Should you become a line manager? How to decide if it’s right for you - with Joanne Merrick of The Leadership Recipe Artwork

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Should you become a line manager? How to decide if it’s right for you - with Joanne Merrick of The Leadership Recipe

June 17, 2025 • Jeremy Cline/Joanne Merrick • Episode 208

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#208: Joanne Merrick is the founder of The Leadership Recipe and has over 25 years of global experience in helping individuals and organisations thrive. She explains the different types of management, what you need to consider before moving to a managerial position, and the skills managers need to have.

What you’ll learn

[02:14] The importance of understanding what a managerial role entails.
[04:29] Do you have to become a manager to climb the corporate ladder?
[06:11] Different types of management.
[07:01] The types of tools and systems that can be managed.
[09:14] The role of a manager in achieving company cohesion.
[10:40] Common misconceptions people have about management positions.
[13:36] The difference between leadership and management.
[17:31] How to operate between paradigms.
[18:44] What you need to consider before moving to a managerial position.
[20:20] The reasons people want to become a manager.
[23:30] The mindset managers need to have and the realities of a management role.
[24:59] The most important skills managers need to have.
[27:26] The emotional intelligence you need as a manager.
[29:35] How to improve your management skills.
[32:58] How to put yourself forward for a management position.
[34:33] How to divide your time as a line manager.
[40:57] How managers can get the best out of their team.
[43:10] How to manage the shift in relationship dynamics when you move from being someone’s colleague to being their boss.

Resources mentioned in this episode
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For the show notes for this episode, including a full transcript and links to all the resources mentioned, visit:

https://changeworklife.com/should-you-become-a-line-manager-how-to-decide-if-its-right-for-you/

Re-assessing your career? Know you need a change but don't really know where to start? Check out these two exercises to start the journey of working out what career is right for you!

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When you start to manage people, you're going to become the topic of their dinnertime conversations. So, what do you want them to say about you? Do you even want them to talk about you at all? If you want to find out whether line management is the right career move for you, then this is the episode you need to listen to. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life. Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the show where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm a career coach, and in each episode, my guests and I bring you tips, strategies and stories to help you enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life. Moving into a management role often seems like a logical career step. But what does it actually mean to be a manager? If you're promoted on the basis of technical expertise, what skills do you need to acquire to be an effective manager? And what's the difference between a good manager and a good leader? My guest this week is Joanne Merrick, a leadership development expert with over 25 years experience. She has helped grow the people at small mom and pop businesses like Deloitte and Amazon. You might have heard of them. Her book, Game On! Is Management Your Best Career Play?, helps readers decide whether to step into management. Joanne, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Jeremy. Great to be here. So, I've got loads of questions, so I'd just like to get on with it and go straight to those, if that's all right. Let's do it. I do like to let folks know that I have an Australian accent. If they're wondering what my accent is, it's Australian. I like to get that clear upfront, because if I don't, people are wondering what my accent is, and they're not listening to anything I'm saying. Well, thank you for clearing that up. All right, so if you're going to move up the corporate ladder, is line management inevitable in order to do that? I don't believe so. I really don't. In fact, I think that there's a lot of people that think that it is. I think it's one of the misconceptions, actually, of management that management is a natural next step for everybody. And frankly, management isn't for everyone. And I encourage people to be really curious about the role itself before jumping into a management role. I find that, I'll take engineering as an example because I lived in the Silicon Valley for a period of time, I've worked with a lot of engineers, there's some great engineers out there, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're great engineering managers. So, I really encourage people to get curious, which is, obviously, why I wrote the book. The book is the what, it's not the how, because that would be 20 books. But what is this role? Because I would hate people to find themselves in the role, in the inevitable trustful exercise that promotions happen for people on so many occasions, and they find themselves there, and they're immersed in this role that they're not happy with or that they didn't realise it was what it was, or they're realising that they need a whole new set of skills to be successful in the role, when arguably, up until that time, they have been really successful because they are really great at what they do. So, it can kind of be a little bit of a shock to the system when people find themselves maybe a little bit overwhelmed or over their heads. And then, of course, because the role is a manager, that role impacts people, i.e. their direct reports, in such significant ways that I'd really encourage them to get a little bit more