WS1877 Do This to Prepare For Coming Opportunities | Kevin Dean

Ever wondered what it truly takes to navigate the unpredictable realm of real estate successfully? Join us as Kevin Dean, the insightful founder of Rockbridge Investment Group, unveils the secrets to thriving in the dynamic real estate market with over 2600 transactions worth of wisdom. What strategies can prepare you for the uncertainties that lie ahead in the world of real estate?

In this engaging conversation, Kevin takes us on a journey through the tactics employed by accomplished real estate operators to proactively ready themselves for an unpredictable future. From segmenting existing portfolios to positioning for upcoming opportunities, Kevin shares the essential insights derived from his extensive experience.

As the discussion unfolds, delve into the intricacies of the value-add strategy in real estate acquisitions and the associated risks. Kevin sheds light on understanding investor sentiment and the art of meeting new investors, emphasizing critical metrics crucial in the real estate syndication industry.

This episode a must-listen for every real estate enthusiast eager to navigate the unpredictable realm of real estate syndication. Tune in and discover the expertise needed to not just survive but thrive in the ever-changing world of real estate.

Elevate your real estate game by connecting with Kevin Dean, on LinkedIn. Stay abreast of industry insights and opportunities while tapping into Kevin's wealth of knowledge. For an even deeper dive into the world of real estate, visit his website at https://www.rockbridgeinv.com/ , where exclusive content and valuable resources await.

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Transcript

00:00 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
successful operators and we hope to put ourselves in that category over the next couple years here are really gonna have to segment in their mind. You know your existing portfolio and then also the opportunity you have in front of you. I think it's really easy to sit there and say, hey, when prices come down, we're gonna jump in right. When you got a portfolio that you know maybe has some floating right then on, maybe the business plan isn't going as well as you thought it would. It's a lot more difficult to actually jump in when you see opportunity. That is clear. 

00:38 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Exactly what operators should be doing to prepare for the opportunities that are coming is what we're gonna talk about today on the daily real estate syndication show. I'm your host, Whitney Sewell. Our guest today is Kevin Dean is a founder of a rock bridge investment group 2600 plus doors. Quarter million In real estate transactions. Previous experience in charter financial analyst program. Previous experience on pricing desk at Fannie Mae, involved in over half a billion plus an agency debt transactions I mean it's included all kinds of different types of debt that he's been a part of you know in previous careers experience structuring 400 million plus in multifamily agency debt and some great skills, especially right now when we're looking at multifamily or any kind of commercial real estate. 

01:27
I had a great conversation. Know you're gonna learn a lot from Kevin says we talked through me and what you are, your operator, if you're a passive investor, what they should be doing to prepare their current portfolio ultimately so they're prepared for new opportunities that are going to be coming. Kevin, welcome to the show. Honored to have you on and you and I got to meet a little while back and I'm grateful for that. If you reach out and you were in my area to welcome the guests to do the same, or the listeners in any guest. But, Kevin, welcome to the show. Looking forward to diving in honored to have you. 

02:01 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Super excited to be here with me and, yeah, that was a great time getting together. It's it's such a small world in the multifamily real estate industry so we both know a lot of the same people. So it was great to meet you back then. Excited to be talking with you again today. 

02:13 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Yeah, you as well. So thanks again. Well, you know with your experience, Kevin. You know, even at Fannie Mae and you know, 2600 doors now, quarter million Real estate transactions. You know I'm looking forward to diving into this conversation day because I know so many of the listeners it's just questions all the time about you know what to do, right, what's going to happen. Everybody wants to know. I think that's the most popular clickbait right on YouTube and everywhere else is the houses that are on fire, and you know people saying the end of the world is coming, all this stuff right and and so you know I'm looking forward to just thinking through this today with you. Like I said, with your experience, I would love to know your thoughts on and what successful right real estate operators are going to be doing over the next six to twelve months. And it's just, you know, dialoguing a little bit on on that thought and what you see happening. 

