Relocating abroad: the essential guide to becoming an expat - with Nathan Cornwell of Nathan Cornwell Consulting

#191: Nathan Cornwell is an organisational psychologist and talent management consultant specialising in employability and leadership development.  He explains how to move to another country for work, the preparation you need to do before expatriating and how to plan for your eventual return.

What you’ll learn

• [01:47] How Nathan became an expert in the expat world.
• [05:14] The life events that lead to becoming an expat.
• [06:51] Different ways to move abroad to work.
• [07:56] How long people tend to be an expat for. 
• [10:13] The importance of planning for the future when moving abroad.
• [13:25] How colleagues and family treat you differently when you move abroad.
• [15:57] Preparation you need to do before expatriating.
• [21:05] What to ask for in your job relocation package.
• [24:47] The tax complications involved with working abroad.
• [27:40] Different bureaucratic challenges with becoming an expat.
• [30:00] How to figure out where to live when moving abroad.
• [32:35] The childcare options available for expats.
• [35:28] The options for spouses of partners who are expatriating.
• [40:30] How to meet like-minded people when you move abroad.
• [41:59] How to fully integrate yourself with a local culture.
• [45:28] The most common mistakes people make when they move abroad for a job.

Resources mentioned in this episode
Please note that some of these are affiliate links and we may get a commission in the event that you make a purchase.  This helps us to cover our expenses and is at no additional cost to you.

• The Devil's Advocate
• The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Steven Covey
• The Culture Map, Erin Meyer
• The High Performance Podcast

For the show notes for this episode, including a full transcript and links to all the resources mentioned, visit:

https://changeworklife.com/relocating-abroad-the-essential-guide-to-becoming-an-expat/

Re-assessing your career?  Know you need a change but don't really know where to start?  Check out these two exercises to start the journey of working out what career is right for you!

Transcript

0:00

What are the things to be thinking about when you've got the opportunity to work abroad? How do you find a place to live, set up utilities, set up bank accounts? How do you socialize somewhere where you might not just know anybody, but you might not even speak the language? That's what we're talking about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline and this is Change Work Life. Hello and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right place. It's a big world out there, and the opportunity may present itself for you to relocate to another country for work. It's potentially very exciting, but you'd probably have lots of questions. How do you know where to live? How do you settle in? How do you set up bank accounts, utilities, internet, and so on? If you have a partner and children, what about them? Will your partner work? What are the school options? To help answer all these questions and more, I'm joined this week by Nathan Cornwell of Nathan Cornwell Consulting. Nathan is an organisational psychologist and consultant who works with expats and international teams, including helping those who might be crossing borders and switching workplaces. Nathan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. Looking forward to the conversation today. Thank you. So, how did you come to specialize in this area, this kind of like cross border expat world? Yeah. So, there's a bit of a long version to this, and I was trying to tell you the quick version of it, but essentially, when I was about 22, I finished university with a kind of lack of an idea of what I wanted to do with my life. But I know I'm not alone in that, but it's something that you kind of have to figure out yourself in some respects. I took the opportunity to go travelling. So, I went backpacking in Australia and fell in love with the idea of travelling and exploring new places, getting to see new and exciting things that I hadn't experienced before being on the other side of the world to do it. So, during that trip, I made a conscious decision to find out other ways that I could start exploring and, working in different countries. I think that was the idea, to try and find opportunities to actually work and live in another country. So, I studied psychology, shortly after coming back from Australia as a master's, I was lucky enough to do it long distance and have that opportunity. But I needed to pay for it, and I needed the time to do it. So, that actually took me out to South Korea where I knew I could earn some money, fulfil that ambition to live abroad and also pay off the master's at the same time. So, I jetted off to South Korea for just over a year. And I was teaching English out there, which is actually aligned with the bachelor's that I'd done. So, it kind of made a little bit of sense, teaching English abroad, and it was one of the big jobs that popped up when you typed into Google what jobs can you do when you work abroad. So, I went for that. I didn't have much or very little teaching experience, to be honest. And it was evident from the start that I wasn't entirely sure what I was actually doing. You know, I was just sort of standing in front of loads of kids that couldn't really understand what I was saying. You know, it was a bit of an eye-opener. But gradually over time, I started to become a bit more competent at it. And I guess that comes with practice and experience. And then, fast forward later down the line, I actually moved to China for 6 years and did sort of a similar thing to begin with, but I made a transition into the consultancy world. And that was when I was working with the British Chamber. We kind of do employability-type workshops. Because at the same time, my master's in psychology was coming to an end. So, the thing with psychology is, you need to specialize in an area. So, I chose organisational psychology to specialize in, which was kind of fully aligned with the work I've been doing with the British Chamber. And at that point, I was then looking for opportunities within that sphere. And I found further opportunities to go to work and live in different other countries, consulting on different projects. And that's eventually taken me to the UAE, which is where I'm living and based now. So, retrospectively looking back at all these opportunities and experiences working and living abroad, and I would say I was developing this expertise in organisational psychology, which is all about making a workplace better for people. So, kind of combining the two was where my consultancy seemed to fit. And that's when I decided to work on supporting expats to develop their workplace success. And that's what my organisation and consultancy does. It delivers, expats with workplace success and also supports the organisations that are employing expats. So, that's the sort of long to short-ish answer to that question how