The Athletes Podcast
The Athletes Podcast is a leading source of information, inspiration, and education for anyone interested in optimizing physical performance, maintaining good health, and living an active lifestyle. Join David Stark as he interviews some of the world's biggest athletes and fitness professionals, The Athletes Podcast provides practical advice, expert insights, and real-world strategies to help listeners achieve their health and fitness goals.The goal is to entertain, educate & inspire the next generation of athletes!
The Athletes Podcast
The Future of Women's Hockey with Eleni Demestihas - Episode #257
Eleni Demestihas, Director of Hockey Operations for Cookstark Management, shares her journey from law school to becoming an agent for women's hockey players and offers insights on the explosive growth of the PWHL.
• Began as a law school graduate who wanted sports industry education without necessarily practicing law
• Started representing hockey players when many had no agents, particularly focusing on players who weren't national team stars
• Navigated the challenging transition when the PHF merged into the PWHL, which voided all previously negotiated contracts
• Witnessed Vancouver draw nearly 20,000 fans during the PWHL Takeover Tour, making a compelling case for expansion
• Believes Seattle, Vancouver, and possibly Philadelphia are strong candidates for PWHL expansion teams
• Explains how female athletes' social media pages convert at significantly higher rates than male athletes'
• Advocates for housing stipends scaled to cost of living, trade consent clauses, and players receiving jersey sale percentages
• Predicts PWHL expansion teams will be valued at $20+ million, with potential for player equity ownership models
• Emphasizes the importance of younger players seeking representation earlier as the women's game professionalizes
Create your own luck by working hard, being a good person, doing favors for people, being there when people need you, and thinking about your next step as a long-term thing.
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you know Jillian Dempsey, one of the players that I work with. She was, you know, a captain of the Boston team in the PHF. Like does she? Is she a draft eligible, and if so, what does that look like? Like, are you able to express a preference for a certain location? She ended up going to Montreal, which was like really, really wild. Like, if you're listening to this and you're a men's hockey fan, it was literally like if Patrice Bergeron got relocated to Montreal and played for the Habs for the season.
Speaker 2:Like, what's going on everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the athletes podcast. We hope you had a fantastic week. Hope all you guys have enjoyed some awesome playoff hockey. I know I have. That LA Edmonton series is just ridiculous. If you're on the east coast, you're not staying up for it would highly recommend that you do so one night while you can. That stuff is amazing.
Speaker 2:While we're on the topic of hockey, how about we talk about those pwhl expansion teams? We got vancouver, we got seattle. It's gonna rock that vancouver game. The takeover series was electric from what I saw. I know dave was there. He had just amazing things to say about it. That place is gonna be packed. It's gonna be awesome. Same Same with Seattle. That place brings the energy. See it with a Kraken. It's going to be electric. On the topic of these PWHL teams, our guest today is Eleni Damesdehas. She's Director of Hockey Operations for Quick Start. Management has a great catalog of players under her belt. She's got PWHL players, ncaa players, sweet players in Sweden, players in youth sports. Nothing but amazing things to say about her. She's fantastic. You're going to love her. In this episode she brings a ton of insight into the world of women's sports. You're going to love it. So, without further ado, let's get right into it.
Speaker 3:You're the most decorated racquetball player in US history, world's strongest man From childhood passion to professional athlete, eight-time Ironman champion. So what was it like making your debut in the NHL? What is your biggest piece of advice for the next generation of athletes, from underdogs to national champions? This is the Athletes Podcast, where high-performance individuals share their triumphs, defeats and life lessons to educate, entertain and inspire the next generation of athletes. Here we go Eleni Damesdias I said it wrong that time.
Speaker 1:See, we practiced it. You did it right. You just like over-pronounced it, but it's technically correct.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's a perfect way to start it off, because I always am trying to improve and that's just how we operate at Cookstark Management. We were talking there about Ryan, the fact that he's been an amazing addition to the team over the past year, almost that he's been working with us. You elevating Cookstark Management hockey to what is crazy. I don't know You've got more to say than I do on this topic because you're the expert in it. Eleni, welcome to the Athletes Podcast. A little CSM AP crossover today. Thank you for coming on the show. I would love for you to introduce yourself personally, how you've come from Hecate Sports, coming across to Cookstark Management, joining the fun team over here and we're making an impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited. Uh, big fan of the podcast, so it's cool to be like on it. Um, I so I actually went to law school. Like I came straight through from undergrad, didn't really wasn't planning on using my degree, my undergrad degree, like I knew I wanted to get a post-grad degree. I thought about doing sports management. I took the LSAT grad degree. I thought about doing sports management. I took the LSAT, did pretty well on it. I liked the idea of like reading and writing as a job.
Speaker 1:Ended up in law school the summer before I graduated from undergrad, which was the year, like the summer, that I was studying for the LSAT. I was an intern for an NWSL team on the ops side and I was studying for the LSAT and one of the players on the team I mean, they knew my name and I was like waiting for them to be done because I was going to do their laundry. So I was just like sitting outside the locker room waiting for them to finish so I could get their stuff. And she walked out and she was like I'm really glad you're going to law school because the sport needs people like you and I was like, well, maybe I should go into sports then. School like everybody wants to be an agent, everyone wants to be in sports, in law school like solidly 35% of especially the guys that you meet in law school are like, yeah, I want to be a GM.
