Bedside

Open Relationships with Rachel Wright

• Bedside • Season 1 • Episode 123

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To open a relationship or not, THAT IS the question! 👀👭 Today on Bedside I'm joined by sex educator and therapist Rachel Wright to chat all things non-monogamy! We unpack what it *actually* means to be non-monogamous (hint: it's an orientation) and we highlight the importance of crafting clear relationship agreements. Whether you're already in an open relationship, are curious to know more, or are happily monogamous there's something for everyone in this convo. Oh, and if you're like me and wondering what it's like to navigate jealousy and go on new dates with respect for an existing partner,  we talk about that too! 

On this episode we cover

  • 0:11:23 Exploring Non-Monogamy
  • 0:15:17 Non-Monogamy as an Orientation and Coming Out Experience
  • 0:18:15 The Importance of Agreements in Non-Monogamous Relationships
  • 0:25:29 Non-Monogamy as an Identity: Choice vs. Not Choice
  • 0:29:21 Codependency
  • 0:34:45 Navigating Jealousy in Non-Monogamous Relationships
  • 0:37:47 Overcoming Insecurities in Non-Monogamous Relationships
  • 0:44:00 Emotional Intelligence and Regulation in Non-Monogamous Relationships

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Music. Hello everybody and welcome back to the bedside podcast. I hope we are doing well. I hope we are enjoying the full swing of summer. I am very excited to introduce you to my guest today, Rachel Wright, who is a psychotherapist and recognized as one of the freshest voices on modern relationships, mental health, and sex. She's got her master's in clinical psychology and has worked with thousands of humans worldwide, helping them to scream less and screw more. I am so excited to be in conversation with Rachel today. Our topic that we are diving deep into is around non-monogamy. I've never recorded an episode that dives deep into this topic. But I actually think it is so important to have conversations like this, and Rachel is the perfect guest I could have had on this show to explain it in layman's terms, explain her experience with it, and kind of break down a lot of the taboos that come with non-monogamy, come with polyamory, and all of the things that people turn a blind eye to, not want to hear a lot about, or just have a lot of judgment and prejudice around. So we break down what non-monogamy means to Rachel, the academic terms of it, and what it looks like in real life. We also cover some of the misconceptions around non-monogamy, how really the importance of boundary setting plays into all relationships, not just non-monogamous, and Rachel also explains a really great concept that I had never heard of around relational agreements and creating relationship agreements with people that you are in relationship with, which you'll hear so much more about Rachel's process with this, what it means, what it looks like, and I find it, as you'll hear on the show today, so beneficial across all different types of relationship dynamics, not just non-monogamous. So stay tuned. I'm really excited for you to hear this one. It's a really, really good and thought-provoking episode. And like I said, I'm so happy I had Rachel on to share more about it. With that said, let's welcome Rachel Wright to the Bedside Podcast. Music. Hi, Rachel. Welcome to the Bedside podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. And we recently recorded on your show. And then I was like, you need to come on that side. I have to have you on. So welcome. Very warm welcome to you. Thank you. I feel it. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited. We connected. Just yeah, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. I'm so happy we connected to. So today I figured we could have a really great conversation around non-monogamy and just the way that people have relationships with one another. Because obviously there's such a one way that society tells us that we should be in relationship with people. And I feel like you're such a great living and breathing example of what different options can look like. But I guess before we get into kind of like the meat of this topic, I want to just get like a high level understanding of what your upbringing and dialogue around sex and relationships looked like for you when you were growing up, whether that was in school, whether that was like parental units or like guardians, what was the modeling you received? Oh man, you know, my parents really did the best that they possibly could with the tools that they had, truly. It was a really, looking back on it, I obviously didn't have this language then, but looking back on it, it was a very sex positive home. Was a very clear difference between like nudity and sexuality. They're just openly discussed, of course, in age-appropriate ways. And I was a kid that asked a lot of questions. Shocking, I know. And so, you know, my mom specifically would answer questions really at age-appropriate times. And then she put me into a private sex ed class when I was nine, which I'm so grateful for, because I got my period