Web Design Business with Josh Hall

362 - Change Your Money Story - Change Your Business with Austin Church

• Josh Hall

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Let’s talk about money.

How’d that make you feel? Nervous? Icky? Excited? Opportunistic? Weird?

The very thought of money brings a variety of emotions depending on how you feel about it. And I firmly believe how you feel about money today all goes back to your money story – and every one of us has a money story largely based on how we were raised.

When you build a web design business, you probably don’t realize that you’re subconsciously making business decisions based on your money story. And if that story isn’t pretty…well…it makes sense why it’s hard to charge your worth, raise your rates, build profit, sell with confidence, etc.

So to take a deep dive into the psychology of money and to most importantly, to help you build your business with a mindset of plenty and opportunity, I’m pumped to bring on someone who’s changed their money story from scarce to plenty…Austin Church. He’s the author of the book Free Money - a Guide to Pricing Your Services so You Can Unlock a Better Lifestyle.

His book was referred to me as a MUST READ from a trusted colleague and let me tell ya, after this conversation, I have to agree. Austin’s approach to changing your money mindset is a must for creative business owners. Especially if you don’t come from money. Which, let’s be honest, most of us don’t.

We dig into:

  • How our upbringing affects our money mindset today
  • Steps you can take to change your money story TODAY
  • How the internet opened up the door to different money mindset compared to previous generations
  • How to take small steps to build confidence with pricing
  • How $100,000 is not a gross goal to get to – but a base standard of living in the West

Highly recommend checking Austin’s book out and connecting with him below.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/362

Big thanks to the sponsors for our upcoming Web Designer Pro CON 2025 event! We couldn't make such a top-notch event for my community without their support 🙏

17hats (for proposals, invoicing, contracts and automation)

SiteGround (for website hosting)

Termageddon (for auto-updating privacy po

Austin Church:

$100,000 is not an arbitrary number. If you live in a developed nation and you live in a larger metropolitan area and with the housing market being the way it is and health insurance costs being the way they are, $100,000 doesn't mean being rich. $100,000 means living a decent life.

Josh Hall:

Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. All right, friends, in this episode we're going to talk about money, and what's really interesting is the very term. Money makes all of us feel differently. It may make you feel nervous, it might make you feel icky to even talk about it or maybe, on the opposite, maybe you feel excited or opportunistic. It is fascinating. I find money psychology really interesting and really important because your money story, particularly how you were brought up around money, segues right into your business. So, to help us have a healthy money story and a money mindset in order to run a profitable web design business.

Josh Hall:

I'm absolutely pumped to bring on Austin Church. He is the author of the book Free Money a guide to pricing your services so that you can unlock a better lifestyle. Free money a guide to pricing your services so that you can unlock a better lifestyle. And the reason I mentioned that book is it was mentioned to me several times and I have a close colleague who said this is a must read, so I wanted to make sure to get Austin on. We have actually connected in the past. Uh, and then when I found out that he had wrote this book and he is a bit of a an expert with this money mindset and psychology of money I was like we got to have a chat about this.

Josh Hall:

I really enjoyed this one. We get into how your upbringing affects your money mindset in your business today, the steps you can take to start to change your money story, especially if you have a bad money story. How the internet opened up the door to different money mindsets compared to previous generations that didn't have this opportunity. How you can take very small steps to start building confidence with pricing and raising your rates. And one of my favorite parts of this chat how a hundred thousand dollars is not by any means a gross goal but just a base standard of living If you're going to live in the West, and a whole lot more. So I hope you enjoy this one of friends. I sure did Be sure to check out Austin's book free Money, and you can connect with him over at his website, freelancecakecom. And, of course, all the links are going to be at the show notes for this one, which are going to be found at joshhallco slash 362. Let's talk money. Well, austin, it's great to have you on, man. Let's talk some money, if that sounds good.

Austin Church:

Always, always, happy to talk money.

Josh Hall:

Why is? Let me just throw it out there. Why is money or do you think money is extra hard? As a creative, or anybody in entrepreneurial especially creative, you know designers, web designers, graphic designers, brand designers why is money so dang hard, sometimes the mindset of it?

Austin Church:

I think it is. I think that is due in part to the fact that a lot of us are sensitive and when the same sort of aptitude attracts us to creative work also ends up being a stumbling block where we're emotional and sensitive about something like money.

Josh Hall:

I do think money can already be complicated, so I do think it's harder for us so I do think it's harder for us, right off the bat, fascinating money psychology within the first minute of our chat. Why is money emotional? I guess this is fascinating already. So why do you think money is an emotional thing? Or is it only emotional for some people?

Austin Church:

I think the number of people, or the percentage of people it's not very emotional for, is very, very small. I think money is a tool for paying bills, for doing good. Also think it means options, and so when you think, well, why is it emotional? It's because it is symbolic of hey, I want to travel with my kids. Hey, I want to get a better house. Hey, I want to get a house, I want stability, I want to make my mark on a place, and on and on from there.

Austin Church:

Like all the things that we want, you know, big chunk of them become easier or more possible with money, and so our dreams get bound up in this thing called money, which is both like something physical or tangible. It's also something that's more abstract. It's a concept, too, right, and so I think that's why we just get so turned around with this idea. It's something we need in a modern society, where I cannot give Josh a couple of goats to design a website for me. We need a medium of exchange. We need a medium of exchange. So it's very pragmatic in terms of it's just a tool.

Austin Church:

It's a medium for exchange of value, right, but it has so many other layers to it we often don't understand our layers, we don't understand how we feel about those layers. And then, based on where people come from, with, like their family of origin, the stories they told you know, came to believe or were told growing up about money, we kind of have this cargo, this backpack, full of impressions and half-baked beliefs that we bring into adulthood. Some of them are true, some of them are sometimes true, some of them are straight up false, but a lot of us make it into adulthood without understanding the layers, without unpacking the backpack, and so, sure enough, then you start a creative business, you're a web designer, web developer. Then you start a creative business, you're a web designer, web developer, writer, strategist, whatever, and you need to make money. And, sure enough, you slam nose first into this whole subject that you've never fully examined before.

