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Mindspeak: Holistic Mental Health with Holly Higgins
Mindspeak: Holistic Mental Health with Holly Higgins
009: Dr. Nicole LePera, The Holistic Psychologist, on the Food-Mood Connection and the Holidays
Dr. Nicole LePera — known and loved as The Holistic Psychologist — joins us to discuss the power of the food-mood connection, navigating the stress of the holidays, and more. In this episode, you'll discover:
- How Dr. Nicole finally moved past lifelong anxiety
- Why she shifted from a traditional psychotherapy practice to an educational platform that promotes self-healing
- The three things that can derail even the best, most insightful therapy session
- Why we have to consider the body when we are seeking to improve mental health
- The power of the food-mood connection, and using nutrition for mental wellness
- What drives emotional eating, as well as straightforward tools to improve your relationship with food
- Why the holidays are particularly challenging for some people
- Practical ways to set healthy boundaries with family members
For the complete show notes, visit www.mindspeakpodcast.com/9
Download your food-mood guide here.
Download your self-sabotage audio and ebook bundle at: www.mindspeakpodcast.com/sabotage
Follow me on Instagram @hollyfisherhiggins
Follow Dr. Nicole on Instagram @the.holistic.psychologist
Music: Joseph McDade, "On the Verge"
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Speaker 2:This is mind speak. Everything you thought you knew about health is about to be turned on its head. I'm Holly Higgins, a nutritional therapy practitioner and I'm here to show you how your mind can heal your body, your body can heal your mind and no matter what you've been told, you are in the driver's seat of your life. Let's go. Just a quick heads up. There's a couple parts of this episode where the audio
Speaker 3:quality gets a little dicey, but I could not bring myself to cut one second from this incredible interview, so just hang with us. I promise you will not regret it. Let's go to the show. Welcome to the show. Today we are talking about the food, mood connection, the holidays and lots of other juicy things. I am so, so excited to announce today's very special guest. We have dr Nicole a para, AKA the holistic psychologist. I know a lot of my audience, you guys know and love Nicole, and if you don't happen to be familiar with her work, it is my honor to introduce you to dr Nicole. You are going to be hooked. You will not be able to get enough. So, dr Nicole, welcome to the show today.
Speaker 1:Thank you so, so much for having me, Holly and seriously for all of your support along the way and passing along my message to all of your people to speak to the point that some may know me and now for introducing me to the rest. It's beyond an honor and I'm excited selfishly on a personal level to finally in real time get the chat with you because I've been looking at your work and really inspired by it for quite some time. Ah,
Speaker 3:that means a lot to me. Just, just all the back and forth love. It's, it's amazing. Um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you came from, the work, the direction your work is headed in now for those who might not be familiar with.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So while I call myself a holistic psychologist now, it is definitely not the path that I was always walking in. So in some ways it was, and in some ways it wasn't, but on a personal level, going as far back in time as I can remember when I was a little girl, I am someone whose life has always been punctuated with anxiety and I very much was familiar with the experience of being an anxious person, frayed of all the calamities of life that could happen to me, complete with obsessive thoughts. I even had my own version of compulsive tick like behaviors. Quite honestly, Holly, as long as I can remember that was my story. Um, also about the time, I don't know when it, when one gets asked what you want to be when you grow up for me, intuitively you would have heard me talking about wanting to be a psychologist, mainly because I was so fascinated with the mind. Um, with what makes people different than myself. The same course when I was young, this chemo a lot in my early relationships. Why are my friends doing different than I am doing and trying to understand their inner workings. And then I found the young adult section of the bookstore and I loved books my whole life and I would always gravitate toward the story ones about people and their thoughts and the way they operate in the world. So when I asked what I was going to be, it was going to be a psychologist, I felt like I am one of those people who had the gift of knowing kind of their path in life. So flash forward, I went and obtained all of the training that goes along with being a psychologist. So I want it, I want the practice, I want it. The space, the shingle where people came to my office to get better. So I took the path of a traditional a program in clinical psychology. I received a PhD. That was the way that I would get to maintain my shingle. So on a, again, all the behind the scenes level. On a personal note, I should say my story with anxiety was the same. I thought I was always going to be an anxious person. That's what I had been told, that once you're anxious, you have that chip or you don't have that chip, you know, genetically that that's what you're predispositioned or predestined to live. I thought my story would be about managing. So the way I chose to manage my own anxiety was the way many of us chose to manage our anxiety. I was in therapy and I was on medication. It was manageable. There was moments in my life where I didn't feel so manageable, but it was within a spectrum of always there. So I share that because a really big pivot happened. So flash forward in time, I had my practice. I was very thankfully able to have a pretty successful private practice pretty quickly. Uh, I was doing the work with week after week with, with clients and out of nowhere I started to have, or seemingly out of nowhere, I started to have some really scary physical symptoms. I started to faint and I'd never, I never faint it before in my life. And for those of you who have fainted, at least for me, it was quite scary. Um, it happened. It would happen a couple times out of nowhere. I started to forget words mid sentence and I, I've had that experience before and I'm very good with picking up another trail of words and talking to myself so eloquently through, uh, this happened actually in session a couple of times, but this forgetting of words felt just different structurally in my brain. Like I actually couldn't find a word to say my heart rate increase. I almost got sweaty. I had to tell the client in front of me, I'm really sorry, I just completely blanked in a way that I couldn't recover from. I started to forget names, names of people that I shouldn't forget their name. And all of that really led me to believe at this point that there was something physically wrong with me. My anxiety was still, you know, nothing was different there or nothing. I looked around, I think structurally look hugely different in my world. So clearly something is medically happening. I located it. Of course, you know, the medical calamity to occur. So as a good, as a good web MD, you know, or, or I didn't go on web MD, but I went on mine, Holly and I went and I was like, okay, what are the symptoms? What could be going on? Pretty much I wanted to die self-diagnose and find the specialists that would help me treat whatever was wrong with my brain and I was shocked at what I started to discover in this self exploration online. I was introduced to a whole new version of science that is not that genetic predeterminism that I had learned at that point, even in school and I was working with under that assumption that that was the truth. I learned about epigenetics. They learned that, okay, yeah, that's important and we all have genes and genetics were formed with, but there's a lot of things that we do each day as lifestyle and choices that come to play. I learned for the first time about the human body and that there no that, Oh yes. Okay. The brain is an organ contained in this meat suit of other organs and there's a gut and the gut is important. Why would I even have known the gut and then food and you know, so be it in my snowball of information, just expand it. And after a lot of self research and self honesty, I made a lot of changes. This was just personally now I started behind the scenes and thankfully I have a very, very supportive partner who I could not have walked this journey without who was similar, struggling in much different ways. Um, but a lot of stuff points, a lot of symptoms, also a lot of anxiety. So her and I changed our lifestyle together. And not only that I did my physical symptoms go away. So I was finally able to settle into, okay, there's nothing wrong with my brain. And I was starting to feel physically better than I had my whole life line that I felt was thirties you know, I kept telling myself, Oh, this is just what it feels like to now be in your thirties because if I'm honest, Holly, I was sharing, you know, I'm tired all the time. I have headaches, I'm boggy. Everyone else around me was feeling that way too. I was living for them and was sleeping life away was totally unmotivated. So my baseline looked like everyone else. So I didn't know that physical health and you could feel differently. So my physical symptoms went away, but notably my anxiety, this anxiety that was a backdrop was going away. And at that point I, I was convinced personally that the tools that I was now using after a lifetime of using other tools that were more limited, these tools were working. But I think that scientists and meats are to speak and say, okay well that's great Nicole, you have an an end, a sample of two. It worked for you and your partner, but how does this expand beyond that? At which time I had never really used social media in any way. I have my private accounts, my personal accounts, but I thought, okay, what could this hurt? I'll go online and I'll start to speak. Cause meanwhile reminding you, I have my practice happening. I'm still going on week after week, every, you know, meeting with my clients, doing that more supportive model of treatment. Not really talking about what's happening for me because I was taught not to talk about what's happening with me in the room anyway. Right. I wanted to have an outlet. So that's when the Instagram account got created. I went all with no expectation. A little bit of fear about what people would think about this new message. Definitely fearful of what my colleagues would think. Talking about self healing, I'm talking about this new science and these words that I've never heard. I knew they didn't hear it. I mean I assumed they didn't hear about them either cause I pretty much programs are very similar. Yeah. And within months I was just talking, sharing my truth, sharing what worked for me. Not only did the accounts start to pick up steam quickly, you know, and in the collective I think was speaking to me like we're ready. We want to hear this. We were late. We to feel like this isn't working or to get messages that what I was talking about was it was working and now I was like, okay, this feels a bit more universal now. This changing my diet and changing my lifestyle in these ways and talking about conscious breathing and consciousness is resonating and is working for people outside of my life and my relationship. And then I had the really hard, and obviously this is a very long expanded months upon months of evolution into this, because then the next step was I got really honest with myself and about the future of my work. And I really realized that I couldn't just continue to go into that office and do that supportive talk therapy, even though I do feel like it's valuable for people on their journey to have that space. I just knew that I was working out of alignment if I wasn't utilizing the rest of these tools. And then I made the decision to take the hard pivot in a sense and really evolve the work that I was doing professionally as well too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you're on Instagram at the dot. Holistic dot. Psychologist and you're, I mean, talk about rapid expansion. I think you're at 1.3 million followers right now. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mind blowing. And like I say, I, I, I take that as a Testament to the, the collective and where they're at. I mean, I never would've imagined those numbers. It still blows my mind, even think about. Um, but I think it's just people that are ready.