Exploring Attachment Styles: Quickie with Amanda Blair

QUICKIE: What are attachment styles? Why are they important in understanding ourselves and our deepest relationships?  This week I'm back with my cohost Amanda Blair to chat all things attachment 101. We're breaking down what the 4 attachment styles are, sharing our own journeys of attachment, and giving all the tools to work toward a healthier way of relating. 

On this episode we cover

• What are attachment styles
• 4 main attachment styles
• Unconscious programming 
• Attachment spectrum
• Rewiring the brain
• Codependency vs Interdependency
• Attachment in romance
• Attachment in friendship
• Relationship capital

Mentioned Resources
workbook: Attachment Theory Workbook
book: Attached

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Connect with Quickies cohost Amanda Blair:

• amandablair.org (she does 1:1 coaching!) 
• @xoamandablair

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Transcript

0:00

Music. Amanda, Amanda, Amanda, Amanda Show! Do you guys remember that? If you don't, I just aged myself. If you do, I think it was like Teen Nick? Can't remember. But throwback to the Amanda Show, I'm really excited today. Welcome to the Bedside Podcast, first and foremost. Today we have a quickie with my co-host, Amanda Blair. And if you're new here, we do a fun series called Quickies. It is with my co-host Amanda, who is a manifestation expert, a relationship coach, and we dive into all things manifestation, relationships, sex, intimacy, and really the kind of objective of this series is to give you guys just real tangible tips, how-to's. We give you like real life situations, we cover a lot of our own stories and circumstances we've been in, circumstances that we are currently in, and it is a very, like, fun and advice-driven. Series. And I love Amanda. Amanda is one of my favorite humans. So today we are talking all things attachment theory. Now, some of you might be familiar with this. There has been a lot of noise around this topic on the internet for quite some time. People talking about attachment styles, delving into it. There's a lot of profound therapists and coaches and teachers who. Teach the fundamentals of this work. And honestly, in a lot of episodes that I do with Amanda, we touch on it, we mention it, we cite it, but we've never ever done an episode where we dive deep into really the foundations of attachment theory, what it means, what are the attachment styles, and what we should be looking out for, how we can kind of work with our attachment style to benefit us in the future and as we evolve. So today we just like are diving very, very deep into this topic and kind of just doing like an attachment theory 101, if you will. And I think honestly, we will probably do a lot more episodes on attachment styles and attachment theory because we realized as we were recording like this is such a massive of topic and it applies to so many circumstances. So stay tuned for more to come, but today we are diving into attachment styles, what they are, the attachment styles that Amanda and I are in currently, what we've previously been in. So you'll kind of get a really large understanding. And I was actually really happy to find out that Amanda and I wear different attachment styles at different points in our lives. So you kind of get a full breadth of what they are and then what it can be like to have a lived experience in a particular way. Attachment style. So anyways, there's a really fun episode. I'm so excited for you guys to tune in, Honestly, like grab your pens and papers This is one where you're just gonna like be wanting to take a bunch of notes and we cite a lot of resources in this So, you know listen to this hear it from a high level, digest it sit with it and then we give a couple different resources of. How you can kind of explore this further on your own whether that's like through therapy There's some workbooks that we mentioned. Amanda has a great worksheet that is a part of this as well. So there are a lot of kind of like takeaways from here that you can kind of go and investigate further after you listen to this episode. So without further ado, please welcome my amazing co-host Amanda to Bedside and let's dive deep on attachment theory. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Bedside podcast. I have my co-host for Quickies here, Amanda Blair. Hello, hello, hello. We are very excited to chat with you today. We've got a good episode lined up because I think this is, we're gonna be talking about attachment styles today. And we've never, we've always touched on it. Like we've mentioned it, we've cited it in our episodes, but we've never done a deep dive. So I'm very excited to dive into this because I think a lot of people are very curious. Anyways, before we get deep into it, Amanda, how are things? You officially left TBM. Yeah, things are great. I'm loving coaching on my own. It's going really well. I love using the tools that I've cultivated over the last five years, which I'm focusing a lot more on hypnosis. I finished hypnotherapy school last year, but I wasn't really using it in TBM sessions Cause like that just wasn't. Like what it was for, you know? And so now I was doing it a little bit with people that wanted to, but now that I'm on my own, I'm like using it a lot. And it's really cool. Cause I feel like I'm able to be more effective in sessions with people versus be like, okay, well like go do this thing. And like, you're on your own. It feels much more therapeutic and I can guide them, which feels awesome. So I'm loving it. I'm loving being on my own. And though I was so terrified of the, of doing it, making the transition, it's been awesome thus far. Obviously it's scary when you think about doing something big, taking a big jump, but then once you get there, you're like, it's good. Yeah. What was the most scary part? Was it telling the team? No, because I knew they would be supportive and they were. I knew Lacey would be like. Good for you. So excited. Awesome. Can't wait to watch. And I knew the rest of the team would feel that way too. And they did. That was, Evers response was like, oh, we're so sorry to see you you go, but like also stoked for you, good for you. Can't wait to see what you do. And you know, like Jessica has been very sweet and like, I'll promote anything that you're doing and like, let's stay connected. And like, I can help in any way. Like Grace has been like that too, which has been awesome. And Grace is the, I don't even know what her title is. I guess director of marketing. She does a lot for that brand. She's a very talented woman. Anywho, so it wasn't that, it was more the identity piece, right? Like I am connected to this brand that is very big, that has a lot of cachet, that's a huge platform, that is very cool, you know, very LA cool. And if I'm not associated with that, then what will I do? Right. Will be enough on my own. And so that was really the hard part, was