Josh Hall:

That's such a great frame to build on, because money mindset is what I've found in myself and teaching a lot of people and coaching a lot of people over the years. My money mindset is based off of a money story, so I think you've very very eloquently put, like whatever you were experienced growing up, you take in with you.

Josh Hall:

but I love this challenge. I think it's a good time, especially in the new year this will be coming out and beginning of 2025 to really examine your own money story and your relationship with money. Um, I feel like, when it comes to a money story, one thing I've I've found as as a coach I don't know if you've seen this as well, austin, I know you know we're we're not exact, we're not like um, we don't do the exact same thing. We serve a different set of people. But I imagine you've seen what I have seen in that a lot of people run their business through the lens of their money story. And one thing I've really tried to teach people is like you need to separate yourself personally from your business. You know your business, revenue, your goals, what you want. Your money story needs to take a backseat. Can you talk about that Like, uh, that's probably easier said than done, but how do you separate your business and your, your, your your worth and value as a web designer, for example, from your personal money story?

Austin Church:

So I haven't that question and I want to tell you very quickly about this dogfight that ensued in the comments on one of my LinkedIn posts, Because it was just so emblematic, or like these two different and clashing paradigms showed up and I was talking, what I was sharing, what I thought was like a fairly common sense observation, which is you know, what things are worth depends on what people will pay. The sort of beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what people will pay goes up with perceived value. What people will pay goes up with perceived value, and perceived value goes up with perceived expertise. You know context and a few other factors, some of which are in our control and some of which aren't. I was just pointing this out. Right, you will pay more for a burger or a beer of lower quality at a baseball stadium than you would if you were at a restaurant, right, Because your context has changed at the baseball stadium. So it's like surely everyone knows that creative projects don't have set prices. There are a number of things that change what people will pay, even their own sense of urgency, Right? So one guy rolls into the comments and he's like, oh, I could not agree more. And I'm like, oh, that's great. And another guy rolls in and he's like if you charge a penny more than you need to make for a project, you are gouging the client.

Austin Church:

Now I found that confusing because I think that pricing is positioning, Pricing is branding. You put signals out into the world that either communicate I'm really good at what I do, I'm confident at what I do, I'm confident I'm an expert. Experts tend to charge more than amateurs. That's one of the ways that we signal that we're better is by charging more. Because we charge more, we signal you'll get more value here. Right Again, doesn't everyone know this? Right? We signal you'll get more value here. Right again, doesn't everyone know this right that, like rolls royce, you pay a lot of money for that vehicle. A second hand bike will also take you to the same place. You see, like we know these things. These things are just present out in the physical world, right, these dynamics.

Austin Church:

But to go back to your question like why do creative people behave the way we do when it comes time to set our prices? For starters, I think we often just don't understand the psychology of it. We understand how fluid the concept of value really is and I think our own insecurity or own money mindset kicks in when it comes time to set our prices. And you know the way I help people kind of get around. That is to find what I call a negative mentor.

Austin Church:

You probably have coached some of your people on this idea, even if you didn't use those words. Find someone who is worse than you, who charges more, and let that motivate you in a way. Maybe that money itself could not. So there are lots of creative people who are not greedy, who don't want to be greedy, who feel conflicted about charging more when they don't have to, and yet they're hurting themselves and their businesses because they're undercharging and their prices aren't commensurate with the value that they create for people. So it's like no wonder we get turned around with this and confused, because there's psychology, there are market dynamics, there's even having a good handle on. Well, how much time is it going to take me to deliver this project? Be so that my immediate needs are covered and I'm moving toward my long-term goals? They're just a lot of considerations and um making the right calls assumes that you're bringing the right confidence to those decisions and um, sometimes our confidence needs a while to catch up with our capability.

Josh Hall:

I would love to help some folks kind of break the money story, especially if it's a negative one. Have you found that there are like categories of money stories where, for example, I feel like I've seen and observed just in my personal life and the folks who are around me locally that there's often money stories of money is hard to get or money is uh, I almost feel like money is dirty in some in some ways like some people don't like to talk about money.

Josh Hall:

It's like, ooh, that's taboo, we don't know, we don't talk about that. Um. But then when I joined the entrepreneurial world, it was like a culture shock to me. It changed me completely. Hanging out with people- who were like yeah, I made like 25 K last month. I was like what, tell me more.

Austin Church:

Like and you're willing to talk about this, but it wasn't like a greedy, like I made 25,000.

Josh Hall:

It was just like, yeah, this is what we did. I personally, I have no problem talking about money. I actually think it's really important, but but not out of like a greedy or boastful type of thing, but just I think people need to know what's possible. And for me personally, when somebody says I grew my business by 20%, I'm like that means nothing to me. I don't know. There's no context of what 20% hard numbers.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, I need like was it like $8,000 or was it, you know, $18,000? I want to know like that kind of stuff. So I'm a detailed person. I was no problem talking about money, but I understand it's not for everybody and that freaks people out. So are there like categories of money, stories like that, or, you know, like money mindset backgrounds?

Austin Church:

So there are, I mean, some people like if you go into the like, there's like financial shame has become a like an area of study for psychologists, which isn't surprising, given that shame motivates so much of human behavior that anything that generates shame or creates shame for us would interest psychologists, right? But there's this one particular study I found it came out in 2010, and it was a father and son their last name is Klontz K-L-O-N-T-Z, and they talked about money belief patterns, and I won't go into it because I geek out over it. I think other people are like my gosh, like why are you doing this to me right now?

Josh Hall:

I'll talk about it. I want to know. I'll send it to you afterwards.

