Letting go and redefining success - with Iris Manly

#223: Wani Iris Manly is a corporate lawyer, keynote speaker and bestselling author.  She explains the different definitions of success, why she transitioned from practicing law to speaking, and why she moved her life from America to Paris. 

What you’ll learn

• [03:35] How Wani became a lawyer. 
• [05:15] How Wani found out she was a good public speaker. 
• [06:22] How Wani set up her own law practice. 
• [09:18] What it’s like moving from working at an international law firm to starting your own firm. 
• [10:33] How to start your own law firm. 
• [14:09] The challenges involved with working with artists. 
• [14:55] Strategies for building a book of clients. 
• [17:55] What you need to know to be rich as an attorney. 
• [18:52] How your lifestyle changes when you start your own business. 
• [20:25] The benefits of having your own law firm. 
• [21:20] How to get clients with social media. 
• [23:05] Why Wani is transitioning from practicing law to public speaking. 
• [26:38] The stage Wani’s law practice was at when she moved to Paris. 
• [31:55] What it feels like to move yourself and your business across the world. 
• [35:35] How to build a sustainable business from what you're passionate about. 
• [37:00] The business behind public speaking. 
• [38:15] What makes people want to do business with someone. 
• [39:30] How your identity shifts when you stop practicing law. 
• [43:05] What to do when you feel stuck in a career. 
• [45:05] How to define success. 
• [46:40] How Wani wants her life and business to progress in the future. 
• [48:01] How to reframe the way you view wealth and income. 
• [49:45] The benefits journaling can have on your life. 

Resources mentioned in this episode
Please note that some of these are affiliate links and we may get a commission in the event that you make a purchase.  This helps us to cover our expenses and is at no additional cost to you.

• Get Out of Survival Mode and Live the Life You Really Want, Wani Manly
• Business Networking International
• Stephen Covey
• Bob Proctor
• The Artist’s Way, Julia Cameron
• Change Work Life Coaching

For the show notes for this episode, including a full transcript and links to all the resources mentioned, visit:

https://changeworklife.com/letting-go-and-redefining-success/

Re-assessing your career?  Know you need a change but don't really know where to start?  Check out these two exercises to start the journey of working out what career is right for you!

Transcript

0:00

Whose definition of success are you judging yourself by? Are you setting your own standards, or are you appeasing someone else? And would you, in pursuit of your own definition of success, sell up everything you own and move to a completely different country? That's what we're discussing in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life. Hello and welcome to Change Work Life, the show where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm a career coach, you can find out more about that at changeworklife.com/coaching, and in each episode, my guests and I bring you tips, strategies, and stories to help you enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life. You've spent time and money on your education. You've spent years building up your career, and you've earned a reputation as a professional advisor who can be trusted to deliver. If you were in that position, would you sell or give away almost everything you own and move to another country where you have no contacts, don't speak the language, and have no real plan for what you're going to do when you get there? Well, that's exactly what Wani Iris Manly did. Having built up her own global boutique law firm, Wani decided to change the direction of her life and career, which included a move to Paris, despite not speaking a word of French. She's now a TEDx speaker, change and leadership consultant, and author of the best-selling book Get Out of Survival Mode and Live the Life You Really Want. Wani, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Jeremy. So good to be here. So, I've not really done you justice with that very brief introduction, so why don't you start with what are you about, what do you do, what are you famous for? Gosh, I would have to say I am definitely famous for my crazy move to Paris, exactly how you actually described it. I am really known for just being very courageous and brave, and just really letting go of the rules. Because I'm very much your audience in terms of professional, I went down and had a traditional path, and we just have a specific role that we're supposed to take in life, and I just completely flipped the script. I would say, for me at this point, it's more about, there are so many people that are like me, and they're like you, and just really, they're looking for that permission slip to be able to do the same. Maybe quite not as drastic the way that I did it, which is like coming to a different country where you don't know one word of the language and completely starting all over again, but that could take a form of however you want that to be. And so, for you, if the question is, so what do you do, what's your, air quotes, day job, what would you describe that as? So, I actually have two. So, I am a speaker on change, a keynote speaker, and I'm also an IP and business lawyer. And so, I've actually kept my traditional job. I've just actually made it non-traditional, just made it in a way that actually works for me. Because it's kind of like the quote, I think this is when John Lennon was asked in high school what did he want to be, and he said, 'I want to be happy.' And the teacher was like, 'No, you don't understand the assignment.' He's like, 'No, you don't understand life.' And so, for me, I've just made it my intention, my focus really is to take what I actually went to school for, because I personally believe that everything is part of the divine economy, nothing actually is for waste, and to create it in a way that actually works for you. So, for me, that's speaking, and it's just practising, I work with people that I actually want to work with. And that actually includes speaking about law in itself as well, too. What got you into law in the first place? Gosh, you know, I was actually groomed to be a lawyer. So, my background is, I am an American, but my family is West African from Liberia. And my father was actually former Minister of Finance for Liberia when I was actually quite little. And so, in African culture, you're pretty much one of two professions. You are either a lawyer, or you're a doctor. And so, my mom is a nurse, and I was actually quite afraid of actually getting kind of blood. And I was just raised like, we have what is called our White House, it's called the Executive Mansion, so I was actually raised there. I was just actually seeing my father liaison with so many different heads of state. And so, I kind of grew up in that atmosphere. It was just kind of like grooming towards that field. And so, that's actually how I became a lawyer. Do you ever think how things might have turned out if you hadn't been, as you put it, groomed to become a lawyer? So, if you had grown up in