You cannot utter a sentence about Vietnam specialty coffee without including the name Will Frith.
In this new episode we talk about:
RESOURCES
Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com
Vietnam: A New Vocabulary Video
Support the show on Patreon to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.
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To connect with Will Frith:
Instagram
Website
Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee
You cannot utter a sentence about Vietnam specialty coffee without including the name Will Frith.
In this new episode we talk about:
RESOURCES
Inquiries about coffee samples or future Fermentation Training Camps: info.luxiacoffee@gmail.com
Vietnam: A New Vocabulary Video
Support the show on Patreon to join our live Discord hangouts, and get access to research papers, transcripts and videos.
And if you don't want to commit, show your support here with a one time contribution: PayPal
Sign up for the newsletter for behind the scenes pictures.
To connect with Will Frith:
Instagram
Website
Cover Art by: Nick Hafner
Into song: Elijah Bisbee
Hello, and welcome to episode 57. You cannot utter a sentence about Vietnam specialty coffee without including the name Wilfrith. Wil is the guy, capital T, capital G when it comes to Vietnam specialty coffee. My first introduction to Will was watching his Rico talk titled, Vietnam, a New Vocabulary. First of all, what an amazing title. You know, your girl loves talking about words and coffee vocabulary, so I was immediately gonna click on this video. And it's unlikely that many of you have already seen the video, but I sincerely hope that you check it out after listening to this conversation. I have it linked in the show notes. Will was born and raised in the United States. His father is American and his mother is Vietnamese. As he was growing up, he went to Vietnam several times to visit his family, and then in 2013, he decided to move to Vietnam. In 2019, he opened a wholesale coffee roasting company, called Building Coffee, with his partner Kel. In 2021, he opened Bell, a specialty coffee shop in Saigon. In his Rico Talk, Will challenges us to disentangle our Western view of the American war in Vietnam from the Vietnamese people and culture. The war ended in 1975. Forty eight years ago, he shared that the median age in Vietnam is 33 years old. So while in the West, Vietnam is still synonymous with that episode of history today, much of its population knows a very different country, one that doesn't always live in the shadow of this war. One point I especially love is how Vietnam has a domestic closed loop specialty market. Vietnam is known for robusta production. They produce 30 million bags of robusta to 1. 1 million of arabica. 30 to 1 is a pretty dramatic ratio, which would make it seem like arabica is insignificant. And yet that volume of Arabica is almost more than double, double what El Salvador or Kenya produces. So that's just to put it in context of how much we think about coffee from those areas. And then thinking about, you know, Vietnam, Arabica really doesn't ever make it into our radar, even though there is a lot of it. Will also talks about a lot of themes familiar to listeners of this podcast Like how to make buying trips more equitable and thinking about how to make them more of an exchange rather than an extraction also talks about how often our current model centers on the buyer's agenda and questions the benefits that accrue in the direction of farmers This video is so refreshing so nourishing that it was a deciding factor in our Asia travels when we were planning before we had everything settled for FTC, Nick and I wanted to take advantage of the 40 hours of travel from Guatemala to Indonesia. We knew we didn't want to go halfway around the world and turn around and just come home right after the camp. But we're aware to go. We looked at a map and salivated with the opportunities. Should we go to Thailand? Cambodia? The Philippines? We even considered going to Australia for a minute. But after watching Will's video, I knew Vietnam was the winner. In 19 minutes, I knew I wanted to visit Vietnam and meet Will. The best French wine is in France. The best German beer is in Germany. The best Guatemalan or Kenyan coffee... It's probably in New York or London or Dubai. But the best Vietnamese coffee is still in Vietnam. This is powerful. This is what I wanted to see. Soon after watching the video, I started reading some of his blog posts, and it was very clear how well our philosophies of coffee and life mashed up. Or, I guess, overlapped. Like you'll hear me say in the recording, before I even met Will, I knew we were friends. Not that we would be friends, but that we already were. We were already long time friends who just hadn't met yet. I knew Will and I were long lost strangers slash friends, but what I wasn't expecting was that we would also be couples friends. It wasn't just that the two of us hit it off. It was that the four of us had great chemistry. Will and his partner, Kel, and myself and Nick. Will and Nick went to get haircuts together, and Kel and I went to get our nails done. This conversation... It was recorded in the few hours before Nick and I went to the airport because I realized we had spent a week going to lunch and dinners and drinking coffee, cupping coffee, walking around Saigon, and just generally hanging out. And after five full days together, I still hadn't captured anything that I could share with you. I meant to capture his refreshing take on what it's like to be in a producing and consuming country. I meant to bring you a serious and important conversation. But instead... I bring you something more casual, And you get a sense of what it's like to hang out with us. In this conversation, Will cautions us against bringing a Western mindset to Vietnam. We talk about French occupation and the resulting mash up culture, including some of our favorite foods. He talks about the importance of a middle class to support a new coffee category of specialty coffee. We also learn Will's rule of thumb for cheap coffee and what he drinks first thing in the morning. We learn about his journey from being a coffee purist to being more reasonable. We talk about meeting people where they are. One thing I really appreciate about Will is his emphasis on meeting people where they are. Because I know, as a coffee enthusiast, we can often alienate people from what we are trying to bring to them. And with Vietnam's specialty arabica in such high demand within Vietnam, Will and I contemplate the question. Who is copy for? I'm so excited for you guys to meet your new friend, Will Frith. All right, let's get started.
will:Hey, will. Hey, Lucia. How's it going?
lucia:Welcome to your apartment.
will:And making coffee. Yes, thank you. I'm glad you're taking full advantage of the executive suite here. Absolutely.
