In this conversation I got to ask him how he feels differently about the coffee industry since our last conversation.
I highly recommend you listen to Ep #27 first, or as a refresher because we refer to that conversation frequently in this episode
In this episode I follow up with him on his thoughts on:
Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com
Support the show on Patreon to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.
And if you don't want to commit, show your support here with a one time contribution: PayPal
Sign up for the newsletter for behind the scenes pictures.
To connect with Mark:
fincarosenheim.com
Instagram
Email: Info@fincarosenheim.com
Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee
In this conversation I got to ask him how he feels differently about the coffee industry since our last conversation.
I highly recommend you listen to Ep #27 first, or as a refresher because we refer to that conversation frequently in this episode
In this episode I follow up with him on his thoughts on:
Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com
Support the show on Patreon to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.
And if you don't want to commit, show your support here with a one time contribution: PayPal
Sign up for the newsletter for behind the scenes pictures.
To connect with Mark:
fincarosenheim.com
Instagram
Email: Info@fincarosenheim.com
Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee
Hello friends. And welcome to episode 53. A few days ago, I was hanging out on YouTube and the algorithm showed me a video of a friend of the podcast, mark from Finca Rosenheim in Peru. Mark was my guest in episode 27. Back in November, 2020. If you are new to the podcast and haven't yet listened to episode 27, I highly recommend you listen to that conversation first, because much of today's conversation is in reference to what mark said in that initial conversation. And I was reflecting on the coincidence of having mark on episode 27 and that he popped up again in my consciousness, close to episode 54. But then I realized that it's been several months since I got to sit with you and record a new episode. And that I would compromise the poetic symmetry and release this as episode 53 and not episode 54. My darlings so much has happened since I last talked with you in January. Nick. And I arrived in Guatemala in February and got straight to work. We were able to process 472 Quintales. Which is 47,000 pounds of coffee cherry for a very special relationship with Camera Obscura in Russia. You'll hear mark, make a reference to this saying that we are both coffee producers now. However, Nick and I did not buy a farm. But we are lending our efforts into making bigger batches of coffee from a farm in Antigua Guatemala. So for the next harvest, we are sending a container to the United States. And if you're interested in buying some yeast, treated coffee made by me and Nick. Please send a message to info dot Lucia coffee@gmail.com. That's info dot L U X I a C O F F E e@gmail.com. I'm also happy to announce that fermentation training camps will continue. So if you didn't make it to the camps in Colombia, you still have a chance to come hang out and learn about processing and fermentation. In June, I will be in Bandung, Indonesia for FTC. Last I heard there was only one ticket left for that event, but maybe by now, by the time we actually get this episode out, we'll probably be sold out, but there are still openings for FTC in Antigua, in December. So all details of dates and pricing are available on my website. And that's lucia.coffee. L U X I a dot C O F F E E. In addition to the big move and working almost full-time processing coffee, we have also inadvertently started an informal dog sanctuary in Guatemala. And living with 12 to 20 dogs make sleeping well and recording a podcast to very difficult. So, if you are interested in that at all, you can follow the furry adventures of all the dogs that we live with on my Instagram. Which will also have a link in the show notes. So beside the chaotic noise situation that we have going on, there has also been a longer than planned delay in recording new episodes, because we have been putting our efforts into developing the coffee community over on Patreon and discord. Even though it has been five months since a new podcast episode here in this kind of space, we are regularly getting together for office hours and recording those sessions and having those available on Patreon. We've also started a Spanish office hours to be inclusive of more coffee producers. I often hear from listeners of the podcast who have strong English skills and listening, but feel more limited in their speaking ability. So we created a Spanish channel and Spanish office hours. So you can all communicate more freely. You'll also hear mark and I referenced the discord office hours frequently during this episode. Mark has, such a great attitude about his role in coffee. And he's very generous about sharing his experiences, both in conversation, but also through many videos on his Instagram. His short videos, give you a glimpse into the concerns and celebrations of a coffee producer. Often we leave it to coffee professionals and educators to speak about copy producers, but it's rare to hear directly from coffee producers about their motivations and challenges. Mark's videos, bring us into his world of coffee, producing with good information that is usually accompanied by a fun or sometimes moody soundtrack. If you'll remember from the previous episode Mark and, I struggled to stay positive about the future of coffee. In fact, he said he was looking to escape coffee. The episode is titled searching for the escape velocity of coffee. And now more than two and a half years later, I wondered how mark felt about the state of coffee. And if he was still looking to get out. In today's episode, I follow up with him on his thoughts on copy certifications. Competitions. His relationship with social media today, sharing on Reddit, reinvesting in the farm. Labor availability. What a coffee picker makes in a day in his region. Opening up new markets, coffee, tourism, beer yeast. Fermentations micro lots. Reforesting his farm and wastewater treatment. All right. Let's get started with mark. I'm Mark and welcome. Thanks for spending the morning with me.
Mark:Glad to hear from you again, Lucia.
Lucia:Can you please share where you are physically right now?
Mark:Right now I'm in Villa Rica in our farm called Finca Rosenheim. We are at almost the geological center of Peru, what we call the high jungle. And it's a really nice day getting ready for harvest. Start next week.
Lucia:Yes, it's very exciting. So I really appreciate you letting me steal these moments before you start your next harvest, because I also wanted to know where you are. Besides physically where you are emotionally, because I was re-listening to our conversation. We had it like October, November of 2020 and now we are in 2023. So you've have a few more harvests under your belt and we started a lot of like loose, like a lot of Point that I felt like were kind of loose. Like it was sort of like, what's gonna happen? And so I think that if you listen to that conversation again, I think a lot of people have the question, well, did Mark escape coffee? Is he still looking to get out? You know, there's a lot of things that we can kind of come back on. So I have a ton of questions for you, but I just wanted to, let's start there. Let's say, how are you feeling emotionally for this harvest? You said a little bit nervous, but that's normal. So you didn't leave coffee, you're still in coffee.