Speaker 3:Whatever, you're talking about Brock sport management grad, where everyone and their mom wanted to be sports agents.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, it's pretty common and it's kind of a difficult space to get into. I think you know when you, if you're coming at it from the angle of being in law school, the way that it's taught to you is basically like you have to go to a big law firm that does sports stuff and just like, do your time and and get in with the right partners and then you can kind of do sports law stuff and I knew I wasn't going to do that. I. I didn't really go to law school to practice law like it was more I wanted whatever I did after law school, I wanted to have the education of a lawyer, I wanted to have the JD, I wanted to know the ins and outs of contracts.
Speaker 1:I spent a lot of time focusing on licensing, so copyright and trademark stuff. That was a big part of what I did in law school. I worked for a major league soccer team, did a bunch of brand deals for them, and then I went and worked for Dunkin' Donuts and did a bunch of brand deals for sports teams from the brand side. Like we did a Chargers agreement. We did the Orlando MLS and NWSL teams while I was at Dunkin' and I graduated at a time when you basically just had to take whatever job you had, because it was like, right as COVID happened, I graduated in May 2020. So I took the first job that I could get, which was like at a law firm.
Speaker 3:Fun times for the grads of those years as one of them in 2019, and with many friends in the sports space who were impacted. Yeah, it was a tough time.
Speaker 1:I basically just took whatever job I could get and I had just moved here and I had been around the women's hockey space because I got involved with the Ice Garden, which is a women's hockey blog while I was in law school. Just like, so that I wouldn't lose my mind, I was just I was a content creator for them. So I went to a bunch of games. I was at a lot of college CWHL, nwhl games and I had some friends that were media members and players started to ask them to ask me questions because they knew who I was and they knew that I had been to law school and at the time most players did not have agents and the players that did have an agent were mostly working with Lander. So I knew him, I knew of him. Players started to ask me questions. I started to joke around with my friends that I should start an agency and they were all kind of like just do it, it's not. It's like actually not funny, you should just do it. So I did Um, but before that um, the way that I got really connected with Lander was that he ended up in a situation with a player, um, back in the PHF days.
Speaker 1:Um and he had questions about, like, whether or not what had happened was against, uh, us law, cause he's he, you know, has a great background in Canadian law. But this happened in the US and he knew who I was and he knew how to reach me and he called me and I helped him out with that situation. So I had a good relationship with him from the beginning. I think I always admired, like obviously, the space that he was in was something that I was also excited about and and from that conversation alone, like I knew how much he cared Because, like he was really like he did not have to work as hard as he worked to make that situation better. He could have looked at the playroom and like I'm sorry, like there's nothing I can do about this, and he was like going to find a way to make it as good as he could make it.
Speaker 3:I think that's what stands out about Lander, that's what stands out about you, the people we've been bringing on. Like work ethic is kind of the minimum standard that we set and you need those kind of people, especially in this space. Various reasons, and it was really clear to me immediately that he really cared a lot about the girls, that he was working with and what their experience was like and how they were feeling.
Speaker 1:So I started my agency and I actually kind of came at it from the angle of like you know, everybody should be able to have an agent. Like like at the time there was this thought process for a lot of people that, like only the top players in the world or whatever, only like the top national team players needed agents. And I kind of came at it from an angle of like that doesn't need to be true. Like there can be affordable options for bottom six players and backup goalies, and like everybody should have the ability to have, you know, an agent to work with to help them feel empowered and to help them take care of the stuff off the ice that distracts from their ability to focus on the game. So that was kind of my mission statement when I started.
Speaker 3:Kind of like how everyone is an athlete if they have the ability to move their body and express motion, like we deserve those things as human rights, and that was what stood out why. You know, when lander and I connected a couple years ago, I saw what he was doing in hockey and it was like these are people that deserve the same treatment that us men have been getting for decades. Yeah, and you, the sports space was just, you know, decades behind, frankly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the same. I mean, I definitely came at it from, like, look like your fourth line NHL players have agents like those guys that are just busting their butts to try to make a million dollars a year to get a one year contract in the NHL. They're not doing that by themselves, they have someone, and I wanted that to be what this space looks like too. And it turns out like if you're good at that and you make players feel heard and you make them feel prioritized, you pick up all different kinds of players, and I ended up having a huge range of players, from that type of player that I first intended to represent all the way up to you know, I ended up with a 13th overall pick last season and it just kind of snowballed from there.
Speaker 1:But, um, I had my deal. I mean, that's all her that was. I was there, but like she's the one who played the hockey that got her to that spot. But I, uh, I had my agency for two months before the merger happened and all of the contracts that I had negotiated for the coming PHF year were voided. So I had to start from scratch and I you know Lander and I were obviously in the same spot in that respect and I kind of kept connected with him. But, like, at that point, we were all so frantically trying to figure out what was happening that, like you, were never going to enter into a space where you were like, let's talk about what, like a merger of our businesses might look like, like you know. So we went through the first draft.
Speaker 3:I remember sitting at that draft. I've got this puck here that I was fortunate enough to be a part of in Toronto and the amount of unknown when people were sitting was crazy. I, again in full transparency, like, was going being a part of this, was just trying to soak it all up. There was so much unknown Teams, locations like it. Can you maybe shed some light on that too, because you had the ins?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think that we knew even before the merger happened. We had an idea of what like the shortlist for locations was, because the story that summer was basically like the PWHPA was ready to launch a league and they were going to do it regardless of what was happening with the PHF. So like I had a kid who was graduating from Harvard and was having was getting interest from both the PHF and the PWHPA and they had this like um info call. The P2HPA folks had this info call where they were like there's going to be a league. We can't like we don't know when the draft is going to be yet, but sometime this fall, you know, and we knew that, like we, like most of the teams that we have today I knew were on the shortlist, ottawa was the wild card Cause at the time they were talking about either London, ontario or DC, which, like I think ultimately I think they really wanted to have a balance of Canadian and US markets, which makes a ton of sense, and I'm glad they went with Ottawa. I think it works, but it was definitely like we didn't know until the last second that that was going to be a place.