lucia:Well, actually, I did want to say that I have been wanting, I have like a whole list of things that I want to talk to you about and questions that I want to talk about and I think that I over, I underestimated My energy levels in a busy place like this and just like our timing. So I'm definitely going to do like a more thoughtful part two with you. When I get home and have my space, but I wanted to take advantage of our time together just to have some more casual chats, talk about coffee. Oh yeah, for sure. Get some background into. Just the Vietnam specialty coffee scene. Oh yeah, for sure. From the guy.
will:And, you know, like, we couldn't expect that the chemistry between all of us would be so, like, like, I feel like it's kind of an instant friends moment.
lucia:Yeah, but are you actually surprised?
will:Yeah, because I never, I try not to expect things like that. It's like serendipity cannot be expected, or it's not serendipity. Mm hmm. Yeah. So I expected nothing and got everything. That's very sweet. So it's been great. Well, and I, I, I hear you on the low expectations. I think that is also part of my personality. But I, when I started reading your blogs and reading what you had to write, I, I was like, no, this is already, like, we know each other. Yeah. Like, I already have that feeling, and I think it's interesting, I'm kind of curious as to your perspective as to, we live on opposite sides of the world. Yep. And we work on, you know, pretty different parts of the coffee chain. I work mostly with producers, you work with roasters, and you have a cafe, so you are much more consumer facing. Yep. And yet, I feel like our approach to coffee and life is very similar. 100% agree. So, I'm wondering, you know, what you see some of your... Like your philosophy about coffee and some of those things that maybe you've been able to, that kind of transcend parts of the chain and that are just like principles of how you approach coffee. Well, it's definitely evolved a lot. When I first came out here, I didn't really have much of a plan and I was definitely like a lot of people who are just enthusiastic about specialty coffee and sharing the gospel and all of that stuff within it. And then as I started to notice people's responses and reactions to the, the whole paradigm I was bringing there were two, I think, equally illuminating responses on one side, there was like this deep enthusiasm and the hunger for just collecting knowledge that to some extent I could relate to, but also that turned me off a little bit. Because then you just end up with a lot of like the equivalent of Google experts. When,
lucia:what year was this? Like what time frame?
will:2013. Okay. And so there were a lot of people who were enthusiastic about what I was offering, but also it just became like another pair of sneakers in their collection, you know? And I was like, no, that's not exactly the attitude I want to like encourage in this. I want, I want people to like recognize that these are. You know, livelihoods that stretch all the way through a supply chain that we need to like, be thoughtful about. And so like that, although the enthusiasm helps get the things started what we really need is just a little bit more temperance and like a good pragmatic mindset towards this. On the other side, I started recognizing that what I was bringing was a bit overwhelming And so on the opposite side, I found that some people were a little bit overwhelmed and perhaps even threatened at the paradigm I was trying to bring. Because they thought I wanted to replace the coffee that they grew up knowing and loving. Which is not at all like part of what I wanted to do, like by bringing specialty coffee to Vietnam, that a place that already has a strong coffee culture. I was hoping to introduce the concept of diversity within a familiar product. And so like coffee is this way now, but it can be so many ways. And so finding that was actually the, the side of responses that I attached myself to the most was like, okay, so bringing a new paradigm is very threatening to some people and I want to learn how to like kind of cushion that and make it less threatening and make it more of like an opening and broadening of horizons. So when you
lucia:say a new paradigm, you're, you're speaking about the concept of specialty Arabica.
will:specialty arabica specifically but then like kind of broadly like just ways to look at the same thing differently which that came along a bit different a bit later like I said it was a bit of an evolution of an evolution of sort of my mindset around it in the beginning it was like I have the specialty coffee paradigm from the USA I want to bring it to the world very much. I think that would be kind of a colonialist mindset. And then as I got more experience here, I started to temper that a little bit more. And so I would say it has evolved into kind of being a bit more, I guess, yeah, thoughtful is the word. And now I think the main approach I take to any and all of this this information that People want me to share or that I want to share with people is just kind of like a how can we make this easy? What's the simplest way to? Apply whatever it is. I want it whether it's like paying attention to your extraction or Timing your roasts that sort of that sort of mindset. It's like how can that apply to their the paradigm? They've already got and then if they want to pursue something more like the international specialty coffee movement, how can we bring them towards that without just kind of smacking them over the head with a bunch of books? So that's kind of how my approach has changed a little bit.
lucia:Well, let's back up a little bit. If you could help illuminate a bit about having worked in the United States, and you worked in Washington, right? And you worked in Texas as well? Yeah.