Mark:I'm still in coffee and the last two years have been very different from my experiences before. My plans are still ongoing, but right now I think I'm, I'm just with this hill in front of me, which is getting the harvest started. They're so, It's just one more week that we have we start on May 29th, so it's one more week, and I just have this infinite checklist of things to do before we start. So I'm kind of just focused on that, on the big picture. Yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely different. I, I think I, I don't stress that much about what other people are doing. I, huh. How can I say this? I think my job has has changed also from, from the time when we spoke to now. So before I was most worried about keeping the lights on and making this whole thing just work. And now it's, it's, it's been two good years. So I'm thinking about more how to improve, how to keep it working, how to, to make it more efficient, how to make it better or, or even how to build on, on top of this, right.
Lucia:something that I really noticed is how much you're sharing on social media, and that was a big topic of our conversation last time, was just the role that Instagram and social media has as a producer, trying to build your own brand and then kind of your own personal kind of your, your personal struggles with how to present an image and what you're actually trying to present. So I'm wondering how has your approach to what you share on social media changed?
Mark:No, I don't think so. It's, it's always, at the beginning, it was trying to be didact didactal, like showing people how coffee works, but it, it always turned out to be just my experience in coffee and I. And that's it. It's, it's if I think that there's something interesting to share, if I'm excited about something, like I think my last video is me pointing at four walls of concrete and saying, this is my siphon. It's new and it's smooth. And it's, I'm so excited and I don't, I don't know if people will actually understand what I'm doing, but it's, it's just sharing my experience in coffee and, and. And my ideas right, about what I, what I'm thinking, what I'm seeing in the industry, and, and having that, you know, directness. And just speaking my mind has, you know, helped me find people that appreciate that. Right. And people that also talking to you, that was really interesting. It, it, I got interesting feedback. I got to meet some other people. People heard from us and, and you know, like, I know there's people like-minded like me, there's people that, that see the industry like me that, that see, they're not afraid to confront that. There's like, it's not perfect, but we're still trying to find the good in it. And, and yeah, I, I think that I, I go more through there and I stop worrying about, know, the mess out there.
Lucia:And I think another thing that. Sort of, it came up from, from that conversation where, and it originally, because you were in such a frustrated place when we connected, we connected over, you know, some of some people on Instagram just being really disingenuous and kind of dishonest and, and we were sort of going go, going back and forth over that. And that's kind of when I caught you. So I definitely had that kind of perspective going in. And we even talked in that recording about, How much to share and how, how honest to be, just because, you know, one of the themes was, well, we don't just wanna be bummers all the time. We don't just wanna like complain and talk about like, is. I, I don't wanna be a bummer all the time and I don't wanna be like always looking at, you know, some of these things. But I think what came out of it was if we don't, or at least like when you say like, this is how I'm feeling, you can attract the people that are also similarly frustrated. Not just to have a complaint party, but to try to do things a little bit differently. And one of the things that I noticed that you're doing to me, it seems a little bit different, is that you seem much more open in sharing the. Kind of the stumbling blocks or some of the things that you're concerned about. You know, you shared videos about how much rain you were getting and how difficult that is on the roads. You were sharing videos about one that just cracked me up. You have a new truck that you managed to like get stuck in some position and just the realities of, you know, you were showing pictures. There's another really beautiful reel where you were showing. The farm and all of your coffee in bloom and it was really beautiful. And then you put up these pictures of other people's farms that have much more of like a monocrop, not as much shade, like full sun coffee farms with like 15 times as many coffee blossoms and just feeling a little bit discouraged by that. And so I just feel like you're putting a little bit more of your personality out there and not feeling, so I at least I'm my. Question is, do you still feel that pressure to present like the beautiful parts of coffee?
Mark:No, not at all. Like I. I found people that a appreciate what I do. I found people that value the way I present coffee and you know, there's, there's always gonna be the people that just, you know, that we bonded over that present the very romanticized story about coffee or the exotic about coffee. And there's people that will, you know, buy into that and it's fine because they, they. That's what they looking for, but there's other people and that's, they are the ones that I am interested in meeting and, and it has happened that through Instagram, through your podcast, through. Through, you know, just saying things out there that I've gotten in touch and that these are roasters, these are coffee drinkers and, and there's generally some people that really wanna know what's happening here. And that's the best way for me to. To do it right. We set how there's limitations to these, I don't know, contents and certifications, et cetera. My way of, you know, getting people to know what happens at the origin of coffee is just being open and telling my whole experience, and that is the, the good things and the bad things. But, you know, it's, It would be boring if it was just the good things, I think. And it also makes my life interesting, and that's what I'm interested in sharing, right. The oops moments and the Oh no, and oh and frustrations and challenges, but, but we're here and, and we're still doing it. So, yeah. I think it goes through there.
Lucia:I love this lesson because I hope that other producers that are listening that have maybe been hesitant to share their true feelings can, can have a little bit of comfort by knowing that if you're not. As genuine, you're not gonna find the people that you want to find. And so going out a little bit on the limb where it seems kind of scary, where you're being very vulnerable and you were incredibly vulnerable in that conversation, I think that's what allowed people to find you. That's what allowed people to say, Hey, I appreciate what that person is doing. But if you don't let people in, then you know, I just, I feel like I talk to a lot of producers who are very frustrated, but I don't see them. You know, kind of taking those steps to go outside of their comfort zone, or they're just still like too stuck. And so I hope this is encouraging to be like, it's, it's possible, it's possible to find the people that you, that you want to connect with, but you have to shine that light and you have to say, here I am and I hope you wanna join me.
Mark:Yeah, totally agree. I, I also follow some producers in, in on Instagram and there's some producers doing exactly that, you know, also talking about the challenges and not just beautiful pictures.
Lucia:So, have you been able to find a little bit more of a community in the space that you're in? Last time we talked about, you know, some of your, you've had really supportive neighbors, but maybe not necessarily the, the type of community that you were looking for.
Mark:I think it's, it's still kind of the same. It's also in these two years, it's been different. It has changed that my family now lives in Germany and I'm kind of more alone here, but there's, especially during the harvest and when I have to take my coffee to be processed in town for export, there's, there's really cool people that I can talk to that are other producers
Lucia:you said that your family, a lot of your family moved back to Germany. Why did they decide to do that?
Mark:Well, Peru, it's complicated. Peru, it's a complicated land. But my, my sister had a son, so for her it was just easier and better to, to go to Germany, where we also have family and now my mom is of course following her grandchild. So, yeah. I'm basically been in charge of the farm, so it's not that different.