different circumstances. It's something I reflect on occasionally, what would I have done? What do you think you would have done? To be quite honest, I think I'd probably have done the exact same thing, because I genuinely like the law. I loved my education. I hate the fact how much it costs in the US, in terms of like, you know, we have student loans and all of that. But I look back, and I tell people I am successful because I am a lawyer, because I know the way how things work. And so, I probably would have gone on that path, maybe journalism, but eventually, I would have been speaking, because I've always been a speaker. I've always been a very naturally gifted speaker. And so, I think eventually I would have ended up that route. But yeah, I think definitely, I would have been a lawyer anyway. You said you've always been a naturally gifted speaker. How did that show up? And when did that show up? You know, there's this thing that you hear about, the number one fear is public speaking. I've just never been afraid of that. I've never, I've always been thrust into, okay, perform and do this, and do that. And I was just never at a loss for speaking. So, it's just something that really came quite naturally to me. And so, that's just what I mean by that. And I just realised, now that's really what my purpose is or what I'm just actually meant to be doing. And so, it's interesting now, I am more speaking about law, less the practise of it. Like someone else can do, say for example, the data work, trademark applications and contracts and things like that. So, I'm guessing that we're going to come to a point where you're starting to realise that your legal career, to that point, isn't shaping up the way you want it to. Before we get to that point, and even before you start to have those thoughts and those realisations, where does your career take you? Where do you go from law school practise to setting up your own practise? Well, actually, initially, I went to law school in Chicago, and then I also did a couple of study abroads in Spain and also Italy as well too. And I always wanted to be an international lawyer because that's just the life I actually grew up in, of living between multiple countries. At the time, it was living between Liberia, West Africa, and the US. And so, for me, from there, I was hired with the firm in Miami, and they did a bait-and-switch on me. What I mean by that is that, actually, my intention was to be an international lawyer to do deals, corporate law, and that's what I was actually hired for, but then once I showed up, I was doing two and a half years of litigation, commercial litigation, which I actually just hated it. But what I didn't realise at the time was that the partner was actually trying to prepare me to be a very good contract lawyer in the sense of, you know, how are you going to know how to draft a great contract if you don't know when a breach is, like, what actually happens? And so, now from that litigation experience, I know when I draft a contract, I'm thinking of, okay, when something actually goes wrong. But the problem was, I actually had no life. I was working seven days a week, billing over 2,000 hours, and I was just doing work that I absolutely hated. So, there was no joy in it whatsoever. And I was just, okay, I definitely believe when you first get out of school as a young associate or a younger intern, you definitely have to pay your dues. But at the time, it was like, I was having chest pains. I found myself at a quite young age going to, I was doctor shopping, going from doctor's offices trying to diagnose chest pains. And I remember it was one doctor I actually went to, he looked at me, and he was like, 'Young lady, how old are you?' I was like in my late 20s or early 30s. And I told him, and he says, 'Well, are you married?' And I said no. And he says, 'Do you have any kids?' And I said no. And he says, 'Do you have a house?' I said I have a condo. And he says, 'What do you do?' And I said I'm a litigation attorney. And so, he was like, 'And you're not sleeping at night?' And I was like, no. So, he says to me, 'Okay, well, I'm 70-something years old. I have a wife. I've got 18 grandkids. I've got a boat. I've got a mortgage. I've got this. I've got that. And I sleep quite well at night. In other words, the job is stressing you out or the way you actually work.' And he told me to quit. And I was like, well, obviously, I can't. I actually own a home. I have a condo. So, that was really like the first inkling for me. And so, I needed to change where I was actually working. And from that visit, actually, I ended up finding myself having a biopsy for breast cancer, because from him, it kind of went to that. But everything was fine. But I just realised the stress I was actually working under, something really had to change. And so, that led to me actually leaving the firm and actually starting my own law firm. Some might say that leaving a firm and starting your own business is more stressful rather than less stressful. I didn't know that at the time, and it wasn't my intention. The thing was like, I was in Miami at the time, I was working for an international law firm, and the firm was actually based in Chicago. And so, I was getting paid Chicago salary. Miami actually has one of the lowest salaries in the United States. And so, what I kept hearing after interviewing for a year was, 'Wani, you're too expensive.' And the thing was, I just couldn't afford to make a dollar less than I was making because I had a mortgage. I had just bought a beautiful condo. I was living the American dream, driving a Porsche. I just, I had it all. And I was just like, I just literally could not afford to make anything less than that. And so, after a year of hearing, "Wani, you're too expensive," I was like, you know, maybe I'm just meant to go off on my own, do my own thing anyway. And I said, you know what, Mitchell taught me well. And so, that's what I did, but I had no idea. I mean, at the time, I knew nothing about how to run a business, only how to be a lawyer. And so, I was like, you know, I'm just going to throw on my own shingle, and I've never looked back. And that was almost 18 years ago. So, talk me through a little bit what that looked like. You go from being, I get the impression still comparatively junior in an international law firm in Miami, to starting your own law firm. I guess once you made that decision, where do you even start with that? It was interesting. I felt like, because I kept hearing you're too expensive, after a year, that that was a path for me. But I also was afraid to do it. And it wasn't until when I actually quit, the day that actually happened, a friend of mine actually invited me to go to a jewellery party in Miami. It's like a really wealthy neighbourhood. And I didn't want to. And she just kept begging and kept begging. I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to. And so, I told her, I said, okay, okay, fine, I'll go. I finally acquiesced. But I went not super dressed up, which is not the decorum for Miami. And I actually met my very first client at that party. He was a head of a management company, and he worked with a lot of celebrities