00] Strategies that can be used to eradicate imposter syndrome.
  • [25:00] The subconscious thoughts behind imposter syndrome and the physical effects they result in.
  • [27:23] Why mindset work isn’t enough to deal with imposter syndrome.
  • [28:27] Breathing techniques that can help improve imposter syndrome.
  • [30:32] The physical effects of slowing your breathing down.
  • [32:13] Mindset practices that can help improve imposter syndrome.
  • [37:55] The effect of objectively observing your thoughts.
  • [39:55] An example of someone successfully eradicating their imposter syndrome.

Resources mentioned in this episode
Please note that some of these are affiliate links and we may get a commission in the event that you make a purchase.  This helps us to cover our expenses and is at no additional cost to you.

For the show notes for this episode, including a full transcript and links to all the resources mentioned, visit:

https://changeworklife.com/dealing-with-imposter-syndrome/

Re-assessing your career?  Know you need a change but don't really know where to start?  Check out these two exercises to start the journey of working out what career is right for you!

You're not good enough. You're going to be found out. You don't really belong there. If you're suffering with imposter syndrome, then this is the episode for you. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life. Hello, and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast, the show where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right place. Do you ever feel as though eventually, someone is going to find you out? That one day you'll get a tap on the shoulder, and your boss will tell you that you don't really know what you're doing. If these kinds of thoughts regularly cross your mind, then you may well be experiencing imposter syndrome, and that's what we're going to be tackling this week. Joining me today is Massimo Roselli, a trauma-informed career coach who creates a safe and supportive space for individuals to explore career goals and overcome challenges. Massimo offers a tailored approach that honours the needs of those who have experienced trauma. Massimo, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Jeremy. Thank you for having me as your guest. So, I know what a career coach is, but what does it mean to be a trauma-informed career coach? Sure. This is also one of the questions I offer. I will start by saying that trauma is an internal experience. It's an internal response that is deeply stored in your body. Therefore, your conscious mind may not be aware of how this response may affect the work you do and the way you approach your work, the way you approach your relationships at work, the way you see yourself at work. So, being a trauma-informed coach means I create a confidential, safe, and free-of-judgment space where my clients are more than welcome to explore their emotions. They are also welcome to process their emotions and discuss anything that can help them develop better coping strategies when it comes to anything that might be related to their trauma experiences. Which means, as a coach, I use different tools, which take into consideration not only the mindset, but also their body and their presence in order to improve their work experience and ensure that, whenever trauma shows up in the work they do and also in the way they relate to people, they become more conscious. Therefore, they create more space for a better, more conscious choice to connect with a more resourceful self in the work they do. So, does this go into the realm of therapy? I mean, my fairly basic understanding has always been that therapy is more about dealing with unresolved issues in the past, whereas coaching is much more about the present and moving forward. So, I'm curious to know whether there's any crossover there. It's a very good question. And I would say that, generally speaking, and particularly in this case, the line between therapy and coaching is very fine. Therapy, as you have correctly said, is about helping the client resolve past issues, whereas coaching is all about the present and the future. As a trauma-informed coach, I've been trained to help people understand how their trauma might affect the way they experience the work they do, and also the relationships they have, but also how they see themselves at work and how trauma might show up in the here and now, in the present moment. Because once the client has that level of awareness, then we can both create some space for them to develop better strategies in the present, in the here and now, to build a better future for them, so that they don't get re-traumatised. So, coaching still remains a tool to help them in the here and now, but with a different level of awareness when it comes to the traumatic experience they are still healing. And when it comes to imposter syndrome, how can trauma affect whether or not that presents itself? This is one of the reasons why many people, unfortunately, believe that imposter syndrome is not curable. Because there is not a deep understanding of the link that very often you have between imposter syndrome and trauma. Imposter syndrome is a visceral thing, and it's stored in the body, and it may also be triggered by a traumatic experience. There is also evidence, and this is something that is based on the latest research, showing that imposter