WS1965 How To Make Better Investing Decisions | Irwin Boris

Welcome back to the Real Estate Syndication Show!  I'm your host, Whitney Sewell.  Today, we continue our insightful conversation with real estate investment expert Irwin Boris. In part 1, Irwin shared his wisdom on due diligence and conservative deal analysis, a must-listen for any investor.

This episode dives into the current market climate and the pitfalls investors face. Irwin provides invaluable advice for both passive investors and limited partners, guiding them on what to consider before and after investing in a syndication deal.


Key takeaways for Investors:

• Common Pitfalls to Avoid: Learn about the dangers of poor property management, inexperienced sponsors, and unexpected market shifts that can derail a deal.
• Protecting Your Investment: Discover how to navigate challenges and manage expectations when your investment faces hurdles.
• Alternative Investment Options: Explore Irwin's perspective on why triple net leases might be a good fit for risk-averse investors.
• Raising Equity Through Education: Learn Irwin's relationship-building approach to raising capital, focusing on investor education over aggressive sales tactics.

To learn more or explore potential investment opportunities, reach out to Irwin at irwin@heritagecapitalgroup.net.  You can also find additional educational resources on their website.

Thanks for joining us on today's episode!  Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share The Real Estate Syndication Show with your network.  Stay tuned for more insightful discussions on building wealth through real estate investing!

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Transcript

Irwin Boris: But one of the things that I thought was very, I think, incredulous is the right term, is that in some of these newsletters that syndicators sent to their investors, they were trying to explain to investors why there's a problem, why we may lose some money, what went wrong. There was never any admission of guilt or we messed up, we didn't make an assumption for this, we should have taken a longer term interest rate cap.

Whitney Sewell: This is your daily real estate syndication show. I'm your host, Whitney. So we're back with our guest today, Erwin Boris. I hope you listened to yesterday's segment, but we are going to continue the conversation, but dive into where do investors go wrong and what's going wrong right now. And a number of things that you should consider as a passive investor or limited partner before you make that investment for you. you know, send your money to put in that deal. There's a number of questions that he highlights today that are going to help you to be better prepared. Or let's say you've already put the money in that deal, but man, you got that call where it's going sideways, right? It's, there's something happening. He's going to help you through that as well. You're going to learn a lot from Erwin today. Erwin, I'm grateful to have you back for another segment and us diving in and just gleaning from your experience and knowledge in the industry and really diving in today on where investors are going wrong in a number of aspects. And so I'm grateful again for your time. Welcome back. No, my pleasure.

Irwin Boris: Thank you for having me again, Whitney. Thank you.

Whitney Sewell: Yeah. Well, let's jump right back in. And actually, I want to remind the listeners first to go and listen to yesterday's segment. If you didn't, Erwin just brought a ton of experience and knowledge yesterday to how they're doing due diligence, and how they're being conservative, and the deals they're looking at, and why, and even got into some reserves, and the importance of reserves. So again, Erwin, let's dive right back in here. And let's jump into where investors are going wrong right now. What are you seeing? as you're reviewing lots of deals and hearing from other operators and investors and the whole industry?

Irwin Boris: No, sure. If you think about the long run that's just ended on most of the asset classes, especially apartments, coming out of 2010 through 2021, maybe early, very early, maybe some part of 22, it was really hard to mess up an apartment deal. You really had to try really hard. All the leaky boats came off the bottom of the ocean. And then when insurance started moving, and interest rates moving, and prices started getting, sometimes you couldn't bail them out. And so people had to become you know syndicators and underwriters became a little more creative and how the deals were presented- and as prices continue to escalate you know they would short the- growth on operating expenses or shorten the term the term of the interest rate cap the lender. Required them to take- and then with renovation costs increasing you know sometimes there wasn't enough money to renovate units and- had to cannibalize. Units to keep them full. But one of the things that I thought was very, I think, incredulous is the right term, is that in some of these newsletters that syndicators sent to their investors, they were trying to explain to investors why there's a problem, why we may lose some money, what went wrong. There was never any admission of guilt, or we messed up. We didn't make an assumption for this. We should have taken a longer term interest rate cap. There's no ways putting it off. And here are some of the main reasons that I've come across. Either it was bad property management. Lesser experienced syndicators hire inexperienced property managers. And then they say we had to fire them because they weren't doing the right job. And if they change the property manager, sometimes the numbers to improve a little bit. But, you know, the bigger issue right now is that the property was poorly managed and the occupancy is low and may need additional capital beyond the current reserves. You know, also contracted disputes, people who haven't negotiated a lot of contracts, you know, whether it's, you know, guaranteed maximums or things like that to renovate units found that they're escalated a lot. Beyond their control and then there was also the timing difference between getting the lender to disperse. Getting a lien waiver and not having the capital to lay out so then the vendor. Slash contractor went to another property you couldn't get back as you could pay him fast enough. You know it's a little bit of a breakdown what I'd say that the contractor provided extremely poor quality with the renovations. Making them need to renovate them additionally before they can rent them. Yet stuff like that really shouldn't happen. And then they say that, well, it was impacted by the Federal Reserve didn't need to increase rates, and they did. And that caused us to have a debt service shortfall because the interest rate on our loan went up. If they took a full-term interest rate cap, that wouldn't have happened. And then you know in addition to things that you know where they can't. Insurance is insurance. So we've seen a lot of things that they've blamed on on other people. And the most interesting thing is a lot of these syndicators are out raising money for new investments. And if you want to find out something about your syndicator. Put your name into the search bar Google look for troubled loans look for interest rate exposure look for defaulted loans to find them there they're not going to volunteer the information. And a syndicator should tell you about their bad investments and you should especially if you ask them directly.