in the NFL, in the NBA, in the music industry. And he just asked me what I did, and I said I'm a lawyer. He says, 'Well, who do you work for?' And I just said my own company. At the time, nothing was formed. There was no filings in the state of Florida at all. And he was like, 'I would like your information.' And so, I gave him my contact number, and he hired me to set up his LLC. And that was my very first client. And that's how I started out. What made him go with you, do you think? He told me it's because I said I worked for myself. And he was really impressed with that. So, he was like, 'Wow, to be quite so young.' And he was like, yeah, he said he chose me because I said I worked for myself, that I had my own business. And your practise at that stage, so having come out of litigation, were you focusing on litigation, or had you, by that stage, consciously decided that you were going to move in a different direction? I had consciously decided I was only going to do contract work. I was going to do corporate business law. And that's actually the work that he was actually farming out to me, which is more in line. It did kind of show up in a form of entertainment law. So, I was working a lot of entertainment law contracts, but at the time, I kind of got tired of it because I was working with independent artists, and they just weren't quite serious in a sense. And that's the issue with artists. When you're working with them, they're just so focused on the craft. And so, I'm very corporate in the sense of, I like doing things by the book, it's just how I see things. And so, I just need to work with more serious people. I like, for example, work on the business and with the management companies, but there was still a lot of like that, ah, the things just kind of come up in the entertainment industry, it's a lot of, you're going out a lot, you're partying, and I was just like, you know what, just give me like the straight corporate route. So, I just began to steer my career more in that way, because it was just really hard because I came from a big firm or mid-sized firm, working with corporate clients. In fact, most of our clients were the Latin subsidiaries, because we're in Miami, of big Latin American companies. And so, there I was working with young artists, convincing them, 'Hey, you need to be looking at an NDA,' which is basic common stuff in corporate business law. So, for me, it just felt like, I had kind of taken a drop in the level of gravitas I was used to working with. I mean, yeah, these people were big in the entertainment world, but I didn't care. I didn't care about all that. For me, it was like, okay, the conversations I was actually having, and no, I didn't necessarily want to be out every single weekend at this event and that event, connecting with those people and that people, things like that. That's interesting because I'm sure there's lots of people who work in big commercial law firms who go, 'Wow, acting for these artists, going to all these parties, that sounds really cool, that sounds really fun, that sounds really glamorous.' It doesn't sound like that was what it was like for you at all. It wasn't for me because, I mean, to be quite honest, a lot of them are broke. And so, it was just like, yeah, you just can't work with broke people. And I like that, in terms of the going out and partying, but I'm also very much a businesswoman. And when it comes to business, I'm quite serious. And I just wasn't working with people that were quite serious, or they just didn't quite have the capacity to really get the legal part. And they were just all about the craft in itself, which is probably true, right? I mean, they're focused on the music. But it was a little bit too much of a convincing on my part and just too much of a neediness, that I find was different with corporate clients or CEOs of real businesses, which is what I prefer working with. Visionaries, like real visionaries in a different aspect. Yeah. So, what was your strategy for building your book of clients, in particular when you made that pivot out of the more entertainment-focused clients? It was a lot of networking. It was a lot of going to a lot of different business groups. This particular client was quite well known in Miami, so I met a lot of people through him and made a lot of connections through him. Miami is a very social culture. It is a culture where a lot of deals do happen, say, for example, on the golf course or at a bar. So, there's a little bit of that. But I went to like the early BNI meetings, which a lot of which is kind of like, let me get as many cards as possible type of thing. And then, at the end of the day, it's just because, when you start doing good work for people, your name just gets around, and people just start referring you to other clients. It became that. But it wasn't quite sustainable. So, I did struggle for quite a bit. And then again, like I said, I knew nothing about running a business, only how to be a lawyer. And so, there was a lot of what is a learning curve for me. I did a lot of free services in terms of just overcompensating, things like that. But yeah, it was a huge learning curve for me. And did you, at the time, have mentors or advisors who were helping you with that, or were you basically just learning it as you went along? Literally, it was baptism, trial by fire. I was learning as I went along. And so, yeah, the great thing is I actually had my mentor, he's passed away now, which was my former boss, because he was really, really hard on me. And I remember one time when I was actually working before I left him, one day I'd gone to court, and I was just absolutely hating it. I was just hating the existence at that time. And I just came, and I looked at him, I was like, 'Mitchell, I hate this, I can't do this anymore.' I was just like, 'I don't like the bait-and-switch, it's not what you hired me for.' And he literally said to me, 'I know you wanted to do corporate law. I thought you would want to work with CEOs.' But he was like,'How do you think I'm actually teaching you to be working for this calibre of clients?' And he asked me, 'So, okay, what kind of court cases are you working?' And I was like, they're all breach of contract. And he says to me, 'How are you going to know how to draft a good contract if you don't know, when things go wrong, what to look for in them?' And so, for me, in running my own firm, I always, to this even day, the way that I run my business is actually what and how Mitchell taught me. Even the signature block that's on my emails, to this day, 20-something years later, it's from Mitchell. And so, I did my firm in terms of what he taught me. And so, I realised, okay, he was really hard on me. And he also told me as well, too, 'I know you're not going to stay with me. So, I'm preparing for you to work on your own.' So, I had that. Other than that, there was nobody else. I'm intrigued by this bait-and-switch. The more you talk about it, it sounds as though it wasn't what you expected, but possibly in hindsight, it was a really good thing. It was the best thing to ever happen to me. It really was. Like I said, I mean, the first day he had me working on, I was