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think it's time and I think it's the collective consciousness coming together and saying, you know, it's time for this paradigm shift. It's time for these pivots. Like we're, we're all ready to be self healers and to embrace this work head on. So it has just been so inspiring watching you just because it gives me so much hope for just holistic approaches as a whole. And I think you're validating other holistic practitioners and other self healers in such a massive way. I think for so long, you know, holistic practices were looked at, looked at as like, Oh, that's a cute little thing you can do on the side in addition to your mainstream treatment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I could not agree more. And I actually had had heard somewhat of a similar message from my family when I started to share this new vision and I don't fault them. They're not very connected with the online world and what that even means aside from the whole idea of holistic. Um, there's somewhat connected with that. But actually a statement that I heard back was an overwhelming, I don't know if people are actually ready for that or if they would be that interested. And I agree with you and I understand it through the lens of I think a lot of the archaic mindsets around, you know, helper guru and student or doctor and patient and this idea that someone else treats and fixes us. I at least see those as intergenerationally passed down. And there has been previous generations where that was the predominant belief. But now I think things are shifting and people are empowering themselves. So the choices of they actually get to meet in their daily lives that can be incredibly impactful that they do know. And I think that that's a big part of, of the willingness to, to hear those messages and from a fear based entry where I didn't know what my peers would think. It's been nothing but overwhelming support people in this field of people who've similarly want to update their practice. And then people in other fields, it just seeing other people like you and how they're using Instagram and sharing a same message or it seemed component of my message and equally having people interested in it. So I say that because all of these have been support to me along the way to keep showing up and sharing my message.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And it's, it's a message that we're all just so, so ready for an ICS really shifting from that movement of guru and I'm going to tell you what to do and I'm going to fix you. And you're the poor little powerless victim to like healing through community and healing, healing by walking beside a teacher. Not that the teacher is way out ahead in front of you and they are paving the path for you, but that they're just kind of pointing a flashlight and maybe holding your hand a little bit along the way as a friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I have always, and I will always not only speak honestly about, I'm still healing. I saw a long time ago actually settling into the reality, Holly, that there is no done. There is no end point. That utopian hammock has I call it, that I desperately thought was my done plays where I would just throw with my wit and my hair and the wind throwing my hippy P signs off. It's not that this life is about showing up for life, you know, day in and day out. Um, and I think that that's been a big, a big part of it.
Speaker 3:Uh, and I think that real is, I've had that same realization. I think it can be scary too. Or we can also flip it into like what an exciting gift that I get to keep learning and growing and evolving.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love that. That mindset shift and what is the one thing about one of the many, many States or quotes about impermanence and embracing that change is the only, you know, any cliche way we could say it changes. The only constant things like that. I joke because in terms of a partner, I could not have picked more opposite partner and so as a human and many, many, many, many, many ways, which has been a gift in my evolution and also a great challenge. But one of the ways that she and I are credibly different, right? Just kind of intuitively at our resting state. Maybe it's an adaptation, quite honestly now that I think about it, say that she can adapt. She's very much, we were talking about that this morning based on her very unpredictable childhood, the gift amongst them, very real deep rooted trauma that she has endured as a result of that unpredictability in it. Obviously negative way. The gift of it is adaptability. I mean, we're joking and I can say, I said she could wake up in and you know, Guatemala tomorrow morning and she's like, Oh, is it Tuesday? You know, I could not, I change. And the impermanence of things for me is, isn't a part of my evolving journey or my healing journey that I still embrace. So I share that. I speak directly about it. You follow me on Instagram, you see that I'm doing the same things that I'm telling you to do. I've been journaling every morning and I'll show all of my morning routine cause you'd be there for a while watching it. And I tell you the days when it was hard as hell for me to make those choices. So I think that's a part of it is just being honest that, you know, even those of us who quote unquote historically made it been viewed as having the answers. We're still just humans healing in the same way. And that is
Speaker 3:so refreshing because I think in, in the old school model, you know, especially in a clinical mental health setting where you're not really allowed to talk about yourself or your own healing, the client or the patient then makes the assumption that like, well they're perfect and they have everything figured out. But if you can share honestly like, Hey, I'm still doing the work too, like that makes such, that makes the experience for the patient like so much easier. And and just to know that like perfection isn't the goal. Like you're always working through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree in a lot of us are given that direct teaching not to share, not to disclose, not to be the human in the room. That never sat comfortably with me. I would always say that even though I was instructed not to, I always inserted some of my humanity in the rooms. It just didn't feel so comfortable not to be, I mean I wouldn't talk as openly as I, but you know, we are given a lot of us in the mental wellness field are given that message directly not to do that. Some of it comes, I think more personally around, I'm going to use the word insecurity, but around some feeling that if I admit that I struggle, my concern being what will my patient or client think, will they not hold me in regard, am I exposing this deep, dark, shameful secret that I don't have it all together that will cause them to question why the hell they're working with me? You know, that might come from a more personalized, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy base narrative that a lot of us have that can be triggered in our professional world, especially because even the way it's set up in most therapy, at least I am the person who come to for answers. That's just not, I facilitate you finding the answers and I do. I do agree that a lot of us are directly or indirectly urged to not show up, just to play that function in the room. And it can be a real big disservice. And part of my challenge, and if I'm off, if I'm honest, as I started to go online and speak honestly, it was hard because I was so used to filtering. This is much more deep rooted for me in terms of my family system and my earliest models of relationships. I was what I call externally focused worrying about how everyone else would experience me and wanting to be variance in the most palpable, positive way possible. Then being authentic and honest. So for me that was a big challenge of my own healing. How can I show up and speak my truth without worrying as much or without maybe I still worry about how that truthful sit with the listener, but I don't have to withhold the truth like I was doing. Yeah,
Speaker 3:absolutely. And I, and I understand this whole, don't share your story and the room thing from, from a a vantage point of like you don't want to Bogart the conversation like you're there for the client. But at the same point, I really believe, and it's been my own experience in practice, that the people who come to us, they inevitably have similarities with us and that's why they're drawn to us. And we might be, you know, we're walking the path with them, but we might be a few few steps further along in our journey or may have experienced something that would be really helpful to them. And if we can share our story and say, Oh my gosh, I totally feel you. Because I went through a similar thing a couple of years ago and here to some of the core lessons that I learned like that can provide so much healing, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't, I don't disagree at all. You know, the, the living the same experience even it's not the same. You could hear a reframe or something that I do think we become, I always say, make the statement, Holly, you become worse. Just so subjective experience in all ways. We're living it, we're filtering it through all of the mental filters that we've developed at a very, you know, we're just being us. So it really does sometimes that's why having a supportive helper relationship, whether it's a therapist or some other practitioner, a friend even, is helpful because inherently they're not you. I mean, I used to make a joke when I would have my console calls with, you know, interested individual clients when I was still doing that work. I'm not you, so I am automatically more objective. I can see you a bit clearer so I can offer something that should you choose to listen and step outside of yourself might be a value. And if that's something that was I lived in terms of my own journey, that could be the thing that just helps you be a bit more objective about yourself to break out of those older patterns.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that so much, Nicole. One of the things I really want to dive into today is the food mood connection. And I know you touched a little bit about this, um, in, in your intro talking about all these tools for self healing and, and I know nutrition was one of them for you. Um, and I really wanna dive into that today because that you and I are similar in that regard. So I used to be diagnosed with 10 different mood disorders. I was on 10 different medications like you, I was told the best you're going to be able to do is just manage this because this is genetic, this is your brain chemistry and we're just going to get you through life a little bit more comfortably. But you're probably always going to struggle with this and
Speaker 1:such a whole message. I'd say Holly, I don't know if it felt that way to you, but Oh
Speaker 3:well I'll tell you at first, like when I first got all these diagnoses, it felt really empowering because I was like finally somebody in a white coat with prestigious degrees has validated my[inaudible]
Speaker 1:Hey, yeah, I agree. And so while I always talk about my hesitancy around diagnosises and labels, I don't disagree. It can relieve the uncertainty and the discomfort that comes and the lack of validation that many of us do get. Not knowing or having the name for what. So I couldn't agree, agree more with with you that it can be initially incredibly helpful.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So initially it was incredibly validating. It's like my simp like I'm not the only one experiencing these symptoms. There's a name for them and now this person is going to be able to help me and all my gosh, thank goodness because I mean I had severe depression. I was laying in bed all day. I was, I was so anxious. I couldn't even go to the store. I had like intense, you know, I was diagnosed with a Gore phobia was just one of the things I was diagnosed with. And so initially there was so much hope, but then I got into treatment with talk therapy and medication and you know, I emotionally flat-lined. I numbed out, um, talk therapy was helpful for a little while till it didn't feel helpful anymore. I felt like I was just spinning in circles with my trauma and kind of rehashing it week after week and long story short, after years of feeling like these tools that have only gotten me so far and weren't getting, getting me any farther, I inadvertently discovered the power of nutrition. And it was because I had gained all this weight on psych meds and I was just trying to lose weight. Um, so I, I came across essentially like an anti inflammatory paleo style elimination diet. I was just trying to lose weight and by the end of 30 days I was like, Whoa, we're the first time in years, I feel legitimately happy. And so I went down this rabbit hole of studying the food, mood connection, um, eventually went back to school for nutrition. And now that's one of the things that I help people with in my practice is in well for mental health. And um, yeah. And then I was, so I went from being validated by my diagnoses to being really angry that nobody had ever shared these tools with me. Like, Hey, if you change your diet, your mood is going to improve by like 70%.