later that year. And so had I not gone, I would have like probably thought I was dying. You know, like it was it was emotional enough and scary enough as it was. And I still knew what was happening. So it was very, very, very grateful. Still grateful to her for that. Wait. So what is just not to interject, but what exactly is a private sex ed class? Like, was it just like an outside curriculum? Yum! OK, yep. It was a woman. It was through my synagogue growing up, which is so interesting. It wasn't like a religious affiliated thing, but it was like, hey, this sex educator is teaching using our classrooms and any moms that want to sign up. It was like a mommy and me type. Oh, cool situation. So we we went and it was, you know, very high level. The things that I I remember most from it were like what intercourse was. And then we watched a video of a birth and we talked a lot about puberty and things like that. So it was not like sex for pleasure. It was not. I think they mentioned oral sex, but like certainly wasn't the takeaway. So that that was great. And then in school, you know, years later, in like seventh grade, I believe I got terrible sex ed, which like I knew all of the things already from when I was at nine. So it was just like, yeah, doesn't everyone know this? Oh, no one knows this. OK, cool. And that was it. Like, that was it. It really then we didn't talk about it much again until I was having sex. And, you know, at that point, I didn't really want to talk about it. Also, though, like great for you for being then in like sex ed yet again and being like, OK, I can poke holes in this. It's like... I've already gotten the 411, and I don't think that's right," or whatever it was. Yeah. And I was so confused. I was like, why are they separating us by gender? Like, why are we doing that? It was boys and girls. And I wonder if they still do this. They probably do, which is shitty. They probably do, yeah. I wonder what they do at more forward-thinking schools. I'm curious now. Anyway, I remember the the boys coming out of their class, like talking about different things than we were learning. And I was like, what, like, why aren't they learning about periods? And why aren't we learning about erections? Like, I didn't understand why there was this disconnect. So that was the sex piece. And, you know, relationships were not like an active topic of conversation. But in the way that my parents answered a lot of my questions, we often talked about relationships. I was very curious, like if they had dated people before each other, especially once I learned what sex was, I was like, did you guys do this with other people besides each other? And I remember my mom being like, you're nine. Like, how do I answer this? Like her face was just like, oh, it's so innocent to like. I remember once asking my dad in the car, like I was so young. I was like, when was the first time you had sex? And he was like, It's not something you would ever ask your father if you were like, of age. He was like, I don't even know what to do with this question. You know what I mean? Yeah. Actually, I think he gave me an age. I think he was like, um, maybe like 16. Yeah. My mom was great. I remember she told me, cause I asked her right after the night that we learned what intercourse was, like, have you done this? And she told me that she did with one other person, which. Is untrue for the for the whatever record is out there. Not true. But it was a perfect answer for my age because it wasn't so so much of a lie. Like, absolutely not. No, we were married. You know, I didn't get that spiel. And this other person I already knew. And I knew that this was like her her other love of her life. Oh, wait, that's dishy. You knew about this other love? Yeah, yeah, he had passed away. And so he was a name. He was a family friend of my mom's like family of origin growing up. And he was even still in her life before he passed once she was with my dad and like she had actively chosen to not be with him anymore, but was really, really in love. And so when he passed away, like we knew who he was and that they. Had dated and like, you know, he wanted to marry her, but my mom didn't want like, it was like a. Whole thing, which was great because like, I knew even again, like not explicitly, but I got the messaging of there's not just one person out there for you. Like you can have multiple loves, even if they're at the same time, even if they're not at the same time, like you can love more than one person, you can have sex with more than one person and like that doesn't change how special love and sex can be with one per- and again none of this was like explicitly stated like I'm saying it but that was the message that I got from it. So I thought she really nailed that answer and like it felt very even looking back it seems very age-appropriate. I would have called bullshit if she had said, you know, absolutely not. No, I know. I've never had sex with anybody else. I would have been like, liar, liar. Yeah. And I think, too, like, it's a great way of, again, in an age appropriate way, just allowing your kids to recognize like you're