curious on the actual skills involved in being a manager before falling into it or diving into it, whichever way you want to look at it. Before we get into what being a manager actually means, you said that becoming a manager isn't a prerequisite to climbing the corporate ladder. I'm curious as to what the alternatives are and how high realistically you can go without having some kind of a management aspect to your job. I have it in mind that it's going to be really hard to go up to being, say, I don't know, C-Suite, CEO, unless you're a manager. That's very true. And maybe there's elements of the role that can be developed over time throughout your career, where you get to a point in your career where you are more comfortable being a manager of people. But that initial falling into the role is something that I think people need to think about twice. I often find that people at more executive levels in organisations have forgotten some of the fundamentals of being a great manager, I've got to be honest. And I think they're often the ones that are less inclined to go to a training programme, unless it's a really great organisation where at all levels across the company there's a requirement to have some kind of management or leadership training, or even, it doesn't need to be training, like discussion group or 360 assessment kind of experience, that people can have just to double check that the impact that they're having on others is exactly what they intend it to be. Maybe to some degree, particularly when you get higher up in organisations, it is inevitable, but it's not something that people should be looking to dive into too soon without having other experiences on the corporate ladder, so to speak. And at a high level, where we're talking about management here, are we predominantly talking about people management, or are there other aspects to it? So, I don't know, budgetary, this springs to mind as one possible example. Yeah, I think people think of managers as just managing people, and managers actually manage a lot more than people. There's, to your point, the financial side of things. Usually, at a management level, there is some kind of budgetary management in some way, shape or form. But you're also managing tools. You're managing information. You're managing whatever other resources might be available to you and your team. So, there's a lot to, in inverted commas, kind of 'manage'. Can you talk a little bit more about the tools there? Because that was something that I hadn't really thought of. But do you mean the things like the IT, the tech, that kind of thing? Yeah, it's whatever tools your team needs in order to be successful. Is it a new software program? Is it a tool in the terms of another resource, such as another area of the business? Is it a website? There could be a number of different tools that managers need to just be ahead of the game to think about, well, what does my team need in order to be successful, and then do whatever they can to influence the implementation of that tool. And this is where it gets a little bit tricky in higher corporate organisations, because you might think that there's a perfect tool, such as, I don't know, an example might be an onboarding tool. There's lots of great new onboarding tools out there. But companies have an onboarding process which is really important to onboard new hires in the best possible way, and a manager might think, 'Oh, I want that onboarding tool for my team', and then they might go to the appropriate resources to get that in place, and those appropriate resources say, 'Yeah, we're not doing that.' It's like in Australia, they say, 'Yeah, nah, we're not doing that.' So, then as a manager, you need to find a way around getting the tools that you need in order for your team to be as productive and successful as they possibly can be. It can be a tricky game, you know, to play. And when you go for the example of tools there, you mentioned other bits of the business. And I suppose this comes to potentially managing people, but managing people in the sense that they're not in your team, but they're other people in the business who you would like to help your team. So, it could be either a complementary business line, or it could be something like a service function within the business, like HR or IT or accounts or payroll or whatever the team needs, which will better enable them to do their job, which is in another bit of the business. Exactly. A great example of that, I worked a little bit in manufacturing, so how much are the sales guys talking with the customer support or customer service part of the business? How is that linking into the manufacturing element of the company? Is everyone talking to everyone, or is everyone operating within their own personal silos and just getting done what they think needs to happen? So, managers need to be ready to reach out to other areas of the business that their teams rely on to be successful. And also, the opposite is true as well. They need to be available and open to ongoing communication and feedback, regulation sometimes in some respects, to make sure that they are available and supporting other areas of the business as well. Another misconception of being a manager is that you can manage people from your own isolated area or in isolation, and that is just absolutely not the truth. You need to be available to your team, you need to be available to your peers, you obviously need to be available to your management, as well as other areas of the business that you impact or are impacted by your team. You mentioned their misconceptions. I'm interested to know what other misconceptions people have about what it means to be a manager. Yeah, I think some people think that managers do less work. They can kind of delegate out everything that they want to get done, and they just kind of sit back and wait for their teams to do that. That is absolutely not the truth. There is