Freedom Lifestyle
Ditch the rulebook, quit the cubicle, and get intentional about designing a life that feels good for you. What's your free?
Hosted by Sam Laliberte—serial entrepreneur, digital nomad, and your go-to gal for all things flexible work and freedom vibes—this podcast features real stories from people who’ve boldly said “no thanks” to the 9-5 and built lives they don’t need to escape from.
From remote work and online businesses to van life and financial independence, each freedom lifestyle episode explores real-life stories and strategies for breaking free from convention.
Live a life that’s courageously authentic and on your own terms. Live your free.
Freedom Lifestyle
From Biochemist to Poker Pro: Maddie Robinson
Insights from Professional Poker Player
Experience the exhilarating journey of Maddie Robinson, a former biotech salesperson whose life took an unexpected turn to the high-stakes tables of professional casinos. As her wins multiplied, so did her passion, until she made the daring decision to pursue poker as a full-time career.
Takeaways:
- Mastering the math and probability of poker
- Opportunities for women in poker (predominately male field)
- How much money you need to do poker full-time (bankroll)
- Poker as a path to financial freedom (how much she makes!)
Maddie paints an elaborate picture of her world: her own rituals, the challenges and stigmas surrounding her profession and how she juggles work and play while trotting the globe.
About the show:
Sam Laliberte - entrepreneur, digital nomad and freedom seeker, hosts the Freedom Lifestyle Podcast to expose people to the many ways you can design your dream life and unlock your own version of the freedom lifestyle. Her guests have empowered themselves through flexible work as a way to “have it all” - financial, location AND schedule freedom.
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I started replacing some of my bills with poker winnings, started out with, you know, maybe the electric bill, or maybe I was able to pay my car off, and that was really, really empowering. That's where I started to think huh, maybe I'm not just getting lucky, but I'm actually good at this, or this is something that I have an edge in.
Speaker 2:You're listening to the Freedom Lifestyle podcast series. I'm sharing relatable stories of freedom seekers who ditched conventional office life and courageously asked for more. The energy just completely shifted. My entire being just felt so free. My business was still generating income. While I was on the beach I decided to quit and just stay at home.
Speaker 1:I really can't work for anyone but me. It's literally just doing whatever the hell you want to do.
Speaker 2:As for me, I'm your host, sam, and I've spent the last four years creating a business that allows me to work from anywhere. The Freedom Lifestyle looks different for everyone. What's your free? You're listening to another episode of the Freedom Lifestyle podcast. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2:I know there are many exciting and valuable things you could be doing with your time right now, and you chose to be here with me, and that means a lot. When I'm creating these episodes, I ask myself what is something I wish I had known six years ago when I was starting my freedom journey, or what do I still need to learn and hear six years in? One thing that I had resisted for a really long time was paying for software and tools to actually run my business. I wanted to keep things as low cost as possible. I worked hard for that money. I wasn't just gonna spend it away. So I was doing a lot of things myself DIY hack solutions but ever since I started shifting my mindset and investing in the right tools, I really have been able to grow my business, because sometimes it takes money to make money. So true Good news is, I vetted a bunch of things for you and if you go to buymeacoffeecom slash what's your free. You can download a free copy of Sam's favorite tools. This is the tech, the tools and the software I swear by to manage my various location independent revenue streams.
Speaker 2:Today you are going to meet Maddie Robinson, who is a professional poker player who travels around the world, competing in tournaments and earning a full-time income. I was so curious about how Maddie transitioned from a nine to five job in biochemistry that she was super passionate about and was paying all of her bills, making over six figures, having that stable income, but how she actually left all that behind to go in on poker full-time. There's a lot of stigmas that people have about what it means to be a poker player, so we made sure to debunk all of those and I really appreciated how transparent Maddie was about the numbers of playing poker. She told us exactly how much money she saved and had in her quote unquote bankroll before she felt comfortable going full-time with poker, because you need money to make money in poker. We also talk about how much money she's hoping to make this year, her pro tips for playing, how she gets ready for game day and tournaments and some of her top resources. I think you're gonna love this episode. So, with no further delay, meet Maddie.
