WS1864 - Paul Shannon - A Real Estate Investor's Path to Fund of Funds

Discover the transformative journey from full-time employment to thriving in passive real estate investing with Paul Shannon, the mastermind behind InvestWise Collective. In this engaging conversation, Paul unveils the nuances of his shift from an active investor to the visionary founder of a fund strategically tailored for venturing into lucrative passive real estate opportunities. Gain insights from Paul's expertise as he underscores the significance of cash flow in today's dynamic market, revealing how passive investing seamlessly integrates into his overall investment strategy.

Delve into the complexities of rescue capital and preferred equity in real estate investment as Paul and I explore current market conditions and the advantageous prospects available to astute investors. Our discussion extends to the pivotal role of networking and the collaborative synergy with trusted operators in the field. We shine a spotlight on the concept of a fund of funds, dissecting its purpose, optimal timing, and the mutual benefits it brings to limited partners and sponsors.

Concluding our dialogue, we scrutinize the architecture of the InvestWise Collective fund. Paul unveils the fund's risk-mitigation strategies across various levels, emphasizing a robust risk-adjusted yield. Stay informed and connected by exploring multiple avenues to engage with Paul, from joining the mailing list and accessing exclusive deals to scheduling personalized one-on-one calls, all conveniently available on their user-friendly website, www.investwisecollective.com. Tune in to this riveting conversation on real estate investing, and be sure to show your support by liking, subscribing, and sharing the Real Estate Syndication Show!

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Transcript

00:05 -Jim Pfeifer (Host)
Welcome to your daily real estate syndication show. I'm your host,  Jim Pfeifer, and today our guest is Paul Shannon from InvestWise Collective. Paul has been a full-time active investor since 2019, acquiring over 200 residential units. He is also an experienced limited partner, investing in over 1,500 multifamily units across the country.

00:26
In addition to multifamily, Paul has invested as an LP in triple net leases, industrial preferred equity notes, ATMs, mixed-use development and private equity. These experiences have led to the formation of InvestWise Collective, a customizable fund aimed at helping investors diversify out of traditional markets into passive real estate opportunities. In our conversation today, Paul and I talk about his decision to ditch his W-2, why it's important to have deals that cash flow in this market, how passive investing complements his active investing strategy, why now might be a good opportunity to move down in the capital stack, and he shares reasons why now could be both a great time and a difficult time to invest, and we talk about the benefits of investing in the fund of fund model. Paul Shannon, welcome to the show and let's start out with who you are and how did you get to where you are today.

01:19 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Thanks for having me on the show, Jim, excited to be here today. Yeah, so my journey probably started like a lot of others. I was in a corporate career. I was selling medical devices, capital equipment and operating rooms and was doing a lot of traveling.

01:33
Eventually, as our family started to grow, my values didn't really align with my interests and where I wanted to be spending my time. I felt like I was out of control as far as how my time was allocated. Pretty much everybody else was making the decision as to where I was supposed to be and when. So I wanted to kind of change that, and I had had some success in investing in single family homes and decided that it was enough, although it certainly wasn't going to replace my active income at that time by any means. But it was the time to really take a chance on myself and there was sort of a mindset shift that occurred where it felt like the biggest risk I could take was not taking a chance on myself and just waiting another decade and being too old to really do anything at that point. So, with the support of my wife, I took the plunge and dove into real estate full time. To kind of shorten the story a little bit. I went from single family to small multifamily, was doing flips and using the birth strategy to kind of recycle capital, worked my way into larger assets and got into what I call midsize multifamily, did some heavy lifts and deep value add 4050 unit properties, really enjoyed doing that and was looking to scale bigger. But then we hit end of 2021, beginning of 2022. And I've been wrong about investing theses in the past many times. But in this particular case, looking back in hindsight, it was kind of a blessing that we didn't scale at that time.

