#54: Visiting Producers, Advanced Tourism & The Coffee Hunter with Tom of Sweet Maria’s

The conversation with Tom Owen is wide ranging, but one main theme we talk about is coffee travel and tourism. How the host and guest dynamics play out including the unintentional burden we may be placing on coffee producers when we visit them.

Its an interesting time to be reflecting on the role of travel in coffee, since I just had a major trip to teach coffee fermentation. You’ll hear Tom bring this up when he asks me about FTC being a form of advanced tourism. 

Sweet Maria’s is an incredible resource for curious coffee nerds who want to learn about home roasting basics, green coffee quality, roast profiles and cupping. The website has an extensive coffee library and resource page, so I highly recommend you check it out if these topics interest you. 

In this episode we talk about:

• why he keeps traveling to coffee farms after 26 years
• what is the role of travel in coffee 
• when can we use Zoom & WhatsApp instead of hopping on a plane
• what is his approach to sourcing coffee
• how he is like a personal shopper
• etiquette when visiting a producer, what questions to ask ourselves before we visit
• the coffee hunter trope and caricatures of our industry

RESOURCES
Sweet Maria's Podcast episode #38-#39

Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com

Support the show on Patreon  to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.

And if you don't want to commit, show your support here with a one time contribution: PayPal

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To connect with Tom:
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info@sweetmarias.com

Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee

Transcript

0:22

Hello friends, and welcome to episode 54. It's been a while since I sat down to record, and those of you who received the newsletter, or check Instagram, will know it's because Nick and I did a fermentation training camp in Indonesia in June, and then we spent a few more weeks visiting Vietnam and Japan after the camp. And From that trip, from that time, there's a lot of conversations and a lot of, episodes coming from the people that I was able to meet and record with, so I'm really excited about the, that coming up pretty soon, but today's conversation with Tom from Sweet Maria's. This was recorded actually before we left for the trip, but we didn't get around to editing it until this week. So, Tom and I have never met, but he is a patron of the podcast and he reached out a while ago wanting to record an episode together. And I was really excited to receive his message because I listen to his podcast and I enjoy his thoughtful reflections. In this conversation, we talk about coffee, tourism, and travel. These are topics that are a spin off of his podcast episodes 38 and 39. You don't have to listen to those episodes to enjoy this conversation, but I think they're very good episodes, and I will link them in the show notes so you can check them out later. Since its beginning, Sweet Maria's has been an incredible resource for curious coffee nerds who wanted to learn about home roasting basics, green coffee quality, roast profiles, and cupping. The Sweet Maria's website has an extensive coffee library and resource page, so I highly recommend you check it out if these topics interest you. You know, it's interesting because if you wanted to buy green coffee as a roaster, usually the smallest size you can buy is like, you know, one bag, about 150 pounds of green coffee. And even when you have, like, micro lots, they can be as big as 5 to 10 bags. So, roughly 750 pounds to 1, 500 pounds of coffee. For a roaster, this is a small batch. But for a home roaster, this is an unreasonable amount of coffee. Sweet Maria's sells as little as a single pound of carefully sourced and selected coffee. I think it's a great service because it's made specialty coffee more accessible to coffee lovers. Sweet Maria's began in 1997, so there are few people in the coffee industry who don't know about this home roasting gem, or who don't know who Tom is. However, if this is your first time hearing about Tom, you're in for a treat, because you're about to hear from someone who spends a lot of time thinking about his role and impact in the coffee space. Tom and I talked for a long time, so I don't want to make this intro too long, but I do want to remind you guys that I'm still planning fermentation training camps in Guatemala. Our next camp this December in Antigua is sold out, but if you email info. luchacoffee at gmail. com, you can be put on the waiting list and be the first to know when I open spots for the next one, which is potentially happening at the end of February 2024. You can also find more details on the fermentation camps on my website at luchacoffee. Lastly, I want to remind you guys that we are regularly getting together for office hours on Discord. We have also started a Spanish office hours to be inclusive of Spanish speaking audience. I often hear from listeners of the podcast who have strong English skills but feel more limited in their speaking ability, so we created a Spanish channel and a Spanish office hours so we can all communicate more freely. Okay. End of housekeeping. Let's get started with Tom. Okay.

Lucia: 3:50

I guess something I didn't realize is that your wife and your, is your partner as well, so you're both working in the business.

Tom: 3:56

Well, she's actually not. So Maria, Maria was she retired basically? Yeah. So she's, she's not really involved. She was more in the kind of the business part, and it's mainly me and Dan that do the green coffee part. And then, you know, it's about 22, 25 employees at the warehouse. So it's kind of medium sized, but you know, it's sort of still family,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 4:24

no, that's awesome. I was seeing, so my husband, Nick does work with me and so we, he doesn't usually travel with me, but this was, he's like, I'm not gonna miss this. So he decided, he wanted to like, okay, how do we make it work? And if you're coming, let's just, like, so I turned into this whole thing, so that's exciting. And then again, very present on our minds thinking about travel. And just like I, you and I have been having this travel conversation, like in asynchronous time over like months of.

Computer Audio: 4:54

Yeah. Yeah. Well you started me thinking, I, I think I've, I just keep doing things about travel and, and kind of photography too, cuz that's actually what I did my masters in, even though I didn't even use a camera when I did that. But, but I, I'm really familiar with all these ideas of representation that I brought over into coffee and, you know, I think we had some back and forth and it, it, that spurred me to do that two-part tourism podcast, which I know that just came outta nowhere, the whole tourism thing. You know, it seems really unnatural, but I was looking for something that, you know, explains and provides a framework for cultural connection because, sometimes I think coffee travel literally is, is like a tourist expedition or, you know, trek and there's like group trips where you get in a van and it really feels like that's what it is and that's why I travel alone. But you know, of course a lot of times it's not. But I still think it's like a valuable framework for thinking about it.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 6:04

Have you heard any feedback about those episodes?

Computer Audio: 6:07

yeah, I mean, I got some thumbs up. I don't, I don't feel like I get much sometimes, but a few things are coming in and I was really interested, this, this friend on WhatsApp that he's he's in Kansas City, and he he sent me a thing saying he was, he was fixing a motorcycle tire listening to it and he just like couldn't understand what it was about. Like he couldn't relate to it. And I really like this comment because he's very, he just does what he does in coffee. You probably don't hear a lot about his company because he's just like doing his thing. And I really appreciated like, okay. I was like, you know, that's so great this, you don't relate to this because it's not the things that are, are something you, you know, you think about when you travel and that's great. So, you know, cuz I'm kind of forcing the, this, this tourism critique onto the coffee thing. it doesn't fit, easily and naturally. I'm kind of making it fit so that I can understand like, How, you know, what kind of criticism? There's a whole there's departments of tourism studies and there's people who have focused on it. It's kind of been a wormhole for me and now I'm reading like two other books on the topic of, of tourism studies and I still find it interesting. So,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 7:25

Well, I'm curious why you think it's, it's forced and not a good fit for me. It, it just, it lays so naturally on top of and provides a really good structure and a lot of evidence for what I've seen. So I think maybe it has to do with living in producing countries the way that I do versus somebody living in the United States and saying, okay, well this isn't really relevant or you feel like you're forcing it, but for me, who lives in these countries, I'm like, this, it just felt like such a breath of fresh air. I'm like, this is it. This is something that I see all of the time. And so I think maybe that's one of the privileges is that when you travel, you only see it in these glimpses and maybe you take a two week vacation per year or you go and so you're like, well, it's only two weeks out of my whole year, but for us who live in these countries, I'm like, this is all of my weeks. This is, this is every single week of my year. And so it feels more relevant. So I think your comment about forcing it is really interesting to me, and I'm just like, wow. It doesn't feel forced at all.

Computer Audio: 8:18

That's really interesting that you found it, are you saying that the dialogue around like tourism, coffee, felt like something you observed from your position living in origin, origin

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 8:32

yeah. In producing countries. Not necessarily something I observed, but don't observe enough of as having this conversation. So for, for you to be exploring these themes and to be exploring what it is to be, you know, an outsider coming into a new culture and what are our responsibilities? How much safety and comfort do we want? How much adventure do we want? Like, all of these questions I feel are incredibly relevant because I think one of the things that I really reacted to in those episodes that I really enjoyed, I'm so glad you made them. And I hope whoever listens to this has already listened to those, or goes in, immediately listens to those episodes. Cause we're gonna reference them a lot, I hope. But something that I really was reacting to kind of in that sense, where you, you had this idea of like, I don't wanna be the travel police. I don't wanna tell people what to do. It feels really uncomfortable to like, have guidelines. Like you don't, you don't want that to be your role. And I hate being the police of anything as well. But what I noticed in, in that dialogue is like, These things are not equal, like you're saying. I don't wanna be the travel police cuz I don't want anybody to feel bad about what makes them happy. And then I'm on the other side saying, yes, but the trade off is fe making someone feel bad, like hurting somebody's feelings maybe about what they like versus another person's actual economic livelihood. And another person's like life, like these two things are not equal. I'm like, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but this person lost three days of work. Or, you know, something like that. Like it's, they're not equal topics. And so I think it's okay to like hurt somebody's feelings if the backside or the upside of that is that they don't make, you know, some very poor choices that actually affect people on a much larger scale.