will:Not so much in Texas. I'm from Texas, but I didn't really get my coffee, my specialty coffee career started in Olympia, Washington. And then I spent a little bit of time in Portland, Oregon with, with that. So
lucia:how do you compare the Pacific Northwest kind of coffee consumer scene to what you've experienced here in
will:Vietnam? It's really, really different. In. Although the, I would say the similarity is that it's very entrenched and people don't want to change it, right? And so like in the Pacific Northwest, it's very much like, you know, don't bring your fancy flower coffee to me. I want this dark, whatever stuff. And then in Vietnam is very much like, don't try to change my daily iced coffee with condensed milk habit. And so that I think that those similarities are kind of where it ends. The main difference is the occasions for consumption are quite a bit different. So I couldn't bring my cafe operations mindset to Vietnam. I had to learn to understand like when people went for coffee to places. And so. Even if I decided to open up my cafe at like 6 a. m. to try to capture more commuter business, it would not work well. Because the commuter here wants to get a quick and easy on the side of the road kind of coffee first thing in the morning. And then most people who drink coffee here have it once in a day. And because it's Robusta, they're not gonna have multiple cups. And so I would say that's the biggest difference in the U. S. I think per capita consumption is like three times. And in the Pacific Northwest, it could be as much as like four or five times the amount as Vietnamese people typically drink. So that informed a lot of like what I was doing here and why I decided to do what I'm doing at the cafe where we're, even though my roasting company does a lot of Robusta by volume. We don't sell any of it in the cafe because my, my mission here is to just try to increase per capita consumption. And I can't do that with the high caffeine content species. It's funny you
lucia:mentioned that. I don't know if I've told the story on the podcast before, but one of the things that kept me away from coffee for a really long time was in 2008, I was working in a first floor coffee shop in the financial district in San Francisco. So it wasn't a cafe. It was like for the building for like the business people there. And I had the first shift. So I would leave at four 30 and like go and make coffee for people, like open it first thing. Cause people, San Francisco want their coffee at five in the morning. And I would, you know, make coffee for them. And then I'd see them again at like 10, and then I'd see, cause it's the same people, and I'd see them at lunchtime, and then I'd see them at 2, and I'm like, these people have coffee 4 or 5 times a day, and it was so expensive. So at that time I remember thinking like, oh, I don't want to be part of this like club, I don't want to be part of this group, cause I just, that was like my only model of coffee consumers, was like you had to be that I don't know, like that addicted to it. So, one of the things that I have noticed in my short time here in Vietnam is, I, I wanted to come here because I wanted to see A culture that was a strong producer and a strong consumer culture. I wanted to see how those two things go together because where I'm from in Central America, it's, it's so rare. And most of the cafe culture that is like developing that I've seen in Columbia and Guatemala is very similar to, it's just kind of a lot of stuff borrowed from the state. So it doesn't feel like that organic of those cultures. It just feels like we're seeing. What Europe is doing. We're seeing what America is doing and we're just going to bring it here. So I wanted to see if there was more of that authenticity feels like a charged word, but something a little bit more like homegrown instead of copy and pasted. So all of this to say, I really have been inspired by. How coffee is consumed here. How pumped people are about consuming Vietnamese coffee. Like, I really feel yeah, just inspired it. I feel like, you know, sort of refreshed about that coffee perspective. But still just as an outsider, seeing it briefly. So I'm just wondering if you could give a little bit more kind of context into the culture here and what you've seen and maybe something that I'm missing. Like,
will:I think if we back up like more than a hundred years at the kind of. Past the peak of French occupation and towards them finally like getting booted out, there was this moment of kind of mashup. And I feel like Vietnam is very much a mashup culture for a couple of reasons. But at the end of French occupation came things like the banh mi sandwich and pho soup. And so before that, there were lots of different types of soups in Vietnam. But pho came about as like an, like an attempt to make a French style brothy noodle soup. And so it, it was kind of a mashup of, of Vietnam and France. I'm not even sure who's responsible for it, but and then so I, you know, then with the bánh mì sandwich, of course, there wouldn't be any bread in Vietnam if it wasn't for that. And then so moving forward, there were so many things that came as a result of that. And so what I'm seeing now is at first in specialty coffee here, there was a bit of a copy paste culture. People wanted to do what the Europeans were doing. People wanted to do what the Americans were doing. And now I'm starting to see people combine things from the local coffee consumption culture of like just sitting on the street drinking Robusta drinks with lots of sugar or milk. And bringing that into kind of a modern style of cafe. And I think that that's one of the most exciting, like, points in the coffee movement that's happened here. And so historically mashup culture and then, you know, like geographically, it makes sense that it's that because if you look at where Ho Chi Minh City slash Saigon is situated on a map, It's kind of at this confluence point to where everything from the north, Mongolia, China, a little bit of, you know, Himalayan area pointing straight down at Saigon, and then everything from the west of that would be India, Thailand, Cambodia, so all that's like moving towards and meeting in Saigon, and so this is like a huge shipping port as well. So you can see like where all of this kind of mixing and blending of cultures starts to happen here. And so it's, it's almost like saying nothing is sacred. And and so anything that gets introduced immediately gets blended and churned into whatever is going to happen next. And so that's, that's what I think culturally is important to understand about anything that's introduced into Vietnam is immediately going to get... Taken up, maybe copied for a couple of years, but then it's going to be blended into something else. And that's, that evolution is kind of what's really exciting about being here.
lucia:Well, I'm wondering too if that's also maybe kind of a consequence of like culture, like a sine wave of culture of like things first diverge until they have to come back and converge and then they kind of, you know, it's like you have to copy enough and then it's like long enough that you can then make it your own. Right. And then at some point, like there's just like this, like swinging back and forth. So I think that maybe in Central America, we're just in the baby stages like we have to still We have to go through this like learning process of everybody kind of converging on something feeling comfortable enough to then diverge
will:and I think like there's also very much like the nearly There's there's almost like this nearly external need For the macroeconomic circumstances to be right, right? If you don't have a middle class that's growing, that has the right level of income at the right time when information or a new product category is introduced to a place, then there's not enough uptake to sustain it. But right now, the trajectory of Vietnam's middle class is, you know, buying cars, condos. Experiencing lots of different things from the outside because there's this hunger for experiences. And if that doesn't exist in a place, then it's really hard to sustain anything that's new or introduced to the culture. So
lucia:how much is a cup of coffee? Can you tell us what a, you know, like, if you're a worker, you're commuting to, and you get a cup of coffee on the side of the road from
will:a vendor. About a buck. One US dollar. Okay. Sometimes cheaper and I, I kind of have a rule of thumb about drinking coffee on the street. If the cup of coffee is as cheap as like a bottle of water, I'm not going to touch it because there's a lot of adulterant, a lot of adulterated coffee here. And some of it's not even coffee. It's like burnt corn and soybeans blended together with some coffee essence and flavor. So, and. But do you
lucia:sometimes get those
will:coffees? Sometimes and you know, it's not exactly the fact that it's like not pure coffee. That bothers me. It's that there's no kind of Standard about food safety and and health and sanitation and a lot of these very low What would we call it? But yeah, just the, in that category of coffee, there's just not a lot, you know, protecting the consumer.