03:05 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Absolutely. And yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, over here at Rockbridge we're always just kind of speculating and talking about what we think the economy is going to do and where we can position ourselves best. So of course, we always have a view of what we think is going to happen and you know how do we position ourselves properly. But the truth is we have no idea. You know there's lots of conversations about interest rates and cap rates and occupancy and new supply coming in and you know, while we can certainly look at a ton of data, if we've learned anything over the last few years, it's that we are terrible at projecting where interest rates are going to go. So don't even try so. With that said, in terms of you know, what are successful real estate operators going to do the next couple years? You know, in our opinion, we think that successful operators and we hope to put ourselves in that category over the next couple years here are really going to have to segment in their mind. You know your existing portfolio and then also the opportunity you have in front of you. 

04:03
I think it's really easy to sit there and say, hey, when prices come down, we're going to jump in, right, but when you've got a portfolio that you know maybe has some floating rate debt on, maybe the business plan isn't going as well as you thought it would. 

04:17
It's a lot more difficult to actually jump in when you see opportunity. 

04:23
That is clear. So in my mind, you know, what we're trying to do is one our existing portfolio, any assets that are either not operating exactly where they need to be, you know any pending debt maturities that need to be handled. We're doing everything that we possibly can to address any potential issues that are going to surface in the next, you know, 12 to 36 months, and that is, you know, we're aggressively going after getting debt sized every single month when we get refresh financials, making sure we're staying on top of asset management and construction management. You know, making sure we're still spending the time doing the relationship building with our onsite team. And then, on the flip side, we're also cognizant of the fact that there's a lot of people who are struggling on the operation side and that is going to present some opportunities and it already is, to be honest with you. So that's kind of what we think you know successful operators will do in the next couple years is really just segment existing portfolio from new, new opportunities and make sure you're aggressive on both sides. 

05:22 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Love that. I think it's very wise, in a good thought process right now to think through and I'm sure most operators are thinking through their current portfolio, right, but but they're probably not making the connection to how you know the issues that are most likely going to come up with it, whether it's their debt or whatever it may be, how it's going to affect the new opportunities, like you said, that they won't be able to go after those new opportunities because their pants are on fire over here. 

05:49 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Right, right. 

05:50 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
That's what I mean they want. 

05:51 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, it's exactly right, and I think that comes back to one making sure that you have the right team to execute on the existing portfolio and then also on the new opportunities. So one of the things we've done over the last year, and one of the things that we're going to continue to do, is just make sure that operations are tight on our side, We've got good systems and processes, we understand who on our team is responsible for what, and just making sure that we're in a position to actually execute on great ideas, because everybody has great ideas, right. But you know, I know we're guilty of having great ideas and sitting on a meeting and discussing them, but then actually implementing them it doesn't always happen. So, yeah, I mean I'd love to kind of get into a little bit more about, you know, where we see the opportunity and how we're, you know, setting ourselves up to execute. 

06:39 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Yeah, love that thought as well. Where's the opportunity going to be and how are we setting? How are you setting yourself up to execute on that? You know and maybe before we hit that, you know I was thinking again about. 

06:49
You know you talked about segmenting current portfolio and opportunities. Talk about the team members that are, you know, having the right team right to execute on the current portfolio. Have you seen that? You know now that maybe people aren't doing as many deals right now? I've heard and we're guilty of this as well but you know you know using maybe the team resources we have right now on the acquisition side to help us with some asset management Right as well. I've been in the thought process recently this is so timely, right, that you're talking about segmenting this. But my thought process recently is like, well, when new deals come, I need, I want them to be able to be laser focused, right, I don't want my analysts or director of acquisitions whoever to be, so you know into the asset management piece that you know we miss all these opportunities right, or their real focus. Have you seen that? Or you know how are you separating that or maybe keeping that team busy right now? 

07:42 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Yeah, so I mean, one of the things about Rockbridge is we've had to be pretty scrappy to get to where we're at. So when I started Rockbridge I had a full-time job. So in the beginning we really focused on a joint venture relationship to where, you know, we were able to take on the capacity that made sense for us to take on, and then we partnered for some of our weaknesses, right. So the good news is, you know, at least for us, we're set up in a way to where we're not bogged down in one single deal too much and we've maintained our flexibility and kind of our ability to be nimble. But at the same time, to your point, you know we have floated back and forth. 