I got here. So, when you're consulting with the individuals, what are the circumstances that give rise to the opportunities for them to move abroad? Yeah. So, there's kind of four stages to the expatriation process and where I might come in to support expats on a one-to-one basis. So, the first is the preparation phase that they've either been assigned a role abroad, or they're actively looking for a role abroad. So, that's what I call the preparation phase. The next phase is actually the onboarding phase. So, once you get to that new country, you've got to onboard, and this is one of the most stressful periods. You've got so much learning to do, so much cultural adjustment to deal with. And obviously, at the same time you're starting a new job, you might have family that have come with you. So, there's a lot of aspects during that period, which can be quite stressful. The next stage after that is what I call the performing stage. So, you've onboarded, and now you're ramping up. You're getting to a point where you want to be a high-performing employee in your organisation. You're still going through a lot of these challenges. Challenges haven't necessarily gone away. You've had time to manage them. Now you're trying to work around different challenges. It's kind of a level up, if you like. And then, the last point in time is a repatriation challenge. That's when you're potentially coming back to your home country, and that can be one of the hardest parts, speaking from personal experience, readjusting back to your own culture is a major challenge. It's often very much overlooked. So, it's kind of four points to the expat journey, and I guess there are different explanations for why you might want to start off that first part. You can go two ways. You can either go with a company, which can be a company you've worked at for some time as an opportunity abroad, and you need to move there. That can be one typical way of going abroad to work. The other way is, of course, the self expatriated way. This is the way that I've done quite a few times, kind of found a job myself and been expatriated over there to work. And then, there are challenges to both sides, but certainly, you're on your own a little bit in some respects because you're there to kind of culturate as best as possible, but without that support package around you. Unless the HRV organisations got it nailed down, but sometimes they don't really have it nailed down. I think that's another service I've tried to offer in some respects. So, yeah, it's going to be the yourself expatriating or going with the company, and then you've got these four stages to proceed through. So, when I get services, it's at one of these stages. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'd certainly be interested in diving into those four stages, but before we get to that, the repatriation, is it fairly typical when this situation arises that someone is going with a view to returning at some point, it's a temporary move? It's a great question. And I'm not sure everybody knows the answer. For instance, when I moved abroad to China, for instance, the plan was to go there for one year, come back. And yeah, it was about six or seven years that I spent, and that was never the plan, right? So, I guess even coming back, I didn't know at that time if I was going to come back, because I saw a form of this really settled life out there and quite enjoyed it. It was only during the pandemic when things became a little bit more extreme, that opportunity to come back, even just to visit, wasn't there, that kind of forced a lot of expats to repatriate, to at least look at different places to move to. So, it's a difficult one. Because, yeah, for many people, I'm sure they're not sure exactly how long they'll go out for. With an organisational expatriation, so where you're going with an organisation, that's a bit more arranged. In certain circumstances, there's a bit more kind of lifespan to it. So, you go there for two years, it might be a two-year contract, and then the idea is that you're repatriating back into the business. But certainly, if you go there by yourself, it can be a different range. I've met a lot of people in my experience as well. Some of those that have found wives or husbands in the new country, so they have ended up settling there without that intention originally. And I've also known them to bring their wives or husbands back to their own country, which I'm sure was never necessarily on the cards. I think that's just the luck of life sometimes. It can throw up anything at you. So, just trying to predict it can be difficult, unless you've got some certain criteria, such as a contract, or you've got certain life goals that you want to achieve that take you back home and that you're just going there for a short stint. So, I'm not sure if I answered your question in a black-and-white way, but I tried to shade over it with some grey. No. That's really interesting. And I suppose where it's like a fixed corporate assignment, and you're expecting it to last no more than two or three years, how important is it to have in mind, maybe when you're even starting out, what happens when the opportunity comes to an end? So, what happens at the end of that two- or three-year period? Yeah. I think that's a really important aspect to really consider before you move abroad because, especially as you start preparing, you're preparing to go to that new culture, but actually knowing what's going to happen when it finishes is also important. And I think, as I say, I've got this nailed down quite well in terms of just providing a bit of a vision to the individual expatriates and what that looks like, but I think there's a lot of organisations that certainly haven't considered the repatriation phase as much as they should be doing. So, that often can have a negative impact on the individual, especially as they start to get a bit closer to that end point. What are they thinking? Will my job be available when I come back? And you know, the logistical aspects of moving your things back. Then, of course, you've found and made friends in that new culture, so having to give them up is also hard work. It's almost like when you're expatriating itself, it's a difficult process. You're leaving your friends and the familiar circumstances behind, and it's a big change. And so, that's what organisations really need to do as much as possible to support their expat employees to deal with that change as much as possible and be able to navigate the uncertainty around it. You know, providing a kind of plan of re-onboarding, if you like, when they come back to the organisation, also setting up their organisation for the right circumstances, getting the employees that are in that home office to embrace and understand that there are expats coming back. I'm not saying a royal welcome, but just being on board with the idea that they've gone abroad and acquired new skills and knowledge, and they'll be keen to use this when they come back to the organisation. So, kind of giving them opportunity to