Heart to Heart with Anna

Liel and her Many Gifts: A Family's Decision to Donate One Girl's Lungs, Kidneys, and more!

June 25, 2018 Michael Liben Season 12 Episode 1
Heart to Heart with Anna
Liel and her Many Gifts: A Family's Decision to Donate One Girl's Lungs, Kidneys, and more!
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Show Notes Transcript
Michael Liben is the Host of "Heart to Heart with Michael" and he is also the bereaved father of Liel Liben. In today's program, Michael discusses with Host, Anna Jaworski, why he and his family decided to donate Liel's organs when she died. He talks about the religious ramifications, who benefited from her donations and why he feels so strongly about organ donation.Support the show

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spk_0:   0:03
too hard to her. With Anna. I am

spk_2:   0:05
Enna, Korsky and the host of this program. This is the first episode of Season 12 part weaknesses in his organ donation and transplantation. I'm very excited for today Show to feature our heart dead in Israel and also a dear friend who has been working very closely with me is the host of heart to heart. With Michael. I've known Michael leaving for almost 20 years, and now we're working together for the hug Pockets number to provide podcast about the congenital heart defect and bereaved communities. Michael even is the father of Leo. Leo was born a double outlet right ventricle and a ventricular septal defect in her life. She had three heart surgeries. At age four, Leah was diagnosed with autism and then, at 13 with epilepsy. Leah was this stunningly happy child who loved music and creative activities. She was happy every single day of her life, and the only thing she totally hated was epilepsy and the lack of control that engendered. At age 13 and 1/2. She had gone to live in a home with other autistic Children, many of whom had epilepsy. So they weren't surprised when she developed it. Nobody, however, expected that one morning. It was simply take her with that warning when Leo past, her parents were able to donate organs and, if so, doing save the lives of four women between the ages of seven and 67. Michael and his wife, Leora, also have two other Children, Don and Sapir, who were wonderful siblings to Leo. Michael is the host of Heart Art with Michael, a program for the bereaved community he is now in his second season. Michael is the technical director for the Hug Podcast Network, and he works closely with me on her toe hurt with Anna. So welcome to heart to heart with Anna Michael.

spk_3:   1:39
Well, thank you very much. It's really very nice to be back here.

spk_2:   1:41
Well, it's great to have you back. My longtime listeners may remember you from Season seven, when our theme was congenital heart defects around the globe and we visited with you from Israel.

spk_3:   1:51
That was exciting because it was not only a chance to talk about Leo, which is always a wonderful thing, but it was on introduction to me into the whole hug, podcast network and it's been very, very happy. Since then.

spk_2:   2:01
It has been, well, let's get started and talk about Leo's organs and your family's decision to donate them.

spk_3:   2:08
We all went into epileptic seizure on a Friday morning early in the morning, and it was probably sudden, unexpected death in epilepsy Sudip, which is something they don't talk about much. They were able to stop that, and she got to the hospital in the late morning with a low blood pressure and the heart beat. And by the time we got up, there is a two hour drive. By the time we got up there, at about 1/4 to 12 the doctor told us we had two options. We had bad and really bad and really bad was that she might wake up. So we knew where we were heading, and it took about 34 days to finally land at a determination of brain death. And we knew from the beginning that's where it was going. So the hospital found a way to put us up for a few days, and that Saturday afternoon, when we were walking around the grounds, I was talking with Leora, my wife, and she said. You know, you should really ask the doctor about transplant, and I hadn't occurred to me that this was even an option. And it's funny because that's something that we always that was a good idea.

spk_2:   3:02
So it is something that you are talked about previously?

spk_3:   3:06
No, we never discussed it previously because it never came up in the family is something that you know. It's something realistic. But but are general opinions were most of us or general opinions were that it's probably a good idea to do it to me. It seemed normal because, having grown up in the States, I had seen it a lot. And I remember the first heart transplant in South Africa from Dr Christian Barnard when I was just a little kid. So this was always something in my mind that was possible, and so we hadn't thought much about it. But when I came up, we are is the one who brought it up. And of course I agree right away. But I did want to discuss it with the whole family. I said, This is something that we really have to do together.

