DIY outplacement: practical steps when you’ve been made redundant - with Jeanette Ramsden of the Curve Group

#216: Jeanette Ramsden is the CEO and owner of The Curve Group where she provides HR and recruitment services to transform working lives.  She explains the first steps to take if you’re made redundant, what types of jobs you should look for, and how to explain your redundancy to future employers. 

What you’ll learn

• [02:16] The declining use of outplacements. 
• [03:06] How outplacement packages help people who have been made redundant. 
• [04:13] The personal impact of getting made redundant. 
• [05:54] What an exit statement is. 
• [08:10] How to explain why you got made redundant to prospective employers. 
• [09:11] What to do if your employer tells you you’re being made redundant.
• [11:53] The risks of taking the wrong job when under financial pressure. 
• [13:50] How to work out what job is right for you. 
• [17:55] The mindset you need to sell yourself. 
• [19:25] What to include in a 5 year career plan. 
• [21:50] The danger of rushing into job applications. 
• [24:15] How to avoid shiny object syndrome when looking for a new job. 
• [27:09] The different ways coaching can help and how to access support. 
• [30:00] How to use AI to help you identify your strengths. 
• [31:23] Top tips for effective networking. 
• [35:31] How to deal with rejection and setbacks. 
• [39:46] What to do with your time when you’re out of work. 
• [43:07] How effectively to use your existing network.

Resources mentioned in this episode
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• Quote: “Give me six hours to chop down a tree, and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe.”
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For the show notes for this episode, including a full transcript and links to all the resources mentioned, visit:

https://changeworklife.com/diy-outplacement-practical-steps-when-youve-been-made-redundant/

Re-assessing your career?  Know you need a change but don't really know where to start?  Check out these two exercises to start the journey of working out what career is right for you!

Transcript

0:00

Let's face it, being made redundant is scary. You're left in this period of uncertainty where you just don't know what to do next. If you're lucky enough to leave with an outplacement package, then you may get a bit of structure. But if you don't have that luxury, how can you create that structure yourself? What are the steps that are going to set you up for success for the next stage of your career journey? That's what we talk about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life. Hello and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast, where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm a career coach, you can find out more about that at changeworklife.com/coaching, and in each episode, my guests and I bring you tips, strategies and stories to help you enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life. If you've ever had the misfortune of being made redundant, you might, as part of the package, have been offered outplacement, a support service which helps you transition to a new job, often including career coaching, resume building and job search assistance. It's something I've experienced myself, and I have to say it was incredibly valuable. But what if you're not offered outplacement? What if you're left on your own to figure it all out by yourself? How can you effectively design your own outplacement to help you adjust and find that next job or career? This week's guest is Jeanette Ramsden, founder and CEO of The Curve Group, a leading recruitment and HR services business, whose purpose is to transform working lives. Jeanette, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Jeremy. Lovely to be here with you. So, let's dive straight in. So, we're talking here to someone who is being made redundant, but they're not being offered any kind of outplacement package. And so, what we're really doing is helping them to design their own. So, why don't we start with, perhaps you could summarise what are the sorts of things which typically are available in an outplacement programme? Thanks, Jeremy. Yes, unfortunately, businesses are offering outplacement a lot less these days, which is a real shame for people, because, let's face it, being made redundant comes as a shock to most people, and yet ever increasingly is on the agenda of businesses, given the market and the economy at the moment. So, an outplacement package is extremely useful, and if you are offered it, then please do take it, because it can be extremely helpful. But if you're not lucky enough to be in that position, then an outplacement package offers many different areas to get you back into the world of work, and hopefully, not just back into the world of work in any old job, into a job that you're going to really love, enjoy and is going to see you through the rest of your career. I guess the first part of an outplacement comes as a real shock, and a good outplacement coach will help you through that shock. And I guess what I would say is the first part of it is accepting that this has happened to the job and not the person, and in order to get through that sort of shock, denial and acceptance is the first part of an outplacement package. We then deal with working on an exit statement, and I can go into more detail around that. Working out what a three- and five-year plan could look like for the individual, what they're actually wanting, where their strengths and weaknesses lie, their CV, how to make them look the most attractive to media, including LinkedIn, the very important mechanism for getting a new job. Reaching out to their