Austin Church:

We can put it in the show notes and they'll be like this team of researchers will be like why did our traffic suddenly spike, right? Um, but two of the belief patterns are money avoidance and money worship, right? So money avoidance I should back up and say they identified 72 like distinct or discrete money-related beliefs, and then they found that these beliefs, to use your word, organized into categories or patterns. There were four patterns. I'll talk about two of them money avoidance and money worship. Money avoidance is interesting. It's like your core belief is that you don't deserve money, or maybe even that money is interesting. It's like your core belief is that you don't deserve money, or maybe even that money's bad, and you don't realize that this is part of your operating system subconsciously. And so if you have a nine to five job and your belief pattern related to money is avoidance, you're not going to ask for a raise and a lot of people with the money avoidance pattern dictating a lot of their behavior end up in debt, which is kind of crazy to think about. That you're like, yeah, I don't save because I don't believe I could or should have money or I believe money is bad, right. Money worship is kind of the opposite, where if you believe that money is going to solve all your problems, then you will make really short-sighted sacrifices in pursuit of money and you'll probably end up with more problems than you had before. You might sacrifice your health, make really short-sighted sacrifices in pursuit of money and you'll probably end up with more problems than you had before. You might sacrifice your health, you sacrifice relationships, you sacrifice your reputation or integrity, right. So there are things that are very, very like, that take a long time to build and are very easy to lose, like a marriage, like your reputation right. But if that core unconscious belief is that if I only have enough money, I will finally be safe, I will finally be respected, I will finally be okay, you're like yeah, that's why you hear about, like certain professionals who are like oh yeah, I was never around, but I was a great breadwinner for my family, like oldest story in the book, right? Like you miss, like you missed the point. Um, so avoidance worship. Those are two of the patterns, right? I think the challenge with the patterns or with the categories is that they are subconscious and it's like a lot of stuff in our subconscious. It's like it's not until you make the subconscious conscious. It's not until you make the invisible visible that you can really begin to work on this stuff.

Austin Church:

And, as I mentioned before, a lot of us make it to adulthood without ever having put our beliefs about money on the table and examine them one by one and said well, is that true, partly true, is there a different story that is equally true, that is more empowering, that I could tell. I'll give you one very quick example. I was less than 10. I don't remember exactly how old and I was listening to my parents have a conversation and my parents are wonderful people. So it just goes to show that, no matter what home you grew up in, you know your parents probably had some mistaken beliefs about money, right? Anyway, I overhear this conversation and you know there's a 50, 50 chance that how I remember this conversation is not how it happened at all. That actually doesn't matter. Um, I hear them talking and they're talking about some close family friends and I know the family they're talking about and they say we could live on the money that they waste every year.

Austin Church:

So, being a kid, I was not sophisticated or discerning enough, discriminating enough, to be able to sort of decouple what they're saying from my own observations and say, okay, well, that's just their opinion, that's not a fact. As kids, we just take it all in and there's no sort of filtering process, right? So I just take it all in. And what comes as a result of that impression? Well, I have this half-baked belief that wealthy people are wasteful, which may not have even been true of these family friends. It was my parents' opinion, it was their perspective, and it's not even fair to say it was the right one, because it's like there are two sides to every story, right? So I use that example a lot, because we all make it into adulthood having these memories, these impressions, these experiences that we have never revisited and said, well, that was just my parents' opinion.

Austin Church:

Can I find counterexamples that are equally or more true or more common? Right? Can you find a wealthy family or a wealthy person is wasteful? Sure, you can also find wealthy people who are frugal, which is how they became wealthy in the first place? Yeah, by underspending, right? So I think step one for creatives, and really for everybody, is pull out your journal and ask yourself what are my earliest memories? About money and conversations about money. And here's the weird thing you typically only remember things that became a part of a belief. That became a part of a belief Like. The reason I remember that overheard conversation is because it became the stuff, some of the raw material, in one of my beliefs about money. That's the because. How many other conversations did I overhear that I can't recall.

Josh Hall:

Is that so terrifying. As a parent, I'm like, oh my gosh, we got to be so careful.

Austin Church:

What am I doing? What am I doing to my kids?

Josh Hall:

They probably didn't even think about that. But then who knew? You know, years later you're still thinking about that. It was a huge part to your money story and the way you work through. I feel like.

Josh Hall:

What's interesting too is I feel like the internet changed everything, with particularly money mindset, because I imagine unless you were somebody who went to the library and read entrepreneurial books or business books, you're not going to get much different money input than the folks who are around you. So let's just look at the 20th century. Folks growing up in 1900s are probably only getting the money story and the money mindset of a family, friends, very small, insular in a class society. Even early. Us like you're generally like the. The poor folks are not going to hang out with the rich folks too often, so they're not, and they're not certainly no way in hell they're going to talk about money. So I feel like everything changed with the internet, with this idea of being able to step into a new money story just by getting exposed to these conversations, whereas I feel, like in previous generations, again, unless you're going to take the Napoleon Hill approach and just surround yourself with different people, most people are not going to do that.

Josh Hall:

So I feel like we're still kind of a new territory with this whole money mindset shift and money mindset change.

Austin Church:

I think the idea of talking openly about it is still a fairly new idea, right, yeah, well, especially I mean it may depend on the family.

Josh Hall:

I come from an Italian family so they all just bitch and moan about money, but it's usually the bitch and moan. It's not like I'm so excited about this new business venture, or certainly not what you make. It's interesting that if I say I made like twenty eight thousand dollars this month from my web design community, some people would be like oh, that's icky, but if I'm like man, I had to spend freaking thousand dollars on my golden retriever for this, for this vet care that she got.

Josh Hall:

We can talk about that, but I I can't talk about what I made. But I can sure as hell talk about what I spent and it's not an issue. So that's the whole thing.

Austin Church:

It's so funny that you're right, it's more socially acceptable to complain than to share what some people would consider sensitive or icky information in an attempt to inspire, right, but I will. I do want to say you brought something up right, which is you know how we started out by talking that, talking about money as emotional. The other thing that happens as kids is like, again, we don't, we only know like the shape or the form of conversations that are happening. We don't know the content, right. And again, I'm not even putting this on my parents, I'm not saying that's how they felt, but what I overhear is a little bit of envy related to the fact that these friends even have money to waste. They're not living so close to the line every month, right. So we take into adulthood the shape or the emotional outline of money, anxiety or fear or embarrassment.