Speaker 1:The eligibility rules for entering the draft were not totally clear because it was not a college draft and it still today is not a college draft, it is an entry draft. So it's kind of a different thing. And it was like okay, like if you know Jillian Dempsey, one of the players that I work with, she was, you know, a captain of the Boston team in the PHF Like, is she draft eligible and if so, what does that look like? Like are you able to express a preference for a certain location? She ended up going to Montreal, which was like really, really wild. Like if you're listening to this and you're a men's hockey fan, it was literally like if Patrice Bergeron got relocated to Montreal and played for the Habs versus season. Like that is the level of like identity meshing that she has with the city of Boston.
Speaker 1:And then we didn't know, like what the contract negotiation process was going to be like for most of the gms that were starting like didn't necessarily know each other super well, some of them did. The coaches got hired like a week before the draft maybe. Like it was very, very chaotic, um, but it was fun. I mean I would say it was type three fun. It wasn't fun while it was happening, but looking back on it, it's really fun to think about. Like being a part of that, I had three players get drafted in that first draft.
Speaker 3:Literally stuff that they write in textbooks right and like this will probably be studied and referenced, and you know there's a lot to be said for being able to speak to that. Going through it and now, having seen that over time couple different leagues, you know pros and cons that come with it. I think it also probably highlights the importance to your point there around entry draft that athletes start looking at this at an earlier age. Yeah, I mean as a 15 year old. If you're not signed to an agency, you're probably not playing in the WHL or going you know like, and that's not necessarily where it is now, but it's probably heading that direction, right graduating college senior, you were kind of in a place where it it didn't.
Speaker 1:You didn't need to be thinking about having an agent yet. But I think now, two years in, it's you don't want to be in a position where you are experiencing the draft preparation process with someone that you don't know. So it's, it can be really tempting to wait until you're a senior and like I think it can work out and like we are always happy to sign players at that at that time. But I think that as time goes on you're gonna probably see more and more at least sophomores, juniors, start to think about starting that relationship and some of it is like obviously the NIL opportunities are going to grow as as the PHL grows, because the PWHL is going to be on TV eventually and that sort of stuff trickles down just like it does for men's hockey players. That's further out, but for now, even before that happens, having someone going into, you know you're thinking about graduating. You know you already have someone who you trust and who has been at games and seen you in person, who can speak to your style of play and, more importantly, I think, speak to what kind of person you are, because sometimes, in fact a lot of times in my experience going into the draft, the difference between being someone who gets picked in the sixth and seventh round and someone who is now battling for a camp invite is having someone that GMs and teams know and can trust, who can advocate for the kind of person you're going to be in that locker room, because at that point, if you're looking at a bottom six, you're going to work your way into the lineup role or even just playing a role like a checking line role or something they care about your physical skill, but the pool is so deep that what's really going to matter is having someone be able to say hey, here's an anecdote about this player that, like tells you what kind of teammate she's going to be.
Speaker 1:I had this conversation over the summer about a goalie where I was like, look, she is not going to be the kind of goalie in the room where you're going to have to worry about them competing with each other in an unhealthy way. It's important for them to push each other and to compete with each other, but, like this is the. This is a story I can tell you about this player that will tell you that you can trust her to be in that room and not upset the balance and be supportive and work hard and and accept whatever decision is made, like about starting. And if you don't have someone that you're working with, who knows you, that way you kind of miss out on that extra dimension and it's easier.
Speaker 1:I mean, we will all do crash courses up before the draft, but it's so much better if it's someone that you've known for two years and I think for the players to have someone they can trust, like, let's say, you interview with a coach you know before the draft and you're like I don't, I don't think I want to play there If you don't trust, if you don't have an agent that you know well enough that you trust to say that to, it's harder to end up in the spot that really feels like it's a good fit for you.
Speaker 1:So I definitely think we're going to see a trend, you know, not as quickly, towards where we're at with you know, middle school and high school boys getting agents, but at the college stage you're going to see players who are thinking really seriously about going pro will also start thinking really seriously about like, do I need an agent? If I do, what kind of agency do I want to work with Like what's important to me about this relationship. I think that's going to be a big trend over like the next five years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, an example for me that comes to mind is like Sammy Tabor and Molly Boston College like they're younger but now have brand deals in place for the next couple years during school. They don't have to worry about that. They have their equipment, they have their supplements taken care of by perfect sports, their equipment with warrior right and like. Those are the kind of relationships that you can establish when you're young early. Build a brand rapport relationship with them.
Speaker 3:Then over the course of four or five years, imagine a the again NIL money. What else you're going to get from it in products? What other deals are going to come from it because of that exposure that you're getting? And then, further to that, when you get to that draft point, oh, you don't have to stress about all those other factors, you're just worrying about draft then, and even then it's that's what your agent's there for, right. So I mean to me, if you can eliminate additional stressors, that's what I do for work, that's what you do for work, that's what everyone theoretically should be aiming to do in their life is to eliminate stressors, right, we perform better when we're not stressed.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's huge, and one of the things about like the P2HL being a brand new space, even looking at this from a marketing perspective, is that you're thinking about the way that I think about it is like if you walked into a baseball arena and there was like no branding on any of the walls and you, as a brand, could come in and be like I can stake my claim on this. You know, I can be a major and you're seeing this like at the league level. Yeah, exactly, canadian Tire was a big one. You're seeing this at the league level and you're going to start seeing that with players too. So the way that we have a goalie, sandy Abstrider, who is a Warrior goalie she was not skating in Warrior before this season. We connected her with Warriors so she could try the pads out, she see how she felt about them. She ended up actually loving them and switching to Warrior For a brand like Warrior.