Lucia:So do you feel any of that pressure of security? It's something that's come up in our conversations before in our discord conversations about some producer sharing a little bit more. Paula from Mexico was sharing about, she had a break in into her, her farm, and it was just very frustrating to feel like you're doing all of these things that are trying to help the community. And then it's the same community that kind of comes in and. Causes a mess. So I was wondering if there's anything related to that or totally different.
Mark:No, that that is, that plays a great part in, in our everyday life here. Right? So when I just started working here, for example, we. Nobody would go, we have a road in front of the house. No. Like nobody would go there. And at nights you really felt like alone and electricity not always there. And you have all your coffee, all of your year's, like. Production in your warehouse and you know, we, even if coffee is at good price, you can have someone that just goes in and carries one bag of coffee and goes out and, and that like it has happened to us, but. Then we've, we've slowly, like where we are, we've started having houses built in front and we're close to the, to the town. So we're actually getting, like urbanized, our neighbor is selling parcels and they're building houses. So there's more people, there's mo more movement. You feel a little bit safer. But then if coffee, you know, coffee gets a better price, then it's also more Enticing to have a break in or, or, you know, just in the road between the town and, and, and the farm. You always like, you don't know if you're gonna get stopped because it's, yeah, security is an issue and police are not very effective here. But it's not only security in that way. It's also security. Like the whole political system here is just so broken right now. And there's how do you say, strikes street where they block the roads and people are, are really, I. Un unhappy with the government and we've had like major unrest. So you got, you got all that instability and uncertainty and that really, for example, affected us last year that we had to export our coffee. So it's, it. It's that, it's the, the roads between here and Lima. You never know when the road's gonna be open, if, if there's an accident, if there's like a landslide. So it's, it's all that uncertainty. Mixed together, that, that really just adds, I, I, I always call it the adventure of living in Peru and that, you know, sometimes you don't want your life to be such an adventure all the time, but it definitely, I have to see it that way in order to not, you know, not worry or, or spin it in a good way.
Lucia:Yeah. And I think something that maybe a lot of consumers at home may not realize is that you'd think, okay, well green coffee, like you still have to process it. And there's a lot of things to do after, but in producing countries, especially like the structure in Colombia, and I'm sure in in Peru, green coffee is, is, is money, is is a currency. And there are places where you can just directly change it for money. So it's much more like somebody breaking into your store and taking. You know, cash out of your out of your cash register. It's, it's a very direct and it's very tempting and there's a lot of, like you said, even if they just take a kilo, that could be a day's wages for somebody. And they can very easily exchange that for money. So it's a very common practice.
Mark:In town there's places where people can just take one bag and sell it, and it, it can be 200 soce, right? It it, it's like four day wages.
Lucia:Well, and there's no questions asked. So, so the system itself kind of, you know facilitates this type of like black market. Like you just bring coffee and no one says, is that your coffee? Did you grow it? Where did it come from? No, like we said, we talked about before, there's very little traceability. You just, someone brings in money. It's like a, like a money laundering. You just bring in some coffee and they give you money and no questions asked.
Mark:And now think of us, we're, we're like 360 kilometers from Lima, but it's going over the Andes, right? And it's just this one road. So when our coffee goes from the Eureka to the port of ca, that moment is you, you have no idea that it's, it's so dangerous that you know. Truckloads of coffee get lost sometimes. And or you know, the, the, oh, the truck gets the door open, people start taking stuff out. Or there can be an accident and there so much stuff can happen. And yes, we take an insurance, but you know, insurance companies until they pay or they will claim so many, so much technicalities that it's, it's really like the riskiest and like the worst moment when your coffee goes from villa rica to Lima to the port of ca.
Lucia:A hundred percent. I mean, it's like you're sending you know, a truck with gold and it's just like on this road, totally unprotected. And as you said, you said it's all of your many people's years work. Just good luck. Good luck to you. So talking about this price thing I think is really interesting because that's sort of the context that we were talking about it with Bala in the Discord was the, these hidden costs of producing coffee. So she's a young female in Oaxaca. She's I think 27. And she's doing this by herself. It's her grandfather's farm, but she doesn't really have a lot of family around to, you know, also be contributing to this effort. So for her, as a young female in Oaxaca, going into these regions, having this insecurity, feeling very. Unsafe or just, you know, just uneasy. Like, how do you put a price that? How do you, how she's like, how do I put that, how do I build that into my cost of production, into, you know, doing this thing of coffee? And so she was having these, a little bit of an existential conversation of like, Do I keep doing this? What is it worth to me to keep putting myself in these dangerous situations just to make coffee? And we, you know, obviously didn't come to any conclusions, but I just wanted to have a little bit more of this presence of this conversation that because we tend to romanticize coffee so much, we don't really get to talk about that other part of the insecurity and some of these, again, hidden costs. I was just wondering if you had anything else to say about that.
Computer Audio-2:I, I think what you're saying is, is a great. Way to. To, to explore that subject for, for me is, is what I sometimes try to do with my videos showing, hey, it's not just, you know to harvest on time or to, to dry the coffee on time. It's, you know, following my coffee all the way to the processing plant because it's like one bag gets lost or, you know, it's doing this trip and I don't know, it's gonna be, take me 10 hours or 20 hours, I don't know. And, and that's like, The the things that you have to communicate to the consumers that, that are not, not easy, that are not easy to share. And, and for me, that's part of the risk, right? That we as producers have, it's not only the weather or the price, but it's like insecurity and political stability and inflation and all of these things together. Yeah.
Lucia:Along those lines about price, one of the things that we talked about last time was you, at that point in 2020, you were still selling all of your coffee in, was it to Germany to a single reseller.
Computer Audio-2:Yes, we, we have a, a big customer in Germany, which is, I see it as a distributor and they sell our coffee all in, in Europe.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And you were looking to expand to new markets, so you were hoping to get into, you know, maybe the United States. So have you been able to do that? Have you been able to find new outlets for your coffee?