network, potential companies that are going to be interested in them, asking for referrals and asking for help. And that gives a big summary of what an outplacement package would cover. Hopefully, not going on too long. And that point that you made at the beginning about it happening to the job, not the person, that's really important. Because I would imagine that a lot of people, it's going to feel quite personal, it's going to feel like they're being picked on. It's like, you know, why me? Why am I being singled out? Why am I being thrown on the rubble? Exactly that. And helping through people, it's completely natural to feel like that. But using your family, your friends, your co-workers, to help you accept that, actually, this is just part of modern day life, and it really isn't the person, it is the job that is being made redundant. And the sooner you can get an acceptance on that, the easier then that is to move along into almost seeing this as an opportunity. Now, when somebody first gets made redundant, if I'm saying this is a real opportunity for you, I'm sure people would like to punch me at that stage. But I promise you, after being in HR for over 30 years, I do see people go on to almost be relieved that they were made redundant in the end, because they've ended up with a fantastic career and a fantastic lifestyle that they've really appreciated, rather than work for an organisation that no longer wanted them. And it can be the catalyst to make a change. I've interviewed several people who, I remember one early interview where he said that he was brought into the meeting along with a load of other people, and he was the only one who left with a smile on his face, because it meant that he could go and start the business that he intended to start. Wonderful. And exactly that. And it doesn't feel like it at the time, but it can be new beginnings. You mentioned an exit statement. Tell me more. So, an exit statement is, when I ask people about why they've left an organisation, particularly when somebody's been made redundant, they can spend a huge amount of time telling me what was wrong with the role, what was wrong with the organisation, why it all happened. The reality is, a good outplacement coach will get you speaking very swiftly about why they've exited an organisation, and move them very quickly into what they want next and how somebody can help them with a new opportunity. So, for example, rather than going on that the organisation had been going wrong for 10 years and that the roles have been obsolete because of AI, and then the manager that they worked for wasn't very friendly towards them, et cetera, et cetera, and all the things that can happen, somebody that basically says the market wasn't right, technology took over my role, therefore I was made redundant, what I'm now looking for is a role in an organisation of a medium size that will give me a great opportunity to spend the next three to five years building an organisation. And that really helps a person that's listening to the individual, not only how they can help and why they might be right for the job, but also, it stops them putting any negative thoughts that could come to mind about that individual. And how much detail is it really necessary to go into about the reasons for leaving? So, you said that technology took over my role or whatever. I mean, do you even need to go that far, or do employers just recognise that redundancies happen? It's a fact of life, a fact of business. Yeah. I mean, start off small, and then if they need more detail, you can build from there. But just be clear not to criticise the organisation and not to criticise their managers, because quite often, that can put people off who are doing the interview of the individual. So, try and avoid criticism, just try and keep it very data and fact-based. And a question I was asked myself, I mean, this was quite some time ago, and hopefully, things have moved on, but it was why you? And I found that question really hard to ask. So, I mean, A, is that a question that does get asked these days, and B, how do you answer that? Certainly not by any Curve individuals, it wouldn't be asked, because it's actually jolly rude. But I would answer it by saying I was one of a pool of people, there were the reasons that were given, you know, just keep it very, very factual. But no, I wouldn't say that is a question that, A, should be asked in the first place, but B, if it is asked, just keep it very factual and try, it's very, very easy for me to say, but try not get defensive about it. Redundancies do happen in modern day society, full stop. And when it comes to the actual leaving of the previous employer, are there some good ways to do it? 100% yes. So, there are actually books written on this, like the hundred days in a new organisation book can help with this. But the way to leave an organisation is, make sure that you give everybody you wish to get your new contact details, make sure that everybody that you want to have those, make sure you pass those on, and don't just rely on social media to be able to pick people up. If you're a manager, and you're wanting your team to go with you, make sure that you explain the reasons why you're leaving and that you may, at some point in the future, come back and get them. There's nothing like giving them a bit of flattery to make sure that they know how well they were valued, and therefore, very open to picking them up in the future. Also, working with the organisation about almost the press release to the organisation as to why an individual is actually leaving the organisation, the true reasons for that, to stop all the Chinese whispers about why somebody's left and why they haven't. And just generally ensure that