Today I bring you a long overdue second conversation with Pranoy from Kerehaklu in India. His first appearance on the podcast was EP#34 in May 2021
I have been wanting to catch up with Pranoy for more than 2 years, and after spending a week together processing coffee and learning we were able to sit down in Jakarta after the intense week of FTC and talk.
In this new episode we talk about:
RESOURCES
Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com
Support the show on Patreon to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.
And if you don't want to commit, show your support here with a one time contribution: PayPal
Sign up for the newsletter for behind the scenes pictures.
To connect with Pranoy:
Pranoy's Instagram
Kerehaklu Instagram
Website
Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee
Today I bring you a long overdue second conversation with Pranoy from Kerehaklu in India. His first appearance on the podcast was EP#34 in May 2021
I have been wanting to catch up with Pranoy for more than 2 years, and after spending a week together processing coffee and learning we were able to sit down in Jakarta after the intense week of FTC and talk.
In this new episode we talk about:
RESOURCES
Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com
Support the show on Patreon to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.
And if you don't want to commit, show your support here with a one time contribution: PayPal
Sign up for the newsletter for behind the scenes pictures.
To connect with Pranoy:
Pranoy's Instagram
Kerehaklu Instagram
Website
Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee
Hello friends and welcome back to a new episode. Today we continue the theme of talking with coffee producers instead of talking just about them. Longtime listeners of the podcast will remember Pranoy from his first appearance on the podcast back in episode 34 in May 2021. If you didn't catch his first appearance, get ready to be soothed by the smooth sounds of his voice. Pranoy has a type of voice where he could start a side hustle by recording guided meditations. We'd actually had been in talks to do a second episode for a while, but I wanted to wait until I could see him in person instead of doing it over Zoom. So this is another one of those rare opportunities where I get to be in the same room as somebody else and this happened because Pranoy came to Indonesia to be a participant in FTC. It was the, kind of the first time we were meeting in person, but it really didn't feel like it. Meeting Purnoy in real life was like seeing a friend I hadn't seen in a while. After the workshop in Bandung, a few participants went to Jakarta to spend a few days before flying back home. So this conversation that you're about to hear was recorded in Jen Green's living room. Shout out to Jen and Drew from Goodall Exporters for being such excellent hosts. Okay, one of the major themes of the conversation with Pernoy was how often coffee producers are presented in a one dimensional way, or worse, used as props to sell coffee. We also continue the theme of travel that began in episode 54 with Tom from Sweet Maria's. In that conversation, we question the usefulness of all the travel done by buyers and how perhaps we could rely more on technology to make connections and get information. Perhaps not all trips to producing countries are as necessary as we like to tell ourselves. However, in this conversation, you will see the value of travel from the other side. In the conversation with Tom, there was a sense that a part of the specialty coffee industry uses origin trips as trophies or collector items, opportunities to show off and gather Instagram content. But in this conversation, you'll hear the potential value for producers to travel to other producing regions and learn from each other. In this conversation, we talk about his experience interacting with buyers at coffee events like MICE. Which stands for Melbourne International Coffee Expo. He talks about how he has been able to find new markets and to export his coffee. He tells us about running a biodiverse farm and interplanting avocados as an additional source of income. If you check out his Instagram, at kerehaklu, you will see his delicious avocados weighing... Over a kilo each, the size of literal American footballs. And he tells us how climate change and the once predictable monsoon season are currently affecting his production. We also talk about how COVID revived an interest in farm life in India, the Indian caste system and the prejudice that still exists, as well as how Australian culture influenced his view of playing and working. Purnoy also mentions Lorena, who was one of the original FTC guinea pigs. Lorena attended our very first FTC in Colombia. She's originally from Columbia, but lives in Australia and works at Ona Coffee in Melbourne. When she heard about FTC Indonesia, she volunteered to help run the event. It was really great to see Lorena again and to have her help during the camp. When she heard about FTC Indonesia, she volunteered to help run the event. It was really great to see Lorena again and have her help, and I hope that she starts a trend where we have Uh, previous FTC attendees, uh, volunteering for future events. Cause it's really nice to have that context. You know, one of the things that I really love is how tight the FTC community is. And one of the things that I'm most proud of is how often the participants keep in touch, not just with me, of course, which is lovely, but keep in touch with each other. For each camp, we have a WhatsApp chat and long after the camp is over, people are still popping in and sharing their fermentation experiments. They share pictures of their farm and even personal updates like weddings and you know, trips that they're doing. So it's really fun to see that and, the very first one that was, you know, back in July, so it's been over a year, is still pretty active with updates and With general sharing. So after the FTC in Indonesia, Pranoy went to visit Ronnie's farm. Before we had this conversation, so FTC ended, Purnoy went to visit Rani's farm, and then Nick and I went to Jakarta. So he got to see firsthand the amazing things that she is doing. So you'll mention, you'll hear him mention her in this episode. And I just found out that Rani will soon visit Purnoy in India. So, very jealous about that. Anyway, let's get to Purnoy. All right, let's get started for now. I welcome back to making coffee. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So I was looking at our records and it was two years since our last conversation, official public conversation, but you and I have maintained conversations through WhatsApp, through Instagram. You've been, I think you came on a couple of discord lives, right? You were, yeah, that's right. Sharing your experiences there. And then we just got through spending a week together. You came from India to Indonesia, coming to FTC4. So I will ask you a little bit about your perspective on that later.
Pranoy:Absolutely.
Lucia:But can you please give us a background into, I don't know if we went as deeply last episode, into Kerehatlu and your family story with coffee and your, your role today.
Pranoy:Yeah, absolutely. So, Kerry Hucklew has been a coffee farm. I always hesitate at the word that I use because we say plantation or estate back home, but I find that the connotations attached with those words mean different things in different places. So, farm, it's just a large farm, a coffee farm, which I describe as bi diverse. We grow a lot of alternative produce, which.
Lucia:So how large is large? Can you give us an area?
Pranoy:250 acres. I believe that's just about, just over 110 hectares, if I'm not mistaken. And also when I say alternative now, it's interesting because that's kind of changed. I think the avocados that we grow are a big source of income for me, for the people I work with. And something our farm is known for also in India now. And so... That's been interesting. I've been involved with the farm since May 2017. But I would say December 2019 is when I quote unquote made the move and I made a decision to be like, okay, this is what I want to do.
Lucia:And what were you doing before? What was the thing that you left behind?
Pranoy:I was in Sydney. I was in Sydney until 27 between 2013 and 2017. I was doing a bachelor of science in biology, working a bunch of odd jobs. My brother still lives there. So it's been a country that's meant a lot to us. It's it's where I felt I grew up. I think I a lot of the Philosophies, I, or how I view life was sort of shaped by Sydney or Australian ways of life, where work life balance and fitness and things like that. So, yeah,
Lucia:what I've seen, I've never been to Australia, but what I've been able to observe from Australian friends or other, interactions with Australians in the world is that there is a lot of, like, play hard. And work hard and travel a lot. Like, yeah, most of the Australians that I've met are like incredibly like energetic, dynamic people. I get exhausted just watching.
Pranoy:Yeah, yeah. And work hard, play hard is a good description because I like the fact that you finish work at 5pm and you don't check your phone or your email until 9am the next day. In India, it's not like that. I have friends who... So, I do get calls at midnight and I expect it to send in an assignment or return a phone call or take a Zoom call.