08:24
But we float back and forth between asset management, acquisitions CFO, you know construction management every single day because we are a smaller shop and while longer term I think that we will get a little bit, you know, maybe more segmented internally, I think it's actually been a benefit for like a smaller and a growing team, because when I first started doing deals, I had no asset management experience. I knew how to put something through a model. I knew what made. You know, the underwriting model spit out a pretty 15% IRR with good cash on cash return. But I really had no idea what bad debt was or how difficult it was to actually turn a unit properly and in a timely fashion. So I do think that there is value. You know, kind of like you mentioned having maybe your acquisitions guys adding some, you know assistance on the asset management side, even if it's only temporary, because that will inform their ability to really underwrite deals, structure a business plan and know what's actually achievable. 

09:22 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Yeah, yeah, no, love that, love that. Well, I want to jump on in to you know where you mentioned, you know where's the opportunity going to be and how you're. You all are preparing right to execute, which we've talked about a little bit. Maybe it's team members, whatnot, but let's start there, sure. 

09:39 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
So over this last year, you know, we went from I think we acquired something like 13 deals in 18 months and then we had about a year with nothing done at all. But you know, in that time period of 12 to 13 months with no new acquisitions, we probably over you know that period underwrote over 500 deals and submitted well over 150 LOIs. So while we've effectively been out of the market by how we're underwriting deals, we've seen a ton and a ton of different types of deals and different markets that we're interested in. So one of the things that I've noticed is, at least for us, the straight down the fairway value ad where you're putting in $10,000 to $15,000 a door of renovations. You know you're improving the operations, you're taking it from a classic unit to a premium unit. We're running into affordability issues when we're underwriting those deals and we can't justify to ourselves doing the value ad 5.0 or 6.0 to a property that's already had it done a ton of times. So what we're seeing work and we actually have two deals under contract right now that kind of illustrate this is either One is deals that are brand new say 2020 to 2023 construction that are either coming out of lease up or they were bought out of lease up and were purchased with maybe floating rate debt and now they need to sell, but there's really not a major value add. You're essentially just buying the deal at a really good price, you're removing loss to lease, you're buying in a great market and you're just operating it as well as you possibly can. So we're finding that those deals are starting to generate one, a pretty decent year one yield and two, a good IRR, because we're buying at a good basis. 

11:26
So on that side of the acquisitions framework, we're focused more on basis. What are we paying on a dollar per square foot basis for this brand new asset and how does that compare to new construction? And then we're also just focused on lengthening our hold period a little bit longer. So it's more like a coupon clipper where, yes, it's still going to be hard work to make sure you keep it occupied, you still got to do a great job, but you're not putting in $15,000 a unit. So that's one side. On the other side, what we're seeing and we have a deal that illustrates this under contract as well is the deep, deep value add deals where you're buying it at a very low price. You're putting in 50 to 60,000 per unit. Maybe you're taking occupancy down to 10% and then you're leasing it back up. So what we're seeing is both ends of the perspective either heavy, heavy, heavy value add or no value add. But you're buying it at a great price. 

12:25 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Wow, now, I love how you laid that out. We're very focused as well on more. So the first strategy. We've talked about the second, but it's true, I think, also a lot of developers have gotten in over their head at the moment, and it is unfortunate. A lot of them are going to lose money or sell with no profit almost, or are going to have to. It's almost what you're talking about during the lease up period or right after it's been leased up. And what I love, though, after we've done a number of the deep value add deals, it sounds so nice to have more deals that are just a few years old or less. 

13:05 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Absolutely. I mean, it's not as easy as everybody makes its sound to renovate 150 units over a two or three year period and then sell it for twice as much money. That takes a lot of coordination and, honestly, what it is is it's more risk. So whenever we're looking at deals, we're always looking at it from a risk adjusted basis. But if we can take a brand new 2023 construction with no major capital needs and generate a 15 IRR with this over a 6% cash on cash in year one or we could get a value add deal where we're renovating, say, 75% of the units at 15,000 per unit and we're generating, say, an 18 IRR, I would take the 15 all day over the 18 for a couple reasons. 