syndrome's repeated fears can lead to what is known as complex PTSD, with PTSD like flashbacks, leading to severe health issues, including anxiety, clinical depression, and even burnout. So, if we don't understand the link between trauma being an inner response stored in the body, and imposter syndrome also being an internal subconscious response stored in the body, it can be very difficult to eradicate imposter syndrome. Well, that's fascinating. I've never heard it in those terms before. I think we'd better get a few definitions out of the way. People will have heard of imposter syndrome, I know I've also heard it called the imposter phenomenon. Some people might think that it's about just not being very self-confident. So, how would you define imposter syndrome in fairly simple terms, as though you were explaining it to an eight-year-old? Great question, which is also why it's important to cut off the noise out there, especially on the socials, including LinkedIn. Let me tell you, first of all, what the official definition is. The accurate original name is actually imposter phenomenon. And the term imposter phenomenon was coined by two American psychologists, Doctor Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, back in the seventies. They wrote the first study about the imposter phenomenon after conducting psychotherapy with over 150 highly successful women. This is why even today, we may tend to think that this phenomenon affects women rather than men, thus reinforcing the stereotype. Doctor Pauline Clance described the imposter phenomenon as an internal experience of phoniness that those who feel like a fraud and worthless have, in spite of academic or professional accomplishment. According to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it's the feeling that our achievements are not real or that we don't deserve praise or success. I really like the definition that Clare Josa, the UK's leading authority in the context of imposter syndrome, has about imposter syndrome. And I guess this is something that really helped me also, individually speaking, understand what imposter syndrome is. It's the gap between how you see yourself as being today and who you think you need to be to create or achieve a goal despite all evidence that you're more than capable. So, this is one of those definitions I really like, because I think it simplifies different kinds of definitions and interpretations we've had about imposter syndrome, but also, it helps you understand why it's much more popular these days as a syndrome. And we can talk about it if you wish. So, this gap you talk about between how we perceive ourselves and how we perceive what we need to be, where's the difference between that being an aspiration and that being something negative? So, you know, let's say that, I don't know, I want to be the next Elon Musk. There's probably quite a lot I would need to do in order to get there, but I can use that as a sort of motivation or as an aspirational tool. Okay, so here I am now, if I want to emulate Elon Musk, what are the things that I would need to do? Because I know I'm not there yet. So, yeah, what's the difference between that motivating thing and imposter syndrome? So, the motivating thing is very clear, and it depends on whether you're struggling with imposter syndrome or you're not struggling with imposter syndrome. It can be a positive motivating factor if we come from a place of abundance. What I mean is, if we are motivated by our highest values, if we are motivated by positive outcomes, if we are motivated by what is important for us to achieve, then we are not struggling with imposter syndrome. Whenever we struggle with imposter syndrome, we are not really talking about a positive aspiration. What we are talking about is fear. We are coming from a place of fear. Therefore, the gap between how we see ourselves as currently being and how we see ourselves in terms of what we need to become to create or achieve a goal is filled with survival coping mechanisms to reduce that fear. So, we do our best to reduce that fear. This is why it can become quite overwhelming to the point that, if left unchecked, it can lead to severe health issues. So, you mentioned the coping mechanisms. How might imposter syndrome present itself? There's plenty of research showing that whenever we struggle with imposter syndrome, we often talk about the four P's. And the four P's are Perfectionism, Procrastination, Project paralysis, and People pleasing. And these are all survival coping mechanisms. These are all survival strategies that we have subconsciously learned to adapt to challenges. So, going back to Clare Josa's definition of being in a gap, whenever we use, subconsciously speaking, these coping mechanisms, we do our best to reduce that gap. The problem is, whenever there's a new opportunity to deal with, whenever there's a promotion, whenever we are faced with a new challenge, whenever we want to stretch our comfort zone, if we struggle with imposter syndrome, that gap becomes bigger and bigger. Therefore, those coping mechanisms in the long term do not work and can have a detrimental impact on your overall well-being. And I think I've heard of, is it the five types of imposter syndrome? I might have got the number wrong. You mentioned four different things there. So, yeah, the different types of imposter, can you talk a bit to