Whitney Sewell: Yeah, asking them directly about their bad investments. I love that. Just get right to it, right? Like, tell me about what's gone wrong. You know, any other specific questions, and maybe there's other questions we'll get into that LPs should be asking, but specifically around, say, the bad deals that they've done or had, or, you know, what would be some good questions for an LP to dive into there a little bit with a sponsor?

Irwin Boris: I think you should ask them about, you know, cost overruns, of their renovations. You know how do they manage those- how do they manage interest rate risk. You might want to find out if there's an alignment of interest you know- do they also own the property management company. Do they own the contracting services- that's the vendor that's doing the renovations you want to find out you know how closely they had control these things- what's their experience with some of the vendors- I'd also ask for references not only from- other investors. But you know maybe some industry Contacts talk to some of their letters but i think you really find out a lot about people's character when you ask about bad deals. First i put the name put them into the search bar google find it was even some of the big big big names are there because they don't tell you we don't have any you know the lion and that should be a red flag another thing is. If they're not giving you access to all the due diligence on the property, you should have access to everything that they have access to, whether it's engineering, environmental, an appraisal, a survey. Not that you didn't know what you're looking at, but you should have access to it. Of course, you should have access to a working Excel model. The reason for that is that you might want to stress test it. You might want to see what happens if all this money and rents to go don't go up 8% they only go up three and a half percent what is my investment look like. Because syndicators and some of the sponsors a lot of them make their money based on the promote so if they think that the longer they hold that there's going to be no promote for them they're going to short the investment in order to boost. Their return and it could be at the investors expense. One thing you should also look at as an investor is what kind of cash flow. you could expect on a regular basis. Given where interest rates are and cap rates are, I can't see multifamily distributing anything current unless they're assuming debt that's at a below market rate, which there are opportunities out there, or B, they've built in some excess money into the capitalization to pay current. the business plan- you know maybe they have a continue the sponsor current sponsor just ran out of money he's got a container of kitchens and bathrooms they should have the funds to install them. And you're getting that inventory and so you can sort of project that are in twelve months you will have 50% renovated was the materials of their it's just a matter of labor- but I think more importantly you should. your expectations on whatever the projected IRR or equity multiple is, and maybe place as much weight on the ability for an investment to generate current cash flow. Because in a worst case scenario, if you're getting seven, eight, nine, 10% the year, and it was 10 years, you basically almost got your money back, and you beat the treasury or the bank account, and you got your principal back, plus your tax benefits, that would be okay, too.

Whitney Sewell: you know, speak to Erwin, say the newer, say LP, right. Or somebody that's just learning about our industry and they want to invest, you know, through the syndication model and a project commercial real estate through operators like us. You know, they get an Excel model. It's kind of hard to know where to start if you haven't had some training or something, you know, you haven't listened to a number of podcasts, you know, or something, you know, it's like hard to know where to start. Maybe give them just a few key things that have a starting point to, So they can figure out, hey, is this realistic or not? I loved what you even just said about some of the cash flow and things like that that you should expect. But where are they going to see that? What are some places maybe in the model that they should even go to at a very beginner level to figure out, OK, this is something I should look further into?