use these skills and knowledge. I think on that point, careers are a big source of anxiety for people repatriating. And I did some research around this, it's about not understanding what it's going to be like when you come back, not having your knowledge and skills appreciated. And sometimes maybe you're almost degraded because you've spent time outside the country, you haven't been on the floor in that home country office. So, you're kind of almost having to reacquire the knowledge that you might've had before you left. So, again, the organisation needs to support that as much as possible to take away those concerns. And I guess there's things that individuals can do as well. So, if they know that it's going to be, say, a two-year assignment, then they can make sure that they continually touch base with wherever they're going to be going back to. So, I don't know, even if it's just picking up the phone and speaking to people every so often or just sending an email, making sure that they're aware that you're still there, you're still part of the team, and you're coming back and keeping up with what's going on that way. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's crucial. I mean, there's that saying that goes 'out of sight - out of minds', and I think that does happen when you move away. Even your friends and family, it feels like they've forgotten about you. Of course, you're still in their mind, but because you're not there every day like you perhaps were before, you're not necessarily in the loop all the time. I think, from a social point of view, maybe with your colleagues at the same time, when you do come back, you're trying to pick up the office anecdotes or what are the topics being spoken about, it's quite a hard and disjointed feeling when you've been out of the loop for a little while. It's like joining a conversation midway through. You're trying to pick up what people are talking about. And so, that's why it is important to make sure that you are constantly in contact with those back home, either in the workplace or with your friends and family, just to make sure that you haven't been forgotten about. And there's almost an expectation that you're the one that reaches out to them. I think that's what I've learned, that there's an onus on you as the expat. You're the one that's left, you're the one that's gone away, you need to be the one that makes the effort. And I think for the expat, it's almost like the other perspective. Why is nobody contacting me? Have they forgotten about me? You start feeling a bit sorry for yourself. But I think from a non-selfish point of view, you have to start reaching out to them. That's s the expectation. So, I think that's important. I think the other thing is, obviously, having those opportunities to fly back home. Going back to the example I used earlier when I was in China during the pandemic, we weren't able to leave. And I think that caused a lot of stress for expats out there. Just not having the option, missing out on things like weddings or birthdays or big events that they needed to attend, that really disconnected a lot of expats, and eventually, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of them. You know, they had to repatriate. So, just having these opportunities to fly back, and maybe the organisation, I don't know, provides the expats a few more holidays to be able to do that. I'm not saying that should be the answer to it, but just giving them the ability to come back a bit more frequently can help them not just personally, but also in their careers, just staying in the loop with what's happening in the home office about, you know, the market that really supports them. So, yeah, that's what I'd say for that one. Let's dig in a little bit more into the preparation. And I thought we might bring out my favourite avatar family that I've used a few times on the podcast before. So, we've got Tom who's a lawyer in his late thirties, his wife, Suzanne, and they've got a young daughter, Julia. And I think her age might change as we talk about the different scenarios, so what sort of childcare provision they might be looking for when they move. We're helping them with the things that they might need to figure out. So, Tom has got an opportunity to go to another office of his law firm in a different country, and maybe it's a fixed two-year assignment. Now, you've rather helpfully got an acronym of the preparation things to think about. So, I'd love it if we could maybe go through that. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I was looking at the research about expat challenges and came up with this acronym, which spells out the word FLAIR. And the idea is that if you accomplish all of these challenges or overcome them, then you can expatriate with flair. So, just going through them one by one, if we start with the F, the F is around Finances. So, obviously, there's a lot of financial implications to moving abroad. You've got things like tax to deal with. You've also got a need to have some kind of budget. If your company is not providing it, you need a budget to be able to afford the apartment or house that you're going to get when you move abroad. So, that's really important, taking care of your finances when you do move. The other aspect is the L, and the L stands for Logistics. So, logistics can be anything from moving and packing your boxes through to support and sourcing out of the house when you get abroad. So, it's kind of that aspect around just setting up things physically and making sure that everything's in order in that sense. The next one is A, and A, I've called Acquisition. And we talked about the onboarding part before, and it's a really big part of the expatriation process and quite stressful. And you will have to learn so much in such a short space of time, whether it's the culture, adjusting to the new culture, whether it's things in the new job, the new role, the organisation, the language, and then a lot of respects as well. I remember when I first arrived in China, not being able to order any food, because everything was in that local language, right, in Chinese, so it became very, very challenging. So, trying to overcome a lot of these learning acquisition aspects is problematic. But if you can, then that's full credit to your experience. The I is the Inner emotions. So, of course, this is going to be a stressful period as much as it is exciting. Some of this comes down to personality. So, again, in the research, they've shown that certain personalities are better equipped for this expatriation experience. But without going too much into the detail, we've got a personality trait called openness. So, that's someone who's very curious about the world, wanting to experience new things, and quite innovative as well in that nature. Versus some of the other end of the scale who are a little bit, they like kind of their own ways. They know what they like. They like being comfortable in their own habits, and a little bit rigid, but not in a negative sense, just at the other end of the scale, I would