02:55
I believe at that time was that interest rates at zero or the federal funds rate at zero, I should say borrowing rates were in the three's 4% range and inflation was at 9% at that period of time. Drone Powell had been saying for the last year at that time that inflation was transitory. But it started to kind of backtrack on that, that narrative, and it looked like it was more structural. So to me it looked like rates were going to go up pretty quickly. The barring costs are going to go up. The cost of capital is going to go up. That was going to put downward pressure on what buyers were willing to or able to pay for a property.

03:29
I mean, although cap rates aren't, you know, 100% correlated interest rates, they are, they are heavily tied to them, so felt as though there could be some cap rate expansion and certainly felt like that was plausible in some of the markets that you saw. You know two handles and three handles and during that time period. So we underwrote a lot of deals and we ended up passing on pretty much all of them. The ones that we did make offers on, we got blown out of the water and it was disappointing for a while, but we're still finding good opportunities and other asset classes and investing passively as a passive investor. And that kind of brings us up to today where I'm more on the capital side now and working with a couple partners with invest wise collective to run a fund, a fund, so we're investing as LPs and other other sponsors deals.

04:13 - Jim Pfeifer (Host)
Yeah, and I want to get into that. But first I you know this, you have incredible discipline right because you quit your job, right so you no longer have a W2, and you want to dive into real estate and you do and you have some success. And then you notice that the market, it makes you nervous and you're not wanting to kind of commit to the deals like like you did before. So how did you have the, the courage of your convictions right to to look at that and say I just quit my job to be a real estate syndicator, right to buy multifamily, but I'm not going to buy any multifamily because the market just won't support it, where I think a lot of people would be like I got to buy something, I just quit my job. So how, how did you have the convert, the courage to stay the course?

04:58 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Good question. It wasn't easy, of course, because you have this sort of desire to grow and scale and take that business to the next level. I think a couple things, like coming into real estate. I had worked till you know it's 37 years old when I left my W2 job and been diligent about saving so had some reserves in stone, so that certainly helps where I didn't necessarily need the immediate income to pay for day to day expenses, so I had some time horizon there.

05:22
As far as the ability to wait things out, with COVID occurring too obviously a black swan event and nobody really saw that coming unpredictable. What was even more unpredictable was how it affected asset class inflation, with prices going up in pretty much everything that you could imagine. So real estate was no different. When you were borrowing at low rates and then all of a sudden rents took off, these assets became worth a lot more and there were a lot of buyers that were hungry for that stuff. So got some tailwinds there and made some decent profits in 2020 and 2021.

05:53
But then just kind of looking back at history and where things are, kind of my thesis of inflation is out of control and rates are gonna have to go up, but it really was more. I should say it was less technical than that. It was more that I had lived through 2008 and I'd lived through 2001,. Both the great financial crisis and the tech bubble, and I had seen how bubbles form and people get overzealous about certain things and they feel like the party's never gonna end, and a lot of times that's the time when you should be kind of preparing to play defense and backing off a little bit. So it was a little anecdotal in that sense.

06:28
There was some history to look back on. There was some things going on in the market that made me pause a little bit, but it was intuition a little bit too from past experience and just decided this isn't necessarily the right time Now. The other side of the coin is you really should plow in and take more risks when things look bleak and they're at their worst. I don't think we're there yet today. Maybe we never will be there. It's very, very difficult to take action when everybody's sort of scared and running for the sidelines. So in that particular case was right and thankful for it. I think that the underlying factor is I never wanted to go back to W2 work and I knew that I needed to protect what I had gained, so I was less willing to take on big risk at that point.

07:11 -  Jim Pfeifer (Host)
Yeah, that makes sense. So where's the market today for multifamily and how does that look relative to maybe some other asset classes?