spk_2:   3:38
Yes, absolutely. Because it's not quite as comment in Israel as it is in the United States, is it

spk_3:   3:45
No, not not, really not at all. And there's some reasons for that. It's not well known, and there are religious implications of donation, and we can get into that if you'd like. But it's been a controversial thing for a very long time, but within the Jewish community, not so much anymore. But it was for a while. And if you'd like, I can go into some of that.

spk_2:   4:03
Yes, let's go ahead and talk about what the religious implications of organ donation are.

spk_3:   4:09
Well, number one, there's always the question off. Well, what's gonna happen in the resurrection? People will come back. Missing organs. How's that gonna work? And my answer to that is always been with a slight giggle. Unless the resurrection is for about 48 hours away, most people aren't gonna have those organs anyway, and that's true. And it's humorous, but it's true, and the other

spk_2:   4:29
I agree with you. I think it's funny that you said, you say that with a giggle. Well, I do,

spk_3:   4:33
because if you think about it, having most things in Judaism tend to be logical, intend to make sense at least a lot of things to do, and so that's something that never made sense to me. The other thing is that if God is going to resurrect me and everybody around me, if he can do that, he can also resupply the missing organs. So I was never concerned about that. It's interesting justice an aside that one of the greatest American rabbis, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein in the sixties, came a long way in his evolution on the subject. He had originally said it was a terrible thing to do. He didn't understand or nobody actually understood. They didn't have in the sixties a good definition of death on dhe. So clinical death, he thought, wasn't enough. And he called it, in fact, a double murder, which I'm very happy to say that by the time he died, some 10 15 years after that decision, he revisited that decision and decided that knowing what we know about brain death and it's irreversibility, that organ donation is a very good thing to do. He came down strongly in favor of it, and that opened the way for the rabbit in Israel to also make of a final finding that it's a good thing to do. And in Judaism, that's very important because most of the 316 Commandments that we talk about most of them fall by the wayside. When you're faced with question of saving a life, saving a life comes higher than almost every other commandment that there is. And so being able to do that and knowing that you're doing a good thing that you're saving a life really opened the way for the religious decisions to do that. Unfortunately, I would say that's not been accepted by everybody. And so it remains a question. But officially, it is not a question officially to very, very good thing to do, and it's the sort of thing that we'd like to see more off.

spk_2:   6:04
I agree. What do you think is the biggest obstacle preventing this from being more widely accepted in Israel

spk_3:   6:10
ignorance. Straight out about a week before we were facing a decision about Leal's organs, there was a famous case of a soccer player who was tragically killed in an accident. I think he was on a motorcycle and his will was too donate organs and his family was about to go along with that and a rabbi showed up and said, You can't do that. Maybe he'll come back. And of course, that's just medically ridiculous and made no sense of the time. But they wasted enough time revisiting their decision that they lost the availability to use his organs. It is tragic because it didn't have to happen, and about a week later we come along and it's now It's the end of December and Leo died on December 31st and by January 1st we were out there saving a bunch of people. We saved four lives for women in Israel, and we thought that was clipping to

spk_1:   6:58
d'oh. That's

spk_2:   6:59
a wonderful thing to do. We'll be talking about that more in our next segment

spk_0:   7:10
forever by the Baby Blue Sound collective. I think what I love so much about this CD is that some of the songs were inspired by the patient's many listeners will understand many of the different songs and what they've been inspired. Our new album will be available on iTunes amazon dot com Spotify I love effect that the proceeds from this CD are actually going to help those with congenital heart defects. Music Tonight Forever, huh?