a human, too. You're a sexual being. We're all sexual beings. And like, that's OK. So in a way, I love all this great subliminal messaging you got. Good for you. Good. Yeah. I really I'm grateful. I love my mom. She's great. And like, I didn't ask my dad directly cause I was like embarrassed. I don't know. Yeah. You didn't do what I did. No, I, I kind of wish I had, I did when I got older and we had some interesting conversations, but, um. I, yeah, I didn't go to him at nine, which I I'm curious cause he would have fumbled. Real hard at that age. That's so funny. Yeah. I think like subconsciously I went to my dad because he's so much more of a direct, relaxed guy. I think I just was like, I don't know, maybe there was a part of me that knew I was just going to get a really straightforward answer without follow-up questions from him. We were just like, yeah, okay, moving on. It would have been a little bit more with my mom. Yeah. I hear that. Okay. Anyways, so jumping many, many timelines here, you've gotten this amazing modeling of relationships, you have this understanding that people can have many different loves, like you said, even at the same time. So what kind of got you to a place of wanting to explore non-monogamy? There are many definitions of it, but what does it kind of mean to you? Yeah. Yes. All of that. Yes. So it's an interesting thing because I learned what non-monogamy was in my master's program to become a therapist. That is when I learned like what it was, the actual definition of it, the different ways of potentially practicing it. But that was it. We didn't really talk about the history. We didn't talk about the fact that monogamy is like a white Christian colonization concept. That didn't come until very later, much, much, much later. But I learned enough to be able to identify that I identified with it. And soon after I learned what it was, academically speaking, I started dating the person who then became my husband, who's now my ex-husband, not having to do with nonmonogamy, just to be very clear, who I love very much. But anyway, we started dating, and on our very first date, I brought up this concept. I was like, you know, what do you think about this? And he was like, yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of not in my wiring to necessarily be with one person from now. We were like 23 years old, like from now until hopefully like 93 years old. That seems a bit intense. And I was like, right? I don't think I'm wired for it either. And we both agreed that we wanted to try monogamy for a bit to build our foundation and see if we were compatible and kind of do the, like, quote unquote, normal dating thing, the norm that was for us. We did, and then eventually got to a point where we were like, okay, like, want to do this thing? And we started practicing non-monogamy. And by this point, I had many clients that were non-monogamous. And so, again, I really understood a lot of this from. An academic and therapeutic perspective. I had been hearing about all these experiences, but I had never experienced them myself. So we started and soon after I found an old diary from high school and I reread a diary entry about how I was dating someone and really wanted to make out with this other person. And I didn't understand why I had to break up with the person I was dating in order to make out with this other person. And in the diary entry, it's like, I don't want to date this other person. I like, I just want to see what it's like to kiss them. But I don't want to break up with my partner. Right. But like, I'm going to be a slut if I don't. Totally. And then the end of the diary entry is like, maybe I'm not ready for a relationship. And It's so sad. I just want to like hug this young Rachel. Like I was describing that I'm I'm not monogamous. Yeah. Like and then there's so many more entries about like I don't understand why I can't like date two people at the same time. And, you know, I have so much love for people and I just want to like explore it. And then I realized I was bisexual and I was. Like, oh, my God, do I have to like pick a gender for the rest of my life? Like, ah. And you know, it was this kind of like big aha moment of not only did I like the concept academically and had had this conversation. I really had been wired like this my whole life. And once I acknowledged all of this, my life really changed. So much of my anxiety went away. I felt more present. I came into myself as a person and really, really, really felt like me. And I came out to my whole family as non-monogamous because I experience it as an orientation and not just a choice. And so that can lead us into the definition of non-monogamy, which is the practice of being with, romantically or sexually or platonically, more than one person at a time. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be actively doing it to be it, right? You can be in a non-monogamous relationship and not have any other partners. You can be in a non-monogamous relationship and swing, right? Like swinging, polyamory, uh, open relationship. All of these terms are all different types of non-monogamy, which is like the bigger umbrella term. And for anyone listening who's like, Oh, okay. So like our cheating and friendship, non-monogamy will depends on your definition because polyamory literally means many loves. And if you are someone who experiences like deep love for your friends, you actually like have experienced what it could feel like to be polyamorous. Mmm. Because you are loving multiple people. It's not the concept isn't so far away from us, right? Like it's not. And with friendship, it's interesting because societally, we're like, of course, you have so many friends. Like, of course, if you said, no, I'm good. I'm just going to have one. And like, I'm going to rely on them for all of my relational needs. We'd be like, what? Why? Yeah. And with romantic or sexual, it's the inverse. We're like, you're going to have more than one. That sounds so complicated. And you're like, you also have multiple relationships. So that's the thing with friendship. And then cheating. The biggest difference here is that cheating is not about the number of sexual partners that you have. Cheating is about breaking a relationship agreement. So in monogamy, the relationship agreement is we're not sleeping with other people. That's usually what it is. So if you go out and sleep with someone else. That's about the breaking of the agreement. You cheated. It's not that you had another partner. It's because that is the agreement. So there is cheating in non-monogamy, just like there's cheating in monogamy, because cheating is the breaking of an agreement. Sure. And I guess in non-monogamy, that is just much more of an overt discussion of what do we classify as breaking of an agreement? Yes. And what's so interesting, Tatiana, is that having worked with so many monogamous and non-monogamous couples. The amount of monogamous couples that don't have this conversation around what is cheating. And, they're like, no, you smiled at the cashier at the grocery store. That's cheating. Or you looked at that person on the beach just two seconds too long. Or you were grabbing that person's elbow while you were talking. You were flirting. That's cheating. There are no agreements set up. And in non-monogamy land, everything is discussed. Agreements are almost to a point where you're like, do we really have to talk about this? You're like, yes, yes, we do. You're like, oh, really? Okay, we have to go through every line item here. Yes, yes, exactly. And then you know exactly what would be breaking an agreement, which is really helpful in relationships. Yeah, for everybody. Hello. Yeah. And in friendships and in family relationships, like agreements being explicit or are really helpful and important. So what does an agreement for you look like? Or like, could you give a couple of examples of like kind of how this plays out? So a relationship agreement could be anything from a sexual agreement. So, for example, within your nesting partner or partnered partners relationship, maybe you don't use barriers, condoms, or dental dams, or anything like that. But anybody outside of your nesting situation, you use barriers with. Some people have sexual agreements like there's no ejaculating inside of another person, or Or they decide that like anal play is only for this one relationship. And like, again, these are all just hypothetical examples. And then relationally speaking, it could be anything from like, we have an agreement that you send a text when you get to your date. And when you leave your date, and that I get a kiss when you come home. Oh, cute. Yeah. Like, literally, it could be anything. For a bit, and actually sometimes still now, when one of my partners goes out on a date, and when I go out on a date to this partner, we exchange a love note before the date starts. And that's our way of saying, I'm putting my phone down. I'm going into the date. And that's something that feels really good. And it started out of discomfort. We were both feeling this discomfort around the other having a date with someone else. So we were like, how can this feel yummier? And reading this love note and being able to like look back at it throughout the like however many hours the other person was gone. And then my brain started associating them going out on a date with getting a love note. And I was like, yes, they have a date today. I get a note, you know, like, so it was almost this like retraining? So yeah, anything like that. Another one could look like an agreement with a friend or a long distance partner could be we agree to talk on the phone once a week at minimum. Right? Like these are all things that I agree to respond to your text messages within 12 hours. Whatever you need to feel safe and they're called agreements and not rules because they're made between people, not for people and set above. So it's not I'm letting my partner do this. It's not my partner lets me do this. It's we have an agreement that this is appropriate behavior. We have an agreement that it's OK for me to have a sleepover with this other person I'm seeing. All of these types of things. We have an agreement that we can share sex toys. We have an agreement