you've left an organisation feeling good about yourself. It would be very easy to just say, 'Well, I'm not going in, I'm going off on the sick', people will put two and two together, and it does affect how your references are written subsequently to that. Normally, people can't give a bad reference unless there's good reasons for it. But the difference between giving a glowing reference because the individual's been very professional and left in that way, rather than just leaving everybody in the lurch is not good. It's not good for your own mental health, and it's not good for how the organisation and the individuals who work in the organisation feel about you. Quite an old-fashioned thing, but it is, I promise you, very relevant. Now, don't get me wrong, I do understand sometimes people's mental health does get affected, and they can't help it. But if you can, and you can avoid leaving in a flurry, then it is better. Yeah. And I can imagine there being a temptation to burn bridges. Oh, well, I'm never going to go back there. But you never know when you're going to come across people in the future, and so just your future you may well thank you for leaving with grace and calm and professionally. Very much so, Jeremy. Yeah, I always say it's like your own personal brand. It's what they don't say about you when you're not there. Sorry, what they say about you when you're not there. So, you've mentioned lots of things that we can talk about in more detail, the exit statement, the three- to five-year plan, CV, LinkedIn, figuring out what you actually want to do. How do you get the balance, though, between getting it, air quotes, 'right', and recognising the fact that there may be some urgency to the situation, particularly if, financially, you don't have a huge runway to spend a lot of time on this. An extremely good point well made, clearly, Jeremy, because most people have got financial pressures, myself included. It's not that I wouldn't understand the financial need to move on on this stuff. I think the danger is if you don't spend some time, and let's face it, most people will have at least a notice period and some form of redundancy pay, unless they've literally only just joined an organisation, to just spend a little bit of time trying to work out what it is that you want, because otherwise, you may end up accepting a job that actually you could be made redundant from in the future, because it's not something you actually want to do or something that you're terribly good at, if you just accept the first job that comes through the door. Now, everybody is different, right? Some people are very, very clear about what they want and very, very clear about what roles they would accept. I think the majority of people, though, who have been made redundant and struggling and needing outplacement would be in the position where they need to work out what is it that I actually want to do. And the reason, it's that whole adage, isn't it, if you want to chop down a tree, spend seven hours sharpening the axe to do it. Because otherwise, when you do get a job offer, and what can happen is, you can get three or four job offers, and actually, if you haven't invested that time in working out what it is that you want, you may choose the wrong opportunity at the end. And it doesn't actually take that long to work out what it is that you want in your three- to five-year plan. Where your strengths and weaknesses are, what you want the job to look like, how much money does it have to be, what's the location, what are the hours that you wish it to be, what type of organisation is it, small or large? And actually, once you start that journey and that thinking, you can really, really develop that quite quickly. I'm quite a visual person myself, and the whole whiteboard and working out what it is you want, and ever increasingly working that through, so that, as and when you do get the job offer, you make the right decision, and you're doing it very consciously, rather than unconsciously and just going for the one that gives the most pay. Now, if on your wants and needs, it's all about the money, then that's fine, but at least you're doing that incredibly consciously, rather than unconsciously. So, there's, I suppose, deliberately making the time to do this exercise, and then approaching it in a fairly structured way. So, write down the questions beforehand, which you want to think about and have answered. 100%, and it doesn't have to be too arduous, and I can come across a little bit too airy-fairy from an HR point of view. But actually, literally working out your three- to five-year plan, what you want, your strengths and weaknesses, and how you can play best to that, really then actually plays back to your exiting statement, because you then can really articulate very fast exactly what it is that you want. But not only that, your CV, your LinkedIn profile, your Facebook profile, and everything will reflect that, so that actually your CV comes across the best it possibly can be and comes across as very authentic as to who you are and what you're wanting to do. And when we get really into the technical details of a CV, you can make sure that you're bringing out the words. That means that recruiters, talent acquisition people in-house in companies can find your CV the best on line that they possibly can. So, it all helps towards getting you that job. So, please don't see it as, I just need another job, Jeanette. It really does help with the whole process, spending a little bit of time. And I also say, sorry to just go on a bit, but I also say to people, you've got to see this as a job, okay? You have to be selfish about allocating time each day, as you would a job, towards finding a new role. And be kind to