Speaker 2:Maddie, welcome to the Freedom Lifestyle podcast. Thank you for being here. I am so excited to dive into your story. I have never met really a professional poker player, let alone had someone on my podcast. I could speak about what it's like to actually have that career. Well, I'm excited to share it.
Speaker 1:We do exist poker players in. It's definitely a non-conventional but very exciting Way to navigate through life.
Speaker 2:Totally so. If you weren't on this interview with me today, what would you be doing?
Speaker 1:I would be studying. Maybe I spend a lot of time studying the game of poker. It is a numbers game, so I never thought I would end up using math so much in my career and in my job, but I do spend quite a bit of time studying. But I might also be on a bike ride. I love to ride my bike playing with my cats. I'm a cat mom, proud cat mom, but yeah, I live in Colorado, so I love to spend time outdoors. That's really where I find a lot of my rejuvenation, and balancing coming in is being able to spend time by the river or on my bicycle.
Speaker 2:Love that Amazing. Well, I'm glad you took some time out of riding your bike and being in peaceful nature or studying to be with us and share with us a little bit about what it's like to live your lifestyle. You said math and studying, which I think is one of the first stigmas people have about playing poker. Right? Is that it's all about gambling and you're so risk seeking and you're just like living this lifestyle on the edge at all times. What would you say to somebody who thinks that's what you're doing?
Speaker 1:You're absolutely correct. That is one of, I think, the biggest stigmas surrounding professional either gambling or card playing or gaming of any kind is that it is high risk In some cases. That is true, but if you're playing the game correctly, then you are involved in hands within the game of poker that are mathematically justifiable. Certain ranges of hands meaning getting involved in a hand or calling a bet. It makes sense that you're there. You have a certain amount of equity to be making these calls or making these bets, and if you don't, then you should be folding. So that's really where the gamble comes in and where gambling is different from people that are actually playing for a living. And playing correctly is the amount of risk you're taking on in certain phases within a hand.
Speaker 2:So if I'm in a hand usually.
Speaker 1:I have quite a bit of equity, or equity that may come into fruition in further streets in a hand.
Speaker 2:Okay, a lot of words I don't fully understand, but I think that's a good follow-up question. Do we need to be mathy stats? People understand probability, that kind of thing. Is that part of it, and was that who you were growing up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I realized when I was giving that description. I'm like this is a lot of poker lingo. There is a good amount of math involved, but essentially the way a poker hand goes down is everyone has dealt two cards, and then there are five community cards, and it's all about getting the best five cards, based on the ones that you have in your hand plus the community cards on the table. There's three different betting rounds, and you can either fold, bet or check your hand, and so I would say that, if you're playing poker correctly, you are very savvy with the math. It's factoring into every decision that you're making.
Speaker 2:And were you like A plus 90s Cal math in high school? Or is this something that you had to get good at because the passion for playing poker was there and so math was a requirement? Or did that actually come easy for you because you had that foundation growing up?
Speaker 1:That's a great question and, to be honest with you, I was not a great student. I was not a good student in high school and junior high colleges when I really started to find a little bit more motivation. But math was never really interesting for me because it wasn't relevant to anything that I cared about. So now that it is, I find math very interesting. I enjoy learning how to apply math to poker, but that's kind of been the case for me. I have a hard time devoting my energy to something that I don't care about, and so that's why poker has been such an amazing fit for me, and I'm really thankful to have a skill set that I can utilize here, because I really love the game. I'm super passionate about it. I'm very competitive by nature, so it's an arena where I can compete mentally, and I love that about it. So it makes the math a little bit less daunting.