that we don't share sex toys. We have an agreement that this type of toy we share, but this other type we don't. Like it can get really, really, really specific. And it's wonderful. It's a wonderful exercise to do with like literally any relationship that you have, whether that be family, platonic, romantic, sexual, really laying out what are the agreements and expectations here. I love this so much. I love that this is such a part of non-monogamous culture, but like you just said, I have taken this in my head right now to every relationship in my life where there is a boundary, but then there's also an immense amount of respect that's put in place through an agreement. I love the idea of something as simple as, when you text me, I agree, I'll get back to you within 12 hours. But we have entered this weird cultural ism where it's like, if you don't get back immediately or like within like 45 minutes, like it means XYZ. And like, in reality, it doesn't, right? Like we're all just like humans with busy lives like. Also, even if you're not busy, you just have some boundaries or whatever. I love this concept so much. This is why continuously I say anybody who identifies outside of a very heteronormative. Anglo-Saxon, because this is so related to Christianity in its history, anyone who identifies outside of that or practices outside of that has been setting a lot of these amazing pathways for people to walk down and basically show like, hey, there's another way here that isn't as. Confined and restrictive. So I love this. And also, I want to go back to a note that you said a couple of moments ago where you really see non-monogamy as an identity. I have never heard anybody say this. And I love that it brought you so much peace looking back on those old journals because you probably were like, oh, I've always been like, this is who I am. Like, yeah, no sweat. Like we, this isn't a new thing. So, so I really love that you identified it as something that isn't just like a choice. Yes. Yeah. And like, I think, thank you for that. I really do think that anyone who does experience it as a choice, that's completely, that is just as valid and just as important as me practicing it, right? Like there are a lot of people out there that I've heard say things like, oh, I could take it or leave it. I can be monogamous. I can be non-monogamous. It kind of just depends on how I'm feeling, the relationship. It's technically called ambiamorous, as in like you can identify as monogamous or not. Yeah, and that's totally valid. And then for those of you who are like, no, no, this is me. Like you're not alone, you're not alone. And there are people all over that spectrum from choice to not choice. And then that dictates so often how we show up in our relationships. So things like being a serial monogamist, things like having cheating issues. And really like looking back and asking yourself, what was the motivation there? Did you get off on the lying? Because if you didn't, if you didn't, perhaps there's an underlying desire for non-monogamy. You didn't have the words to articulate because of our mononormative culture. Like, if we don't have the words to literally express, I am enjoying being in relationship with you, and I would like to explore being in relationship with this other person. And I want to do it at the same time. Most of us can't say that. like literally feel like cannot get it from brain into mouth and out. And often that results in cheating. Yeah. And we view cheating so, uh, as a sin, like, as like the deepest, like worst thing you could possibly do. Yes. And like, while I am not, I'm not by any means saying like, yeah, to go out like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just encouraging anyone who has been on either side of it to zoom out and perhaps give yourself or this other person a minute to sit and ask like, what was this about? Was I trying to get out of the relationship? Do I just really like lying and sneaking? Or like, is this a I don't really understand what the big deal is if I want to be with two people at once, but not really knowing how to ask for that or say that or feeling wrong, feeling so wrong for even having that desire, right, like I did in high school, that you'd rather cheat. You'd rather lie than have that conversation. And for a lot of people, that is the case. And so I'd encourage anyone who has a history of cheating or jumping from relationship to relationship, romantically or sexually speaking, ask yourself if you gave yourself permission to enter into a non-monogamous relationship that was consensual from everyone involved, how would that feel? And if you're like, oh my God, that would be amazing and I would never cheat again, maybe look into it. Yeah. Honestly, I love these reframes. By the way, I've never heard someone speak to this topic in such an eloquent way. Thank you so much for- Thank you. I feel like I'm babbling, so thank you. No, no, no. This is blowing my mind in such a good way because I've heard other people speak to this topic. I think you're explaining the nuance in such a beautiful and freeing way. Even as you're saying