13:55
One, the business execution risk is significantly reduced. Two, you can probably put better debt on it upfront. That makes more sense and reduces risk. And then, three, going back to the beginning of our conversation, when you're just looking at your team and you're not this giant publicly traded company, you only have so much capacity and you want to make sure that you have the capacity to actually provide your investors what you said you would provide them. Yes, we'll take the 25 IRR if it's a value add deal. But if we're 2%, 3% higher, we'd rather go for that brand new class, a kind of deal. 

14:30 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Yeah, I think so often we see that, say, the 18% IRR or whatever. Investors want to jump in there. But I think a lot of them, especially right now, they're filling that right. They signed up for that deal but they're not getting that anyway at the moment, right. So I agree with you completely. It's also such a stretch on management right to make that happen on deals like that, the deep, deep value adds and, I think, more management. Unfortunately, teams are not prepared for that kind of process as much as they want to think they are. We've had some hard lessons there. I mean no doubt about it. I think it depends so much on your operating on the ground, boots on the ground, to make that happen. That's also why there's so much more risk. It's so much easier to manage a brand new asset, different type of tenant, all these things. You're not vacating and doing renails, all that stuff. So it is a property management nightmare, I think, to do the deep, deep value ads. 

15:37 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Yep, absolutely. And I mean just to give one tip for something that we're doing the deal I mentioned, that is, the heavy value ad. We're taking the property down to about 10% occupancy and then we're going to be adding 155 bedrooms to the property. So taking a lot of the twos and making them threes, and then certain units that are on the basement floor we're actually going to be punching into a big utility closet and adding a fourth bedroom. So for something like that, I think the key is know thyself. 

16:07
And for us we have some construction experience, but we knew that we one we needed to partner on this deal with somebody who has actually done development before. So we've got a development partner on this deal. And then we're actually hiring a construction manager who are paying a lot of money $20,000 a month to just sit there, manage subcontractors, manage the GC, make sure things are moving along, and for us $20,000 a month is a lot for a single deal. But we worked under the construction cost because we want to make sure we're covered to where we can actually execute on that business plan. And if it's up to me or somebody else on our team who doesn't have that hands-on experience and isn't going to be able to live at the property for a year. It's not going to happen, so we're willing to pay up to a professional who's going to steer us in the right direction, make sure we avoid landmines and really make sure that this project is successful. 

17:04 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Love that. I appreciate you mentioning that, because $20,000 a month sounds like a lot right. However, that's a lot less than you're going to pay if you don't have that expertise on the team 100%. 

17:15 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
I mean I can tell you that he has already saved us well more than that in a couple months, so it's absolutely worth the spend to get the right people in who know what they're doing. 

17:26 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Yeah, speak to finding how you are going to find even the newer deals. 

17:31 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
So what we're doing is I mean, I think it goes back to what we've been doing the last five years really which is just building relationships. We have acquired 19 properties over the last five years and I think probably five of those have been direct to seller. Everything else has been through a broker. So our goal on the acquisition side is we want to provide feedback, so general pricing in terms, within 48 hours, and it may not be super, super detailed, but we want to at least let them know. 

18:01
Hey, we hear you, we see that you've brought us this opportunity, and we want to be responsive and not take that for granted. And maybe over the last year or two a lot of people are doing that. But now that there's not as many people who are really underwriting new deals, getting aggressive on the acquisition side and providing feedback, even if it's 20% below the whisper price, what we're seeing is we're starting to get more first looks at those deals. So the short answer to your question is just working with brokers, just like we always have, and we're still doing some direct to seller type of stuff where we're taking sellers out to lunch, letting them know who we are, that sort of thing, but most of our deals have come through our broker relationships. 

18:47 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
And I assume the deep value ads you all are looking for same, exactly the same. 