that? Yes. So, there are some common causes when it comes to imposter syndrome. And one of those common causes is related to certain personality traits. And there is some research showing that there are certain personality traits or personality types in the context of imposter syndrome, including the Perfectionist, the Soloist, the Superman or Superwoman, the Genius. So, these are some examples of personality types or traits that might, let's say, be fertile territory to imposter syndrome and how imposter syndrome may come out, especially in certain contexts. Can you just run us through some of the traits that come out with those particular types, some of the traits or some of the thought processes? Sure. So, one of the most common personality types in the context of imposter syndrome is being a perfectionist. And perfectionism is a protective trauma response. It's a survival response. It's a survival coping mechanism. So, whenever you deal with perfectionism, you raise high standards that are really impossible to achieve. Therefore, procrastination means overpreparation. And the reason why you tend to overwork is because you want to prove to others that you're worthy. And so, there's a lot of thinking in the background, and this is not just something that happens when you might deal with perfectionism, but definitely, when you deal with perfectionism, the internal dialogue is very strong and is very negative. So, this is definitely an example of how imposter syndrome may show up, particularly when you deal with perfectionism. And then, I'm conscious I also mentioned other personality types or traits, including the Superman or Superwoman. Basically, you subconsciously convince yourself that you can do everything on your own, and that you are great, and that you don't need any support, you don't need to ask for help. Therefore, whenever you deal with a challenge that might be uncomfortable or that might stretch your comfort zone, you might just give up. And that's also another reason why you might end up having negative, unsupportive, unhelpful thoughts that will amplify imposter syndrome-driven self-talk. Okay. So, a feeling not necessarily that you can do it all by yourself, but that somehow you should do it all by yourself, and that it's improper somehow to ask people for help. That's another sort of aspect of this Superman or Superwoman personality traits. We could simplify it by saying that. Yes. And it's not just something that would be related to being a Superman or Superwoman, but because it's something that you could also have in relation to other personality types or traits. Whenever I work with clients who struggle with imposter syndrome, I very rarely touch on the personality type or trait. It can be one of the common causes of imposter syndrome. But for me and for the client, it's more important to understand what strategies, from a survival point of view, they are adopting in the here and now, in the present, to reduce the stress levels, to reduce the anxiety levels, and what we can do together to ensure that they come from a different place that is not a place of fear, so that they can deal more effectively with imposter syndrome. And if they're prepared to do the deep work, they can even eradicate imposter syndrome. What are some of the, if you like, overlooked symptoms of imposter syndrome that people might not come across or might not have thought about? So, if left unchecked, imposter syndrome can lead to a wide range of health issues. Hence, the term syndrome. And those health issues may include clinical depression, anxiety, addictions, and even burnout. There's plenty of research showing that imposter syndrome and burnout are strictly linked. So, these are just some examples of issues on an individual level. But also, think about the organisation. And that's also why there is so much noise these days about imposter syndrome. Because very often we may tend to focus on what might be the cost for the individual when they struggle with imposter syndrome, without also considering what might be the cost for the organisation when employees are struggling with imposter syndrome. And those costs can be highly related to lack of innovation, lack of growth. Think about teams who might become risk-averse because of imposter syndrome. Think about teams who might not feel safe enough sharing their great ideas because of imposter syndrome, or because their manager has turned into a micromanaging perfectionist. There are many reasons why imposter syndrome can be quite detrimental to your overall well-being, and also to productivity when it comes to organisations, generally speaking. And so, presumably, the benefits of dealing with imposter syndrome are largely the converse of what you've described. So, it's avoiding these health outcomes and increasing productivity and teamwork and so on in the workspace and that kind of thing. That's correct. That's correct. It's a combination of individual and team efforts and factors within the organisation. And I'm conscious I briefly mentioned burnout. And if you think about burnout and the link between imposter syndrome and burnout, there are three main pillars. One is culture. So, think about the organisation's culture, but also the national culture, and there are also many other examples of culture. Think about the environment, so that's the other pillar. So, by environment, I mean the people we