that, you're like, ask yourself, would you? And I'm like, yeah, I would. You know, like my agreements might look like different, but like, yeah, like I would, you know what I mean? And I think that there's kind of something really exciting about being like, okay, if you would, what would that look like? What would the terms be? Like, and like making it and curating it for you is so exciting. I have so many things to go down here because it made me think two things. One, hot take from a therapist. Are monogamous relationships, I've been noodling on this, are monogamous relationships kind of codependent? So they, it's funny you ask this. Sometimes, yeah. Okay. And so it's really interesting because there's a book called Polysecure. It was written by a wonderful therapist. Her name is Jessica Fern. And it talks about attachment theory through the lens of monogamy and polyamory. I love this. Yeah, it's so good. And one of the hypotheses that she makes in there kind of speaks to your question, which is, are people securely attached to their partners or are they securely attached to the concept of monogamy? Yeah. And like, what does that mean? If we are so securely attached to not the human and not the relationship, but the concept of they won't leave me, there's no one else. This idea that monogamy means less threat, which is absolutely wackadoo, by the way. Like there's a divorce rate of 50%. Most of those people are monogamous, right? The idea that there is less of a threat because you're monogamous is, and I'm gonna say this really bluntly, It's really naive. And the reason being is exactly what we were talking about with the agreements. Like, we're not conversing. People don't even know that they can say, like, I think that person's hot. Yeah. To their partner, you know, and if you're in a monogamous relationship where you've talked about this and you're like, what? No, we say that all the time. Like, you're ahead of the curve. Like, way ahead of the curve. But the idea that, like, because my partner can have feelings for someone else that I'm more at risk is false. If anything, monogamy is an or, right? Monogamy is like me or her, me or him, right? Or me or them. And in non-monogamy, it's and. It's like me and them, me and her. And so there's actually less of a threat. But because we're programmed in our mononormative society to securely be attached to monogamy, it feels like someone is taking away your seatbelt in a car, or like, not even in a car, on like a rollercoaster at Six Flags. They're like, you know what, just go on this, like with no belt, you'll be fine. And you're like, ahhh! Like that is what it feels like when when you're trying to unlearn monogamy and your partner's going out with other people and you're like, I am at risk of death. They're never coming home. I'm gonna vomit on myself. Like, this is terrible. And yeah, in monogamy, we definitely, we have a false sense of security. And I do think that there is an element of both dependency and codependency. Like, we depend on the other person a lot And we also often find our identity in how we show up for that other person. And so it can be really damaging. And don't get me wrong. Codependency can come up in non-monogamous relationships just as often. But I do think that for a lot of non-monogamous folks, similar to what you were saying before, there has to be this extra consciousness. There has to be this awareness around unlearning and relearning and writing scripts and carving out what works for you and for your partnership and for one or more. And so there is more of an awareness to not fall into some of these easy to fall into traps that when we're not talking and thinking about it, we just kind of fall into like, oh, that's what it is or that's how it should be, or this is what boyfriend or girlfriend means. We're on the relationship escalator now. of course we're going towards marriage, but you've never had that conversation, right? Like... Ever all of these societal norms are hopefully discussed at at nauseam in non-monogamous relationships because you have to talk about what the container looks like for each relationship when there's more than one happening. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Wow. And I loved your roller coaster analogy. I it also just made me realize that I had the wildest dream last night that I was on a roller, like an unhinged roller coaster, like miles high. And I was like, oh my God, I hated that. So anyways, you just brought me back to last night's dream. Who knows what that means? Dream interpreters out here. But it brings me to an interesting question for you, which I think a lot of people have around non-monogamy and they feel like is probably a big barrier to entry, which is like you said, feeling like the seatbelt's off, feeling like you're free-falling, and that really translates kind of to like jealousy or just the uncertainty behind it. So what would you say that arc of learning has been like for you guys? Or is it linear? Is it wiggly and squiggly? Tell us more about this. Def not linear. You Um, you know, it's really interesting. I teach a workshop and have a