spk_1:   7:45
Anna Dworsky has written several books to empower the Congenital Heart Defect or C H D Community. These books could be found at amazon dot com or at our website, www dot baby hearts press dot com. Her best seller is The Heart of a Mother, an anthology of stories written by Women for Women in the CHD community and his other books. My Brother Needs an Operation, The Heart of a Father and Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome. A Handbook for Parents will help you understand that you are not alone. Visit baby hearts press dot com to find out more. You are listening to heart to heart with Anna. If you have a question or comment that you would like to dress down show, please send an email to Anna Dworsky at Anna at heart to heart with anna dot com. That's Anna at heart to heart with anna dot com Now back to heart, to heart with them. Michael

spk_2:   8:43
Before the break, we were talking about how you were able to save for women with Leo's organs. When did we start by talking about when you met the 67 year old woman who received Leo's lungs.

spk_3:   8:58
Well, I didn't exactly meter. I got a phone call one day from a number I didn't recognize, and it was an older woman on the phone and through the course of the conversations, First mentor to I understood that she was the woman who received two lungs at the same time. I also understood that every breath she took in every word that she said originated in my daughter's lungs, which was a very powerful moment. I'm surprised I got through it. Actually, I later found out she told me her name is Mazal, which means luck or fortune in Hebrew, and she does have a lot month and, people said was out of it means good luck. Congratulations. And she really did have good fortune. Last I heard she's still doing very well, and it's a pleasure to speak with her. It was a very powerful moment, and she called me, she said, I have to tell you, the reason I'm calling is because I just want, you know, I feel very, very bad that I benefited from your daughter's dying and I said to her she was gone anyway and that it was fine with us that we could soften the blow and do something good. And we were understood that what we were home sitting and crying. We understood that four families would be singing and dancing, and we were very okay with that. And then she said, Well, that's what the rabbi told me, and that's what the social worker told me, and that's what my friends and family all told me. But I needed to hear that from you. I needed to be, in a sense, absolved. I needed for you to tell me that it was okay. And now

spk_2:   10:19
Wow, Well,

spk_3:   10:22
the ice will get all choked up from there.

spk_2:   10:24
That's a really powerful interchange of ideas right there that she was feelings of guilt. And yet you were feeling happy to know that because of Leo's passing, she was able to help somebody else because otherwise it seems to me all you would have is a passing to deal with. You don't have the knowing that something good happened from that.

spk_3:   10:45
Well, that's the funny thing, because the emotions are completely mixed up in, sometimes upside down. Obviously, we're very, very sad. We didn't want to lose her and at the same time, I don't have happy is the right word. But we're pleased that we were able to take that moment of terrible pain and turning at least for somebody else into a moment of joy. So, yeah, we're happy to have helped and very upset to have been in the position where we could have helped. It's not a place you want to be, but when you're there, you want to do the right thing. And that, in some sense, Amillia rates the painting. It'll never go away during the right thing is always good.

spk_2:   11:16
I think it's amazing that you actually got to speak to the woman who received your daughter's lungs. But I know that you dig it to meet face to face the little girl who received Leo's kidney. So why don't you tell me about that?

spk_3:   11:28
Well, that that was actually is an amazing story, because I got an email from my nephew in New Jersey saying that there's a guy named Hussein who wants to talk to you. He thinks his daughter may have your daughter's kidney. What happened? Hussein works in a place in Jerusalem where a lot of Americans go to study. And he was telling people there about what happened to his daughter, how she was waiting for kidney, and they were told the rich wasn't going to get it. And then the last minute a kidney became available, so he was very happy. I was telling people about it, and one of the young lady's studying their nose. My nephew and she heard the last name Liban. So she wrote an email to New Jersey saying, Are you related to this guy Libin, whose daughter donated kidneys Hussein is looking for? So my nephew said, Yeah, that's my uncle And he e mailed me and Hussein lives to maybe 10 minutes from here.

spk_2:   12:18
I wish your nephew over

spk_3:   12:21
10,000 miles away.