Speaker 1:[inaudible] yeah, it can be really angering Holly. But the way I understand that, yes, completely valid anger. My, I think the reality though is, and a lot of the people, at least again, the professionals even who are district, you know, disseminating the advice, whatever it might be that does not include nutrition, aren't actually knowledgeable. I mean, from what I know at the few doctors I know, one of whom was a psychotic psychiatrist that I used to treat, never once are they given any nutritional awareness course. So I do believe some of it is just ignorance, lack of education. People are not going to say that to you because they're not aware of that themselves. Um, and I agree, but it can be extremely infuriating and validating in a lot of ways. And it was the foundation for me as well, upon which I believe all other change became possible. Because as far as I see it now, that's why I was surprised to think that, Oh, I should consider the human body. When I'm talking about a mind, I had to really break it down. The mind is a brain. It's in a body, right? So, Oh, okay. This might be why I need to worry about the bottom half of me. But those imbalances that I think a lot of us are struggling or suffering with the diets that we're eating, the nutrition that we're eating or that we're not eating, or the lifestyle choices that we're making are living in a body that's so unbalanced that no amount of mental wellness, you know, or mental practices, you know, the meditations. Yes, that's important. It's part of it. Yes, breathwork important part of it that helps also the body regulate. But without those physiological imbalances being treated and rebalanced, we're going to continue to live those symptoms. And I think that played a big role like you in my own healing as well.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And just, just to jump back to the anger really quick. It's not that I was mad at, you know, my particular therapist or psychiatrist or doctor, I was just, I had all this anger that this wasn't part of our systemic approach. Like I was angry at the system. My individual practitioners. Absolutely,
Speaker 1:and I agree with you. It's a really, it's a really broken, for the most neutral way to put it system in a lot of ways. Yeah. And I think, again, I think people are waking up to its brokenness without even going into a conversation about why it got broken or whether or not it'll get fixed. I remain in power that there's people, humans, like yourself and myself and many others at this point that are learning the full, the fuller truth and are then therefore sharing it. So I will all, you know, if I'm ever asked, you know, are you going to go, go, go, go, but that with school and change this, my answer is always going to say no, that's not how I envision or that's not in alignment with how I'm going to spend the, you know, I'm grateful for the people who might take greater issue with systems. I do believe that they are needed. That's not my journey. My journey is going to continue to empower the humanity, you know, level of things. Um, because I just, you know, I don't know when school systems are going to change. Um, and it's just not how I'm choosing to invest my energy. Do I hope they change yet? Do I plan to offer a version of a training or education in case they don't change? Hell yeah. So that people can go to a place and understand in a more comprehensive way tools that I feel are necessary. But am I going to fight the change in terms of the political level? Probably not.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was asked a similar question on a, I was interviewed last week and the guy asked me, you know, tell me how you're fighting the Western medical conventional system. And I said, actually, I'm not fighting because I don't even need to fight and I don't live in the energy of fight. I just opened my door for the people who are ready for something else. And like there's a line out that door because people are ready. Yeah. I don't even need, I don't even need to fight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a, that's a promise I made to myself. Holly, you go on, you get through all the discomfort, Nicole, of being vulnerable and speaking this new truth and all of the fear and just rest assured that I knew going on that my message would not be for everyone. I know it still won't be for everyone. It's not my intention to send out a message that is for everyone. Because again, I know that that's out of alignment for me. So I'm gonna speak my truth and I rest short knowing that the people I would never have imagined it was a million 0.3 of those people. But to sit speak to you, I opened my door and then the people who are attracted to my truths are there. Exactly.
Speaker 3:Clay. Exactly. And bouncing back to what you said about, um, I'm going to pull out a Dr. Kelly Brogan quote real quick. We can't, we can't heal our brains without healing the bodies in which they reside. Um, we have to have that physiological stabilization of balanced blood sugar, calm inflammation, a healthy gut because there's that gut brain connection. We have to have our physical organisms stabilized in order to do many of us in order to do the work. You know, the heavy work of mental wellness, of working through relationships and thought patterns and boundaries and positive self talk. And for me, you know, I was in therapy trying to do some of this work and it wasn't until I achieved that baseline stabilization with my body that I was even stable enough to do some of the mental work. Was that true for you too?
Speaker 1:100% and I feel like that's true for a lot us. For a couple reasons. I could come into my just type of dive. I come into my practitioner, my therapist, whoever it is. I have a great insightful session. Maybe I even have a game plan for what I want to see change in my life. Maybe it has to do with my lifestyle choices. Maybe it doesn't, maybe has to do with how I show up in relations. Whatever it is, couple of things happen when I leave that door. I go continue to make lifestyle choices. I keep meat imbalanced, which means I'm still living the same symptoms regardless of that insightful session, right? If I don't, if I'm not aware, put it this way, that I have to change those body-based areas, I don't change them. Why would I think too, right? So living the anxiety, the brain fog, the depression, you know, all that which comes with those physiologic or can be contributed to by those physiological imbalances. So again, two comes back and I still get a report. Nothing changed. Another thing that happens, and this is again, something that isn't, I'm going to actually break it down to three. Another thing is those of us who experienced trauma, there's a lot of us, not just the big T, I expand that there's a lot of little T traumas, unmet needs of childhood wounds that a lot of us are living. The reason we're interested in trauma and I'm interested in expanding that definition is trauma results in a dysregulated nervous system. So again, incredibly insightful session, right? I want to change whatever my overreaction in these areas of my life. I still go out and I live that overreaction. I'm really generalizing with an overreaction. I'm not trying to minimize or invalidate the effects of trauma in any way I've lived so, so I totally same idea because of why I didn't address my nervous system. My nervous system is still so dysregulated and so hypervigilant that I'm in perpetuity waiting for the next shoe to drop and that little shoe drops every moment of my day when the toothpaste is on the counter. When someone cuts me out at work and I'm constantly reactive. I don't have choice in those moments. My nervous system, a third category that I think happens incredibly insightful session. I map out all of the ways I want to do different. I go out and I still repeat those patterns. Why? Because those patterns are subconscious, let alone a little known area of the brain. That again was just so conveniently left out of any of my training. Wow. The most impactful in my opinion, area of the brain. Cause using the computer analogy that I think a lot of us are familiar with Liz, all the programs that have been imprinted or internalized by us, most of it starting at a very young age that don't work for us. So even I can have a great conversation with a client who totally understands it. They want to start showing up differently, say in their primary relationship and this is how they're going to show up differently. So the next time my partner says this, I'm going to do this and it's great break. I go out, you know, and I'm on autopilot that day. It's not going to happen. Best laid plans. When I go unconscious, when I go on unconscious and I let my subconscious on the show, what it's going to do is what it always does. When your partner does that thing or says that thing, it's going to have that same reaction it's always had. So that's the third category and why I talk endlessly about consciousness. Because insight in that beautiful session where I was so insightful happens when I'm in my conscious part of my mind. I can see all the connections, I can even plan for what I want to do to change. Unless I maintain that consciousness, I'm not showing up differently in that really integral moment where I have to choose a new choice to respond to my partner. I'm showing up in the same way that I am. So those I think are the three main areas why one moment in time, even one great insight that we're having, if we're not addressing the body and our nervous system, we're limited in the healing and the change that we can give to ourself and to offer modeling to others.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. So just to recap those really quick because man, you just laid out so much goodness there. So there's um, there's the body. So you know, dealing with these underlying physical, physiological imbalances that, you know, no amount of talk therapy is going to solve. There's the nervous system and you talked about the other shoe dropping, I call it shoe dropper syndrome, where we're constantly waiting for that bad thing to happen to us and we can't even enjoy the good times cause we're on,
Speaker 1:Oh, when's the next terrible thing going to happen to me because our nervous system is haywire.