Lucia:So, there's a lot more societal pressure in India to like be connected and be responsible and responsive.
Pranoy:Absolutely. It's like and you're seen as not a good worker if you don't and I don't agree with that. I just, everyone needs off time and it's equally important to me and the things I enjoy. So of those 110 hectares, how much do you have planted of coffee and how much is avocado? So avocados and coffee are more or less intercropped. But coffee obviously dominates the surface area, you could say. You could probably say 75 hectares is coffee. We're on a steep incline, so all of it isn't... Some of it is roads on some flatter bits. We've been able to build our home. We have four cabins for guests and tourism is also a big part of our lives. And so, and also we've got a big, my great granddad built a massive drying yard, which is now a drying facility. As of 2021 2022, actually, because I've built these new structures, but yeah, about 75 hectares of coffee. Yeah.
Lucia:And what varieties do you have planted?
Pranoy:So we grow, in terms of species, we grow Arabica, Robusta, and Liberica. In Arabica, we've got a lot of Indian varietals. I don't know if we touched upon it in May, the last podcast, basically. But a big shame or what I see as a shame for Indian varietals is that we've just named them. We've given them numbers, selection 5, selection 5B, selection 6, selection 9. It's a missed opportunity for me because we could have given it any name, you know? And when I hear names of varietals around the world, I'm like, that's a story in itself, you know? We've just gone by the lab. label. And
Lucia:so, absolutely. I think when you have a label and you can say Pakamara, exactly, or Red Bourbon, like, yeah, it sounds more romantic. It sounds more engaging. Yeah.
Pranoy:And I've thought about the fact, I mean, the opportunity of giving them my own names, but I feel like maybe it's, there's no reference point. It's like a question will come with it. Like, what is it? I've never heard of it before. Or, and I can do that with, cause my dad and my father, who also runs the And so it was actually a product of the lockdown actually, where we just had 200 extra saplings and we were like, you know what? Let's graph this on this. And so we planted them in the three year old plants now. And so that's something because the farm is called Kerry Huckle. Someone suggested I call that this grafted varietal Kerry Bicca, which I'm going to do. And so but yeah, otherwise, it's just fairly standard Indian varietals. But in my opinion, they're the best suited. They're naturalized to our soil. And also our shade conditions are super important. Like we've got, my dad actually got Obata seeds from Brazil about 20 years ago. And it's a nice exclusive block, which we can process separately. And we do, but... I can tell the plants aren't really in top notch shape like the Indian varietals which are used to it. They're used to our conditions and so yeah, it's quite interesting.
Lucia:I love that point because I think a lot of times in specialty coffee, we, one of the things that we borrow from wine Is knowing in wine, you can say, Oh, I love Pinot Noirs, but I don't like Merlot's or you can have, you can kind of identify some styles and some varieties that you like. And I think a lot of people are trying to do that with coffee and saying, I like a tourist or I only like bourbon and then just going for the variety and not like you said, asking the question, is this suited for where it is and maybe another variety that's less. romantic sounding is much more nutrient dense. It's much more hearty. It's a better fit for where it is, but it's not the one that we're looking for. So I think we can definitely go wrong.
Pranoy:Yeah, no, 100%. I can tell you at the farming level that you need something that's used to your surroundings. Like I can plant something in, I don't know, up in the mountains and it could sound exotic, but biologically the seed is not developed. And so you're like, What coffee you're going to get out of there, you know, and so yeah, context matters, I think, I think
Lucia:this is a good kind of reminder for producers that are hearing about the varieties are geishas are, you know, it is that are popular and they just want to plant them just to have that variety in their farm and not thinking about what does this need? Do I have? Is this a good match? Because I've tasted some very interesting. Very disappointing geishas in a lot of different countries. Just because it's a geisha doesn't mean it's going to give you.
Pranoy:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And on that note as well, I think it's important because now India is going through a specialty boom. And I'm seeing a lot of farmers in this short period I've been involved turn to specialty. But I'm seeing them also focus on one varietal. And so... 50 70 hectare farms are being converted to. We have this varietal called Chandra Giri, which is the only one which has an India or actually one of two that has an Indian name. It's known as such a mall around the world. And farms are doing like not monocrop, but 50 70 acres of just that varietal. But you don't understand that. Oh, they don't understand that. To say you have about a rain. All the plants are going to flower at the same time. They're going to fruit at the same time. And so they're going to be ruined at the same time. If you have a, like what we have as a selection nine and selection five B. And so it's diversity, even in Arabica, like you will see if you come in the month of December the selection nine is right, but you look at the five B's, which are a robust hybrid. They're still green. They're still four to five weeks away. And so. You need that variety of offerings, especially in a climatically unstable world, in my opinion. So can you
Lucia:tell me more about your biggest challenges as a producer? Is it pests? Is it climate? Like, what do you find that you're struggling the most
Pranoy:with? Climate and workers, for sure. So labor? Yeah, labor. That'll be the answer to any, probably any producer in the world of coffee. With labor, it's interesting because I spend a lot of time. I'm the kind of person who rolls up my sleeves, takes my shoes off. I'm in the tank with my workers and things like that. And it's interesting to understand why we're facing issues. And I think it's because we're in rural India where four and a half hours from the big city of Bangalore. And from what I gather, When I was a kid running around over there the, the older old school workers who we had, none of their kids are there any longer and they kind of want to be in what we call the big cities or tier two cities. And fair enough. I understand that too. Like that's a, a life that a lot of people strive to want and sort of, yeah, they just sort of are motivated by or inspired by But we're seeing an influx of workers from different parts of India that we'd never seen before. And so the languages on our farm has had to change, which is unheard of. We were so, we used to speak our language of Kannada, and that was it. You speak this, or you don't speak this, and that's it. But now we've had to adapt, and there's sign language involved, and so communication is not as easy, but it's... What can we do? We need people to come and work for us, you know, so and then climate is, I could, I could write about the climate of our days, but in this, yeah, four and a bit years or five years almost, yeah, it's changing. People don't realize it's not just a catchphrase or a, I know people use the word greenwashing, but I've seen a change like I've seen in front of me and it's, yeah. Rains are getting sporadic. They're no longer lengthy periods of rain. We get the monsoon, which we depend on because we don't irrigate which used to be 60 days of all day, every day rain. You're just, your clothes are damp. Your clothes don't dry. The soil is nearly saturated. 60
Lucia:days of rain all day.