lucia:So you're not being like a coffee purist. You're just worried about
will:your... Right. I, yeah, I, I definitely, I've gone through my periods of being a total purist, you know about coffee. And then I've, over the years as I gain more experience and seen more examples of things have just gotten a lot more reasonable. And Just, that's just kind of, that seems to be my response to everything now in coffee is just like, be reasonable. I totally get that. Yeah. And, and kind of being involved in customer service day in and day out. Most, most of my F and B friends would heartily agree with the sentiment and, and we've probably all heard it before, but like, I really do believe we need to meet customers, meet consumers where they are. Even if that just means reaching your hand out so you can pull them up the steps, you know, like it really is important not to alienate people with what you're trying to bring them because that could put a really bad taste in their mouth for future opportunities to experience a similar thing. And so what I mentioned before, like in the Pacific Northwest, I've heard plenty of coffee drinkers saying, I don't want any of that fruit flower coffee that you're bringing. Because somebody had ruined that introduction to, for them. So I'm very mindful of that and really just, yeah, be reasonable. That's all I ask.
lucia:So if one of those, you know, kind of more traditional coffee experiences for most consumers is about a dollar or a little bit less, then if they wanted to come into a specialty shop and get Some, a more elevated cup. What does that cost?
will:Mm-hmm. I'd say like expect anywhere between,$2 50 cents all the way up to$10. Just depending on how special the thing is. If you're getting like a latte, it's gonna be in the$4 range, maybe up to six. So it's very much on par with just about anywhere else in the world I would say. Mainly because the cost of ingredients is pretty much the same. Supply chains don't change their prices based on the local culture. So I'd say expect to pay wherever you're from, same prices. And
lucia:How do you feel that it's different being in a producing country where your coffee doesn't have to travel as far and that you have such access to the producers and that you're able to, you know, have these relationships where you can check in on the coffee traditionally in the coffee shops that they're producing? We're used to in the States coffee has to come really, really far and have long distances, long delays in shipping and sitting in warehouses. It's like, what advantages
will:do you think you have? Well, I mean, besides the smug satisfaction that I get from it I think the advantages that it has is just like this really kind of like closer connection and a more meaningful kind of relationship between. The production of the coffee and the consumption of it, people are having a cup of like delicious specialty level Arabica coffee that was produced less than six hour drive away. And that's like almost a source of like national pride for some people. I know a lot of folks who myself included, like, I don't consider myself very patriotic in any way, but. When I hear some good news about Vietnam, I'm like, I feel a little bit of, like, warmth in my chest about it. And so I, I can only imagine what it must feel like to be a Vietnamese citizen, having their coffee being, like, internationally recognized as something good.
lucia:It was this idea. It was from your blog, The Vietnam Coffee Guy, where you were talking about, It's like, who is Vietnamese coffee for? Yep. And so the fact that you have such the, that Vietnam has such a strong consuming culture, and that people here do want to pay for this coffee, and yet some of the better, better prices are usually exporting prices, and that's not necessarily true here. Right. And so like you're shifting, it's like, it's like this completely, I don't know. Upside down for us. Right. Kind of paradigm that the better price is here. And so this idea of like, who is the coffee for? Is it for the people that make it? Or for the highest bidder? And so I think that there's also this kind of, the note that I wrote down is like, you have been also brought up in a western culture. Yeah. For me also, my American capitalism is like, Oh, it's for the highest bidder. And then we have like Vietnamese communism where it's like, no, it's for the people. And so having, so I just wanted to ask you specifically having a foot in each of these cultures, like where do you land on that, that
will:question? Well, I intentionally asked it as an open question because it brings up so many good conversations out as a result, you know, like it really gets. The people who, for the 12 people who have read my blog, there, there have been 12 distinct, like, good conversations that come out of it because everybody comes out with their own meaning from it. But I mean, who is it for? I think it's, I think it's for anyone who is curious or anyone who would have something to gain from experiencing it. You know, beyond satisfying curiosity, more like maybe like the quasi national pride thing I was talking about before. But I don't have a precise answer for that. Like, who's it for? It's for me because I'm enjoying it. I'm the one who's enjoying it. I think it's for the person who wants to enjoy it. That's who it's for. Whether that's the producer who enjoys sharing it with a buyer or a roaster or someone, or whether that's, The consumer who's coming into a cafe and purchasing it. I don't necessarily think it's for trading companies and exporters to determine. Like, it might be for them, but it's not for them to determine. And so, highest bidder, I don't know if that necessarily makes a thing sustainable. But definitely the most consistent bidder. I would say is more important than the highest bidder. Yeah, but I still don't have an answer for that exactly. But who, I mean, who is coffee for in general? You know, I think we're, we're coming up at this sort of introspective kind of a moment in the coffee industry altogether. I'm a big fan of the Instagram account coffee black. Because they're asking a lot of hard questions. I have never had their coffee. I don't know anything about it. I've met I've met someone from there once maybe at a at an event. They wouldn't remember me But I really appreciate the questions that they're asking and the kind of the issues that they're bringing up Because it's it's not about It's about answering things, it's about questioning things, and I think that that's so much more important. I completely
lucia:agree, and I was, I was kind of cracking up because I was thinking, I often like to do that too, just like, pose a question, be like, not my responsibility to answer! Like, it's just, I'm just gonna toss this out there. But since I have you as a captive audience, I was like, nobody usually gets to push me, cause it's my podcast. I was like, you
will:asked. So, Lucia, who's coffee for?