say. So, obviously, if you look at this personality trait, the ones that are a bit more open, a bit more curious, are going to enjoy the experience probably a little bit more, maybe adapt a little bit better. Having said that, there's perks, peaks and troughs to some of these personality scales. So, it's not to say anybody that doesn't like that, then they're not going to work out. But I guess you also think people at the high openness end are the ones that are going to be looking for these opportunities in the first place. But, yeah, there are some personality aspects that can help with that. And then, just finding strategies to control those inner emotions, that can be really helpful in getting you over the line in terms of onboarding. And then, the last one is around roles and relationships. So, it's kind of two things rolled up into one. In terms of the role, you have to have a clear understanding of what that role is. And some of what you'll find is that the job description doesn't always match what the job is on the ground. I know that's true. But certainly, once you've made a commitment to move abroad, it's harder just to move back when you find out that the job's completely different, especially if you've got all your family with you as well. So, understanding the role as much as possible, it's going to really help you understand the relationships, which is that second part. So, relationships, meaning things like your colleagues, who your managers are, maybe you're working in a multicultural environment now, you've got to try and work on how you navigate different relationships with different cultures and how you communicate effectively. Also, your family back home, we're getting to the previous question, how do you keep in contact with them and your friends. So, overcoming all of these aspects is what's going to really help you to get that expatriation success when you go abroad. Okay. Thank you for setting that out. There's no way we're going to be able to go through every aspect of each letter, but maybe let's touch on a few which might leap out to people. So, on the finance side, you mentioned relocation and, say this is an internal company relocation, Tom has been asked to go to another office and work there for two years, what are some of the things that Tom can ask for as part of the relocation package? What are the kinds of things that could be on the menu? Yeah. I mean, there's various things. Again, it depends on the company and the size of the budget they have, what they're willing to do. And that really weighs in on the success of the expatriation process a little bit as well. But if you were a global company, there might be more perks to support expats moving abroad. So, yeah, a couple of the ones, obviously, getting flights is important to fly out somewhere. That's not true of all contracts. I've certainly seen contracts where you're expected to pay for your own flights. In addition to that, you've got the things that you're moving with. So, especially if you've been in a stable home that you've got lots of stuff, and you want to just pick that up and move it to another country, then you have to negotiate with the company, whether they're going to be able to pay for all of the boxes. Because the other end is, they're going to have to bring it back at some point, potentially anyway. So, that's probably something that weighs on their mind when they calculate the finances. So, how much stuff can you bring aboard? What are the important things to take? In addition to that, you've got things that could cover, like medical insurance. I mean, that's the first very key, I think a lot of packages look at providing medical insurance. I think that's also maybe by employment law that they have to provide some of that. So, just making sure you've got some of these insurances covered. I know some companies that provide pet support. So, bringing your pets to another country is something that can happen. I haven't got many pets myself, but I know a lot of people can't bear to live without their dogs or cats. So, that can almost be a deal breaker for a lot of people. So, making sure that that's an option is something that companies could look to do, and maybe that's what Tom in this situation could try to negotiate. The other ones could be potentially around school fees. I know that we've talked about his daughter, Julia. School fees abroad can be quite expensive, especially in a lot of these international schools. So, I don't know how much a company will be willing to pay or cover the school fees, but if there's any support for that, that's something, again, that should be considered. And maybe that's where you start thinking about the salary that you're getting when you move abroad because, if they're not providing support in that, then it's going to come out of your salary. So, negotiating those types of aspects. And then maybe, any travel that occurs, we see in the new country, which also could be bonuses to travel to different countries. I know some companies provide certain airfares to different countries that can either be helpful for coming back to your home country if you're making a home visit or just if you go on holiday somewhere. I know in the UK, sometimes we move out to Asia, it's quite an interesting move because you've got all these Asian countries you've never necessarily had the opportunity to visit before. Now, they're on your doorstep. So, you're quite keen to go and explore all of these different countries. So, maybe that's another perk that could be introduced. I don't know if I've covered everything that you can think of. Let me know, and see if I've had any contracts with that. The other one you've mentioned, which I definitely don't want to dwell on, but I thought could be worth bearing in mind is tax. My experience is that no matter how simple your circumstances are, once you start introducing two countries into the equation, so maybe Tom is still a tax resident in the UK, and also he ends up being a tax resident for two years in another country, it can get really tricky figuring out where you're supposed to file returns, on what you're supposed to pay tax and where. I mean, is it as complicated as I think it is? And what can Tom do to get on top of that and also not end up spending a fortune in professional fees for a simple situation? Yeah. That's a good question. I haven't myself had any sort of bad experiences in terms of tax, having to get double taxed or anything like that. I think there are professional advisors out there, and I think some of them are not as expensive as maybe we would think. So, reaching out to them, obviously, would be a good place to start. I think it's sometimes just better to be safe than sorry. And I think if you start that process early, I think even reaching out to them before you move abroad would be a good point to work out what's the cost-benefit to actually going abroad, and what do I need to look out for? I think, certainly if you're planning to come back to the UK quite regularly, that's a concern that you need to think