Irwin Boris: Some of these models should have an assumptions tab, which will tell you what they're growing rents at, what they're growing expenses at. They should also have historical operating expenses, so you know what the current insurance cost is. That will fluctuate market to market and year to year, depending on what the carriers want to do with their losses that they're trying to recoup for. But it'll give you, if you have enough history on the asset, you can see where rents come from and where they've gotten to. And then, you know, there are so many services you know that free services we can go on apartments dot com and just look at what asking rents are so you know if the rent in the model. Renovated rent for a two bedroom apartment is the same as everybody else is charging or is it a lot higher. You know so it's apartments dot com rent dot com all those free websites pretend you're renting an apartment. And really take a look at what the apartments look like on the inside. And all these sponsors have before and after pictures in their offerings of what the apartments look like today. look at them you can also map them with math you know when you go to Google maps see how far some of the other properties are on. Rent dot com compared to the subject property. And just see you in the same market so you can sort of get comfortable with the market expenses you know. The income is. Expenses are a lot harder and that's why you really got to hopefully get some historical operating expenses. You know I love when. And I hear this from some of my lender friends all the time that they get these deals and where. Broker mortgage brokers are projecting that operating expenses are going to go down 20% on the new management. It doesn't happen.

Whitney Sewell: A really good game plan on how that's going to happen. Right.

Irwin Boris: Well, that's another party I won't get into a lot, but there are certain people who have been banned from doing business with the agencies right now because of things like that. So you really want to look at what the historical operating expenses are and assume that they're going to grow at 3% or 4% the year, not at 1.5% the year. especially taxes, taxes are going to get reassessed on a sale. If not in the first year, then definitely by the second or the third year. So let's just see if they've taken that into account. You might see a big jump in real estate taxes, which would be the right way to underwrite. And you also want to make sure there's a big margin for error. It's like, ask the question, you know, how many times is the deal, you know, and you could look online also and see how many times the deal is traded in the last few years. sponsor how many times the you know the property been renovated over the last fifteen years. He knows. He absolutely knows. Because that's really part of his due diligence. So sometimes you are lucky enough to find a building where it's 50% original units and sometimes. They are 50% the newly renovated 50% were done by prior owners in different. Iterations of the renovation. Then you have to say well. I can understand the original units getting the bump, but I can't see spending any money on the old ones because it's about keeping the building full. And so you have to have a lot of units at different finishes at different price points. It's about heads on beds. You want occupancy. Occupancy will bring income, where turnover costs you income. So I think that if you're new to investing, I would look for something that's more net leased triple net lease where you don't have the operating expenses, something where you could say, OK, here are the contractual rents. Here's the tenants that's in there. And most of the operating expenses are paid by the tenant. I'm going to get whatever the cash flow is here. OK. And if that's all I get, are you happy? So we look at every investment as if we have to own it in perpetuity. Do we like the bones, the building? Do we think we could always keep it full? And are we happy with the cash flow? We always hope to make a profit, but we don't like to overpromise even to ourselves internally, because you can model anything you want in an Excel spreadsheet.

Whitney Sewell: Yeah, no, some great advice. And I want to get to as well, you know, as we're looking at that, you know, that model, we like it, we've invested. However, now the deal has gone sideways, right? Or, you know, there's some, there's some issues happening. I'd love to, you know, your thoughts on what to do then, right? For that, for that LP, you know, when they're, they're getting that call, right? That, hey, most likely we're losing our money or maybe it's a capital call.

Irwin Boris: Sure. Now, well, the question is what's gone wrong. You know, sometimes you like we had some construction projects in the middle of COVID and it took a lot longer to finish renovations, which couldn't get contractors. You know, people were out sick or there was a problem with the supply chain. Like I waited a year for 400,000 square feet of roofing per building. Uh, so, you know, and so things like that are understandable, you know, And that's a legitimate expense, capital call that's beyond anybody's control. Anybody's even foresight thought that something like that could happen. And so you might have to pony up some money, especially if it's for extending an interest rate cap, things like that. But you also should figure out gonna get my money out don't think you're gonna make money say are you protecting your existing investments so you get all your equity back. That should be the analysis you doing. You know because in some cases you have to spend money to protect all your money- to get any of it back. Rather than spend none of the money and you get nothing back- in a perfect world you know if you have a capital call and it's couple thousand bucks and you can. make it, and it's for a legitimate reason. Interest rate caps do expire. They shouldn't have expired, because sponsors should have taken a longer one to begin with. But you have to really look at the probability, are you going to get your money back? And I get those calls all the time. And I sat on one call with somebody. And they said, what do you think? I said, well, we don't have a choice, because the lender is going to put you in default. We can't refinance. But if we buy the two-year interest rate cap, I'd like to think in the next two years, the Federal Reserve is going to drop rates at least a point and a half. And at that point, the value should at least come up when we get out whole. And the investor said, I said, yeah, you should get all your money back. They said, OK, we're good if we just get all our money back. That's fine. And I think that's the right way to look at it. Don't say, what about my profit? You should assume that something's going to go wrong and that anyone that promises a 25, it's really going to be a 12. And could you live with a 12?