Computer Audio: 10:17

So what are those, what, what are those poor choices that you see? Like what have you seen that you feel is kind of egregious in terms of things people might do unconsciously, but they, I sort of visit a coffee producer and then take all their time and take them away from their work.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 10:35

yeah, I, I think, I think that part feels like it deserves a lot more examination. I mean, you mentioned it, I think, I dunno if it was in the podcast or at least in a, a private message to me about, If the reverse was true. So if we're gonna go, if I'm a coffee buyer and I'm buying a handful of bags, five, 10, and I'm coming to visit a producer, but I'm staying for three or four days and I'm staying in their house and they're feeding me three meals a day, maybe I come with a friend, maybe there's two of us, and now you're feeding us and, and we're here and maybe we've bought coffee before, maybe we haven't even made the purchase. They're just interested. They're like, I just wanna get to know you. That is very, very common. I see that a lot. And a lot of producers are very happy to share their, their business. Like they don't usually have a lot of these opportunities to access new markets, so they can be really excited about it. But if we do the, the reverse and we say, okay, Tom, someone's gonna come visit you and they're gonna stay in your house and you have to feed them and you have to drop everything that you're doing for three days, can your business afford that? And, and the other way, it's like, that's a very unrealistic request for your time and taking you away from other things. But when we apply it to coffee, we're like, no, we are, we feel a little bit of entitlement of like, well, I'm coming all this way and they're going to host me. And I don't know that we spend enough time asking or like really thinking about what are we asking of people? What are we asking of our hosts to do? We're asking them to not do anything else. We're asking them to not tend to other things we're asking them to drive us at,

Computer Audio: 12:08

Yeah, I mean, you brought this up in, in one of your podcasts and it made me think because it, it just was about the impact on somebody else's life. And would I be able to host someone in that same way? So if somebody came to visit me in Oakland and, and stayed at my house, which the dogs would not like, and and then, you know, came to work and I couldn't do what I normally could do, yeah. I, I could not offer in a reciprocal way what I was asking of them when I came there to visit them in a producing country. So, yeah, it seems really unfair and really unequal. And I think, you know, a lot of where I would like to get to is a way that neither party patronizes each other. That we, you know, you really feel like you as a coffee buyer have this specific role and they produce the product that you buy. And it's very simple. It's not, there isn't it's, if we could take maybe even some of the emotion out of it and also just some of this kind of whole coffee family thing and those, those things that kind of soft focus what the economic basis is for what we do. I visit you to confirm quality and to learn. You know, and at the same time you have a business that you need to focus on and your part, you know, somebody who produces coffee, they have their role and you sort of meet equally like, I'm not helping you because I buy your product. There, there are other buyers and if your product is good, you will have other buyers. So it's not really, I mean I like that it's personal, but it's not in a way too I think if people produce quality coffee then they don't need me, solely me and they don't rely on me and I, you know, vice versa. And I think that gives both parties a more honest basis for relating to each other on a more stable basis. And it's really not patronizing cuz that's what I find in a lot of the dialogue of marketing, coffee and selling coffee. It over represents and distorts the relationship. And I thought of a new one today, in fact, cuz I was here and I thought about coffee sourcing. I was thinking about all the work that I don't do to get my coffee. What I really do is I select, I select the coffees that are offered to me, but someone has, El else has done the work to put together all those selections and put them in front of me. Fetishize the whole world coffee buyer to this point where it just sounds like you're just, you know, this amazing wizard going out, conjuring up these things and, and, you know, it's, it's just fake. Like we, we say, I work with this producer, you didn't work with them. Cuz like I I've said, you don't work with the person you buy tomatoes from at the Berkeley, organic market. You just went and bought their tomatoes. That's not working with them. And I think a, a lot of the things I was talking about in that podcast is how, you know, a group of coffee buyers will show up and then magically all I'm being snarky here, by the way, all their all their Instagrams show. So as if they were there alone, it's like, you know, there's one group photo, but everyone goes off into the bushes and records their, their video. I'm here at this place and you know, you think they walk, they walked there or something I also thought about how, how momentary my visits to coffee locations are. Like the washing stations I go, I went to, in the last couple of days, I'm there for 30 minutes, five minutes. And I do try to get a lot out of that. I try to gain, gather a lot of information. I take a lot of photos. I ask questions, I make notes I fill in any details I might have missed from previous trips, but it's 30 and 45 minutes and it gets represented like I'm, you know, there for these submersive, encounters with that. So I feel like a lot of the language and stuff, the way people represent coffee travel is, is really fake, basically.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 16:25

Well, and I think this is another opportunity to talk about that, like, like time, how time distorts our perception of what's important. And so yes, if you're visiting for 30, 40 minutes, And you're also having these discrete times, and then I could see how another buyer is like, well, is this really an issue? Like, I, I can't relate to this. You know, kind of having that, that barrier. Whereas I've only been to Kigali once and I was there for 18 days working with a producer. So I was there for the 18 days watching all of these tour buses of the people that were coming for 30 minutes and 45 minutes and over 18 days, like I could see the growing pile of these, interactions and experiences. And so, you know, we're, we're the colors very much kind of my snarkiness and my frustration with the system. Just seeing how those trips developed. Like you said, the representation of them and then seeing all of the things being there for all of the things that the visitors don't get to see or, you know, being there for the show and then okay, the show's over, everybody goes home and like we're still there working until whatever time or all of those other kind of components. So I, that's why I think this is a really important topic to talk about and to bring up. And I'm okay having. A little like, I wanna figure out how to say this. Like, I don't want to shame people either, but I'm okay if that's kind of an effect of what these conversations do. I'm okay if somebody listens to this and is maybe a little bit ashamed about like, wow, I've done that and I never thought about the other side. Or I'm about to do that. How do I not, how do I make sure my trip doesn't turn into one of these things? Cuz I think awareness is really important, but it's not enough. It's just kind of having that, that sort of secondary action. So I really, I also wanted to say that I really appreciate what you mentioned about depersonalizing coffee and I, I feel like we have this false sense in specialty coffee that the way to make it specialty is more personal, more stories, more emotion, more connection. But I completely agree with you that that can translate so often into this patronizing form and it's like, it's, it's perfectly dignified to say, I like this thing and I paid for it and now it's over here. Like, that's not less than like, that's a perfectly valid economic exchange of like an event. So all that to say, that's why I really wanted to have this conversation with you cuz I think we have similar perspectives, but we're coming from really different like sides of the supply chain, really different sides of the industry. We have, you know, different kinds of experience, but I feel like. With enough time. I think most people, most reasonable people with enough time in this industry will converge to this type of perspective. But I don't know that we have that much time and if we can accelerate some of these conversations, I think that's what I really wanna accomplish. Like in general. So I dunno if there's anything you wanna add or react to there.

Computer Audio: 19:27

Well, I, you know, I really want to hear more about what you have to say because you are involved. You, you know, you consult in production and I visit people who are doing work in coffee for long periods of time before I come and are ready to present that coffee to me. But it's, you know, out of politeness, it's, and perhaps, you know, they, they all, I don't know, they're, maybe they also believe some of this too, that a green buyer's really special, but they treat us very nicely and they don't want to be rude. And I think you mentioned just politeness, but you can't, it's very hard to get people to be critical you know, for this politeness factor, which I totally respect. But I want, I want somebody to tell me, you know, honestly, how does this work? Like, how, what is your view? How is it when you keep seeing this stream of buyers come through? It's something I really don't get to see. But what I have experienced on the tour buses and when I sit still and see streams of buyers come through is it's not very flattering. Sometimes it's. So I want to, I wanna hear more about what you see because you're willing to talk about it. And, you know, generally in coffee, I just find people aren't critical enough because A, they think critical is, is bad, and b, it's like this, this is just like a business. So if you have a business and you criticize another business, you're just, it's taken that you're just trying to elevate yourself over other people. But it leads to this real silence in coffee about you know, if people have products to sell and they have reputations, they don't want'em damaged, they don't wanna speak too much critically about how people are behaving. so I totally agree, and I think it comes down to me to like harm, like what harm comes to a coffee buyer who's hurt because their ego isn't stroked, their ego isn't fl combed. You know, versus somebody, yeah, they, they've lost several days of work and then find out that this person really isn't a serious buyer and they're not really committed to. Long term, you know buying relationship or something, you know, what kind of har you know, so it's, I think of that too. Yeah. So I don't, the more you say about what you have observed, I think the richer it is because you've seen, you've been in production situations, you've seen people pass through and you've noticed things, and what are those things?