a lot that goes into delegation. Being able to delegate appropriately or effectively is one of the top skills of being a great manager. And you need to know the strengths of your team, the people that are reporting to you. You need to think about what it is you're delegating, you need to think about timelines, you need to think about the best person to do the job. And you also need to think of what person on my team might want to do this work as well. And then, while they're doing it, you need to work out how much support they're going to need from you. A little support, no support at all, or less support. And then, if they do need the support from you, you need to be available to give them that support as well. So, the dynamics of delegation and delegating effectively really mean that you need to be more available rather than less available. But again, it's a fine balance. You don't want to delegate something to someone that doesn't necessarily need as much support from you, and then follow them up and then, in effect, micromanage them, because that's just going to create the worst possible relationship between you and that person as well. So, delegating is one, but there's quite a few. I've actually got another one, Jeremy. It's a funny story. I've run many hours of training of management and leadership development, and I was actually in a training programme delivering content on how to be a great manager. And one of my participants stood up and said, 'Well, I think management is an innate skill. I don't think management can be learned.' And I thought, well, that's interesting, given where we are and what we're talking about right now. But they had a very strong opinion. And of course, I want to listen to that opinion, but at the same time, I truly believe that being a manager is not necessarily an innate any skill. Certainly, there are some people that might feel more comfortable or have the kind of personality that other people are drawn to. I call it a 'je ne sais quoi', if you like, pardon my French to any of the French listeners out there, about being a manager. But I truly believe that being a great manager is easily learned. It just takes time, energy, practice, openness to feedback, and practice, practice, practice, as the old saying goes. What about this distinction between leadership and management? I've had a number of people on this podcast who have said that anyone can be a leader. You don't have to be hierarchically in a higher up position in order to be a leader. Equally, I've had people describe a manager as a leader. And the thought that's gone into my head is, well, yes, they're a manager, but I'm not sure I'd necessarily describe them as a leader. So, perhaps you can talk a bit about that distinction. Yeah, it's great. It's another misconception that if you're a manager, that means you're a great leader. No, it doesn't. In my opinion, anyway, it doesn't. It doesn't necessarily mean that. In order to be a manager, you need to be a manager and a leader. You need to do both. You need to balance them out. And I do think at certain levels throughout organisations, new managers tend to use their management skills more, but they must have leadership skills. As you move up through the hierarchy of any organisation, you tend to use more leadership skills, but you also still do use management skills as well. So, yes, there can be a change as you grow and develop, but you need to have the fundamentals down pat. So, I see management as being the fundamentals, on the ground management tasks, such as hiring, such as terminating or firing, if that needs to occur, looking after projects, managing projects, directly managing people. I think managers need to see themselves as the organisations in the eyes of their direct reports, because they often are the one and only link to the rest of the company that the individual, the direct report might have. Management is about budgeting, as you mentioned before, problem solving, planning. You have some level of authority. As opposed to leading, which is more the art of management. So, management is kind of the science, and leadership is the art. Leadership is about the motivation. Yeah, management for me is a science. There are elements to management that you can teach. And the challenging part, by the way, with some organisations is the science of management can be different by company. For example, companies might hire differently or have different hiring processes. But leadership is the art, it's the vision setting, the direction setting, it's the alignment of people. I actually determine the leadership as being unifying others towards a common goal. That's how I define leadership. But it's all the motivating, the engaging, the inspiring, driving change. Trust is a huge element there as well. So, yeah, management is the science, and leadership is the art. Management is more about authority, because you do have some level of authority. But in leadership, you learn that it's not all about the authority, it's more about your ability to influence people to get things done that you want to get done. I also think that management is often operating within paradigms, whereas leadership is between paradigms of experiences. So, for me, they're very different, but managers need to do both. And they need to know when to pick up on their management skills, and they need to know when to dive into the leadership element of their roles. Can you just elaborate there on what you meant by within paradigms, in between paradigms? Just for someone who's perhaps struggling a little bit to interpret that. Yes. So, we all engage in our day-to-day with our own level of paradigms, how we see the world, how we engage with other people. And that is determined a little bit by our experiences that we have with whomever we come into contact with. Operating between paradigms is really looking outside of yourself and thinking how might another person see the situation