Whitney Sewell: Manage your expectations. I love that question, and managing your expectations. I love that. Yeah. Because over the last, what, 10 years at least, we've been taught to think, man, just 2x every time, or very quickly, right, in these big returns. And so we feel like, hey, if we didn't get that, then it's, you know, what happened, right? Investors are so upset, but I love the managing your expectations. But I would, I want to manage investor expectations from the sponsor side as well, right? I want to under promise and over deliver instead of them having to cut them in half. What are your thoughts on that?

Irwin Boris: Well, I guess one thing for an investor to look at a new deal is does the sponsor have any real equity in the deal? You know, is it a fund where the sponsor's got no investment in the fund? it's all third party money. Or is it a deal that's capitalized one at a time and the sponsor might have, you know, 15 or 20% of the equity in the deal, which to me would say that he's got a lot of skin in the game. And so I would look at deals like that where, you know, the sponsor has a lot of skin in the game because he's going to protect his money. He's not looking to. That's our number one rule. Don't lose money. So I'm protecting your money as if I'm protecting my own money because I don't like to lose. this is my personal money, the company money too, but I invest in these deals myself. So I'm protecting my money. So that's why we're conservative in what we do. And I think you should really look at, does the investor have any money in the deal? Don't look at the fees as he's taking his money out, because there are many deals that die, where the sponsor doesn't ask potential investors to contribute for dead deal costs. And so those really just keep the lights on, they pay for the lawyers, the bank fees, the appraisers on deals that never happen, where you never see an offering on a deal happening. But if the sponsor had 15%, 20%, 25% to the equity, great. Or if it's a really large deal, so let's say it's $100 million deal and the sponsor had $5 million or 5% in, that's still a significant amount of equity on an individual transaction. So I guess it's either percentage or absolute dollar amount, depending on the deal and how many other investors there could be. You want to know for sure that the sponsor's not going to say, oh, it's $5 million. It's toilet paper, because nobody's going to say that. I don't care who you are.

Whitney Sewell: what what should investors be hearing from sponsors right now? What, you know, how do you all communicate? What's the kind of best in class? You know, always, but then even, even right now, anything more than normal?

Irwin Boris: I think now should be communicating more often. With investors- good bad or or or even different just as to say send out the monthly no we distribute our financial statements monthly- investors get a full set of financials balance sheet. Income statement general ledger check register counts receivable and a copy of the bank statement. A lot of people say to me what do I need all this for. I said because you're an investor. You should have it. I want to know what's going on at the property. Do I have to read it all? No, just read the two-page narrative or the couple of paragraphs at the bottom of the email. That's there if you so desire. Let's say something you don't think is good news and you want to see more detail. All the financial data is there. And we always carry a trailing 12 forward every month so you can see comparatively how the property is performing. important for people to. Talk to investors more so- it will be a commercial product we have expiring leases we're talking to people six months early- they have a nine month notice provision so we're out there not. Nine months before the lease expires. trying to release the property, and either the tenant wakes up and says, oh, I'm going to be homeless, a commercial tenant, or I'm going to renew, or they're going to fall. So you want to know that the sponsor is proactive, and you should tell your investors how you're being proactive. multifamily should always be updating the monthly how many renovated how many unrenovated. How long units are sitting vacant before you can get a tenant in there. You know what's going on in the market what's your comparable set you're competing against and that's something also investor could. Could look up online or at dot com if they want to see it do you think they're really comparable or not. Yes sometimes those could be for window dressing sometimes not- you know are there any issues with the properties- When does insurance renew? How far advanced are you trying to reprice it? You got to show your investors how proactive and hands-on you are. And if there's an issue, have a second email go out in the middle of the month and say, hey, we had a problem. We had a fire. Don't let them see it on the 6 o'clock news or in the newspaper. Tell people real time, even good or bad. People appreciate your honesty.