07:19 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Multifamily- is correcting, like a lot of commercial real estate is. I think asset prices across the country are probably down 10 to 15% from their peak around the beginning of 2022. There's still somewhat of a gap in the bid and the ask spread, meaning what buyers are willing to pay to transact and what sellers are going to let go of properties for. So sellers still have the expectation that maybe last year's pricing is today's reality and in a lot of cases it's not. So cap rates have expanded a little bit. We've got a lot of deliveries come into market as a nation and that's obviously market specific. But many of the hot growth markets that were the bellwethers of the 2021 boom Dallas, phoenix, a lot of Florida, Atlanta these markets have a lot of deliveries come into market. So when you've got new inventory coming online but you've also got rents that have sort of flattened out or, in some cases, are declining in certain areas, operators are having to offer them for these new deliveries and that's putting pressure on existing inventory. So all these dynamics, it's very complicated but I feel as though there could still be some correcting to do with a little bit less or a little bit more price correction, but the goal is never to really time the market. It's just to get in at a good basis to hopefully have cash flow going in on day one. And that's where people really got in trouble is, in 2020 and 2021, taking out floating rate. That, you know, basing future projections on very aggressive assumptions that we're seeing today aren't coming true. So they're not hitting their pro form and that operating income. But at the same time they've got interest payments that are now way more than they anticipated and hopefully they have rate caps. Maybe they don't, but they're having to budget for future rate caps. You're having to figure out how they're gonna get out of this bridge financing and into permanent debt. So there is some rescue capital that's come into the multi-family. Now You're seeing a prep funds pop up all over the place. You're seeing patient capital kind of waiting for more distress. I think that's gonna happen sort of in closed doors or in back alleys. There's not gonna be a lot of that hitting the retail investor, but there's definitely, you know, gonna be more of it in 2024. So we'll look for some more fireworks.

09:35
Other asset classes you know every asset class has a different story. Right Office has obviously got some significant problems with that coming due here in the next few years where you know the work from home kind of narrative and storyline is still strong and those assets are struggling with occupancy and reduced NOIs. So they're gonna have some repurposing potentially and some pain to go through as sort of society evolves. But there are still good deals out there.

10:05
I mean, I'm not gonna go through every single asset class and give you my thesis on each, but what I will say is that there are always good deals in every market when it comes to equity deals and it's just a matter of uncovering them and really finding the operators that have that unfair advantage, that have dealt with multiple market cycles, that understand how to protect the downside, that don't get too ambitious with their projections and have realistic proformas and kind of have multiple exit strategies. And really what it boils down to is having an unfair advantage in their market to have relationships with brokers, with property management. They see deals before the general public does and they're able to work through things and get deals done that others couldn't do. So that's the kind of partners that we look to team up with.

10:49 -  Jim Pfeifer (Host)
And so you've chosen I think you actively chose to invest both passively and actively, right? So why did you choose to do passive as well as active? And then, how do you find those operators that you're just talking about?

11:05 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Why did I choose to do both? I think diversification in the portfolio is extremely important, whether we're talking about stocks and bonds or real estate, both actively and passively. So my core focus from an active investor with my Red Hawk real estate businesses is Indianapolis and Evansville, Indiana, and we buy single family and multi-family. We're hyper-local. So when the strategy or when that asset class isn't working out, I wanted to have other options for where I could grow my capital.

11:36
Even when it was working out, I wanted to diversify away from the concentration, both geographically as well as the concentration away from myself as an operator. So I looked to get into different asset classes in different markets, like Indianapolis has historically been a cash flow market and in 2021, Texas, Florida are blowing up. So I wanted to be involved in more of the appreciation on the upside with operators that knew those markets. So I invested there in multi-family as well as a bunch of other assets. And then I wanted asset class diversification as well. So I've invested in industrial flex space, ATM machines first and second position, no notes mixed use, development, self-storage, a host of others. So just getting away from multi-family felt like there was other opportunities to grow capital and appreciate some of the success right on the coattails of other operators that had good success in those asset classes.