or circumstance. What might their point of view be? How might they approach this particular situational circumstance? So, leadership is about knowing yourself, but also looking more beyond yourself and seeing things from other people's perspectives, and then finding some meet-in-the-middle area where you then start to see each other's perspectives and experiences as one, rather than differently. So, if somebody is presented with the possibility of management as their next career step, what are some of the things that they need to think about in order to make the decision about whether this is actually the right option for them? I think the one fundamental that's coming up for me, Jeremy, is do I want to interact and engage with other people? Am I willing to look at myself in a way that has me think what impact am I having on this person or this situation? A very self-reflective perspective. Because what are we in life if not the impact we have on other people? And managers have an extremely relevant role that has a significant, or can have a significant impact on other people. So, are folks ready for that? I think they need to ask themselves that question. What impact do I want to have in my role as a manager? And then the second question they need to ask themselves is why do they want to be a manager in the first place. What is it about the role that interests them or excites them, that's going to get them up out of bed every morning really wanting to be one? And what reasons have you seen beyond, if I want to get promoted, then that's what I'm going to have to do? Yeah, I think it's innate, it's an inner drive to make a difference and make a difference with other people. For me, being promoted to manager, it's not just a promotion, it's a personal transformation. Especially these days. I often joke about the actual title of a manager, because it's kind of funny. I mean, the title has been around for a long time, I think since the Industrial Revolution, in which case it probably was a really appropriate title, but the title now is just so outdated. And I was joking about this with a colleague of mine years ago. He was a VP of a talent and leadership kind of function within a fairly large international organisation. And he played along, you know, he said, 'Well, Joanne, if you don't think manager is the right title, it certainly didn't reflect what we were teaching the managers within this organisation.' He said, 'What would you call it? What would you rename the title?' And I said, communicator. And then I said, no, empowerer. Just imagine a company full of empowerers and senior empowerers. Right? Just imagine the cognitive difference that that would make in terms of managers actually realising what their responsibilities were. Because it's not to manage anymore. It's to empower, to engage, to communicate, to enable people to thrive. And I think it takes a certain person to want to do that. And that's the question that people need to ask themselves if they want to get into management roles. It's, am I prepared to put myself second to my direct reports? Am I ready to become the topic of dinnertime conversation? Because let's face it, who doesn't go home and talk about their managers? Their other halves know their spouse's manager by name, no doubt. So, it's that kind of readiness, and also a willingness to learn continually. Being a manager is a personal journey. It's a lifelong learning journey. And so, if they're ready for all of those things, go for it. I love that point about, are you prepared to be the topic of dinnertime conversation? Because of course, everyone, well, most people will come home and complain about their boss. It's pretty standard. And so, I guess not only does someone need to acknowledge that that's going to happen, but I think what I'm hearing from you is that they also need to really aspire to be the person who doesn't get complained about. I mean, it's going to be inevitable, but really the mindset is, how do I support my direct reports, rather than be the person that they're constantly whinging about. Exactly. And it can be a fine balance. I mean, the realities of a management role can sometimes get in the way of that. There are absolute circumstances where managers do have to lay off their staff. I mean, it's happening more and more, particularly here in the US, and it's difficult that you need to cut your budget for the year by 15%. How are you going to do that? And that may not necessarily mean laying off people, but what projects are you going to move forward with? What projects are you going to stop? How are the people that are working on those projects going to react? There's an additional layer of complexity with being a great manager that I feel that a lot of people don't think about before jumping in. So, we've talked quite a lot there about mindset. What about skills? If you have historically been an individual contributor, and you're contemplating a move to management, what are the absolute number one skills that either you've got to acquire if you don't have them already, or you need to work on and brush up? I think the number one skill is communication, for me. I break down skills, there are so many skills out there, but I've really tried to break it down into four common areas, and they are strategic perspective, so taking on a perspective over and above anything that you personally might be working on at that particular given point in time, taking on a strategic perspective for your team, for your function, for your company. What is your company's vision? Why is that vision in place? Communication is one, and that's verbal and non-verbal. Most of the great communicators in my time have being very aware of not only what they're saying but how they're saying it, right down to their body language. Another important skill to engage in is, obviously, team performance. And that includes everything from performance management to change