Speaker 2:We'll say that Totally, and I think that speaks a lot to how the education system is broken for many people and how they felt like they maybe didn't thrive in the traditional education system, because it's like why am I learning this? Give me a reason to understand this and give me some applications for it. And that's so funny that, for you, poker and this passion that you had was what finally made you say, okay, I'm actually going to do this and to try to learn this because this is meaningful to me, versus you're going to learn this because we say you have to learn it. So I think that's such a good point.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, and I think, when it comes to a career, I think we all owe it to ourselves to do something that we're either really good at or that we love, because then it just it makes it so much easier to go to work. I think being good at something is fulfilling in and of itself. Just loving what you do is meaningful, so absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the questions I asked you in the preform was how does the term freedom lifestyle resonate with you and what advice do you have to somebody who is pursuing a freedom lifestyle? And you said that the first step is to discover what brings you the most joy, the most fulfillment. So how did you realize poker was yours? Do you remember the first time you ever were taught poker, in the first game you played? I?
Speaker 1:do I do? I remember my dad hosted a home game. They have all the boys over, you know they drink beer and eat meatball sandwiches and it was just guy time and I kept telling all my boyfriends I'm like you know, I really want you to go to the poker game. You know, get to know my dad hang out with the guys and none of them were very interested in the game, and so eventually I realized that I was the one that was interested, so I finally talked him into teaching me how to play. It was just a wrap from there. I loved everything about it. So I remember the day actually my dad said I think you've surpassed me in poker.
Speaker 1:You've learned everything you can from me, but I learned it from him and I just went to his home game and then eventually I started playing at real casinos, you know, where they have professional dealers and all that sort of stuff, and so that's kind of where it started.
Speaker 1:I never expected that I would be doing this for a living, but as I developed my skill set in the game, I started replacing some of my bills with poker winnings. It started out with, you know, maybe the electric bill, maybe I was able to pay my car off, and that was really, really empowering. That's where I started to think, huh, maybe I'm, you know, not just getting lucky, but I'm actually good at this, or this is something that I have an edge in. And, you know, slowly I started replacing more and more of my income with this kind of fun little side hustle, and when I hit my first big tournament, that's when I realized that this could really replace my income altogether, and so it was a fun development to start to see it pan out in a way that that was meaningful and just to be able to do something I love to and generate some extra cash.
Speaker 2:How do you define your first big tournament Like can you share anything in terms of numbers? Was it an amount of money you made? Was it like winning the whole tournament and being the best that weekend? How do you define that?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it was taking second place in a regional tournament. I live in Colorado, so there are some casinos up here in Black Hawk, colorado, which is about 45 minutes west of Denver. There was a regional tournament, over 300 players, and I ended up taking second in that event and it was the first five-figure win that I'd ever had, and somewhere around, I think, 46,000. And that was just. I can't even describe the feeling that I had cashing in a tournament like that for that kind of money, and so that's what I specialize in Now as a poker player, there's different types of games that you can play, but tournaments are one where I really specialize and focus in, and that's exactly what it is is usually bigger wins. You won't win as many tournaments, but when you do hit in a tournament or cash in a tournament like that, usually it's a pretty substantial amount of money.
Speaker 2:Do you remember what you did with the money? Were you someone who tried to celebrate a win with a particular purchase or a particular type of investment in yourself? What did you do with the winnings from that one?
Speaker 1:As I've matured, I've become a little bit more financially savvy. So I do have kind of a system in place, because that's a thing about entrepreneurship and being a poker player. There's nobody that's putting money in my retirement accounts. There's nobody funding sick days or funding anything. It's all me. So I try to put a good portion of that away in accounts that I can easily liquidate but that will acquire some interest. I did put a little money away, but I did also take a trip. I was able to go to Las Vegas, which is kind of a work trip too.
Speaker 2:I was going to say that's what I think is Vegas a poker.
Speaker 1:I think it is important to reward yourself and get away from the grind a little bit, and take care of yourself.
Speaker 2:That is the first time you thought, okay, maybe I'm not just lucky, maybe I'm great at this and maybe this could be my career. So how old were you when your dad taught you poker? Because it sounds like he was having these games, maybe at the house, and it was just boys. So you thought, hey, well, I mean, I don't even consider myself being invited to something like that, so my boyfriends should go. But at some point he said, okay, dad, I might want to play. Could you show me how to play? How old were you when that happened?
Speaker 1:I think I was maybe 17 years old.