Speaker 3:Um, and we could, we could do a whole other episode on Alma and what is trauma because I see so many people who have trauma but they, they don't feel like they have permission to call it trauma because it wasn't quote unquote bad enough what happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. I lived in that and it can be incredibly confusing. I think for those of us who when we look back and we don't see the big glaring things that we know cause issues where we wonder that just for a lot of us, I put this way, strengthens a deep belief of unbroken. Exactly right. Oh, I must be broken then because nothing really external. Cataclysmic is checking the boxes. That would explain why I'm not well and I do. A lot of us have that. What is it? Waiting for the shoe to drop. I love that shoe drop her syndrome. We also, and I want to expand that because part of what happens when we are in fight or flight, and I share this often because I think a lot of us have this experience and similarly believe us that were damaged. As humans we are gifted with emotions. We have a raw, a wide range. I want to say there are six or seven core emotional feelings, positive and negative. They span that we have as humans we need them evolutionarily to keep us safe. They actually contain information. What starts to happen for some of us is we become, when we live in fight or flight with that overactive nervous system because either an acute or a consistent chronic trauma is we actually restrict our emotion, our perception and our emotions become so restricted. The experience of that literally is when we are in survival mode, I break everything down a lot to evolution because I think it can really be helpful. Yeah. I know that none of this isn't logically mapping onto the case, right? A fight with my partner isn't the difference between my organism living or dying, but in terms of my nervous system, it might as well be my nervous system is activated in fight or flight, so I might as well be fighting for my life in that moment, meaning my perception, strengths, all that matters is me and my survival into the next moment. I cannot care even. This is why we can be mean when we're in fight or flight mode. Some of us, I don't care. Even though logically I care very much about this person on the other end of my, you know, vicious aggression or my withdrawal. That's equally as painful. People don't care. Relationships don't, I mean people don't matter. Relationships don't matter. And our emotions shrink. And I share this because as crazy as this might seem until really I began healing Holly, I didn't know how to, I didn't practice experiencing joy. I had no room for joy or spontaneity or ease or the really the whole positive end of my emotional spectrum. Because when my perception was strong my whole life and when all I could do was survive, I don't know if you're familiar with Abraham Maslow. Oh, and that contains a lot of information you can't actualize, you can't do higher order stuff like love and joy if you're in survival. So I share that because I think a lot of us are like, why can't I would say this to clients often and they'd feel really relieved when I say I didn't know joy. I'd actually cultivate joy and practice joy and practice first, bringing my body into balance so that then I could be in joy in a new way. And that was a whole part of my healing journey was going back to that entire spectrum of human emotions that was so restricted for me for so long.
Speaker 3:Gosh, I love that because especially in American culture, we are taught that happiness should be the default and if you're not unhappy like what's wrong with you? And then the other, yeah, what you said about widening your emotional spectrum, it's only been within the past couple of years, Nicole, that like I have felt safe being happy like prior to a few years ago. And even even even more recently with some of the trauma work I've done, feeling happy, feeling joy, feeling good, did not feel safe because I was always waiting and preparing for that other shoe to drop. Yeah. Oh man. So, so those two things and then finally the subconscious mind, which I love that your work touches on that. So you can go in and have an amazing therapy session and these things can be running in the background. So touching back on that number one thing, really balancing your body through practices like good nutrition and breath work and exercise so that your brain can then be supported
Speaker 1:and sleep. Throw that in there. Cause that societaly Holly, I had to do a lot of sleep training for myself because while I always loved to sleep, I didn't have the best sleep habits and that and that. That's the interaction though, right? Cause when I'm anxious or depressed, say I sleep too much sleep too little.
Speaker 4:So all of this become so interconnected, but sleep is something that's incredibly overlooked, I think by a lot of us, but incredibly more important than we know.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, sleep is huge. Huge, huge, huge. Um, and you always referenced somebody. Is it Matthew Walker who you referenced about sleep? Yeah,
Speaker 4:I read one of his book, I'm blanking on the name of it, but he has a great book on, on sleep. That was really important for me. Uh, played a really big role. And again, this change doesn't happen overnight with sleep. A lot of us struggle in the sleep department and a lot of ways with sleep hours, work schedules affect sleep. But yeah, Matthew Walker is a great kind of sleep one Oh one really understand the importance of why sleep is important. Um, and then how to go about making changes in sleep.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. So I was wondering, Nicole, could you talk a little bit about, so you discovered this food, mood connection to started eating better for your mental wellness. Can you talk about what your relationship with food was like prior to that?
Speaker 4:I sure can. Holly, and I'm so glad you asked because as you and I talked so glibly about, Oh change food real easy. It's not so easy for a while. Lot of us have very, food is not just the nutrition. If I'm educated enough to know what's even nutrient dense and what's not, it's well beyond that. It's not logical. We have a lot of conflictual, many of us have a lot of conflictual relationships with food. So couple of my conflicts that I, I, I used some, um, for some time and some of them were more newly discovered in my feeling. Um, so for me, food, well, so food, let me think about food in general. I became, I would say in my twenties, I became aware of food as a component for health. In some ways I was miseducated what I thought was healthy and not at that time. Um, but food cross my radar. Uh, one of the relationships I was in, the person who was interested in, you know, was knowledgeable. So I kind of started to educate myself. Oh, food's important. My mother, I want to throw her in the mix too. All roads lead back to mom somehow. But my mom, cause my mom was very much into alternative assistant protocol. So like you were saying earlier, it's actually funny now that I think about it, how much it applies. It was the cute little thing that my mom would do on the side. Right. Phonically ill. So, I don't know if I've mentioned that as we spoke today, but my mother is chronically ill so she would be going to conventional doctors has the back pocket of very strong pain pills and is ordering tumeric as well from, you know, her alternative health guide. So I was aware of the holistic world in some ways, but I was much more pride in terms of food too. I was much more primed for the more conventional approach. So my relationship with food, I call it when the food was some of thing to consider though didn't really have all of the pieces that fit for the way my functions. I always used food a lot of the times. I think when we think of food you think of control. You know, it's my way to, um, food for me in my family was one of the ways that I connected with my mother. My mom is very emotionally distant. So our main conversations, because I then developed an interest in food. I like to cook, I like to pair foods together. And when I was in my teenage years. So food became the dialogue between me and mom. So on the deeper level, food for me meant connection with mom. It was the conversations we could have, the way I would propose to her when I moved away, or weekly conversations or what do you have for dinner last night, what you know, and so very much connection. Another narrative I discovered in my food behaviors was around scarcity. Scarcity mindset for me would come up in food. And I saw this predominantly, this was newer awareness in my current relationship. So what do I mean when I'm in scare today, I have this idea that things are either mine or yours, me versus you, that there's this kind of, you're having results in my lacking of something. And again, this is very deep rooted, connected to very much family dynamics. I've lived in of emotional childhood, devoid in a lot of ways and emotional connection. So what this translated to is I live with my partner of course. So we've shared the same diet. Just so happens. That's great. We share food. So what I would notice is I would become incensed when my half or what I deemed to be my half had gone missing. And she's just casually knows she is very different than the existing in the world. And she decides that other half of that brownie. Why not? Nothing was malicious about it. We never even discussed it. Put a line in the brownie, this is your, you know, it just of flowing and I was not around, he wasn't there, I would lose it. So what I came to realize is I was operating with this, that scarcity idea, there was not enough. I mean I live in Philadelphia like center city, like brownies are on my corner, beautiful noises of the city. This thing on the Phillies right out there. Anything I want or I can order it with my phone. So I wasn't logical and nor was my emotional reaction. So that was a big part of it for me. So when I made the decision, the changing my food, I got a little bit more educated on the type of foods and how often I was eating the type of foods that are damaging to speak to the point you very beautifully made formation. I was influenced that really contributed to a lot of my symptoms. Like God was chronically damaged. I because of my mother lived on antibiotics and pain medicine from a very, very young age. So I had all of that dysbiosis and you know, happening in my gut that I had a treat. So I had the, I had new information, um, to implement. But then as I implemented it logically to serve my body, then I was met with those older models of eating where to connect. Sometimes I would want to talk to my partner who I could talk to about more than food.