about. Because I think if you spend so many days in the UK per year, that puts you in this bracket of potentially getting double taxed. So, just getting clear on all of these aspects is quite important as early as possible before you make the move. If you make the move, then you try to work it from there. It can be a bit more tricky. But yeah, I guess, just on this point, I think transferring money, for instance, can be complicated for certain countries. I know when I was in China, it was a bit of a hassle. You had to go to the bank, you had to provide lots of identity, you had to show that you're paying tax in that country, you had all these forms that were in Chinese again. So, trying to negotiate with a bank teller that only really spoke Chinese made this process quite drawn out. So, it was always a joke between the expats. You know, I've got to go to the bank today, and it's going to be a good four hours I'm going to spend in there just trying to transfer a bit of money back. So, yeah, depending on the countries that you go to, that's also a consideration. You know, how are you going to transfer money back? What's your plan for that? I know some companies that actually pay in UK Sterling, but for certain employees that, obviously, depends on the contracts they've got, the situation, the rim, but that might also deal with that tax element as well. I'm not sure of the ins and outs of that, but that's something that is certainly worth considering. And you touched on another aspect there, which is bureaucracy. So, just opening bank accounts, setting up utilities, getting Internet. I know that some countries are more bureaucratic than others. But do you have any kind of general tips just for getting that kind of stuff, which seems like it should be basic, but isn't always that basic getting all that set up? Yeah. It's part of the merry-go-round of expat life. It's one of the things that you encounter quite early on because you're trying to set everything up at once, and things are not quite as straightforward as you might expect. So, you sort of have to be a little bit resilient and patient with the process. But in terms of getting things sped up, or at least getting things as smooth as possible, again, that relies on having somebody that's local or at least very knowledgeable of that market to take you through that process. An example, in the UAE, you have to get what's called an Emirates ID card, and you can only then rent somewhere to live once you've got that card. So, it was a little bit of a waiting game because you have to patiently wait for it until you can actually find somewhere to live. And obviously, you want to get somewhere to live pretty quickly, so that you can get set up and get working and get adjusting as quickly as possible. So, it's a little bit frustrating, you know, some of these things are just a waiting game. But I think once you've got a good HR adviser, or at least somebody that is there from the company to help you, then that's pretty good in terms of support. Trying to do this kind of stuff yourself is really difficult, I will admit. Obviously, yeah, depending on the culture you've gone through, but I would always advise getting someone to support you, because I've tried that route as well, but it takes a lot longer, and it frustrates you even more. So, trying to make your life as easy as possible early on is a good thing to do. And finding somewhere to live. I mean, that's another key aspect, especially here where we've got Tom, Suzanne, and Julia. So, they're a family unit. And I mean, I guess, unless they have the opportunities to fly out and start looking around a few properties before the big move, then assuming that a company doesn't already have something lined up, you know, some kind of a corporate let, I mean, how do they figure out where to live? I mean, what's a good area in the city they're moving to? What's a bad area? What's a fair price for properties? What's something that is going to suit them? Yeah. That's another excellent question. My experience kind of leans into the fandom. It's a bit of an experiment when you're first arriving in another country. I think that the advice I give is, obviously, trying to ask as many people as possible and suggestions. That can be overwhelming in itself, because everyone's kind of got their own biases about where you should live. But generally speaking, they'll give you good advice on what to look out for, what not to look out for. So, speaking to as many people as possible would be really helpful. I think in terms of directly speaking with HR, sometimes they're helpful. They might even have an agent that's attached to their company that they can send you to. But that's also a little bit of a danger, because if you've only got one agent, and they sometimes know how much you're earning, they know your salary, they're going to ramp up the price of the rents to kind of match that. So, you have to be a little bit careful with HRs that are just proposing one agent. And I guess doing a little bit of market research, getting a feel for different houses, different prices, and you start to get an understanding of the market. It's quite difficult when you, obviously, first arrive. Because as I say, you're trying to get somewhere pretty quickly, so you can start adjusting as much as possible. But if you can be a little bit more patient, you can then sort of get a feel for what the market price is, get a feel for what are the things that you'd like and don't like. And then, at that time, you've also had a bit of time to experience the city, see where some nicer areas are, some not so nice areas are. You also have to, obviously, take a cab that commutes to work and how are you going to get there. If you're getting a car or taxi, you know, trying to work that bit out, but it does take a little bit of time to experiment with some different places. I think when I was in Beijing, I lived there six years, and I moved around quite consistently, I was trying to do short-term contracts, so that was kind of my answer to it. I was trying to find somewhere that we give you a short contract there. That way, you know, if something went wrong, I could easily move. I was trying to buy myself a little bit more time. But yeah, with short-term contracts, you can pay a little bit more. Sometimes it reduces the choices that you've got. So, it is a challenge, but, yeah, with a bit of patience, a bit of time, you can find somewhere that's nice. You can find the perfect one with persistence. Let's talk about the family aspects. So, Suzanne and Julia. So, the move is motivated by Tom's work and that opportunity. We can come on to Suzanne in a sec. And obviously, if Julia is below school age, then Suzanne just can do the child care, that would be an option. But let's say that she doesn't want to. So, if we start with preschool childcare, what might that look like in their situation? Yeah. It can come in varying formats. I know, obviously, there are a lot of international schools that might be able to cover preschool age. So, that's one route to get your child