Speaker 1:Even thinking about Molly Jordan and Sammy Tabor you know they don't have a huge footprint yet in the P2HL. The P2HL is a Bauer league. There are players in the league that are CCM athletes Jill Dempsey is one of them but Warrior. You know, having these existing relationships with players that are very likely to go pro. It's it helps the players and it helps the brand because, you know, if, if you're Sammy Tabor and you have this year's long relationship with warrior and you've been a warrior athlete and you go pro, it's huge to be able to leverage being like if she went pro today she would be the only I think the only skater in the league with a major warrior deal and that is so huge for warrior.
Speaker 1:You see them leverage that with Leon in the NHL. He is like the NHL warrior player Um and. And so I think having those relationships and being able to like, make connections with intention when you're younger sets you up also. Like make connections with intention when you're younger sets you up also, you know, to be able to, you know, grow your brand in a more intentional way. That's not just about like how much money can I make, how many partners can I have, but who are the partners who are really going to be able to support me in a way that will transition well to the pro space.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think that's so well put and this is why I appreciate you having you being on the team so much, because having a true lawyer with the experience that you have, and then, like Lander, we got a three headed monster between the three of us, and then we're adding Claire, lauren, ryan, like that, that part is really fun too, and I think when you're able to build those relationships internally and externally, like I'm going to read out some of the brands that we're just working with, because I'm going to toot our horn a little bit the thrill of the shill, as they say Lenny, midday Squares, perfect Sports, element, a-cane, vivo, barefoot, new Balance, zenkai Sports, pioneer Auto Group, ccm, warrior Bauer, rawlings, iq Bars the ones that Bryson DeChambeau is crushing every time he's out on the course during his YouTubes.
Speaker 3:These are the kind of brands that we get to work with, and I'm just riffing off a couple as I was driving hands-free, of course, because we're safety first, but the priority here is the fact that why would you take on additional responsibilities as an athlete if you could have that delegated?
Speaker 3:yeah right, that's the way I look at.
Speaker 1:I think also one of the things that I've talked to players about, like, and the way that I try to with a player who has never, like, entered the space before, the way that I try to start it with them is by being like, what are things that you spend money on? Because, like, even at the P2HL level, even with players who are getting picked in the second or third round, you're really not making a ton of money. And so, starting with what are the things that you are spending money on today? Um and and so, starting with what are the things that you are spending money on today, how can we help you? At least start with getting that stuff for free in exchange for using your brand to elevate, you know, this partner, you actually end up saving a ton of money. Like, if you have a protein partner. Protein powder is expensive, you know, electrolytes are expensive, protein bars are expensive, and these athletes, especially in a context where they're finally with a league where they are skating every day, they are lifting every day, as you know, it's the norm. It's not typical for them to have a day off. They're going through these kinds of supplements and these kinds of support, you know, like the Firefly bands and stuff like that. They're going through them at a rate where if they were paying for that with their salary money, they're not able to leverage that. You know, they're not able to save money, they're not able to live in a nicer apartment or whatever. And if you start from that place you end up really thinking about what are the brands that like mean a lot to me, that it's important to me that, like they know that this is something that has helped me. So yeah, it's been.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think that's been a really cool part of this. It's that's a part of this that I didn't necessarily come in intending, because at the time when I started my agency in the PHF, that was like really, I mean they were on ESPN plus but you weren't getting the kind of exposure you're getting today and I think you know it would have been harder to get like a true endorsement deal in that context. So I wasn't thinking about that a ton. But we've done NIL deals, plenty of them since we got here. Obviously, lander got those warrior deals done for the BC girls we were talking about.
Speaker 1:I have a kid at BU who has an eyeglass NIL deal because she wears glasses and you know she's playing in these high-profile Battle of Comm Ave big rivalry games every year and getting enough visuals on her pages that it's worth it to the brand, and now she's not. I mean, glasses are expensive, you know what I mean, and she was their first NIL athlete too, and that's kind of a cool. You're always breaking ground in the space the first time you do anything. Nine out of ten times it's like close to being the first time it's been done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think of like a visual edge and Megan Warner connection, and I just had Paris O'Brien on the podcast last week. He's a visual edge athlete. He's playing in the Olympics for team China, right, like. Those are the kind of relationships that now we can leverage, bring to other brands and say, hey, like, and the best part, the cherry on top of any, here's the. Again, we're just thrill of the show, the whole thing. It's female athletes. Social media pages convert at a ridiculously higher rate than males and it's like it's proof. The data is out there. I'm gonna put like some pinned walls up here around like the exact metrics, but it's disgusting like it doesn't even come close. And us guys, you know we just got to accept it yet all the brands are still spending money with the men. And it pisses me off, lenny, I'm not gonna lie, I get fired up about it. I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:We gotta keep hammering them eh yeah, I think, I think the the next big thing for the pwhl, other than expansion, is going to be a tv deal. When they get their big, their tv rights like sold, I think there's going to be a massive, massive corresponding shift. And and how these things are approached with players because, like right now, it's still obviously much easier if you're on a national team. That's kind of like you're going to get not just free product but like actually compensated for being in a commercial or whatever Once this stuff is on TV. If you're a top pair D for a team like Montreal but you're like not on a national team, you're just really really good at a club level.