Speaker 3:This
Speaker 4:what's for dinner? And she's like, do you really mean what's for dinner or is there something else going on? I was like, Oh yeah, I guess I just want to connect. Or same thing with scarce age. Did you really want, you know, the other half of that Apple and Nicole or are you just feeling I don't really, I didn't really want the other. That was more about, so while yeah, we can logic and we can inform ourselves about the nutrition that works for us. Another layer of the healing journey I think for a lot of us is then changing our relationship with food, which could touch upon some of those deeper meanings that many of us have wrapped up around food and eating in general that are beyond what makes my body
Speaker 3:exactly those deeper emotional drivers. Because if it was as easy as, Oh, you know, just change your food and your mood will improve drastically. I mean, people would be eating this up like hotcakes, but there's so gluten, gluten free, a banana, collagen protein, hotcakes. But there's all these other layers, you know, not only family dynamics and scarcity mentality, but you know, a lot of clients that I've worked with and I've just seen so many examples of this is that food isn't just our nourishment. Food is often our number one emotional coping tool. So on the one hand we can have this brilliant knowledge of like food can drastically impact and improve my mood, but if I have a crappy day, I'm going to go eat five of those brownies. And do you have any, any thoughts on on how we can make those shifts? Nicole, when we know that eating well makes us feel emotionally good, but the minute we have a crappy day, we're reaching for the ice cream, we're reaching for the wrong the wine, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah. 100% Holly. And I think the first answer I always respond first. Support is being aware really simply. As far as I see it happens with two being steps. The first step is consciousness is learning your patterns, observing yourself enough to know that you are the person that goes for those brownies or that ice cream ice cream for me when I'm feeling not great, no doubt about yourself. And I say that, that might seem so, you know, maybe for listeners, I do know that, but some don't. Some of us humans aren't. Having observed the patterns in ourselves enough to have that conscious awareness that opens the door for change for me to now show up differently after that really bad day or after that argument where I would go break into those puppies or those brownies and make a new choice. So learn our patterns, observe them to help set you up for success in that second area at success in that second area though Holly does not happen overnight. I'm not just going to know and break the habit and never dive into those cookies or brownies again the next time I'm feeling sad, mad, whatever it is that I'm feeling. So the concept that I always talk about in terms of any change in this step two area is a small daily promise. First and foremost, this is highlighting the expectation that James is going to be quick, it's going to be easy or it's going to happen in one fell swoop, none of which I'm here to tell everyone I'm often the bearer of the bad news, not going to be the case changes universally hard.
Speaker 1:Damn with it. Various changes are. Well, I could, this is such a bummer. I thought, I thought you were going to fix me. I thought you had the answers.
Speaker 4:I do think it speaks that part of ourself that desperately wants that. I did. I, I share this though, Holly, in all seriousness, because I'd seen and heard and done so myself. It can be our worst critics as they say, right? But in so many ways we can take
Speaker 1:the reality that change is hard in so many unhelpful directions. As I watch myself struggle with change, I could think changes. It meant for me medically predisposition to be in this corner in this way. I did this all the time with my very different partner. She lived in her body and the way she was in the world was very different. Like I said earlier, right? I for a very long time, saw her, put her in a separate box in me. My box had a little bit of a parameter. I could walk to this end and this way and change a little bit over here. But then I was done and I was contained and I could never change enough to be in her boxed or in her circle. Right? So he was a prime example. If I made myself different and I made all the logical reasons why I was different and I, you know, so a lot of us do that when we struggle with change, we think it's not meant for us. We cannot achieve change. I do know when we put the expectation up too high to change by, did you find things starting tomorrow? That can be the difference between if I continue to do those five new things or if I bag it because one new thing is hard enough, let alone five. So I talk often about change in small areas. So if you're the person who eats when you're feeling a negative emotion, once you
Speaker 4:gained the awareness of that, is that one small promise? Sometimes I play around the concept of time, right? So meaning as soon as I'm aware, and part of it is you have to be not only practice consciousness to, to know and observe yourself, we have to cultivate that. So in that moment, I just don't know from work I'm having a bad day. I'm sitting on the couch, right? The first thought of the brownies in the cabinet pops into my mind, right? That's what's going to happen. I like brownies in there. That's exactly where I'm headed, right? I need to be online aware at that moment or I'll sign an automaton walking around and I'm, I tuned back in when I'm halfway down the ground, right? So I'm conscious, I catch my thought brownies, good, go get right, I'm feeling sad, whatever. Sometimes I suggest we play around with time. Okay, all well and good. Maybe give your set of five minute timer on your phone and in five minutes if you still really need to Sue that feeling of mad, sad, whatever it is with her, if you so choose as soon as that feeling with those brownies though, suit it, but a lot could happen in those five minutes. You could actually ride the wave of that feeling enough that you could give yourself another five minute challenge that might last the entirety of the night. He might never eat those Browns. It might not. Knowing that the brownies are in the cabinet could be your fail seat. Now you know that that feeling will go away for another night, but in those periods of time, you're at least opening the door and giving yourself the opportunity to make a new choice. And then of course, the deepest work for anyone listening who was relating to this is it developed some new souvenir tools. What are new ways that you can, the has to be replaced now with something else. Can you either a learn to tolerate feeling sad and not doing anything? You just be in, you're sad or you're mad. Do you need to do something that's totally fine? We need a tool kit. Is it a bath? Is it a walk? Is it calling a friend? What else can you do to Sue that feeling that's not that more problematic behavior.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Oh, I love, I love what you said about time and I've played around with that too. And then a question that I like to ask myself and I encourage my clients to ask themselves in that window of time is, what am I really craving? Just like you said, it wasn't really about the Apple or the brownie. That wasn't really what was going on. Oftentimes when we're craving foods, you know that like cookies and ice cream and wine that we tend to reach for when we're stressed, we're actually craving something else. We're craving connection, we're craving support, we're craving a good cry. So, so what are you craving? Ah, I love that. And so, Oh, and then also replacing yourself, soothing mechanism mechanisms with something else. We all need that tool kit. It can't just be like, Oh, let's take away your warm little snuggly blanket of comfort and like just leave you naked in the cold. Like you're not on another healthier blanket.
Speaker 4:Oh, those Holly and everyone listening. Those are so real. The feelings that we're having as humans are real and valid and they're, and if you try to will them away or deal with them without that blanket, it doesn't, you don't have to do it. And I always acknowledge this dude, we all have a tool. We've all developed the one way or maybe the two ways that we cope with our really big emotions. We had to, but unfortunately a lot of us dealt with that way of coping. Whether it's food, whether it's self harm, whether it's externalizing behaviors. I yell, I scream or I do something to someone else. I discharge out. We've all developed it at a time and a place where we were not modeled different. We weren't supported in developing other tools, so not always are the, those are however the ones that are going to be stored in that subconscious that are going to come out. That's why when we're triggered, we're honest. We do act a little childlike. Most of us at least either kick and scream and tantrum and dissociate because that's when it was formed. So I acknowledge that because I want everyone listening to understand we all have a tool. It's not two. It's about updating now and amplifying and having more options. We all can cope. We just need to develop healthier ways to cope. And I say that because I think a lot of us don't feel like we have any thing available to us. We've always had a thing. It's just not always a thing that serves us now. As an adult. And I say that because we can empower ourselves and we can, sometimes we look at those older coping skills with shame. Oh, I shouldn't react in that way and if we can honor that, that was a little part of us that was so resourceful and adaptive that survived something that maybe felt unsurvivable at the time. And that was the only way that that little person could do that. We can maybe honor, I think that part of ourself and in a new way doesn't mean we won't change. Of course we want to change and update and be a bit more mature and more emotionally resilient and not damage ourself or our relationships of course. But I offer that refreeze I know we can get really moving and really shameful about these things that were just helpful adaptations to get us through and we had no other options.