management, to one-on-one conversations, to coaching, collaboration, those sorts of things. And then, the final skill that I have identified is around judgement. And that includes decision-making and prioritisation and problem solving. So, there's a lot of skills in there. But if anyone is thinking, 'Wow, that's a lot!', yes, it is. Where do I start? I think the number one, well, two for me, communication and emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is coming about now as one of the most important skills for managers and leaders to learn and engage in. And I think innovation leadership as well. And maybe this is something that if you're not a manager right now, but you're thinking that it might be something great to do, and you're not really sure how to become a manager at this particular point in time, doubling down on those two in whatever capacity you can, but also, is there something that you can identify from an innovation perspective that's going on within your team right now, that you might be able to lead the rest of the team through. That might be a new process, or that might be stopping something that's not working and thinking about another way of going about doing it. There could be a number of things in there. But I think those three for me would be the top three, Jeremy. I feel like there's got to be in there humility, self-reflection and self-knowledge. I'm certain that there are people who go into these sorts of positions who believe already that they are great communicators when, in fact, most of their team are going,'Nah, you're not really.' Exactly. I would put that in the bucket of emotional intelligence. Yes, absolutely. Self-reflection, the ability to build trust, being humble enough as a human being to go, 'Oh man, maybe there's a different way, maybe there's a better way, or maybe I messed up that time, I'm going to learn from that experience, I'm going to change things moving forward.' That's why I find emotional intelligence 360s to be incredibly important for leaders. A 360 assessment is like an assessment that an individual might engage in, where they complete an assessment on a certain number of skills, their peers do the same thing about them, their direct reports do about them, if you've got direct reports, and obviously, your manager or higher leadership can complete the same assessment. And then, from that assessment report, you can get a clearer idea on how people do perceive you, what's working well for you in terms of how you're communicating and engaging with others, and maybe what's not. But in order to take on that feedback, you're right, Jeremy, it can be a really challenging experience for folks. And this is where Carol Dweck's famous work on having a growth mindset comes into play. And that's having a growth mindset in terms of building and developing your own capabilities, but when you become a manager, it's even more important because you need to engage with your direct reports with a growth mindset as well. Now, ideally, someone who is promoted to a management role would receive all manner of training and support about what that means, especially if historically they have had an Individual contributor role. But we've both heard, I'm sure everyone has heard of stories of people just being promoted to manager and not giving any support or training, just they're kind of magically expected to know what to do and to get on with it. So, for someone in that position, maybe there just isn't available, there isn't a sort of curriculum within the company of training and support, and so they're kind of left to do it on their own, what are some of the ways that someone can effectively design their own curriculum and upskill themselves? I think that's a great point. I heard a horrifying statistic recently that said that 75% of managers are not trained in their roles. And then, the other part of that was, most managers, so according to Gallup, most people become managers when they're 30-ish, but they don't receive any training until they're in their early 40s. Which means there's a decade-long period of time where they're not being trained. So, yes, many organisations do offer a robust training programme for managers, and I think that's wonderful. If they do not, then I do believe that there's an enormous amount of online resources available to folks that are often free. In fact, I'm going to create a link, this topic has come up for me more recently as well. So, on my website, which I guess will be linked below at some point, Jeremy, I'm going to create a list of online resources that are free, that I've come across. Great organisations, such as Harvard Business Review and others, that are more than happy to create great online content that folks can access. I found, I'm in no way, shape or form linked with LinkedIn, but if you do pay the additional fee for a membership, they've got some excellent training as well. I think in the absence of that, to just become a little bit more observant of your managers and managers around you, their behaviour, what they're doing, what they're saying, how they're saying it, how they're engaging with you. Look back on your experience of being managed by a great manager, and start to think about what is it that I noticed was great about their management that was important to me. Because everyone might be a little bit different. And then, emulate that to some degree, as much as you possibly can. I would find a great coach, someone that you love working with, that you can role play different situations or scenarios with. Any way that you can tap into developing a management level of capability, and looking at your interactions on a day-to-day basis through that lens will be helpful. If you're on a team, volunteer to lead the team meeting. You might say to your manager, if you feel comfortable, 'Hey, I'm really wanting to maybe be a manager in the future, and I would love your insights, your support, your