lucia:No, I, you know, I, I, I also wanted to ask you about that, like, do you have that opportunity to, like, who do you talk to about these questions? Like, do you have that sort of community to,
will:I mean, I don't want to make it sound like, like any sort of way, but like in Vietnam, I don't necessarily have that dynamic of of, like. experienced coffee industry peers to talk about these questions with everybody that I interface with in general are either like people who want to learn something or people who want to enjoy something. And so they're not necessarily looking to make it more difficult for them themselves in their brain space. These are things that I usually talk with with industry friends from the States or from Europe. Online, basically, so I'm not discussing these big questions on a regular basis with people, so I have a lot of time to just kind of mull over it in my own brain, and then maybe sometimes write it down in my very intermittent blog. But sometimes I can capture the question, someone will read it, and they'll reflect it back to me, and then I'll remember, oh yeah, I did ask that question. So, it's not necessarily consistent there's not always a point to it, it's just kind of like a brain dump, in a way. Yeah,
lucia:I really appreciate that you're able to make these posts, like, very concise, and very, they're very tight. And a lot of the times I'm like, oh, it took me like an hour of a podcast to like get around to like something. And so I really admire when I can just like have your
will:snapshots and blog. I have the benefit of editing. Nobody sees me in the process of writing any of this. And then my partner in life, she's a very good with words kind of person. So I owe her a whole lot. Kel is like probably. The reason that there's even a blog that I'm contributing to online.
lucia:I think we share that as well. And Nick, my partner is also the editor and the polisher and somebody who contributes a lot to the things that we get to put out. Yeah.
will:Kel has a really good, like kind of BS meter as well. She, she'll be like, yeah, you're, you're totally full of it right here. I think you need to delete that paragraph or find a different way to say it. And so. I totally appreciate that. Because I, I kind of, I get impressed with myself a little too easily if I'm left alone, you know? That's mostly how I
lucia:operate. Like, you saw pictures earlier of our house on the mountain, and I'm like, I spend a lot of time alone. I spend a lot of time, like, just kind of in my head, so it is really nice to have that like, what's that called? The, like, backboard? Bouncing board? No. Sounding
will:board. Sounding board. That's it. Yes. Yes. We're so used to being intercultural, we lose these little words for
lucia:things. Sounding board. I'm glad you brought up coffee black too, because I, I also have never met, I think it's Bartholomew. I've never met him, but I just was one of those things with like a very small introduction of like the concept and the brand. I was like, so in, I was just like, yes, that more of that. And I also really like that most of, at least the communication that I've seen is not about processing and it's not, it's like appreciating coffee from a different angle about. Where it's coming from and who's making it and that idea of like who who gets to enjoy it, right? And so I really really admire What they're doing.
will:Kind of like my sniff test for coffee things now is Is somebody trying to oversimplify Something that's really complex, you know, and so saying that coffee is all about What's in the cup, or all about what's, what the roast color meter is reflecting, or whatever, like people are trying to distill coffee down to. I kind of turn away from that. I'm like, no, you have to embrace the complexity because it is all these things, but it's all these things. And so I really appreciate what Bartholomew is doing by bringing a cultural and a political element. Back into it because it is those things you can't, you can't detach politics from coffee because it's such a charged industry and it depends on politics to get movement in the world. And it also, it also kind of brings up a lot of things. I just read a really great blog entry from Christopher for an about Ethiopia and my God, it It contains everything, you know, economics, philosophy, culture, politics, and all of that is relevant. And unless you're willing to accept all of that as being a part of the big thing of coffee, you're kind of diluting yourself. In a way.
lucia:And that's also one of the reasons why, and I haven't been able to articulate it as well as you just did, why when we talk about coffee, I get so bored talking about flavor, or like things like, I'm like, that is the least interesting part about coffee, like there's so many things that we could talk about, and like, flavor notes, I just, I can't like, get excited about that as much anymore. Yeah,
will:and the same because, you know, it's like vanilla chocolate strawberry, you know, like. Are you going to just limit all of coffee to one of those three choices and say, this is quintessential and what everyone should like? It's like, no man, 31 flavors, right? Like let's, okay. Now that we recognize it's complex and it has all this to offer, let's push that aside and start talking about the other stuff. Right? Yeah. I get bored of that too.
lucia:Well, and I think. I want to add something that I don't think I'm disagreeing with, like, the general sentiment. I feel like we're saying the same thing. But I think sometimes we can get lost in thinking that complex is always better. Or, like, I think the easiest thing to do is make something more complicated. And so I think of that way when I'm... Trying to make a processing protocol where it's like, I want simplicity. And I think that once you understand the fundamentals, like things don't have to be so complicated in certain aspects. And so I think a lot of times it, it seems okay for doing. 24 hour fermentation than 50 is better. Okay, now we're going to do like a double soak and now we're going to do like a triple soak. And now I'm going to do it like a honey plus 100 hour fermentation that you can continually add and make something more complicated. But that's
will:not for sure. No. And I think we're talking about it pretty much the same thing. We're not disagreeing. I'm talking about in terms of thinking about coffee, right? If you're going to think about an industry, if you're going to talk about the way something should be appreciated. You have to accept the complexity. That's basically what I, what I think. But when it comes to action, when it comes to protocol, when it comes to teaching, you have to simplify, right? You don't, you don't go into an intro to biology class and immediately start getting into organic chemistry. That's just like the wrong way to teach somebody something. And so I think, yeah, yeah, as a teacher, as... A maker of protocol. You have to simplify. That's like the only way to get a start in anything. Yeah, like you said, it's easy to make things complicated.