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 21:58

well I also have this I think we share this, this like super critical voice that that is like censoring our, our comments frequently. And I have a hard time with that, with that voice because I, I do get to see those things. So I can speak on behalf of producers, but I don't think that's helping either. Like, I, I don't wanna speak for them because then I'm just part of the problem. So kind of with that in mind, you know, I'm not, I guess that's another thing too is that I would say most producers wouldn't be this critical. Most producers wouldn't get as upset as I get in these situations cuz I think they're much more culturally used to it or, you know, they don't have, don't have that lens of like, you know, what someone just did to them was rude. So it just kind of like, you know, slides off their back and I'm there observing it. I'm like, that was incredibly rude. So like, I'm more upset than the producer. So I don't wanna say that like they're some, you know, they're there fuming and they're just like not able to say anything. And I'm kind of observing this. I think most of the time they're just not really incorporating, cuz cultures are different. So they may not have perceived the slight that I perceive kind of being one foot in both worlds. But what I, what I will say is that I think that one of the things that most I think conscientious buyers, like you would say, you know, if, if a producer said, you know, this is not a great time for me. Can we do it next month? Or you know, please come visit me, but I, you know, I can't have you stay in my house. Can we find some other accommodation for you? Or, yes, you can visit me, but would you be willing to cover your own meals for this time? Like, I'm sure every reasonable green buyer would be like, of course, of course I would do that. Like, so it's perfectly reasonable request. But culturally, living in Latin cultures, that is not something that we would request of visitors. Like we have a very special place for visitors and they are very special entities that come visit. So that, I dunno, I guess it's sort of like you're saying, With green buyers. If someone asks us these things, of course we would do them. And I'm like, I just don't see a world where producers would actually set limits and put, you know, regulations. So I think it's a much more on the part of the, the green buyer to ask those questions for themselves and kind of censor themselves and say, is what I'm asking pretty reasonable? Could we flip this in another way? And then instead of waiting to be asked, offering saying, can I cover my meals? Would it be okay for me to stay with you? Or, I'm perfectly happy finding accommodations nearby, or, you know, offering these things that may, producers are definitely not gonna be the first ones to suggest that, but maybe once it's presented to them, or maybe not even saying like, you know, maybe they'll still say yes and like, be really gracious, but maybe it makes more sense for me as a visitor to like stay in my own place and not invade their home and something like that. Like I think the effort needs to be disproportionately on the visitor to try to be a good visitor instead of disproportionately on the host to be a good host. That makes sense.

Computer Audio: 24:52

I've been trying for like 26 years to figure this out, so, and I don't, you know, I know I've done every bad thing because, you know, my head gets filled up with ideas about, you know, a lot of times I think like, you know, especially in the period about 10 years ago and stuff, when like. Green buying competition was just kind of ridiculous. It was like this, especially, I hate to say it was like a man thing, it was like a competition and it really felt weird. And I know even at the time I really had trouble with it, but I also just couldn't like, it. It was, there was a culture around it that was really gross to me. And I reflect back on that. And some trips I'd take where, where I, you know, I know I was just trying to not be bored and have fun, but I, I get really silly and I think I was really rude sometimes, you know? And and I feel like I've, I've, you know, probably done every bad thing that, that there is to do in, in it and not be out of intention, but usually just out of ignorance and not being aware of what people are doing for me. But the thing I thought of, which when you're talking is, is a guy, there's a guy that loaned us a truck in Ethiopia like a couple months ago for a whole week. And I didn't thank him. So that's what I thought of. I need to, I need to go back. I need to remember to thank him. Maybe I did, but I didn't like formally thank him. So,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 26:21

Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of people don't realize that I'm able to perceive is how much producers give. Like it's not just their time where they're not working or doing anything else where they're attending to the guests, and then it can be okay, they're home. So maybe you know, the kids have to the, the three kids are sleeping in one room so that the guests can have one of the kids' rooms, something like that. And then of course the food. So the time of the women to cook all of the food and then to clean all your dishes. And then I've seen so many people get their laundry done, so now they're washing your clothes and they're cooking your food and you're taking their room in their house and they picked you up from the airport and they lend you a car and they fill the gas with that car so you're not paying them back for the gas of the car or any other, like, things like breakdowns or things like that. So I think when you start adding up all of these little things and you're like, well, I just visited them for three days or four days, and then you think, okay, but 10 other people came to visit them or like, all of these things are, are quite a burden. It's not just your footprint, but like the footprint of everybody in that space who can take advantage in this way.

Computer Audio: 27:23

Yeah. I think, you know, leading with, you know, with a clear idea, giving someone a clear idea of this is what I'm doing, this is how much coffee I'm looking for, you know, that you have an organized way that you present them with what your need is. And so at least that part is clear. So, you know, I, I mean, I do think the producers will make their own choices to some degree. And, and, but I have seen times where I just can't believe the resources that somebody buying 10 bags is, is getting And, you know, I mean, a lot of times they're, they're real you know, sort of well-traveled exporters and, and people who are, are showing off coffee to people, they're, they've gotten real, they've gotten a lot better at being set up for this because they've been through it so much that they are basically gonna stage that circus, you know, five days of a week. Like, like in Antigua, there's exporters that have like cupping rooms with divi dividing things between them so they can just stack up the visitors and, you know they can all get their work done. But it's really important to know what is that work, what are they being asked for? And to have a clear, to present them with a clear idea of how much you buy, what you are looking for what, you know, maybe even pricing, this is what I've been paying et cetera.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 28:46

And I, I think, you know, one of the conversations that we've had, you know, in the background is having some kind of. Of guideline, which is, I think too strong of a word, but just questions that one can ask oneself before embark on a trip. And I think one of those could be, what you're saying is really important is how much coffee am I buying? So maybe it's 10 bags and then say, okay, what is this trip gonna cost? Just me. So saying like, maybe there's two of us and it's gonna be two or three grand on tickets. And then there's still like the Uber's kind of going back and forth or whatever these like other expenses could be. And then say, okay, what's better? And again, I'm always very biased for the producer to say, what if we took those$3,000, like didn't do a trip and then paid them 50 cents more per pound on the coffee? Like what would make a bigger difference? And, and then you can still go on the trip, but just be really honest and say, no, I'm going on the trip so I can get that picture of me. And I can say, I've been there to say that we like work with the producers versus like taking that money and just paying them a little bit more when you have 10 bags. I think that when you are buying containers, when you're buying 250 bags, when you're buying multiple containers, understanding the logistics of the country, like that could be, it could be really beneficial and really important that you go and you meet with people and that you're cupping through. You know, 75 lots that are gonna be filling this container. Like there's always, I guess what I wanna say is I don't think that travel is never necessary. I don't there, I know that there are things that cannot be accomplished in a Zoom call, but a lot of things can. And so if you're selling this story of, you know, we're working with these partners and we're valuing the producer, but you're spending thousands of dollars to visit them instead of paying more for coffee, okay, that's not really that helpful to them.

Computer Audio: 30:30

Yeah. I mean, I, I have never used, you know, WhatsApp and Zoom and, and et cetera as well as I could have. I mean, there's so much communication that could happen and you can ask people for photos that you would like for marketing even, or, Hey, can you show me your new new Pulper? You don't have to fly to go see it. So I don't think, I, I think there's such an amazing resource and everybody, most people can connect that way, and I think would be happy with your questions and, and to give you information and material. And I, I've never really been that good at that. I I also kind of conversely I hope we're not getting you this thing where you're like, you're like the representative for producers, and I'm representative for consumers, but I think about the cost to like my customers because my view of myself, which, like, I try to just think of myself as a personal shopper. Like I'm going out to find really good coffee. I do want, I don't want to pay ridiculous prices. I do negotiate on prices. I'm not, And I think people are somehow embarrassed to that, but I do, because, you know and we find a fair thing that's a, a part of respecting somebody else's business and they have mine, and then we find a place that works and, and we buy coffee. But you know, when I'm doing that, I'm having to tag on the price of every trip to our expenses and that increases our cost to our customers. So, you know, I do, I I do feel a responsibility to them as well. And I think of that when it gets just really crazy and coffee, like at sca, I just cannot believe these booze and these parties and these like things people do. And it's like the roasters all go and they party and stuff, and it's just like, dude, you're all paying for that. Dad's like, you know, in fact what really sucks is the people who don't go and they don't even go to the party and get the free beer and they're paying for it. Like, who, where does all that money come from? It comes from you on the cost of your coffee. And so then I think, well, where do you want that to go? Would you rather see have a really efficient business where you go, you know they don't have an extravagant booth and a huge party at sca, but they're really conscious of. What they're paying and transparent about what they're paying producers. And then that's, you know, something really good you can take to your consumers, you know, your clients. So where do you want the money to go? It's something I think about along those lines.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 33:14

No, and that's funny too because I think it's another like example of converging on kind of the same point from different sides where it's like that, that money trip could either be used to pay better prices for the coffee, or it could be used to, you know, pass on those savings or, or not necessarily pass them on, but not add them to your customers. You know, that cup of coffee doesn't have to be that price because it doesn't have to cover all of your, all of your travel.

Computer Audio: 33:39

I wanted to mention too, I, I think back to all these kind of growth trips I took or things that, you know, I feel like, what kind of tourists have I been in? How have I been a tourist? And then how do you experience yesterday? Cause I'm in Rwanda and I went out for a day and it was kind of cool because it, I realized that a lot of what I end up doing is, is really working with the person who's driving me around in the agronomist that's with me and kind of learning from them. And also like we went to Like, our whole day was kind of actually fairly blown after we went to this really remote station we'd been buying from for a lot of years. And and then had to meet these local officials and I didn't, wasn't quite clear on what was going on because I don't speak Kenya or Rwanda, and we ended up having to have a dinner and it wasn't, you know, stay and be polite and I just, you know, did my job of just being there. And when we got back in the car and, and drove and we got super late to the hotel, so I, yeah, I was a little like, well, what was that all about? And he was like, you know, this was really important. We needed to talk to this sector official because we're really trying to get them to support the stations in the area and make sure that their policies for the farmers are, gonna lead to some parody in terms of the other sectors. And he kept, he said a couple times about how, what an important meeting that was for him. And I thought about this way that in a way, you know, I, this is, you know, this person is my agent here. He does, they do work that benefits me and it benefits them and their company and it benefits hopefully the coffee sector and the farmers and the station co-ops or the owners. But it was really, I was sort of backseat on this whole thing, but it was really interesting and I was on somebody else's trip with somebody else's agenda. And that's, that's an experience in my coffee travel a lot too. And it's quite different from me being sort of, you know, the center and things being there to service me and my interests and what I'm trying to do. So there's a cooperation that happens when you especially start to acknowledge the role. Like, I don't source coffee, I just select it. They do, they actually source coffee, you know, and, and and realizing that you have an important part as a buyer, but it's just a part, it's a small part. And the more you sort of see the picture of how things work and acknowledge your small part in it, I think, you know, it changes. It's, things shift a little. So that was something.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 36:23