Pranoy:Yeah. You barely see the sun. And so like that's changed though. We don't get those 60 days or if we do, The 60s spread over 90 days and it's more intense rains. It's like you'll get storms, which in my opinion are incredibly dangerous because you're losing topsoil erosion. So any, any work that you do is kind of not gone down the drain, but it's almost compromised. So I'm wondering
Lucia:too, if you think that this When you have a new workforce and you have a new language and you're saying communication is more challenging or maybe it's something you never had to think about, then that must impact quality if you're not able to communicate in the same ways or even just like new training. So is there any way that you're combating some
Pranoy:of that? Yeah. Like you said, we actually, I, again, referencing Australia, I think my concept of. Quote unquote skilled and unskilled labor has changed. I don't think people who we describe as unskilled that I see them as very skilled in different ways, you know? So that we've had to teach again, which is, which takes time because in your day, they're used to being like, okay, you do this, you do that, I'll do this. But now we've got to be like, you do this and I'll show you how. So it's eating into my day and it's eating into yours. And so to combat that, I think, We have to trust, we have to be like, I can show you in 15 minutes, but I got to go do my stuff. And so that is, yeah, again, a compromise on the quality of work, but also at the same time there's not much we can do. We can't really rely on anyone. And my dad thinks maybe in 10, 15 years we might see people come back. And I see that as well. Like like where we live. COVID kind of took a toll on a lot of people as it did around the world, but these big farms slash estates the owners like ourselves were admittedly very privileged, but more, more people saw it as like sort of holiday homes, you know, they had like big bungalows and cooks and things like that. And They took it as a chance being like, you know what? I'm not going to be confined to my apartment in the middle of a lockdown. Let's move out there. And a lot of them have stayed being like, Hey, I can lead this life. I can live here. And so I think that's been a nice, a little positive angle where we're seeing landowners and farm owners be a bit more involved and sort of engaged enough to be like, I want the best for my farm.
Lucia:So, it's interesting, you're the first person, you're the hundredth person producer that I've talked to that has said labor is a problem. Especially, you know, where I live in Latin America, where the United States is very close by. So, there's a lot of immigration to the United States and the workforce is, the farm workforce is leaving. And, but you're the first person that I've heard be more optimistic that you think it's... It's a temporary or like a phase where there's kind of an exodus, but that people will come back. And I think maybe that has to do with, at least in, in Latin America, when we have the workforce going to the United States, that's where I don't see them coming back to work on the farm. Like ever. I don't think that's kind of a workforce that's going to rebound. So what do you think it is about India that would be different?
Pranoy:Like coming back?
Lucia:Why do you
Pranoy:think they would come back? It's kind of sad, to be honest. I feel like people are not equipped enough for city life. It's hard. I think city life is hard. Yeah, it's hard. In India, we have a caste system. We have these deep riddled hierarchies, which we cannot shake off. It's because of our colonial past, but it's something that... I still see and I'm probably guilty off as well, but I see a lot more and I'd like to think that I've changed myself, but so can
Lucia:you, for our audience that's not familiar with the cast in India, explain a little bit more how many tears there are, what would it look like to be from one cast versus another? How much impacts your daily life? Like what would be
Pranoy:different? Yeah, I mean, there's, there's sort of intricacies that I don't even understand. Like, yeah. But it's a matter of pride and shame and these things where it's bigger than religion. It's like, who, whose son or daughter are you? What caste did they belong to? And by caste, I mean, it's like a social background or a social structure. And it goes back to the days of... This is just obviously very simplistically describing it, but we used to have the priests on top and then the warriors and then the workers and then it's like the cleaners and then they were kind of like what's the word? People who are sort of banished, you know, like being like, you don't, you're not welcome here. What we've heard is the like untouchables. Yeah. Untouchables. Yeah. And so And who would those
Lucia:people be? So I didn't realize this, that this, that the tiers were sort of set up by profession. Right. By what, what place you had in society. Were you a warrior or were you a cleaner? Yeah,
Pranoy:I think I could be wrong, but I feel like it, it has to do with like the so called untouchables were often physically... So disabled. Yeah, yeah. Physically deformed in some way and could be leprosy. It could be like a skin condition and I mean, those are things back in the day you probably we couldn't cure or we didn't know the cure
Lucia:of or and then we blamed people for having
Pranoy:it's your fault that way. You know, that's crazy. But it's the same thing now. It's like like I know some of my workers, like if I were to I don't know, I see someone litter. It could be a cigarette, but a packet of chips on the ground. Yeah. I would be, and I go to pick it up, they'd be like, no, no, no, don't do that. We'll do it for you. And I'm like, it's fine. I can pick it up. But it's so deeply ingrained that you're not supposed to pick up your contract. You shouldn't be lowered, so to say, down to this level. But I mean, I don't see the world that way. And yeah. But
Lucia:so you're saying there are still people that have that view. Yeah,
Pranoy:yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's like people don't realize also like. I think when I got involved with the farm, there was a tag that probably still, I'd like to think that I've changed in a way, but there was, I remember my friends, like my close friends would say, estate boy, and the estate boy is a, is a phrase where you are assumed to have big amounts of land, but you finish work at 4pm, and you, first thing you do is pour yourself a glass of whiskey, and that's, that's the notion, you know? It's like. You're just yelling at your workers, you're getting cooked for, you're getting drunk at night. And so, that's the other end of the spectrum, where it's like, Okay, we have these so called workers and people who are lesser than us, so to say, but on this end as well, there's sort of notions and sort of, yeah, categories that you're placed into, which I think are slowly dissolving, in a way.
Lucia:I think the important key is that they are slowly dissolving, but they're still very apparent in a lot of producing countries. And I think that the reason I like bringing this up, or I think it's important to bring it up, is that a lot of times buyers in you know, in the United States where that class is not as obvious where a lot of the United States is very much about kind of mixing and being at least where I was from, California, not saying all of the United States, but I think there are parts of the United States where it's Not fundamental to our culture to think about these tears in classes, and it's very much about upward mobility and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and kind of coming. It's a country of immigrants. Yeah, being able to change their lives. I think we come from these consumer cultures and then we maybe visit producing countries or we're doing business and we're buying and we still apply kind of our perspective and we apply like our rules to where we're visiting and not realizing that things where we're visiting are incredibly different and that the power dynamics are incredibly different. And so I think that so many times we don't spend them. Spend the time to kind of get to know the culture that we're trading with. I think coffee has a lot of opportunities for, you know, misunderstandings and bad communication and accidentally offending people. I think we could be a little bit more conscious of the culture that we're going into.
Pranoy:For sure. Yeah. And I think it, it trickles down into the buyer seller dynamic. It trickles down into origin visits. It trickles down into Yeah, just a lot of interactions where it's easy to forget that you're visiting a place which is older than you and, and it's it's got a certain structure in place, but it's not that you're oblivious. I mean, you could be oblivious, but also at the same time, you're, I feel like more effort can be made to contextualize it being like, Hey, can I ask you a question? No. Can I read up about this before coming there? And so I've been witnessing a lot of that in the last two years where I feel like people should. Like you go on holiday, you read up about the place you're visiting, you know, it's the same thing. You're visiting someone's home or farm. I think it's important to understand the history of it. Yeah. To be a good guest.
Lucia:Yeah, exactly. In a new place. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, it kind of depends on your culture. Like Do you expect yourself to be a good guest or do you expect the other party to be a good host? You know, and I think that depending on your culture, you have different views, but I hope that regardless of our culture as coffee people, we can think about let's be good guests in the places that we're visiting. Can you tell me a little bit more about how much of your production is domestic? How much are you exporting and how you see those two markets as different? Yeah.
Pranoy:It's kind of crazy to look back at because my first harvest in India between on average November and Feb. So we, I started in November 2019 was my first specialty harvest. You could say at that point, it was funny because I finished that season and it was the first wave of covid when I was planning to send samples out. And so. I literally been thrown into the deep end with coffee and production and processing and getting the coffee out there. And so 2020, 2021 and 2022, in a sense I was almost a hundred percent domestic. So apart from a few F rates of nano lots, which I sent out to roses and different like Australia, for example, and one Sweden but insignificant that probably accounts for one percent, but now the season that just went by a good 55% of my production was exported and that went to North America. And that's something I see as sustainable growth. It's something that I need because India is a growing. Producing and it's just a big industry. The consuming market is becoming more informed. They know what a good cup of coffee is.