like working through that and recognizing that. Of course I am. And yes, my platform might not be as big as TBM's and that's okay. It doesn't need to be. It might grow to a different place. It doesn't need to ever... I don't need to compete. I don't need to use that even as a comparison. TBM is an amazing thing and it's doing its thing, but I also get to do mine and let that experience be insular. I don't need to look at other things to to be like, well, it's not doing well. Like I'm not interested in that. So I don't keep tabs on that sort of thing. I just want everything to like organically grow and go that way. And I will be finishing my first year of grad school at the end of September and then starting my second year thereafter, I'm not taking any breaks. So I'll be done with like the schooling part, probably this time or like, you know, end of summer next year, and then starting my practicum then my internship. And I'm not entirely sure about the payment sitch. I think when I'm doing my practicum, that is when I'm the little lowest. And then as I move out of that and I have more hours in my belt, I do think I can work at a practice and earn a little bit, not what I would would be when I'm done with my hours and fully licensed. So. I'm going to, if I can, focus fully on that when that comes around. So that's also something I'm looking forward to of really getting into the therapy practice. I will probably still always coach because it just will mean that I can work with more people because my therapy practice will be in Oregon, in Portland. Sure. Right. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to that. And I'm just excited. I'm just stoked. I feel really good. I like being my own boss. I love not having to worry about anything. I will say the branding piece is challenging and I've been trying to create more content on IG and sometimes I'm just like, how does one churn this out? But it's also exciting. I'm going to launch an ebook on attachment theory. So we're talking about this very timely. I'm going to do a workshop on it. And I couldn't do that when I was with TVM. So there was very much a ceiling and I had reached my potential there, and that's why I had to leave. I was like, there's just like nothing more growth-wise for me here. So now that that's gone, there's just so much ahead to look forward to that I'm really excited. Yeah, a whole new size of shoes to fill. Exactly. Yeah. It's like you graduated and it served its purpose, and now you're ready for the next thing. So it's actually so exciting. I can't wait for you. It's so exciting. I had such a great time there. It was such a fantastic experience. It's just so funny the way that I used to think about it, right? It was like, TVM was like the top, the tippy top, like Everest, like, oh my God, like dream manifestation. I will be there forever. And it's so funny to think of it. It's like, well, no, of course not. That just wouldn't be me, you know, going after my own growth. And I think also my, you know, like the people that I'm looking to as like, you know, sort of of who I want to. Like emulate are different. Now it's like Sue Johnson who started emotional freedom or emotional focus therapy and Esther Perel and just like those are like women that I'm like really like, wow, I want to go and create something like them. It's funny how we can sometimes really put ourselves in a box and then we have to be like, oh, I don't have to be in this box. I can get out of this Yes, yes. Oh, my God. Esther Veral is like a huge name. I've thought so long. She's probably my dream interview. Oh, my God. She would be incredible. She's just so – she has so much wisdom to share and every sentence is like a gut punch and like so truthful and she's just – It makes you like melt at the same time. I know. But also, she's just like such a cool woman and I just – I admire her greatly and I love her podcast and everything that she does. I would love to work with her in some capacity, train under her in some way. If she taught trainings, I would be signed up immediately. If I ever got her on the show, I think I'd bring you in and we'd do a dual interview. You know, if I have questions, I'm just going to fangirl over here. Yeah. And I love her take on things. I think her take on things, I don't always agree with in terms of philosophy wise, but she always makes me think about something. She always broadens my worldview. I think it's important to allow for dreams can change and shift. What was once your top will eventually be stagnant. How exciting, because then you get to find something new. Yes, 100%. I love it. I'm so excited for you. Thank you. Me too. I'm excited for our branding session. We're going to have fun. Yeah, me too. I really need it. Yeah, we'll do it. I'll send you a whole exercise. Not my strength, for sure. That's okay. You know what? You know your strengths, you know your weaknesses, and you fill in the pockets. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Anyways, Let's kick off this conversation on attachment styles because I feel like there is... So much here like honestly, we could do like a whole series on attachment styles I think let's start like a very high level Yeah, and we'll kind of see where it takes us. But you know, who knows this might lead to a part two. Who knows? Yeah, let us know if you would like one. Yes, so I think my first question for you is. To get kind of a high-level level understanding of like what are attachment styles and what are the different ones? Attachment styles basically says the way that we attach to our caregivers in childhood will be the way that we attach to our adult partners, romantic partners in adulthood. John Balby was the originator of attachment theory, but he was working mostly just with children. And then Mary Ainsworth came in and took a little further. And then there's a couple other psychologists and researchers that I'm forgetting the names of that like then brought it to relationships as like fully kind of completed that circle. So there's many sort of hands in this pot, but it talks about those primary relationships are sort of creating the way that we're going to show up in love and the way that we're going to sort of receive it and expect it and the relationships that we will gravitate towards. If we're not just sort of, if we're. Going on autopilot, right? We can, we, as we know now, I think everyone, our brain is plastic. We can create so much change in our brain. So this isn't something that we have to stay tuned to, but that's how we'll be sort of blown about the world until we do it. So there's four attachment styles, anxious, which is also kind of preoccupied, which I like better because people get really hung up on the word anxious and they're like, I feel anxiety, therefore I am anxious, which is not true. Avoidant or dismissive, disorganized or feel fearful avoidant. So it's a combination of the anxious and avoidant attachment and secure. And I think something that's really