Speaker 2:I think it's the first time I really started playing so this whole time it's a hobby, it's something that for you, you're thinking I'm just lucky or this is just fun. What are you doing work-wise? How are you paying your electricity bill and for your bike tune-ups and all of those things in the meantime?
Speaker 1:My degree actually is in biochemistry and I was working in biotech sales, which was an extremely competitive career. I was good at it. There were aspects of it that I loved. It definitely was able to fund my lifestyle.
Speaker 2:Was that fulfilling? Because it sounds like that could be connected to a passion as well. I would guess.
Speaker 1:It was fulfilling. I really do love working with people In a sales position. It has a lot to do with relationship building and learning what your clients' needs are and then helping them solve those issues through whatever suite of products that you have. Then I was able to work with a lot of scientists and folks like that. I did enjoy that aspect of it.
Speaker 1:In your question about what does freedom really mean to me, I was able to experience a level of financial freedom which was really cool. I was able to experience locational freedom and I was working remote so I could be anywhere for the most part and still be able to carry out my work, but I didn't have a lot of extra time. My schedule was really restricted and I felt like I was always working. If I was off the clock, there was always stuff I could be doing or was somewhat expected to do. I think that's the piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 1:For me that was really daunting was just the needing to stick to a regular schedule. If you need time off, you've got to ask months in advance to get that time off. I'm a really spontaneous person, so it was hard for me to be able to accommodate my needs when I needed rest or a break or something, when I couldn't really expect when that was going to come, and get the time off in advance. That was the part of that career that I found really restrictive was just that I didn't really have autonomy over my time.
Speaker 2:The first person who actually mentioned being a spontaneous person as a reason for why the nine to five doesn't work, and it's so true, right? Whether it's, I don't know how I'm going to feel that time of the month. I don't know how I'm going to feel about the weather one day, if something exciting is going to happen, I don't know what my friends who have more flexible jobs are going to be doing, and you often have to give so much notice when you want to be quote unquote out of the office. That can be tough.
Speaker 1:It can be really tough, and I you know, when you're working at a job, you're making a trade off. There's a sacrifice, it's like a volitional submission to the system of an employer or a company and in exchange for you know, giving up your time and committing to a schedule, you get a reliable paycheck, and that's awesome. The reliability of a paycheck is huge, and it's something that I don't have in my current job as a poker player. I don't have that consistency. I'm really depending on myself, so there's a give and take. So I think you know, when launching it is some kind of entrepreneurial pursuit, it's important to understand that it's you and you alone that you're accountable to. So, as you're giving up or as you're gaining rather as an entrepreneur, maybe some more freedom, you also have to be extremely disciplined about managing your time and your resources, because nobody else is doing that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah discipline is huge. How do you discipline yourself? Do you have some type of morning routine or way that you set up your week or your day to help you stay focused and getting the stuff that you need to get done done, because now you don't have a boss who's gonna stop you from hopping on a flight to Vegas if there's a cool opportunity or if the sun is shining and you wanna go for a bike ride? How do you still make sure you are accountable to yourself?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question and it's an area that I am constantly dialing in. You know I can technically wake up whenever I want to, so what's to stop me from sleeping in, or you know? But I do have a morning routine that involves waking up at a certain time every morning. I try to keep that really consistent Drinking water. I have a whole dietary regimen that I try to stick to Breakfast, exercise and then study. I build that study time into my schedule because that's part of my job. If I'm not playing, if I'm not in a tournament this week or next, then instead of spending that time at the table, I'm spending it studying. I have books, equity calculators and just a lot of resources that I use to keep myself sharp and to make sure that I'm, next time I am at the table, that I'm at playing my A game.
Speaker 2:What are some of your favorite resources for studying poker? For somebody who tuned into this episode because they saw the title not sure what we're gonna call it yet, but we're really drawn to this episode because they were interested in this lifestyle what would be some resources you would point them to?
