Change Work Life

Ambition that lasts: pursuing success without losing yourself - with Kathy Oneto of Sustainable Ambition

• Jeremy Cline/Kathy Oneto • Episode 213

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#213: Kathy Oneto is a life-work strategist, author and founder of Sustainable Ambition.  She explains what makes an ambition sustainable, the different influences that drive ambitions, and the difficulty of predicting what will make us happy. 

What you’ll learn

  • [01:50] The difference between traditional ambition and sustainable ambition. 
  • [03:33] What unsustainable ambition looks like. 
  • [05:24] The difference between a challenging ambition and a misplaced ambition. 
  • [07:28] The different influences that drive ambitions. 
  • [11:17] How to avoid shiny object syndrome. 
  • [13:23] The physical signs your ambitions are misaligned with your self. 
  • [16:12] Affective forecasting and how to react when you start questioning your ambitions. 
  • [18:25] The four different motivators for following ambitions.
  • [21:28] The distinction between doing what you love and loving what you do. 
  • [23:41] How to gain clarity on what you want to do with your life. 
  • [26:00] How to identify what sparks your curiosity.  
  • [28:55] How to apply your ambitions to your life. 
  • [31:12] How to balance your responsibilities and ambitions. 
  • [34:04] How much time it takes to achieve an ambition. 
  • [36:27] Actionable steps to identify your ambitions. 

Resources mentioned in this episode
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For the show notes for this episode, including a full transcript and links to all the resources mentioned, visit:

https://changeworklife.com/ambition-that-lasts-pursuing-success-without-losing-yourself/


Re-assessing your career?  Know you need a change but don't really know where to start?  Check out these two exercises to start the journey of working out what career is right for you!

Are your ambitions sustainable? Are your goals there for the right reasons, or are they there because you think that's what society wants you to do? How do you make your ambitions your own, truly your own? That's what we're talking about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life. Hello and welcome to Change Work Life, the show that's all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm a career coach, you can find out more about that at changeworklife.com/coaching, and in each episode, my guests and I bring you tips, strategies and stories to help you enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life. Why are you so ambitious? That was the question the interviewer asked their guest on a podcast I listened to. And I found that really interesting. Because the connotation was that ambition may not be a good thing. We all need goals to aim towards and the things which drive us. But when does ambition become something that doesn't help us move forward? When does ambition lead to burnout and losing touch with what matters? My guest this week is Kathy Oneto, an executive and life-work coach, speaker and facilitator. Kathy hosts the Sustainable Ambition podcast, and she has a new book out,

Sustainable Ambition:

How to Prioritise What Matters to Thrive in Life and Work. Kathy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me, Jeremy. So you're all about sustainable ambition. How would you define traditional ambition as distinct from sustainable ambition? It's a good question. There's probably a couple of different ways that I would define it. I mean, one very simply is just using a dictionary definition, which is the desire to achieve something or do something, and that typically requires determination and hard work. And typically in today's society, the way that that ends up getting defined is in external terms, meaning societally defined terms, in terms of what those ambitions end up being, tend to be things that are deemed to be successful based on how society deems success. And so one of the key distinctions for me around sustainable ambition is really reclaiming that ambition and defining those ambitions on your own terms, defining success on your own terms, and making sure the ambitions you're pursuing are really things that you are internally motivated to pursue. I say that ambitions aren't sustainable unless they are yours. If you're constantly pursuing things that are externally driven, externally motivated, at some point you're going to question, why am I putting in all this hard work? Do I really care about what I am pursuing? So that's one aspect of traditional ambition, I think, is that oftentimes we end up pursuing things that society or others external from us want us to pursue, as opposed to really being clear about what we want for ourselves. So you said that ambitions might not be sustainable if they're not yours. So what does unsustainable look like? Can you talk a bit more about that? Sure. I mean, unsustainable could end up looking like, you end up putting a lot of time and effort into an ambition or a goal that you aren't truly motivated behind. And at the end of it, you get to the end result or outcome years out, and you're unsatisfied and unfulfilled. So part of what's unsustainable about that is at some point when you're not connected to your own internal ambition, you can end up getting to a point where it's really not fulfilling, because you're putting in all this time and effort into something that you don't really value or doesn't align to your true motivations. I mean, that's one way that that can start to express itself. Okay, so you get to the thing that you've done, and you feel a bit flat, you feel a bit unsatisfied. Yeah, I mean, that's one way that it's unsustainable. I mean, at some point, you will also start to not want to pursue that anymore. That's what makes it unsustainable as well. Right? That you get to a point where you maybe are following those 'shoulds', and at some point you say, I don't want to follow that 'should' anymore. I'm disillusioned by this, by the outcome I'm seeking, by what I was promised this was going to give me. And at some point, you start to think that you want to reclaim that and rebel against what you think you maybe should be doing and start to reclaim that ambition for your own. So when is that a symptom of having the wrong ambition that doesn't align, and when is it just a symptom of having a meaningful ambition, but one that's still quite hard, and there's bound to be those bumps in the road where you start to think, oh, why am I doing this? I think that's a really great question. I think that being aware of that, really tuning in to that feeling of, do I have energy for this, energy is really a clue of our motivation, and being able to determine whether or not you are still feeling energised by a motivation, and whether or not you're really committed and determined to pursue something, you do need to distinguish between that. So I say that, it's not as if, when we're in flow or when we're pursuing an ambition that we really want, that we're never going to run into difficult times. That actually happens a lot. And so you do need to ask yourself, how good do I want to be around an ambition? What is your aspiration around it? What is worth the hard work to you? Are you determined and committed to pursuing something? And then, what is your desired effort around an ambition, and what is the required effort around that? When you explore those different aspects of how much effort is required around a particular ambition, you can start to discern whether or not, hey, is this just an ambition where I'm starting to get disillusioned by it, it's not something perhaps I want to continue to explore, or am I just running into a rough patch or a hard patch where I'm still committed and want to pursue it and put in that desired effort? Can you maybe share a couple of examples of people that you've worked with? So maybe someone had a stated ambition to do XYZ, and the thought experiments or exercises that they might do to check whether that was something that really was their ambition, something that truly was motivating to them, rather than something that was societally expected. So, I don't know, a promotion or something like that? Well, I mean, one of the things that I explore in the book is this way of just even checking in with an ambition and kind of testing. Like, do you think an ambition is internally driven, or is it externally driven? I mean, it's a simple question, but I think there is one way to just pause and reflect on that. Is this something that I think I'm pursuing because somebody else wanted me to pursue this, or is this something that I'm pursuing because I want to pursue it? And then, the other test which I've talked about is to look and think about, well, what is my energy level around this ambition? Do I have low energy around it, or do I have high energy around it? And am I being drawn toward continuing to pursue this ambition? So you asked for an example. So an example of this could be, I was working with a client, and she was considering what was next for her and her career. And up to that point, she had been successful in a technology career space, and she had succeeded, and she had gotten to a point where, at a very successful level, but she had gotten laid off, and she was trying to determine, is that the type of role that I want to move into next? And even as she reflected back, she was trying to determine. Did I even want that? Was I pursuing something even when I did it, that I truly wanted? Or