Lucia:Because traditionally India drinks more tea than coffee.
Pranoy:Overall, probably yes. But I would say that it depends where you go. Like in the south, we still drink coffee a lot. Like, like by the side of the road for very cheap, you get a small cup of coffee and it's... It's what you eat with breakfast and with your afternoon snack. But, it's never been quality focused. It's never been quality driven. That's changed. Of course, I think people are more demanding in a right way. But I do think, or I have been thinking for a while now. And the reason I exported my first large shipments was In an economic sense, the bubble is going to burst. We have a lot of produce, we've always had a lot of producers. Now the producers are turning the specialty. I feel like there's not enough wiggle room for the roasters to increase their roasted beans prices. And so, it's a struggle to find because the cost of production is going up. It's, my inputs are going up on the daily, whether it's pruning or we have to get climbers to... What we call shade lopping are trees overhead shade trees. And so everything's got the price. I remember during the Russia Ukraine crisis a lot of fertilizer prices went up and it's things you can't control. It's like you suddenly are paying double the next morning for something which wasn't the price, you know? and there's only so much you can say, Hey, I'm sorry. I've got to increase it by. a dollar this year. But I also get that the roasters can't keep having their prices increase. So that's why you have to turn to new markets. You have to turn to in my opinion, like minded buyers around the world.
Lucia:So you think there's a much lower ceiling to what an Indian specialty consumer will pay? And so you're looking for other markets?
Pranoy:Yes. Overall. Yes. I think Like I wouldn't pay a lot to be honest. If I walk into a shop, I'm not going to pay. That's like, I mean, that's just me, of course, but like and it's fair enough. You, you are getting a very, not a limited, but your paycheck or your wages shouldn't be the large amount of it or the lion's share of it. Shouldn't be food and beverages should be fairly affordable for the lay person. But yeah, there's an upper limit. So what's the most you paid for a cup of coffee? In India? Or like... In your life? In Australia I paid... I think it was 15 for a cup. 15 for one cup? Yeah, and that was a one off, I wouldn't do that often.
Lucia:And so what was, was there something special about that cup? Or is that what things cost in Australia? Because I've been surprised at some of the prices of like a beer, or like a pint,
Pranoy:or... Yeah, no, I think that was... It's a top lot. no, overall, you could probably say a filter coffee, a pour over would be five to 6 upwards and I'm at a position where I'm like, I'm not going to question that. Like, hi, I'm a producer. I know, I mean, I don't know the, obviously the deals that have been done, but like, there's a reason it's priced so high and I'm hoping it's the right reasons, but Yeah, you can't really argue with someone's menu or something like that, in my opinion, at least.
Lucia:When I was living in San Francisco, I would say like an average cup of coffee was maybe like a specialty coffee, maybe 4. And I remember going to Blue Bottle for the Yemen coffee for 17 for a cup of coffee. And it was really good and it was really beautiful. But like you said, I'm the kind of person that that's a one off for me. That's not my daily. Or even weekly. Yeah, type of coffee. So I think you're right. I think that there is for most of us, even being in coffee, knowing how much work it costs to produce it. Even we have a resistance going up there. Whereas like, I've definitely been in San Francisco and 17 for a cocktail.
It's like,
Lucia:oh yeah,
Pranoy:it's funny how it just, yeah, we have different
Lucia:anchors. So I think part of it, maybe there's some room for us to like, reshift our, our perceptions and like what we're willing to pay for. But there's some that are just so
Pranoy:deep. Yeah. I found it interesting in Bandung this week there was an Indonesian coffee. I took a photo off on the back of it. It had the prices of cherry, the prices of. All of that. I'll show you a photo and obviously it wasn't in English, but some, I think one of the guys that told me about it and I was like, I mean, that transparency tells you why something could cost 15. You know, it's like maybe it was a 20 kilo lot, which I roasted and I got 17 kilos out of, out of which I cupped and maybe that helps. But of course you don't want to lay all your cards on the table as a retailer or a roaster. So. But, or anyone for that matter as a producer as well, but yeah, maybe transparency could help that. I think
Lucia:that is really interesting. I think it could also be a real eye opener sometimes if you look at, if you actually had to break it down and maybe the, the paper cup, the packaging would be more expensive than the cherries that are actually in the cup. Yeah, exactly. There's some, that would happen more often than people would realize.
Pranoy:Yeah. Yeah. And a little, I don't know, like a little pamphlet that comes with it and things like that. It's just adding layers to it.
Lucia:Right. They paid maybe 10 cents for the coffee and 15 cents to print the pictures of the farm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. To sell it. Yeah. So as you've had to step out of India, look for new markets, get new customers, how, how did you even start? What was that process? How did you even go from making these relationships with roasters in different countries?
Pranoy:I'm lucky that. Again, referencing Australia. My brother still lives there. He's an Aussie citizen now. And so on the weekends, he's at a new cafe with his partner. And so like they spend a lot of time just drinking good coffees. And he's a lot more, I would say, like, socially a lot better than me being like, Hey, this is what I'm a bit like, I hold back a bit, but like he's really good at being like, Hey, this is what my family does. And even if he has a natural salesperson, yeah, yeah, he's really good at it. And so it's like just the conversation started being like, I really liked your coffee. And oftentimes in Australia, especially the smaller places, if you go often enough, they take notice and they'll be like, they'll ask you about the coffee about yourself. A fair few roasters I've met. have been through my brother and so very personal relationships, which, in my opinion, is really important. You need a sense of accountability, especially if you're a roaster and you're taking a gamble on. Okay, now India is kind of not making waves in this kind of people are talking about it in certain parts of the world in coffee. But there's still a bit, there's some question marks being like. I'm like, am I going to get the quality that I am expecting or the whole, the old story of the pre shipment sample, not matching the arrival sample or
Lucia:there's a trust issue for sure with a newer origin to them
Pranoy:for sure. And I think just having my brother that helps a lot being, they're like, okay, I can call him. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's great. You know, but I mean, also you can't always do that. I realized that you need to have a buyer who. Trust you who you trust and is going to communicate what you communicate to their potential clients. And so that's the bigger game, I think, which I'm leaning towards, but I love to have a relationship with the roaster. I think that's super important. And yeah, that's how it started.
Lucia:So what was the role or what motivated you to go to Expo? to SCA or have you
Pranoy:been to World of Coffee? Not World of Coffee, but MICE and London Coffee Festival so far in the last year and a bit. Yeah, I just wanted to sort of put myself out there, put my farm out there, see where we stood. But it's funny because being at MICE and MICE last year, 2022, made its comeback after I think that was the first one since 2019 because of COVID. And so it was massive. It was a really big expo. And even being there, my perception or my sort of angle changed in the, where I was like, okay, I'm going to hand out samples. I had green bean samples and my business card and some roasted samples as well. And that was day one and day two, super enthusiastic about meeting people and making connections. But I think at the end of day two, I realized that, you know what? I'm just going to observe, like, I'm going to go for all the cuppings that are scheduled. I'm going to talk to people. I'm going to be like, what do you think of this? And what, where are the pallets at? What are you drinking? What are your offerings on your menu in your, in your cafe? That was really helpful because I remember my dad's friend, just giving this analogy of he, he kind of pushed us to go for expos. He's like, Just go see what's out there and he was like, it's like a don't feel bad in your first expo. It's like being a salesman or a salesperson and getting the door slammed in your face. And I think that's a really good analogy where you're shot down sometimes and not given a chance. But there are definitely people who you instantly are. I have instantly connected with and been like, you know what? I'd love to get my coffee to you. And obviously involves. A lot of steps, but a good first interaction. And how did
Lucia:you feel as a person of color in that space?