are surrounded by at work, the location, the space where we work. And the other pillar is habits. And that's where we have control. Because once we do the work we need to do to change our habits, that's when, by changing our habits, we can influence the external world. So, this is something that I also very often want people I work with to know, because imposter syndrome is always context-dependent, and it may come out also as a result of toxic culture within an organisation. And things like culture and environment, you might be able to influence those to a point, but you might not be able to, and so the only thing you can possibly do about that is move to a different organisation with a better cultural and environmental fit. But the habit side of things, that's something which pretty much any individual can do in any situation, any organisation. Absolutely. You have control over your habits. And you also raised a very important point, which reminds me of one of my latest coaching conversations with a client, where we have identified, on one hand, they struggled with imposter syndrome, and on the other hand, of values misalignment with the company. Therefore, as you said, if you realise you have this conflict, then one of the questions could be what may need to happen for you to be able to find a space where you can grow and thrive, where you can be the best version of yourself. Because maybe, just maybe, one of the reasons why you're struggling with imposter syndrome is because you're not in the right place, in a place that can help you grow and thrive. You mentioned earlier the idea that you could eradicate imposter syndrome. Before we get on to how you might do that, is this something that you can cure and then that's it, and you never have to worry about it again? Or is this a constant practice, a constant work to keep it tamped down as much as possible? You can eradicate it. I wouldn't use the word cure because that might also reinforce potentially the myth that imposter syndrome is not curable. You could, and you can eradicate it, if you are prepared to do a certain type of work. I guess it's worth mentioning that imposter syndrome, although we know why it's known as syndrome, it's not recognised as a clinical condition. It's not recognised as a clinical condition by the British Psychology Society. But as we said earlier, it feels real. It's a visceral thing stored in your body, and it can be detrimental to your overall well-being if left unchecked. You can eradicate it with constant practice and repetition. So, you've mentioned doing some work. Where do you start? What's the first thing to do? One of the reasons why imposter syndrome seems to be such a great challenge, almost incurable, to use your words, is because there is this tendency to think about imposter syndrome as one of those challenges that we can effectively deal with just by using our mindset. Mindset is brilliant. Mindset in the context of imposter syndrome can be really helpful. And even when I think about my own coaching conversations with clients, I tend to use a wide range of mindset techniques to help them develop better coping strategies. And if you're prepared to do the deep work, because that's really what can help you eradicate imposter syndrome, you also need to incorporate into your toolkit, into your practice, body-based work. Because imposter syndrome is a subconscious fear-based response, processed by the primal part of your brain that wants to keep you safe. And all of this happens under your level of awareness before your mindset gets involved. So, if we just want to deal with imposter syndrome just by using cognitive tools, it will work temporarily because we are not addressing the fear-based response which has been stored in the body. Okay. So, if I've understood what you said, it's not enough just to use a mindset tool, and we can come on in a sec to talk about what that might be. There's also dealing with how it shows up within the body. And so, there are tools there which deal with physical responses, not just mental responses. Is that right? That's correct. Imposter syndrome is a fear-based response. So, whenever I struggle with imposter syndrome, I tend to think thoughts that come from a place of fear. And those thoughts which are fear-based, those stories that I tell myself that I'm not good enough, or that I'm not as intelligent or talented as other people think I am, or I am not as creative or talented as other people in my field, and there are many other stories I can tell myself, particularly on a subconscious level, all of that leads the body to get flooded with the so-called stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol. And whenever my body gets flooded with stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol, that in itself will trigger a chain of unsupportive thoughts, which will trigger certain emotions, which will feed those unsupportive thoughts. And all of that will basically trigger the fight, flight, freeze, or fall response of the body's nervous system. Every time we think unsupportive thoughts, every time we think imposter syndrome-driven thoughts, we are building new neural pathways in the brain. All of that changes the neurology. Therefore, we will have an autopilot response for a particular trigger. So, the body gets addicted to those stress hormones as a result of those stories, of those beliefs that