I really liked your analogy of a, a personal shopper, cuz that's how I like to feel. That's how I kind of treat my coffee buying experience. So like, I know, or I've learned, you know, I've tried a lot of different roasters. I really like Sweet Bloom in Colorado, so I don't have to spend what I, what I know is like, okay that's my personal shopper. So I know that coffees that they have and the roast level that they have, like, I'm probably gonna like nine outta 10 coffees. So it's really easy for me to just like, find something and, and get it. It's a little bit more I dunno, like I don't wanna think so much about everything all of the time. Like I'd like some things to be easy. So if I can find some things like that, like I know I'm gonna get good quality from here cuz I have this experience and then that's, that's a value add for me. And so I think that for roasters to think of themselves in that way is, is really wonderful and is really helpful. And I think that, I don't know, I feel like we can also extend this into, I want to extend this into producers, but I feel like they don't get that opportunity because I had this question asked of me recently about a winemaker and how winemakers are able to have like their style, like their imprint on the wine and how coffee producers, we really tend to talk more about the variety or the process. And, or, you know, farming practices. And we don't really let them have a chance to have like their style or their imprint on a particular coffee. So they're not really allowed to participate in that way of this. Like, this is just a style that I like and that people would come to this coffee producer for this style we're really most like, oh, do you have this s Alpha 28? Or do you have this gay show? Are you, you know, whatever are you doing carbonic, maceration? So I don't know. I just, I, I feel like we know that this is a valuable role and I'm just very aware that we don't extend that option to a lot of producers. What do you think about that?

Computer Audio: 38:21

I mean, well, yes, that's, now I, I do think about that. I think that, you know, when the story about coffee used to be like, oh, terroir and oh variety, that it, it removed human labor, it removed labor. And the, the many decisions that producers make, you know, they may not go pick the coffee themselves, or many times they do, or it's a family member or a neighbor they hire, you know, in Colombia, for example here in Rwanda or Burundi, it's, they have 400 trees. They just do it all themselves. And and other places there maybe directing, you know, their, their crew like in a big farm in Antigua. But, you know, the, the selection of coffee cherry in the quality control with coffee cherry, to me, really does amount to, to something that becomes, you know, it's such, it's so critical and it's something you can never fix later. I mean, working backwards from the roaster, like roasters and baristas and everything, I've always been amazed how you take this agricultural product. And it goes through this whole system of homogenization in order to reach a quality level where we put it into these machines, roasting machines and brewing machines, and we produce something predictable. And the electrification like instrumentation with all of that is, is where a lot of the focus is right now. You know, that we, I, I was trying to say in that podcast how it's shifted, I think recently into these sort of technical aspects and people are like mentioning this coffee is from this farm, but they're not talking anymore about it. They're kind of like saying, and this is my method and this is what I'm doing. This is my roast curve, and this is the little flick at the end, and this is how I'm controlling it. So, but it's really the homogenization that starts from that thing that comes off the tree through the, through the mill and the processing and the dry mill that makes all that possible. And I feel like that's the basis that we work off of and we treat it in a way that's so mechanistic that it, it takes out so much of the, you know, hand to eye work of people choosing that coffee and then going out and laying it out and picking it out and you know, and even, even like subtle things here, I don't know what you call them in Guatemala, Pinton, or No, they call'em The half red, half green. And some of them are totally ripe, you know, and you feel them, and you can tell the difference between the pinton or the half green, half red. That's actually like a really good coffee cherry and should get, should go into the process. And ones that are not, and those are, you know, there's a feel for it. I think that's maybe not fully understood or, or respected

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 41:12

I've seen that also in drying. I've seen guys that work on patios and just, they put the seeds in their teeth to tell you how the moisture content and they're just, you know, putting it in their teeth, in their mouth. And then they, they're like, oh, it's like at 13%. And then I've seen them be so accurate. It's been really incredible. Like they just had that experience and that feel that that, that hands-on ness is, I think something that we undervalue. We think it's very I don't know, like we, we like our tools, we like our toys, but I think one of the kind of hypocrisies in the coffee industry is that you mentioned, you know, I, I've seen this too, that it's very much about the tools and the toys, and we get very excited about that on the consuming end, but, On the producing end, not only are we not necessarily aware of like how much labor it is, like we're kind of turning it into this other thing. But if we are, there seems to be a very negative reaction to producers getting better machines to machine drying to like kind of upgrading equipment. Like it's like, okay, you can have the fanciest roaster, but you want them still to pick by hand and you want them to like dry in the sun and you don't want them to have you know, a mechanical dryer. And so I think there's like that hypocrisy of like, we can have all the toys, but we don't want producers to have the toys because then the product doesn't seem authentic and then it doesn't seem artisanal and then it doesn't seem as handmade. And so there's very much this resistance when the reality is that labor not in Africa but at least in Central America, it's incredibly scarce. There's a a lot fewer coffee pickers and that's a huge problem. And we're gonna have to mechanize in some way, whether it's drones, whether it's mechanical harvesting, like we're gonna have to do something because the people aren't there and I don't think that they're gonna come back. So I don't know, just, I just see like, again, these double standards a lot on tools and toys.

Computer Audio: 43:01

Yeah, I think that one's complicated for me because. you know, on one hand I do like the way coffee is produced traditionally, and I like where it comes from and, you know, there's an image, there's the image of that and the reality of that. And it's, it's coming into a clash in a lot of places in the world.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 43:20

I wanna go back to that where it's like, yes, we like the idea of handmade. Like that's nice. It makes us feel good. But the, the other side of making us feel good means that you are limiting those opportunities for other people, or they, they are not. Cause you're like, well, I'm not gonna buy from people that are super mechanized, that are machine harvesting and machine drying and, you know, I want this sort of element to it. And I think about that where it's like, I mean, everyone's entitled to their opinion and to their feelings, but just realizing that like your feelings are limiting options for other people. Like they're not just your feelings. Does that make sense?

Computer Audio: 43:59

yeah. It does for sure. And on that point, you know, I actually remember I didn't listen to it, but you did the episode on. Comier and about how you got this good coffee, but you just didn't like, I, I, I think, cuz I heard you mention something later, like, you just didn't like the process of making a coffee this way. It's just not attractive. And there's, that's, I guess part of what I'm thinking is that there's something kind of attractive to your mind about coffee. You know, I think the word sappi kind of is a word that invokes both taste and pleasing to the mind and to the senses. And, you know, I've thought about that before because, you know, we represent Coffee is, is a place where people want to know the origin because it is pleasing. It is a beautiful place, you know, it does, you do get good pictures there. So it's not the place where we get our toaster oven from that we don't really wanna know anything about that would, that would disrupt our image of, of where this comes from and disrupt our enjoyment of it. So I, I just wanted to note, I mean, that comes up for me in it because both critically and also I'm kind of like, I feel it too. Like I, I listened to a presentation by a really magnified food engineer, like a serious food engineer about coffee. I don't know if a I can't remember her name though. She's from Brazil and. It was the, just the most unappealing thing. And yet I knew like, these, this is what coffee's been missing, is the approach of a food engineer to look at inefficiencies in the system and to, to re-engineer the whole thing. And, you know, I just feel this like resistance to that. But but I totally, I think this is a, I mean, I think you're focused on a really interesting point here between the representation of coffee and why it's pleasing. And then, but this production system doesn't totally work in a lot of places. It's sort of crumbling and falling apart more in some places than others. And labor is the biggest issue, I think in this. So, and there really isn't a way for, if we don't get that good material, there's no way to fix it later. With all our fantastic techniques and inventions. We have to have a pretty good material going in. And, you know, mechanical drying and more automation and stuff could give us at least a good baseline, you know 85 point, 84 point coffee that could be scaled up and produced, you know much more efficiently. But it's not very pleasing to see that done like in Brazil

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 46:51

Well, I love that you brought up my own commenter example because I think you're right. That's exactly how. I was framing that product where it was a technically perfect, a technically beautiful cup of coffee. Like I would have this coffee in front of me and I'm like, wow, this is objectively a very sweet, balanced complex, very well crafted beverage in front of me. But because all I did was like open up a thing and pour it in, I'm like, I'm not enjoying this experience. So yes, there was, there was something missing that is not just the, the outcome, but some of that journey has to be part of it to really enjoy kind of the whole experience. So like for me, making my pour over is part of it. I'd rather have a less technically perfect cup that I made myself than someone just like, you know, puts a pill in front of me and they're like, here you go. And yeah, so I completely understand that, that that handmade crafting is an important element. However, with the commenter example, this is a business that, you know, it has millions of investment money. Like, I don't know what kind of, you know, like for me, they're not hurting. Like this is just a creative business. That was interesting. Like they decided to make something. Versus talking about producers who own land, who like have much fewer options. And so in that sense, like I'm, I'm admitting that I feel this way, but I would also be willing to put that aside and say if this is what it takes to keep coffee going. Because I think that's the thing. It's like, I think a lot of people think that, you know, mechanical harvesting is like a preference. It's like, well, I'd rather have somebody handpick my coffee than machine harvest it. But if the option is machine harvested or no coffee farms are completely abandoned, like no one's around. Like that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about this like, oh, I, I, this would be nice to have. I'm like, the people are leaving, the people are, especially in Guatemala and Honduras, they're, they're going to the United States. You know, like there are entire towns where there's just only women cuz all of the men left and there is, there is not this labor. And so I just think it's, it's kind of a disconnect that we're sitting here thinking, oh, I don't like machine harvested coffee. And I'm like, I, that, that's not, that's like so far from what I'm talking about. I don't care if you like it. That's just what we're facing in a lot of places because of kind of the other, economic and political landscape.