cool that I learned a couple of years ago is that our brain is actually already wired with secure attachment. And based on what we have in childhood, that secure attachment gets pruned back And we get, as I think of like anxious attachment as more like a offensive, you know, thing where that wiring gets put in. So then we'll like, veer more anxious or the... Defense wiring gets put more in and will be more avoidant and or if we're both like it's going in more but that secure wiring is already there in the brain. So when we're working on becoming more secure we're just returning to what we always have been. I love that Amanda. Like to put a quick pin in this, I was actually talking to someone recently about attachment styles and they said that they were in like an intro to Psych 101 and the class was like introduced to what attachment theory was And everybody, the professor said that everybody in the class, like you could see them like almost kind of analyzing themselves mid lecture and like all this discouragement kind of across their faces. And he was like, hey, hey, hey, hold up. I'm noticing you guys look really discouraged. Like you can change this. Like what you just said, like your brain is malleable. You started at secure. Like so just to kind of start in this conversation, you know, as we dissect more things, just know that this is not a fixed concept. Well, and I think as I've worked with people on their attachments, I think there's this. Sort of association with being secure and what that means. And that I think there's this assumption that people have that if you're secure, that means you won't be affected by things like you won't be disappointed if you get rejected in a relationship. It was like, cool, breezy, like whatever, bye. You just won't have feeling. You won't ever make a mistake, right? You'll just suddenly be perfect, right? Which is all our fucking wounding, which is all that fear. And it does not mean that at all. As you get closer to earn secure, which researchers and research says in order to actually have the title earned secure, we need to be in a securely bonded relationship. And I think they say for like eight years, I think there's a ton of work that you can do as an individual to get closer to that. And then as you get into that, like securely bonded relationship, that will like take you you over the finish line. But I still think there's work to be done individually. But actually being secure means that you understand. There is going to be relationships that don't work out, that you're going to get rejected. And that's okay, that you will feel disappointment, sadness, heartbreak, pain, and you will have a willingness, an openness to feeling those things and not making them mean that you aren't worthy of love. That's what secure is. Secure is I wanna explore something that feels worthwhile to explore romantically. And if it turns out to not be worth my while, I will walk away and I won't make it about me. So I won't stay and I won't beg to make it work because that's about me and my lack of worth. I will understand that that's a bummer and I will feel my feelings about it, but ultimately I can walk away. Yes. Right. But there is going to be like a secure person doesn't mean they just find someone so easily and they're just like in a long-term relationship forever. And it's like, boom, like secure people also have to date and like find someone and find people they don't like and people don't like them. I want to say that because I hear this assumption of like, well, but this is happening. So I might have so much more work to do. And I'm like, no, that's fucking part of it. The only piece you're missing is you're still associating it with your worth. You're still making it mean something about you. And it just doesn't. It just doesn't. You are allowed, of course, to explore. That's part of it. You're here to learn. You're here to grow. Relationships help us do that. They're our biggest teachers. They're our biggest mirror. The work really doubles when we get into a relationship. Yes, I actually really am happy you brought that up because that is a common misconception of secure slash earned secure. And I feel like a piece of it too is like this, two things here. One, it's almost like this acceptance that no one and not one thing is always gonna be perfect. It's kind of like accepting that. Like it's acceptance for the fact that things do change And things aren't going to be crystal clear. And in a way, I almost see it as a rebound rate. You can still feel your feelings, but it's like you're going to return to your baseline. You're not going to make meaning of it. And if you do make meaning of it, and you have a human moment, because that's OK. That's OK. You rebound from that. You catch that. Perfect way to say it. There is just a quicker rebound rate. And that's what I've noticed as I've gotten closer and closer to earn secure. And again, I can't fully take that title until Zach and I have been together for eight years, but I feel leaps and bounds more secure than when I was even like 33, just so much more secure now. And I noticed that rebound rate. Like right before I met Zach, I met someone on a road trip and. We connected and he was like, he lived in Colorado, but he was like, well, you know what? Like I'll come to New York before you leave and like, let's see if something's here. And I was like, all right, why not? That seems worthwhile. He was like, we had similar interests. He seemed cool. So I was like, sure. And it was not something that there was not something there. And we both realized that. And when we broke it off, it was like, well, that's disappointing. It's disappointing when something doesn't work out. But I was like, but you know what? I did, what I'm supposed to do or like how I want to approach things. I explore something that seemed worthwhile and it's not for me. And so I'm walking away. It has nothing to do with me. And I felt like so good. Like I was disappointed for like a day and then it was like, cool, fine. And that, to witness that inside myself versus, oh God, when I've held onto exes for like fucking years, like years, and been like, no, but I can't. And like making it all about me and like chasing them and all of this stuff, it was just like, fucking wow, like that's the work. And like, woof, I'm like so happy to be here. Man, feels good. Like that swam, that little swimming through that ocean was worth it and very happy to be on like the other side of the shore. So. It's not about perfection, right? Like perfection comes from the insecurity, the idea that we need to pursue that in any way, that we need to be that in any way, that our partner needs to be that in any way, right? That's still coming from the insecurity and the wounding. I see. So for you, what was your attachment style before you entered this more secure space? Oh, very, very anxious. So within attachment, it's on a spectrum, right? You're not just one thing. We're all going to