spk_2:   12:22
10,000

spk_3:   12:24
exactly the power of email in modern electronics.

spk_0:   12:27
How did

spk_2:   12:28
they know? They newly else name the newly l even

spk_3:   12:31
know they knew leaving because my nephew was a Leven.

spk_2:   12:34
They knew when they received her that it was, you

spk_3:   12:36
know, I don't know how they made that connection exactly. Hey might have, because we were up in the newspaper and I had appeared on the radio with Hussein's wife, who's spoken of Hebrew that we could be interviewed together. So it's very possible that they heard the name. We been somewhere and then picked it up. That makes total sense. Okay, so I get this email from my nephew in New Jersey saying, You gotta call Hussein. I call his saying and he's like, really excited If you haven't figured out from his name, Hussein is not from the Jewish part of town. And so this is a politically charged moment where we donated a kidney to a seven and 1/2 year old Palestinian girl. They don't ask you, and that's fine with us. It's all delivered by merit. There's no questions at who's from where. It's all done by who needs it. And he says, We're coming to visit you or you're coming to visit us, but we have to meet I said, Well, okay, nobody in my family wanted to meet with any of the recipients, which I respect. I'm completely different from that, and I wanted every chance to meet anybody I could. And now I had already been interviewed on the radio with Hussein's wife. So I asked, I said, Listen, do you

spk_0:   13:32
mind? I'm a

spk_3:   13:33
filmmaker can I bring a cameraman with me for this meeting? And they said sure. So me and a cameraman went out to meet them in their home, and I met the little girl and they spoke a little bit of Hebrew and a little bit of English, and I spoke even less Arabic. It's amazing, but my cameraman could speak all three. So it was all right. And, uh, yes, So we got along for was a couple of hours and we were talking and it was wonderful. At one point I hugged this little girl. She's seven a half years old, and at the moment that I hugged her. My kidney was the same distance from that kidney that it had always been whenever I hugged my own child. So there was that. And of course, they were all happy to see me. First thing I did was break down and Sabol over there.

spk_2:   14:11
Well, how touching would it be to meet somebody who quite possibly might not have survived without your daughters can. She

spk_3:   14:20
definitely would not have survived. They told the parents it's time to pack up. We're not gonna find it, so she definitely would not have survived. People don't think about it. But if you need a kidney, means it's not that you have one that works because you have zero. So there was nothing. She was on dialysis and she wasn't doing very well and it was over and they were getting ready for the worst. And suddenly we came by with the answer.

spk_2:   14:37
So I didn't know that you had been on a radio with the wife. The husband didn't go to that interview as well.

spk_3:   14:44
Well, the husband. I don't think his Hebrew was as good as the mother or whatever reason. I don't know how they made that decision. We got a call from Israel Army Radio, which is one of the most problem radio stations in country, and they said, Would you be willing to go on now? We were still sitting Shiva Was that still at first week after she had died. So we were sitting and available and I said, Yeah, I'd be willing to do that. It was very difficult because it was while I was on the phone with the radio. That's when I heard the mother talking, and that's when I found out that the doctors had told them it was over. Okay, So again live. They heard me breaking down because that that was a moment.

spk_2:   15:19
So most of us think when we hear people on the radio that people go into a studio to record. But you were able to do this on the telephone, just like you and I are recording this show,

spk_3:   15:29
right? And

spk_2:   15:29
so you didn't really meet the mother?

spk_3:   15:31
No, I hadn't met the mother. I heard her voice. We were They were blocking us on and off so that, you know, one could go on the air. Yelling was waiting, but I could hear her while I was on the phone and apparently in studio, they heard me going. Oh, my gosh. Said they heard that. And they said, This is a big thing for you, is it? I said, Yeah, this is pretty bad because I didn't know No nothing. I want to say it's very important in the Arab culture. Fatherhood is something that you don't question. Fatherhood is something that is sacred, and you leave it alone. I don't know a lot of Arabic, but I know enough to understand that when he was talking to her. He pointed at me and he said, He's also your father.