we have whenever we struggle with imposter syndrome. So, dealing with imposter syndrome just by using the conscious mind, dealing with imposter syndrome just by using cognitive tools is not enough, because the mind won't be in an empowering place until we tell the body it's safe, until we train the body's nervous system to go back to a state of balance. Okay. So, you can basically do as much mindset work as you like, if the body is not responding in alignment with what the mind is trying to tell it, then the mindset work isn't going to work. Yes. So, it can work, and it does work temporarily. But then, there's also some research showing that people who only do mindset work to deal with imposter syndrome tend to beat themselves up. Therefore, what they are doing is, they are worsening their own imposter syndrome experience. And that's also why traditional coaching is not enough because it's not about mindset. It's a subconscious fear-based response. It's an identity-level issue whenever we struggle with imposter syndrome. Therefore, we need to consider the body on the journey before we deal with imposter syndrome cognitively speaking. I'm sure that there are a whole range of different things that people can try. But I'd love it if you were able to give one practice which someone at home can try in relation to the physical aspect, and one practice that someone can try in relation to the mindset aspect. One practice, and this makes me smile, because whenever I share this also with the people I work with, whether it's through coaching sessions or through workshop facilitation, one of the practices is breathing. We may think, you know, we know how to breathe, but really we don't. And particularly when we struggle with imposter syndrome, have those repeated fear-based thoughts. Therefore, our breathing may be shallow or fast. So, just being conscious of the way we breathe and slowing down the breathing can help us. So, one of the practices could be box breathing when you inhale with your nose for four seconds, then you hold your breath for another four seconds, and then you exhale through your mouth for another four seconds. So, that's something that you could do. There are many other, as you may also know, there are many other techniques from a breathing point of view you can use. Box breathing is just one of those. But I would also add, particularly for those people who might be completely new to breathing and deep breathing, particularly when it comes to those deep breathing techniques, applying techniques like box breathing might actually be detrimental to their overall well-being because it might be a shock for their body's nervous system to suddenly take a deep breath in and out. Therefore, just slowing down your breathing could be an initial good practice for you to help the body go back to a place of balance, so that the mind can become less noisy and more supportive for the work you might need to do. Okay. And just slowing down the breathing, the effect of that physically is things like reduced cortisol levels and that sort of thing? That's correct. Yes. By just by slowing down your breathing, you would reduce the stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol, but also, there is an element of mindfulness, but it's not just about applying mindfulness to your daily practice, this is also something that neuroscience has proved. Just by slowing down your breathing and potentially allowing yourself to gradually engage with deep breathing, what you're doing is, you are gradually detaching from the amygdala, which is the emotional part of the brain. That's where you have the fear response. So, whenever you struggle with imposter syndrome, your amygdala, the primal part of your brain, which is responsible for your survival, is highly activated. So, just by slowing down your breathing, what you're doing is, you are gradually deactivating your amygdala response, and you are reconnecting with the prefrontal cortex. So, this is something that can help you become more creative, but also more solution-focused. And also, because we are talking about your prefrontal cortex, we are also talking about that part of your brain which is responsible for emotional regulation. So, that's also how we train the body's nervous system to be safely regulated. So, that's a physical practice that someone can try. What about a mindset practice? And I'd be interested to know if you've got one that's kind of like a tool you can use in any kind of situation. So, regardless of how imposter syndrome might be presenting itself, whether there's like a go-to, I don't know, almost like an emergency tool that you can just get out the toolkit, and that'll help you in whatever situation you're in. One that I have in mind, which I also often encourage clients to practice, is cognitive diffusion. Basically, there are many ways in which you can dispel unsupportive, unhelpful thoughts. And this is something that you can apply to imposter syndrome, but also more generally, whenever you have unsupportive, unhelpful thoughts that might hold you back. You can sing it out. So, whenever you have an imposter syndrome thought, you can turn it into a song. So, that might feel awkward at the beginning, but what you're doing is, you're telling your brain whatever is happening is not serious. We don't need to pay attention. So, this is one way to trick your brain into believing