Speaker 1:First of all, you gotta understand the basic fundamentals of the game, and there are tons of resources available just to learn how to play. You know what's a flop in poker, what's a turn, what's a river, what are your whole cards. So the first thing you need to do is understand how the basic structure of the game is played and then go up to a casino If there's a casino near you, play a really easy low stakes game just to understand the flow of the game. And then, as you start getting more sophisticated and wanting to level up, that's when you can start to study with an equity calculator. Equalab is a free online equity calculator that you can use that will help you understand. Basically, what it calculates is what is the value of my specific holding versus my opponent's potential holdings, what I think they could have, cause that's gonna influence a lot of the decisions that you will make throughout a poker hand. So poker equity calculator Equalab is great.
Speaker 1:And then there's also a resource called GTO wizard, and it's GTO is game theory optimal, which essentially means it's the mathematically perfect action in any hand with any two cards.
Speaker 1:It's the mathematical, certain perfect way to play. So it tells you when to fold with this hand, when to bet, when to raise. So understanding that mathematical, perfect way to play is a good foundation to have, and you definitely deviate from that for a lot of reasons based on other information that you might be getting from a player as you're observing them at a table, but understanding the basic fundamentals from a game theory optimal perspective, is super important. So I like GTO wizard. It's a software that you can study with that you can plug in certain hands that you might have and what your opponent had, and it'll spit out the correct, the mathematically correct way to play. So it's really nice to have that as a study tool. But I also am a huge fan of Jonathan Little. He has a lot of poker coaching resources and books and things that you can use to study with as well, so he's definitely one that I would recommend.
Speaker 2:And now we're talking a lot about math and using numbers and using your brain. How much does just like body language and feeling out your component come into play when you're playing the game, I imagine more in person than online. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's kind of what I was referring to with, like the other information that you might take in at a table outside of you know, the actual hand that you have on the board, the actual practical information there is, you might notice. In poker they're called tells A tell you might be getting information from somebody's body language, and that type of information is very relevant. That's why it's really important to pay close attention to those kind of things. I don't ever recommend that you're on your phone while you're at the poker table or watching TV, because there's a lot of information that is, you know, being given out consciously or subconsciously by your opponents, and so being able to observe people and read people and notice things like that is very helpful in poker. One example of a tell might be.
Speaker 1:I was in a tournament one time with I was down to the last three and one of my opponents would make this kind of grimace with his face when the flop would come out, and as I watched him do this over the course of multiple hands, I realized that he did it when he didn't like the flop, or the flop or the cards on the board did not connect with the two cards that he was holding and so over time I was able to exploit that tell.
Speaker 1:So I know he doesn't like his hand, so I can maybe, with a you know mediocre cards, throw a bet in that I know he's going to fall to, because I know that his hand does not connect with this board based on his body language. And that was a very obvious tell. Sometimes you don't get so lucky with your opponents where they're so obvious in their body language. A lot of really good poker players are very aware of how they're behaving at the table and so they're kind of they have those tells on lockdown. But if you're observant you could definitely pick up on that type of information and utilize it to your advantage.
Speaker 2:So, juicy, so do you train yourself to be very aware of your own body language? I guess there's a sense of like stoicism it's probably not wanting anyone to know what I'm thinking or feeling or how I'm reacting but then is there, like red herrings, where I'm actually trying to maybe give us a grimace. What did you say?
Speaker 1:Grimace, what you're referring to is actually a very real thing and it's called it's like people refer to that as reverse tells. This fits into the meta game of poker. So the game within the game within the game. Oh yeah, it's, it's. It gets juicy, but really good poker players are very observant.
Speaker 1:People may be aware of what weakness looks like. You know. Naturally, if somebody's uncomfortable or weak, they tend to kind of cower inward. They're less likely to have the shoulders back, head up, chest out, looking up, chin up. Those are behaviors that are associated with strength and being comfortable as opposed to cowering inward. So some people may try to look weak when they are actually very strong.