12:32 -  Jim Pfeifer (Host)
OK, so you're investing in multiple asset classes and now the market has changed considerably in all of those asset classes, as you mentioned. So is this a good time? Or why is this a good time to invest? You mentioned that when everyone's nervous, that's time to start allocating capital or, on the other side is, why is it maybe not a good time to invest? Can you talk about where we are in the market and for those of us who want to continue allocating capital, should we be doing that?

13:00 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
I think you should always be investing. It doesn't mean that you should always be married to one thesis and doing the same thing repetitively for a 40-year time span. It doesn't mean you should be timing the market either. It means that you should be opportunistic. So today what we're finding as far as good risk-adjusted yields is stuff that's lower in the capital stack. In debt, for example, you can get equity-like yields and have semi-liquidity where you can redeem your position out from the debt fund, for example, within a year period lockup typically and you can earn returns that are well above what you could earn in that space a couple of years ago, without taking the additional risks that common equity has.

13:37
We mentioned rescue capital before, or maybe when it comes to like preff equity. Preff equity is coming in to save some of these deals that still have cash flow but need some additional equity injected into them. Or it could be just a deal that's getting bought on an attractive basis because that sponsors debt service coverage restrained. They're only able to originate alone at 55% to 65% loan to value, so a preff lay will come in and their last dollar of exposure is at 75% loan to cost. So that means the property could decline in value by 25% and your investment dollars will still be protected if you're in that position. So really find that to be an attractive play right now, whether it's debt, mezzanine debt, second position or preff, but there's good common equity deals out there as well. We really like the idea behind neighborhood retail strip centers. You can buy neighborhood strip centers in the ACAP range today and that could be a deferred maintenance type of deal that maybe has a couple vacancies where, if you can come in or the operator that we invest with comes in and they can fill those vacancies, they can update the signage, redo the parking lot, make that more of an attractive center again. Yield on costs. What that actually will produce is more like a 12% 13%, which is well above where the market cap rate is for a retail strip center today. So we feel like there's good opportunity there.

15:00
We really like the thesis behind flex industrial space. Think of the franchisee owner that maybe needs a small office on the front facing part of the building but then has a larger, maybe 2,000, 2,500 square foot bay in the back for all their overhead and inventory. They don't want to use their basement or their garage. So there's really nothing available to lease in my market and many other markets around the country. So when there's low supply and high demand, that's pricing power there.

15:24
So there are good opportunities out there. It's just a matter of being able to find them. And that starts with networking. Really, I think the community that you have at left field investors is a fantastic place to begin really, because you get a bunch of past investors coming together, sharing their stories, sharing the investments that they've made and the experiences they've had with those investments go to and bad, and you can kind of collectively come together to find who those good operators are.

15:50
So why is it not a good time to invest? Because we don't know what's going to happen in the future. So it's just it pays to play defense. I think we've seen sort of peak interest rates. That's not a guarantee. Of course, Inflation could rear its ugly head and kind of have a double top like it did in the 70s, but I don't think that's necessarily going to happen.

16:10
So if you can buy on an attractive basis today, meaning that you can cash flow today and then you can maybe refinance in two or three years, you could be in a really good position. I wouldn't be buying things today that don't cash flow and then be hoping that interest rates fall, because hope is not really a good investment strategy. But, like I said, even if you are buying real estate and there's a decline of, let's say, 10% over the next year or so, typically these deals today are getting structured for a little bit longer holds than they have been over the last couple of years. Maybe it's five or seven years instead of three. So you've got a time horizon where you can kind of wait out that decline and see things kind of come back. So I do think it's an okay time to invest. I just think you have to be selective in what you do and I think you want to be riding with operators that have had some history as far as their ability to navigate some choppy waters, maybe through a cycle or two.

17:06 -  Jim Pfeifer (Host)
So I want to transition a little bit and talk about one of the weirdest terms, I think, in our industry the fund of funds. I never understood why they called a fund of funds, but that's the kind of model that you're doing now with a little twist. But can we start out with? What is a fund of funds? What does it mean and what does it do for LP investors?