into it, especially if Tom, I'm assuming he's from the UK, that might be the best initial option for him and his family to put his child into an international school. They're likely to speak English, for instance, so they'll be able to follow a UK curriculum at that point. If it's just something to kind of child mind, if you like, there are lots of other options. So, you've got private nanny-type care, daycare centres. You've got nannies themselves that can come to the house. I know a lot of people here, for example, have a private nanny that comes in for the support and looks after the child. And so, obviously, that can be stressful for parents because they're looking for a nanny that they can trust and go away to work and feel secure in the knowledge that the nanny is looking after the child. And I know I've heard some stories of people installing cameras all around their house just to make sure that the nanny's treating the baby okay. But it can be a bit of an anxious period of time for parents, but I think again, there's lots of options, especially at that age, and it's about exploring something that makes sense, I would say, to the parents. Okay. And if you're looking a bit older, let's say Julia is seven, eight, nine, something like that, so school age, so you mentioned international schools, presumably that's one possibility. Yeah, absolutely. International school is a good possibility. I think that's one of the most common ones that I'm aware of. I know a few people that managed to send their child into a public system, which is a little bit more challenging, because I think, depending on the country that you're in, now, obviously, they're teaching in a different language. And I think it's a good cultural experience, for sure, for your kid. But at the same time, it's probably quite hard for them, because everybody around you speaking completely different languages, how do you integrate? And I know some kids might be good at socializing and embracing that. But I know there might be other kids that will feel withdrawn and, obviously, no parent wants to cause that emotional upset to their children. So, international schools tend to be the way forward with that. That's where I see most parents sending their child. And what about Suzanne? And as I say, this move has been motivated by Tom's job. It might be that she doesn't need to work. But on the other hand, especially if Julia is at school, she's got to find ways to fill her days. So, what might her options be? Yeah. Do you know what? This is like one of the biggest challenges for the whole expatriation process, that the spouse, either the husband or the wife, whoever is not actually sponsored to do that move abroad, is the one that's kind of left with having to change their career on behalf of the other half. And obviously, if they've got a child, maybe they're left with the childcare. Now, that's not a bad thing, but maybe they're not used to that. And then, having to be a stay-at-home parent the first time, it can be quite a shock. And obviously, at the same time, I know they're not having those opportunities to socialize as much, especially when they're first setting out, they're going to find their own friends, find opportunities to get out there and get out of the house, have a reason to get out of the house. So, I know the spouse contributes a lot to whether that expatriation process is successful. So, organisations need to look at that and see what they can do to provide support for the spouse. Whether that's setting up a community, for example, that spouses can connect with them, or having events that obviously the spouse can come or the husband or wife to that, that can get them integrated into society as much as possible. Because that ultimately reduces the stress and the pressure on the individual that's been sponsored to expatriate, because they're going to face a lot of pressure themselves, right? They've lifted up their family essentially from a stable life to come and live in a different country, and they've got to make it work. And if you're facing all of these challenges in the workplace, and you're also coming home to challenges, it's going to be really stressful. So, finding ways to support the spouse is really, really important. I think for that spouse in terms of work, there are solutions to it. I think they can find a visa that suits them in terms of being able to find work themselves. And especially if they're very career-motivated themselves, maybe that's what they want to do. They want to find a job or find something remote that they can start off with and perhaps work from the UK and deal with it that way. But it's trying to prepare all that ahead of time and anticipate it as much as possible. So, yeah, different families face different challenges. So, for Suzanne, it depends on her circumstances and how well she's able to adapt. Yeah, that's what I'd say. I've gone through my mind, the film The Devil's Advocate, which I don't know whether you have ever seen that, with Keanu Reeves, Al Pacino, and Charlize Theron, where it is not about going to another country, but it's about Keanu Reeves joining a law firm in New York, and Charlize Theron, who has been a high powered real estate agent, is suddenly left not knowing what to do. And so, she gets in with all the other, in this case, wives of the other lawyers, and basically, they just spend their time shopping, and it drives her nearly crazy. So, I guess that's the thing that Suzanne's going to have to have a good thinking, maybe get coaching herself on what's going to work for her so that she is also fulfilled. And as you say, I mean, it could be the other way around. It could be Suzanne's moving for the job, and Tom's the one who needs help with, whichever way it is. Yeah. I think, in the research I've done over the last few years around careers, I think careers have become very central to our lives, in the sense that when we are introducing ourselves, we introduce ourselves by our career. It's almost part of our identity. So, to go from having a career and then to not having anything can be quite emotionally traumatizing to that individual. And of course, you wanting to find something to keep your inner drive going, so you might find yourself in a situation where that inner drive burns out in a way. And that's, again, the danger of this expatriation process. You don't want that to happen to either you or the spouse, because that's when they'll start saying,'Let's go back home.' So, it's about supporting them as much as possible. Having said all that, I do know there are wives and husbands that come out with their partners and really enjoy the time abroad. They enjoy the free time that they've got. So, it's experiencing new things, and there's certainly plenty of things going on, especially in some of these cities throughout the day. You've got yoga classes, you've got coffee meetups, shopping that can take place, and things in the evening, you know, salsa dancing, sports. There's plenty of ways to keep yourself busy at the same time, if that's what you're looking