was it something that, again, was expected of me? And so in exploring this, we had her explore what was really calling to her now. Where was her energy being drawn? What were different paths that she was drawn to now? And then, it took her getting into action to explore different paths that she might consider going forward. So one was a path of like, do I jump back into what I want to pursue now? Do I pursue another option, like starting a company? Or do I pursue even a third option which was totally tangential, on a much more creative and artistic path? And really, that took her going to explore those different options and her checking in with herself to understand where was my energy being drawn against those different options, as well as what were my criteria for what was important to me now, what values were important to me around my work right now, and how it fits into my life right now, to help then determine what was really the best fit for her ambition at this stage. One of the things that you asked me at the beginning was, well, what's sustainable ambition versus regular ambition? And one of the things that I add into my own definition of ambition is time. So one of the things about ambition that I think is common is that people think that they can define themselves as an attribute, personal attribute, I am ambitious. And they think that it's only one state. As opposed to the fact that our ambition can dial up and dial down. And so I think paying attention to an element of what is important to me now at this time in my life, I add that as an element to my thinking around ambition, which is what really is important and matters to me now, what values are important and matter to me now. So when she was considering what was next for her career and figuring out what fit for her at that time, that was one of the lenses that also came in. One of the things that came up for me whilst you were speaking, and I loved that answer, by the way, was shiny object syndrome. So your client there, who's presented with the three options. And I sometimes wonder whether it could be a case of, I don't know, insert your cliche, change is as good as a rest, that kind of thing. So maybe really what they wanted to do was something which was kind of a continuation of the job that they had just been laid off from, but there was an element of, I don't know, boredom or, oh, this looks shiny, I could start my own business doing something else entirely. And I know myself having fallen into that trap more than once. So what are the guardrails that you can put around that to check your reasons for going in a different direction? So I guess there's a couple of things that I think about here. One is, because sometimes people ask me, how do I know if I'm at a moment where I should be changing directions? How do I know if this is just a temporary, even going back to what you were saying, it's gotten hard, and this is just a temporary pause, I need to recheck in. And it doesn't mean I should completely change things. I should just take a beat and get recommitted. So in terms of what you're saying, I guess, so one thing I would have people check in on is, and it goes back to that energy piece a little bit, which is depending on how you're feeling, and if you have an energy for something, or if you're starting to feel like your energy is waning around an ambition, it's to really check and see is that a temporary thing, or is it persistent. Has it been persisting for some time? And are you starting to feel like your energy is drawing you toward something else, and more, again, consistently over time, as opposed to a moment in time? So I say that because, again, energy is a clue. Those feelings are tied to our motivations and can give us a sense of what we're being drawn to. The second thing to think about is the physical signs, like our bodies, our somatic senses often know and have a sense that something is off. So that's kind of tied to energy, but it is something to pay attention to. Because what often happens with people is they have these internal feelings that are starting to be uncomfortable, and they tend to ignore them and push them away, as opposed to seeing that as a potential clue. And then, I think that the third place that I point people to think about in this is to like, well, is it ready or time for a change? Oftentimes changes occur when there is some term of outside or external trigger that makes you rethink and recast your values, your priorities, what's important to you. So that could be a shift in your personal life, or it could be a shift in your work life that has triggered something and changed something for you. So those are some stage things for people to be thinking about. I think the final thing that I'll mention, and I want to come back to the shiny object centre piece, which is, what is the stage of an ambition? So if you have been pursuing something, you brought this up earlier, it's not uncommon for us to get to a point where we're kind of bored with what we've been pursuing. That's a very common thing. And to then think about, well, what is the next thing I want to strive for? Or how do I want to stretch and grow next? And so being aware of where am I in a stage of my life, my work and ambition I'm pursuing, so that you can then navigate from there, I think, is important to pay attention to as well. So I go there, as opposed to like, hey, here's this new shiny object that I can go pursue, in a sense to kind of say, hey, check in with yourself to see, am I just jumping to the new thing because it is shiny, as opposed to there is really something going on for me where I'm desiring to pursue something new. I'll just say a final thing, Jeremy. I'll just admit. I am in this stage myself right now. I am getting to the end with a book coming out. I've been working on this topic for some time, and I know that there is a new ambition brewing. And yet, I have not had capacity or time to really investigate it in full. And so for me, this is a somatic sense, it's also been an intellectual sense, it's also been an energetic kind of thing that's happening. I'm also toward the end of a stage of a big ambition. And so all of those things are factoring into my own sense that something new is on the horizon. And I'm actually looking forward to when I have a little bit more space to go explore