17:28 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Sure. So we take a position as a limited partner, as a fund of funds and other sponsors deals. So if a sponsor needs capital for their their deal to close let's say it's a $10 million acquisition and they need roughly $5 million in equity and they're going to bring a million dollars to the table. They need to find four million more and maybe they have $2 million that they can raise from their investor base. But that still leaves them $2 million short to get to the table. So they will reach out to other capital raisers, fund managers, and they'll look for equity.

18:03
So it could be that it's a co-GP, like a co-general partner that comes in and brings some of their investors in. That's a little bit of a different relationship. In our case we are a limited partner, we take a limited partner position. Our capital is, the liability is limited to the capital that we have in the deal. But it's a structure essentially where it's an exemption within the SEC rules and regulations, where we're able to operate not as registered investment advisors but as fund managers that allocate capital and we do so compliantly, and we do so by taking a limited partner position. But we're inherently investing in other deals or other sponsors deals and that could be in the form of a single asset, like a single purpose vehicle, or it could be a fund like ours investing in another fund that has multiple assets.

18:54 -  Jim Pfeifer(Host)
And why is now? This is relatively new that you guys just started this, so why is this the time to start a fund like this?

19:02 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
I think it's a really opportunistic time to be in the space, more so than my time in real estate over the last five or six years and the reason being is because we're filling a void on both sides of the table. If you think about limited partners, many of them have gotten into the game relatively recently, in the last couple of years, maybe at the wrong time in the market cycle, right. So they're feeling some of the pain of pause distributions or capital calls, or they're awaiting a phone call where maybe their equity has been diluted entirely and not a very strong outcome, but they still believe in the passive income and the idea behind real estate syndication and the advantages that it has. So our goal is to be since we're full time in this business and have experience in underwriting and managing property and operating property and investing passively sort of a filter, if you will. We're certainly not registered investment advisors, but we are vetting these deals as we were investing them actively ourselves and we are putting money in to each one of these deals our personal funds that we invest in. So we want to make pretty sure that we're confident that the deal is going to have a good outcome and we want to make sure that we're able to provide value to our limited partners by giving them sort of that vetting approach and saying, hey, listen, we're vetting these deals, we're investing our own capital in these deals. Here's a structure in the fund of funds that you can invest alongside us and if there's value there, please join our fund. Essentially, I mean, a lot of these people are busy professionals or doctors, lawyers, their business folks that have full time jobs that are too busy to spend the time it takes to really get past what's in the offering memorandum.

20:43
If you just look at that, you can be sold on pretty much every deal, but you really have to dissect the deal. You have to get into the PPM, the operating agreement. What's? What are the inputs that lead to the outputs that are on the OM? Are they realistic? What's the operator's track record? Are they on the SEC blacklist? Are they, you know? Have they been a convicted felon? Who knows them? Can you find people that have vouched for them and invested with them before that know, like and trust them? So that takes a lot of time.

21:11
So we can bring that to the table and offer that to our LPs Now GPs. They need Capital. Today they're still closing deals. There are still decent deals out there and it's gotten a lot harder to raise capital because the sentiment in the LP community is down because of the aforementioned kind of phenomenon that's going on right now. So maybe before they had to make 100 calls to raise $5 million, now they've got to make 300 calls.

21:36
So if we can come in and we can write a million dollar check instead of them having to go to 300 retail investors and raise $25,000, $50,000 a piece, we're offering a really solid value ad. We're streamlining their capital source, we're reducing their overhead by doing so and through that value that we bring, we're able to negotiate better terms and get maybe a better promote split or a better preferred return or something else. And then back to the LP's. We can actually pass along a portion of those enhanced terms and give them better deal access or better deal economics that they would get if they had directly invested with the sponsor. They're pre vetted Ultimately within our fund. What makes us a little bit different is that the LP can still choose whether they want to participate in that deal, even though we are going to. So that makes us a little different, but that's the value on both sides of the table and we feel like today more than ever there's kind of a synergy there that we can really deliver on both sides and make it a win-win.