for. I guess that's ultimately what it is. It's kind of what your purpose is, what kind of period in life you are, and what you're looking to do. Yeah. And I guess if you're moving somewhere where there is already a large expatriate community, then you're not going to be the only one. There's going to be lots of people around you from whom you can get support and ideas and friendships. Yeah, absolutely. And jumping onto the social media platforms, that's a good way to meet like-minded people. I've always thought, when it comes to meeting like-minded people, you gravitate towards people of your nationality. So, for Brits, we're a little bit lucky in the sense that there's a lot of Brits abroad. You can always go on Facebook, for example, and search 'Brits Abroad Abu Dhabi', for instance, and quite a few groups will pop up. And that's probably a good way to find people in a similar boat to you. And again, having somebody in a similar boat to you is really important because they express the same challenges and empathize with your needs. The work I do is based on that. I've lived this life abroad, and so, when I speak to my clients, I can empathize and understand exactly what they mean when they talk about these challenges. We get strategies together on how to overcome them. So, it's about finding like-minded people, people who have lived that life, who know what you're going through, and can reason with you about what's happening. It's important to find your tribe in that sense. Have you ever seen someone who's gone out for, say, a two-year period, but who's made a concerted effort to go as native as they can? So, learn the language, establish local friends, maybe even send their kids to a local school where they do teach in a different language. Yeah. I've met quite a few people who have done that. A good friend of mine, after his first year in Beijing, moved down to the south of China where it was really native in the sense that there weren't many expats there. He had this ambition to get fluent in his Chinese. And I think he accomplished that and integrated with the culture quite well. You have to be very proactive. You have to be quite brave to do that. You have to be confident and comfortable in yourself to be able to go off into the native country and be able to make friends and deal with those awkward situations that occur when you're misaligned on cultures. Not that they're awkward in a bad way, but it's not as naturally free-flowing as with someone from your own culture. So, I know a few people who have done that. I know a family when I was in Korea, the young one, I think he was about three, went to a preschool in Korea. So, he couldn't speak English at that point, but he started learning bilingually, Korean and English, which was quite interesting to see because at dinner he'd be saying one word in English, one word in Korean. It was almost like an experiment in some way. And I think the ambition of the parents was to get him speaking bilingually. I think that helped him to grow, learn, and be educated. When you're that age, you're naive to some of the steps and probably don't experience it as stressfully as we would do as adults going forward. So, yeah, I know a few people that have tried to go off the expat trail and try to be a bit more native, try to make friends consciously with the locals as much as possible. In my own experience, I'm a bit middle of the ground in that sense. I don't just stick to the expat community because I know people who do that, they come abroad, and they're expecting everything to be like it was in their home country. Whereas I'm a bit more willing to embrace the cultural norms and what's happening and see it from that perspective. But I do enjoy being with the expat community because you can then have these conversations with somebody that you can empathize with and understand and have a joke with. They know the same TV shows that you've watched, the same football teams that you support. They’ve had these experiences as well, these cultural challenges, shall we say, moving to that culture, you can see the cultural differences combined and laugh and joke about it. So, I’ve always taken a middle-of-the-ground approach, bit of both, integrate but also keep with your own expat community. So, we haven't had time to go through all aspects of your FLAIR acronym. But what I would like to know is, maybe in relation to anything that we haven't covered, what are maybe one or two of the most common mistakes that you see someone like Tom and his family make when they're moving for a job? Or perhaps what are one or two things that they really should do, that quite a lot of times people don't do? Yeah. The biggest one, I think, must be the preparation aspects, just taking that time to prepare, not just in terms of looking at a culture book or a profile of that country. It's a bit more about mental preparation and how you're going to react to being in another country. And to a certain extent, sometimes you don't know how you're going to react until you actually get out there. So, a lot of senior leaders, for example, are often chosen based on the skills they have. You know, they've performed very well in the companies they're in, but that's been within their own culture. You take that person, you put them in another country, they've got all these stressful aspects churning through them. They're not going to perform as well, all the time anyway. So, it's a bit of a struggle for certain individuals. So, that preparation phase is really key, just trying to anticipate what are some challenges I might face, what have I done previously that's been a challenge, have I been on holiday, for instance, and found the food in the hotel wasn't quite what I was expecting? You know, how can I then navigate around that challenge? Do I need to pack some other ingredients or foods? You know, what am I going to miss when I go abroad? The other thing was, financially, I think you have to be in a good stable position going abroad as well. When I went to China, I wasn't necessarily in that position because I was paying off masses, and I went out there thinking, wow, I'll start earning some money pretty quickly and then be able to pay for everything and live a normal life. However, when I did get out there, I didn't expect the five months of rent I needed to pay upfront with an extra month for the agency fee. So, you're almost putting six months of rent away in your first month. Had I known that previously, I would have saved up a little bit more, and then, you know, I had to live hand-to-mouth for a few weeks while I waited for my salary package. So, yeah, the preparation phase is a big one. I think the other one is relationships. So, yeah, relationships are key to life anyway, right? Key to the happiness of life and being fulfilled. So, just maintaining those relationships you've got back home, maintaining the friendships that you've got as best as possible, but also being willing to meet new people. I mean, that's one of the reasons you go abroad, to meet new people, meet people from different