Pranoy:It's hard. It's hard. I know, I think this stems into just my, my experiences of living in the western country and visiting western countries and being a brown person just over there. Who is in a minority, you know, and so I have to say that I think at both LCF, London Coffee Festival, and the Melbourne Expo, I, maybe people feel differently, but it's like, what are you doing here? Is the sort of... Do you
Lucia:feel out of place? Yeah, yeah,
Pranoy:the question running through their heads is what are you doing here? And I'm like, I grow this. I have been growing coffee. Since way before your roastery was even founded and maybe not me, but my family and so, it's like I know you had Mark on and I really resonated with a lot of things that he said, because you're expected to not interact and expected to be confined to certain parts of the value chain, but also at the same time It's an importer's world. That's, that, that was my main takeaway from mice was this is an importer's world. And it's kind of sad in a way, to be honest, but that's the, the game is the game. And so you've got to play it. And so, I don't know, I feel like it's even within the structures, like I know there was Colombians and Brazilians who I met and had amazing conversations with them, but just being an Indian coffee producer is even. Is like level or layer two to this and so it's like you got to fight the Preconceived notions, but then also you got to fight the hey this is My coffee and this is how it is. And so yeah, there's obstacles every step of the way
Lucia:I struggle when a lot of producers, you know, they asked me if I think if I would recommend they go to an expo or if they, you know, they think it's worth it if they've never gone before and it can be a, it is a big investment to get your flights, to get your hotel, to spend money, to like transfer around. So it is a really important decision for a lot of producers to even attempt. And I think that it's helpful to hear that it's, it's not for the faint of heart. It's not for the thin skinned because you will get a lot of doors slammed in your face. I think that the other, my experience going to expose is that. People, most of the people go to see people they already know. There's very few people with an open mindset of like, I can't wait to meet a hundred new people. They're sort of going to nurture relationships that already exist. So maybe they've been in contact for a long time, and they've never met in person, and they want, so there's still new relationships, but that's not most people's, like, majority of, of what they're trying to accomplish. So I think that, I still recommend for producers, like if you have the means and you have the time, I think that it can be a very fruitful, like you can make connections and relationships, but to have that, that context in mind of like, you know, be ready to put on your thick skin and just kind of like go out there and, and it's a numbers game, like you said, you're going to talk to a lot of people and a lot of things aren't going to, for sure,
Pranoy:because you could, there's a risk of coming away. Yeah. feeling worse than when you went, you know, before you went. And so I think that's horrible to be like, I've put
Lucia:in thousands of dollars just to feel bad about myself. And oftentimes I think about the samples as well. Like, are they even roasting
Pranoy:the sample that they get, which is probably one out of a hundred roast green bean sample. And so one thing I have to say to producers is maybe give yourself two days before and two days after, if you make a connection with a person. Meet them away from the expo at the expo. You're just I mean, you can't blame them. It's just you're in this big hall. Yeah. It's like a fire
Lucia:hose of information, energy, and
Pranoy:activity. Yeah. And so even if you want to make an effort, unfortunately, sometimes you don't have the energy because you have to do it for 4 days and repeat yourself and have the same conversations and yeah, all of this and it's transactional. And so I like that. I used to go like mice, especially my brother lives there. So I went a week before. But I was like, I would write to people being like, Hey, I'm here from this time to this time. I'll see you at the expo, but let me know if and when you have time. And then if you're meeting someone in familiar surroundings, like the roastery or the cafe, it's a lot better. You may, it's not, it's not to say that you'll find a buyer, but you will at least have a more meaningful relationship than being like someone in line at a booth. You know? Yeah. Absolutely.
Lucia:So I was going to ask if you, at Expo, you felt a little bit... Out of place and you and not just felt, but people were giving you that vibe of like, what are you doing here? Yeah, did you feel like some of that came from the sense of well, you shouldn't be here. You should be on your farm You should be there working on the coffee. What are you doing?
Pranoy:Yeah, I get that a lot. It's like also me as a person I have other goals and dreams in my life apart from coffee and So it's like hey, why are you here? Oh like hey You should be
Lucia:coffee all the
Pranoy:time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like this is an expo which is dominated by espresso machine suppliers and I'm like that's a part of it and that's the consumer facing side of it but it's not to say my work is harder than yours or I don't want to get into that because it all matters at the end of the day but yeah, we've been doing this for so long and I see, I get that question a lot when I tell people about what I do otherwise and even being in Jakarta right now might surprise some people, you know, it's like, oh, you leave the farm or you leave your country. And I'm like, yeah, I do. And I think the notion of a young, not just young, maybe like older producers as well, like we want to lead normal lives and we want to lead lives which involve holidays and involve expanding our horizons.
Lucia:And how important do you feel that the travel has been for you in terms of, you know, getting new ideas or getting even just rest?
Pranoy:Huge. Yeah, like, I think you just get so caught up. I think India is, again, nascent market, nascent industry. But like every time I step out, I'm like, wow, these people around the world love coffee. And so, like, I would be so confined to the thought process of, okay, I need to supply to this roaster or I need to work with this person and this micro lot needs to be portrayed this way. And it's just experience. I think just been doing this for a while. That's helped me get here where I'm like, it's okay. If you don't work with someone again, or you don't work with a certain coffee with someone again, and there will be someone out there who loves your coffee. And you just got to find that person again. It might be a challenge to get the coffee to them. But that's my biggest takeaway that if it's a so called over process, funky coffee that someone your old buyers or your existing buyers might not like, I can guarantee that someone out there will like it. And you just have to get it to them and negotiate a price. But that's been really nice because It pushes me as a producer to maintain a standard, but give me enough freedom to play around with the processing.
Lucia:So what are your, as a producer, what are your future goals? What do you want to accomplish? What is something that you've been trying to, like, what direction do you want to head in?
Pranoy:It's funny because I spent these few years thinking that. I've got a lot of catching up to do in terms of research, in terms of information, and I don't deny that there is this so much even sitting at the FTC, I came away with more questions and in a good way because I'm like, I thought I knew but I had no idea, you know, and so it's like, I'm keen to how I put it learn and apply. And so I think my goals. And we were actually a cup of coffee one morning and I brewed one of my wash coffees and where I'm at in my producing and processing journey, I guess, is wash coffees. I really love wash coffees and I see that as the next step or the next, the next sort of in demand or highly consumed process in the In the specialty. Well, I know it already is and people are getting over the the funk. But I think I'd like to sort of pioneer India and Indian specialty as being quality focused. I think we do have huge land holdings and do have huge farms, which are comparable to a few parts of the world. But So unique to us. I think we're so dependent on, past sort of experiences and past reputations. You could say that we need to break them. And I think I'd like to spearhead that and be like, we can be a powerhouse of an origin because we have the coffee. We have the volume. It's just not convert that focus on it. Be specific. And I think Yeah, that's I know it's vague and broad, but I think that's what I, that's what I foresee being like, it's not that it has to be me personally, but I feel like there's a few, a group of us who could be like, this is modern day Indian specialty coffee. And I think I'd like for my farm to be at the forefront of it.