22:36 - Jim Pfeifer (Host)
Can you talk a little bit more about you mentioned? You guys are different and you can choose at the deal level which deal you want to be in and which you don't while you're in this fund of funds. Can you talk about how that's different than you see normally? Sure, yeah.

22:52 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
So, like in a typical fund, it might be a blind pool or semi-blind pool style where, let's say, you're the sponsor and your thesis is that multifamily and Sunbelt markets are hot and we're going to focus on 100 unit plus garden style communities, pitched roofs, whatever it is Right. You've got a very tight buy box, if you will, and me, as the past investor, I believe in that buy box, I believe in you as the operator and I wire you $100,000, let's say. Well, then at that point you've got carte blanche to go out and buy whatever it is that you see fit, whatever fits that criteria loosely, and I sit back and I hope that the assets that you collect are ones that I like and I'm going to be confident in your abilities to get it done. So that's kind of a semi-blind pool fund in that example, whereas in our fund we're sort of asset class agnostics, so we're sort of anti-neesh. We're just looking for strong risk, adjusted yield, yield on costs above the market cap rate and de-risk positions, if you will. So we're not very tight as far as our buy box, but in return we give the LP investors and our fund the ability to pick and choose which deals they get involved in.

24:07
So, for example, let's say, in two years we have 10 deals within InvestWise Collective and you're a fund participant and you've liked six out of the 10.

24:17
You've opted out of the other four. Maybe you're a cash flow investor and we came with a few development deals and you don't want to participate in those deals, so you don't have to. So at the end of the year, all your tax reporting, all the reporting that we give you during the year itself, will be focused on just the six assets that you're involved in. We give you the LP investor kind of that fourth management position. I have two partners, so there's three of us, and all three of us have to agree and invest our own capital in each deal that we commit to. That's kind of our ownership and our co-investment. But then you, as the individual limited partner, have that fourth manager seat and can say you know what, guys, I'm going to sit this one out. I'm not going to do it. So that's very unique for a fund structure and one that I think gives a lot of flexibility for the LPs.

25:03 -  Jim Pfeifer(Host)
Yeah, that certainly does, because you can, as you said, pick and choose. And really what you're doing is you're finding some experienced LP investors right, the fund managers and you're just tagging along and saying, hey, when you find a deal that I like, I'll jump in and if I don't like it I'll stay out. So it's very interesting how you're doing it a little bit differently. Can you talk about the risk, right, Because you talked about how you're mitigating macro, sponsor and deal level risk. Can you talk about what that means and how you're doing that for this fund?

25:33 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Yeah. So that's a real can of worms, I think. From a macro standpoint, as I mentioned before, we're sort of moving down the capital stack a little bit today where we can earn really high equity like returns and provide sort of an asymmetric risk profile for investors where they get higher returns but without the risk sort of commensurately rising with those returns. We always look for that and it's not common Sponsor level risk. A lot of times we're looking at deals from sponsors that we've already invested within the past, or we know other people within our community or our investor base that invested with them, or we know somebody else that's a friend who's in the space that has referred us to the sponsor because of their track record. So there's a lot of ties. That's a smaller world than I think a lot of people think and we're sourcing a lot of opportunities from that way. We're certainly not, you know, taking. I'm active on LinkedIn quite a bit and a lot of people reach out and say, hey, would you want to look at this deal? I'll look at it. But this is going to be the start of our relationship, which is going to be probably a year of communication before we do anything together. So I hope you're ready for that. And then at the deal level, you know it's validating a lot of inputs.