reviewing, because he was always one of the best tax attorneys in South Florida, and I was working on tax levy cases. And I was like, what the hell is this? And he said to me, he was like, 'Listen, you want to be rich as an attorney? You need to know tax law, you need to know corporate law.' And he was like,'You'll never be broke', at that time. And so, yeah, everything he was teaching was things that I absolutely hated. They were just the unsexy work of law. They were the grunt work. But it literally taught me everything that I needed to be on my own, to be, like I said, April is going to be 18 years my law firm has been in existence on my own. What were the things which improved in terms of your lifestyle when you set up your own law firm, and what were the things which either stayed the same or, actually, got worse compared with your previous situation? Well, I found I was actually working twice as hard. I think that's one of the big mistakes people think when they want to incorporate, and they want to escape the, the 9-to-5 grind, is that you're going to have your own business and do whatever you want. I lost the structure, and so I realised that I really needed to have, I didn't have anyone I was actually accountable for that was on my neck, other than obviously the clients, but it was a different relationship. So, I actually found myself working a lot harder at the time. I had to go out and actually procure the business. When I was with the law firm, the business was actually just given to me, just like, hey, this is your client. So, that was a different element. I learned how to become a bookkeeper. I learned how all these different things that I had a full staff that was actually doing it for me at the firm. I had to learn on my own, but I'm also glad I did, because now I know, if I hire somebody to do my books, they just can't give me anything as when I don't know what I'm looking at. So, those things, yeah, definitely, I worked a lot harder, I was everything in the business, the bookkeeper, because I couldn't afford to hire anybody else when I first started out. And a lot of it too was the fear of me thinking, okay, how am I going to afford someone? Just the inconsistencies of the income coming in. Because the thing with your business, yeah, you can make as much money as you want in one month, but you can also make very little or no money as well too. And as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, you have to be able to weather all of that. So, that was the biggest thing. Okay, so that's a lot of things which maybe weren't so great, but what was the trade-off? What were the things which made you occasionally look up and go, 'Nah, this was the right thing to do.' It was literally doing the work that I wanted to do, because I always loved intellectual property. My favourite class in law school, and my professor, was my trademark class. I had a professor that actually worked for Coca-Cola, and her job was to literally travel the world and go and order Coke and see if their IP had been violated. And so, for me, I began to really only do work that actually I wanted to work with, or to work with clients I wanted to work on. But what really changed the game for me was actually social media. Because at that time, it was just doing like the traditional law practice. But then, with social media, that just completely changed the game because I began to level my personal social media, particularly my Facebook, and it just brought me tonnes and tonnes of clients. And so, I was like, yeah, this is a sweet spot. And then also, speaking as well, too. Do you find social media still works? Out of curiosity. It does. It is definitely changing. What I did is, for example, in 2020 during the pandemic, I saw where everything was going. And while people were making cookies and dancing on TikTok or whatever the case they were, I actually created a secondary business. And so, what I did was, I turned my personal Facebook into a walking billboard of legal information, and I just started educating people. And that brought me tonnes of clients, tonnes of clients. It just continues to actually do so. The difference being now is that with everything changing so quickly, with the gravitation to AI and agents and all this and all that, you're working with people's brains that are just so overstimulated. And so, the organic reach is not quite as there. There's just so much of information being flowed at people. But it still is a major driver for my business. As well as me speaking, because for me speaking, whether I'm on a podcast or a virtual stage or speaking in front of public, even if I'm not even speaking on law, it always brings me legal clients. Because once people find out I'm an attorney, oh my gosh, look, you're an IP lawyer, oh my God, I've got this, I've got that. So, it's just in my DNA at this point. So, what's the next, if you like, disruption? So, you've got your own practise that's starting to tick along, building up, but then I get the impression that there's something coming up out of the fog which is going to cause another change of direction. So, what's going on at that point? 100%. So, what I'm being asked to do, a major turning point for me, is really letting go of the law totally, and actually letting someone else do that, or I just have my firm be run by someone else and just me being 100% speaking. That is actually where the direction is, that is actually where the passion is, and that is just where life is actually heading. Or it's been kind of giving me the messages for quite some time, and I've just been teetering doing both. But it's just time for me to just step back and just do that and just to finish my books that I've been working on, that I don't quite seem to have the time to finish because I'm doing too many different things. And what's been the motivation for moving in that direction where you're handing over the day-to-day running to someone else? Gosh, it's more of a place of satisfaction, and it's just more of how satisfied do I really want my life to feel. For me, I always talk to people, you really have to define... Society tells you what success looks like, right? And for a lot of people, especially in America, it's having a lot of money, it's having the perfect marriage, the house, this, this, and that. But no one ever talks about your mental health. No one ever talks about how good do you feel in your body. And so for me, it's really come down to, I've worked so hard for all of my life, now I just want to be in the place of 100% satisfaction. Even though I changed, I went from doing work in the law side that I didn't necessarily like, to change it to where I do like it, I just find, okay, where am I the happiest, and it's when I'm on stage speaking. Was there an a-ha moment where that came clear, or has it been a very gradual move in that direction? It was a gradual move, because particularly the way that I moved to Paris, which was completely unplanned for me, I wasn't your typical American all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs about anything in France. France was never on my radar. In fact, I actually wanted to live and work in Italy. And so for me, when I got