yourself within that. You've had a bit of a shock, it's a big change in your life, but if you can allocate some time where you're going to dedicate to finding a new job, and then, try and find some fun in your life at times when you don't have to be looking for a job, it means that it won't take over you in its totality. And actually, you can really structure your day, know that you're contributing to your future by structuring your day and see it as a job. And then, finally, also think about running, finding a new job as you would a job. Allocate time each day that you are prepared to commit to finding a new role for yourself. It means that you will be a lot kinder to yourself, because you know that you've done your allocated time as you would, and it structures your day for you, rather than you worrying about it the whole time. This will allow you to enjoy some of the time that you have off, rather than constantly worrying about finding this new role. But it will also mean that you structure your day. Finally, people, I find, tend to struggle, not everybody, and the trouble is with outplacement, everybody's different, every human being is, indeed, human, but even if they've been in sales, they struggle to sell themselves. And I say to people, think about yourself as a product. If you were selling a product Jeanette Ramsden, this is who I am, and this is who I'm selling, you find it a little easier than actually trying to sell yourself. Because we are traditionally not terribly good at talking about ourselves, boasting about ourselves, and that's, indeed, what you have to do. And I'm sure you help a lot of people when you're coaching, Jeremy, with that. When it comes to selling, because, yeah, for a lot of people, selling feels quite sort of icky, used car salesman kind of thing, apologies to any used car salesmen out there who are listening to this, but the more I've learned about sales, the more I frame it in terms of providing a solution to a problem. And that applies equally to when you're applying for jobs. The company you're applying for has a need, it's got a problem, either it's got too much work, or someone has left or whatever, and it's looking for someone to fulfil that role. So, your job is to present to them why you have the skills to do it. Wonderfully put. Exactly that. And aren't they lucky to get you? I want to talk a little bit about this three- to five-year plan, because it can sound quite glib, but then you start to think about it, and you think, well, what does that actually mean? So, I'd love to know what you have in mind. Whether this is, by the end of the three to five years, this is where I would like to be, or whether you're sort of saying, well, in year one, I want this, in year two, I want this, and then you start breaking it down. I mean, yeah, can you give us a bit of an overview as to how you can start to approach this? Because, again, we are all humans, people face this in a different way when writing it down, because a lot of people I particularly speak to are perhaps coming towards the end of their careers. But likewise, if you were a graduate just leaving university, you may be a lot more financially focused, actually, and that you need to be earning £60,000 in five years' time in order to be able to move in with their girlfriend and wherever they wish to be, and then they work back from there, because that might exclude certain industries that don't pay very well. If you're towards the end of your career, you may have sufficient funds that actually in three years' time you're going to retire anyway. So, actually you don't need the five years, you only need the three years, and therefore, how much money is it that you need, and what sort of organisation is it important that you work for? And it might be that you want to work for a charity, it may be that you wanted to give something back within that, and everything in between, really. Some people have got to a certain point in their life, and they've never had a pension because they've worked for small businesses. Well, in that instance, you may wish to work for a medium or large organisation where the pension schemes can be incredibly beneficial to the individual. Now, again, when going through this exercise, you're unlikely to find a role that has got everything for you. But if you've done this exercise in advance, you'll know that, if there's an organisation that might be offering£10,000 more, but if the pension's lousy, you know that doesn't fit as well in the three- to five-year plan as it would have done. And that's why I ask people to spend the time trying to do this exercise, so that they make the right decision as and when their job offers come in. And it comes back to what we were saying earlier about this temptation just to start applying for jobs, any jobs, because you just got that feeling of panic setting in. But spending this time really can reap dividends. Yeah. I think the other thing, if you just start applying for roles left, right and centre as well, the way that the industry has moved is a lot of people, because of diversity, will advertise all roles externally, even though they've got an internal candidate. And if you start this process very early on and send out, I don't know, 10 applications, and you get rejected for all of those, it can be completely heart-breaking. And I would hate for anybody to get their confidence knocked because of that. Because actually, the way that you're most likely to find a new role is not through an agency or a sort of an unknown application. It's more likely to be through your network and somebody finding you the role because of your reputation. Actually, two thirds of people get a role from either a referral from a friend, an ex-colleague, an