Computer Audio: 49:18

Yeah, I mean, I do think in,, in each producing country, you know, it's, it's really heterogeneous in terms of what they're actually facing and, you know, land pressure urbanization, migration You know, all the, all of these things are, are, are different in each place. So, you know, yes, in, in Ethiopia you may have plenty of labor for a while and there may be a really different set of, of issues facing coffee, but they're there nonetheless in some form or other, you know, I mean, I'm just saying I guess technology doesn't sort of, isn't applied equally everywhere all the time. And then the issues that people face are kind of different everywhere. And I wanted to say that because I think that when we think of what is done on the consuming side like Comier, I mean that kind of an effort, if that failed tomorrow, people would just write off their investment money and, and go on, you know, it's no big deal. And I think that's part because it's capital fluidity. If you have a farm and you got that farm from your family or you, you bought it, but it's your land, you can't pick it up and move it. You can't switch over into another crop immediately. You don't have fluidity in terms of capital. You know, maybe you can loan money against it, but in a lot of places you can't. And a lot of times the loans you get are, are really huge pressure on coffee producers, you know, especially if they're buying any coffee from their neighbors or, or need to finance anything or any improvement. That's, that's another thing. But, but on the consuming side, we can just sort of like change our minds tomorrow about anything, you know, and it doesn't really matter that much. So I, I see that as, it's something I think about in terms of how, what may be familiar to us. There's this just not this parody between consuming and producing in this way.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 51:16

Definitely. But I do appreciate you bringing up that example cuz we also had another situation cuz you and I have been going back and forth on tourism and kind of the pros and cons and I don't wanna come out as like anti-cop travel. I just am pro thoughtful coffee travel. And like I said, I still think that there are times when it is a great value add for both parties to have coffee travel, but I think that that's the exception, not the rule. I think, like I said, a lot of. Trips could be shortened, avoided, or kind of changed in different ways. But then you also mentioned, well, I'm hosting fermentation camps now, and you said that seems like advanced travel, and I loved this comment so much. It's so good. It's so good because,

Computer Audio: 52:03

Why?

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 52:03

because it's true because in, in many ways, I felt really seen. I just, I felt like you are paying attention. And so when you have, you know, some, some feedback like that, I'm like, okay, somebody's paying attention. Like, I don't get to get away with anything. And I think that what I wanna say about the Fermentation Camp as advanced tourism is it's, it can be many things at once. It is advanced tourism, and I also see it as like a professional opportunity because I am trying to focus on coffee producers. So our quota has been, we're at like 53% coffee producer attendance. So we're more than half coffee producer attendance, and most of those are female coffee producers. I'm very selective about who gets accepted. We don't, you don't just buy a ticket and you automatically get a spot. I have also, also because of our sleeping arrangements, so I have a quota of how many female to male participants and how many, you know, producers I want so there's like things that I'm trying to do to mitigate, but at the end of the day, you're right. You know, the people that aren't. Coffee producers that aren't coming for professional development to learn these skills. We do have like 2% that have been, I call them normies coffee. People that just like love coffee because everybody that comes is usually a producer, a roaster, exporter, importer. But we've had, you know, like a couple of people who are just like, I'm a teacher and I love coffee. And they come and they spend the week with us and they get to do coffee processing and, and meet all of these people. But for me that was such a huge value add for the coffee producers to meet with a final consumer, to like get to meet somebody who loves coffee so much that they can take a week off work or their lives and come and like sit next to them and learn and talk and do all of these things. So for me there's still a lot of value in including those like non-professional, non-coffee professionals, but still like coffee enthusiasts in into the mix. So I dunno if that sounds a little defensive on my part for the camps, but you know, it's like trying to, trying to do something. And I think the other thing is that there is really a gap for a producer focused event. I have a lot of interest in this because most of the kind of events like this are more consumer or booster focused and there's not as many options for producers. They don't have as many means to go. Traveling all over, but still just something that's very focused on production.

Tom: 54:39

Yeah, I mean that's funny I think there is really interesting forms of tourism that are really in depth, really educational and, and perhaps challenging. And you know, some of the way people encounter each other across this huge divide in a lot of things from producing production to consumption. And I think people become genuinely very curious about what, what the other side looks like. And I remember a really terrible thing I did for outing ourselves, which is, I I remember this, this coffee producer. I mean, I don't feel that bad cuz he's, he's kind of a snarky guy, but he, I was looking at his Instagram over his shoulder when I was visiting him in Burundi and he, it's like all latte art and cafes and people doing chore and I just can't stand this stuff, honestly. Like, I just, I don't need to see how you do this thing for the umpteenth time. You know, it just is like, I mean, it's just not for me. It's, it's like I have to filter it out cause it's, it's just kind of boring and I've seen it and he was like, yeah, but you know, I don't get to see this. This is exactly what I'm, there's like so curious about what people are doing with coffee because it's something he doesn't get to see. I mean, he had a cafe and stuff, so he's not like, you know, a producer that just grows coffee. But but I realize people just do become very curious and I always. People ask me a lot of really interesting questions when I travel about what they wanna know, what we're doing, how things are going, how we show the coffee. Like, and I try to just do a good job explaining that to them. I used to print out the pages of our website that show how we're talking about their coffee so they could keep that and have a copy of it and kind of try to fill in whatever gap I can for people. But I also just wanna mention, I just started a book, but I had to leave it at home cause it's too thick. And it's a cultural anthropologist who's, who really took on tourism as a, as something to study. And when you think about the history of anthropology anthropologists in a sense in the 1920s were like tourists in the two thousands. You know, they're, they studied people in a particular way that was kind of just straightforward and very naive. He found himself starting to watch how people watch how tourists watched. The people that were the toured people. You know, and that's, I mean, that's why where, you know, the producer as the toured and the, the the coffee buyer as the tourist, you know, that sort of divide. The interesting thing is he actually was solicited, he wrote all these critical books and, and had developed a lot of the ideas about tourist activity. But then he was invited by this sort of New York City tour company that sort of had fancy tours to go to Indonesia and to tour a lot of Indonesia where he was a specialist and spoke Bahasa with tourists. And what he would do were all these really interesting things where, like, for example, they would go to Joe Jakarta and they would observe the, the tourists would go and they would go for a, a ese dance that was like a traditional ESE dance supposedly. And then he would give a small lecture about the dance they'd watch, and he would say, well, this dance is, is in traditional costumes, but it was actually created in 1970 and it was created for visitors. You know, so what you perceived as authentic here was something that was, you know, was made

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 58:14

for you. Mm-hmm.

Computer Audio: 58:16

Yeah. And now they, it's become this. They've done it. And then what he would do is he would, they had full I'm sorry, Javanese, I don't think I said Ese Javanese costume on. So with Paint, they would come out and he would introduce them and they would sit down and talk to the tourists without paint and be like, I'm a student, I dance. My aunt did this same dance, in the seventies and now I'm doing it. And this was in the nineties. And he, he staged all these very interesting interventions where people got to see how they observed things and kind of also see them in a more complex light. And he got kicked off the tour cause because the owner of the company came along on the trip and didn't like what he was doing. And so he basically had to stay in the back and not talk. But it was a very funny introduction to his book. And it reminds me of what's possible though, when you bring people together. You know, I think what what is possible with what you're doing, you know, can, can have interventions like that that are really interesting.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 59:21

No, I appreciate that. And I think it also makes me remember the, the dangerous grounds that you brought up in your, in your podcast episode and the travel channel this idea of like the coffee hunter and like the travel for adventure and like the caricature. I, I had never heard of dangerous Grounds, but I, you played the, the trailer and then I, I googled it and I, I was like 10 seconds in and it says, what did I say? Said I started with nothing and built my company from the ground up. I was like the first 10 seconds and I'm just like, you were born a white male in America speaking English. You weren't born with nothing. You were born with like the lottery. And so I actually couldn't watch the rest of, of the video. But it's interesting that that was in 2012 and I still, I was hoping that that would be like a much more outdated, a much more outdated like mentality. But I'm surprised at how many, like I just ran across a new company from 2023 that calls himself coffee hunters, and they're still like, I don't know it. We're not leaving that as far behind as I would hope by now, more than a decade on, So it's still much more prevalent. And maybe, you know, I'm sensitive to it so it, it pops up for me more, more frequently. But I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that kind of your experience with the adventure and the caricature.