18:51 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Yeah, actually that deal actually came from our lender that we used on a prior deal, so he actually originated the loan. It's maturing, it actually yeah, it's basically at the end of its maturity. So he presented us this opportunity just given he knew that they were really going to have to refinance or sell and they knew that we could execute on it, so that one actually did come from our lender. 

19:15 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Wow, that's awesome. You never know, do you? It's keeping those relationships hot and connected, and yeah, you never know. So what about investor sentiment that you've noticed about maybe both of these types of strategies? 

19:29 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
So for the strategy that is more the class A, lower risk type of opportunity, I should mention the way that we segment our deals is we have two buckets. So we either say, hey, this is more of a high net worth syndication type of deal or this is more of an institutional equity type of partnership. So for deals that are more of a high net worth, what I would say lower risk and probably lower return, that's more of like our syndication type structure. And the reason we do that is most of our higher net worth investors, you know, accredited, non-accredited, they want to get some cash flow, they wanna get a decent IRR but it's a combination of wealth preservation and, you know, getting some cash flow. 

20:17
The institutional equity groups, they are experts at evaluating multifamily deals. So if we bring them what we would consider to be a higher risk deal, we know that they're getting into this, just like we are fully understanding the risk. So, for example, that deep value add deal, that's not really one I won't say never but it's one that we wouldn't typically bring to kind of our syndication investor group, even though it's a great return, just because the nuances of that deal it takes hours and hours to understand and we didn't want to, you know, basically pitch that to an investor who didn't have the time to fully vet the opportunity. So, in terms of investor sentiment, on the kind of class, a typical, you know, syndication type structure, we're definitely seeing demand and I think part of that is we haven't brought as many deals at the table in the last year and while people are definitely a little bit more risk averse than maybe they were a few years ago, you know people do have cash that they're looking to invest. 

21:17 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Yeah, now we've seen that also. So we've had less deals over the last 18 months than we've ever had. And yeah, it's like every investor calls like, oh well, when's the next deal, you know? Or it's like, well, we don't know, but we're working on it. 

21:34 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Right, and I think the key is just we all want to sleep at night, right? So there's no reason to stretch for a deal just because you have investor demand. It's a great problem to have, right, but we, you know, our goal is we want to be in this business for a really long time, so that means we need to pass on, you know, 200 deals until we find the right one. That's okay for us. 

21:53 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
That's right, completely agree. Well said, kevin, what's your best source for meeting new investors right now? 

22:00 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
I would say our best source comes from executing on our current deals, so referrals is absolutely the number one source for us. I think it's taken some time to get there. You know, we've been in business now for five years and we actually haven't sold anything. We kind of do a we have a longer term hold strategy, but we have investors that are getting, you know, in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars of cashflow every single year from our deals, and that's really the most important thing to get new investors is just doing what you say you're going to do Following up. We like to take a really personal approach, so we know all of our investors individually. We don't do much marketing. You know somebody from our team has either had a zoom call, a coffee, a lunch, a dinner with every single investor on our list and you know one. That helps solidify the relationship with those investors, but it does also lead to referrals. 

22:50 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
What's your best advice for passive investors right now? 

22:53 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Best advice for passive investors right now, I would say really get to know your sponsors. I think that's advice in any market. But I also think, if you're a brand new passive investor, I would say, if you get really excited about a deal and you have not invested in a deal before, maybe say no and look for four, five, six more before you decide to pull the trigger, because there's a lot of sponsors out there, there's a lot of different markets and types of real estate deals you can do and I think that there's going to be opportunities in the next month, there's going to be opportunities the next couple of years. But just taking the time to really understand the sponsor, understand the deal and review a good number before you pull the trigger, I think is wise. 

23:36 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
What's some of the most important metrics that you track could be personally or professionally. 

23:41 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
We're definitely big on KPIs, so we have a dashboard that we meet as a team to review every single Friday. So just a few to have it right in front of me right here. So we have various KPIs on the investor relations side, on the acquisition side, on the asset management side. So I'll just give you a couple. We track how many new deals were generated every single week. The goal is 15 new deals a week. How many deals were underwritten every single week? New deals we typically try to hit at least five a week. And then on the LOIs front, we try to submit at least two LOIs every single week. So we've got 10 other ones that I won't go through. But the point is we're definitely tracking KPIs on every division within our company. 