Speaker 1:You know those opportunities aren't there yet, but when they're on TV I think they will be. I mean, I guess we'll see. But yeah, I think that's the next big thing and I actually I think that expansion and TV deals are related. Like I think that when they think about expansion, they're thinking about TV markets, for sure as part of the part of the reason that they're picking certain places.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm curious. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I attended the takeover tour in Vancouver. You were at Denver. Where else were you? Yeah, is that it?
Speaker 1:I went to New Jersey for a game, but it wasn't a takeover tour game.
Speaker 3:Okay, Give me, give me the synopsis. What did you think? I can humbly safely brag that I attended the highest attended event in Vancouver, with 19,000. Some odd people, no big deal, you know. Big shout out to Vancouver, and that's probably why you know there's gonna be some hockey played out here too, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think the Tegelwit tour is a great idea. I mean I think the PWHPA was already doing this before they launched the league. They didn't have, the PWHPA didn't have teams that were like set geographic locations really. So you saw the Premier Lacrosse League do this. The Premier Lacrosse League did a couple seasons where they just played in different cities and then once they knew what cities were drawing, well, they put teams in those cities. So Denver got a PLL team after a couple of years of them coming to play here and us showing up.
Speaker 1:And I think you know the PWHL hasn't maybe outright said this. Maybe they have now, but it wasn't always the explicit intention of the Takeover Tour. But I think you can look at the Takeover Tour and understand that they're sussing out markets and, like you know, buffalo had a PHF team. They put a Takeover Tour game. I don't think they broke 10K. It's easy to look at that and be like, ok, maybe we'll try them again next year for a takeover tour, but like this is not going to be a priority for expansion, you go to Vancouver almost 20,000 people. There are plenty of NHL teams that don't pull that. I mean in places that it would be like obviously Ottawa like it's.
Speaker 1:It's not a secret that Ottawa the senators have struggled. I think that if the senators were really good, maybe this would be a different story. Like, I don't think it's a market problem. Winnipeg's arena doesn't even hold 19,000 people. It only holds about 15. The last time I checked so to be able to pull almost 20,000 people at a game, vancouver made immediately made a massive case for itself. Quebec City did really well, edmonton did really well, denver we were the highest attended American location with 14,000 or so. I've been to a couple of Avs games. I think the atmosphere at this game was as good, if not better, depending on the Avs matchup. If they're playing the Ducks, this game was massively more exciting and just the crowd was so into it.
Speaker 3:Shout out to the PWHL Takeover tour for doing a good job. They did it well. It was well executed. Vancouver was phenomenal. I took a bunch of photos. It was awesome, I think. Since you brought up Ottawa, I have to mention it. Just wouldn't be me to not mention the fact that they're going to be the Leafs in the first round. It's going to be terribly unfortunate. I know you can agree with me.
Speaker 1:You're nodding along, you don't even have to say anything. No, I mean, I'm wearing a Bruins hat, so I think that will happen. It will be very, very funny. Hopefully they grease the polls in Ottawa. I think Ottawa could rival the city of Philadelphia if that's actually what goes down, especially if it's a game seven.
Speaker 1:But I mean, I think these are all places like. That's the kind of fan base that you want to put a women's team in front of, like you. And, and talking about Philadelphia, that's another city that, like they haven't done a takeover tour there yet. I understand that the, the sirens, are currently playing in New Jersey and a lot of people think of those as the same market. They're not, and I do think it would be really sick to to just like just go, just go to Wells Fargo and see what happens.
Speaker 1:That's the kind of stuff that TakeOver Tour has been doing and is going to continue to do, and I think it's just been really cool, because there are some cities that you would maybe never think of as being a good place to put a team that have really shown up, like St Louis is one. Off the top of my head, there's one women's D1 program in the state of Missouri, lindenwood. Nicole Hensley is the only player I can think of who graduated from Lindenwood and has played pro and like really you know? But St Louis shows up and like maybe you put a team there, who knows, maybe DC, maybe Nashville Like I think everybody should get the opportunity to try it because some of these 06 markets maybe don't show up the same way.
Speaker 3:I am in full support of this. I'm for Philly getting one. You got me fired up on that part too. I think that could be a fun atmosphere.
Speaker 1:It's just a fun city. They will absolutely go nuts and also it's an immediate. One of the things that I think is so important about this league and the way that they did this is that you had ready-made rivalries coming in, so a lot of these players had never played together, a lot of them had played with people who were on other teams, but it's Toronto and Montreal, but it's Montreal and Boston, but it's Toronto and Ottawa and and so immediately you're getting these like ready-made rivalries. And when I think of, like, if you're going to do Vancouver, seattle, that makes a ton of sense to me, not just for travel reasons, but because, like they're always going to be pit against each other for any sport and being able to draw on that, you know, maybe you put a team in Wisconsin, so you get the border battle between Minnesota and Wisconsin.
Speaker 1:Philadelphia is another one of those places. Pittsburgh and Philly, pittsburgh and Detroit, detroit and Chicago, like. I think that these things are things that are really exciting to me about the prospect of expansion and, of course, the main thing is that it just means more jobs, which is huge because there's too much talent even for the leagues that we have now, even if you think about a certain percent of them going to Europe and playing in Sweden or whatever. Unless we expand, there's going to be so many people who don't have somewhere to play and can't continue, and it's a better product If you can get more of those people playing for longer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just brings up a good like that we should plug a Knicks working in hockey website and Instagram page. That's been absolutely taken off. Uh has said no direct correlation with his timing to come on the athletes podcast, but uh, maybe or maybe not, we'll never know. Either way, there are jobs coming up and I think that's one of the unique parts, not just at csm but in general. Like the sport, world is expanding and we are able to fill more roles with people who want to be there and are passionate about improving the sport the fan experience as well as the athlete experience, because those are like three separate things that maybe we're missing in the past.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean I think that like one thing that I think about with this league, because I think the level of play is the highest we've ever seen in any league anywhere in the world.