ex-boss or their network, than versus the third that have just applied randomly to random jobs. So, I just don't want people's confidence to get knocked, because you have to be quite robust and quite resilient. And this comes back to seeing yourself as a product. If it was a Hoover that you were selling, and you got knocked back nine times, and the 10th landed, it wouldn't knock your confidence. That's why you've got to see yourself as a product. When you've got this kind of change, you've potentially got options, and you've got the option to reassess and maybe take yourself into a different direction, which is great. You don't necessarily get many of those opportunities. But on the other hand, it can open things up really, really widely. And a previous guest gave the analogy of driving into an empty car park and not really knowing which space to park in. So, I was wondering how you balance focus, because I think, especially if time is limited, you do need a certain amount of focus, with shiny object syndrome. And maybe, I mean, when I went through the outplacement, I signed up for pretty much every course they had, and suddenly, it was like, oh, maybe I could do that, or maybe I could do that, or maybe I could do that. And I mean, I enjoy learning about lots of different things, but then you realise that it detracts the time from what you could be spending on better. Yes, 100%. I think, you know, I guess find somebody in your life who's going to keep you on track with it, if you are prone to that sort of thing. It is good to go into the car park and have a choice of any space. However, really work out why you do need to work and how quickly you need to work as part of the three- to five-year plan and how quickly that needs to happen in order to get there. I mean, the only other thing that I would say is that, just because, I'm going to be slightly cautious on this because I don't actually encourage this behaviour, but I do get people that can then be a little bit overwhelmed, just remember that any offers that you get in, it doesn't have to be forever either, whilst you're still working this through. And if it doesn't go right at the end, when you've accepted this role, and it doesn't work out, you've already managed to get one job, so you can continue the work that you started and working out who you are and where you want to be, that can continue in the future. It doesn't have to be the biggest decision in your life, the biggest crossroads that you've ever come to. It is a role, we all hope that it's going to be the very best in the whole widest world, but it's not to say that you can't get another job in the future if it doesn't work out. Yeah, that's a really important point, isn't it? Because there's a temptation to want to get that perfect role, and it doesn't just apply on redundancy, but more widely if you're looking at other jobs, and you're paranoid about making the wrong choice, but the fact is, you won't really know until you get there. I mean, yes, there's a lot of preparatory work you can do to stop it, but sometimes when the rubber hits the road, it is going to be the wrong decision, and it's not the end of the world. And it really is. And organisations are constantly changing and ever increasingly quickly, and you really do need, as you say, when you join the organisation, it's the perfect point for you and the organisation, but if one moves one way or the other, it just means that you do this again, and the more you... You know, just be brave is what I would say, yeah. This is going to fall squarely in the, 'well, you would say that, wouldn't you' category, but coaching, it can be really hard to do this by yourself when you are literally just inside your own head, and this is one of the massive value points of coaching, is that it gets it out there, and you've got someone who's asking you useful questions to help you to develop and sharpen your thinking. If you're not getting coaching paid for, are there ways that you can still get the benefit of that kind of experience, even if it's not an outplacement package or something like that? Absolutely. I would really encourage everybody to ask for help. We're not good at asking for help. It is slightly a cultural thing for the UK, but we're just not great at asking for help. Anybody that these days has been through a redundancy, there are very, very few people who haven't had experienced some form of change in their career, the days where you joined, I don't know, a bank, and you stayed with them until you got your pension, it's just gone, everybody has experienced change, and I would say 99.9% of people out there also want to help individuals. And if you ask for help, you will receive it. My coaching would be, choose who you're going to ask for what advice. Some people will be very good at giving you emotional support. Another person you can go and say,'Can you introduce me to your HR person in your organisation, and do you know if there's any vacancies out there?' So, a very direct question that somebody can help you with very, very easily and very, very simply. Another person will be very good at, will you take a look at my CV and see what you see? Would you hire me for this job on that basis? Can you look at my LinkedIn profile? What's it saying to you? Is there anything missing for you? So, literally, there are in your networks, and it's family, it's friends, it's relatives, people do want help, and it doesn't have to be somebody in your immediate network in order to give you that help, support and a little bit of love, quite frankly, because that's what you need, isn't it, at this time, really? And we all need help along the way, and people want to help. What they don't want is somebody being a victim. And so, just please