Whitney Sewell: That's a great, a great piece of advice there for sponsors. I, I love seeing, or when, you know, when there's, especially if it's a good thing, but even if it's an unfortunate thing like that, like taking the opportunity to do what you just said, right? Like let's go ahead and proactively communicate with them and giving them the information as quickly as possible. I think it says a lot about. you know, your honesty, your integrity, and just wanting to inform them the best you possibly can. You know, what do you say about, like, what's going to separate, say, the best sponsors from the rest over the next, you know, 12, 24 months as well?

Irwin Boris: It's going to be an interesting question. I think that there are people that just have a big machine and can always raise money. And I just think investors have to ask the questions on, you know, what did you learn from your mistakes? Or even if you're being honest about your mistakes, I think apartments will always be a desirable asset class to invest in because of their perceived stability. But I think, again, it's about managing the investor returns. Syndicators make money on promote. And I just don't see how that's going to happen. as readily or as easily as it has over the last 10, 12 years in today's market, unless everyone's saying, the Federal Reserve over the next three years is going to cut rates 300 basis points. They're going to get cap rates going to go back down to where they were. If I were an investor, I got to think twice about that. You fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on me. little bit more conservative your apartments will stay full. It's a question on staying power how well capitalized deals are- with sure that they have longevity to make sure they can continue their occupancy- but again if you're a new investor. I think you should look at something that's more triple net. Multi tenant triple net investment. Our retail. Maybe maybe not depending in neighborhood shopping center grocery anchored yeah maybe- there are enough of those out there but the hard to finance. But- I think there are opportunities and you just have to be eyes wide open- where you know I think a lot of investors. who did early syndications made a lot of money and just did a lot less with no due diligence in the last couple of deals. What's that say what could go wrong?

Whitney Sewell: No doubt. Yeah. Some hard lessons being learned right now, you know, unfortunately for a lot of, a lot of operators in the industry. And so Erwin, I want to transition to a few final questions and you know, what's your best source right now for meeting new investors as you all grow your investor base?

Irwin Boris: We do, I attend a lot of conferences, and some of it's word of mouth. I'm an older American, and I'm not much on the social media stuff, so this is all new to me. I am doing some outreach through LinkedIn, where people tell me it works. It's interesting. At least I'm getting to get reacquainted with 15,000 people I'm connected to, some of which I haven't spoken to in 10 years, and see what's going on in their world. We are building a funnel. to try to market new investors. And every once in a while, we send out a newsletter to our existing investors. Hey, if we're doing a great job, great. Thank you. Tell us. If you don't want to tell us, tell somebody else that might have an interest. And we always find a couple of new investors on a yearly basis that way. We also have some institutional partners, and we still talk to them. A lot of them are actually backed And they've sort of changed how they look at things. Although in a fund, you're purely IRR driven because that's on your promote. Now it turns out all of a sudden cash flow is equally as important as IRR, which I never heard before. So we talk to a lot of institutional investors as well as high net worth attorneys, accountants, and we attend a lot of conferences. We'll attend probably more in the next year or so where you might find more investors than capital allocators. And it's about education. People say to me, how do you raise equity? I'm like, don't ask for it. And so just like I'm here, I'm not telling you I have a deal I need money for because I don't even have a deal, but I could find one really fast if I had the money. There are enough deals on the plate, but it's more about trying to educate people and exchanging ideas and telling them what they should look for. If they invest with me, great. If they invest with somebody else, I hope to at least use what I'm trying to teach them to make an investment decision. And that's really the value proposition.

Whitney Sewell: Erwin, what are the most important metrics that you track? It could be personally or professionally.

Irwin Boris: I tend to track cash flow on a deal for my investment decision, because especially if you're a salaried employee, W-2, that's paying your necessities, where cash flow from real estate could buy luxuries. It could buy vacations. And God forbid, let's say you got temporarily laid off, cash flow could help pay your living expenses until you find another job. I never say no to current income. And so that's why we focus primarily on that. We do model for a five-year hold because everyone likes to see what the potential profit is there. But as long as I know I can continually grow cash flow every year, that's very important. And I'll give you an analogy like that. If your leases are growing at 3% the year, take your body weight. Compound your body weight at 3% the year for the next 10 years. Tell me what you weigh. Tell me if you're happy with that weight. Probably not happy with the weight, but think of your money compounding. You're happy with that current return 10 years from now, knowing that the tenants are paying all the operating expenses. That's how we look at it. And that's why that's equally as important a metric for us as the back end. So 50% of the return, at least 50% should come from current income, the other 50% from appreciation and work in the asset.