Speaker 3:I would agree with that.
Speaker 1:I think even players that played a decade in Sweden will tell you this is better. Like this is faster, more physical. There's a lot of reasons for that, but I think the player experience is a place where we've made huge progress in the last two years from where we used to be. But there's also still a huge gap that can be filled, and this first CBA is through eight years, so that's two Olympic cycles. We'll see first. You know, the group of players that are going to really be in positions of like to leverage their brands. At the time that first CBA is up, you're going to see something like the NWSL or the WNBA. I mean, the NWSL just redid their CBA and eliminated the college draft. It's all free agency now. That's what they wanted, that's what they got. This was the first off season that it functioned that way. It was crazy. It's been really cool.
Speaker 1:I am a huge. I love attending entry drafts. I think there's an element of it. That's a lot of fun. I'm a huge proponent for eliminating drafts too, because I think for our league it wouldn't work right now, because all the teams are individually or not are collectively owned by one entity. But when you have teams that are individually owned. Having no entry draft forces every team to make itself an attractive place to play, because you have to sell yourself every time you sign a player, and like that's what we do we, every single time we want a player to work with us, we have to make a case of like this is why you're a good fit here. This is why we're a good fit for you. So I think that that first CBA we're going to see a huge jump in player experience.
Speaker 3:But even today, I mean they get a housing stipend. We've never had that before. Is it enough? Money Depends on where you're living. It's better than nothing. You know some places it's gross and, like Vancouver, is just as bad, so they're going to have that issue. It's something that they do need to address. Again, you're working closely with these individuals. I'd love for you to share maybe one to three maybe wishlist items that you'd love to see in that incorporated, just if you were to put it out there, manifest, you know, into the ether.
Speaker 1:I would like to see the housing stipend scaled in some way to cost of living. I don't think it makes sense for someone living in Ottawa to get the same housing stipend as someone living in Boston. I think those are very different places to live. I don't think either place is cheap, but you know your housing stipend is going to go a ton further. It's also in USD, so the players in Canada are getting a little bit of a better deal because it's more Canadian dollars that they can spend. So I think that kind of aligning the, maybe making it more of a percentage and less of like a hard number I think that would be that would help a ton.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things the NWSL did recently was to make it so that players can't be traded without their consent. So basically everybody starts with like a no trade clause and they are asked to waive it. I think that I don't think the PWHL is there yet, like I think you have to have a certain amount of infrastructure before you can sort of allow for that. I can understand from a GM perspective, like why we don't have it yet. I also think for a mature league that's not in the startup phase, it's a, it's a huge. I mean, leagues in Europe don't trade players, they just don't. It's not a thing, it's only a thing in North America, really. Um, and I think that it it it requires um teams to be a little bit more intentional with the people that they're recruiting, because you can't just trade them, you know. And it also requires players to develop a different kind of relationship with the team because they have a little bit more leverage, so they feel a little bit more equal, and I just think that it improves the product.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've seen that in the NWSL and it doesn't mean no trades. I think I would say in the NWSL I almost feel like we've seen at least the same amount. So I think that's something that I would love to see. And then another thing is that, like in the PHF, they used to get like a certain percentage of their jersey sales, just like. I think we should do that Right now I can't go online and buy a Nora Toulouse jersey if I want to. I think you should be able to do that, and I think that she should get a cut of however much the league makes or the team makes from selling that jersey. I think that is something that could go a long way to. You know, it's maybe not a ton of money right off the bat, but any amount at this level supports, because it's the difference between making $45,000 and $50,000 a year, which is actually a pretty huge difference.
Speaker 3:Well, a five grand can go a long way, especially when that's part of your money that you can spend on a daily basis, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the payoff is a little bit less obvious for you to be someone who gets on Instagram and connects directly with your followers or whatever it is that that is going to help sort of build your footprint. I think there are some players who really understand and like, are just attracted to the idea of doing it for other reasons, like not necessarily because they're thinking about how they can leverage that to make money. Like not necessarily because they're thinking about how they can leverage that to make money. But if you're, if you have this direct like, the more people that buy your jersey, the more money you're going to make. I think players will connect a ton more with fans and the community you know thinking about like, the more that I have these one-on-one connections with people, the more people are going to buy my jersey, the more money I'm going to make. It's a very easy step-by-step process and that grows the game Cause you've got kids that you know.
Speaker 1:Just like, I went to a thrashers game when I was like 10 and I met Kerry Layton and after the game and he signed my beanie baby or whatever, and then I never missed a thrashers game and I grew up and here I am. You know what I mean. Like I think that I think that there's like a very clear flow chart um with with stuff like jersey sales, where you can see how it would impact multiple areas of the game you're, you're on it, hey because I just threw those at you, like, hey, give me one to three, and you just gave me three spots, like that's unbelievable.
Speaker 3:And that jersey, that jersey, one we got to double down on. Um, seriously, because, you know, insert fanatics, who has jerseys to sell, or whoever else we want ccm, bauer, I don't care whoever's going to take on this challenge, we're putting it out into the ether. Someone should do it. Because, hey, by the way, to your point, if I'm nora and I have the ability to now send a message, hey, here's the link to buy my jersey. I know you've been supporting me for the past four years traveling around and it would mean a lot to me if you do that. Oh, actually, by the way, here's a discount code ap15, you know, or orange 15, whatever your code is and you now have the ability to interact one-on-one with an individual, sell a jersey of yours that you're going to get a commission from Fanatics.