have things that we are more dismissive of and things that we're more preoccupied with. And there is a spectrum, right? It's not super fixed. It's not super black and white. And so I think it's important to recognize that. I think our attachment, really, the way we want to look at it is based on the way that we show up in romantic situations. But we can look at it for how we show up at work, we show up in friendships, how we show up in family relationships, and that still affects us too, right? And we can be sort of different ways in all of those situations. And that's part of just being a complex, multidimensional human. But I would say I was very anxious across the board. And I think there's even intensity levels within the attachment. I think that there can be like someone who skews more avoidant and they're like really high up on the avoidant list. And then there's someone who skews more avoidant, but it's like a little bit lower and it's not as intense for them and it's really based on everybody's experience and their particular woundings and trauma that they've experienced. But I was very, very, very anxious and very much across the board. I come from a lot of trauma in my childhood. I mean, I was anxious in not only romantic relationships. I was anxious at work. I was anxious in friendships. I was anxious in and family relationships. So I was just like, anxious. Like, sorry. Like, very. Very. I get it. I know. So sending so much love to little Amanda right now. I know. She's a sweet little girl, but she got me here. So like, God bless her. God bless her. So what – like how did that present for you? Like what would you say was the most – like if someone's listening and they're like, how do I know if I'm anxious? So to me, understanding being anxious is really about what created it, is we had a caregiver or caregivers who were inconsistent with their attunement with us when we were kids. So. Sometimes in sometimes to doubt and that inconsistency creates insecurity right that like will i get my needs that fear right so there's a big big preoccupation and also someone who has more anxious attachment. They weren't able to regulate with their parents consistently right so that created that dysregulation inside of them so they have this very intense drive to have someone regulate and they don't know how to sell suits. Right? So constantly seeking reassurance and not able to get there themselves. So in relationship, that looks like a constant need for reassurance, hyper-village, and so very tuned into any sort of shift in anyone's feelings, mood, and. Taking that extremely personally. So if you notice you're on a third date with someone that's been going really well and had great banter, and you're like, all this, you know, we're like really hitting it off." And you notice that like towards the end of the date, their mood shifts and they like become a little quiet. That will immediately activate someone who is more anxious and isn't doing a lot of work to be like, holy shit, it's about me. They're going to, you know, they're going to end this. I'm the worst, da, da, da, da. But based on what work they've done, they might be able to communicate that, or they will seek reassurance through other ways of like kind of like poking, pushing for a fight, creating drama, even pulling away really dramatically in order to get that person to come towards them. And then if they don't like rushing forward. So again, just like kind of creating that drama, a sense chaos, if they're used to that, that was definitely the way that I like to do things. And or just asking for a lot of reassurance. This is so embarrassing. I had this college boyfriend that I was really obsessed with and he was awful. He was very, very, very avoidant and very emotionally unavailable. And we were in a relationship and I hung out with him maybe once a week. He lived five minutes from me. He would have people over and not invite me. He and all his friends would have... His friends would have their girlfriends over to like do activities together he would invite me. I was his girlfriend. I'm sure he had other girlfriends that he would have been inviting over. Anyway, And when we broke up, I would show up. Like where I thought he would be and be like, Oh my God, so crazy that I ran into here. Like I was just like pursuing really hard. Someone who skews more anxious than like is going to pursue really hard and like chase really hard, which also meant for me that when I was doing that, I was like chasing someone, chasing someone, chasing someone, chasing someone. And then once I got them, I would be satisfied for like, like six months, maybe max. And then I would be like, well, I'm bored now because now this is like stabilized and you're showing up for me more. And now that is not what's in my pattern of love. I need that inconsistency in order to feel love is there. So when it's stable, I'm suddenly like, not so much. And then I would bail. So it's a lot of that. And that's how it showed up for me. Wow. For me, I think I am more of a recovering avoidant. Hmm, yeah. Okay. So let's talk about that before you go into yours. So avoidant means you had, caregivers where there was neglect. That sounds like a big word, right? But it can be emotional neglect, physical neglect. If it's emotional and physical, that's going to be someone who is going to go more avoidant, right, on the spectrum. And, or you were responsible for someone's emotions, one of the caregivers. And so you learned how to suppress yours. Intimacy was really unsafe, there was a lot of critical, someone was really critical or. An apparent had like really intense outbursts, a lot of emotion, even if it was like worry, that can feel really overwhelming and so you shut down. Okay, what was your experience? Yes, 100%. So yeah, no, it's really interesting. And it's funny because I feel like I've, I like that you mentioned how like attachment styles can play out in different relationship dynamics, but... It's funny, I was about to say, I think my avoidant attachment style has played out more in friendships, but up until my now very secure, healthy relationship, I'm like, I think avoidant also obviously played out in those relationship dynamics too. You guys have been together for a long time, no? Yeah, we've been together for six years. Yeah, so I would say you're very well on your way, or insecure. Yes, totally. And I feel that way too. You guys will know, listening to this, you just have that, you have a deeper knowing around where you're at with it. And it's not a good or bad thing. It's just take note of it, right? Check in, tune in, see where you're at. I'm gonna drop a resource for how to explore this more for yourself on your own. But yeah, so I definitely come from the classic people-pleasing background. I always was like, I'm gonna be the low-maintenance, easygoing person. Spoken like a true avoidant. Yep. I have no needs. I have no needs. Be good. I'm chill, and I'm fine. Also, any time I speak