Computer Audio-2:Well, with our client in Europe, things have been really going very well. And I think the, the barrier to expand to other markets have been because in Europe the. The client in Hamburg buys most of our productions, so we don't have much, any more coffee or single origins, so we just sell what we produce here in our plantations. So they buy everything. There's no, no other markets to open. What I was trying to do was do the micro lots and maybe with those, find some new markets. It's been, it's been interesting. It hasn't worked so well at the beginning, but. This year, for example, or well better said, last harvest to this harvest I managed to sell. Finally, like for the first time I managed to sell all my micro lots and so I'm happy. We, we just sent like the three last bags of our dos cientas horas. We sent it to Vietnam and we've established a new relationship there. It's the first time that we ever sent a coffee to Asia, so I'm very excited about that. Nothing in America yet, but it's interesting that I've finally been able, or it's, you know, exciting that I've finally been able to sell my micro lots and I'm excited and I'm like hopeful and interested in doing a better work with them this year.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And when you say micro lot, what size is that to you?
Computer Audio-2:Last year we produced dos cientas horas, which was 200 hours of fermentation, and it, that was around 12 bags. That's what we do around, yeah, a micro, it's around 12 bags. I'd say like one guardiola full.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Okay. And then you've also done fermentations with beer yeast, right?
Computer Audio-2:Yes, yes. That was really cool. But for example, we tried doing it that last year. Didn't work though. We changed the recipe a little bit and it didn't produce the same coffee, so we had no micro lot for the Monte Burracho we call it. So this coffee we work with I have a neighbor that has a brewery. Have I told you about this one?
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):No, but I watched the videos.
Computer Audio-2:Okay, so we have a neighbor that is also a coffee producer, but he, he started a brewery and he was able to give us like whole buckets full of beer yeast when he purchased the tanks. And we tried it with that and. I would say 2021, we got excellent results. So we, we did a comparison about coffee. We ferment normally, and then the one we did with the, with the beer yeast, and it was amazing the difference. So we offered that as Monte Burracho. But last year we. I don't know. I decided to do leave it for three days instead of two, and it just didn't come out the same. It wasn't like this ex Wow. So we couldn't make a micro load out of it. I don't think it was justified.
Lucia:And so was that something that you just kind of blended more into your volume? Coffee?
Mark:Yes. No, it was good coffee, but it wasn't exceptional
Lucia:Mm-hmm.
Mark:It could just be blended with everything else. I mean,
Lucia:obviously my brain goes into the processing and how, cuz that's my job to make it consistent and make it taste the same every time. And so might I
Mark:know, I, I was like, what would Lucia say?
Lucia:the first thing Luci would say is beer yeast tends to have that level of inconsistency. That's why I work with the yeast that I do. Like I that, that's really common beer yeast it's like you can have amazing results, but it's really hard to hit that target every time. Mm-hmm. Anyway, we don't have to get into processing cuz that's not the point of this conversation. You and I can talk about that later offline if you want. But I think the, the other thing that I wanted to ask you about was, you know, you're making these micro lots, you're doing. Innovative processing. You're, you're trying to find like the rainbow of flavor in your coffee. And something that we touched on last time was the double-edged sword of competitions. So I'm wondering if you're still submitting your coffee to competitions and how your view has changed or maybe not changed about the role of competitions in specialty coffee and then in Peru specifically.
Mark:No, I have not submitted my coffee to competitions. And since the pandemic, I would say that I've seen less competitions going on here in Peru, at least. We still got the cup of excellence. And because this is handled by like one I don't know, it's like one company or it's like a collaboration of different, like big players in Peru. So they're mostly commercializers of coffee. So I don't, I don't think I have a, a place there. We have a like once a year we have a big coffee fair
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Mm-hmm.
Mark:or expo and, it's, it really, I don't have a, I don't see much value in me being there. And yeah, I think it's different way of, it's, it's the other way of commercializing coffee and marketing coffee. It's not, not really compatible with, with what I do. So, so, no, I haven't been participating.
Lucia:And you're also not really looking to participate. You're not trying to make competition lots so that you can submit them. You're just working on your micro lots and you're kind of going a around the system, right?
Computer Audio-2:Yes. And, and I don't see like opportunities or for, for that. We, we used to participate in this oh, what's a V P A in, in Paris That was coffee roasted at origin. But the, I don't think that really is like, Brings me the value or, or shows what I wanna show, especially in my relationship with the clients of my clients, right? The roasters. So I think like their opinion, like it is much more important than some.
Lucia:Definitely. So another thing I wanted to follow up on is we had talked about coffee Reddit last time and how had very little room for processing and it was just much more of like the showmanship of coffee and the, the equipment and the, and the toys. And I also saw a video of you using your Aero press. So what's your relationship with coffee Reddit now?
Computer Audio-2:I don't participate in it. I, I've given up, I joined for this standart community. You, you know what that is? The, from the magazine?
Lucia:Mm-hmm. Yes. Standart.
Mark:I, I think there's, well, you know, it's, it's the, that the coffee conversation does not go around the producer and, and the origin doesn't, does not mean that it's not valid, right? So it's just, for example, I think in your discord, there's much more value for me than going through these communities because, Yeah, I can be there to answer a couple of questions. Somebody's having questions about coffee processing or coffee at Origin, great. But if not, then yeah. It's just not a place where, where I will find the people that will bring, bring value. And, you know, the Aero Press comes from people that heard. So I, when we did the, the, the podcast and some Philip Schauberger from Cafe Macher, I don't know if you know
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):I love Philip. Yes, he, he and I worked together in Honduras back when he was working for Cafe Royal, so I know him very well. Love him.
Computer Audio-2:He is great. He's, he is really great. And like he said, Hey, you spoke with Lucia. Let's do a podcast. And like he was at, we, we had an interview with him in his podcast in German, which was, well, well my German the thing is it. Through like hearing him, I also got like people that say, Hey, I'm going to Peru and I'm gonna be there for a couple of weeks. The can I visit the farm? And that, that way last year I got two young men at different moments. One from Germany that was Jacob and one from Switzerland that came to the farm and worked, and I just gave them a place to stay and. I'm amazed because they, they just had to like help me in the mornings with work, and I'm so amazed that they did all kinds of work. Like they didn't shy away from anything. Like here's a shovel, and they would go and work with the shovel, but they also brought to me a lot of their perspective, right? For example, Jacob is an enthusiast roaster. So I, I told him, here's my roaster, like my really old roaster, learn how to use it and then show me how to use it. And Sam was doing work here and then interviewing a lot of coffee. Producers. So like I had his perspective and he was like, Hey, you should talk with Algrano, right? And it's like, okay, I got motivated to talk with Al Grano and they, I eventually sold some micro lots through there. But he also was like, Hey, the arrow press the arrow, press the Arrowspace. Like, okay, I've gotta try the Arrow press. So I finally got to use the arrow press and he showed me how. And yeah, like that video was acknowledging that he was right there. You can do really good coffee with the Arrow Press.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):So how long did they stay on the farm with you?