Austin Church:

And it is really helpful to actually talk to other creatives, not necessarily people with nine to five jobs, because they're sort of matrix. Their relationship with money is often very different. A lot of especially freelance creatives do have a higher risk tolerance, but anyway, it's really helpful to talk to other people. If you're a web designer, web developer, talk to other web developers and just say what do you believe about money, and what you'll find is that people who are in your same discipline or practice your same craft will have widely divergent stories, beliefs, and that can be incredibly helpful, being like oh, I talked to Josh. Why is it that Josh is able to openly talk about money and I'm not?

Josh Hall:

openly talk about money and I'm not. Can I double click into that too, because I think that's so important as an entrepreneur and as a as a web business owner, like my audience, I think I've I've had conversations with them about this where they suddenly don't feel not like a part of their family, but they, their conversations, change, and I should. I should go back and say like I'm not at a family function boasting about how much I made this month.

Austin Church:

But I'm just saying To be clear. To be clear, I'm not doing that.

Josh Hall:

But I'm just saying. Anytime I do talk about making money or something, it's just so much more common that my family, from my experience, complains about money or talks about what you spent but not what you make. But there are no entrepreneurs in my family, no business owners in my family. So I love having a monthly mastermind group where me and a couple of colleagues you know Shannon Mattern, you were on her podcast, she's in there we every month we literally say exactly to the dime what we made that month and I love that.

Josh Hall:

That's so helpful for me, because when I go to a family function I'm actually like a whole different person, cause I just don't know what to say sometimes when they're talking about like it's it is. It's a completely different mindset, you're totally right. So it's actually a good like. It's a good reminder for me as an entrepreneur that salary workers and nine to five people do not have the same mindset with money, because by nature they are capped unless they have a side hustle.

Josh Hall:

they can't go and make more money and shoot for a better month because they're making $8,000 that month or whatever it is in their salary position. So it's a great reminder. I kind of needed that sometimes because sometimes I get frustrated. But I realized my frame of reference, especially with money now is very different from most people probably in corporate America especially.

Austin Church:

And my guess is you kind of had to claw for a better paradigm, you had to intentionally upgrade some of your beliefs.

Josh Hall:

I know I have.

Austin Church:

Yeah, I can look back and see how anxiety and scarcity mindset drove a lot of my early decisions. Meanwhile I had ambition and I was raising my prices and eventually you kind of realize like, oh, I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to this sort of thing.

Josh Hall:

And that's it when it comes to pricing your services. This is what I knew we were going to get to here at some point, because I feel like, especially for web designers, web business owners, agency owners, if we take our money story into our business, what I've noticed is that you either still view money as scarce and you're really anxious about it, and you're only going to do the bare minimum, of course. I mean, I remember so vividly the first time I put like $1,000 on an invoice. I was like holy crap, a grand $1,000. I'm nervous. I'm like sweating. Typing that in this is wild.

Josh Hall:

Now $10,000 is the minimum I would even think about for a project, so it's so different. But what I've realized in myself and I don't think I'm uncommon to a lot of other people is my money story was that I almost, I guess, as I'm thinking about it, as this is kind of a half therapy session I did kind of feel like I grew my business to just what I needed. I knew what I needed to basically survive and have a little bit more. But over the past few years I've really thought about plenty, but not as in a greedy way, but like just cushion, and value and the amount of work Optionality.

Josh Hall:

Optionality, that's a good term. Yeah, absolutely In my frame of money. It's case in point. A quick story on how my money mindset has changed and just completely gone away from from my family.

Josh Hall:

A couple of Christmases ago we were talking about Lord of the Rings, because my brother's like a diehard Lord of the Rings fan Uh, I'm moderate but not diehard and we were talking about the sets in in the Shire, the big tree that I think is above Bilbo's. Are you a Lord of the Rings guy? Oh, yeah. So the big tree in New Zealand that is over his little hut, his little hobbit home, was not a natural tree. They actually chopped down a tree, kept it alive and moved it and planted it and rebuilt it, and they were talking about how it was.

Josh Hall:

I don't even know how we got onto this At Christmas. I don't know how we got here, but it was like a hundred and it was like a hundred thousand dollars to move this tree. So my mom and my brother were both like I can't believe they spent a hundred thousand dollars and just wasted that much money to bring this tree over. But my first thought was and I've voiced this, it was one of the first times I think they were like oh wow, that's cheaper than I expected.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, actually yeah, I mean I don't know how far the tree was away. It probably wasn't too far, but regardless, it was still a six-figure project to move that tree. But and I don't know what the currency difference is there but I said, well, yeah, they spent, probably went to the local economy. It probably went to some workers who had not done that or don't do it often. It was probably a huge boost, especially if they're working in USD. It may have been like a great economic situation for the local workers to do that and maybe they were able to provide for their family a little bit longer. Like there are actually probably a lot of benefits because that money wasn't just thrown into the air. It was actually used to help people to do that job.

Austin Church:

Invested on the ground, invested Literally.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, on the ground, yeah. So I said that and they were like oh wow, I didn't really think about it like that In that line. I didn't really think about it like that. I feel like that just sums up everyone's money story, or money shift, into thinking about how money is different with a different lens to thinking about how money is different with a different lens.

Austin Church:

So I do an exercise from time to time with coaching clients, sometimes in workshops, where I just ask people to write down some of their dreams, which is uncomfortable because a lot of us, when we reach adulthood, learn to be pragmatic and we just don't think about those dreams as often. It's an interesting exercise, though, for creative people specifically, because a lot of the things that they would do with extra money are actually for other people. I don't know very many people who are like yeah, I want a collection of Italian, vintage Italian sports cars. You know, the things that I hear about are like I'd love for my husband to quit his dead end job. I'd love to put my kids in a better school. One of them was I'd love to take my grandmother to visit her sister in Japan, who she has not seen in person in 20 years.