workshop like for sale called navigating jealousy. And when I, the, not this last time I taught it, but the time before that, that I taught it live literally like the night before I was having trouble navigating my own jealousy. And I was like, re putting together the slides and I'm like. I'm a frosh. I was sitting there like, and then I got so frustrated because as I was like typing out and updating resources on the slides, I'm like, I know this shit. Like I know it, but I know it academically. And knowing something academically, as we can all probably attest to, no matter what the topic is, does not translate into knowing it semantically, does not translate into knowing it emotionally. Just doesn't. And just because you have, for example, conquered anxiety in one area of your life or in one department or with one person doesn't mean that the emotion of anxiety is not going to pop up in different situations with different people and in different areas. And jealousy is the same way. And, you know, discomfort is the same way. And envy is the same way. And fear is the same way. And these are all emotions that, regardless of your relationship structure or orientation or design, you're going to navigate. Like monogamous people get jealous all the time. The biggest difference is is that they don't talk about it. And in non-monogamy, you're like, I have to talk about it because I feel like I'm dying. Like. So my my personal arc with it has been pretty squiggly and all over the place. You know, I, I remember, and frankly on both sides of things, and what I mean by that is like the jealousy or fear or whatever, but like insert emotion here, that I have felt while a partner has been out or doing something. And then the challenge of knowing my partner is feeling that jealousy or discomfort or insert emotion here, and being the one doing the thing. Both of those experiences are so fucking hard. Yeah. They are so, so hard and for obviously different reasons, but knowing the discomfort of the the other one. Is both frustrating and can help. For me, it just became recent that one of my partners can leave the house to go on a date and I am not actively wanting to go vomit. Like, and this is like years. Like, I don't want to discourage anyone from like trying new things or like stepping in to this space. But like, it's been years. and I literally within months, I just recently have stopped feeling this. And part of it is, you know, security, part of it is time, part of it is my own internal work and work on insecurities and fear and attachment and things like that. But you can get there. I love that. And the first time that one of them left, and I didn't feel it, I was like, Oh, my, I'm okay. Like, I was okay. All all the other times, but it was so much more uncomfortable. And like, I'm not so uncomfortable. And that moment was so, so incredible. And I wanna be clear, like, that does not mean that I am now immune from it. Like, I have felt it since, but it was in a new situation with a new thing, new context, new this. And so I had to then come back and give myself grace. Like, okay, Rachel, this is new. Again, just like with anxiety, if I were in a new situation and my anxiety pop back up, would I start shaming myself? No, I would meet myself with compassion and like ask myself what's going on. And so learning how to do that and identify what these emotions are and then navigate them is so, so, so important. And that's for anyone. I was like, again, applying this to like so many different scenarios and. It makes me also wonder, like, is there, you know, how, like, post-sex, a lot of people have aftercare practices. Would you say that, like, after there are dates, are there any sort of, like, aftercare practices that help you guys, like, regulate or, like, come back together? Totally. Yeah. Such a great question. That's a, I don't think anyone's ever asked me this question before. Yeah. So you can have agreements around what this looks like. And similar to aftercare, after sex or a scene, it could change based on context. Right. So like in BDSM, if you typically after a scene have like fruit and snuggles and then you try something new or you're just feeling different that day and you're like, you know, what I want is TV and ice cream and I actually don't want to be touched, but I want to share the bed with you. Like it can change and aftercare for new experiences and non-monogamy can be similar. So you may have something that you typically do. And if it deviates from that, or you feel differently one time, that's also totally okay. If it starts to become a pattern, then you can update the agreement so that like your partner can show up best for you and vice versa. But something that a lot of partners that I work with, whether that is two, three, four, whatever, do is figure out how they want to come back together after an outside adventure. And for some people that is, you know, I want them to take a shower. I want them to change their clothes. I want them to brush their teeth. And then I want hugs and kisses and snuggles. Yeah. For other people that's, I don't want them to shower at all. I I want