guidance.' By the way, a tip of the trade here, Jeremy, don't go to your manager and say, 'I want your job.' That won't work for anybody. But I would love a role like yours, or I would like to explore being a manager in the future. I would like to think that your current management would be delighted to be able to share some of their experiences and to enable you to grow and develop in that way. Well, if that manager has the mindset of bringing on their people, then you would hope that they would be receptive to that kind of thing. Well, right. I think most managers want at some point in their career to be able to take a vacation, right? They don't want to be a bottleneck, they want to grow people around them that can lift up the team so that they don't necessarily have to be there. It's a win-win for everyone. But it does take practice. And to your point earlier about being an executive within a company, practice makes perfect with any of these types of skills. And if you think about it, amateurs practice to get things right, but professionals, they still practice, and generally, it's to keep from getting things wrong. So, we need to keep those neural pathways running nice and clearly in terms of building, developing and keeping the skills that we have on being great managers and great leaders. When it comes to dividing time, I've heard some people say that you should actually be devoting 30%, 40%, 50% of the time that you spend on line management, and then the other percent doing whatever the other functions are of the job. Whereas, in practice, it feels like a lot of people will do this just off the side of their desk and do it with an absolute minimum that they can get away with. And I'm thinking, particularly in my old profession as a lawyer, where chargeable hours were king, and so people who were in line management positions were also partners. They were expected to bring in business, they were expected to do work. And all too often, line management took at best a third or perhaps fourth place behind various other things. If there is such a thing, what's the counsel of perfection in terms of, if you are going to be a line manager, then you can expect to and really should be spending X percent of your time on that particular function? That is such a great question. How long is a piece of string for you, Jeremy? I hate to say it, but the answer is, it depends. The main point here is to make sure that you are doing as a manager or are prepared to do as a manager what you need to do. So, if your team needs you, and by the way, you never know what your team is going to throw at you, believe me, you can never anticipate what might be going on for your team personally or professionally, but when and as those experiences or those circumstances come up, as a manager, you have to be there. You can't go, 'You know what, I'm too busy, I've got my own things to do right now, so I'll get back to you on that.' That's not what great managers do. Great managers are there when and how and for what their teams need them. And they do also, as you pointed out, no doubt, have their own projects or initiatives going on that they need to work on. So, it's a challenging one. From my perspective, I believe that the people that report to any manager are the priority. Because as a manager, you're just not going to be successful no matter what you do, unless your team is looked after and feeling great. There are things that I have done with my team to free up my own time. And I can give you an example. I suggest that people have a one-on-one regularly with each of their direct reports. Now, I also realise that if you've got 26 people reporting to you, as I have heard some managers do, that is near to impossible and probably not necessary at the end of the day. So, you work out something there. But if you have a team of four, five, six people, then to have an hour one on one with each of those people is important. It's a time when you generate and create relationships with them. It's a time where you catch up on their work initiatives. It's a time when you give them an opportunity to ask you questions and clarify thoughts, et cetera. But if I have a direct report who I feel needs maybe a little bit more time with me, other than my regular one-on-one with them, I'll schedule a second one-on-one maybe later in the week. So, my regular one-on-ones, I used to have them on Mondays, if I could, it would be a great way to start the week, finish off what was done the previous week, and then get things going. I would offer not to all my team, because frankly, all my team didn't need it, but those that I felt needed it, I would offer them another hour later on in the week. And that hour would be in my calendar, would be in their calendar. If they wanted to cancel it, great. They get the time back, I get the time back. If I have to cancel it for whatever reason, I really try not to, then I can reschedule or whatever. But the point is, they know that I'm making time for them in my calendar, and it gives them a little bit of control, too, over the situation. When they know that Joanne's there if needed, and if they don't need me for whatever, they can just cancel that meeting, and all is well. We just have our regular one-on-one the following week. So, there are processes or systems that managers can put in place that adequately enable boundaries, while also ensuring that everything else is being addressed as it needs to be. I'm also a huge fan of blocking out time in my calendar as a manager to get things done that I need to get done. So, calendars are, obviously, a great tool for that as well. And I also just finally set expectations upfront with my team. So, I'll say to them,'Well, I'm working on a really busy project right now. If I'm less available, that's probably why. I want you to know that I'm here, and if you really need me, this is the best way to contact me.' But it's all about just being open with your communication