Computer Audio: 1:00:51

Yeah, I mean, in, in my, in that podcast I referenced this crazy text from a Starbucks package from the nineties, I think from the nineties or early two thousands, you know, of, of this coffee hunter thing. And it's, it's really funny. Dub hay, the biggest thing on there I've used, I've, I've thought of that for years because, and it'd be a joke if I was traveling with someone because I, I turned to them and I, I'd say, I think this is as far as the National Geographic, people went, you know, like we are going beyond where the National Geographic people went, which is like, we've outmanned you, you know, we're more, and it's just like that. It's so bad. But what I do feel, and, and then I tried to cite a current example, which I don't know if I should have done, I felt a little bad about looking at someone's site. But it's, it's this, it's this thing where people really just try hard, they really want something to, to be the way they want it to be. And today I even look, read an Instagram post, and it was about a farm that I know and a farm owner I know, and he's kind of, you know, Between you and me. He is not the greatest guy. And, and you know, he's just lauded in this post about his bravery and all he's done for the community. And it's like, man, it's hard to read. It's a very, very long text about how caring and sensitive he's been and how it's been a tough relationship with the community and stuff. And it's like, yeah, because he's kind of a dick and that's why it's tough. And so, you know, sometimes you get a peek into it like that and you wonder and you just feel like, you know, just like in a tourist narrative in a way, people, the, the place that they go, it's only the last step of a, of a story that's already been written. You know, that you anticipate it and then you just go and you see and it's fulfilled. And then, you know, if it's not totally fulfilled, you write a little bad review of something and you know, trout Trip Advisor. But it's like, it's how much we fulfill the wish that we've just already had for a place to already be what we expect it to be. And I feel like in coffee, in marketing, in a lot of what I feel, I brought to coffee for a long time and still do you know, it's still, it's still, there is j is just wanting to see what you want to see and not see what you don't wanna see. And. But always wondering, you know am I still just being guided by narratives that I don't recognize as easily as the ones I can look back five or 10 years and see? And I, I think five or 10 years ago, let's say it was the height of this really people competing to go, find the best coffee. And it was, it was so full of itself, and I think it's passed on, but what I, I guess what I've seen is that a lot of people look to the United States independent coffee roaster scene as, as being some sort of model. And, and you know, I mean, I remember in San Francisco, like ev people would just come as far as I from little anecdotal things. They'd be like visitors every week in Ritual and Four Barrel and these companies. And they'd be like, I'm gonna go do this in my place where I'm from, you know? And so, seeded this idea about how you behave in coffee, how you interact, how you source coffee. There's a lot of this modeling that goes on and it's a lot of high school. Like, you know, you look at what they're wearing, you look at what they're wearing, and then you sort of figure out, I'm gonna mix those two and that's gonna be me. And there's a lot of that. And so I think it spreads and I think it's something to call out because I. I think there are problems with it and there's, you know, problems with the way people, travel, people encounter other cultures they're not familiar with. Some of those are very understandable, just feeling overwhelmed, feeling at risk, feeling a need to comfort yourself or whatever when you're traveling. But it leads to attitudes and behaviors that are, you know, I think should be looked at. So,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:05:11

Yeah, I really like what you said about the kind of copy and paste behavior that I see a lot too in, in, in coffee. And I think that that's why Well, so trying to have this conversation where you're right, it's like, it's tricky because you don't want to shame people cuz that people, very few people learn from shame, but it is important to kind of call out and note this behavior and say like, how, how can we talk about this without saying, okay, we're not trying to shame you, but if, but there's, there's problematic behavior here. And if this is what's going to be copy and pasted and like take in and trans trans. Formed and morphed into other things. Like it has at its core a either yeah, just some kind of problematic messaging. So if it's gonna get amplified, we're gonna just amplify that problematic behavior even more. And something that I've noticed, especially about coffee culture that you also mentioned is I also grew up in the Bay Area and now I live in UA and the copy shops that have popped up here, it just really feels like a copy of like, oh, I could be in LA right now, or I could be in Berkeley. Like the, everything just feels borrowed and like maybe 5% Guatemala. Like, there doesn't seem to be that much of an influence. Like, it just, especially because Unti was a particularly tourist town, it's a particularly high traffic area. And so, and most, you know, of the businesses are owned by foreigners. So it just, it feels very, I don't know. So then, so then you got even more tourists coming and they see like coffee culture in Guatemala, which is just a copy of coffee culture in the Bay Area. And I'm just like, I don't think you're really getting, it's, yeah, it's like this like kind of self-fulfilling cycle of like, oh, this is what it is here, so if I go make it over there, it's more authentic to what I saw in a producing country or an origin country. And I'm like, no, that's borrowed from your own, like consuming culture. So it's like this like really like tangled yarn

Computer Audio: 1:07:08

well, in the defense of that, that's, you know, that kind of cultural pastiche, that always sort of happens and things are borrowed and copied and sometimes crazy new things come out of it. But not if the copy is too, if there's this kind of just, I don't know, well, you call it like cultural hegemony where there's, somebody sets the, the standard and then people just faw to that and, and try to borrow it and try to look like it. And that, that never works. But I do, I mean, well there's Cafe Noe, which is like my favorite name in the world. I just

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:07:47

That's where I got engaged. Cafe Noe.

Computer Audio: 1:07:50

Really?

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:07:51

Yes.

Computer Audio: 1:07:51

That's

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:07:52

That's where Nick and I, Nick and I had, had a little too much to drink and we're like, we should get married. Right? He's like, yeah. And then it's like another drink. And then Cafe Noe was closed. They closed for the pandemic and they just reopened like a couple weeks ago. Like they've been closed for like three years.

Computer Audio: 1:08:05

I mean, there is like the, the, one of the best things that happens where people I guess, sort of imitate something is they actually get it really wrong and it becomes this other thing. I mean, they get it, right. Getting it wrong and you know, that, that, I think that's really interesting. And I think also, you know what, what I hope you see in Indonesia is people really just going to other extremes with coffee that I don't like and I don't want to drink, but it's like, they like it and it's a, the way they consume it is totally different. Like these super ridiculous whiny coffees that that you know, you just drink a thimble fall with friends and you're like, you order the crazy thing on the menu and you all sit with a little quaff around the table at night and you share this, you know, cuz they, you know, a lot of places just not alcohol. And this becomes a very social drink that's about experiencing some wild taste and like, that's coffee. Oh my god. And, you know, people take it to a different place in a different cultural, you know, a different situation of, of serving it and preparing it. And then I think it's great. And if it excludes me and my sensibility fine, I think, that's where it starts to become something new because it doesn't refer to how they do it somewhere else that, you know, was influential on you or you copied, maybe really neat things will come out of like local. Cultures where, those guys actually do say I work with a farmer. Yeah. Like they went up the week before and they helped ferment the lot that they're gonna buy. And they're gonna go pick it up and bring it down and, and that's amazing. I'm also, can I just mention fresh coffee, like what people can do with coffee? That's not a seed that's supposed to last six or eight months, but like is only two weeks off the tree. Like what are the new possibilities of people who can get coffee locally and work, actually work with a farm to do beverages that I don't even know what they are. So

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:10:19

I think that's a really good point. There's a lot of opportunity there and I think most people don't realize the, the quality degradation that can happen when you spend four months in a container going across the world or, and then experience some shipping delays and then you get stuck in a warehouse and coffee can, can get, a lot of trauma on that road. So I wanted to ask you, so you've been traveling since 2001, I think you said that was when you had your first,

Computer Audio: 1:10:48

Our first

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:10:49

your very first trip. So why do you keep traveling?

Computer Audio: 1:10:53

Well, I, I do want to. I do enjoy it and I do want to like, try to keep enjoying it and find out what's enjoyable. Cuz it makes me want to keep doing what I do. And you know, that is something I'm pretty committed to, you know, like I, I want coffee to be interesting to me. I know that sounds really self-centered, but I do, I do find a lot of things with coffee really boring and a lot of conversations that interest other people. And you know, I just, we did the SCA for the first time with our own booth and we just went as our wacky selves and we did an arts and crafts booth and I know people were just like, whatever. I don't know what they thought, but

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:11:41

What do you mean arts and crafts? Were you like painting macaroni on paper plates?

Computer Audio: 1:11:46

Yeah. We didn't have macaroni, but we would've if I had thought of it. No, we just did all kinds of crazy things. We were, I was trying to think of what can we do for people there and they always have these stupid plastic badges. So I thought we could like be dazzle people's badges. They can come sit around a little table. We had a little table on the floor, you could sit down and I just brought all my arts and crafts from home and glitter, although glitter is actually not allowed in the convention center, but we did, we were, we did it anyway. Yeah. And, you know, I missed the whole show, but when I just would get up and look around, I'd. I'm just not that interested in what I know a lot of people find really interesting. So, you know, part of it is just traveling and thinking about what is this all about? Like what are we doing? you know, what am I

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:12:38

to s e? Do you, did you feel pressure to just like show up and have a presence?