Computer Audio-2:I think Jacob, stayed like six weeks and Sam I think was more like four weeks.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Wow. So like an internship exchange. They came and gave their labor and you provided the roof and food.
Computer Audio-2:Exactly something like that, that they really helped me. For example, I was, I'm, I'm building my house now and I remember Jacob carrying all that wood from one place to another, and it's like going, wow, Jesus, young people. And it's like, I never thought that some guy from Germany would just come and be like, so hands on and I was amazed. Yeah, it was really, that was a really nice experience, Lucia and, and you know, Having their perspective, it really like was helpful for me too.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):I, I love that. I'm kind of working on An episode about coffee travel, just some kind of like tinkering ideas and just different ways to make coffee travel, like giving back. I think so often the green buyer formula is a little bit more extractive. It's more, you know, kind of coming in, seeing and, and being tourists in a coffee setting. But this, this twist of being able to give something back where you're staying, I think is a really interesting model that I think I, I hope a lot more people. Explore. So talking about building your house, one of the things that we touched on last time was this because of the price. Fluctuation because of the incredible amount of uncertainty in coffee production and the pressures of climate change that it's often very difficult for producers to make investments back into their farm because you're just surviving and you really don't know what Brazil's gonna do and what the future's gonna do. And you have all of this external pressure. But what I've been seeing is that in these last two years, you have been able to reinvest a lot in your farm from equipment to, you know, fixing your roads. To the things that you're building. So can you talk about how you've decided what to invest in, what investments you've made and how you've decided kind of the, the priority of those investments?
Computer Audio-2:Yes, of course. Happily to talk about that. So what I, what I told you the last time we spoke, it's maybe that, you know, I, I sell my coffee, I get the money at the end of the year, but then, And I know I cannot spend, I cannot invest. Especially also if there's a problem, like financing is not so easy to get. So what I would just do is just plan and plan and plan. So finally when things worked out, and we really had a good year in 2021 first things were like the most urgent, and that was Changing the truck, you know our trucks are, nothing gets moved without our trucks. Right. And when I started here, we had two really old, really, really old trucks. And it was just the stress that you never knew if they were gonna make it. So, you know, oh, the truck broke out. Okay, let's use the other truck to go and pick up the coffee again. And, and then you end up like at, at 11 o'clock at the night processing the coffee. So, It was important to get rid of my, like, old pickup truck. That was my car that had to help in the farm. And I got one pickup truck for the farm just for work. Right? It, it's a single cabin. And the idea is to have much more mobility with. With, with the, the team, right? They start in the morning and they can get really fast to the place that they have to work, and at some point I want them also bring them to the beneficio to have lunch, and the idea is to have a car for work. And then I needed one car for me to do the trip between the villa rica and Lima and the town and stuff like that. So those were my first investments. Then the beneficio, you know, it's never done. It always is improving. There's always something that you learn that year that you have to change for the next one. But I've been like constantly, like I have a four year plan and it's like expanding a little bit here and expanding the roof, and then expanding a little bit to the side and expanding that roof and building the machines. So everything has to be in one place together, one system. So I've been building slowly on that. But yeah. This year we managed to, maybe you saw it in the video, we managed to finally get a replacement for our old drum dryer. That I'm like, it was for me something that I had to fix every week. Every week it broke down. So we're finally replacing it this year. So we're gonna have, or all our drum dryers, one next to the other, and we will be able to, you know, have. At least not the problem that if you don't dry your coffee fast enough, it can get a moldy flavor. So that is one of the worst enemies here at the farm, and I think we'll be able to not worry about that anymore this year. Finally there's one big investment that I had to do. The, it's, it's nice to be able to have done the house like I did a little studio apartment for me in the beneficio, an office and a laboratory, that wasn't that expensive because we had the wood, but the big expense that I had to work on was on improving the way we process our pulp and our wastewater, and we've really invested a lot of money in that this year. So it's almost finished. That, that's also things that I, I have to get like ready before the harvest because it's, we still have to do the, all the connections and all the tubes and the plumbing and the electricity, but that was really important for me to get done this year. It's also part of the whole plan.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):So let's talk about that lumber. One of your big pushes when we talked last time was reforesting and agro forestry and having Diversifying the coffee crops. So my question is, what other crops do you have and what's your approach been to agro forestry?
Computer Audio-2:It, it's, it's been good. It's like I've, I started small, but this year between last harvest and this harvest, we've installed 12 hectares of forest. So I'm really happy with that, how it's going, how we managed to, like, first I did some tries and some misses. We, we planted trees where we knew that we were going to replace the coffee. There's, for example, we had a lot called Colombia that had the variety, grand Colombia and. That variety was not producing much and the taste wasn't that good. So we've, for example, taken the coffee down, we've planted pine trees. The coffee will regrow. We'll probably have one or more to harvest there, but that's it. And then it's gonna be a forest
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):When you're replanting, when you're reforesting, where are you getting your material?
Computer Audio-2:I'm mostly reforesting with pines and eucalyptus, so we use eucalyptus wherever the ground is very wet. And we use pines where the ground is dry. We have pines that are used here in the area. And they're produced by big nurseries. No, they're not that big nurseries, but you know, there's like really established places that, you know, these trees work well. Yeah, so we get the pines from, from nurseries, but our, like our own farm was an experimental lot for pine trees. That was, was done back in the nineties, and we work with people that are still using those seeds. And then the eucalyptus we buy from some that we've seen in the farm that worked well.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And last time we talked, I think I have a note that you had 40 hectares of coffee. So now, today, do you have more or less because you're reforesting,
Computer Audio-2:We have, we have abandoned a couple of hectares of coffee, so we have places that were not productive and I'm kind of tired of, you know, investing and not, not getting enough coffee from there. So we've. Reduced area a little bit. I would say that we had 39 to be more exact. I would say we have 36 right now.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):You started with 39 now, you've, you know, identified some that were not pulling their weight. So now you have 36. If you are looking out five or 10 years in the future, is that a place that you wanna stay at 36 or would you still like to reduce that coffee area a little bit more?