Speaker 3:Ccm, bauer, nike, whoever builds the jerseys gets to then benefit from it from a financial standpoint and a volume sold standpoint. To your point, there's a flow chart there. I just spoke it into what it should look like. Someone should take this. You should receive a royalty. We'll be sitting back on a beach living off that royalty, because everyone's winning in this case, right.
Speaker 1:It's an easy one and the NWSL also the Players Association for the NWSL has a relationship with Breaking tea. So players get their own like silly like, not even just their player names, but like Rose Lavelle, there's like a like a Cincinnati themed Rose Lavelle t shirt or whatever that's where she's from, that breaking tea. I mean it doesn't even have to be the league. Like I think there are so many opportunities that like because we're only in year two and so much focus has been like where are they playing, where do they live? Like I think the next couple of years you're going to start to be able to see a little bit more creativity and it's going to be so fun. And I also think the players looking at this upcoming draft year, some of the personalities that you're going to see in the league over the next couple of years, is going to make this even more fun.
Speaker 1:Like I think that you know you're watching Worlds and you're looking at Abby Murphy and, like you know, abby Rock is already a player that people know and like she's not just known because she's a good player. She's known for her attitude, she's known for her personality. There's a ton of those girls coming into the league in the next couple of years and the more that you see stuff like that. I mean, I think the P2HL can outpace the NHL and its ability to market the personalities of players, and we're already in a good spot with that. Not that it's like, I mean the bar is kind of low, unfortunately but I think the P2HL just-.
Speaker 3:That's a good take, I like it.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're already doing pregame fits in a way that is different. It is in a way that is more. You know. I think that women's sports sort of. I think fans of women's sports, who are not a lot of fans of women's sports, are not necessarily global sports fans A lot of fans of women's sports are coming to this from a place of, like, I want to know the narrative, I want to know the story, I want to know the relationships between these players. If two players hit each other on the ice, I want to know if they played against each other in college. I want to know if there's some reason why these girls might not like each other. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I think that there are people that watch the NHL that way, but I think for a lot of us because so many of us didn't grow up playing hockey like even for me I grew up an athlete there was no infrastructure for me to play hockey. In Atlanta, I played soccer and then I played lacrosse and then I learned how to skate at 25 and started playing beer league Like there's so many of us with that story that you're already thinking about marketing female athletes in a different way. I don't think we need to take the NHL playbook and I don't think they are. So I think over the next five years you're going to see a huge change in the way these players are marketed, what that means for them individually as like owners of their own brand, and also what that's able to do to grow the league itself and to grow the sport also what that's able to do to grow the league itself and to grow the sport.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you for clarifying.
Speaker 3:What I was doing was showcasing the old school model with, you know, the brands that have previously been in place, but realistically, there's nothing stopping Doug Lynch and Zenkai Sports from doing something specific with PWHL players, like how he's hooking up Leah John for the Epson tour in the golf space with CSM, right, like there's worlds where you can overlap and take advantage, especially when, to your point, there's no infrastructure in place, there's no rules, and they're dying for it. Like players, fans, everyone wants it. They're like, okay, how do I get a PWHL t-shirt? You're like, oh, there's's one website and they might be sold out. It's like, oh, sick, whereas if you were doing the same thing for an NHL t-shirt, you'd have 46 different websites all bidding for those. And it's like, to your point, it's just a little bit more time, a little bit more emphasis on what is there, and all it's going to take is a couple of case studies with a couple of businesses that actually build out the infrastructure product, and then I'm like, oh sure, like we've been missing the boat here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're seeing that a little bit now too, and honestly, I think expansion is a little bit that as well, because they will not. Mark Walter's not going to own all these teams in five years. He doesn't want to. I think no one would ever go into this with that being the intention. It is something that you can do in the short term, but it makes sense in the long term for these to be individually owned teams and I think you're seeing this.
Speaker 1:A ton with Quebec city is a really great example. They've been very vocal about like we want a team and there are people here who will buy a team and support a team financially. I think that you know you've seen NWSL expansions go for millions of dollars over the last couple years. I don't know if we're at that level yet, but people want teams, cities want teams, big names in cities want teams. I mean, maybe maybe you know the senators owners want to buy a team. Maybe you know one of the reasons you're going to Vancouver is because there is someone in Vancouver whether it's the Canucks owners or somebody else in Vancouver who wants in on this, and after the first five or six people say I want in and I'm in and here's what it's done for me. It just kind of snowballs from there snowballs from there.
Speaker 3:Let's end this conversation with some predictions Bold, not so. We already covered kind of what we'd love to see. As far as adjustments in the CBA To your point, maybe we're not at the millions valuations yet, but, like hypothetically speaking, where do you see it? What would be that number if you were to throw a dart out there? And are there any other predictions that you'd put out there as far as reach, scale players, athletes, where there's kind of specific, maybe opportunities that you would see? Again, you're the expert in the space. I just get to be the one that asks the questions and sits back and listens to your wisdom. So the floor is yours, Eleni.
Speaker 1:I need to look up the Seattle Reign. Okay, so the Seattle Reign, which is the NWSL team in Seattle, was acquired for $58 million in 2024. In 2024. I have to think that a P2HL team I mean it's got to be in the $20 million range. If you're thinking about long-term growth, it depends on the market.
Speaker 3:That's conservative too.