here, I didn't quite know what I was supposed to be doing here. I didn't know I was going to be a writer. I certainly wasn't going to take another bar exam in a different language. And so, I didn't quite know what was going to happen. But then, when I got here, what ended up happening was, I became infused with so much inspiration. I wrote my first book in 30 days. I wrote another one. And I've got three more titles that's under my belt that I'm actually working on. And so, I think for me, it was really doing the TEDx in Northern Ireland where it just really sealed the deal for me. One of the most triggering questions I would always get when I first moved to Paris was, "Wani, what are you doing here?" And I actually had no clue, Jeremy, because I didn't know either. All I knew was I was getting all of these signs, and I just was just crazy enough to actually follow it. But then, when I did the TED Talk, and my TED Talk experience, it was really, really good, and it was like a nine-month preparation for it, and when a title came to me of Changing Changes Everything, meaning like the internal shift is what causes the external life to actually change, the beauty, the joy, the satisfaction, that's actually where it comes forth. And so, for me, it was a TEDx moment that really sealed it in for me. The move to Paris is clearly a big, important milestone. I'd like to dig into that. At the point that you made the decision that you were going to move to Paris, what then did your legal practise look like? At the time, it was corporate law, it was IP law. It was few and far in between, sporadic, without a consistent client base. I was getting tired of constantly having to go out to different networking events, because I find those things very inauthentic. You can tell people come there with an agenda. Okay, I'm going to collect five business cards, and you're just collecting business cards, it's not really meaningful connections, things like that, to the point where I don't do any of those anymore. I don't need to. And so, it was challenging for me at the time in terms of getting consistent clients. But then, I switched over to a different practise of doing securities law, and that was a completely different practise of working with public traded companies and working with them. So, at that point, I had fewer clients, and I just worked with fewer clients, and it just took care of everything where everything became a lot more stable. But it still wasn't like a joy-filled practise, as I feel about IP law. But it was still working with CEOs, just on the public sector, public traded companies. So, tell me how you got from that to taking a decision to sell up and move to somewhere which, from what you said earlier, sounds like you didn't really have any connection with. Well, it was interesting. So, essentially, it was New Year's Eve on 2001, and I had plans to go and party with my friends like I always do for New Year's, and I just made this abrupt decision to not go out and party, but to instead just sit down and just analyse my year and to plan ahead for the next year. At that time, I didn't have a particularly good year. I had way more failures than I did successes. And I just basically began to do like a complete organic, okay, look, I wrote down everything that went right, I looked at everything that went wrong, and I basically looked at everything that went wrong and said, okay, what actually was really going on? And really, the truth of the matter is, I had fallen in love for the very first time, and at the time, my attention was really more focused on my relationship than it was on the business. And I was a brand new business owner. And I also believe that we create a reality based on what we believe about ourselves, about our capabilities. And so, I began looking into my mindset, and to see, okay, what was I believing myself to create, what I was actually creating. I believe in a higher power, and I prayed and asked God to help me to shift my beliefs about myself and my business and to giving clarity. And then, the next day, I just began to write everything I wanted to be, to happen, to experience in the forthcoming year. And I always say that that particular day, I feel like I wrote what I feel like Elon Musk must think like to create what he's created. Because at that time, when I was writing everything down, I was never thinking about the how. I was writing the most outrageous things. And I never said I wanted to leave Miami, but I desperately wanted a change. And so, what ended up happening was that two days later, I started getting all these signs, my life just became invaded with all these signs about Paris, Paris, Paris, French this, French that. And it was strange because I said I didn't have any connection whatsoever to France. So, I was like, okay, there's something here. I initially came like on a reconnaissance mission to see, okay, what were all the signs about. I booked a hotel in the 15th near the Eiffel Tower, because a lot of the signs I was getting was about the Eiffel Tower, and I got nothing. I got cold in there, or sick, rather, because it was quite cold in Paris. And I came in Miami clothing, which means I was ill-prepared. And then, I went to the French Riviera for the very first time. And I went to basically every single city along the Riviera except Saint-Tropez. And when I was in Monaco, I did receive a strong message that my life was in transition from a lawyer to a writer. And I was like, hmm, okay. That was the first time I got like, something was up. So, I returned back to Miami thinking that would be the end of it, and I just thought like, okay, I got the signs, that'll be the end of that, but it actually wasn't. The signs actually quadrupled. And I remember working one day in August in the building. It's one of the most beautiful days in Miami and a day where everyone's at the beach, there's not a cloud in the sky, and I was in an office building working on a contract. And I was like, God, you know. And I remember seeing yellow butterflies flying. I looked outside, and I was like, I didn't think butterflies flew quite this high. And when I said that, I just heard, 'Move.' And I looked at my chest, and I heard, 'Move to Paris.' And I said, you know what, why not? So, at the time, I was trying to sell my place anyway. And once I said an energetic yes to the universe, literally I found a buyer for my apartment or my condo. I sold that. I sold my car. I pretty much gave most of my things to charities. And then, yeah, I moved to Paris not knowing a single word of French, not knowing anyone. And I will say to people that it was never my ego that brought me here. Paris called me to it. And I felt that why I was actually coming here, it would be revealed to me. And so, I was just going to be crazy not to actually follow it. And worse come to worst, I could always move back to Miami. Leaving aside what other people might have felt at the time, were there any points where you thought, 'I must be mad doing this'? Oh, for sure. Especially my parents, they're old-school African parents, and they were like, 'What the hell are you doing?' And of course, it didn't make any sense because I knew nothing about France. I knew nothing about the country at all. And so, like I said, at the time, the most triggering question I would get would be, 'What are you doing in Paris?' Because I had no idea at all. But then, I just really can tell the people that I'm following an invisible calling that's calling me into a different direction for my life, that people looking on the outside would not be able to understand. I did get the, 'Well, you don't have any kids.' I'm like, yeah, I don't. So, yes, I can. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I got a lot of pushback. I did feel a lot of doubts because when I got here, I lost all of my clients. And so, it was a really a rude awakening of trust, of having faith and just really going by with, I really believe that each of us gets a calling in life to do something completely different with our lives. Whatever that looks like for everyone is different. But very few people follow that calling. Because we're clinging on to the known, to the safety of the job, the steady pay checks and, you know what I mean, the comforts. And not many people are willing to be uncomfortable. But I have found, everything you really desire is outside of your comfort zone and fear. I get the idea of being called to do something, so a particular type of work or a particular profession or something like that. In your case, it sounds like it was the place and the need to make a change that was calling you, but not at that point what you would be doing once you actually got there. Is that right? That's exactly right. Yeah. And I wasn't being called to give up the law right away. I didn't quite know I could actually rework the law firm to serve in a way that would actually bring on different clients. So, for example, I created a different company called Where Inspiration Meets Law, and it's all about helping entrepreneurs and business owners, CEOs, to follow a path of inspiration and to have your business to be legal at the same time as well too. Which is very much quite my life of following a path of inspiration, of what lights you up, and being about the business at the same time and merging both. And when you first made the move, you mentioned how there was always the possibility that you could go back to Miami and resume your old life, did you have a time scale or some kind of metric which you were thinking, 'I'm going to give it this long, and if this doesn't happen in that time, then I'll go back'? Actually, I had not. To me, the mantra for me is,'it's not working' is not an option. That's just how I operate. And truth be told, there wasn't going back to Miami at all, because I didn't have a home to go back to Miami to. I had sold my home. I had sold everything I actually had. When I said I could actually go back to Miami, meaning like I could always go back to America, it's not like I was compelled to be here in France. So, yeah, but there was nothing waiting back there for me because I had gotten rid of everything. The only thing I actually kept were my legal files, which by law I actually had to keep. So, that's just how for me it was. I'm going to sit here and make it work. And that's just how I do everything, stubbornly. There's a big difference between wanting to do a particular kind of work and getting people to pay you for doing that work. The bit that you mentioned there that was alongside the legal practice, the helping the entrepreneurs, that kind of thing, how did that go from idea, something you wanted to do, to sustainable business where you're actually earning whatever it is that you need to from that? Yeah, that was when I actually discovered the business of your personal story, your business of connecting with people. Because I know it was lawyers, we have a very traditional path, and it's all about the hard skills, right? The academics and the practise and the theory. But when I came to Paris, and I published a book about getting out of survival mode and the spiritual path and things like that, and I started speaking about my life, that actually drew clients to me. People came to me, okay, oh my gosh, I read your story, I read your book, I saw your blog, I saw your interview, I have a business. And so, my personal life story and the change that I had to make with my life and the courageousness actually brought me more legal clients. It brought me the most legal clients, actually. So, it brought you legal clients. What about clients who had seen what you'd done and wanted to do something similar themselves? Did that feature at all? You know what, that actually came later, because at first, I started speaking for free. And then, I was like, okay, actually there's an entire business model behind all of this. And then, I began to educate myself and to find mentors that actually show me, okay, what is the business of actually speaking. So, I actually started working with someone. He told me exactly what I needed to do of, you know, creating a website. And in the beginning, yeah, you do a little bit of free speaking to get your videos across, to get your testimonies, things like that. And then, you just start to do your signature talks, and then you just price yourself out, and you just start asking for it. And that's actually how I did. And so, there was a little bit of, I think with everything, like a learning curve. You know, my first speaking engagement, I got paid 50 euros, and it was a surprise actually. I was a keynote speaker at a conference in Geneva, Switzerland, and afterwards, the head of the organisation just slipped 50 euros in my hand. I took a picture of it. And now people pay five figures to pay me to speak. So, it's such a moment that I just really appreciate. But yeah, I had to learn that business as well too, like everything else. It's really interesting that you said that people became your legal clients on hearing your story, so you weren't presenting your expertise, you weren't showcasing how you solved legal problems, you were telling people your story, and yet that drew them to you to go, actually, I want this person to be my legal advisor. Yeah, it was. And then also, I know we're connected on LinkedIn, but we're not connected on Facebook, so for example, my Facebook is entirely built with legal information. And that's where I just spend most of my time in, because it just feels so much of my legal business. And so, it was a bit of both, but I can tell you that I get more people wanting to sign up with us, with my law firm, by me telling my story, or if I'm in the south of France in the summertime, people are just inspired by that. I think people just are wanting to have a life where they're living and where their life is like business, it's leisure. And I'm an example of that, that you don't have to be this sterile, in a cubicle, and just kind of living a life that just feels dexterous. It can actually be joyful and fun too. And for me, it's definitely a value of mine. So, people follow me because of that, and so they see both, and it attracts them. So, it's been just over two years since I left law as a career, and I still very much think of myself as a former lawyer, so I will often introduce myself as, 'Yeah, I'm a coach, I used to be a lawyer.' And for