to an avoidant, and we're talking about their childhood, first response is always, I had a great childhood. Yes. And I'm like, OK, let's dig a little deeper. Let's dig a little deeper. I know. So it's so funny, but I come from parental units who are each avoidants. And then so they'll say that, and then I was raised around that, and then was bred into it kind of too and then had my own, of course, everybody has their own traumas, whether they're micro, whether they're macro, like around just neglect and different little things. Essentially, yeah, I was just like, okay, I'm going to be, I'm low maintenance, I'm. Easy. In a way, I feel like it was like, by the time I remember like entering high school and like college, like it's cool to be the chill girl who like doesn't have needs. Like, and I am fine. I am fine. I remember my first boyfriend. I literally like he broke up with me, he broke my heart, and I literally cut him off the next day. I didn't even talk. I didn't have a conversation. I remember saying, I remember sending a text to him just being like. I'm so shocked, like, or something, and then just being like, I'll leave you alone now. Like, I literally was like, hands off the wheel. It was so crazy that I... Okay, so this is the difference. And everyone, this is where everyone gets tripped up, right? So they'll be like, I'm anxious, right? And then I'm talking to them like, I'm reading you more avoidant. And also based on like, what you're telling me about your childhood. And here's why. Both people will feel anxiety. Both people will feel like, oh my god, I'm unsure sure if that person likes me and like, cool. The avoidant, you will never fucking know. Yeah. Cool is a cucumber on the outside. Will not express that. The one who skews more anxious, you will know. You will know. Yeah. They will make that film because they'll be texting you a thousand times like, are you mad? Are you okay? Like, I'm going to leave you alone now. And then two hours later, sending you like a song, you know, and be like, hey, how are you? Can I come over? Like very, just not able to keep that because they're trying to self-regulate with that co-regulation of someone who's unavailable. But someone who is avoidant is you were... There was a premium placed on being self-sufficient. Self-sufficiency was how you got attention. And so you understand that if I don't have needs, if I don't show emotions, usually emotions aren't very well discussed, dealt with, prioritized in those childhoods. And so it's like suppress, suppress, express. And so you can have that like cool cut off, you know, feeling and like walk away inside you might be feeling such turmoil. Yes, but that will not be expressed. I will not know. And that's literally like was the story of my life. I like there was no room like in my household. There was really like not room for a lot of diverse emotions. There was room for like sadness if you got like a bad grade, but there wasn't room for like a lot at all. So I learned at a very young age that those were just not appropriate. I buried those feelings, like to the point where I was like not in touch with a lot of those feelings. Totally. and... I also just like checked out and like kept a lot to myself. So classic avoidant right there. For sure. And I remember just to wrap up this story to the point where, so this boyfriend breaks up with me. I'm like, I will leave you alone. Literally never spoke a word. Cool cucumber. Yeah, cool cucumber. Really was going through it and had like one of my best friends at the time in like a gym class. And I remember she was going through a breakup. So we would like always vent about it. This girl who I vented to about this relationship ended up behind my back, starting to see my ex-boyfriend immediately. And you know what I continued? Cool as a cucumber. I was just like, oh, what? But it was crazy. Like, that was such a crazy scenario. Also, just side note, I am such a girl's girl. Like, that is so against girl code. Never, never. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. There is no one worth dicking over one of my friends for. No, certainly not. And I think obviously that like changed the relationship dynamic. Of course. I would have never like that close with her as I was at that point. But yeah, 100%. Also behind the back, like that's shitty. Oh yeah. I'm sorry. It was crazy. But anyways, so yeah, that's just a little bit about what attachment styles look like. And I actually think it's great that we're different ones to kind of explain. Totally. Yeah, which is funny because I am only attracted to women who are avoided. All my girlfriends have been avoided, literally. Like any best friends I've had, avoided. I've had to really, like, once I sort of figured it out with men, I was like, let's not get look at my friendships, man, because, whoa. But also within my friendships, I was super anxious and hypervigilant with them, right? And so, and I wanted to, I was very codependent and I wanted to be like enmeshed with my girlfriends. And so creating healthy friendships has also been a journey for me of like, okay, I don't need to be like, in order to have a friend. You don't need to talk every single day, 24-7, and be obsessed with one another. You can't maintain that. And it's also unnecessary. And I've learned how to self-regulate, even inside of friendships, and how to have a very healthy, or sorry, interdependency inside of female friendships, too. But that meant I had to shift a lot of my behaviors in friendship, and I had to either downshift a lot of friendships and or let go of friendships to get into a healthier place with them. Yeah, I'm curious to know, because everyone who I talk to who listens to Quickies or either just knows you or all the above, is like, I'm obsessed with Amanda. She is the queen of boundaries. And I feel like that is like, Not always. I think you are, though. You can give yourself a little. Yes, but not, I am now, but I haven't always been. Yes, yes. I would say now, yeah, I'm great with boundaries. I know what I want. And even when I'm not, like. If I'm like, oh, that's a boundary for me and I'm not honoring it, then I'm very quick to be like, oh, I got to rectify that. Actually, that doesn't work for me. And I think it's based on understanding my worth now and being more secure. So I am more than fucking willing to disappoint someone else. I'm okay with that. I'm okay if someone doesn't like me. That's okay with me. You don't have to like me. I'm going to take care of me. And not to the detriment, I'm not a a narcissist, but of like my relationships. But I just, I'm not willing to be codependent anymore. Yes. Yes. Yeah. You're like, I've lived in that long enough where transition. Did the work, peeled her off the t-shirt, done. See you later. Totally. Yeah. And so I think if anybody's listening, like what are your advice, like what your position was being like more anxious or like me more avoidant, like what are steps that we can begin to