Speaker 1:So tells, it's hard to know how reliable they are, and using information like this should be in addition to the actual mathematical things that you're seeing. So betting patterns, how much money is being bet on the table, how much equity you actually have with your two cards, all of that stuff is kind of the the real meat and potatoes. But being able to use these tells as an additional layer of information can sometimes yield additional profit. But there are players out there that that are very, very savvy with how they are showing up at the table physically and can use those body language tells to their advantage. I try to give out, as you know, as most poker players give out as little information as possible so I don't use a lot of that reverse tell type psychology. But I do talk to people a lot at the table. I try to just keep really confident, keep the energy light, but if I'm in a hand, involved in a hand, I'm not talking at all.
Speaker 2:Okay, there you have it, if you ever play against Maddie Robinson. There's the tell. There's the juicy secrets. There's the juicy secret. How can we unveil kind of the mystery around numbers and how much money you can make in poker? Like, how do you think about your revenue on a monthly basis? How attached is it to how many games you're playing, versus playing the right tournaments or right games? Of course you're now doing this full time, so you must have been able to get to a place where the money is meaningful. But how much are you willing to share about the money that can be made in poker and how you personally think about revenue targets for your own business?
Speaker 1:That's a really good question. I do want to be really transparent about it so that you know, people can really know what does it take to really do this for real? The first thing that's relevant to poker is you have to have a bank role. You have to have money to make money, because you're putting money on the table every time you sit down at the poker table. So the amount of money that I saved up prior to launching into full time poker was $20,000. That is a number that I felt would be appropriate for the level of games that I wanted to play. When I knew I wanted to do this, I kind of it was about saving money. It was about just preparing to be really be able to do this for real. So I put aside $20,000 and that took me about, let's say, maybe a year and a half of really heavily saving.
Speaker 1:The reason that it's important to have a sum of money that you can utilize is because you very well may lose before you win and if you burn through your bank role, then the dream is over. You don't have any more money to invest in playing. So you need to have we call them buy-ins multiple. You know, call it like a little pot of money that you're putting on the table to bet with and play with. So you need to have enough of that to be able to invest in multiple games, because sometimes you may play correctly and play right and still lose, and that's what variance is.
Speaker 1:This is the mathematical certainty and basically refers to the natural statistical fluctuations or, like you know, the ups and the downs that can happen in short-term results. So basically think about, like a scenario where you're flipping a coin. We know that half the time you're going to flip tails and half the time you're going to flip heads. But if you only do 10 flips, you know it might happen that six times out of 10, you get the heads and four times you get the tails. So in a short-term scenario you might not achieve that expected statistical result. And so how that plays out in poker is you might do everything mathematically right and still lose, because there is a component of luck. But in the long run you will achieve that mathematical certainty and achieve that expected result.
Speaker 1:But the bankroll is to sustain you so that you can play enough games to actually be able to achieve that expected statistical result. If you're going to play poker for a living, you have to have a bankroll. So, depending on the amount of money or the buy-ins that you're playing or the level of games, in cash games there are different stakes. You might be playing $1, $2 stakes or $2, $5 stakes versus tournaments where you have an initial buy-in which could be, for a smaller tournament, maybe $50, $100 or $1,000. There's some tournaments that cost $10,000. So, thinking about how many buy-ins you want to have, you've got to save all that money in advance so that you can really play the game correctly and withstand some losses.
Speaker 2:And so when you think about how successful you are financially as a poker player, most businesses will say I'm trying to get to 10k months. You have a monthly goal that you're trying to hit with your revenue, trying to have it consistent, maybe have an annual total. I feel like that might be different from you, like some months you might be up, some might see you might be down. So are you keeping track overall how much you've been up or down in your lifetime? Is that how you think about it, or are you also tracking monthly revenue in hey?
Speaker 1:I am tracking everything. So every tournament that I plan, every poker session, I am tracking my results. So was I up or down and how much? And I use a tool called Poker Analytics. It's an app where you can track your results. So I'm tracking everything.
Speaker 1:But you're absolutely right, in poker it's not so much a bi-weekly paycheck or a monthly paycheck. I guess I sort of think of things in quarters, so quarter one, quarter two, quarter three, quarter four, because I do. You know, with poker it's so variable that I think taking a more long-term perspective on the profitability is easier for me. So, for example, in quarter one or quarter two, I was able to make 46,000 from a tournament win. Thanks Quarter three, I'm actually down 10,000, roughly. These are rough numbers.