Whitney Sewell: What are some habits that you have, Erwin, that you're disciplined about that have produced the highest return for you?

Irwin Boris: We're never the highest bidder on an asset. We bid with what we think makes sense for us. I don't care if the brokers are telling me or the sellers tell me I want to sell it on a five. If I think it's a seven and a half cap, that's what I offer. You'd be surprised, especially today. There are a lot of sellers really looking to transact. And so now, I test the waters. I say, you know what? I want you to hold a $5 million second mortgage. You'd be surprised. You might get some yeses. Or, you know what? It's $15 million of equity. We typically raise only $10. I want you to stay in for $5. on the new venture. You might get some interesting responses. So I think if you're a sponsor, be creative. Ask for some of these things, especially if you have expiring leases coming up and you want them to wrap the leases or provide some kind of fund for the lender to help you finance. Be creative. Ask. You never know. If you don't ask, you don't get.

Whitney Sewell: What's the number one thing that's contributed to your success?

Irwin Boris: not overpaying. You've got to make your money on the buy. It's all about patience. We have deals that have come back to us three months, six months, a year later, because the seller wanted the extra million dollars, or he just didn't find anybody else that was going to meet his price. And all of a sudden, he's willing to take less, because the fund is maturing. Maybe it's the last asset in the fund. We've seen some of those recently, too. And your reputation is everything. So it's all about relationships in this market, where once we buy in a certain market, we'd be surprised. People call us. Do you want to buy the building next door, the one down the block where we see you own? What else do you like to look at? So we're very fortunate in that way, where a lot of deal flow comes to us, whether it's from the big brokerage houses, we might get an early look, or it's a lot of sometimes property owners that own next to us that say, hey, you bought this one. We own the same kind of product. Here's what we want. Well, let's save the brokerage commission. Can we make a deal?

Whitney Sewell: How do you like to give back?

Irwin Boris: I like to try to educate people. During COVID, I saw what was going on. I actually When I have an educator's license to teach financial literacy and other financial subjects in the local high school, and I substitute from now on. It's just interesting that 14, 15, 16-year-olds, you try to teach about the banking and investments. How many people have a debit card or a credit card or a bank account? You get all those glassy-eyed kids looking at it. You know at you and you try to explain what banking is and saving money and investing and i really think that some of that stuff should be. Started at a much younger age even basic financial literacy in the elementary school because i think the sooner that young people understand money. And work. And investing the more. Adjusted to be when they get out in the workplace on how to save money and how to budget. So it's not just a surprise to get your first apartment to blow your paycheck or whatever and you got no money to pay rent. I'm sure we've all heard stories like that. So. I like to give back. I like to help people with their investments. And even now, I have a lot of call from investors who have invested in other deals. What do I think they should do? Or last night, I have a call. Someone said, I was offered a building for a million square foot in Stanley, Virginia. I said, it sounds like an old furniture deal. It's been vacant for a few years. They said, how did you know? I said, because typically, I said, I pulled it up on a map while you're on the phone. It's in the middle of nowhere. That's why the guy's owned it for 10 years and it's empty. I said, he thought he was going to do something with it. Now he just wants to get out.

Whitney Sewell: Wow. Erwin, grateful for your willingness to educate us over the last couple of days as well. So thank you again for your time, even going through in this segment, where do investors go wrong, right? And a number of great questions that LPs should be asking sponsors as they begin to do their due diligence and investing and even thinking through, when the deal goes sideways, what do we need to do as LPs? You know, what do they need to be thinking about and preserving their capital, right? Ultimately. So thank you again for your time and willingness, your generosity with sharing with us over a couple of days here. Erwin, how can the listeners get in touch with you and learn more about you?

Irwin Boris: My pleasure. It's erwin at heritagecapitalgroup.net. You can put my name in the search bar at Google. You can go to the website. We just finished doing that. There's also a lot of educational material that we've posted on there just about cap rates, cash flow, due diligence, things like that that might give you some better insight to how to make your own investment decisions, depending on what you want. There's also a way to sign up and get on the waiting list for when we do have an investment opportunity if you want that to be sent to you as well.

Whitney Sewell: Thank you for being with us again today. I hope that you have learned a lot from the show. Don't forget to like and subscribe. I hope you're telling your friends about the Real Estate Syndication Show and how they can also build wealth in real estate. You can also go to lifebridgecapital.com and start investing today.