Computer Audio: 1:12:44

Yeah. I, I always feel like I should, you know, it's what you do. You should be there something. And I, I I went in the year before I went as a, as what I thought a true middle-aged man should dress at and look like. And it was totally weird. I just kind of do the different thing each year, I guess now and this year was to actually have a booth and and just actually, you know, have ourselves to be seen or you could come find us. And it was, it was fun. It, and it was weird. And I think, you know, I wanna give, I think Sweet Maria's is such a weird little quirk in the coffee business. Like, I don't mind if we're kind of like, seen as not serious and dismissible. Like I brought my popcorn pop or and roasted coffee and all over there was people with like the, all these new amazing roasters that are like, They're all like five grand for, you know, the roast and the cafe logic was there. That's a cool one. And a bunch of things, and people have gotten really good at this stuff, but you can still roast coffee in a popcorn popper, and it's pretty good. You know, I mean, so just wanted to show up as ourselves, I guess,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:13:55

we have that in common for, for me and, and making coffee and, and fermenting coffee. I really like to use, you know, plastic buckets and like really minimal equipment and just say like, making good coffee is really not that hard. Like we, we put this big circus and we make this like show of it. I'm like, it's good coffee. Yes, exceptional coffee is hard, but good coffee, really not hard. we can make good coffee with very basic tools, very basic like principles, you know, short fermentation. Like it's, it's really not that hard. We don't have to make ourselves crazy. Regarding Ssea, I think it's interesting that I had a lot of, cuz you know, it's an important industry event and a lot of people go, so I was getting messages like, Hey, are you gonna be there? Are you doing anything? And I, we didn't go to s e this year. I haven't been there many years, but every time I told somebody that I wasn't going, the, the overwhelming reaction was like, oh, lucky, like lucky that you can choose not to go. A lot of people were like, no, yeah, I wish I could stay, but I gotta do this. So I was just wondering if, if that was kind of, you know, you felt this pressure to show up when maybe it's not like your favorite way to spend time.

Computer Audio: 1:15:07

Yeah, it's always right at my birthday. Sometimes it's actually on my, I I'd be there for my birthday, so that sucks. But yeah, I was going to, you know, this, this felt different. Like we could make our own little reality there. And and it was, it was really goofy. And I think, I think co you know, a little goofiness is like, to me that's this little spice that needs to be added. I just think in business people just really feel like they have to be seen as being serious and legitimate. And I, I actually have thought a lot about how much that was important to me in coffee travel is to legitimize myself. Cuz I just always felt like I didn't have enough of that. I didn't have enough feeling that in coffee I was legitimate and everybody else had the 1953 PROBAT roaster and everyone else had this whatever espresso machine and new things. But I always wanted coffee to be easy and accessible and to demystify it, you know, to not, to not sort of talk in code, as much as possible. And when you did have to try to explain it. You know, I think that's what I, I like about your podcast so much is cuz I was actually really intimidated by it. And the first episodes are kind of like bootcamp and they're they're really good and there's so much there. But I just realized how much you want people to get it and you want it to be understandable and I really respect that. You want to focus on producers and what their needs are and I think that's really great. But I do think you give a, a really good access to, to everybody who wants to listen, who wants to, you know, understand

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:16:51

Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, I wanted to ask you what you've, as a prolific blogger and a podcaster, what made you feel like you wanted to do a podcast when you write so much? Or how do you find those two different?

Computer Audio: 1:17:06

well I've been really bad at doing podcasts cuz I have like 30 episodes in like eight years or something. I guess I think mostly about how hard it is for me to do it, because lot of times I don't want to hear myself talk and I don't want to see myself. So I, it's kind of, it takes something to get to a point where I feel like I want to try and I do very much this thing you do, which is I just put it out there and then try to like forget about it. And it hasn't, you know, it hasn't always worked for me. I, I. Sometimes I've tried to work really hard on something I felt needed to be said. There was a thing I did about Geisha a long time ago because I'd read a lot about it, I think the problem with my approach was that I, I felt a little angry about the success of Geisha in Panama, specifically, where I felt like it was just about this little handful of group of farmers that were doing incredibly well. And there's a lot of good coffee you know, geisha is, is really nice. Coffee sometimes, you know, quite often. So when I looked back and I saw the history of it and how it was collected, and it was part of the ICO gardens and it was about, you know, that program is about helping all farmers to fight disease and to find stronger varieties, and to have a good genetic database and these great things that organizations do, sometimes to help coffee farmers I believe, and that's, that's, you know, why Geisha exists in the ICO collections that it was taken from in Costa Rica and then planted in Panama. And I wrote this whole thing explaining it, and I guess it was a little snarky, and I just like, apparently was like disinvited from Boquete after that. the reaction because people did see it was terrible. I got hate mail and like, you can't, you're not welcome here. Kind of email. So I, it's made it really hard to say what you think and, you know, I do wanna check and make sure I'm not holding some sort of grudge and trying to work out some, resentment I have. I don't want to do things. I wanna do things that are helpful, but, producing material is hard. So I can understand why you don't wanna see comments. I don't wanna, I don't wanna see any, I don't wanna be disinvited from anywhere else, I guess.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:19:37

So looking back at that piece, would you still, would you just not do it a, again, would you just kind of not say anything about it? Or would you say something about it in a different context? Or is it maybe just unavoidable?

Computer Audio: 1:19:51

I don't know. I, I, I don't think I would do that again. It really took a toll on me. It really hurt, honestly. I'm pretty sensitive about, the energy you put into things is like a lot, you know, I can tell you do, and I feel that I do too. And. You know, I do want to check in with my intentions before because as a person who felt kind of illegitimate in coffee and needing to prove something, I need to kind of note that coming from that place can make you a little weird and do things that, you know, you're not happy with. So, if I'm trying to prove something, then I probably wouldn't have written that. But I think that the information was really good

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:20:33

Was, is the piece still on your website? Does it still exist or did you take it down from the backlash?

Computer Audio: 1:20:38

think it does, but I don't really want it seen. I don't know. Cause I don't know, maybe,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:20:44

But I think that's interesting. Yeah, but you didn't take it down. I'm not encouraging anyone to go look for it. I'm just saying, you made this thing, you had this painful response to it, and yet something about you decided to let it keep existing. You didn't remove it from your website.

Computer Audio: 1:20:59

Yeah. It's funny cuz I did find, I did realize I took down another video that was really controversial too, and it was a joke video I made about coffee buying about it was a joke based directly on dangerous grounds and it got some attention too. And but there was a really nice article that referenced it that. Was pointing out how this idea of the coffee hunter had, become such a trope that you could parody it so easily. And it's a farm in like Papua New Guinea where I was there, and I'm like walking around like misidentifying trees and taking real, like the hardest path to get somewhere with all the coffee, whacking me in the face and then looking at the cherry and just saying, wrong, take the wrong things. It's fun. And I put it up and and then it, it, it it got a lot of confusion. A lot of confused responses. I'll say our, our video on hand cupping, Dan and I made a video about how hand feel we have mouth feel, but hand feel nobody talks about. So we actually were cupping from our hands so we could feel the copy. And that got a lot of, con very, you know, I felt, you know, I guess we were good enough this, we were this straight face enough that people were like, are they serious? Is this, you know, so the, yeah, that one is handcuffing, but the but I think it says something that you can make parodies and coffee, but they're, they're not that out there because people do things that you can't believe. So, And I think that was because there was a company in Colorado who advertised their coffee as hand scooped that

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:22:48

Okay. Can

Computer Audio: 1:22:49

their coffee was special because they hand scoop.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:22:53

Okay.

Computer Audio: 1:22:53

I'm not joking.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:22:55

I, as soon as I hang up with you, I wanna go look up that handcuffing video, because that sounds fantastic.

Computer Audio: 1:23:00

It might be hard to find all. I can send it to you.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:23:06

a lot of this regulation and the conversation around adulterated coffees and like what should be allowed and what shouldn't be allowed, I feel like there's not enough producers who are a part of that conversation and it directly impacts their economic livelihood. And I see it as like, I'm trying to think of an analogy and the only thing I could think of is like, let's say I hate the color blue and I think it's just a really terrible color. It looks terrible on my skin. It just makes me feel really bad. I hate blue and therefore I tell. Some, some fashion company, you can't use the color blue because I don't like it. It makes me feel bad. You are not allowed to use it and sell it to other people who think blue is perfectly fine. Like I just feel like this type of regulation happens a lot where it's like, I don't like it. My feelings are hurt, so you're not allowed to do it and we're gonna regulate it.

Computer Audio: 1:23:52

Well you're talking to the guy. We just offered spiced coffee and I really thought about it. I was like, do I want to go this this way? It was like a Indonesian aged spiced Sumatra. So it was aged with a spice blend and it was really interesting. But there's a lot of new things coming up that aren't well determined, and I think whether people. How they sort of evaluate them in the marketplace, you know, should involve producers too. And, you know, also just like to let people find where that coffee should go. Like if it's not right for this marketplace, and then, but it, it works really well somewhere else. You know, just like whiny coffee in Indonesia or, you know, the levels of fruit that they like in Saudi Arabia. It's like, well, if they like it. Okay.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:24:48

And I think the other thing that comes up again is this double standard of not just machines, like we love our toys and machines on one end of the supply chain, but not on the other. And this innovation, like, there's so much, especially going to sca, you see so much innovation in terms of equipment or recipes or technology. Like there's so much innovation, but we don't, we feel very uncomfortable when producers innovate, like adding spices or whatever that could be, you know, relevant to their culture. We're like, no, no, no, no, not you. We get to innovate, we get to do that stuff. But not you, you need to be pure and authentic and you know, stay in your, stay in your box of what we know you. And I just think that we don't, and again, like that's a fine position to have, like you can have that opinion, but just understanding that there is. A double standard and like I have a lot of double standards with my husband of things I'm allowed to do, but he's not allowed to do. And so, but I'm aware of these double standards, you know, I think that's what bothers me more is not that there are double standards, but that we refuse to acknowledge them and think that there's like this equal playing field all over the place.

Tom: 1:25:54

Yeah, that struck me when I was listening to your, your talk with Vava in Kenya, cuz I think she brought, you know, can a producer look like this? Like, people comment on how she looks, you know, I believe that was text and, you know, she's, you know, impressive and fashionable and you know, is like, and just this idea that like, is that okay?