Speaker 1:So by the end of the year my goal is to. I guess the goal I'm shooting for is 100. That's a lofty goal, but I'm looking to compete with my actual nine to five income. So I have an idea of what my expenses are each month and how much I have to pay towards bills. And even before I launched into poker I was able to pay over 50% of my bills with poker winnings. So in a nutshell, poker is definitely a little more variable, you might have a really good month and the next month you could be down a little bit, you know. And so that's where, again, having that bank role to be able to sustain you and be able to pay your bills if you don't win for a couple of weeks, or maybe a month.
Speaker 2:And does any sense of doubt creep in for you on those low amounts? Like entrepreneurs, experience the roller coaster of some days I'm winning, some days I'm losing in a different way, but for you it's in a literal way. When you lose, do you question your ability to do this, or are you very confident in it and just see it as a long game and you're able to pick yourself back up, no problem? What is that like?
Speaker 1:There are definitely some very dark days. I will totally admit that that losing hurts. Losing really really hurts, especially when you're losing money. So this is where the mental game of poker really comes into play. And this is where understanding the math, understanding the cards and how to play correctly and committing to your strategy, understanding in advance that you can lose you can still do all of that and still lose, but it doesn't mean that you're playing incorrectly. It just means that you're experiencing some of that negative variance. But I understand that in the long term my strategy is a winning strategy. Mathematically. I've seen that play out literally at the table. In those moments where I have lost, I've kind of built the mental prowess to be able to trust in my strategy and trust in the game and the math that I know that I will win overall. And that is a truth about poker that if you are playing the numbers and you're playing correctly, you will win.
Speaker 2:It sounds very similar to investing You're going to see some ups and downs and going to see some variance.
Speaker 1:It's very, very similar to that, Because to do that correctly, you have to have a bank rule, you have to have some of money that you can actually invest with.
Speaker 1:So I would say that that's a direct parallel and analogy to poker. And yeah, like I said, there's some dark days. That's why I study, that's why I prepare, that's where having balance is really important too, being able to get away from the table, and for me it's getting near the river, getting on my bicycle to recenter myself. But that would be a piece of advice that I would have for anyone in entrepreneurship or poker specifically is allow yourself, give yourself permission to have a long term perspective on things, because sometimes in the short term you're not going to get these incredible, amazing results, and there have been times where I've hit in a big tournament and it sometimes feels like short term. But really this is a long term game and I understand that those big hits are going to be intermittent, depending on how much I'm playing. But having a long term perspective and mindset will kind of alleviate the pressure and the stress that happens when you have short term losses or experienced short term negative variance.
Speaker 2:Thinking long term. That's such great advice. So we talked a little bit about your morning routine and how you like to set up your days. Do they differ at all? Going into a tournament day, do you have any rituals or superstitions, things you wear, things you do to get in the game, or is that just drama that you see on TV? Is that true?
Speaker 1:It's definitely true. It's definitely true, and here's what I'll say when I am at my best is when I'm happy, when I feel good, and that sleep is so critical. I think for me, one of the biggest developments in my health was understanding how critical sleep is. Yeah, we all know you're supposed to eat, we all know you're supposed to exercise, but sleep is a huge pillar of health and well-being. So I am very protective over my sleep.
Speaker 1:Preparing for game day. I'm well rested and here's my secret sauce is I have spaghetti and meatballs the day before. That's like my favorite food. I could eat that every day. I love it so much. So usually at some point the week before, the day before, the few days before, I'm likely eating spaghetti and meatballs. Spending time with my family, spending time with my cats on my bike that's the way that I prepare myself for a tournament is just being happy. Creating balance, I think, is what it's about, is spending time enjoying life, and that's when I feel like I play the best, because I'm rested and I'm rejuvenated and I'm excited to play.