spk_2:   16:02
That's huge.

spk_3:   16:04
Yeah, it really is. I'm breaking up right now. It really is a bit.

spk_2:   16:08
Let's talk about Leo's legacy. What do you feel? The else greatest gifts were?

spk_3:   16:13
Well, she taught us a lot of things. You taught us to find joy and everything. She told us to laugh with everything that happens and and so doing. We were able to and think memorialize her in a way that we took a terrible, terrible tragedy and in some respect we couldn't turn it around 100 80 degrees. She's not here, but we were able to find meaning and value with what was left for us to do. I wouldn't say that there was value in her death because there isn't any. But I would say that when you're in a situation where there is nothing left to do, you've got to do the right thing. And for us, that was the most important thing, and it didn't bring her back. But in some sense she didn't completely leave us. And so we still have her joy and we have her laughter and we can also be comforted knowing that four people were saved that night and again, I've said this many, many times. But we're aware that what we were sitting huddled together, his family and crying. Four other families were jumping for joy, dancing and singing. And it's totally all right with us.

spk_4:   17:14
Takes this hot industry. We're offering us a mechanical hot, and he said, now that I've had enough to give it to someone my father promised me a golden dressed world held my hand and asked me where I wanted to go. Whatever strive for conflict that we experienced in our long career together was always healed by humor.

spk_1:   17:35
Heart to heart With Michael Please join us every Thursday at noon, Eastern as we talked with people from around the world who have experienced those most difficult

spk_0:   17:42
moments. I am with origami L jewelry and we personalized luck. It's It has helped me heal so much by having that locket. I've had other friends and customers who have created lockets. They'd love their lockets, and they gift lockets to people who are bereaved or they're celebrating somebody to get your own origami. Our luck it contact Nancy Jensen on Facebook for her website. Fancy Dancy Me dr origami owl dot com Michael.

spk_2:   18:16
Now you and your family are very strong advocates for organ donation. Can you tell us about the special tradition that the organ donation organization participates in every year in Israel?

spk_3:   18:28
Well, I'm not sure if traditions right word. It sounds a little bit religious, but what they do do is they keep us close on. They make us feel like a family. And so there's a bunch of things that they dio to help keep us together and to remind us always that we have family. And it's a very, very big family. Some of the things they do every year on the high holidays in around September October and also on Passover, which is you generally around late March early April, a truck shows up and they give us food Now. We didn't know this was coming the first year. What's interesting is that the first year this happened, we were just moving on with their lives and Passover was coming. And everybody's dream on. Passover is not to have to clean the oven, so we actually order to do of in that year, and I get a phone call from this guy says I'm bringing you something and I just figured that was the oven. It was two days before Passover. The ovens do. I said, Well, okay, I'll be home. You bring in the oven. He didn't answer me. You know, he said so. I don't know. I just have some boxes. I don't know what he's talking about. Guy shows up. I figure he's gonna bring up enough and just come down and pick it up. So what do you talking? Come down? I got some boxes. Now, apparently, is a note that goes into the box that they neglected to put. So we had no idea what this coming from. I said, Who are you? He said, I'm from the Ministry of Health. And then he laughed. And get