Speaker 3:Mm. I love that. Honoring that inner child part of ourselves that was always just doing the best that that they could to get through. You know, those, those coping mechanisms that we curse ourselves for. Like I have a lot of coping mechanisms that like man, my little self, she knew what was up, she knew how to cope. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose new coping mechanisms as an adult, but I can go back and think my little self for getting through all the things that she got through. Ah, I love that. So you touched a little bit on this, this idea that you talk about so much, which is so important, which is this idea of keeping small promises to yourself. And I had a really great question from a client recently. She asked, is there any way that we can make small promises fun and how can we convince our brains that these small promises actually matter when we are all obsessed with this overnight transformation, the big sexy reveal. It's so easy to say that these small habits don't matter. Is there a way to kind of like gamify this or make it fun? Nicole?
Speaker 4:Ah, I love that question. So whoever that client was, I really love that. So I build, I make three suggestions around these daily small promises that I urge us to begin to keep to ourselves. Um, I, you know, in terms of the, the fun, a small promise can be anything. I've been a cover I've been highlighting. I have a follower, um, who's done some incredible work of changing, I put her in my story last week and shin Paris three impacted a lot of people cause her personal promise. I don't know. It's not, isn't Tennessee a fun example but was a glass of water one? That was it at the start of her day. I mean, you could pick a fun small promise. The small promise can be anything because while yes, that concept of small promise helps to create habits or lights out you just, so maybe some, some areas won't be so fine, but there's a deeper psychological why for building a small or the small promise practice that I suggest. And that psychological why is most of us have supper, what I call self portrayal, which comes in a few through a few different paths. One of which is being a human. It was tried to change again because like I said, change is hard. The more you make promises to yourself that you don't, the more there, there's a little, I always kind of say it's a little person in your subconscious rolling the eyes at the next problem was like, okay, yeah, Holly, sure you're well tomorrow I'll like just like you did last time. We know how that's gonna end. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's exactly what it is. So that's one path of self. Pretrial is we don't really trust ourselves. Deeper reasons we don't trust ourselves. We were not able to be fully ourselves. So we've compromised ourself based on our environment. So before we know it, we're looking at this being that we're living and we just kind of roll our eyes at this person. We just don't trust them.
Speaker 1:So the deeper reason of the small promise practice, in addition to creating lifestyle habits, whether that'd be fun or not fun, is rebuilding that trust. So I make three suggestions around the small daily promise. Come up with whatever it might be. So for this, this client that you're sharing, be it a fun one, you know, what do you, what does that person like to do? They like to dance. Do they like to, you know, whatever it is that they, or maybe what would they like to do, keep it small each and every time that promise is kept. I suggest a three step if you will, process the first is noticing that you did it. Oh, this a lot. We need to build to rebuild that trust. We have to start to consciously observe that I did what I set. A lot of us just put that new small thing, dance a minute of dance on my to do list and I'm not even really paying attention to the fact that I checked those boxes. Also really practical habits. I think a lot of us judge our day by what we didn't do as opposed to what we did. So this is another helpful reframe and acknowledge yourself when you showed up for that fun or not fun thing. So notice it goes. That's how we build that trust enough. Noticings that little eye roller tends to be like, Oh no, wait a minute. Hold on. You do what you say. I know,
Speaker 4:okay, that to resist any and all urges because I made it a point and suggest the smallest, the promise, be small to invalidate or minimize it. We all have that critical voice that loves the lurk here and try to diminish what was only one minute or it wasn't even that fun when he did it. Don't ever do it again. Just your subconscious trying to keep you safe out of that new habit, right? You do not have to give any attention to that voice. Don't expect it not to be there if you're someone always have that voice, but don't diminish exactly what you just did for yourself so you notice and then you can remove your attention from. Don't focus on the voice that might try to tear you down. And then the third step I described as a bit more because the reality is some of these practices, one moment a day isn't going to significantly change or you're not going to get the immediate positive feedback that we're all looking for and I agree. So like your client said, the reveal at the end where I can put myself out there, we have to keep motivated to get to that end. I assure you though, Holly and whoever's listening, the small changes will accumulate. It might not be tomorrow, it might be next week or 10 days from now or two weeks from now. Make it a habit though of noticing because as you notice now, it's incredibly first and foremost as far as I've been empowering, Oh, these small promises that I did for myself are changing the way I'm showing up in the world. That's really empowering. It also keeps me walking forward to get to that end, to get to that reveal. So on day 15 when my mental resistance is there, just like it was, they went through 14 telling me why not to do it. Say 15 I have noticed why I'm doing this. I'm a bit calmer. Maybe I did get more control over my reaction. Whatever it is for you, notice, remind yourself, that's something else I attest to. You're going to have to be an active participant in creating and maintaining change. You cannot just wait to be inspired. A lot of us, we need to want to and if we don't want to, we think it's a sign that our intuition is telling us not to. That's our subconscious. So we have to create that inspiration, create that motivation and participate in reminding ourselves why we're doing that thing. Even when our subconscious is kicking and screaming and telling us not to. And that could apply to a fun, small promise or not fun, small promise, but that's how, as far as I see it, we keep ourselves walking forward.
Speaker 3:Ah, I love that. And in what you just highlighted points to the fact that it's not even necessarily about keeping this promise because it's going to get you to an end goal, but it's about keeping this promise. So do that. You can learn to trust yourself again, which is the foundation of all of it.