that whatever it is happening, in this case, whatever you're thinking is just a thought. There is no need for you to pay attention to this thought. Otherwise, you will just amplify whatever type of thought you're having. So, you can turn it into a song, you can slow it down, or you can use the third person. Just to give you an example, let's say I'm having a thought of not being good enough. So, I could say, once I've slowed down my breathing, and I gradually feel better or slightly better physically speaking, then I might say, 'I'm noticing that Massimo is thinking of not being good enough. Or I'm noticing that Massimo is noticing that he is thinking of not being good enough.' Just by doing this, we are reinforcing the activity in our prefrontal cortex. So, all of this, particularly if it's new, can feel awkward, it might make us smile, but this is how we can train the brain to approach whatever we are thinking as a passing cloud. Because the problem is not the thought. It's not about having negative thoughts, or it's not about not having negative thoughts. The issue arises when we identify with those negative thoughts. The issue arises when we let those thoughts control us. So, just the singing one. So, you know, let's say that, I don't know, my boss has given me a report to write, and for whatever reason, I don't feel like I'm able to. I mean, clearly, my boss thinks that I can and I've got the tools, but for some reason, I don't feel like I can. Is it me singing to myself, 'I can't write this report', and doing it that way? Is that one of the techniques that you're saying? That's right. Yes. So, if you have a favourite song, or if you have a favourite melody, you can turn that thought into your favourite song or your favourite melody. And just by doing that, you will make it less and less and less serious, to the point that your body will feel even better, and your brain won't pay attention to that thought. So, how is that not reinforcing? If the thought is, 'I can't write this report', and then I start singing it to a particular tune, how does that disperse it rather than reinforce the thought? Because whenever you reinforce the thought, it's because you're resisting the thought by pushing away, or because you're really feeling worried, you're really feeling scared. And that also amplifies your internal critical dialogue. If you allow yourself to sing it, to turn it into a song, it will just make it less serious. And so, there is evidence showing that you might even laugh about it, you might even catch yourself smiling, which will decrease the stress response in your body. Therefore, you are preparing your brain to make space for a different choice. So, that's where you can show yourself some sort of micro courage to think a different thought. And so, you slow down your breathing, or you engage with many other body-based techniques, including other different breathing techniques, then you can use some mindset techniques, including the ones I've shared with you, because this will help you not only change the structure of your thought, but also, this will help you change the relationship with your thoughts. So, by turning it into a song, your relationship with that thought will be different, and it won't be coming from a place of fear. Okay. So, what I'm hearing is an acknowledgment. So, whether it's the singing or whether it's, like you described, talking to yourself in the third person, it's not about trying to suppress or chase the thought away, but it's trying to bring it to the fore so you can actually see it there in front of you and deal with it that way. That's correct. Yes. And actually, what you just said is important. Because when you allow yourself to see the thought in front of you, what you're doing is, you're stepping into the observer role, which means that you are taking a healthy distance from the primal part of your brain which is responsible for your survival. So, you are decreasing the survival response, and you are increasing the prefrontal cortex response, which will help you feel more regulated. And once you feel more regulated, then with your conscious mind, you can make a different choice. And a different choice is what do you want to think instead. And so, that's how you can use your mindset to deal with imposter syndrome, by creating space for empowering, supportive thoughts to help you achieve whatever goal is important to you or whatever you want to create. And I feel like if you're in a space where you can, so maybe not in the middle of an open plan office, that it might be best whatever you do physically to vocalise this. So, whether you actually sing this song to yourself or whether you actually physically say to yourself, 'I'm noticing that Jeremy is whatever it is doing', then, yeah, actually, saying it out loud and not just in your head could be a good thing. Is that right? That's right. Yes. It doesn't make any difference, because your subconscious mind doesn't know what is real and what is imagined. The brain doesn't know the difference between what is real and what is imagined. So, you can sing it out loud, or you can use the other techniques, even by saying that to yourself, because that will still have an impact on your subconscious. I'd love to just finish with an example of a practical success story. So, maybe this is a client, maybe it's even you, yourself, the sort of before and after of