Austin Church:

We're talking about beautiful stuff Like, yeah, that's what money should be spent on. Hey, like I love this organization that helps people get out of sex trafficking. Hey, I want to give money to my church. Hey, I'd love to invest in my local park. Like, creative people generally have really beautiful dreams often that benefit others, and so it's important to know what the stakes are. When you think about okay, well, I want to make more money, it's like you're not just sort of like reinforcing your own greed or building your own private empire. Some capitalists, I get it, that's what they want. It's like if that's what you want, you would not be in design or writing.

Austin Church:

Like you know you'd be in like on wall street or something, right yeah.

Josh Hall:

That's a good point. I don't know how many, too many like hard capitalist web designers. That's true, that's right, they're usually like agency owners who build something to try to sell in a year or two.

Austin Church:

And that's fine too, right, but it's like when you think about what more money really means, it usually means more impact, and so that's. I sometimes need to take people to that headspace first and then say now let's talk about your approach to pricing and your self-sabotage and your ambivalence about money. I get that money is used to do a lot of bad things. I get that the pursuit of money motivates people to do some bad things, but you just said that if you had more money, you know you would plant flowers in your neighborhood, like, come on, that benefits your entire community. That's a great point.

Josh Hall:

I think it's a good, solid exercise to to just imagine and make a plan, write it out or put it in a document or something, where you write a plan out of what you would do with a certain amount of extra money. I love that idea. I'm definitely going to as I'm getting ready right now currently to to vision cast for 2025 and beyond I'm going to take that to heart and really look at like. Like I have a goal. I have, I'll just say it I have a half million dollar goal to take Web Presenter Pro to half million in 2025. So the question would be why? Why half million? Because I could also say, like, my goal is seven figures.

Josh Hall:

I think it's really common to say I want to go for six figures or I want to go for seven figures, but there is a very, very interesting middle between a hundred thousand and a million. That is kind of what I serve. Uh, I have a lot of students who are getting the six figures. We've had some get to two, three. One student get past 500 this year. They're kind of this interesting middle of six figures and I think once you get to that point, once you cover your needs and once you cover your business needs, then the question is, to your point, austin, what will you do with the rest? So I think having a plan for that, I really love that idea. I'm going to take that to heart and really look at like what is the actual deliverable line item plan for the extra income there, the extra revenue, what I want to invest in family or business, if you have an emotional connection with your plan, you will be more effective at implementing it than if you don't.

Austin Church:

So that's why I think it's more helpful for a lot of creatives freelancers to actually think about a number like $25,000 extra. In your case it's like 500k instead of a million. Um it, because your emotional connection to 500k just might be stronger. Right, also want to um.

Austin Church:

I hear pushback on a regular basis about six figures, about a hundred,000 as a milestone or as a goal, and I want to push back on the naysayers because you can go back to the study in 2010 and it's looking at happiness and they figured out, right that like $60,000 to $70,000 was the baseline for when you're able to take care of your basic needs and you have just enough margin on top of that to live a decent life. Right. But when you factor in 14 years worth of inflation, what is the new number that corresponds to that life satisfaction metric that came out of research? Daniel Kahneman, who won the Nobel Prize, is one of the researchers on this project. I think it came out of Princeton. Anyway, $100,000 is not an arbitrary number If you live in a developed nation and you live in a larger metropolitan area and with the housing market being the way it is and health insurance costs being the way they are, a hundred thousand dollars doesn't mean being rich. A hundred thousand dollars means living a decent life yeah, it means being stable.

Austin Church:

Yeah, like, yeah, just barely depending, depending, so so for people who end up watching or listening to this later, who have been made to feel less than because they said well, I want to make $100,000. The research says that's not arbitrary. The research says, yeah, if you live in a country like the US, $100,000 is kind of the new baseline, especially if you have children, especially if you need healthcare right, especially if you ever want to afford a house. So I've actually heard.

Josh Hall:

What's your take on this? I've heard that 250 is the new a hundred K as far as six figures.

Austin Church:

I think, again, money means options and so 250,000 a year means that you're going to have assuming that you still have a fairly modest lifestyle, maybe with some luxuries, like we send our kids to a private school. I recognize that tuition payments are a luxury, Right. I think there's some truth in that that 250 K based on what has happened with inflation Right, and like let's say you're a recent college grad coming out of school with $200,000 worth of loans, or 150 or a hundred or whatever, like what would you need to be making sooner rather than later to not still be paying off your loans 18 years from now? But again, money is kind of beside the point. It's about what do you want your life to look like and what's important to you.

Austin Church:

And certain things just cost money.

Josh Hall:

And this is what's so tricky about money too is it is different as far as a need base, depending on where you are, of course. Like um, you know I'm in Columbus, ohio, which is kind of upper middle of what you need. Like we're sort of really good housing market in the way of like what we're paying for. Our five level split big home would probably be half of what we would pay in some bigger cities Chicago or God forbid, new York or LA. I mean, my gosh, I've got family in New York and they're paying nearly as much as we are for like a thousand for a square foot home and we're ours for a thousand, like it's. It's just so different. Um, gal who cuts my hair, good good family friend of ours. She was just saying they have family in West Virginia and they were like my gosh, we could get literally like acres and acres of land in West Virginia for a half a million dollars and build a ranch, but the trade off is you're not around a city and healthcare and everything else.

Josh Hall:

So yeah, there, it is just interesting and that's. I do think that's one thing that's tough about sometimes money, if you're thinking about money physically around you, um. But I mean, that was one cool thing about having clients all over. I remember I had some clients in LA that were like, oh yeah, sounds good, let's go, whereas some of the people blue collar folks in Columbus may have been like oh, 5,000. I don't know.

Austin Church:

Well, I was talking, I had lunch with one of my local coaching clients yesterday and he said and he's a web designer. And he said, yeah, I'm in Knoxville, which is not as big as Columbus but still sort of mid-market city, right. Anyway, he was saying well, the clients that have had no problem and it's just an easy yes to the budget I put in front of them. I was like, let's talk about cities. The two main ones were Austin, texas and New York City and I'm like and then what about the local clients? It was like, oh yeah, it was a harder sell to get the Knoxville client to too. So one of the reasons I think, um, freelancers struggle to raise their prices is they're still thinking hyperlocal and they don't have a web presence. They don't have a reliable way to get other clients online, and that's okay. But sometimes that constrains your thinking too. You think that everybody will bulk at a high price just because your local clients have, when in fact other clients may actually think your prices are too low.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, Some clients bulk because it's too low. They're like Ooh, really, that's it. Is he any good? And you're like this is the most. It's too low, they're like oh, really, that's it.