Speaker 4:That's what it comes down to. So whether the make the promise, I say make the promise fine, make it easier for you to keep it. Because on that deep level, that's what we're concerned about doing. Rebuilding that trust at Northwell. So then when you get to the not fund promise that might benefit your life, you feel a bit more empowered to do that. You don't have to start with the nitty gritty, hardest, hell, you know, kind of promises or changes. Sorry, I always say certain periphery area where either you can make it fine or you can get yourself to do the new thing. Don't dive into the hardest thing on the plate to do first. Create change elsewhere. Get some momentum. It's still gonna be hard as hell when you go into that really hard area. But get yourself rolling forward and feeling competent.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that. Create the momentum in an area that's a little bit easier. So when you get to the really hard thing, it's, it's still hard and it might still suck, but you, you know innately that you can do it. Gosh, I love that. Nicole, when you're on, when you're pursuing this path of holistic wellness, whether it's through meditation, whatever, it's very common to experience judgment and misunderstanding from others. I think we touched a little bit on this earlier, who might be locked in to some of the old, more conventional paradigms. They might say things like, Oh, gluten doesn't have anything to do with your mood. Just have a little, you know, especially as we're moving into the holidays and this time of year, do you have any quick thoughts you could give us about navigating misunderstanding from others who don't get your healing path? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4:And I think, well, I know backing up, you'll always hear me talk about as far as I see three core needs that all of us humans universally share, be seen, heard, and understood, meaning I believe we all come with that prepackage that desire. So sitting here and wanting to be understood and suffering, the discomfort of being misunderstood. I believe that many of us struggle with it different times and I couldn't agree with you more that as whether or not we're talking holiday period or not. Holidays are particularly challenging because we are expected in some ways are choosing in some ways to show up maybe with families or friends that you know do, can challenge us that maybe just aren't making the lifestyle choices that we will be. I know I lived this experience as I started to change my lifestyle. It either became difficult or not really appealing for me to go do the same old things that my older relationships, I didn't want to be at happy hour all the time. I wasn't interested in being, I mean I can't even stay up now past nine o'clock nighttime events where like my friends know like unless it's in the afternoon, like you're not seeing me. Like I'm, I, I cannot, I do not do night and I'm tired. I'm sleep. Right. So you got it. So it was hard. It was challenging. I think, you know, holidays like I said are, are, are really difficult in terms to have, a lot of us are exposed to going home and you know, living lifestyle choices that aren't going to be the most misunderstood. And I think the more we can get comfortable with all of the work as I see it starts within, you know, as soon as we can, if we can understand ourselves, this is aside from a conversation about boundaries and limits to practical approach of this is you might have to be honest with yourself and change or limit some of the ways you're showing up or not showing up around these holidays. Right. You know, if it's that one group of friends that you know, every time you go to that Christmas party it ends some way. You don't want it to end, you might actually have to put a limit on whether or not you go or how long you go or how you engage when you're there. So boundaries is I think very practical logistical conversation that we can have with ourselves in a very honest way. Looking around for the holiday plans or the challenging areas and if we do need to modify, not to say it's an easy, you know, not to say that as I, as I start to show up less or limit the way I'm showing up, then I might not get some feedback. I might might be uncomfortable. I might also get feedback from what I call my field bads. I might just feel guilty or bad for not whether or not my friends care anyway. I could be torturing myself in my own mind about not being there. So the practical is the boundaries that could be really helpful around sometimes limiting doesn't mean you can't see that family member or go to that experience. It might just be giving yourself a period of time that you can tolerate being there before you're going to be at risk for engaging in older, unhelpful habits that might not be the best for you. So it might not be avoiding it altogether. It might be saying, Oh, I'm going to go early and stay for an hour or I'm going to go at this time or this is what I'm going to cap it at. Um, so boundaries are a really important logistical piece I think of navigating just change, you know, and and not understanding this is where you're, even if you are, uh, holding new boundaries, not expecting everyone to understand what the hell boundaries are. I had no idea. And not until I think a lot of people are starting to talk boundaries online. I think a lot of humanity doesn't know what boundaries are. So you might be trying to enact and maintain boundaries with a group of people who have never heard of what the hell you're doing. So can't expect people. This goes into this deeper part of being misunderstood as far as I see it. A really big helpful practice is as objectively as possible. Viewing these others in your life are these people that are living lives, that are in alignment, are making lifestyle choices that are in alignment with what you want for your best self. You don't have to judge them if they're not, but don't expect them to understand different lifestyle choices if they're not living there or why someone else would, Oh, sure. If these are people that don't understand boundaries in relationships or aren't living boundaries in relationships themselves, don't expect them to understand what the hell you're doing when you're doing the new, they're going to be completely confused. Lighting be, you know, negative or diminishing of it, right? If people aren't living it or understanding it themselves, they're, they're not going to afford you or most aren't. Put this big goal for you, that understanding. So that can be really helpful and tolerating. Being misunderstood. If I can understand that you can't, in a sense, I don't have to where as personally, right. I don't see you using this. There's, there's no way you would get this. So okay, I can accept what I'm doing has a different life choice than what you're doing, not allowing your negative reaction say to impact me. And I think that's a deeper process. And a lot of us, I talk about being misunderstood a lot because whether or not it's practically, you know, I need you to understand why I'm coming or not coming in this way to generally enlight you know, we need to be able to brand ourself our understanding when others cannot and possibly be even more flexible when we're faced with others not understanding and what allows us as far as I see it to be more flexible is to have that vantage point of why they might be reacting the way they are. The emotional why that is. Gosh, I love that.
Speaker 3:I love what you said about you know, setting these boundaries, whether it's around your choices or the holidays in general. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I know for years like I would let myself visit family but I would not be somewhere unless I had what I called an escape route. Like I had to have my own car with me. Like I could go as long as I had a way to drive away if I needed to.
Speaker 4:Yes, that's a full example. I'm really happy to share that because for a lot of people you might not even use the escape route. You might knowing it's there, sometimes it's making alternate just for the holidays, alternate accommodations that you can stay. Maybe breaking a habit of having to stay with a hotel to stay at BNB might be more comfortable to give yourself space away might be just building in distance moments. If you are staying over to go have a wall, maybe you're going to go run that area. You know, small periods of distance in a challenging environment can go a long way and it's different for each of us. It's different contextually based on what we're walking into, but the clearer I think each of us get in those areas and the more I meaning I enter this knowing that if I want to experience this family engagement or friend party differently, it's up for me to do different meaning. I'm not going to, or I don't suggest you walk in there and expect this experience to be somehow different than it's ever been going to be. So I have to prepare like you did. Okay. I'm going to anticipate walking into the same challenges I've always walked, but now I know what I'm going to do different to navigate them or to tolerate them in a new way. And I think if we can have those honest conversations with ourselves and put those escapes, if you will, whatever they look like in place, we can really empower ourselves to go into different difficult situations and not be so negatively impacted, but also right in that there might be some emotional stuff that gets kicked to the surface. So giving ourselves time, even on the other end of a successful tool, whether the store that recalibrate to let our body actually process all of the stuff that might've come up on a deeper level, and if you're a little tired and emotionally wrought on the other end of these holidays, that's normal. Give yourself the time to recalibrate emotionally before you hit the races back. And I say this because I know what. Then January 1st in bodies will change. Now I have to do my whole world differently tomorrow. You know, maybe for you it's, it starts on January 7th because you need a little bit of time to decompress from challenging yourself through holidays.
Speaker 3:I love that building and the windows and the space to like decompress after an event that you know, might push your buttons a little bit. And yeah, just like you said Nicole, I didn't always use the escape route of my rental car, but knowing that that rental car was there allowed me to actually enjoy myself. So I love that. I also love what you said minute ago about having compassion for where other people are coming from because I realized the thing that made the holidays the most painful for me was my deep need to be understood and to have my family get me. It's like no, if you could just understand where I'm coming from and I wanted that so badly. But I did some thinking and I realized like I wasn't trying very hard to understand them. I just wanted to be understood. So just finding that middle space where like I didn't need them to understand me. I didn't need to fully understand them, but like finding, finding the parts of them that I could love hard and letting them love me hard and the way that they wanted to. Like that's when it got a lot easier for me.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's really beautiful and I appreciate you sharing that. We all have to remember when the conversation is about family or caregivers or those ages, some old relationships that the stuff that's going to come up is going to be really deep rooted. So that part I, I commend you, Holly, for that work that you've done for yourself because that part of you that desperately wanted them to see as difficult, you know, and all the difficulties that came with it that I'm amazed that you're able to evolve beyond that was that little trial that we all carry Holly who probably desperately wanted that for as long as she can. So I say that to get giving ourselves grace, especially when the conversation is around family and how we show up and if we're still frustrated in that relationship in its entirety or how we're still participating, you have to understand that. What's so difficult about it is because it's so deep rooted and that's when that inner child that I'm always talking about all of the wounds that she or he or whomever carries is really being triggered.
Speaker 3:Mm, absolutely. Is there anything else, Nicole, that you would add around this period of the holidays? Anything that maybe we haven't touched on yet that you know is going to be a golden nugget for our listeners? No pressure if not.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, I mean boundaries is the, it's interesting I'm doing a next week, I think it might be, I'm doing a live with another colleague on boundaries, boundaries shifting, changing, building in the moments and they might only be moments. I know what comes along with holidays is busy and plans. Right? So any moment, even if you can't give yourself an entire off day to just decompress and relax, maybe it's an off hour or you know, maybe instead of, you know, walking quickly to work and doing your emails, you put your phone away cause that's the only time that you'll get a minute to just be within your own self. However flexible, flexibly you can position time for just you because a lot of what comes with the holidays is others, people, parties, often enjoyable events. But what that's doing is removing us. Again, for those of us especially like me who have lived a life of external orientation that can really overtax us and we can quickly forget about the us in all of it. So it might not be the entire or you know, the deep longing that you want to just spend the Christmas day as you want to. Maybe you don't get where you don't make the choice to give yourself that. If you can't, that's an incredible gift to give, clearing out time and honoring what you want, even if it's an indifference to what other people around one of you, that's hard. So if you're not there, it might be micro moments. Like I said, it might be just building in, going to that yoga class at lunch and not thinking about the project that's waiting on your desk when you go back. Just being mindfully present to yourself is I think a golden nugget that I can offer. I know it's challenging, so it might look like small moments, but those small moments can go a long, long way because something about the holidays is, and while we want to share with others, I think that's part of our interpersonal nature. Um, we can't for the period of time between Christmas and what we're going to extend it to the new year, it's almost six weeks from Thanksgiving. It's almost like six weeks. So if I go on notice for six weeks going into January, I might be a little bit depleted of a, of a human.