lucia:Well, it's interesting. I was wondering if you had any more insight into the moment where, or not necessarily the moment, but kind of your, how you're thinking open from being. More of a coffee purist, maybe more traditional, and then Unlocking and saying wait, this is way more complicated than I thought or having more of that open mind Because I think it's like you need that simplification to enter and then you have to like graduate out of it
will:Right, right, and I think for me that came due to the response That people close to me had to the things that I loved in coffee. And so when I was drinking I was drinking super light roasted coffee and I was trying to share it with my dad who's been a lifelong coffee drinker and he hated it. He's like, no, I'd rather have my cup of Folgers or Hills Brothers, whatever he's drinking. And then, you know, he, after he brews a pot, he puts a scoop of fresh coffee grounds on the spent coffee grounds and brews a second pot. And he, he's an environmentalist. I guess so. He's way more efficient than I am. But at the same time, like, I can't tell him he's wrong, like, what's right, you know? And so, those, those sorts of things just kind of illuminated to me. And it's like, well, I think it's pretty fashionable now to say taste is subjective, but it, it really is a subjective thing. And like, who am I to tell someone whose favorite color is yellow that they're wrong? And so, I think that it, it really made me. Step back just a bit and, you know, just climb out of my own ego and recognize that, like, coffee is for everyone. That's who it's for. And no matter how they enjoy it, like, we've got to, like, celebrate it and hope that they want to learn more about it. That's the only hope that I have.
lucia:I've also shared, I think, the story of my mom, how she loves lattes and, but she has, like, a very High ratio of milks. I've always teased her that she likes milk. She doesn't really like coffee. But one of the things that I realized is, Oh very recently, only recently did I realize that my mother taught me the ritual of coffee. She loved making her coffee. Even that was like 90% milk. It was one of those things that I got to observe early on in her. Just how she would like get in the zone and prepare it. And it was something that she couldn't miss every day. And in the beginning, when I was a teenager and I was like, you know, being obnoxious and rebelling against my mother it was one of those, another thing that kept me away from coffee for a long time where I'm like, that's her thing. Like, I don't want to be coffee. Like that's Emma's thing. But now reflecting, I'm just like, she loved making her coffee. And it was something that I could really notice made a difference in her day. And she. at her machines and her, all of her little carafts, and I can really appreciate that element of it, so that it's not just, you know, judging the quality of the coffee that's going into the cup, but the whole ceremony of preparing it, and that was, like, really lovely, and I was just like, oh, it's such a dick,
will:for like... Oh, for sure. Like, one tiny example is my morning ritual is to make an iced pour over. Every single morning. And that might be sacrilege to some, but I could just as easily make a huge batch, stick it in a bottle, keep it in the fridge and just pour a glass in the morning and not have to brew coffee for like five days. And it would be acceptable. I could, I could totally handle it. It'd be fine. It, in my opinion, it would taste better than cold brew, but that's also an opinion. But the ritual is what. Wakes me up in the morning. It's what, like, makes me look forward to my day. Oh, I get to make coffee tomorrow, you know, and I, I think that there's something in that. I just like, I get these images of growing up, riding around with my dad and his work truck and just like seeing the big Stanley thermos, you know, holds like nearly two liters of hot coffee sitting in a seat. And just, that was like my growing up with coffee. I guess that was part of the ritual. It was like, Drive into work to the construction site and like having this thermos of coffee. And the first thing you do when you step onto the job site is not check in with your employees, but pour yourself a cup of coffee and stand there and lean on your truck and just kind of survey the land, you know, like moment for yourself. It's the moments it's, you know, like, I feel like all the Folgers advertising in the eighties captured exactly the essence of all the stuff we're pointing towards now in coffee.
lucia:I think that's really fair. I, and I also feel kind of bummed when people, like, say they love coffee because they like drinking it, but they don't make their own coffee. They just, like, sort of buy it. I'm like, oh, you're missing out. Like, making coffee is so
will:fun. Yeah, but then, like, how many coffee makers does it take to crash a cafe industry? That's hard to figure out. Maybe that's, that's another reckoning for another
lucia:time. Fair enough. Yeah. Another thing I wanted to, actually, really thank you for, because you have helped me open up, unlock this part of, of terroir, where I hate that word for coffee, in terms of, I don't like the baggage that it brings. Yep. I've been very Maybe not vocal enough, but I'm somewhat vocal about how I don't think that this is what we should be borrowing from the wine industry. I think it does more harm than good. For sure. But I didn't have a good replacement until you. And the word, the thing that we're looking for is provenance. Provenance is the thing that we need to be talking about. It matters where things come from, but terroir is not the way to capture that.
will:Exactly. There was a point in my roasting career early on. I told, I think maybe Oliver would remember this. I was working for Olympia coffee and I told him, I want to destroy this concept of terroir, terroir, terroir, because I've tasted enough coffees from Columbia specifically that have so much diversity and variety of flavor that this concept of locking a single country into a single flavor profile is like. limiting and I guess I would have said wrong. And I'm just like, what if we can get profiles like we experienced from Yirgachev from a basic place? Like, I don't know, Brazil, you know? And like, what, why is Brazil basic? Like, is it their processing methods? Is it their cultivation methods? Or are they locked into the flavor of their soil? And I don't think the soil is the only thing at play there. Right? If you think about, like, mechanical harvesting, and separating cherry instead of selective harvesting, then you can start to get an idea of why the coffee is the way it is from there. And same with Vietnam. Like, the reputation for low quality is well earned. There was a race to the bottom, and they were trying to increase volume. And strip picking was the norm. And so, that's where the reputation came from. You know, but reputations don't have to stick, either.