what that might be and what might be next. I'm curious to dig more into your experience with the book. So whether there have been times where you've thought, why on earth am I doing this? Who on earth told me that it was a good idea to write a book? Whether there's even been times where you've thought, I don't think this is the right thing for me to do. I'll be transparent and say yes to all of that. I mean, a book is a big ambition, and I think this happens with a lot of ambitions that we take on, in that we don't fully know what we're getting into when we start out. There is something called affective forecasting, Daniel Gilbert has done work around this, where we are not very good as humans at forecasting what's going to really make us happy in the future. There's some philosophical reading that I'm doing right now that points to the fact that, look, we grow into our values, we grow into our aspirations as we are pursuing them. It's why it's important to get into action. But I would say that, yes, any ambition offers a learning journey, and doing the book, I don't think anybody who's a first-time author knows everything that goes into writing a book. But you asked me earlier a question, Jeremy, I meant to come back to it, but one of the ways that I guide people to check in, to see, well, is this an ambition of mine, is this something that I still want, is that I point to four motivators in the book to determine is this what I call a 'right ambition', an ambition that is right for you, that is personally motivated, is to check in and connect those ambitions and see how do they connect to one of four motivators. How does it connect to the vision you have for your life and for your work? How does it connect to your purpose, how you want to give and contribute? How does it connect to what you value? And how does it connect to what you love to do? And so for me, in writing the book, that has been a continual practise as I've gone through. Am I still committed to this? Is this still worthy of my hard work? How good do I want to be around this? How much effort do I want to put into it? These are different questions that I have in the book that I continually come back to myself around this pursuit of this ambition. Could you just run through those four motivators again? So you mentioned vision, purpose, values and love to do, and maybe just talk a little bit about those. Yeah. So I point to motivators because the motivators are really what get us into action. And I also point to these motivators, because it's not uncommon for me to have heard from people in my workshops and what have you, that it's not as if this idea of defining success on our own terms is a new concept to many people. But the question is, where do you start to anchor those? And I'll share just one quick origin story as to, like, well, why do I focus on values? I focus on values, for example, because I was inspired by Fred Kofman and his work in his book Conscious Business, and he talked about it outside of that as well. But he has this term of 'success beyond success' and how that is rooted in our values, that we can find success beyond success when we root our goals and what we're trying to pursue in our own personal values. If we live according to our own values, in his belief, that is a way of achieving success beyond success. And that was something that so resonated with me, like, wow, that is a way that I can be in complete control of my own success. So values is one of those. What do you value across your life and work? And how do you align what you do and what you pursue according to your values and what those values look like for you? Because even, you and I can perhaps value creativity or learning, but what that looks like for each of us can be different. So that's values. Vision is, you need to kind of have a vision. Even though we have a hard time forecasting what's going to make us happy, we still have to have a sense of what do we long for, what do we wish for, for our life, for our work, what is the vision of what we want to craft for ourselves and our desires. And by having that vision, it helps pull us in a direction. We need to have a sense of where we are moving. So that's vision. Purpose, I'd like to talk about giving and contributing, because I think that purpose feels like a lofty word. And I think people think like, oh, I have to have a huge purpose, and it can feel a little daunting. But I think that about giving and contributing, because having a sense of that really is a very strong motivator for us. So how do you want to give and contribute to those around you and in what you do across your life and work? And then, love is really about that intrinsic motivator. What do you enjoy doing? Just for the pure process of doing it. Great. Thank you for running through this. That was really interesting, because I was wondering what the distinction was between vision and purpose. And it seems like vision is where you would like to end up, so perhaps where you envision yourself living, how you're living, who you're living with, that kind of thing. Whereas purpose is more about what's the impact, large or small, that you want to make on, using a lofty word, the world, which could just mean the world around you or the people that you want to impact. Yes, exactly. Doing what you love and loving what you do, I always think, is an interesting distinction. So I'm curious as to how you approach that. Well, I guess what I would say about that is that according to Ayelet Fishbach, who's one of the foremost motivation researchers, in her book she talks about how intrinsic motivation is really the number one driver of engagement in goals and in goal pursuit. And so what I think is that, the more we can tap into something that we love or connect something that we love to things that we do, I think that that is an important driver and something to search for. But the other thing, I talked about it before, which is, I think where people can get tripped up a little bit is to think that, in ambition or goal pursuit, we're never going to have to work hard or do things we don't enjoy in order to reach that objective that we have. And I think that that's not accurate either. If somebody is an athlete or a musician, you do drills, and you do things that aren't always all that much fun, but you do it because it is in service to the larger goal. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who never really think about what it is they want. And even if they are at one of these inflection points that you talked about, it's just a case of, oh, I've been laid off, I'll find another similar job, for example. And then, if you ask them what they want, there can be this hopeless, I don't know, or maybe I don't know anymore. So maybe they had an ambition, or they thought they had an ambition, and now they're thinking, you know what, I don't really want that anymore, but now I'm in this place where I don't know what I want. So someone who's kind of stuck there, who lacks clarity around their ambitions, maybe they've gone through this period of thinking they knew what they wanted, and now they don't, help that person out. This is very common. I should not laugh. I mean, I only laugh because it is so common, and it's painful. And a lot of people do end up finding themselves here. And I think the first place I point people typically is to really tap into their curiosity. So I don't love the term'follow your passion', because it sets such a high bar for the intensity around which we're supposed to be feeling something around what we pursue. I think that asking somebody, though, 'What are you curious about right now?', is an easier thing to answer. And oftentimes there is some spark. And what I encourage people to do, even if they can't answer that question in the moment, is to start to pay attention to that. And so what starts to capture your curiosity? Where do you start to go down rabbit holes or start to explore something more? And then, if people aren't able to still identify things, part of this that's really important is getting into action. We won't know unless we start to actually experience things. And I think this is the key part around this affective forecasting that I keep on bringing up, which is this idea of, it is hard to forecast, so what's important is to start to test things out, get into action and explore, talk with people who have done some of the things that you might start to consider doing, so that you can get some sense of, well, what is it about who they are, what they value, what they enjoy, and how much does that match, and is that congruent with yourself? So for those that don't know, part of that is really starting to, again, tap into that curiosity, getting into action. And also, I know a lot of people will say to journal, but journaling and starting to prompt this question around what do you want, and answering that question across time and number of days can start to unearth some things for people as well. Can you give people a starting point for the getting curious thing? Because I'm sure that there's even people who will get stuck there. So when you say, 'Engage your curiosity, what are the kind of things you're curious about?', there's probably going to be some blank looks even there. So what are some prompts? What are some things that people can ask themselves just to get off that zero space and start the juices running? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, what I would say, because I'm going to give some options, and then I'm partly pausing because I'm like, oh, I could start to see people be like, 'Well, I don't read stuff', but you do need to start to get yourself exposed to some stimuli. And that stimuli could be anything from, are you reading the newspaper or just reading something online? When you skim things on social media, does something catch your eye? Or do you go explore if there's some talks in your neighbourhood or where you live? Libraries host events. Libraries are actually great places, especially around career, to look for information. Are there places you can put yourself where you are starting to get exposed to different topics and interests? It could even be something like, find your local community college or university and look at their list of courses that they offer, and see if any of those courses actually spark something for you. Those are places I would start to look. I don't typically like to tell people, 'Go jump on a job search site, and actually look at job listings.' But I will say, because that's what people typically do, and then they just start applying without pausing to really say what do I truly want, and figuring out what's important to them. But I could say, you could go there, and the only exercise is just to look at some of those job descriptions and see what sparks for you. Is there a spark of interest and of curiosity around something that you're looking at? And if you're at the other end, and everything seems interesting, how do you reign that in so that you don't end up giving yourself 10 things to look at, which I can see starting to get overwhelming, and then just preventing you from doing anything? Yeah, I guess around that, I might just, again, check in with yourself and make yourself prioritise. And part of that is, again, checking with your energy. Which of these is most exciting to you? Which of these draws your energy and interest the most? And prioritise from that list. What are the top three that you want to start with and start exploring? So that's where I would point people. It's just simply that. So where does someone end up in terms of their ambition? Is the goal to have a one-line sentence that you can say, 'My ambition is...', or like, I don't know, a personal elevator pitch, or what's something that might feel like an endpoint, even if it's not the only endpoint, and it's something you revisit further down the line? What's something that hat someone can look at and go, okay, I've got that bit of clarity for me? Is it like a one sentence or something like that? Yeah, that's a good question. I guess one way that I think about sustainable ambition is that, at the end of working with my method that I suggest, and I think the method that I have in the book is quite flexible in how it gets used and how it can be applied, it can be applied at a life level, it can be applied at a project level, trying to make a decision, and so one of the ways that I talk about it is really sustainable ambition is a collection of meaningful, motivating goals that are right for you now, that are aligned with your sustained energy and effort. And so it really is like, what are you pursuing now in your