cultures, and just being willing to embrace that as much as possible is something that a family needs to embrace, especially if they're moving just the three of them, and they need to find social connections, find things outside of work. Also, for the person that's been sponsored to move out there, get along with your colleagues, try to find out as much as possible about them, try to understand their cultures, where they’ve come from, what brought them to that country. You know, if you're working with other expats, what are their motivations? What are their communication styles? There's so many things that you have to try and navigate through, but doing as much as possible, being as proactive as possible is really important. Yeah, one of my favourite books is by Stephen Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and rule number one is about being proactive. And I try to live by that mantra, especially when moving abroad, being proactive about relationships, trying to meet as many people as possible. So, those are the two keywords that I can think of. I think the other one, this is a slightly philosophical one, but in the sense that you try to learn as much as you can from the experience. You only live once, and while that sounds pessimistic, having these opportunities to move abroad and get to see our life through different lenses is something not everybody experiences. You know, because everyone is used to living in their own country, they never get an opportunity to see what it's like to live in a different way. And I know you can go on holiday to countries and experience it like that for a couple of weeks, but it's not the same as living somewhere, having to culturally adapt to a different place. So, just appreciating that as much as possible and learning from that about yourself and about the way you want to live going ahead, I think, is really important, and it puts you in good stead going forward. So, you mentioned the Stephen Covey book. Are there any other resources that people could check out if they want to find out more about any aspect of what we've talked about? Well, one big one is, one resource I really like is called The Culture Map by Erin Meyer. It’s a book I read several years ago, and it's based on some research around culture and cultural differences. It really plans out these different constructs of culture on eight different continuums and measures how different countries land on these continuums. So, it might be communication, for example, where the Brits land in comparison to the US, in comparison to those in China. And it explains a lot of the issues you have when you move abroad and try to communicate in a multicultural team. How do you talk on the same page, and how is everybody getting misaligned with what they’re saying? It explains how to go about adapting the way you communicate to solve some of these issues. It talks about various different things. I just think it's a really cool book in terms of understanding cultures and how they're different, and especially if you’ve lived somewhere else, you can sit and start making sense of a lot of things you play back in your mind. That’s why I really enjoyed reading that book. The other one, not to give too many extra resources, but he other one is the High Performance podcast. I started listening to that during the pandemic, and it was a huge confidence builder. I just enjoyed learning about what high performance meant for other people, for celebrities, for sportspeople, and what I could take from that to apply to my own life to help me at work and in the workplace. I often feel like we’re sometimes sportspeople trying to perform as best as possible to drive the company forward. So, I think that’s something I really took away from that podcast. So, they're two big ones, I'll leave you with two, and yeah, hopefully you enjoy them. Where would you like to send people if they want to find you? Yeah, sure. So, if you want to find out a little bit more about what I do, I've got my LinkedIn page. You can follow me at Nathan Cornwell. I've also got my website, which is nathancornwellconsulting.com. You can find out a bit more about the services I offer and also a little bit more about me. And feel free to take my email of that website, which is nathan@nathancornwellconsulting.com. If you want to reach out, send me a message. I'm more than happy to have a conversation. I'm always doing research about expats, so if there are any expats out there that want to get in touch and help me understand more about what it's like to be an expat and what are the challenges they face, I’d really love to hear from you. So, yeah, that'd be the best way to reach out. Awesome. Well, Nathan, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it and really enjoyed the conversation, Jeremy. So, yeah, looking forward to continuing. Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Nathan Cornwall. What was clear from the conversation with Nathan is that there's a lot to think about, and we probably tend to focus on particular things at the expense of others. I know that my mind would probably immediately turn to some of the very practical things, like opening bank accounts and setting up utilities and that kind of thing, and I probably wouldn't think all that much necessarily about, say, social life until later on in the journey. But I also like the fact that Nathan highlighted the importance of openness and curiosity. There's that word again, curiosity. I think that's my word of the year. For this kind of experience to work, you've got to be open to possibility and willing to try things out. Sure, there's lots to organize; sure, there are lots of things to do. But by getting out there and having a go rather than worrying about what to do, that's going to be the way to make this enjoyable and successful. Show notes as usual are on the website at changeworklife.com/191. That's changeworklife.com/191. And we're into the 190s, which means episode 200 is not that far away. And I'd really like to design episode 200 with your help. So, tell me, what ways do you think that I should mark the occasion of 200 episodes? I'd love to have your ideas. So, drop me a line using the contact form on the website, changeworklife.com/contact. Or, if you're subscribed to my email list, you can always just reply to one of those emails. Let me know what your ideas are for me to celebrate reaching 200 episodes. In the meantime, we've got a really interesting episode coming up for you in two weeks' time. Earlier this year, I did a course all around neurodiversity in coaching, which made me realize just how little I know about neurodiversity, and that's the subject we're going to be exploring in two weeks' time. If you work anywhere with more than twenty people, then there is a very good chance that at least one of your number has some kind of neurodiversity. So, the next episode is going to be very informative and, I think, very practical. So, make sure you have subscribed to the podcast so you don't miss it, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.