take? Where do we start to get toward? Yeah. Honestly, if you're more anxious, I highly recommend SLAA, which is Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, not because you're a love addict or a sex addict, but usually you're going to have a lot in common with one or both. And if you're a woman, go to women's only meetings. I cannot recommend that enough for women identifying. Go to women's only because we don't need to have you around other people that are sex addicts. Let's just go in and be surrounded with people that are similar to us. But it's really helpful for just looking at it at that blend and understanding how that wounding can create this more addiction-y. I was certainly a love addict, certainly a love addict. And going to SLAA really was helpful for my growth and for my healing. I think that's huge. I also think while. There's so much work to do before we're in a relationship or in our process to getting a relationship. I don't think you have to be healed perfectly. There's no such thing. In order to call in love, it's just being aware and understanding and learning and growing through that experience. But I think we need to be working with someone. So whether that's a coach like, hello, hi, I work with people on this every day, or a therapist you love. We do need that third party to help guide us through because we need... There's going to be black holes in our brain that we can't get out of on our own. And we need help to reframe that. We need to be doing subconscious work to change the patterning. We just have to look at... It's peeling back those wounds all the time. It's understanding when you're activated, understanding what that feels like in your body, which means your nervous system is dysregulated. It's learning how to regulate your nervous system through that experience so you have more access to your tools and for your adult self. Because when we get activated, we are a five-year-old. We are like whatever age we think of ourselves as our inner child. I have a perfect example of that. So when I was dating this guy, we went on three days, but this was like, when was this? I was like. 32. He was a drummer, very cute, very cute. And like first date, we didn't even, yeah, like I was just like hooked, like upon like first glance, I was like, I'm in. And I was like activated like from go. He told me on our second date, we got in to his car and he was going to drive me home. And he had like a pile of rose quartz in his cup holder. And he was like very spiritual and like, which was like, so, you know, just like handy to like lost to a flame, like bad boy, but spiritual, like get me over there. And he had like a pile of rose quartz and he, I was I was like, oh my God, like rose quartz, how cute. You know, looking for love. And he was like, very seriously, I am not looking for love. And I was like... What? Then what are we doing here? And he was like, I just got out of a really long-term relationship like six months ago. So I'm really not ready for anything, but I want to see where this goes. You're like, do you? And I was like, mm-hmm. And so obviously he was not ready for that. And we had an experience where we, our third date, I still went out with him again. He was late to the date. And then he really just wanted to have dinner and just go back to my place to do stuff. And we made out and did some light things, no sex, because I knew emotionally I could not handle that. He was just there for that. There was no intimacy. And I tried to create emotional intimacy and he shut me down so hard, which was so painful. And so in that moment, I knew I was like, I had done enough work to be like, I can't do this. You don't want what I want. And this is only going to lead to heartache for me. And I'm just not willing to go there and I broke off with him. But yay, okay, here's where the anxiousness comes in. Because immediately after, I changed my tune. I texted him two days later and was like, hey, do you want to go to this meditation thing with me? Okay. So I asked, he says, yes, he'll go the next week. The next week, he's like, I'll meet you there. And I am there, I don't see him until halfway through the thing. And I turn around, I'm like, okay, how are you? I go over to him at the end, I'm like, thank you, I'm so happy that you're coming here. And I'm I'm assuming we're going to like go out after. And he's like, yeah, cool. Good to see you, bye. I have to get back to my date. He fucking brought a date. And instantly, instantly, I am like so activated, like beyond activated, just off the planet activated. I become my five-year-old self. It was like, he was my unavailable dad. I went into the room where he was talking to the fucking chick that he brought. And I like tapped on the shoulder and I was like, can you please come talk to me for a minute? I'm like fidgeting like a fighter. Like I was just like watching myself do this, like sort of outside my body, like, what are we doing? Why don't we do that? Don't do that. Don't do that. And like sat him down and said, I wanted to keep seeing him. Like just what? Just very out of my body. Just again, this little girl, like, please, please, please. Daddy, love me, love me, love me, love me, love me. Yeah, I'll say anything. I'll do anything. I'll say anything. I'll do anything. I'll say anything. And I was like fidgeting the entire, like, I just was like, I walked out and I was like, whoa, I just like really witnessed my inner child take over. And that was fucking wild. I obviously did not keep seeing him. He did not follow up. I think he was like... Whoa, what's going on? Like I'm clearly like playing you and I'm dating on another date. And like, you asked me here, like, why do you want to hang out with me again? So thank God nothing happened. But that was such a experience for me to witness. Like, wow, when you're activated, that inner child is taking over and you don't have access to that adult self that has the tools and like the understanding to be like, this hurts, but we're okay. I was very much like into like that wounding part. So it's important to understand what that's like for you. And it's important to understand how to regulate your nervous system through that experience. So you can get out of the inner child wounding and get to your adult worth because from that adult worth, you can make better choices. They're going to suck. They're not going to feel good, right? It's not going to feel great, but that's okay. Your adult self can handle that and process that and feel that and like move through it. But that takes a lot of practice and a lot of work. And you're going to need guidance through that of someone who, you know, a professional of some sort. So therapist coach, I highly recommend finding someone that you love and working with with them again. I'm available. Yeah, no, I'm assessed. And you just explained that so well. And I really do agree like it is not something that like, is a quick fix per se. Like, it's, it's, it takes