Lucia:I think something really important that you bring up is in specialty coffee. It's a young industry. and I think so many newcomers to the industry don't realize how young it is and think very much like you that there's all this information and I just haven't learned it yet, or I haven't had access to it yet. And the reality for most, most of those topics is, well, we haven't researched it yet to begin with. It's not that all of this information exists and is written and you just have to like sit down and read it all. Yeah. It's that. And I think that coffee really hasn't been given the scientific space to study a lot of these things. So a lot of questions that come up in the FTC, how do the flavors actually get in? We haven't done that research. It's not that you don't know it. It's that no one's done
Pranoy:it. Yeah, yeah. And I think maybe that's I mean, I've been thinking about this as well and about like how how do we not have an encyclopedia or a like a Bible so to say about processing, but and I wonder if it is because Coffee is grown in so called poor countries. It's not like wine, which has grown in France and Australia and anywhere else around the world and where the consumers are a lot geographically closer to the producing side of things here. It's obviously being shipped from a different part of the world. And I feel like that has a huge, that, that is a huge reason for it that it's grown in so called third world countries. And that's why only now are we looking at this. Boom of research and information being put out there. I, I
Lucia:completely agree and I think that it's, you know, kind of the elephant in the room. Like, no, we don't want to admit that coffee has been ignored or forgotten because it's in developing countries. I think that has to partially to do with why the developed nations of first world countries haven't. Bothered or cared to do that research and why those countries themselves haven't done it like those universities or that those resources or that equipment like the amount of infrastructure that it takes to study some of these things are millions and millions of dollars for the equipment. And so it's not like, you know, it's not like that's just widely available.
Pranoy:Yeah, yeah. And what we were just talking about reminded me of an interaction I had in London where I had a copying. Away from, the coffee festival with the roaster. I met to I won't name names, but through a common friend of mine or an acquaintance. And we got my coffees, they enjoyed my coffee. we were sitting and chatting, before I was going to hop on the bus. And I, I still strongly believe that in 20 to 30 years, There's a huge possibility of Arabica as a species not existing. And so I said this, I was like, Hey, like we're talking about robust as an Arabica and I was like, I don't know, my gut tells me that in 20 years it's touch or go, you know, it could be, it could swing either way. And right now I'm not confident. So I'd rather not be naive. And I said this, I said, 20 years from now, we might, we might not be talking about these coffees. And he looks at me dead in the eyes and he says. Nah, that's not happening. And I was like, what do you mean? I was like, he's like, nah, Arabica is not going to go extinct. And in my head, I was like, you live in Shoreditch, you live in London, I live on a farm, and I grow these plants, and I see these plants every single day, and you're telling me that, okay, you may visit a farm, or a couple of farms for two weeks in a year. And you know more than me about my plants or plants anywhere in the world. That's, that I didn't, I, I've gotten to a point where I just smile. I shook his hand. I said, thank you for your time. It was nice to meet you. I'm done. But that's it. This dynamic of we know better. Oh, you don't know what you're talking about because you're from here. And that's crazy to me.
Lucia:It's wild too. And I think that, you know, that's, that's I've heard similar stories like that of producers speaking out and not even speaking out. You're just like, this is my observation. These are the facts around me. We used to have 60 days of rain every single day and now we don't, right? That's not an opinion. You're just sharing what's actually happening. And so many people in other parts of the chain just not believing or not wanting to acknowledge that. And I've, I've heard that from, you know, other, other sources. And I think that there's also this big, gap between the potentially the research side, maybe giving him the benefit of the doubt and not being just a completely lost person. Maybe he's read some research about new varieties and maybe there is all of this, a chatter about, you know, how we're going to save these things and sure there's opportunities to create new plants and there's opportunities to create. More disease resistant or more robust varieties, but taking something from an experiment and the lab scale and actually translating it into the farm, I think that a lot of people have a little too much confidence in what science is doing and how difficult it is to implement something like that on a large scale in real life across so many different conditions. So I think part of it is like, I know one of the themes that we've kind of kept coming back to is being a little bit more humble about what we don't know. Yeah. And just saying, like, there's a lot of
Pranoy:unknowns. Yeah, yeah. No, and I think like, you, you hit the nail on the head. It's so much of it is theoretical. It's just on paper. We, we don't know. And something you brought up with the FTC that are in the FTC that I've been thinking about is the, the forecast or the predictions. It's not the fact that it's a five year blip or, you know, it's, this is the future. It's only going to get worse. And so. So I think maybe, or this is my take on it, a thought process is that if you hear this climate change and lack of rains or too much rains from a producer, it, it creates this dynamic of, we need more money. And I think that's why there's a bit of resistance being like, are you saying this so you can get paid more? But we're not, we're saying this because it's not going to exist. Yeah, exactly. You know? And so it's, tough. I think that's why I'm very grateful for the farm that we have, which is biodiverse, but it might sound crazy, but I'm kind of bracing myself for a potential future, maybe 30, 40 years where it could be a forest. It could just be, I'm looking at it as land now and no longer a coffee farm because you don't know. It's not just about all eggs in one basket, but it's about. it's your people is a community of you're looking after and who depend on you. And so that's why ecotourism and for me, avocados and things like that, I think are going to be more and more important.
Lucia:I think that this is something that I really want people to hear as well, that we in the specialty kind of community talk a lot about quality and improving quality and flavors and innovation. And I just feel like that's kind of a distraction and missing the point. Like. I don't think it should be a quality thing. It's like coffee is just going to disappear and even not just from the climate pressures or the lack of investment or lack of money and people abandoning their farms. So there's that there's we're not going to be able to grow coffee here because the climate is not going to allow it. And then, okay, there's not enough money. So across Latin America, so many producers are just abandoning their farms. So they can't afford to continue farming. And then there's another part, other producers like yourself or even Mark. From Finka Rosenheim in Peru was saying he's growing less and less coffee. He's planting other things. He's planting more forest He's choosing to grow less coffee. And I think that is also another Avenue that producers are going to be You know facing and so I think our pool of coffee is gonna get smaller and so it's not to be so like negative or like alarmist, but I think this is Something that we don't want to look at. Yeah. And I think, I'm just hearing it from so many producers in different countries, at different scales, in different situations. The future is not more coffee. Yeah. The future is less coffee because you're diversifying, because you're thinking about the environment. Or you just can't. Yeah.
Pranoy:Right? No, and I, and I don't doubt that there will be, maybe not varietals, but species which are more resilient. That might be away from the Arabica and Robusta, sort of. Common species are commonly drunk cups that we have that could be something and but just think about that. You need that. You need to plant those plants. Now, if you're looking at something 20 years from now, because yes, it takes a few years to sort of naturalized, but also at the same time, you need a few generations in there to produce top quality coffee and drought resistant plants or flood resistant plants. And so yeah, we all just need a plan now. I think that's the the takeaway is that don't wait till it's too late.