them to come straight to me and hold me for 30 minutes. For other people, it's like, I actually don't want to see them afterwards. We can totally be in the same. Apartment or house or whatever, but I don't really want to, like, interact or see them a lot and just kind of, like, reintegrate back in together, like, energetically first before, like, physically coming back together. And so it's figuring out what your actual need is and not what is just, like, anxiety or jealousy talking. Because sometimes it can manifest into this, like, anger inside, which is like, no, you just did this. Like, get the fuck away from me. And that's also valid, but like understanding where that's coming from and deciding if you want to listen to that or if that's a defense and safety mechanism and what you really want is snuggles and like it may be a little uncomfortable, but like, well, you're going to do it because it's going to feel better. And so, yeah, like there's a lot of different ways that you can can do that. And having agreements around communication, specifically, is really important. And this is part of why I mentioned an agreement around text when you're on your way home. That like if you're at home by yourself. And your partner or partners are out and they're coming back, that you're not then taken off guard when they walk in the door. Yeah. And really like mentally and emotionally and like energetically preparing for them to return home in the space. Like, are they going to have a bag with them? Did they bring toys? Do you want to see how big the bag is? Do you want to make sure that you're upstairs? Do you want to see what they wore? Do you care? Does it feel sexy? Like, do you want to jump their bones when they come home? Like, there's just so many different ways that it could go. And so having as much logistical information as possible can sometimes really help with then the things that we can't figure out ahead of time. Yeah, totally. Oh my God. And even I'm thinking, I'm like, do you want to hear about the date? Do you not want to hear about the date? Do you want to hear about the experience? Like, there are a lot of different layers that I think come with these agreements, but I think there's so much to like learn from it and about like about your process. And like you said, like how you deal with other emotions that are coming in. And I can't help but think you probably are so much more evolved than people. Like, I'm not even kidding, though. Like, there's something to people who are in non-monogamous relationships who are so much more evolved in their emotional capacities and just like speaking their truth. So yeah, it's definitely not everyone. And it's not all the time. Sure. Like, I, I, I want to like really be very clear that like, even as a therapist and someone who has been in this life, like living it for a while, I still have moments where I behave like a five-year-old. Sure. You know, I still have moments. Yes, exactly. I'm still a human. And I do agree with you that on the whole, folks who are in a situation where they have to do things out of necessity and like really get into it and and dig in to exist. Like there's a bit more of an emotional, you can call it emotional intelligence. You can call it emotional regulation. You can call it communication skills, you know, kind of all part of the same package. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Okay. Rachel. Wow. This was so informative. So insightful. Like I said, you're probably one of the most eloquently spoken people on this topic that I've just even heard. So So I'm so happy to have had you articulate this and share so much. My last question for you is what is currently on your bedside table? So currently on my bedside table is a Momotaro Apotheca Hydrosol spray. And I have two sex toys and a phone charger. I love it. Perfect. Thank you. We love Momotaro here. I think you can use the discount code, anybody listening, if you use BEDSIDE, all caps, you might get a discount. But we love. Yeah, we love. We love Momotaro. Rachel, thank you so much for coming on. You'll have to come back sometime soon. We'll have many more deep dives on different topics, but I love chatting with you. I would love that. Thank you for having me and for just asking questions that allowed me to babble on about a topic that I feel so, so passionate about. Thank you. I'm so happy. All right, bye everybody. Music. I hope you loved this episode as much as we did making it. If you have any feedback, questions, or suggestions for future episodes, or if you just want to chat, don't hesitate to reach out to us at The Bedside on Instagram and TheBedside.co online. You can also find us at ByTheBedside on TikTok. To stay updated on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform, and if you found this episode valuable, I would so greatly appreciate if you could leave us a rating, a review, text it to a friend, share it to your Instagram stories, let's get this message out there loud and clear. Until next time, thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you. Music.

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