some reason, that's still important to me and is tied up in my identity. How has your identity changed, if it has at all? And in particular as you make this shift where you're not going to be substantially involved in the legal practice? Gosh, I myself struggle with identity, and I think it's because we've worked so hard for it. It's not something that just comes very quite easily. And in the US, it's quite expensive. And so, yeah, I have a hard time not putting ESG after my name, you know what I mean? But for me, I realised that, in order to, I think it's Joseph Campbell that says, in order to receive the life that you dreamed of, you have to give up the life that you created, so your old life is going to cost you your new life. And that means entirely a new identity. But I can tell you, for me, every day, it is a reprogramming of my mind of, okay, I'm a keynote speaker, I'm an award-winning speaker on change. I tell myself that I'm here to impact the world with my voice. And I'll tell you, no matter where I go and speak, because when it comes to live speaking for me, it's not on the law side, but it always brings me legal clients. So, no matter what, we can't escape it. I'll give a funny story. One time, I was in Miami, and I said to myself, okay, I'm off the law. I'm here for three days. You're going to have fun. And I swear to God, every Uber ride that I took, the question of law came up. The driver was like getting a divorce, there was all these stories about needing lawyers and things like that. And so, I just accept the fact of once a lawyer, always a lawyer, even if I'm not even practicing. And I also, because I'm so much into helping business owners protect their IP and their intellectual property, especially now, it's just never going to escape me. At some point, it always comes up for me, and I just accept it. And I think you can still be interested in it as well. So, my specialism used to be personal tax, and when questions come up about that kind of thing, it does still kind of interest me. I mean, I don't really want to practise and advise people on it, but I was in a Telegram group where the subject came up, and it was kind of like, oh, this is actually quite engaging, quite interesting. And that's kind of okay. Yeah. And like I said, I really believe that everything is part of our own divine economy, which means, energy doesn't die, it just reforms itself. And I just think that's what we're doing. So, yeah. So, you mentioned how law is one of those careers where there is a big investment, time, education, money, and that's something which causes people to get stuck. It's a prestigious, it's a well-paid career. It's something where you've had to put a lot into it to get to that point. And so, the idea of giving it up and turning to something else, that really makes people feel stuck. So, what advice do you have for people who are in that feeling stuck situation? First, I want to say I totally get it. Definitely have been there myself as well, and it's not easy. It's not easy at all. But at a certain point, you just really have to look at, okay, am I trying to protect an image, whom am I trying to appease? And for me, when I look down to it, it really was my parents. Because I saw when they first came in my previous law firm, I was working in an all-marble building, I had a semi-corner office, I was driving a Porsche Boxster. I had made it. I had bought a condo. And it was for my parents to say, 'I'm proud of you.' But was I completely happy at the time? Absolutely not. And so, for me, it just comes down to, okay, what do I value the most? So, I value my joy, my peace, my happiness, and just having compounding satisfaction. Yeah, and for me that really is. And so, I actually did not do it, you know, you have to do it in a way that actually does not harm you or your family. For example, if you don't have anything saved up, don't just quit your regular job, right? You can actually ease into it, not be as drastic about it. But there is going to have to be some type of letting go. Letting go. And the way I have actually come to bring, I do a lot of nervous system work or mindset work, is to look at it as, it's just being transformed into another energy form. But you are at a certain point going to have to make the decision. And there's a lot of trust in there that being a speaker can actually be much more impactful, much more prestigious. For me, I get a lot of joy whenever I speak and someone says to me, 'Oh my God, you changed my life, or you've given me permission to do something I think I couldn't do.' And to me, that's worth way more than the student loans and the initials and all that. So, what does success mean for you now? Oh my gosh, success means compound satisfaction. What I mean by that is, every day with what I'm doing and how am I feeling in my body, am I happy what I'm doing, when I wake up in the morning, am I happy to wake up, do I feel a sense of purpose. It absolutely includes money. One, I'm an American. Two, I do value wealth. And so, for me, yes, it does include making as much money as possible to have a secure future. It also, for me, includes just doing work that I absolutely love. So, for me, that's writing, that is speaking, that's actually connecting with people. It means having the time where I can create a life and a business, that actually I just enjoy the life that I actually am doing. So, do I have time to go to yoga? Do I have time to work out? Because my father has been quite sick. And so, when you see the cycle of life before your eyes, and you just start to see someone that you love that was completely healthy and completely had their own autonomy, quite not where they used to be, and realise, okay, at some point, we're all going to kick the bucket, you start to ask yourself, okay, what really matters in life? And so, for me, it's always coming from, okay, what am I doing? How am I feeling? Am I happy doing what I'm doing? Am I fulfilled? So, self-fulfilment for me is quite up there. What about the future? If we were having a conversation in five years' time, what do you think life might look like for you at that point? I definitely think from a business perspective, I see my work becoming expanded and vast, like a Stevie Covey type of enterprise where you just keep building out with the philosophies and things like that. I would definitely stay in France. I really do. I will always be going back and forth of having Europe as my base from a leisure, a lifestyle perspective. I definitely like the European lifestyle versus the American, the drive everywhere. Definitely more books in my future that I will be writing. There's like three more books that need to come out. And so, for me, it really will be about just expanding to certifications, just really growing and having as much impact as I can, because I think of where we're going, it's going to be so needed with all the digitising of humanity, and we're just going to be losing this human connection, and it's just going to be much more required. And I'm guessing that on this journey so far, there has been guidance, be that from other people, from books, from other speakers. What are maybe one or two of the things that