Austin Church:

Is he any good? And you're like this is the most I've ever charged. I've got so many stories along those lines.

Josh Hall:

It's a great point. I do think there's, and I would say there's probably a time and a place to have pricing that may be beneficial locally but at the same time I would try to find a happy medium locally but at the same time I would try to find a happy medium. That was my rule of thumb is I knew I was going to price out some local businesses in the way of like. So I'm outside of Columbus, our suburb is where, yes, some of my pricing would be a little much for probably local businesses here, but in downtown Columbus or some of the different suburbs in Columbus it would be fine. So I do feel like my general rule of thumb for that is to have a bit of a happy medium. Be on the upper end of a local place if you are in something that is a little more lower or mid-market, but then also have pricing that is suitable for bigger clients or just have ranges that you can service each one of those in.

Austin Church:

It's strategic. When you give someone a quote to come in high, it is always more beneficial to be perceived as expensive and then have them be like, well, we don't have that kind of budget. And then you say, well, what would you like to remove from the scope? So it's much easier to down, adjust scope to fit the budget they do have and you get to keep your strong positioning as the expensive option. That's easier and more beneficial long term than coming in with a price that's too low and taking the positioning that that gets you, which is not beneficial, but then later trying to reposition yourself in people's minds as a premium option. That's just hard.

Austin Church:

In fact, a lot of my coaching clients, when they go through the exercises to come up with their survival rate and dream rate which is what the first part of my book is about realize, like I don't have a single client that would willingly pay me the project price that I would calculate using my dream rate. And they have that moment where, like they're like wow, I need all new clients, right? So if people are freaking out about, I just am not sure my confidence will let me charge much higher prices. Right now I'm like it's super easy Raise your prices by 10 or 20% and then, once you sell a price at 10 or 20% more, guess what your confidence will increase by 10 or 20%. And then, once you sell a price at 10 or 20% more, guess what your confidence will increase by 10 or 20%. And then you do it again, and then you do it again. So some people they have that kind of demeanor that makes allows them to just take those big leaps and kind of not care Come what may.

Austin Church:

I was not that person. I'm like 10% gains, 15% gains that's what was sustainable for me.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, and one thing I've taught I've talked about a lot in the podcast. One thing I teach my members in Web Designer Pro is to have a top end offer, even if it's just for like 1% of your clients or for one client who wants a $10,000 package. Like, if somebody is like, ooh, I prefer 2000 for a website, I'll tell them often like, have a $10,000 option just for the one client who wants you to be a big part of their business. If most of them stay at two, three, four or five, cool, all good, as long as it's profitable and as long as you're not killing yourself with time and making $2 an hour, then cool. But that one $10,000 project, as you well, very rightly pointed out, there is a perception of like oh okay, well, what can you do for that? And I love that idea of like starting high and then chipping away at the scope versus, well, let's just do it cheaper. It's like no, the same thing isn't going to be done cheaper, but we can remove things to have a phased approach.

Austin Church:

Yeah, and I think that's a bit of a mindset shift for a lot of us who are so accustomed to getting pushback on price. We don't realize that being expensive puts you in a stronger strategic position. You have more options in terms of how you Because what if you, if you, come in with your like with a low price that you already don't feel great about, and then they push back on that you know. But to your point about always including an expensive option, that same web designer who I mentioned that I had lunch with yesterday again, he's my coaching client, so I've had a front row seat on a lot of his wins.

Austin Church:

It's like are your proposals upselling for you? Because he will start conversations with his entry level offer but then, as the sales process progresses and maybe he gets a yes on the $5,000 website and then he sends the proposal and then his proposal contains the $15,000 option. People are like, oh cool, I didn. He texts me and he's like I just had somebody. You know, I just had a client upsell herself from five to 10 and pay me in full up front. He's like what is happening?

Josh Hall:

The exact same thing happened to one of my members recently. Yeah, Uh, and that works too. Yeah, I mean, I think the reality is it all works to some degree. I mean, I've seen every possible web design proposal work in some way. You start high, then go lower. You start low, then use add-ons to go high.

Josh Hall:

I like ranges and again it kind of depends on what a web designer is doing, what the scope looks like, all the things that are included. But I've really enjoyed the range approach is what worked to me to have a lower offer. If I think they're a good client, I want to focus on ongoing recurring revenue to start them low. But if it's more of a one-off big project, I have that option too. So it definitely all works. What's fascinating about that is, I feel like you just have to know your revenue goal as a business, which should include what you need to take home as a family, what you need to take home for your business, for expenses, team taxes, subscriptions, everything else and then this lovely P word that most people neglect called profit, which is what we actually use to move forward with everything move forward with your business.

Josh Hall:

So I think, as long as you have that, you can structure it really whatever, whatever way you choose, and it can always change over time. But, um, this is cool because it just goes to show that example of your, of your, uh, coaching client there it's like it works that way too. Um, to be able to have an upsell options. Um, but again, it's like I think a lot of people I mean it's why so many industries have upsell Upsell is the word. I mean that's why was it McDonald's or Wendy's who had the biggie? Do you want to biggie size that Supersize?

Austin Church:

it Supersize it. Was that McDonald's or was that Wendy's? That was McDonald's. I think Wendy's was biggie size.

Josh Hall:

Biggie size was Wendy's. Yeah, they're always on the coattail of McDonald's.

Austin Church:

Poor Wendy's.