spk_0:   19:35
out of this

spk_3:   19:36
box is care packages of food. And I'm thinking, Well, we don't need that. And I've helped deliver food to the needy before, and that's it Looks like this eventually figured out means something because it's the Ministry of Health, which is the parent organization for the transplant. They as a gesture of friendliness every year of holidays, threw out some food in you, which is actually very, very nice. And I would say it quite like that. But they deliver food and it's it's actually big help. About two years ago they started doing it also on the high holidays, so we never know it's coming. It's always a very nice surprise, but what they do also, which is much more serious, is that every month they have lectures in Tel Aviv. If you want to go have support groups, they have discussions. And then I found out also this year somebody do every two years and on Lee for those groups of those two years, we got ours. We're not gonna get another one. We were invited to the president's residence in Jerusalem and there was a big ceremony and there we met with the larger family of donors, which is always very nice. They also brought a recipient to speak, which was very, very touching. And so it was a chance for us to sort of get together and be recognized by the state of Israel. Is having done something good, which always makes you feel good, you know? So it's very nice to be recognized people throw the word around the film the word hero around. I don't feel that I'm a particular hero, but it is very nice to be recognized. It's not something we can do a second time, I think. But it's something that we did. And sometimes you have to be reminded you have to be made to feel good again about it because it's a very difficult subject and it's very wrenching from time to time.

spk_2:   21:01
It was interesting to me how in segment to you said that Father told the little girl that now she had another father, which is a symbol of family. And when you started talking about this tradition that it's about family, it's really saying Look, you're part of a larger community and they're not letting you forget what it is that you did that there Recognizing how important contribution Waas

spk_3:   21:25
Well, we're in a very large family, breathed I mean everybody in some sense if they look for it there, bereaved in one way or another. But within that community there's a sub group which is much, much smaller, and that's the people who donate. And the truth is that I can't speak for other members of my family, but I do feel very, very close. And when I'm with the other members of that family of donors, we share something that's very hard for anybody else. Understand? It's almost like twin siblings. There's something between us is a communication is the language is a look in your eye that says a lot, that no one else can understand, that we need to get together once in a while. I think just to feel that connection, it really, really does help.

spk_2:   22:01
Well, I know this year that when you went to the president's mansion that you met some people, and that resulted in an opportunity for you to do some public speaking. So can you talk to me about that?

spk_3:   22:13
Yeah. The transplant coordinator for the Jerusalem area is a very nice guy named Carol. We invited him this year to speak it Leal's fifth memorial, and he actually gave some very important information that made my other daughters appear feel much better. She's, it turns out, was not 100% with the idea of donation until she met Carol, who explained what she missed five years earlier because she was much younger. The whole idea of brain death. And when they take organs and there's no way back and and there's no other option, it may disappear. Feel a lot better. And then that's when I figured out with Carol. Maybe we really oughta take this on the road and speak to people. And he said, Well, you know, I speak to people all over the place. I speak to high school kids, I speak to families and I always like to have a donor family with me because there's something that only you can explain. And so I went with him and we recently spoke to a group of about 132nd graders and with us was a person. I didn't know events. He was coming. He had received the liver. And so, between us, a friendly argument, brother, who is the hero? I would say you're the hero. You went through this difficult procedure, not knowing if you were gonna come out of it, he says. You're the hero. You're the ones who enabled that procedure to happen. So that was kind of a friendly

spk_2:   23:18
on.

spk_3:   23:19
It was kind of actually very interesting that the real the real moment came when I spoke to the kids and of course I because it's me. I broke down a few times and they were enraptured. They were listening really intensely. And I said, I want to talk about my daughter Leo and all about things that she had. And I talked about epilepsy and I talked about Sudip and then later on it's over and I'm talking again with this recipient and we're just sort of shooting the breeze a little bit. And I see these two students were waiting to talk to us, so I transferred. Yeah, Can I help you? You have a question. And she said, Well, you kind of scared me. I said, Well, how said I'm epileptic? I'm 17 and my name is Lee El

spk_2:   23:53
Um, I

spk_3:   23:54
so festival, I learned. Next time, learn your audience better. Maybe not go there. But it was one of those moments where the world had bent itself around to bring us together that moment to be at that point, and we tried very hard to personal. Tell her that medication today is not what it was even five years ago and that she was already 17 and she was probably gonna be okay anyway, in terms of that and that, Leo had so many other things that were conflicting. And somebody had things going on inside her body that it was for conclusion that Leo had a lot more trouble than this very nice 17 year old Leo who was standing in front of us. And it was kind of a moment because Miley l would be 20. The seal was 17. So there was one of those moments where, huh? But it worked out just fine. And I hope that we'll get to speak with more kids. And I really want to speak to families and really don't speak to people who are maybe facing that moment.