24:26
From the personal side, I would say the most important things to me is just consistency. So my day kind of looks the same every single day. I cannot sleep unless I get at least a workout in every single day. So it's not necessarily something I track, it's more like just brushing my teeth. Every single morning I'm waking up and I'm kind of going through the same routine and that just helps me stay sharp, like if I don't wake up and get me time out of the way before I get into meetings and start evaluating deals. I just feel like I don't make as good of decisions throughout the day. So really, consistency is just kind of the big focus for us. 

25:10 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Yeah, love that. I can relate to that in that morning routine completely. It makes such a big difference If I have to get up late for summer. Of course we've had a new baby here recently and so that's kind of through my morning routine out the window for a number of weeks and I'm just getting back on track now. She's sleeping really good now so it's like okay, no, I can finally get you know some time in the morning to get my head straight right Before kids are up and the meeting start and all that. So completely understand any habits that you're disciplined about that produce a higher return for you. 

25:44 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
Yeah, so Couple of things. I already kind of got in the morning routine so I'll work out every morning before the day starts. Luckily I have an awesome garage gym so I don't have to go far and it makes it really easy. Other thing on the kind of personal health side, I typically fast until noon every day, which enables me just to kind of stay sharp. I feel like when I eat I slow down a little bit. 

26:09
So that's one kind of habit that I stick to just about every single day and then usually, from a scheduling standpoint, I try to get all my work done really difficult work done before 2 pm and then I usually take 2 pm to like 5 or 6 just to knock out phone calls and catch up with people. So that's really where kind of the deal generation happens, the new investor conversations happen, and just trying to block off the last part of the day where you've already spent a lot of your kind of thinking and energy. I think it's a way to stay productive but also keep you from just pounding through the spreadsheets all day long. 

26:54 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
What's the number one thing that's contributed to your success? 

26:57 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
I guess I'll give you two. One would be the consistency and then two would be relationships. I think we kind of mentioned at the beginning of the call. It's just amazing how small of a world the multifamily world is and there's thousands and thousands of people who know a lot more than I do. So just really following up with people and building those relationships, seeking first to add value, has just come back tenfold and it's resulted in deals, new investors, new opportunities. So those are probably I would give you two. 

27:30
How do you like to give back? Two primary ways. First is I've been involved with a group called Young Life. It's a ministry for high school, middle school and actually college students. So I served in Young Life starting in college and I served for ten years until we actually just had our first son, so stepped back to spend more time with him, which is a ministry in itself. And then the second is I'm involved with a group called Apartment Life, which is actually a ministry that helps to really build community on apartment complexes. It's something that we've done at a few of our apartment complexes and that's a real passion of mine. 

28:11 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Love that. Appreciate you bringing up and serving in Young Life, congratulations on the new baby or son. That's incredible. And then we use Apartment Life as well, so we've really enjoyed, or it's been great, to have them out of our communities. For a number of reasons that's allowed us to pour back into tenants and ways that we never could have before. So appreciate you bringing that up. Kevin, I love your thought process that you brought us today and what operators really need to be doing now right Getting in front of the potential opportunities that are most likely going to come there. I think there are already some coming, but definitely over the next six, eight, 12 months I think there'll be more, and so I think it's so wise to segment to be able to make sure you're prepared, just like you mentioned. I appreciate you laying that out for us today. How can the listeners get in touch with you and learn more about you? 

29:03 - Kevin Dean (Guest)
So best way would just be to go to our website it's wwwrockbridgeinv as an investorcom and you can fill out a contact us form there. I'm also on LinkedIn, Kevin Dean. Those would be the two best ways to reach out. 

29:21 - Whitney Sewell (Host)
Thank you for being with us again today. I hope that you have learned a lot from the show. Don't forget to like and subscribe. I hope you're telling your friends about the real estate syndication show and how they can also build wealth in real estate. You can also go to livebridgecapitalcom and start investing today.