Josh Hall:

Or Wendy's. I know they're struggling, but, yeah, supersize. Do you want to supersize that? I mean, if you work with a contractor, nearly every industry gives you an option. Do you want to do more? This past year we had some lawn services done because we had a grub infestation in our yard and I asked about a quote for grub treatment. And then, guess what, would you also like our fall aeration? And this, uh, you get a discount. Why not? All right. And guess what? After they did that, they gave us a whole quote for a whole year. It was like four X when I originally paid them, but this is the plan for the whole thing. So I almost feel like web designers.

Austin Church:

I just got up.

Josh Hall:

So I'm like God, god, it's actually a good deal.

Austin Church:

So, like I think, web designers honestly need to start treating their businesses more like a landscaper contractor.

Josh Hall:

Pest control yeah, yeah, you know like a business.

Austin Church:

Yeah, yeah, I want to go back to one thing you said, because I think it is maybe the most important thing we will talk about.

Josh Hall:

Right, the shire.

Austin Church:

The shire and the tree, the tree transplant. Speaking of you know landscape services, right Tree transplants If one of your kids needed a really unusual medicine, you know preaching to the choir here, man.

Austin Church:

Well, yeah, I have three too. Right, it's like you would do whatever it took to get that medicine. Um, because you'd say, like I have to, right. I think the reason pricing is so difficult for a lot of us is because we actually don't have clarity on some of those numbers that you talked about. What is my revenue target in order for me to have this take home income, and is there a difference? Is there a profit margin in there somewhere?

Austin Church:

If you don't know that, then you don't know what you have to make. And if you don't have that clarity on what I have to make this, you will end up making concessions and compromises when a client pushes back on price because you weren't confident in your prices to begin with price because you weren't confident in your prices to begin with. So it's like the two things that you have to know are and I call the first one the survival rate, because it is based on hey, what do I need to make this year in order to not go into debt? How many real available hours can I even charge for? Not how many can I work, but how many can I charge for and therefore, what is my survival rate? I cannot go in terms of my effective hourly rate. Whether you charge hourly or you charge flat project fees, you're like my effective hourly rate cannot go below this or I'm digging myself into a hole across a year. You have to know that survival number so that when a client says, well, I'm willing to pay X amount, and you do the quick math and you ballpark how many hours it's going to take you and you realize what they're willing to pay takes you below your survival number. Guess what? You can very confidently say no. You don't try to talk yourself into a bad situation because you have the clarity and the confidence to say I'd really like to work with you, but there's no way I can make that number work for my family's financial needs. Maybe we'll have a chance to work together on a project in the future. Right, we say yes to the wrong projects because we don't know what we have to have.

Austin Church:

Meanwhile, your dream number is hey, here's my survival rate or survival number. What would I really like to make next year on top of that? And cool if I turn my like dream number into a dream rate and I use the dream rate to calculate project prices, if I start winning projects at that price, calculated with my dream rate, every single project represents a definitive step forward. So not only am I paying my immediate, covering my immediate needs, I'm also making definitive progress toward my long-term financial and lifestyle goals. And so it's like, if you're listening and you're like I'm just not confident in my prices, I'm like go figure out your survival number and survival rate. Go figure out your dream number and dream rate and then start using your dream rate to calculate project prices and guess what? You will be so much better at negotiation because you'll know what you have to have.

Josh Hall:

And there's something about putting that out there in the universe. We talk about this in my community almost every week. I'm telling you the members not just you, austin, everyone listening the members who put a goal out there, whether they share it to the community or whether it's with me or whether it's private if you have a financial goal, it's amazing what that will dictate. It's weird, isn't it weird? Literally Okay, so I got a financial goal. It's amazing what that will dictate.

Austin Church:

It's weird, isn't it?

Josh Hall:

weird, literally Okay. So I got to shout out Ben, one of our members who just went full time here Earlier this year. Corporate guy works in research and medicine and he had a goal of getting his first paid client by the end of March in 2024. And he put it out there. He had worked a couple months to learn web design get everything up there, and he put it out there. He had worked a couple months to learn web design get everything up there, and he put it out there. It was literally the last day of March that his first project was signed. It almost sounds like I'm making it up, but it's 100% true. We can go back to the post and pro. There is something about putting a goal out there and I really love this idea, austin, of having a survival rate and a dream rate. I'm absolutely going to rip that off and give you full credit. I love that idea.

Austin Church:

Well, I mean, it's all in the book, right? I realized my entire process for calculating prices was flawed because I was overestimating the number of hours I could work. I was overestimating the number of hours I could bill. I was overestimating the number of hours I could bill for and, most importantly, the point I just made I didn't know what I had to make, so I kept talking myself into low paying projects which consumed my available time inventory, so I no longer had that time to turn around and sell at a higher rate. But it's called confirmation bias. You see what you expect to see. I've written about this at length. You can make it work in your favor. If you set a goal, you start to filter everything you see for the opportunities that align with that goal.

Austin Church:

So like go study up on confirmation bias, you'll be like oh, this is a big reason we set goals, not because we'll tip them or not, because they're always realistic, but because we need to kind of trick our minds into seeing the opportunities that align with those goals.

Josh Hall:

Can we take a few minutes for me to selfishly get some coaching on this, and I hope this is helpful for everybody. But the dream rate thing is fascinating because I share with you my goal, my rate for my goal for 2025, which is modest in the way of like it's very, very achievable with where we're at now. In trajectory that I'm on, I've had some colleagues and even a prior coach say, like, why aren't you shooting for seven figures? You should definitely be like with your profile online, you should be at seven figures annually and I love that idea. I would love to get there. But I don't feel right about setting that as my dream goal right now and I want you all to help me pinpoint as to why.

Josh Hall:

Personally, I have no problem with making that amount of money I would. I would love to get there eventually. My thought is there's no ickiness to that. I maybe it's well for one. I have not planned out what would I do with a million dollars a year, I don't know. So that's probably step one, I would imagine. But the other thing is I'm just terrified of time. I'm. I'm terrified of not terrified, but I'm very leery because I'm such a work from home, balanced kind of guy. My family, I have a daughter with special needs. I take her to every appointment every week. We do a lot, so I'm very, very hesitant to have money goals that take away from my time goals. I guess that's kind of where I'm at. Does that make?