Computer Audio-2:I, I think we, we've been working on improving the, the, the plantations that we have right now. We've been doing a lot of, which is just planting there where there's holes in the plantation. You know, there's always coffee trees that die or. Stones that were too humid or coffee trees that are not, are too old, so you replace them or plant with there's holes. And we, we also had to learn how to do that better for the sample. Since last harvest, we've done that. Every Saturday we take care of the small plants, like we fertilize them, we clean around them, we clean the weeds around them just to make sure that these little trees grow strong. So yeah, we've been like optimizing the plantations that we already have. So that's gonna make a difference. And then I think I do wanna, we have an experimental lot, we have some geisha and we have some seeds that they were smuggled. So they, they came from Huehuetenango, Guatemala. I don't know what variety they are, but they're really like, I've seen these trees and I really like them. They're very short. They really have like big cherries. So I'm. I think I'm gonna harvest some seats from that and I'm gonna start doing like a whole, like new small lot and, and that's it. Maybe, maybe plant more, one more hectare, but of really like optimized coffee. I'm thinking about these new varieties there are, just to replace the ones we have. My goal is to produce two containers of coffee a year.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And do you have other crops? Are you focused? So right now are you just focusing coffee and lumber or are you having other fruit trees?
Computer Audio-2:I focus only on coffee and reforestation, and you have to thank. Coffee does not give us time to do anything else. So with the people that I have, we are so full, and when the harvest stops, we like, you know, trimming the shadow and replanting and fertilizing and cutting the weeds. It's so much work that. All of the planting of these reforestation with everything we've done with contracts. So for example, Don Placedo has done six hectares and he's like, he was a harvester. And when he finished harvesting, he started to work for me as a contractor or then I got another team called for four brothers, and they're working on the other side of the farm planting and they planted six sectors, more of trees. So it's too, it would be too much to focus on something else right now, on another, on another crop.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And I'm glad you brought up labor as well. I wanted to ask, where does most of your picking labor come from and have you noticed a decline in the availability of labor? Because I haven't been to Peru in many, many years, but in. Colombia, that was an issue. I'm in Guatemala right now. That's very much an issue here in Honduras. Almost every other kind of Central American producer that I talked to says labor is in short supply and they don't really see it improving. So how is the situation in Peru
Computer Audio-2:yes, labor is in short supply and that's one of the reasons I think coffee is going to get harder in the future. I hear a lot from other producers that they're having problems getting staff during off season. Like when, when it's not harvest. it, it's even worse during the harvest, right? So for example, right now we're eight people working all year, but during the harvest we can be up to 50. So my experience has been good. I'm, I, I think I'm very lucky. I, I work with people that have been with us many, many years. Even before that, we, I started here and I think the piece. To, to make these people stay with you. Right. Not to lose them, to keep them happy. It's, we are in, in the Villa rica, we have the town two kilometers from the farm. So we're, we're very lucky. We're very close to the, to the town and it's not, we're not in the middle of the jungle that there's no other options for people. So as, as Arbis give people that like, People that we give jobs. So we have to make our jobs interesting and like more interesting than alternatives. So we have to, like, we compete for that. And that's, that's important. And I think as long as I, keep my workers and the team happy, then I, I won't have a problem with that. And then harvesters, yes, it's. It's, you see it with the people that stop coming and you always keep contact and you see them doing something else, like opening a little store or dedicating to construction or doing moto taxi driving. So yeah, people do other things. But for example, this year, I'm not worried. We, we have a lot of coffee and I think we're very lucky that I know there's people going to come tomorrow, today in the morning. Came harvested so many years with us and he's like, Hey, when, why is, why are you not harvesting yet? It's like we're gonna start on Monday. And it's like, cool, I'm coming with three people. And it's like, perfect. So I'm, I think over the years we've built a relationship with the harvesters that they know. That, that we are here, they know we, we treat them right and they know we have coffee. And that's what's important for them, right? They, for them, it's also an opportunity. It's it's not all year round that they can harvest, but during the harvest it's for them to win extra. So if they know they're gonna go to a place where they can work they can be. They can work. They, they're gonna, they're gonna get paid. Everything's gonna work. Then I know they're gonna come here, so I'm not worried.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And how does it work for, you said you're close to the town, so do people live in town and they come for the day or do you have to house them and have like dorms and on the farm during harvest?
Computer Audio-2:Do you have like a compliment that we call Next to the beneficio where we have people living now we have three guys that live all year round because they come from another town called Alpa from another city. And usually during the harvest, more of their family comes. So we reserve this whole camp for their family and people that come every year from Alba. But since we're very lucky and we're very close to town, are. or foreman. He drives a truck every day to town or well, or to the farm and back. And he brings a lot of people with him. So it's, and now everyone has a, a, a motorcycle or you know, those tuuk toks and people can just come on their own here. To, to harvest it. It was amazing Last year we had so much, like, I think I'm gonna have to expand the, the place that we used to park the bikes because everyone comes with their bike.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):You know, that's really nice to hear because something that is a, a sign of prosperity is people having their own transportation. So what I saw a lot in Colombia and the region where I was, is, yes, there's a lot of motorcycles, but there's a lot of people that are still walking or that, you know, don't have their own mode of transportation. So hearing that you have to have a bigger parking lot for that shows that there's some adequate compensation or more adequate compensation than maybe there's been in the past. So that's a, that's an interesting sign.
Computer Audio-2:Yes, totally. We, we were talking about with, with not so long ago about this, that how many people, when I started, came walking to work and now everyone has. Their, their own bike. Right? And that's, that's really cool that, that shows people are, you know, improving their quality of life. And that's good. Even though you, you, you say something like, oh, maybe they're not so, so good quality. But it's, it's, it gives the people a way to move around and that really is like, it's, it's good. It's helpful.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Yeah. And I'm, I was curious too when you said, you know, you have, you do have a little bit of competition or a little bit of incentive because you wanna keep people coming to you, you wanna keep having a, a, a good labor pool. So is there anything else that you do to kind of incentivize people to pickers to come work for you? Besides. Wages. And I was just gonna share one example. In Colombia where I was living in the region, a lot of farms, a lot of beneficios. If they didn't have wifi, like the pickers didn't wanna come. So I was wondering if there's anything what, like, or the food, like they were really picky about the food and if they didn't have like a good menu, the pickers wouldn't, show up. So are there other things besides just like the wages that you have to do to incentivize people?