and letting your team know what's going on with you and that you are there for them. And these are the best ways to get in contact with you, should they need to. The word that's coming to my mind is service. And this really comes back to what we were talking about, the mindset shift. You're approaching this from a position of service. Now, service within boundaries. Someone can't just walk into your office anytime for whatever reason, if that's the time that you've blocked out to do your own work. But that's really the overarching theme that I'm hearing, is you are there to serve your team, and not the other way around. Absolutely. I think that's the way to get the best out of your team, put it that way. And it's not service to the point of it negatively impacting you as a human. Right? It's just having the mindset or having the general frame of reference that I need to do whatever I can to enable my team, the people that work with me, to thrive. And that kind of way of thinking is going to enable more of what I call a followership way of thinking. It's kind of like, we can all think of people, I'm sure you can, Jeremy, people that you have worked with in the past that you would work for or with again in a second. And no doubt, there are people out there that you think of, you go, 'No, I would not, I would not work with that person if they paid me a million bucks. I just wouldn't do it to myself.' So, it's creating that followership and being an attractor of talent rather than a detractor talent, that, for my mind, will have future managers and leaders in a much better place than maybe where some of us are at right now. I mean, let's face it, people leave managers. They leave companies, too, to some degree. But people leave managers. And managers find themselves in roles, especially going right back to what we started to talk about at the very beginning, to find yourself in a management role and think, 'Wow, this is not at all what I thought it was going to be', is not a very pleasant place for anybody to be. So, let's avert that, let's not go there, Jeremy. There's one last thing which I'd love to get your thoughts on, and that's the person who has just taken on a management position, and now they have people who were their contemporaries, they were their colleagues, and they have now become their reports. What are some of the challenges that you've seen there, and how do people manage that kind of shifted dynamic? Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? This is why I suggest 360 assessments are really good, because you get a perspective of everybody, of you. And let's face it, if you're an individual contributor right now, who's potentially going to be one of your future direct reports, it's your current peers, right? So, let's face it. So, let's start working on the relationships that we have with our peers right now. What are we doing right now to bring out the best in our peers? How are we communicating with our peers? How are we listening to them? Are we listening? Are we really listening to what they're saying? Or are we just having a conversation where we're thinking about what we're going to say next in the context of what it is we're talking about? Start thinking about those relationships now. Ask for feedback. If you're in a meeting with a group of people, or you've just done a presentation, or you're about to do a presentation, and you want to rehearse something with it, rehearse it with your peers, if they're open to it. Why not? Start getting that feedback early and often. Because the information that you get from those interactions will be pure gold. And what will happen is that people will start to see you as a leader even before you see yourself as a leader. What's that analogy, Jeremy? You can help me out here. The bubbling up to the top? You know, the greatness just kind of naturally bubbles up to the top of people. I don't know, but that's the visual that comes to mind for me. You need to be open to being more of service, even if it is to your peers right now. And those little actions over time will change their perspective of you into potentially becoming a leader in the future. When you are promoted to a manager, you want your peers cheering you on, irrespective of whether they're going to report to you or not. Right? So, you don't want them thinking, 'Oh, gosh, I never want to work for him or her.' That's hard. You don't want them thinking that. So, being a little bit more aware of our current behaviours, the current impact that we're having on others, how we're bringing out the best in ourselves and others, and doing it over time, nothing's going to happen overnight, is a nice way to think about it. Yeah. And I think that highlights that the counter can also be true. If someone isn't spending time speaking to peers, finding out from peers how they're doing, bringing them along for the ride, then that could suggest that, unless that person does a little bit of extra work on themselves perhaps to start doing that, they might not necessarily be cut out for line management. Right. Some of the best managers I have ever worked for, and some of them really quite, I'm thinking of one in particular, quite senior in the organisation, we would get off a group call, and they would contact me personally and say, 'How'd that go? What went well? What could I have done differently?' And they're openly curious about it. And to be honest, the first time they did that, I was like, wow, why is this person calling me? No, you were fine, everything was great, good, you know. But then, when they did it a second time or a third time, I was kind of like, oh, wow, this person really wants my opinion. This person cares about what I'm thinking of them and how things went. Wow! He might be an opportunity for me to show my leadership. And to your point earlier about humility, they were quite senior, but they were still showing me that they were a great leader, because