Lucia: 1:26:20

Right. And how people want to do, yeah, we want, we want producers to do well, but not so well. Like, there's a limit to like our generosity and there's like a limit to what we're able to accept. Where if, if they do have a new car where it's like, well why aren't you investing in your business and why is that a new car and not a new pulp? Or something like that where there's so much judgment how producers are allowed to spend any extra money and that that same criticism is not kind of focused the other way of like, you know, what you wearing? Or how many vacations do you get to go on per year?

Computer Audio: 1:26:52

Cultural prejudices exist and I don't think they're, you know, sometimes they're just crusty old things that maybe, you know, for me sometimes you're, you're just not used to, you know? And the first time you see them, I don't think it's to disallow them, but it's to say like, oh, that kind of changes how I feel. I've run up against, I run up against my own preconceptions, and I know that's because when we think of our coffee and what the classic ideas of really good, clean, washed coffee and we think about the situations that comes from where people do, what they did, their parents did, and what their parents did, and the traditions handed down in coffee. You know, we're very conservative. You know, we have this very conservative bias I think that, we, we come to it with. I think, you know, maybe at least people like myself, we like that and we want it to continue. I'm very, I'm sad to hear when people start single fermenting in Burundi and they stop double fermenting, but I challenge that. I have no reason to believe that. I don't know precisely. It's, it pleases my mind to know that they do this old system that was set up, you know, honestly it was set up in colonial times, and it's from a British system that was imposed upon people. They were forced to do this, this way and to innovate, to say, well, why are we doing this? Is this necessary? Can you tell the difference, you know, and challenge that? I think, you know, I, I feel these two things. One is this very conservative love of washed coffee as it's been. And the way it's produced. And the other is like just a reasonable, a reasonable response to that. It's like, is this really necessary? Would this be better? Oh, well, hell yeah. They should do it if it's better if they can ferment one time or, or do something else that improves the way they're working.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:28:54

Or another like component there would be. The wash process creates an incredible amount of waste water and a lot of pollution. And so by being able to reduce or eliminate one of those washing steps, you create less pollution. So your emissions are lower. And so even if it's not better for quality, even if it's not like shedding an old colonial system, it could be part of the emission of reducing your carbon emissions and being more, you know, I don't know, but I don't know about environmentally friendly, but less environmentally polluting.

Computer Audio: 1:29:25

mm-hmm. No, PENGOS has, has done amazing, the use of, of Eco Pus has done amazing things in coffee that I realize isn't to everyone's, you know, it doesn't please them. And, you know, I struggled with it too, but, you know, in the cases of, of Costa Rica where people c create small mills and locations that weren't the, you know, the old Lenos owners had all the properties by the rivers and could use all the water they needed for these giant mills. And they, they, you know produce, you know, a coffee farmer couldn't process their own coffee. Pengos allowed that to happen where they could just transport, you know, one's one, you know, container of water up the hill and run the old mill the whole day. And in Ethiopia, I mean, it, it, it changed a lot in the west the western part where co-ops could start processing their own coffee despite their location. And then, you know, of course not return that coffee to that water to the rivers and manage it, you know, very environmentally was in a very environmentally sound way. So I think, well some people really don't like the penagos and I like seeing washed coffee where, traditionally fermented. I gotta respect that, what that has done and how that's helped people.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:30:53

I think that's a really good point in that this, this piece of equipment opened up that opportunity for a lot of producers who were previously forced to sell their cherry for a low price. And then if they could process it and sell, you know, wet parchment, or if they could dry it and sell dry parchment, they could make a lot more money than just selling their cherry. And so that's what I'm talking about where a lot of people, because you, when you use this eco, you, you know, eliminate that fermentation step. You don't always get that opportunity to enhance the flavor through this processing step that the coffees can be maybe not as vibrant as they could be if they underwent along fermentation. So that, that's where someone's like, well, I don't like those coffees. I don't like that flavor. That's like boring or flat. But it allowed, I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people to like now process something that they couldn't before. And so I'm like, your preference is really not important. It's like, but we. Presented as like, but my preference is the most important thing and cup quality and flavor and scores is the most important thing. And I just think we're really, really unbalanced in that way where I'm like, your opinion is nothing compared to now. These people can make more money and now their kids can go to school and maybe they can escape coffee and they don't have to keep growing coffee. They can do something else.

Computer Audio: 1:32:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Coffee isn't the answer for everyone. And I think a lot of coffee projects that have gone on, it's, it's like, I always wonder is maybe one of your, the options that you present to people is not farming coffee. Maybe that's the best thing if you're really thinking of, of the, the lives and life improvement. So,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:32:35

absolutely. And I wanted to have another this conversation hasn't come out on the podcast yet, but I think by the time this episode comes out, I will have shared this conversation with Mark from Finka Rosenheim in Peru. So he was on episode 27 and I just got a chance to catch up with him. And he mentioned two things about tourism and, well, sorry. One thing about tourism is that he had some people. I think he said from Switzerland, come visit him. Two, two young guys. We just wanted to learn more about coffee. So it could have turned out to be a potentially very extractive model of their, just like, they're not even buyers, they just wanna come visit the farm and learn about coffee. But they stayed long enough. I think they stayed for almost a month and they really helped out. He had a building project and he, they learned about coffee, but they provided their labor. He said they were, he said he was thrilled to have them. They worked for like a month. They were moving wood, they were helping him, I don't know, with his trucks. Like, they were really contributing. And I think that that's, isn't I, I was like, I was really impressed. I'm like, that's a really cool model. So I think, you know, maybe somebody who is thinking about a trip to say, how can I help? How can I contribute? And sometimes it's like more effort to teach somebody something they don't know. And like, okay, you're gonna get hurt. I don't want you to touch those things or that equipment, but to see if there is something that, you know, as you're visiting somebody, what you can give back. And the other thing I wanted to point out with Mark is that, in that episode, in episode 27, he was really in a difficult place with the prices and he, he really felt like he needed to escape coffee. And a lot of the conversation revolved around, you know, what else could he grow? What else could he do? Diversifying and, and reducing his. Like we talked about having an exit strategy for coffee. Cuz you, like you said, you can't just pick up your land and go somewhere else. It takes a long time to replant. So there's limited options. So when I asked him in 2023 how he was compared to 2020, he does have less coffee because he's planted more lumber and he has, he's reforesting. But that was the better choice for him was to have less coffee, to plant, less coffee, to concentrate on less and to do other things. And so I think a lot, oftentimes that could seem as like a failure. We always wanna have like more coffee and plant more, but maybe a way for success for some producers is to think about other options.

Computer Audio: 1:34:53

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, here at coffee is, one of the things, the cash crop, they grow along with all their sustenance crops. And if you don't really look at the whole picture, and you just talk to people about coffee, it's really missing the whole point of, of what balance works, and for a lot of farmers here, they have too few trees. The the amount of resources they have to have to devote to too few trees doesn't produce enough coffee to make it very worth it. But you know, they kind of continue to do that. So that's one other recommendation, kind of going the opposite direction is either have more coffee or don't have any coffee, I

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:35:35

mm-hmm.

Computer Audio: 1:35:36

But I like the idea of exit. I, I always wanna do this thing from the other side of the mirror. I wanted to always talk to roasters who quit roasting and baristas who quit baristing. And you could ask farmers who quit coffee and like, find out because you never hear from them. Like, you know, cuz a lot of times I have really candid views. I talked to a barista recently when I was surfing and she had quit and she just had really funny and insightful comments about the coffee world as she saw it. You know, having left it. So maybe that's that'd be a great episode is, is talking to the exes and you know, looking back over their shoulder, what do they think? I would love to know farms that that left coffee or you know, how they saw it. If they downscaled.

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:36:25

I love that idea. It's okay. So this is an official call out for if you are somebody who has left coffee or know somebody who has left coffee, we wanna hear from you, so email us.

Computer Audio: 1:36:36

yeah,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:36:37

I'll have all the links in the show notes.

Computer Audio: 1:36:39

We wanna hear from all the quitters,

Microphone (2- Shure MV7): 1:36:42

Yeah. I mean, because that's, that's the perspective I have in my, in my job as a consultant. It's like I, for me, success is becoming irrelevant for me is like I was able to share what I wanted to share and now, You don't need me anymore or you've graduated beyond me. Like, I'm always trying to like get myself out of the way. And so this idea of yeah, they're making yourself relevant or quitting or escaping is, is very interesting to me.

1:37:12

Thanks to you for listening to this conversation. I hope it brought up some interesting topics for you to think about. Do you see your own travel in a different way? What about the role of host and guest? Are there some things that you have taken for granted as you visit coffee producing countries? Also, are you a former barista, roaster, or coffee producer? Tom and I really do want to hear from the quitters. Please send us an email at info. luciacoffee at gmail. com telling us about it. Remember to check out the Sweet Maria's podcast for more thoughtful reflections on coffee travel stories from Tom, as well as home roasting. Another huge thanks to the patrons who make it possible for me to make new episodes. If you want to join our community and join the office hours live to ask me questions or connect with other awesome listeners, go to patreon. com slash making coffee. So all of this will be linked in the show notes, and if you see coffee in a different way after listening consider joining on Patreon and helping me make more episodes. If you enjoy listening and get value out of these episodes, please share with a friend who loves wine or coffee. If you want to be notified when the next one is coming out, consider subscribing to my free and infrequent newsletter at lucia. coffee. Lucia is L U X I A. Thanks for listening, and remember, life's too short to drink bad coffee.