lucia:So, yeah. And I think that's what people don't realize when we use a word terroir, is that it, it sounds so romantic, and it sounds like, the, the intention is, I want to appreciate where this came from, I'm appreciating the land, it's like I'm doing something positive. For sure. But it's that lack of Education or lack of understanding that along with that is what you said the locking in is like you can't get that terroir without locking in and stifling innovation stifling any kind of change or any opportunity,
will:right? Yeah, I mean, I think it's becoming a little bit more fashionable or popular now to talk about limiting beliefs, you know, when it comes to mental health. I think that we can. Expand that into industries, you know, we have a lot of limiting beliefs about what certain countries are capable of. And just last year I tasted an Indonesian coffee that I swore was like a Yirgacheffe washed processed coffee. That, I mean, I, it's like somebody is cheating here. This is an Ethiopian coffee for sure. And then, of course, like I was, I'm gladly, I was wrong about that.
lucia:Yeah, and I think that there's also Something that I really appreciate about the information that you put out there is that you also care about words and you think that vocabulary is really important. And because these words kind of like shape our thinking. And so I think it's important to be precise. And there are better words to use. So I think that's... For sure. I mean, I'm just, I was just so like relieved. Like I remember this like... Very palpable feeling of relief when I, when you said provenance, and I was like, that's it because we want to care about where things come from. We want to have that pride. We don't want to
will:erase the history of the object. Yeah.
lucia:It's exciting when you have this kind of like thread back to where this coffee came from. But the way that we've been doing it, and it's just very clumsy, you know, like it's a very
will:immature, I mean, it's an immature industry as far as a specialty. I mean, the term didn't come out, come about until like the mid seventies. And so, you know, like wine has hundreds of years underneath it, you know, like it's, we're only borrowing from it because it's established and doing well for itself. I think, you know, we're in that painful and frustratingly slow moving period of change in this industry. And of course, humans only have one lifetime, so we're really impatient about it. You know, we want it to change and change now and give us the answers. And of course, that's a natural sort of predisposition. But at the same time, we have to back away and realize, Oh, for this one change in the industry like the Castillo variety in Colombia that we so easily cast off and dispel. That took like 30, 50 years of development before we even tasted one cup of it. And so just to think on those timelines is frustrating for people like us. You know, and I accept that. Human behavior is what it is. But at the same time, we can also push back at it a little bit. Tell people to take a chill pill. Be reasonable. Be reasonable. That's going to be on my tombstone.
lucia:So is there anything, I mean, I have so many other things that I want to ask you about, so we'll definitely do another part when I'm like more together or prepared, but is there anything that you wanted to talk about specifically? Anything you wanted to share on this? Like intro casual,
will:man, I'm just like, I'm so stoked that I don't know. I just kind of want to sing the praises of how open and awesome this industry is because we can kind of. look over the fence at each other online and be like, Oh yeah, there's, there's somebody who I want to pay attention to. And then we meet in person and then we hit it off. And then it's like, it's super rad that that experience has never happened to me in any other kind of format or industry wherever I was working before. I think there's something special about the coffee industry.
lucia:Well, and I think it also lends itself well to both of our types of Like how we make a living, that it isn't just a job, like for both of us, it is so enmeshed in like our life and our personality, like what we do. So it's hard to listen to a podcast episode and not know who I am as a person. Right, right. Exactly. It's not a surprise.
will:Yeah. We're not looking for work life separation, we're looking for balance and work and life can be the same thing, but as long as it's balanced. And
lucia:even like the work that you put into writing your blog posts, it's, it's so much of your thoughtfulness distilled that you, you don't, you don't read that and come away not knowing who you are. Yeah. At least for me, it wasn't like I, the first one I read, I was like, we're already friends, you know? And then we've, we've spent this entire week hanging out you know, sharing meals and just doing all kinds
will:of. Talking so much not coffee, which I love, too.
lucia:So much not coffee. Well, you know, I actually did that on purpose because I really wanted to save our coffee conversation for here. Oh, yeah. Cause I'm like, he's gonna say something awesome and I'm not gonna be able to record it.
will:So, I so I would not be able to bring it back. I'm very much an in the moment content creator. And that's why I need someone like Kel to be there to capture it and help me remember things.
lucia:So it was really nice to spend this week just, like, not talking coffee.
will:It's been great. I wish we could, like, hang out all the time, because it's, like I said, instant friends is a cool feeling. I don't get it super often. Yeah,
lucia:Nick was like, how can we get them to move to Guatemala, and you're like, how do you get them to move to Vietnam?
will:I think we just need some sort of exchange program. We'll come up with it. We need a wormhole. Or we need one of the listeners who's got access to some sort of organization.
lucia:A private jet? Does anyone have a private jet?
will:We need a private jumbo jet. What I want to do is a reality show where we bring a group of Guatemala's best pickers here to Vietnam and then we team them up with local pickers and have some sort of competition. About who can do the highest quality cherry picking and then we do the same thing in Guatemala with Actually,
lucia:before we move on and I know that was a joke But do you have some insight into kind of the labor force like you do work with but you're not a producer yourself But you do work with a lot of them.
will:Yeah, I work with produce I I mean them I think even I want to take away that that last sentence Yes, I work with some producers, but I talk with a lot of producers and I think that that's more important than working with a few. And labor is a huge issue for them. I mean, like everywhere in the coffee world, like it's an aging farming population that we're starting to see some younger folks get interested in farming, but we also know young people are a little fickle and they get interested in something for a couple of years and they're off to something else. And you know, coffee farming is a 10 year minimum investment. If you just want to see one thing happen. So I'm really hoping that that becomes, you know, like a little more stabilized. But the labor costs in Southeast Asia, I think are significantly higher than a lot of places. And so that's why you'll see many people are familiar with the cost of Sumatran coffees just being much higher than a comparable coffee from somewhere else. Brazilian coffees are very cheap compared to other coffees. And so I think that, you know, the, the local labor costs have a lot to do with it. Brazilians in this Brazil's industry is highly mechanized, and so they can keep those costs down through volume. But in Vietnam, the standard of living and incomes are rising rapidly, and the competition for this labor is getting pretty fierce, especially in a place like Da Lat, for example. There's a lot of cut fresh flowers industry working there and they pay nearly double for very basic labor that a coffee farmer can pay a picker. And so now we're starting to find this labor crunch is, is happening here. So that's like, I think that's a major, a major challenge and a consideration to make when we're kind of balking at a coffee because of its price. We have to think about those other things as well.