they were showing me that they were humble, that they were still willing to learn, and that they really cared about what I thought. And I would work for that person again in a heartbeat. Aside from your own book, which I will link to in the show notes, what other resources can you recommend to someone who wants to find out a bit more about what line management is really like? Oh, what line management is really like. There is a book that I came across very early in my career. It's called The Leadership Pipeline. Ram Charan is one of the authors. We can pop a link to it down below as well. I found that to be insightful because it really helped me understand the perspective of career growth when it comes to being a manager, and what's required of a first line manager compared to second line manager, and to your point earlier, higher up the chain how the role might differ. So, on a professional note, I really liked that book. It's been around for a long time, over 20 years as well. I'm also a Stephen Covey fan, so Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I think that's fundamental in terms of mindset. But the more recent one that's really impacted me personally, Jeremy, to be honest, is Mel Robbins, The Let Them Theory. So, when we're a manager, we're a person. So, this is where you've got your professional growth and your professional development to relate to, but you've also got your personal growth and your personal development to work on as well. And Mel Robbins' new book, The Let Them Theory, has had a huge personal impact on me. And I've got no association with her or anyone else. But I really enjoyed just the different perspectives that she's brought to the table and the practical support and guidelines that she provides. And where should people go if they want to find you and find your book? Oh, thank you. So, my book is called Game On! Is Management Your Best Career Play? And it's available now on Amazon. I am available via email, joanne@theleadershiprecipe.com. And of course, there is my website, The Leadership Recipe. So, I love to chat, obviously, about this topic. It's something that's near and dear to my heart. And I want to help people make the best possible career decisions as much as I possibly can. There's a diagnostic in the book that will help people do that. There's Zoe, who is an up-and-coming or an established engineer, who's looking to dive into the management realm herself. So, I've written about her journey in the book as well. And there's some reader's quests. So, Game On is the kind of analogy of, your career is a game in some respects. It's a serious one, but you can play it a little bit like a game. So, each chapter in the book is actually called a quest, and there's readers quests in there as well that they can do along the way. So, I hope people enjoy it. I'm sure they will, especially on the back of this conversation. Joanne, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a really interesting conversation, lots of very practical tips. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Jeremy. It's a delight. Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Joanne Merrick. I think it's fair to say that in most organisations line management is, frankly, a bit of an afterthought. You might be promoted, and with that promotion might come line management responsibility. But you don't actually get much training on what that means. And that's completely barmy when you think about it. Consider the impact that line managers have on the people they manage. A line manager can be the difference between whether someone enjoys or doesn't enjoy the work they do. It can be the difference between whether they're productive or not. Line managers within an organisation can collectively determine the success of that organisation. People like Joanne get that. She's got a deep understanding of what it takes to be a line manager. So, if line management is something that you're thinking about, then I'm hoping this conversation was useful. If you're already a line manager, then I'm hoping this conversation was useful. Has Joanne picked up on the things that line managers should be doing? Then, if you're already a line manager, how many of them are you doing? How seriously are you taking the responsibility you owe to those people you manage? And if line management training at your organisation is, shall we say, patchy at best, do consider what other resources are available to help you perform better. For the transcript, summary of everything we talked about and links to resources mentioned, visit the show notes page at changeworklife.com/208. That's changeworklife.com/208. And if you're contemplating whether line management is right for you, or you're already a line manager and you want to get better, then consider having a discussion with a coach. The best line managers are those who do it in a way which matches their pre-existing strengths. And one of the things you can do with a coach is draw out those strengths and figure out what does line management mean for you in that context. What are the things that you can bring which mean you're going to be able to do it successfully? If you'd like to explore what a conversation like that might look like, then visit changeworklife.com/coaching, that's changeworklife.com/coaching, and you can find out more. If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that I'm a fan of coaching. And I'm hoping the episode in two weeks' time is going to explain why I think it's so important. It's not just coaches who coach. In fact, it shouldn't just be coaches who coach. If line managers and leaders want to get the most out of their people, then coaching is one of the ways that they can achieve that. We'll be talking about that in two weeks' time, and it's going to be a good one. So, stick around, make sure that you have subscribed to the show if you haven't already, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.