spk_2:   24:42
So if someone were on the fence about organ donation, Michael, what would you tell them?

spk_3:   24:46
Well, that's pretty simple. The first thing I tell people is that of all the commandments and Judaism, if you have an opportunity to save a life, you really have to. Okay, so and saving a life is a good thing, and you should feel good about it. And you're in a position where, with Leo's case we made for 15 years, we made decisions regarding life and death. This was not a decision of life and death. This is his decision on Leigh to give somebody life from death. OK, death had happened and we were There was the final stop. No way back. So if you can save a life, you really have to. That's the first thing. The second thing is, we were looking for a way to memorialize her immediately and with meaning. And there's no better way to do that than to have the gift of life. That person becomes living memorial, a living monument to my daughter, and the third thing is a silly as it might sound. Any part of her that you continue to live is just fine with may. Really, if you could still go on living, whatever it was, I wanted that, and in a very real sense, she's not completely gone. Very real sense. She lives on in four other people who are alive and well and doing the best they can. That transplants, or sometimes difficult transplants, are not a great fix. It's a transplanted organ, is a diseased organ. By definition, it's a trade up. We all know that it's a trade up from one disease to another disease. And yet, if I can help facilitate somebody, do that or I'll say to a family, If you can help somebody do that with your loved one, then you're going to find meaning in the worst tragedy of your life and that meaning is a good thing, and saving life is a good thing. You'll never be able to bring your loved one back, but you will find some sort of peace

spk_2:   26:16
that is so true and all I could envision while you were saying all of this was that seven year old little girl growing up, that maybe becoming a mother someday. I think that's to the kidney that you so generously donated.

spk_3:   26:30
I just wanna point, because we talked about Mazal and we talked about the little girl. But we didn't mention that there was a 54 year old woman who got a liver and a 45 year old woman who got a kidney and a pancreas. Are we also donated to the bank, a cornea and skin and cartilage, so we really run the gamut on that and there will be people that we don't even know who will be benefiting from the skin, the cartilage, the cornea we don't even know. And it's okay with us to help somebody. I mean, the skin is a burn victim. The cartilage, we don't know. Maybe an accident victim. The cornea is maybe somebody We're gonna restore their eyesight, at least in one eye. And there's no end to it. There's no, and it really, really is the gift that keeps on giving. And every time you think about it, every time I go to that place where it hurts me, I can also realize that we've got a lot of good for a lot of people.

spk_2:   27:16
Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Michael. And for sharing all of these wonderful stories with us.

spk_3:   27:23
Well, it's always a pleasure to talk to you, and every opportunity is a good opportunity. And every opportunity to talk about transplant is just a great thing. Thank you so much.

spk_2:   27:31
It absolutely is. I feel like this was the perfect way to start off the season, Michael. That does conclude this episode

spk_1:   27:37
of heart to heart with Thanks for

spk_0:   27:39
listening today. Find us on iTunes and some smart fight

spk_1:   27:42
remember, my

spk_2:   27:42
friends, you are not alone.

spk_5:   27:46
This program is a presentation of hearts, Unite the globe and is part of the hug Podcast Network Hearts Unite The Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resource is to the congenital heart defect community to uplift on power and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resource is pretending to the CHD community. Please visit our website at www dot hug dash podcast network dot com for information about CHD, the hospitals that treat Children with CHD summer camps for CHD survivors and much, much more.

spk_1:   28:27
Thank you again for joining us this week way. Hope you have been inspired on Empowered to become an advocate for the congenital heart defect community. Heart to heart with Anna With your hose down, Dworsky can be heard every Tuesday at 12 noon Eastern time.

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