life? Are these meaningful and motivating to you? Are they the goals that most matter to you now? And are you managing your effort around them in a way that keeps you sustained, as opposed to burning you out? So I've got someone in mind who's saying, 'Kathy, that all sounds marvellous, but it's not realistic. I've got obligations. I've got a spouse, mortgage, kids, et cetera. I've been through the exercises, and it's clear to me that, here is something which I think I would probably enjoy doing, but it's just not realistic for me at my current phase of life.' So how does that person balance what they perceive as this need for realism, at least as they see it, with what their ambitions might be? Yeah, I guess two places I would go. One is that I encourage people in that kind of situation to realign with how does what they're pursuing now connect back to their motivations and what's important to them now. So, for example, this situation that you're describing to some degree is one that I reference in my book, which is having interviewed somebody who had put off an ambition to start a business. When I had interviewed him, he was just starting to explore that. Because he said, 'I didn't want to have an unstable job during the time that I was raising my family, putting my kids through college. And so I put that ambition off on the horizon, until I felt like it was a better time for me to pursue it.' And so for him, he was connected to how taking on that responsibility of caring for his family connected both to his vision, for himself, for his life, but also his values and what was important to him. And honestly, also his contribution and how he wanted to make an impact in his life. And so to recognise that you are perhaps making a trade-off now, but that trade-off is in service to things that you actually want and are important to you in your life, and to recognise that, yes, sometimes we do have to make trade-offs because time is finite, and we can't do everything all at once. And so the other things that I point people to, though, is to either recognise that, yes, I may have to put something on the back burner now, and I may just have to accept that, and I have to make that choice. The other is to consider, well, is there a way for you to compromise around that? Is there a way for you to either nurture that ambition in some way so that you feel like you are taking some steps towards it? I think sometimes people forget that most ambitions take some time to achieve. And oftentimes we can't jump from the very beginning and start of that ambition all the way to the end. There are many small steps along the way. And so how can you actually nurture that ambition and take one small step toward it in some small way? Perhaps it is, and I'm making this up just because of that example that I shared, but let's say somebody does want to start a business at some point. Well, start to explore what that might look like to do that. What are different paths and ways that you might be able to start a business? Do you even have a sense of what that might look like for you, what type of business model, or how you might jump into it? So I think that there are ways to potentially approach things in that way, where you are, like I keep saying, nurturing that ambition in a way so that you don't feel like you're having to make some big sacrifice or completely ignore it. What I like about that answer is, there's an idea of a spectrum of action. And I think a lot of people think it in terms of a very binary choice. So I can't start a business now because I need to wait until my kids are through college or something like that. Which may be the case, or it may be an excuse. Whereas what you're saying is that, maybe that is the position that they're in, but that doesn't necessarily rule out taking some small steps, even if that step isn't necessarily quitting the job to start a business, but taking some small steps to figure out what the business might be. Maybe putting together a business plan, maybe starting to research what would be involved. And so then starting to get a feeling as to whether it really is something that you can't do now for whatever reason, or it is an excuse. And in fact, if you pursued it, then maybe it is something you could make work. I think this is important to just acknowledge or put an asterisk, just to emphasise again, which is that things take time often. And I've had this around me just recently, so it's really top of mind again to remind people that. I have a client who was really looking back at notes, he has finally made a decision about taking a sabbatical. And he's like, wow, we started talking about this four years ago, and it's only now that he's in a position to finally take that step. And it's because he's been planning all this time. It has taken this much time to work toward that. There's another person I know in my life who just said, wow, she had a dream of creating this house on an island that she loves from her childhood. And 25 years later, that dream is coming true. So, again, these things that we want for ourselves, it's important to start planting seeds sooner than we think. And so Peter Drucker said this oftentimes around especially a second career or your second life, which is, we do need to plant seeds sooner than we think. Oftentimes we get to those points, and we're kind of surprised and shocked. And again, we are asked, 'What do you want to do?' And we say, 'I don't know.' And so starting to plant these seeds early and explore early, I think, is important. So what's one thing that someone can do today if they're listening to this on their commute, and they're thinking, hey, you know what, I haven't really given this a lot of thought, where's a really good place that they could start? One simple action. I think what I might say is to just check in with themselves and say, where am I investing my time and energy and effort right now? And to question, why is this important to me? Why does this matter to me? And why does it matter to me now? And to just answer that simple question. Why is this important to me? Why does this matter to me? I think that, and the reason I'm pointing people to that is to really check in and try to see, what is my motivation behind this? Why am I pursuing this? How is it important in my life and for what I want for myself? And