Lucia:Yeah, I think that's another thing a lot of people don't realize is if you think about planting a coffee plant, maybe you could get a crop in three years. But when you're talking about new varieties that takes 15 20 correct. Like actually start that cycle. So it's not just like, you know, these things Are going to take a lot longer to figure out and I think that we kind of aren't being as, as honest or as cautious or even as humble as we are about facing the future. I think we're a little too confident of like, we'll figure it out. And I'm like, I'm, I'm just not seeing, yeah,
Pranoy:yeah. And I think that's why I was seeing, the production and the growing and then the production of coffee outside. What we call the beanbelt, the top between the tropics and I feel like we need, I think that is the future to be honest like you get a little more wiggle room in temperate areas as opposed to the sort of, yeah, the tropics where we are and so it's not to say that you can grow coffee well outside, let's say in my context, Bangalore City, but if it's growing there and if it's less variable. You never know. Maybe in 20 years that could be an area which is sort of a new origin. And so yeah, experiments are super important. And that's why I like visiting farms, which are unorthodox, so to say, or like sort of not fitting to these norms or sort of expectations of the past. And so, yeah, I think that's where we're at.
Lucia:Can you share a little bit about what maybe some of the ideas you had about processing before you came to FTC and if there was anything, any information that kind of changed your mind or maybe adjusted the way that you're going to process?
Pranoy:I think overall, to be honest, it gave me a lot of confidence to know that what I've been doing is on the right track. I think it was just like, maybe in certain ways. I liked how you put across, like for me, I risk being the good washed coffee guy. And I don't want to be known as the good washed coffee guy. I want to be known as a sort of diverse and sort of flexible processor of my coffees. And right now it's washed coffees, but that's why whether it's Koji or my Liberica or extended formants of. I think it's important to have that variety and sort of have that list of offerings in a sense. And I think from the FTC, I think I realized that it's not so hard and fast. I think I was thinking about, okay, if I get 87 with my wash coffees, what can I do to get it? To 88. 5 or something like that and it's it's deeper than that, you know, it's so it depends on The climate on the day depends on how clean your ferment tank is, how many hands you have at hand. so many different things. And I think yeah, I, to be honest, my biggest takeaway would have to be keeping an open mind to yeast. I think yeast or something that I was like, I can do every now and then, but just seeing how you can standardize things, you can repeat things. I think that was really, really impressive and it was really interesting to watch different yeasts and the analogy you use of describing different yeasts as different kinds of dogs I think
Lucia:is... Different personalities.
Pranoy:Really important because you just see people, I think in India especially, you see yeasts and you're like, okay, cool, you're expecting funk. Yeah. Or you're expecting a certain thing, but that's not it. You're meeting your end goal, but in a more systematic manner, maybe.
Lucia:Well, and I think it goes my personal philosophy and what I try to bring across in FTC in the same way that you were kind of talking about wanting to have a life outside of coffee. Like what I want to transmit to producers is we can make really good coffee with a much smaller investment. And then go on vacation, then go do something else, you know, versus these producers that are spending a hundred hours on these fermentations and these like multi step, multi processes. I'm like, man, we can, we can do really good coffee in 36 hours and go scuba diving,
Pranoy:go do something else. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I think Rani is a really good case study. I was, no joke, one of the most impressive producers I've ever met in the world. She reminds me of my friend Nima of Lekali Coffee Farm in just outside Kathmandu in Nepal. Wow, incredibly resourceful, knowledgeable, and the full picture, you know. She, she roasts, she cups, she has roasted beans available for the internal market. From what she told me, she's exporting the processes that I would never have thought about, you know, like the the luwak and things like that, which. Wow. That, that's, I feel like it's, it's a really good example of literally doing the most or bringing the most out of what you have and, and she's only just started, you know,
Lucia:I was going to say, yeah, the really impressive part about Ronnie is also, she's a newer processor and she's, A lot of these systems that she's been able to work very quickly to get them in place and to get them successful. And she's also an excellent example of somebody who does travel. She does visit the expos and she does have like this access to just creativity and new ideas. And she's a mother of three about to have her fourth, like she does.
Pranoy:Yeah, for sure. And I think what, what I really liked was that I, I talked to her about. A wash, a double, a double soaked wash process that she did and, and then I was telling her, she tried one of my honeys and she was like, Hey, what did you do? And then I told her the process and she's like, okay, I'm going to try that. She wasn't arrogant or stubborn to be like, no, this is my way and I'm going to stick with this. And I was, she was like, I'm going to try that and see how it goes. And so that's open mindedness and that's the only way you can, in my opinion, get better and admit to. Not your shortcomings, but that there's sort of room to learn and that that was amazing to
Lucia:see. Well, I think Ronnie is also somebody who has a lot of confidence because I think that that speaks a lot to her. That she tasted your coffee. She talked to you producer to producer. You were able to explain your process and she with the open mind said. I'm going to try that, that's interesting. But in one of our class sessions, she was mentioning how a buyer had told her, you should be doing this, you should be doing more naturals. And she very easily said, I don't agree. Like, no. You don't tell me what to
Pranoy:do. Things stick to your guns, like, or like, if you don't want to make, sort of, if you don't want friction, just say, I just say yes. You know, I'm not going to say no, I'm not going to do this. I just say yes, but I do things my way. If you like it, you like it, you don't, you don't. No worries. Yeah, amazing. I think that was really impressive. And it got me to think about my coffees because we brew maybe two, three times a day. And another producer had one of my washed coffees. And I know we talked about this where we said that they said, Oh, it tastes like a Kenyan washed. And like you described it, it was like a backhanded comment almost, you know, where It's, it's great to hear that because there's a standard of Kenyan wash and it's up there. It's right up there, but
Lucia:right. So they meant it as a compliment. Like this is a well structured, well made coffee, like good for you. Yeah. But it means that you're denying your identity. Exactly. I'm not Kenyan. I don't want to be a Kenyan. I'm an Indian producer.
Pranoy:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And that, that's what I think is, it can be a pro or a con because In one way, I always think that the bad reputation we've had in the past, where it's high volume, low quality, robust as has done more damage to our reputation than being like that in certain parts of like North America, for example, I met a lot of people who didn't know we've ever grown coffee. And for me, no reputations better than a bad reputation. And so you're just starting with a clean slate. And so with this coffee, I was like. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm thank you for saying that. And that's what you think about when you had my cup of coffee, but we're also so new that we haven't been able to define, define what a top quality Indian washed coffee Arabica is. And so yeah, I can swing either way, but I feel like it gives you a canvas to play with, you know, where you can define things and you can sort of Again, pioneer, but also at the same time, you've got to be systematic and manage expectations that come with it.