Speaker 2:What about being a woman in the room? Like you mentioned, growing up it was boys poker night. That still kind of exists in mainstream media. I see it in my social groups as well. Are the tournaments coed, or do you have to go to female-only poker tournaments? How does that work? And what has it been like being a woman in the game, the sport, what are we calling it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a sport. For me it's a game, but you know, I feel like a mental athlete. Like poker, definitely women are. There are less women that play poker professionally, there are less women that play poker in general, and you know there's a variety of reasons for that. Who knows exactly why, but you know I am a minority at most poker tables. In fact, if there's more than one woman at a table, we're always kind of like hey, girl, what's up? High five, and each other like so actually, I was in Las Vegas this last summer for the World Series of poker and they, like many tournament tours, have a ladies event and I will tell you, it is like it was the most fun event I've ever played.
Speaker 1:It was so. There was so much camaraderie and mutual respect and just like a mutual understanding among us. But, like you said, for the most part there are less women and for me I would say that the biggest mistake that some opponents make is underestimating female players or playing differently against us, and that's a mistake, because you could be up against a. You know your opponent could be extremely competent. You know, and I think a lot of players maybe just don't experience as many women at the table, and so they make the assumption that we're new to the game or not as good at the game or whatnot, and so. But when you're around really professional players, they know better. But I would say that some players do call me when I'm betting with hands that have very low equity, because they don't necessarily expect me to have a strong hand. So sometimes that's a good thing. I get a lot of what is called action people calling my bets, raising my bets, but oftentimes, like the really good players don't play differently against females.
Speaker 2:Well, it sounds like it's been a bit of an advantage for you then.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's the thing is it's definitely an edge, for sure, and something that I definitely used to my advantage. You know somebody underestimates me, then I will exploit them as much as I possibly can, try to extract as much value when I'm playing against them as I possibly can. And that's the fun thing about I guess people underestimate me was just use it to your advantage. But I've always been in circles where there have been more men. I used to be a RAF guide.
Speaker 1:There was very few women in that arena sports my chemistry degree but I am starting to see more women playing and, on that note, I would love to see more women at the table. So more and more women, I think, are playing poker and are engaging with the game, and at this women's tournament that I was at in Vegas, there were some extremely competent players, very, very good players, and it was the biggest turnout that the World Series of poker has ever seen for the ladies event. So, yeah, we're up and coming. Look out, guys, because more women are playing poker and I think that you know women tend to carry different types of intelligence. That, I think, is very applicable at the poker table.
Speaker 2:Well, if there's a woman listening, a lady tuning in who just thinks, oh, I would love to do it Maddie's doing, are you open to chatting with anybody? If so, what is the best place we should direct people to get in touch with your work or get in touch with you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I would love to encourage as many women that are interested in this or just, you know, want to play poker, give a shot, and I would love to be a resource. People can connect with me on Instagram and Twitter. Those are the easiest ways. Those are the platforms that I use the most and my handle is at what's good, maddie.
Speaker 2:Amazing and very soon there's going to be a podcast, because that's how you and I actually met, right. So when is your podcast expected to launch and what is the name of it?
Speaker 1:The podcast is bad poker advice and I am planning to launch it in the fall, so hopefully September, october timeline. I'm still working on getting some guests together, but the podcast is going to be surrounded around the concept of the lifestyle that is involved with playing poker professionally. But also the reason I called it bad poker advice is because I personally have learned the most when I screw up, when I make mistakes. So all the guests are going to share kind of some of those moments at the table when they might have made a big mistake or made a call they shouldn't have made or taken an action they shouldn't have taken in what they learned from that. So bad poker advice, hopefully planning to launch it this fall.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Well, definitely send me the link when it's live. I'll add it to the show notes later, even if this episode comes out first, and in the meantime I'll include a link to your social media handles. Thank you so much, maddie, for really unveiling the curtain of what it is like to be a professional poker player, everything from how much money you're actually making in your targets to how much money you had to save. I really appreciate you just being so transparent. It's helpful. You know, for too vague on doing actually say what may mean it's really hard for people to gain clarity and take action. So I really appreciate that transparency.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and thank you for having me. This has been really fun.
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