when you say 'this', is this what they're doing now, or is this something which they'd like to do? So when they're asking themselves all their questions, what are they interrogating? I would say, look at where you're investing your time and energy now. So I'm thinking about what are your current life and work ambitions. What are you pursuing for yourself right now? If you were to step back and say, what are my goals for this year? Which maybe not all of us ask, but what are my goals for this year? If I were to step out to the end of this year and ask myself and ask my future self, what would I be really excited about having pursued and experienced in this year? What would those things be? And now I'm giving you a second thing, Jeremy, actually, because really I'm kind of saying like, what are you pursuing right now? And explore that. Where are you putting your time and energy? Where are you investing that? And then say, why do those things matter to me? But you can also kind of then say, okay, well what might I want? And that's where the second exercise, I was just saying, go out to the end of the year and ask yourself, because if you haven't asked yourself, what would you be really excited about having experienced, accomplished by the end of this year? And then, say, again, around those things, why are those things important to me? Why would they matter to me? If I may, I'd love to bring this back round to you again. You mentioned how you've finished or are on the point of completing this book, and there's some other ambitions bubbling under. What's exciting you for the future? Where do you think you're going to go next? Oh, I wish I could answer that. I have been planting seeds, but honestly, I'm not quite sure. I mean, first off, what I'm doing now in terms of talking about sustainable ambition is one of the things I enjoy the most. And really just to get these ideas out there that we can redefine and reclaim success and ambition on our own terms, and make the pursuit of what we want in our lives sustainable. That's important to me and something I enjoy. So I'm excited to be able to finally have the book out and continue these types of conversations. But like I said, I also have something brewing on the horizon. And honestly, there's a lot of different curiosities that I have. And I believe this around ambitions, too, that we sometimes need that space to explore and to let things be a little messy to determine, well, how are these curiosities going to then take shape into what might be next. And so I'm looking forward to getting past a certain point of this book launch to have a little bit more space to step back and allow that creative process to take shape and see what comes forth. So for someone else who wants to explore this further, obviously, there's your own book, but you mentioned one or two resources as we spoke, is there one that you'd like particularly to point someone to if they're interested in carrying on with this exploration? The resources I'm going to share, if I could, I'm going to share three different things. One is just, I love the book Working Identity by Herminia Ibarra, who is a professor at London Business School now. That, to me, is a great book in terms of people who might be thinking with a lens of what might be next for my career. And I think it can really help people who are thinking about that question, 'I don't know what I want'. So I would point people to that. There's also a great podcast, Squiggly Career, that I would point people to as well. And then, I will also just, if I could share a quote around this as well from Mark Twain that I really love, which is, 'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.' And I like that just to say we do need people around us who can champion, inflame and give us the support around the ambitions we hold for ourselves. And so I would encourage you to also think about who do you surround yourself with in terms of exploring what you might want for yourself and for your life. There's that idea, isn't there, of being the average of the five people you spend most time with. So absolutely, seeking out people who can support you and encourage you, that's really, really important. If people want to find you, and they want to find your book, where would you like to send them? They can find me at sustainableambition.com, and they can also find my podcast on most podcast players. Links, as always, in the show notes. Kathy, thank you so much for a very, very interesting conversation. Thanks so much, Jeremy. Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Kathy Oneto. I love it when a guest breaks things down into manageable chunks. And I thought Kathy's framework for helping you define your own ambitions in this regard was particularly helpful. She talked

about looking at four things:

your vision, your purpose, your values, and what you love to do. So do go back and listen to that bit of the episode and figure out how you can apply that to yourself. Maybe write those things down on a bit of paper and see where it leads you. I also hadn't come across this idea of affective forecasting. So this idea that we're not actually very good at predicting what will make us happy. I guess the message there is that it allows you to take a little bit of the pressure off. You can get so het up in making the right decision, making the right choice. It's like you've only got one shot at happiness. When if Kathy was saying that, actually, you can't really predict what is going to make you happy, all you can really do is try, experiment, see whether something fits, and if it doesn't, okay, there's another data point, move on to the next thing. Show notes for this episode are at changeworklife.com/213, that's changeworklife.com/213, and if you'd like to work with someone to help you define what your ambitions are, if you're one of those people who just doesn't really know what they want, then check out changeworklife.com/coaching, that's changeworklife.com/coaching, where you can find a bit about the coaching that I offer. And if that sounds interesting, you can book a free 30-minute introductory call with me. Summer's coming to an end, we're nearly into autumn, but we've got some great episodes still to come. So make sure you subscribe to the show if you haven't already. And I can't wait to see you next time. Cheers. Bye.