time. It takes years, but it's, it's all like one foot in. Front of the other, like, so not to explain it in an overwhelming way either like, oh, my God, I have to commit so much time. But it's like at the end of the day, like this This is just what doing the work looks like over a lifetime, right? Like it's not – it doesn't just like end at one point in time. And you know, the reframe that I use for clients when they start getting into like, but like I'm this age and I'm like, look, time is going to pass God willing, right? Like knock on wood, you're still going to be here next year. So do you want to pass time and repeat patterns or do you want to pass time and break them? That's your choice, but you can't control time. Totally. It's never too late. It's never too late. And it's never too late because your brain is always available to change, right? It's just understanding how to change it. and we change it through reprogramming our subconscious. Right. And we do that through hypnosis. So, you know, the brand that I used to work for a TBM, they have their own self hypnosis that they lead you through. I work with clients on hypnosis in session and it's also then, you know, doing, it's watching yourself do things and like learning through those experiences and growing through those experiences. It is very much kind of step by step by step, right. It's, you're going to learn along the way. And sometimes we need to to repeat a lesson, right? Like when that example that I just gave, I had already dated so many unavailable people, right? And I knew enough to break it off the third date, but I was still working through an attachment that made me go back and have that experience, which I'm super grateful for, right? And I also would pursue a couple more unavailable guys after that, right? It takes time to really create that change and create that change in the brain because it just needs to be reinforced because that's our attachment starts six months, right? So it's like in the deepest recesses of our brain. And yes, we have that secure wiring that we start with, but it gets pruned back, right? And we have to like re-put in those neurons together. We have to make them wire together over and over and over again for that to get strong so that we have a new opportunity to be like, ah, I see that you're unavailable. Bye. Right? Like once I became more secure. I remember I was online dating at the time and connected with someone. Very cool. Seemed aligned and sort of like in the groove of what I was looking for, but I was like, wait, he sounds familiar. I was like, I feel like I know him. And I was like, oh my God, I do. This is a friend of my friend. And so I reached out and I was like, wait a second, wasn't he engaged? And she was like, yeah. So I was like, hey, actually we have a mutual friend. You were engaged, right? And he was like, and I was like, when? He was like, I don't want to tell you because you'll run away. And I was like, okay, that's enough. I don't even need you to tell me anymore. But like, I think that you should. And he was like three months ago and I was like, Bye. Bye. And he was like, no, no. And I was like, honey, no, there is no ounce of me. That needs to explore this. I know where you're at, and it's not anywhere that I want to be. See you later. But like, God, the old younger me would have been like, okay, sure, let's explore that. But I had done it enough times where I was like, I don't need to. Bye. See you. You're an angel to me. And felt really good about that. One of my therapists explained it to me when I was. Rewiring. You can do this in so many different capacities, but I was rewiring some anxious thoughts and he was just like, okay. He painted like a really great picture for me that I really love. He was like, so right now you're having like a thought loop that is putting you on like a super highway that like your brain has created a neural pathway that's like a seven-lane highway, like wide. Like it is deep, it is rooted, it is like established and he was like, we need to like veer the vehicle down or find a footpath that's going to get us, but we need to downsize the. Size of the superhighway, basically. He was like, we're making a new neural pathway. It's going to take time. You have to forage through. You have to cut the branches. You have to make a dirt path. Then you can pave the path. And then you have to cut all of the fucking thorns off of it. Yeah. Like it's tough. It's tough. But it will take. Yeah. But it's like, it's so much repetition. Like the way that I think of it, there's sort of like three stages, right? It's like first stage, you're kind of like, something is off. And then the second stage, you're like, I know what's off and I'm watching myself fucking doing it. And it sucks. And then stage three is when you're like, okay, I see that pattern, but I also have this other thing available to me and I can go down that road. And the, the valley between step two and step three is very large. And that is step two is the hardest because you're like, I'm just watching myself do this. I'm like, wow. But that is how we learn. The more consciousness and awareness we can bring to it, right? When I was activated and so activated and watching myself beg this person, not a proud moment of mine, was like, wow, but thank God I had that. It taught me so much. I grew so much from that experience. And it was really ultimately for me, even though in the moment was like cringe. Yeah. It was sucky in the moment, but you're like, oh, thank God that happened. Exactly. With like the awareness that I currently have now, because you're like, okay, that was very clear. Yeah. I was like, wow, I just saw that entire process. Well, that's how intense that is. Okay. And I was able to step outside of it a little bit to like witness it. And that was really helpful too, because then I could really learn how to regulate my nervous system through that. Yeah. I would say too, I agree with everything you just said, especially coming from an anxious um, attachment perspective, I would say probably similar for avoidant, like in terms of like therapy route and rewiring path. Oh yeah. For everybody. That's like what you need, um, in order to help get there again, there's like work you can do on your own. Sure, sure, sure. But we are going to need guidance and through that process and people who are, you know, who skew more avoidant, you know, you know, this it's, I think the main thing that we're learning to do in that instance is reconnecting to ourselves first and foremost, how to build that deep intimacy with us. How to understand what our emotions are, how to understand that it's okay and safe to feel them and to express them. That intimacy, we have to unlearn that intimacy is unsafe and we have to learn that intimacy is safe. And we need to learn that first with us. Then we can start to extend that out to the current relationships that we have. And we need to learn how we can speak our needs. We don't have