Speaker 3:Mm. So remembering to fill our cup up as we are, I'm cheesy as hell as, as we're filling up eggnog Cubs with the, with the rest of our family. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole, this has been an amazing conversation. I just want to thank you once again for the work that you do because it's not only paving the way for this tribe of self healers being empowered and changing their own lives, but you're also, your work is really paving the way for holistic practitioners of all kinds in so many ways. Just just with validation and also being an example of what is possible. So I'm going to get all verklempt over here, but I just have to thank you from the bottom of my heart for, for who you are and the work that you do.
Speaker 1:I am too. Thank you so much for saying that Holly. I was having all the fields while you were saying that there was a little part of me that was resisting my little girl was like, Oh no, I'm not doing that. I'm not painting anyway, that's, that cannot be Bay. So I have my own, you know, um, conflicts that I, that I come up against in this journey, but it's beyond an honor. I feel that this concept, one of the, whew, that was very conceptual for my very, um, fight or flight oriented space line was this idea of passion. I thought I was not gifted and my partner has very much passionate about a lot of things. So I'm like, Oh, I miss that chip as well. Here's something else. So being able to actually settle into the reality that I am passionate and I do have a direction and a purpose and having people like you to support my direction of my purpose has meant everything. So I reflect right back to you how indebted I feel to all of the support that I've gained along the way and all the work that you're doing. You, I mean, if we're talking about my professional journey or my personal journey, they're both intertwined and supported by these amazing communities that I've now have or I'm orbiting in. And I am honored to, to connect with you and to continue to connect with you. And I'm super excited for the work you're doing in the world. Cause you're paving the way right alongside of me in a lot of ways. Thank Nicole. And
Speaker 3:it's just, I'm just excited for the world. I'm just excited for.
Speaker 1:And the, you know, how empowered I feel on the collective level. I mean, you really, it's very so dichotomous. You can have someone that looks at it and say, we're going down and kind of a society. And then I just look at how we're evolving up in a society. So it's just really a lot of the ways what you're choosing to focus on. I think. Yeah,
Speaker 3:I can't agree anymore and I just think like back, like I really hit rock bottom in 2012 and the landscape was just not the same as it is now. I think if you feel like you're at rock bottom right now, it's like, Oh, there's no better time to be at rock bottom than now because look at all these resources and amazing tools that you have at your disposal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That's the same thing. The double edged sword of, I hear this conversation often of social media, you know, I agree. It's how you choose to use it. What is the function? Because on the other edge of that sort of, it's too much. It's too distracting. I'm comparing myself down and depleting my sense of self worth. It's an endless, vast array of resources and connections that I never in a million years would have been able to make unless it existed. So it's again, conscious choice lives in the middle of how am I using anything in my environment, how am I perceiving anything that's happening around me and really embodying the fact that we have choice more than we think we have more than I know. I thought I had for the better part of three decades. So now that I've living it, why I'm so passionate to share it with others.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And that passion, man, it's, it's so funny to me that you, you thought you didn't have it because it just like radiates out of you. It's, it's so bright.
Speaker 1:[inaudible] saying that. Yeah. We, we had met, uh, I don't know if you ever read any Wayne Dyer.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love Wayne Dyer. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So my partner and I years ago are reading one of his books. Um, we kind of read the same books in tandem it often at times. And she was really relating cause he was talking about knowing his passion from a young age and, and she was like, Oh Wayne is may. And I'm like, and I felt like the[inaudible] kid locked down. Of course I was disgruntled about, I didn't, I didn't navigate that in the most mature way possible.
Speaker 3:Fine. You go hang out with Wayne and be passionate. I'll just be over here.
Speaker 1:I'll tell the truth about it. I thought like, okay, well I guess I don't have that. So that's as real in real time how not long ago. I truly believe that. I just didn't have that. And now here I am walking that journey and obviously communicating it and just my way of being, which is really validating to hear. So thank you.
Speaker 3:You're so welcome. You are so welcome Nicole. For those of you who don't know where to find you and aren't already like plugged into you, um, where can we find you? What's on the horizon for you? What do you have going on? Can you talk a little bit about self healer, circle, all that good stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. So the, the main hub that I'm always shouting out as the Instagram, the DOD, holistic thoughts, psychologists, pretty much everything I do runs through there in one way, shape or form. I am also in love with the link tree option. So in there you can find links to um, have a website with an email list, um, out. Now if you want to sign up, I have a free journal prompt, future self journal prompts that go out upon signup. You can grab that in that link tree. I also have a YouTube channel every Sunday for those YouTube ERs out there. I do release a new video. They're usually short and very practical. That comes out every Sunday. I'm on Instagram every day putting out new content, living the work. You'll see me journaling. I really kept my morning routine with just journaling, but there's a lot, they're always sharing, you know, kind of my own pieces of the puzzle and concepts and things like that. So following along you can get a lot, a lot of resources. And on that email list, pretty much anything I develop, I release to the followers. I'm really, I'm not proprietary. I really just want people who are interested in doing this work to have the opportunity to do the work. Um, so the new IST edition is I am I offering a virtual membership, it's called the cellular circle. We launched it on November 1st so the first enrollment period is close for now, but it's really harnessing the power of community healing a, I think it's an incredible, it's a part of my journey that was lacking when I began healing. I felt very isolated and very lonely. So I know how much community can heal. So the membership is my attempt that fostering a virtual community of people from around really the world at this point, which is mind blowing to me, but where every month there will be, it will be opening in the future. So I'm not just talking about something that people can, can have access to, doors have closed, the ship has sailed, but I, I will be reopening it probably honestly, Holly, on the other side of a move that I'm having for myself, this, this winter, but every month we'll also be diving into a content of healing. I'll have experts, myself included really teaching content and helping kind of self helping guide people through a self-directed healing journey with the support of other self healers. So I'm probably, I have my eye on March ish. Um, I say the ish cause I'm planning to move from the cold of the Northeast to sunny LA and February 1st if all things go well, cross country move style. And then once I'm settled in I'm going to reopen that membership. So I will be shouting that from the rooftops of Instagram. So anyone who might be interested in that experience and definitely stay posted via my Instagram. And as soon as I have more clarity I'll be letting everyone know when the date of that next enrollment will be wonderful. And we will link all of this up in the show notes so you can go find Nicole and Oh my gosh, you're doing exactly what I did last year. So last February 1st I moved from Southeast Michigan in the middle of the polar vortex. It was literally negative 15 degrees when we packed the Penske track. And then I moved down to Asheville and it was 60 when we got here. So I'm going to hope that you have better weather for your move, Nicole.
Speaker 4:You know I'm flying. So as long as the airplane can lift off, I don't give a shit what the weather is cause I am not looking in all seriousness. Holly, we, my partner and I are very non-attached and we've moved so often now with our stuff that there's not much stuff that I'm interested in keeping. So I'm actually going to donate or you know, kind of give away. Most of them, I'm not getting most of my apartment so that I can just, I mean really like, you know, the mementos, there's very few of the real small stuff that could fit into a suitcase or be shipped. We'll go and then the rest of it, I'm just going to start a new on the other side. So when I say I'm getting on an airplane, I don't care the weather or you know, what about it as long as my cats. Um, and they're taken care of and they're trans, they're transport. I don't care what happens.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, and that's the way to do it. That is absolutely the way to do it. Well, we all wish you were really safe move regardless and once again, Nicole, just thank you so much for coming on the show today. Really, really appreciate it. It's been amazing talking with you.
Speaker 4:Of course. It's been truly a pleasure, Holly. Thank you.
Speaker 2:That conversation was hands down the highlight of my year so far, so thank you to dr Nicole for coming on this show. Thank you for listening. Couple of things for you. If you are interested in the food mood connection and you want to learn more about that, head on over to mind, speak podcast.com backslash food mood, all one word mind speak, podcast.com backslash food mood. It's also linked up in the show notes, everything that we talked about today, resources, et cetera. All of that is linked up in the show notes. You can also just head over to mind speak podcast.com to learn more about the[inaudible]. I also have linked up there, a ebook about subconscious self sabotage, and there's a little bonus audio, therefor you too. So it's all linked up in the show notes. You can head over to the website to learn more. Really appreciate you hanging out today. You can find dr Nicole over at[inaudible] dot holistic dot psychologist on Instagram, and you can come hang out with me over at Holly Fisher begins. I look forward to getting to know you and cheering you on, and until next time, go believe in you. I do.