Lucia:I wanted to ask you about the idea of consent and pictures and images
Pranoy:yeah I think there's been a lot of cases where Our workers are looked at as props. They're looked at as, okay, can you look up for a second and hold those red cherries in your hand? And we'll take this photo. And it makes me think of a zoom conversation. I just watched. Where Diego Rebello of Akihares in Costa Rica put it really put it across really well what really resonated with me was the fact that he talked about how with his workers or workers around there. If you were to ask them in their language, would you rather be photographed at the Sunday market or at work on this farm? Everyone's going to say at the Sunday market because like you and I, we're going to be next to or in the ferment tanks in not our best clothes and our clothes that we don't mind getting dirty and things like that. That's the same thing. It's it's you go to work in your work clothes, you know? And so it's not just this one particular incident, but like it's a dynamic where yeah. You feel like you can't say no, also, you know, and it comes to me as well, but I'm like, I'm here. I'm going to be buying your coffee. I expect to take these photos and I expect you to say yes. And you're in a weird place because if you say no, you're thinking about the fact that it's rude. Yeah. Or will they, will they not buy my coffee because of this? And it's, you're thinking about all these things where Now I'm very particular. I'm like, Hey, these are the photos you can take. These are the people who speak. Yeah. I said, these are the people who speak English. These people don't speak English. If, if you want to communicate with them, I'm here. My dad's here. My manager's here. They can translate for us. But yeah, it's, it's, it's not right. You know, it's like you can't walk into someone else's workplace and take photos of them and use it to portray. Your portrait to your clients, but yeah, I think there's a lot of that going on. And so it's something we have to be careful with. And I
Lucia:something that was really, you know, striking in this conversation in this idea is that you're right. When we are taking pictures on a coffee farm. When we work there or at the mill, it is our worst clothing and you know, we're dirty and we're sweaty and you know, you're tired because you've been physically working or just kind of dealing with the realities of processing coffee. And when that is the only picture of you that exists in the world, and that is, that is the image that we have of people that work in these places. Then. We're just associating like who they are based on that image. So it's always dirty and tired and in kind of this disheveled state when you don't really get to see the person as a whole person. And like you said, when like these people have other other lives. And so for me working in the coffee farm in Columbia in the mill I would see everybody. working. And then on Sundays we would go to the town and go to the market and, you know, shop our groceries. And everybody came to town, like these coffee producers and even the pickers, they would come to town in their Sunday best hair slick back really nice button up shirts, their shoes polished. I mean, they looked like completely different people and you know, in that sense, and there was so much pride in their appearance. But if we're only ever seeing them in their work, work clothes, We're just painting such a picture of this type of work. And I think that we don't realize how much, inadvertently, it, like, erodes dignity. And really makes us, or allows us to see people, like, in this one way. And I think that, that's something that I really loved about Baba's book, the Milk Coffee Blood. That being, producers being seen as producers want to be seen. Yeah. Not as we see them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, in their, you know, having the... Their own gaze versus like the buyer gaze. I thought it was a more important work that there's not enough of.
Pranoy:Yeah. Yeah. And I think also with on that note, like India runs that risk of exoticizing an origin. It's like big farms, 80 people working for you and you're striving to be the best. And we are, but two different ways. We, like how we mentioned Australia and the sort of balance, like, It's about taking that couple of days off and finishing work and buying whatever you need from the market or whatever it might be. And so yeah, I think that it's a power dynamic, but it's also sort of a mindset that it just needs to change.
Lucia:So, yeah, thank you for sharing Well, as we wrap up, is there anything else that you had wanted to talk about that you're excited about or?
Pranoy:I think, yeah, I think, it's been interesting to see, just with the FTC and sort of coming together. that they're coming together of producers. I feel like what was really good is that I think we can bring together a community of, in this case, producers who were not really competing. You know, it's like, Hey, I can tell you what I do and you can tell me what you do. And it doesn't, it's not that you are eating up into the other person's slice of the pie and I think that can be huge just building this community of give and take sort of relationship between producers, which I found through your discord channel, actually, where there's people like Lorena, who I met, I'd never met before. It was just through the channel. And so it's like, Hey, I can ask you a question of Paula, who she asked me about fermentation stuff. I asked her about roasting stuff and vice versa as well. And so, yeah. I think the connection of people on that end of the value chain is incredibly valuable. I think it's non competing again, but yeah, I'm excited just to go and again have the privilege to travel and learn from other people. I think that's something that, yeah, I'm super excited about.
Lucia:Awesome. We'll end with that because that was beautiful so don't you just want to be Purnoy's friend now? You know, one of the points that stayed with me from that conversation was when he was sharing his experience of how climate change is affecting his production and the change he is seeing on the farm over several years, and was basically being told like, nah, I disagree. Like, I, I disagree with your facts. So I thought that was really interesting and, you know, some next level hubris. another point that I keep thinking about, I've thought a lot about ever since this conversation, was, He, I appreciated how he pointed out the missed opportunities for Indian farmers in naming their coffee variety such unromantic names as Selection 5B. It's a small detail, but it can be a huge drawback when trying to reach new markets. So next time you're buying a bag of roasted coffee, try to keep an open mind and notice how much of your buying decision is based on a name. And, you know, I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another. I don't think there's really a right way. I just think it's interesting to think about what we are drawn to and why we buy what we buy. And it's total human nature. We buy things based on how they look. For example, if I'm staring down a huge wall of 300 unfamiliar wines, meaning I know nothing about these wines, like I just walked into a new wine shop or something, I will absolutely buy one wine over another depending on what the label looks like. So just on looks. And I'm not necessarily looking for what a label says, meaning I'm not looking for any buzzwords like organic or sustainable or estate or reserve or anything like that. I'm talking about the literal design of the label. What colors and what typefaces did they use? Like, what does a label look like? Not what does it say? Like, not what is the information content on that label? However, instead of picking the most aesthetically pleasing bottle, the most aesthetically, you know, cool design, I actually do the opposite. I have a, a policy for buying unknown wine that I pick the older, dumpier looking label. And from being in the wine industry, my, my reasoning is that the flashier the label, The more effort they put into the design, the less the wine can speak for itself. So, that's why I look for ugly labels where wine brands couldn't be bothered to be flashy because the wine is just so good. If you take, for example, some of the wines that we've talked about on this podcast, like the Chateau Margaux, some of the most famous, the most expensive, the most revered and respected wines have really boring, dumpy labels. You know, no color, no flash, they haven't been redesigned since, you know, The 1600s like they're just like a white label with some beige writing, you know, telling you the name of the winery and pretty much nothing else. There's very, you know, little design elements put into these labels and those are the ones that I find not every time, but over and over again, that's kind of what I'm drawn to if I don't know anything else about a wine. And I also have used this. Theory on mezcal. So when I'm looking to try something new or potentially to buy something, in my experience, the best mezcals that I've had are usually come in like a reused container, like a jug that was originally something else and the labels are really simple, you know, black sharpie writing on masking tape. Oh, and one last thing I am so excited to mention is that, although it's not 100% yet, Pranoy and I are in talks to do an FTC camp hosted in Kerehaklu, perhaps at the end of next year, so the end of 2024. So like I said, we're still in the planning stages, and I will absolutely share more details as we come up with them. But in the meantime, if you want to be notified of future camps, you can get on the wait list by writing to info. lushacoffee at gmail. com and putting wait list in the subject line. And while you're at it, please tell me a little bit about yourself. Another thanks to the patrons who make it possible for me to make new episodes. If you want to join our Ko fi community and join the office hours live to ask me a question or connect with other awesome listeners, go to patreon. com slash making coffee. If you see coffee in a different way after listening today, consider joining on Patreon and helping me make more episodes. You enjoy listening and get value out of our time together. Please share with a friend who loves coffee or wine. If you want to be notified when the next episode is coming out, consider subscribing to my free newsletter where I share, things about the podcast and then sometimes I also share some life updates so you can sign up at lucha. coffee and lucha is L U X I A. Thanks for listening. And remember life's too short to drink bad coffee.