ask for help. We've all been there. You don't need to be embarrassed in any way, shape or form. What you need is to sell yourself as a product to an organisation, and we're going to be jolly lucky to have you. And something that occurs to me, when you're going through the exercise of figuring out what you want to do, figuring out what your strengths are, just in terms of helping you to get that structure, something like AI, ChatGPT, or whichever one you use, I'm sure can definitely help with here. You give it a prompt, even to say, 'You are an outplacement coach. Your job is to help me to figure out what my next steps are. What questions should I be asking myself?' And bonus points, use the voice version where you're literally speaking to it. 100%. I've even seen some exercises where they throw a load of verbs at you, and you can say yes and no to those and get the help, or it does the research for you. So, you say yes, I do like that. I'm not so bothered about that. I don't like that. And it can literally just help you pull out your strengths and weaknesses from that. And of course, the reason why the strengths and weaknesses are so important, Jeremy, is because if you're good at something, if it's a strength of yours, it means that it's probably something that you're going to be very good in a job at. And that can lead to an organisation and a job that you're going to thoroughly enjoy. Which can be an oxymoron for some people, I do understand. Let's talk a little bit about the networking. I mean, it's a topic that I'm very pro. I think it's one of the best things you can do, and even reaching out to someone that you've never spoken to before, but you think they could be, I don't know, maybe they're in an industry that you're interested in finding out more, I find it's an incredibly valuable tool. It's also one which a lot of people are resistant to. I think it comes in the slightly icky feeling, the same as marketing for a lot of people. So, what are some high-level tips that you can give to people to break it down and to make it feel a bit less scary? I suppose it comes under the asking for help category. It absolutely does. And an exercise I ask people to do is, write down almost their A contacts which are contacts that they know, they know you, there's a warm relationship there, and that they come under the category of I'm going to reach out to them first, because they're the most likely to be able to help you, give your advice, will invest time in you. They're best to meet them face to face actually, because you'll get an awful lot out of that, if you possibly can. You've got your B category contacts that are people that are influencers that can help you, and they know of you, don't necessarily know you well. And then, you've got your C category which are either organisations that you know your skills will lend themselves to, or that you can find and ask the questions for help on. So, for instance, it may be that you work in financial services, you've got your top 30 organisations that you'd like to go and work at. Therefore finding, reaching out to the talent acquisition person at those 30 organisations and asking an insightful question at a way where it takes a lot more involvement, but it's still networking in order to ask for help. Yeah, yeah. And starting with a quick win is a great thing to do, because I know how much resistance I've felt in myself before hitting send on that email or picking up the phone. But if you can reduce the risk by starting off with someone that actually knows pretty well, and you know that they're going to say yes, and you know that they're going to speak to you then you, it kind of creates your own momentum, and then suddenly, you find that you're reaching out to these random people you've never spoken to before, because you've got that initial experience. It just really helps. 100%. Absolutely. I think the other thing that I would say, though, is, if people don't come back to you first time, do not be scared of reaching out again. People run very, very busy lives, and it might be that they're on holiday, and literally, the CV, the email's got lost in spam. Please just, it's so easy for me to say, but please don't take it personally. Keep asking for help, people will come back to you eventually, and you just might need to phrase questions slightly differently or go in with a different approach. But don't take it personally. They may have just had a really difficult week themselves, and therefore will get to it, but don't be scared to follow it up. Yeah, yeah. There's a guy I follow who, one of his sayings is, I think, the riches are in the niches, he's American, but the fortune's in the follow up. And it's exactly that point. And a tool that I have used, especially if you're doing a lot of this outreach, I was introduced to a tool called FollowUpThen, I can't remember if it's dot com or dot io, where you set up an account, you blind copy in an email like a date, so you set it like seven days from now, and then seven days from now, if you haven't heard back, it pings you an email saying, 'You haven't heard from this person. Follow up with them.' And it's incredibly helpful for just keeping track of things. Genius. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let's talk about setbacks, because you're going to get them. There's going to be the people who don't reply, or there's going to be the CV that goes unanswered. Or there's the job interview, which you thought went really well, and then it comes back as, sorry, we've offered the position to someone else. Everyone knows, oh, it's not personal, you just need to pick yourself up, you just need to get back on the horse. But it's really, really hard. Have you've got any mental exercises, mental tips that people can use just to kind of get themselves back on track when they get a setback? Part of me wants to say, you'd be better answering this, Jeremy than I would. What I would say is, what I see is, people get to a final stage of the interview, and they stop. This is a real practical tip, rather than a mental one. So, I will come back to what you actually asked me, but if I could just share this, because it is a real practical tip. You need to keep many horses in this game, until you have started with that organisation. Because things can go wrong at the vetting stage, it can go wrong at the office stage. You need to keep all of those horses running if you are out of work until the day you start with that organisation. And then, be really clear about how you turn down those other organisations in a really kind way. But you do need to keep going on that. But on a mental level of dealing with setbacks, this is why I say, see it as a job, see it as a product. It does come back to being your own best friend. If you are on your own, and you can't talk to somebody about it in your network, recognise that this is not about you, it is about the economy. We've just entered into, in July, 36 months of perm recruitment going down in the UK. It's incredibly tough out there for people. And if you are on your own, and you can't speak to your network about it, you do need to be kind to yourself. You need to almost position yourself as your best friend and say, what advice would you give to yourself at this point if you were going to be really kind? If you were your best friend, what advice would you give? Give yourself a big hug, you know, virtually or however, and then go, right, what am I going to do to move forwards, not backwards on this, and what plan am I going to put in place to move forward? Because you just need to keep moving forward on this stuff. Hopefully, that's helpful, but that's certainly what I do if I meet setbacks in my life. Yeah, there's a lot to be said for just trying to detach yourself from the process, which is really hard. But yeah, recognising that if someone is turning you down for a job, it's not that it's a problem with you, it's that they have found what they perceive to be a better solution, and that's fine. They're looking for the solution to their problem. If they didn't think that you were it, okay, then maybe there's something you can think about in terms of the way you present yourself, but it could just be it wasn't the right fit. And actually, you may have had a lucky escape. If I may just give one last top tip on that, but don't feel as though you can't keep in touch with the organisation if you did come second. I have had it in quite a few instances where after three months the other person hasn't worked out, or they didn't start. And the recruitment team, the line manager, the agency will be really delighted to receive you back. Because if you were genuinely the second horse, I think everybody knows, but don't have an ego around it. And people have had job offers three months on, and it's worked out brilliantly. We all know that recruitment can be flawed. I'd just like to circle back to something we were talking about earlier, and that was the treating the whole looking for a job like a job, but also making space, making time to have a bit of enjoyment. And I wonder if we can dig into that, because it occurred to me that it's very rare to get any kind of extended break in one's career. Certainly, if you're working the whole time, then maybe you'll get a week, two-week holiday, and a few other breaks dotted around. But unless you're able to take some kind of a sabbatical, then having that extended break is pretty rare. And you've kind of got to balance that with the uncertainty, but I wonder if there is some merit in kind of thinking, okay, well, maybe I do have four weeks, six weeks, 10 weeks, I can make the most of that time to do those things that you just can't do in a one- or two-week holiday. Yes, 100%. It does depend on the level of pay-out. It depends on how much of a break you can actually give yourself. And it depends on, a lot of people will take a small break, but then actually find it too distracting. And that's why I say, give yourself a job, so that if you're going to work four hours a day on this, have the four hours, but then enjoy the sabbatical. And indeed, it doesn't mean to say that you have to do it in the UK, does it, with modern technology. Certainly not the first part of the search, because it's going to take you a while to get those interviews in. So, yes, absolutely, it is a break for you potentially. But it does depend where you are on how quickly you need to find a new role. Yeah. And it's the uncertainty, isn't it? I guess the ideal situation would be that you find that job, but then you're in a position where you can actually push back your start date by three or four weeks and actually enjoy the time off. I mean, I was fortunate enough that between two jobs I took off, I think, five weeks, and then between that job and the job I had after that, I ended up having 12 weeks off. I mean, admittedly, I sort of got married and went on honeymoon in that time, so I was quite busy. But I knew that I had the job to go to, and it was an amazing break just having that time off. So, I think not losing sight of the possibilities, it's definitely worth keeping that in mind. And I do find that organisations, and I know there's an awful lot of press about how awful organisations can be, but also, I do find that organisations can be open to you saying, 'I would like four weeks off in this period of time, because I'm never going to get it again, and once I start with you, I'm going to be working so hard.' And they're very open to