to diminish. We don't have to be chill. We don't have to be go with the flow. We don't have to be like the cool cucumber. We can have a need and it can be expressed and someone cannot be okay with it. And that's okay. There's a lot of codependency that's in place for avoidance too. And it's learning how to get into that interdependency. But so much of that work is becoming more emotionally available. Same with insecure, anxious. It's that same... They're also emotionally unavailable. They're not able to access that deeper intimacy either. It just looks a little differently and feels a little differently, but it's still that same work, right? And it's recognizing. I think a lot of times avoidance will stay in things, like stay in a relationship for much, much longer, because they're just like, well, I don't want to hurt them. Well, I don't really, it's fine. Like a need, it doesn't matter. Like it's good, whatever. And they'll like stay inside things once they get in for like a longer period of time. And so part of avoidance work, if like that is your story, is learning how to say no and like trust that no, right? Avoidance will think saying no is avoided. It's fucking not. You get to trust your no's just as much as anyone else. And it's And it's even more important for you because you will stay inside of something for so much longer. You Yes, totally. It's also that work. Yeah, 100%. It's funny looking back at certain relationship dynamics, and I feel like I should have left so much sooner. Totally. And it's because I was okay with just being that cool cucumber and playing neutral, but I didn't realize how much harm it was causing me. And I think a big thing that has been part of getting into my earned secure has been this journey of which, like I said a bit ago, like you are such a boundary queen, has been for me learning like what that means for me. And literally down to the point of like, I used to have people, if you guys tuned into my episode on like from rock bottom to up level, one of the most recent episodes, I talk about how a lot of people used to make decisions for me. And I used to be the person who'd be like, I don't really know like. And I think I leaned into it too, cause like I'm a Libra and I was like, they're indecisive, whatever, and I just like took the character on. So for me, a lot of like coming into my own secure has been like, well, what do I actually want to do? Like before, like and something as simple you guys as like if someone's like, do you want to go out Friday night? I used to always just be like, yeah, sure, like and like say yes before I actually meant it and now it's more just like, wait, what do I want to do Friday night? Actually, I have no interest in going out. Like I want to make pizza at home and put on like rom-com mom and like have a night in. And so it's, I think a good tip for everybody regardless is just like when you can come more into your autonomy of like what is your hell yes. What does that mean for you? What does it feel like for you? And like you just said the no, like what is your hell no feel like? And it's not avoidant to just know what your hell no is. It's just the nose. Trust your nose. Yeah. That's also how you get to know your yeses Mm-hmm. Totally. Is when you really can trust those notes. I love this and I'm gonna be having an ebook on my website coming soon-ish and also an attachment theory and also an attachment theory workshop coming soon-ish. I don't know exactly when, but keep a look out for that. Yes, we will. If by chance they're ready by the time this episode airs, they will be in the show notes. If they're not, we will keep you guys very closely looped with like Amanda's happenings, because she is a free bird. And just on her relationship coach, coaching all day, coaching all day. The other thing too, which is this perfect, because I actually think we can eventually do a part two. I'm actually curious to talk about like when you bring in now another relationship, right? Sure. I think this could be a really interesting thing to like, how do two people who are working toward insecure, interact together? What if they're not. So I think this could be kind of a nice part two. And then the other thing I wanted to share with you guys was that I found this amazing book. It's the attachment theory workbook. This is probably who you were thinking of when you were like citing all of the people who do work in the attachment theory space. And you were like, there's a couple more psychologists. It's Annie Chen. Not who I'm thinking of, but I love this. I love this workbook and I give it to literally all my clients working through something. It's so good. I'm actually so happy to know that that you do that because to give everybody just like a quick overview, it just. From a very high level explains what each attachment style is. And it's kind of a workbook to work through different prompts. And as you go through it, you learn about attachment styles. You learn about like the spectrum of them. Yeah, you learn about yourself and your experience with it. Yeah, totally. So very, very good resource. I'll link it in the show notes as well. Yeah, it's awesome. Thank you. Thank you, Amanda. I'm always like, I love just tapping into your wealth of knowledge. It's so fun chatting with you. It's so fun. Yeah. I mean, attachment theory is my most favorite topic. I love diving into it because it's just the root of it all. And the sort of therapy model that I'm going to pursue once I'm licensed is emotional focus therapy. I really have to pee, so it's hard for me to concentrate at the moment. And it's based on attachment theory. So that is, I'm so excited. And it's like for couples specifically. That's like what Sue Johnson originally created it for. She now is going into individual, but it's mostly for couples. And I'm just like, yeah, man, cause that's what the issue is with any relationship. It's an attachment thing. And like, it's just understanding what that is. Totally. I love it. Well, stay tuned everybody. And yeah, thanks for tuning in. If you love this episode, share it with a friend, text it to them, share it with your bestie, leave a review or feel free to even give us a five star on Apple, Spotify, wherever you tune in. So yeah, thanks for listening. Thanks guys. All right, bye everybody. Bye. Music. Love this episode as much as we did making it. If you have any feedback, questions, or suggestions for future episodes, or if you just want to chat, don't hesitate to reach out to us at The Bedside on Instagram and TheBedside.co online. You can also find us at ByTheBedside on TikTok. To stay updated on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform, and if you found this episode valuable, I would so greatly appreciate if you could leave us a rating, a review, text it to a friend, share it to your Instagram stories. Let's get this message out there loud and clear. Until next time, thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week! Music.