Computer Audio-2:You know, it, it sounds very basic. I think a, a big draw to come to work for us, it's been because we're not the easiest, we're not the easiest how do you say this, the farm to pick coffee on, we we're very demanding on, on the quality that, you know, green coffee should not be harvested and the trees should not be damaged, but. Something very basic. And maybe if you think about it, it's, it's kind of sounds dumb, but it's, you pay the people, right? You, you pay them. You don't like withhold money. But then sometimes they come back and say, Hey, yeah, but they, like he was paying more, but he was not really paying, or he was gonna pay at the end of the harvest, or he hadn't enough money, so he now owes me so, That was back then. I think definitely what you say, that once the basic is like met and people like, even other farms are realizing that they can, they really need their harvesters and they cannot treat them bad anymore. So people have more expectations. I know especially on other farms where people live that are further away from town where people live and they don't have like a cell phone signal. People will not want to live there. But for, for us, we, we do have cell phone signal, so it's, it's, I I guess that's not an, it's a non-issue, but I, I am thinking about. Providing them for a better place to eat their meals. Building roofs. I've already built some up in the farm where they can shelter for the rain. Like there's has to be good bathrooms. I'm, I'm thinking about maybe in the future it's so complicated, but it would be. Great to have a, a little bus that brings people here to the farm. So definitely we have to keep improving that. We, we have to keep making it very attractive for harvesters to come here and harvest.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Definitely. So do you pay them? What's the, this typical cycle, is it once every week? Is it every two weeks? How often do people get paid
Mark:I pay them weekly. I. I pay them every Saturday. So they harvest from Saturday to Friday and I pay them we finished the day at on Saturday at one o'clock, and I pay them there
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And sundays are off, or do, do they harvest on Sunday?
Computer Audio-2:Sundays are off.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):And how much does a, a picker make, for example, in, in Colombia an average? Like salary for like a field worker was maybe like 35,000 or 40,000 pesos, which is maybe like$8 to ni to$10 a day. What is it in Peru?
Computer Audio-2:okay, so here in Peru, the, the wages for. Field workers have gone up really high. Like there's, because there's a lot of competition, especially with construction. So wages are, are around 50 solace. A day's work in Cornell that in dollars is around$13. And when they harvest, you know, a regular harvester can get one and a half times that. And a really good harvester can get even like twice of that.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Because you pay for kilo of cherry that they are bringing in.
Computer Audio-2:I pay, I pay per kilo. Yes.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Awesome. Well, the last topic that I really wanted to cover with you that you mentioned a little bit earlier was your wastewater treatment. I was wondering how much the like Peruvian government is requiring for businesses. Like what are the regulations? Are they really strict? Are they pretty hands off? And most of what you're doing is like your own initiative or sort of like how's that balance? Like how did you decide this is something that we need to focus on?
Computer Audio-2:Well, I don't, I don't have certifications. I don't At, at some point, it was interesting when we had one government here in the municipality, they said they were gonna start checking up on beneficios and how they were treating their water. That. Worked maybe for two years and then disappeared. But for me it's like, you know, putting my money where my mouth is. So if I say I wanna do coffee, good. You, you have to, you have to invest in your, your wastewater treatment and your pulp. So it's now that we finally have like How do you say? Money, extra money. This is the moment to improve on those systems, especially because what we had, we've been improving as we could, but you know, it definitely shows and because we have our beneficio in the middle of our farm, it's not like we can throw everything out. We have to take care. We have to respect our land and our little rivers that go through the farm. So we have to, we have to treat our water, we have to treat our pulp.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Yeah, I think this conversation, I want, I wanna have this a little bit more kind of in the open because it's the waste, it's like the hidden part that nobody wants to see or talk about. And it's also really, really different in a lot of countries. So I have a producer that I've been. A client of mine that I've been working with for many years Cecil in, in Jamaica, and he had a farm and he wanted to start processing his own coffee and the government wouldn't allow him to even process his own coffee. All he could do was just sell it until he proved that he had a viable wastewater treatment. And he showed like his ponds. And then at the end he has a little pond where he has like the fish that are alive. To show that the water is, has been treated and it's, it's safe for consumption. But I just thought that was something that was really interesting in that they were so involved that he wasn't allowed to touch his own coffee until he could show that he could responsibly do away with the waste. And I think maybe we have that idea as consumers, maybe we think that's a little bit more common. Instead of, you know, incredibly rare. Where I lived in Colombia, it was just a lot of pollution, a lot of polluting the rivers.
Computer Audio-2:That's, that's totally unheard here.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Exactly, and, and I think that's, I just what I wanted to share was that I think a lot of people. Maybe assume that they think, okay, that there's regulations, that there's standards, that there's people checking the wastewater. And in so many countries, especially in, in Colombia where I was, that was not the case. You were free to pollute as much as you wanted. And very, there was very little checking up and very little regulation. So, Again, for my friend Cecille, he couldn't process his coffee unless he did this system. But for you, you know, it's like you said, it's, it's kind of stupid to just kind of pollute your own area because it's very shortsighted. So obviously, you know, you want to take care of the place where you are, but there's nobody forcing you, there's nobody checking up on you. This is really your own your own, you know, future, thinking about not polluting your area. Right.
Computer Audio-2:Yes. Yes. And, and you know, I wanna be able to show people this is, you know, you're talking about sustainability and you know, birds in the air. I wanna show you how we process our water. That's in important for me. That's like, for me, that's where the value is. And I, I wanna meet the people that are interested in knowing about that. See, you wanna know about your coffee, you wanna know about the origin. Ask them how they process the water and. It's like how they take care of their pets and how they process the water. That's the the most important part.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Absolutely. No, actually when, when I was working in the mill in, in Colombia there, they were asking for a the bank came to visit to just kind of check up on a loan. And one of the things that the, like bank officer mentioned is that he, he uses the state of the farm dogs as a criteria on whether or not he's going to approve the loan or not. So he said if he sees animals, That are taken care of and that look good, he says, okay, I think these people are going to be a good investment to give them this loan. And when he sees dogs that are sick or just in bad condition, he's very, he's a lot less confident to grant that loan. So I, I think that's a really good marker. And you're right, we don't talk enough about wastewater. And so that's another plug for producers listening for the Discord. That's part of this podcast is that's a place where we do talk about wastewater. A lot of producers are sharing pictures of their systems. A lot of yeah, just sort of, you know, trying to get ideas from each other because. Again, there's not a lot of government support. There's not a lot of information about exactly what you should do, and there's no one size fits all because countries are so different. The conditions, the resources are really different. So my experience is that a lot of producers are kind of having to figure it out on their own. And so the Discord is a nice place where people can share like, this is what I've done. This is what's working for us. And so if anyone's interested in buying that kind of coffee, that's where the producers are. And if producers wanna know what other people are doing, it's also a really good place to check that out.