lucia:So do you think that's where some of the, I mean, in a scenario like that, it's either coffee is going to start disappearing because it's not the best crop that has the most return? Or does any part of you want to save coffee? Or do you feel like, hey, if there's something better to grow, grow
will:that? Well, I'd say it changes whether we're talking on the individual level or on the industry wide level. Industry wide. I mean, I think we need a wake up call, but I also want to save this industry because I love it so much. But individually, when it comes to a farmer having to make a decision, it's totally theirs to make. Like, I can't, I, I don't even want to be seen having any influence in that decision. Like, do what's best for you. If you can make a hundred years worth of income by selling your plot of land, sell it. Like, you can start another garden somewhere else. You know, like. Or if you really love your land, hang onto it, be stubborn, right? But, like, that's not a decision I can have any influence in whatsoever. I don't have any business with that. So, all I can do is just kind of help and encourage people, but I need to meet them where they're at. I need to figure out, like, what their goals and their values are, and what they really want to accomplish with what they're doing in coffee. And if that just means getting out of coffee altogether, then I want to help them do that, you know, as, as much as that kind of makes me a little sad, at the same time I have to like face the reality that coffee might just be a luxury item in the future.
lucia:It's interesting that that's been kind of a refrain in some of the more recent episodes is this idea of You know, the escape velocity or trying to grow something else or just reducing for producers and reducing how much coffee they're growing and diversifying into just other.
will:I will say like the, the light at the end of the tunnel or whatever, the treasure chest, the treasure chest at the end of the rainbow is agroforestry. I think that if I can say one thing will help save this industry, it's that. Not organic, not. Whatever else we can come up with, like agroforestry, some sort of mixed use of the land, produce less volume, but have a healthier, more long term kind of approach to coffee farming. I think that that is where the hope in the future is, is if we can get people to reforest their land just a little bit, enough to kind of interplant things, diversify, grow other crops. But keep the coffee trees that that would be the advice I would give if I felt it was my place to give that advice
lucia:I I totally agree. I think that a lot of the times most of the conversations I'm having are Focused on like saving coffee in a lot of different ways whether we're talking about mechanization or we're talking about Different prices and I don't feel like often enough. We're talking about that Agroforestry and yeah going back to Just helping, helping the
will:growth. Yeah, I think monoculture, the, the, the, the age of monoculture is dying. It is actually killing, but it's dying too. And we need to think in, more in those terms in general. Like the way we grow corn and soybeans and rice, all of that. The whole thing needs to go back to diversity.
lucia:Yeah, I totally agree. You can wrap it up here. Yeah.
will:I feel like we can just keep talking all day about this stuff. I
lucia:know! And we will! Because I have way more questions for another time. I need to like, put them together. It's just been...
will:Yeah, and maybe I'll synthesize a few more thoughts and experiences for that. Yeah! Yeah.
lucia:Awesome. Great. Thanks Will.
will:Thank you. It's been great.
Well, once again, before I end this episode, I want to share my relief at finally having a better word. Something to replace terroir and origin. Origin is problematic because coffee is a colonial crop. Coffee is not original to Guatemala, or Colombia, or Brazil, or Kenya, or Hawaii, or Thailand. And terroir is a problematic word, because it carries within it a dark side, an unintended consequence of locking in a certain profile of stifling innovation and creativity in an industry all about pioneering and charting new territory. Terroir makes sense for tea in China and wine in France. But not for coffee anywhere outside of Ethiopia. But provenance, provenance is able to capture what the other two words cannot. Provenance is defined as a record of ownership of a work of art used as a guide to authenticity or quality. And this is exactly what we are trying to capture about coffee. This is what makes it feel special. This is the thing that we search for and incorrectly want to call terroir or origin. The record of ownership, the guide to quality. I think this is also what is attempted when we use words like sustainability or traceability. But those words have been so abused that they have lost most of their meaning and power. When I see something labeled as sustainable, I can't help but roll my eyes and look away. Provenance, the record of ownership of coffee, acknowledges the chain. The farmer was the owner, and then the producer was the owner, and the roaster is also an owner. The passing along of a coffee, how it got from point A to point B, that journey tells us a lot about quality. And I argue that it tells us much more than some bad theories on soil. Like the mineral content on some volcanic soils or the average annual rainfall don't tell you as much about the quality and ethics of a coffee as the chain of ownership does. So now that we have this new word in our vocabulary, I hope that we can begin to transition from, This old model that we've had because I get it that was the only thing that was there It was what we could work with thanks to will we have a much more thoughtful and More importantly a more accurate word to describe the thing that we're trying to point to Thanks to Will for, coming up with this concept. I'm so grateful to have it and thanks to both him and Kel for being excellent hosts and making our time in Vietnam so wonderful, so magical. And thanks to the patrons who make it possible for me to make new episodes. If you want to join our coffee community and join the Office Hours Live to ask me a question or connect with other awesome listeners, go to patreon. com slash making coffee. If you see coffee in a different way after listening today, consider joining Patreon and helping me make more episodes. If you enjoy listening and get value out of our time together, please share with a friend who loves coffee or wine. And if you want to be notified when the next episode is coming out, consider subscribing to my free newsletter at lucia. coffee. Lucia is L U X I A. Thanks for listening, and remember, life's too short to drink bad coffee.