have been most impactful for you from other people, which have really helped shape or give you the confidence to do what you're doing? I think for me is really breaking down, unlearning everything I've ever been taught. For example, one of the things that really shifted my mindset on money and wealth was that, this whole notion, when you become an entrepreneur, there's this unspoken rule of making 100 grand, when you make your first 100 grand in business, right? And I remember Bob Proctor saying one day, 'Who told you you need to take an entire 12 months to make 100 grand?' And I was like, wait a minute, what? It never occurred to me that I could actually make my yearly salary in one month or in one week, or even in one day or in five minutes. And so, for me, it's really collapsing all of the false beliefs that we've been actually programmed to believe. So, I would say definitely for me it's been that. It's been coaching. It's also been thanks to being on a spiritual path in terms of just opening up to a bigger sense of life, meaning of having a purpose outside of me, me, me, me, me. Because I can tell you, I was raised to be quite selfish as an only child. And so, when you start stepping into what you're doing with your podcast, and what I'm doing on the stage, that impacts other people. And so, for me, I'm very much into mind, body, soul. I do a lot of breathwork, box breathing, and just the saunas and things like that. Because if you don't have your health together, if your health isn't a priority, you can't serve other people. So, definitely those couple of practices, yeah. And dismantling all the paradigms of what you believe in terms of what your capabilities are, what you can actually have. And where would you suggest that someone starts? Because this all sounds really big. Dismantling all these beliefs and building things up again from the ground up. What's one thing that someone, immediately after they listen to this podcast episode, can do? I would say journaling. Journaling for me is a huge, huge practice. There's a book by Julia Cameron called The Artist's Way, and one of the practises in there is a practise called the Morning Pages that I've been doing for over a decade. And basically, essentially what it is, when you wake up in the morning, the first thing you should do is actually grab a journal, and you just write three pages in the journal, unscripted. You don't scratch anything out, and you just write what your thoughts are. And so, I have been doing, like I said, for well over a decade. And for me, it's just brought through so many foresight or insights into me. And so, you just begin to hear your own voice, because I think the problem is that, besides our programming of the family, of the systems, and society, things like that, we're so overstimulated by the social media, all the gadgets, and technology. It's like we're not hearing our true voice. And so, when you actually start to write on a daily, consistent basis, you begin to hear the whispers of your heart that are actually there to guide you. So, you're not completely creating a whole forklift to change your life or creating some crisis for yourself, but really kind of say, oh, okay, my path really is to write a book about this, write a book about that. And then, those pieces begin to fall into your life, really quite effortlessly. And that's what's happened to me. And so, I think we're so used to, especially as attorneys and those of us in a regulated profession, because we're rewarded with that, with degrees and license, things like that, we just do things by brute force. It's like, no, there's another way. And that other way comes from when you're following the path of your heart. Which for a lawyer or for a medical doctor is like, wait, what are you talking about? Like, you know, I'm supposed to be in court tomorrow, I'm supposed to have surgery. So, I get it, I get it. Wani, I've loved this exploration of your story and your journey. If someone wants to find you, find out more about your speaking, find out more about your legal practise, where would you like them to go? I'm on all the socials. I'm Wani Manley, that's my website, but Instagram is the lovely Wani, so it's probably easier. But I'm on the socials, so website, Facebook, LinkedIn. I always say to people I'm Googleable, and if you Google me, I'm all over the place. You'll just see there's so much about me out there, and so there's as many ways to connect with me. But come into my Facebook, you're going to talk about legal. LinkedIn and Instagram is about speaking, but there's a place for everyone. I love connecting with everyone. Links, as always, in the show notes. Wani, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. Thank you to your audience. Okay, hope you enjoyed that conversation with Wani Iris Manly. Leaving aside the whole selling up everything and moving to Paris, one thing that surprised me about the conversation was when Wani described the job with the Miami firm as a bait-and-switch, but that that was a good thing. She didn't feel like she'd got the job promised, but when she raised it with her line manager, she got a pretty credible explanation for why that was and what the manager was trying to teach her and train her to do. Now, that's not to say that you always have to accept the situation in which you're put, but it is worth reflecting what you can learn from it. And it's quite reassuring to speak to someone who didn't at all times have a complete, fully thought-through plan for what was going to happen. There was that element of letting go, trusting that it was going to turn out all right, that the path forward would present itself. It's that interesting line between just drifting without any plan to take action and being flexible as things come up and present themselves. And even if you do have some very fixed, clear goals that you're focusing on, it's worth allowing yourself a bit of grace just to take your head up, look around, and just see what else is out there. Maybe allow yourself a little bit of time to explore other things. The show notes on the website include links to the resources that Wani mentioned, and there's a full transcript of the conversation if you want to go back, if there's anything that you missed. And if you're curious that there might be some kind of change you can make in your life or in your career, but you're not sure what that could be or how extreme it could be, then hit me up for an introductory conversation. A lot of the work I do in my one-to-one coaching is to help people get clear on what it is that they want to do, what action they can take next. If that sounds like it might be useful to you, go to changeworklife.com/coaching, that's changeworklife.com/coaching, and there's a link there where you can book a conversation with me. In two weeks' time, we've got a really interesting story. It's with someone who, if you looked at him from the outside, nothing that much seems to have changed. But when you talk about the inner work that he's been doing, wow, we get really deep. So, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast so you don't miss that one, and I can't wait to see you in two weeks' time. Cheers, bye.