Speaker 1:It is, no, it is conservative, and I'm doing that because we don't know exactly how much money you can make. Yet it's a little easier with an NWSL team. That league's been around for 12 years. Maybe, if you're looking at a team in a place like Vancouver where you pulled 19,000 people, I mean, 20,000 is like an absolute floor. Sorry, 20 million is an absolute floor to me, me, I, yeah. I don't know, we'll see what happens. I think for the first couple of teams, maybe you sell low just so that you can have individual owners and that's fine, but I think that you, I mean, I think these teams are worth a lot of money.
Speaker 1:I think the concept of the team is worth so much money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm bullish on this for sure. Obviously, that's why we're in the space. But like I personally am like yo, I, yo, I feel like I could put together enough people to find 20 million. So, you know, if the Aquilini's, I actually would love to allow myself the opportunity to run an organization properly in Vancouver, because there hasn't necessarily been an organization that's run properly in Vancouver.
Speaker 1:I would trust you.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you, I figured you might, but here's the thing you have enough people and you actually can be really strategic with this and have athlete ownership. And when I say that, like, have players own a percentage of the team, right, and that's when you can go really deep and really incentivize athletes to showcase the benefits of being a part of an organization, what that can bring to the table, what it's like after your career to still be associated with an organization, like those are the kind of ideas that I think you know we've. There's no reason why we can't be putting that out there and making those things happen, right.
Speaker 1:I mean the premier lacrosse league does that the players have equity in the team. I mean, I think that that is huge and I always, like I was at a baseball game the other day and my fiance said something disparaging about the green Bay Packers which, like, I don't care about the green Bay Packers as a football fan, but I was like no, like I will not tolerate Green Bay Packers slander because it is the only collectively owned professional sports team in North America and we need more of that. I mean, I think that it's. I think that that's a space in which, like, even if you're selling these teams to individual owners as a majority share, I think the players should get equity. I think they should want equity. I would love to have equity.
Speaker 1:Like, I think that this is a space where this is the time to get in. Like, if you wait five years to get in on this, you are going to kick yourself. You're going to be buying when it's high. You buy when it's low. Looking up, which is now, I mean the Olympics are next year, that's going to be huge. The amount of eyes on teams before and after the Olympics is going to be massive because a lot of Olympians are going to be playing in this league Not all of them, but a lot of them. So if I could do it right now, I would do it right now, no question. I mean, I am doing it in this way. I kind of I didn't necessarily get into this space to make money. I think that's a secondary thing for me, but it also like it is so special to be associated with an area of sports that is breaking new ground and growing at this pace, and I think we should all be in on it. That's what I think.
Speaker 3:I love it. Like I said, this is the stuff that they write textbooks about, and hopefully we can be a part of that on the right side of history. Um, I appreciate everything that you're doing for csm. It's amazing. Um, our hockey division has continued to skyrocket thanks to you. Yo final question how the heck do you end up in lander's hockey pool and when I say hockey pool, I mean fantasy hockey, and I hear you kind of kick his butt too at times do I?
Speaker 1:I, I haven't checked.
Speaker 1:Little birdie told me the answer to me kicking his butt is just that Austin Matthews is who I built my team around and I inherited that. So what happened was that there was someone that he was friends with who was in this pool and was like I don't want to do this anymore, it's a legacy league. He texted me. He was like do you want in on this? And I was like sure, that's yeah, All right. Like well, I made him show me who was on the roster first Cause I was like am I inheriting garbage? Because if that's the case, then no, and it was like a basically pretty good team, except for the goalies, and I was like okay, I can probably fix that in a year or two. Like that's one position of need. Austin Matthews is going to keeping Austin Matthews for the foreseeable future. For the foreseeable future, you know, it was like a decently built enough team.
Speaker 1:I got a shout out Lander's fiance, Lindsay. We executed a great trade this season. I think worked out really well for both of us. It was a pleasure doing business with her. Anytime that I can humble I'm the only woman in this pool, so anytime I can humble any man in this space, I think that I am sort of that is something that I am required to do when I have the opportunity to do it. So unfortunately he's going to be useless to me after the first round when the Leafs get bounced, but for the time being, I'm really appreciating Austin Matthews' ability to put up points and rocket me up the standings.
Speaker 3:That's pretty much it, we love it. We love that answer. Thank you so much. The way we wrap up every episode.
Speaker 1:Eleni, as you know, we ask our guests their biggest piece of advice for the next gen. You've got it from a couple different angles. 25-year-old picking up the skates, allowing athletes about the most is creating your own luck. Like you can't wait for something lucky to happen to you. Luck is really more about being in the right position when stuff happens. So you got to kind of create your own luck by working hard, being a good person you know, doing favors for people, being there when people need you, thinking about your next step as a long-term thing and not just kind of shooting from the hip, being intentional about the conversations you have, the relationships you build, all of that stuff you build your own luck. Stuff starts to go your way. Yeah, I think you can be responsible for wherever you go next.
Speaker 3:That's it. That's the pod folks. Folks, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2:Hope you have a great rest of your day all right, everybody that's gonna do it for us today here at the athletes podcast. We hope you enjoyed. That was eleni domestic has. She is again the best. I've got nothing but amazing things to say about her. I'm really excited to see where cookstark management goes with her in it. As always, this is free. We do need you to fulfill the athletes agreement, which is to like, subscribe, follow, do whatever you can to support the podcast. It means a ton to us. Let's just keep interviewing awesome people like Eleni. Let's just keep moving forward. So, yeah, hope you guys all have a great week coming up and we'll see you in the next one.