Computer Audio-2:That is, that is totally correct. I, I was also catching up now that I got access to the disc again, I was catching up on that conversation and I was looking at that presentation and it's like, I. Perfectly, because I am exactly trying to figure it out on my own. I was like, okay, we have this, we have this, and for example, we, we are gonna be separating the, the water. Like we have these tanks, we're gonna be putting the water there. After the process for two, three days, we're gonna be mixing line to, to lower the hp. But the water separates, right? It goes like one, like a scum floats, and then we, you have a liquid part. I know what to do with the liquid part. We're gonna put it through some filtration pools that we have, but, you know, all that solid part that floats, I'm still kind of unsure. So what I'm, when I'm building the, all the connections and the pipes, now I'm gonna be able be doing like, Tests first to see if it works, putting it back with the pulp or if I have to like do it on, on a little pond, stuff like that. I, I have to experiment myself.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Well, and I hope you'll share that journey on, obviously you're gonna share it on Instagram cuz you've been doing such a good job about that. But on Discord too is a really good place.
Computer Audio-2:I'll be sharing that.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Awesome. Well, you have a lot of rain. We are having some internet difficulties. I wanna not take up too much more of your time, but I wanted to ask you if there was anything else, any other topic that you'd like to share or like to talk about before we wrap up?
Computer Audio-2:Coffee is still challenging. It's still hard. I sometimes go. You know, oh, we're easy mode now because I've got the experience. I stress much less. I, we, we have, especially with subjects that you don't think are important, like the roads or financing, but once you get that, it, it's all also more easy. But like my, my idea is still to, to forest my farm. We've got a lot of space to do that and. You know about the uncertainty in coffee, it's, for example, inflation, right? Everywhere. There's inflation and, and I have to keep upping the, the salaries with my people just, just to stay on par with inflation. But then I think, Hey, what happens next year? Right? What if coffee. The price goes below production cost. Again, what, what the hell am I gonna do? Then I'm gonna have to lose people. That, that, that's what keeps me up at night and really like what makes this still a hard business is that in uncertainty. You never know and everything. We're doing, like every hectare of forest that we do is not just, you install it and then you forget it. You, you still have to clean it. You still have to do all the work. So either, even though I get excited when I see it, all the work we're doing, it's like it's generating more responsibility. So yeah, it's, it's, it's still a learning, like every year you learn something, but it's, it's definitely for me at least much better situation here on the farm. And you know, it's been great to, to have been able to meet people like-minded and, and yes, I'm happy to, to meet more people like that, that are not scared to confront the, the not so nice parts of the coffee industry or the coffee supply chain. We, we have to talk about them. We have to laugh about them.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Yeah, and I think I'm so glad that you mentioned the part of inflation that I think a lot of consumers don't realize that the price of coffee, the commercial price of coffee has not even kept up with inflation. And yet all of the inputs, the fertilizer, the labor, the equipment, all everything else has gotten more expensive. But the price of coffee for most producers has not. You know, risen with that curve. And that puts a lot of people in a really difficult situation. So I think I wanna have this conversation more about, you know, what coffee should really cost, and not just the cost of production, but again, this hidden cost of all of this amorphous, the, the difficult things to put a number on. So I hope that I really appreciate you sharing and something that I've really loved about the Discord community is, Having a place where producers can share some of these challenges. And sometimes on some, some of our sessions, it, it is a little bit like a therapy session for, for the producers. It's a little like a support group. And, and again, it's not about complaining. It's just about sharing. Because if we don't share, then we can't get help and we can't find those people that want to. That want to help. I think a lot of people do wanna pay good prices for their coffee, but if we, we aren't telling them what that is and we aren't putting, that kind of front and center, then how are things going to get better? So, I'm, I'm with you. I think that there's still a lot of challenges, but I feel in 2023, Much more hopeful than when we talked last time. I think that there is, but I'm hopeful because of the people, you know, I'm hopeful because of the people that I've managed to meet and the people that are interested in these, these topics. So it's like I'm not hopeful cuz anything's different. I'm hopeful because now I have like more company and I have more buddies to like walk down this road with. And I consider you one of those people. So thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for just being so, so vulnerable and so honest. I really appreciate it and I know people loved the previous episode, so I'm excited to give them an update.
Computer Audio-2:Talking to you also helps me, Lucia, and I'm really happy to be able now that the Discord working to, to participate on the community again.
Microphone (2- Shure MV7):Awesome. Thank you so much, mark. I'll talk to you
Computer Audio-2:Thank you. I hope so.
Lucia:Thanks again, to mark for hanging out with me, we had some, difficulties with the recording because it was raining very, very heavily in Peru. And so our internet kept cutting out. So if it felt a little bit choppy, that's just the nature of recording remotely. So, anyway, thanks to mark for spending his morning with me. And thanks to you for listening to this conversation. I hope you enjoyed catching up with mark and I will link his info in the show notes. If you want to get in touch with him directly, I'm sure he would love to hear from you. Another huge, thanks to the patrons who make it possible for me to make new episodes. If you want to join our coffee community and participate in one of the office hours live to ask me questions or to connect with other awesome listeners. Go to patreon.com/making coffee. If you see coffee in a different way. After listening to the episodes, consider joining on Patrion and helping me make more episodes. And if you enjoy listening and get value out of these please share with a friend who loves coffee or wine. If you want to be notified when the next one is coming out, consider subscribing to my free and infrequent newsletter@lucia.coffee. And again, Lucia is L U X I a. Thanks for listening. And remember. Life's too short to drink bad coffee.