that if they're the right sort of organisation. Or even, I'll come in, do two weeks as a handover, can I then have a break? It can also be something that I have seen organisations be open to. Worth asking the question. The worst they can do is say no. Exactly. I was going to say, what haven't we covered? And I'm sure there's an awful lot we haven't covered or more detail we could go into. But what haven't we covered that we should just to sort of close out this conversation? That I want to just top up a little bit on your network point, actually, the ability and the information that is out there in organisations and people that do want to help you, I think I would just, everything that you said about being a huge fan of a network, I think use your network, use those people that you know, it doesn't matter if you haven't been in touch with them for six months, they will not be offended. In the business network, reaching out to individuals, asking specific questions, rather than just, can I meet up for a coffee, it won't necessarily land very well, but the use of clever questions in order to enable you to get better insight to an organisation, get feedback on something that you're doing or getting a referral, just don't be afraid to use that network and ask for help within it. So, I think we've covered both topics, but that whole seeing it as a job, that you're selling a product, that you're going to have to do all of the research, all of the hard work and all the hard graft in order to get there is going to be the way that you're going to get your next job and the one that you really, really want. And just being really resilient around that is what you need to be. Yeah. And on the networking side, one question which I have found has been incredibly powerful is, at the end of the conversation, who else should I speak to? Because that, I mean, I have found myself that I've started with one conversation, and that person's introduced me to X, and X has introduced me to Y, and Y has introduced me to Z, and just through that one conversation, I've had five or six different conversations, often, in fact, usually with people that I would not have known about and otherwise never have met. Yeah. The other one, I would think, because that is genius, and if you get to ask a second one, because I would ask that one first, is there any feedback about anything that I've said that you'd like to give me? Oh, that's good. I like that. Because it's almost your trail for your interview about how you're coming across, and yeah, that can really help, and it can make you tweak your CV, make you tweak your LinkedIn profile, and then constantly improving as you go through the journey of finding a new job. Because it is a journey. I'm going to have to add that question to my networking meetings. Jeanette, this has been absolutely fantastic. I mean, so much value in there, loads and loads of practical tips. Where can people go to find you? Oh, well, I'm very easily got hold of, either through our company website at The Curve Group, or on LinkedIn, you can direct message me on LinkedIn, and I am here to help. We talk about transforming working lives in our aim of our organisation, and it is genuinely meant, it's why I get out of bed. So, if I can help somebody, in addition to what you've heard today, my fumbling around on questions, please do get in touch, because it gives me sheer delight to be able to help people in business. I will put links in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Jeremy. Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Jeanette Ramsden of The Curve Group. Chances are, if you've been made redundant, you could well be feeling a little bit under pressure to start applying for jobs and just to make progress as quickly as possible, just with that uncertainty ahead of you. But one of the most important messages I picked up from Jeanette is that it is worth taking the time and doing a few exercises on self-reflection, which will actually set you up for success much better than if you dive headlong into job applications. Chances are you will have some time, and treating the job search and the redundancy process as a job in itself and allocating the time for that as you would if you were working, for me, that's a great mindset approach and just a good way of keeping you accountable. Also, it's always worth remembering, it's the job that's being made redundant, not you, the person. It's really easy to take it personally, but it really does help to put a little bit of mental distance between you and the fact that you've been made redundant. Show notes for this episode are at changeworklife.com/218, that's changeworklife.com/218. And in terms of self-reflection exercises, do take a look at changeworklife.com/happy, that's changeworklife.com/happy, whether you're being made redundant or not, there's a couple of exercises there which really do help you just to figure out what it is that's going to make you happy and satisfied with your work. So, do take a look at those exercises. Once again, they're at changeworklife.com/happy. Now, I mentioned at the end of the last episode that I wasn't sure whether I might be taking a bit of a break because we're having some building work done at home, and I didn't know whether that was going to mean I had to pause doing podcast interviews for a little bit, and to be honest, I still don't know. So, I've managed to get this episode done, but I'm not sure about future episodes, so the best thing you can do is just stay subscribed. Once I restart, whether I take a break or not, then the episodes will come straight to you as soon as they're published. So, do make sure that you're subscribed to the podcast, and I can't wait to see you next time. Cheers. Bye.