what imposter syndrome was doing before and what it looked like once it had been eradicated or whatever. So, yeah, what example can you give of that? So, an example that comes to mind is about a client whose imposter syndrome experience was holding them back from speaking up in team meetings. Whenever there was an opportunity for them to speak up in those team meetings, or whenever they wanted to share their ideas in those team meetings, we identified some early warning signs of that imposter syndrome experience, including hand sweating, their voice becoming more contracted, and also, by thinking certain thoughts. And that's something that deserved our attention, because whenever you deal with imposter syndrome, there's usually a conflict between your conscious mind and your subconscious mind. So, in this case, my client wanted to participate in those meetings, they wanted to share their great ideas, but there was a need, subconsciously speaking, for them to meet. And the need was all about safety, and more specifically, we identified, being protected from public criticism. So, we explored that, and through different kinds of techniques, including some of the techniques I shared with you, we identified a different kind of belief that translated into certain behaviours, certain thoughts, certain actions. And together, we explored a few ways in which, also by using this new empowering belief, they could turn their inner critic into their cheerleader. And so, as a result of that, my client took some micro-courageous actions. And, eventually, their ideas were shared during those meetings, to the point that now they are working on a project within the organisation, and it's one of those projects that will make a difference within the organisation. So, that means more visibility, more opportunities for you to shine, potentially a promotion. So, yeah, so that's one way in which you can gradually deal with imposter syndrome in a way that is effective, and also in a way that can help you improve your work experience. That's amazing. I love that story. For someone who wants to find out more, what resources can you suggest where they can learn a bit more about this subject? These are some resources I've also used to do my own research on the topic. I would definitely suggest the book by Pauline Clance, The Imposter Phenomenon, Overcoming the Fear That Haunts Your Success. I would also invite your audience to check out impostersyndrome.com because there are different kinds of resources to help them come up with some coping strategies, which will focus on mindset, and also, on the body's nervous system. And this is also why another source that I'd like to add is called How to Befriend Your Nervous System Using Polyvagal Theory. The author is Deb Dana, a clinician, consultant, and speaker specialising in complex trauma. And if someone wants to find you, where would you like them to go? I don't have a website. I do have a LinkedIn page. I'm on LinkedIn, Massimo Roselli. So, yes, that's where I am, and I'll be more than happy to help anyone who may be struggling with imposter syndrome. Links in the show notes as always. Massimo, thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation, fascinating subject. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Massimo Roselli. What I hadn't really thought about was this idea of getting the body and the mind into agreement. So, what Massimo was saying was that you can do the mind exercises, you can notice yourself having negative thoughts and trying to turn those around into positive thoughts, but if your body is disagreeing with that, then whatever you're doing with your mind might not necessarily be so effective. So, I really liked the simple techniques Massimo suggested, just slowing down your breathing, maybe trying box breathing, making sure you're trying to reduce the physical stress feelings that your body is experiencing at the same time as doing the mind work. It was also interesting hearing about the different ways that imposter syndrome can show up. Perfectionism was one which particularly resonated with me. I recently had a coaching conversation with a client who was doing twice as much work as he needed to do for an assignment because it was research-based. And he just wanted to keep on researching and researching and researching, just to make sure that he hadn't missed anything, when in reality he hadn't. What it seemed like was going on was this need to prove his worth, to prove that he had done all the work, so that he could present an absolutely waterside answer. As always, show notes for this episode are on the website, there at changeworklife.com/190, that's changeworklife.com/190, with the links to Massimo's LinkedIn profile and the resources mentioned in the interview. This is episode 190, which means that episode 200 isn't all that far away. That's currently scheduled for coming out in February, and I'd love your ideas. How can I mark 200 episodes? What would you like me to do? What would you like to hear? Love your ideas. You can get in touch with me at changeworklife.com/contact. That's changeworklife.com/contact. And yeah, give me your ideas. How would you like us to celebrate episode 200? In the meantime, we've got more episodes coming between now and then, so make sure you are subscribed to the show if you're not already, and I can't wait to see you next time. Cheers. Bye.