26:50
You know, usually when I look at a spreadsheet I can tell them the first five minutes if this sponsor has a similar mindset on underwriting or the market as I do. You know how does their rent growth assumptions look, what's their exit cap rate. You know what kind of loan are they using. You know the lender is the biggest capital position in a deal. So what they have as far as terms really matters. Do they have a preferred equity layer in there?

27:19
If I'm investing in common equity, that may not be the best thing. You know these types of scenarios. And then if it passes the initial sniff test, that's kind of going into that specific market and looking at. You know what are the competitive units that are out there close to this asset and what are they charging on a price per square foot. What are they getting for rent from? You know a unit and kind of comparing that to what the reality is in the spreadsheet and the underwriting and seeing if it's real. It takes quite a bit of work. We look at background checks and everything else too and make sure that everything's clean there. Our due diligence is pretty buttoned up. I would say.

28:00 - Jim Pfeifer (Host)
And I know you mentioned this a little bit, but I just want to come back to it because I think one of the most unique things about the structure you have is that as an LP, I can be part of the fund, but I get to pick and choose what investments I go into. It's not a blind fund, so I don't have to say, Paul, what are all the asset classes you're going to put in here. But what assets are you guys looking at and what have you maybe said no to and what are you hoping to say yes to? Just kind of talk a little bit about the kind of stuff that you guys are going after.

28:33 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Sure. So our first deal was a debt fund because lenders have gotten a little skittish with some of the loans and the maturities that are coming next year and the loans that are started to kind of go sideways a little bit. There's been a pullback in the marketplace so there's less capital available and when there's less supply and there's still a lot of demand from borrowers, that creates opportunity. So private credit right now is very, very popular and I think there's a lot of good reasons for it as well. So our first deal was a debt fund. That was sort of special situation borrowers with time sensitive needs because there's low supply and high demand. The loans that were originated could be done so at a high interest rate etc. Etc. So we really liked that opportunity. And then this last month we actually just sent out our newsletter today.

29:22
We looked at probably 15 deals seriously and we get a lot more deal flow that we pass on pretty quickly. But we looked at an industrial property in Chicago, a retail strip center in Kansas City, a flex industrial fund that was doing conversions from office space and making the footprint of the building more flex. We looked at an amusement park, believe it or not, more of a private equity play. We looked at a land entitlement play where the developer was buying the land and then just getting the entitlements maybe doing horizontal construction, maybe not and then selling it off to a builder.

30:04
So a lot of deal variety, which is kind of cool. But with that comes sort of a inefficient underwriting approach, because you have to look at each deal differently. It's not like, hey, this is multifamily, this is what it is, we know this, we see this every day, so there's a little bit of a challenge there. But it's nice to see all these different opportunities and some of these guys have been. You know, these sponsors have been doing it for a long, long time. So you know strong track records, strong pedigree.

30:35 -  Jim Pfeifer (Host)
That's great. So this has been a fascinating conversation. Really appreciate you being on the show. If listeners are interested in learning more about what you do, what's the best way to connect with you and also to learn about InvestWise Collective?

30:47 - Paul Shannon (Guest)
Thanks, Jim. It's been awesome being here. We appreciate the time. The best way today to get in touch with me is https://www.investwisecollective.com/. You can join our mailing list there and see our deal flow. You can sign up to have a phone call and we'll get on a call together and then just stay in touch with me on LinkedIn too. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn too.

31:07 -  Jim Pfeifer (Host)
Excellent. Well, thank you, Paul. We'll put all that in the show notes and thanks for being on the show. Thanks, Jim. Thank you for listening to the Real Estate Syndication Show. It has been a pleasure to be the guest host today. If you'd like more information about left field investors and how we educate limited partners, provide a network and give access to deal flow, please visit Left Field Investors. Reach out to me directly at Jim at Left Field Investors. I hope you learned a lot from the show today. Please don't forget to like and subscribe and share the Real Estate Syndication Show with your friends so they can also build wealth and real estate. You can also go to lifebridgecapital.com and start investing today.