Austin Church:

sense, it makes total sense. I think that seven figures is an exciting milestone, but for entrepreneurs who are optimizing for lifestyle, it's also an arbitrary milestone, like kind of like we talked about earlier. Once you're at 100k, you're like well, I can afford healthcare and I can afford housing, so kind of once your basic needs are met. Anything above that, the earning of it may actually come with a trade-off in terms of lifestyle. That's it.

Josh Hall:

You totally just made it clear for me, because 500 is not at all a trade-off of lifestyle.

Austin Church:

It doesn't involve the trade-off.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, With the setup now I could absolutely get to 500 scale, but without redo, without killing me on time. That's why I had a colleague say like why don't you have like a $15,000 like coaching option or something for me? Because I don't want to destroy my time. I'm so protective of that. I got enough going on. I can't imagine having a high end offer that takes up more time than I don't have right now.

Austin Church:

Yeah, and you also think, okay, if I went from 500 to a million and I've effectively doubled revenue, I would probably need to hire more team members. And yes, they could do any number of things. But as soon as you have more people on a team, you have more dynamics. So it's not just Josh's relationship with a team member three that you have to manage, you also have to manage team members, team member three's relationship with team member two and team member one. So you know, like complexity kind of becomes fractal or exponential at that point.

Austin Church:

So I do think for a lot of us there's a sweet spot. It's why there is such a phrase as lifestyle business. There's a sweet spot in terms of what is my current stress level, what is my current income level, what kind of optionality do I have with lifestyle? And it's almost like a mixer, like if you were doing audio engineering. You're like well, sometimes I push up revenue, that slider, then it automatically takes stress up with it, then it automatically takes stress up with it and then the lifestyle goes down.

Austin Church:

So I would kind of trust your gut and say, if you set a goal of 500 and you believe you can get there without too many trade-offs with lifestyle or time affluence. It may be that your subconscious is doing some very complicated calculus underneath the surface for you and saying 500 seems reasonable without the trade-offs. Those trade-offs would definitely come with 750. And then ooh at a million, like the complexity would just create a ton of stress. Yeah Right, it's really important for me from time to time to take a step back and say is anything wrong with what I've got right now? And often the answer is like no, like there's nothing wrong. Yes, more money means more options, but those options may come with a cargo of extra stress too.

Josh Hall:

So that's great. That helps. That clarifies that so much more for me. Yeah, cause uh and I've always been big on not worrying about what other people say or recommend but I can't help it.

Josh Hall:

You know, when people say that they're like surprised that you're not doing this, I'm like, well, yeah, what am I doing? Should I be at that level? Inevitably I plant some seeds of like. Maybe I am like severely undercharging myself. But I've also realized with my business model, particularly Web Designer Pro. Now I have a tiered community where the top level, the most expensive option at $200 a month currently is time intensive, so I can only do so much of that, but that's the biggest moneymaker part right now. The lower down tier of the community is like semi-time intensive. And then I have a courses tier where folks get access to all my courses, all the information they need. That's very scalable. However, I know that if I scale that at a huge level, that's going to come with more support questions and I'm going to need to hire more time for support and have a really good system. That I'm not, you know, I don't have hands on that.

Austin Church:

So it's exciting, I think you have a design constraint when you are ready to get to a million. The design constraint is I want my current time commitments and stress levels to stay consistent. Therefore, the only growth strategies I will consider must be ones that do not make withdrawals on my time or make contributions to my stress. Because those growth strategies and tactics exist. They're out there. You would just need to use that design constraint to narrow the field so that you're not like well, hey, I'm going to build a team of 10 people. Great, now you're spending just as much time managing your team as you ever spend managing your community. Right, so you can get to a million, most likely while maintaining your lifestyle, stress level, time affluence. It's just going to require a different design.

Josh Hall:

Yeah no, that's a great great way to frame that. Yeah no, that's a great great way to frame that. Yeah no, I really liked that and and I literally mapped out my business with the current model, with the tiers, and said, like here's what it would take to get to 500. I'm like that's very doable. That's why I feel good. That's why, like, 500 just feels good right now, with where I'm at and and the trajectory we're on. Um seven.

Josh Hall:

50 feels like we could get there, but I know that's gonna that's going to take some changes, like it might hurt a little bit, might have some scars to show for sacrifices I'm just not willing to make with having young kids and being present and everything else. But at the same time, I also have learned to have bigger goals and bigger dreams. And, um, I'll just be completely honest, we had to get new health insurance because our rate doubled in 2023. And we just could not swing it. I had a couple downturn years. 2022 and 2023 were actually down for me for a lot of reasons.

Josh Hall:

I just posted an episode about that, what I learned from that and why it happened. Some of the decisions that caused a downturn in the short term were the best decisions for long term with my monthly recurring revenue now. But when I went through, when we got that health insurance chart I mean it was doubled, it was almost as much as our mortgage. I was like with my daughter and stuff, I was like we just cannot swing this right now and that planted a seed in me of I never want to have that happen again, like I never want to be in a place where the needs of my family and our standard of living now is compromised by what we have coming in. So since that time, coincidence or not, all numbers have gone up and to the right, but uh, that was a biggie.

Austin Church:

It's focusing right, like that's um I this is a dumb joke, but I say the best way to clean the house is to invite people over for dinner. Yeah, yeah, like I have been the most focused when I was, in certain respects, the most desperate right, and so I'm not recommending that anybody be desperate when you don't have to. It's scary, it's anxiety producing, but there's something advocating for other people's needs and being primary breadwinner can be incredibly focusing yeah, there's assuming you have protocols in place for managing your head trash and mindset.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, and there's definitely the parent effect is real Joke about that often with folks I see who are entrepreneurs, who become parents and then suddenly all of their money mindset trash sometimes is thrown right out the window when they're like well, now I need to make this so $5,000.

Austin Church:

the window when they're like well, now I need to make this, so $5,000. Yeah, 2013,. My wife gives me this gift bag with tissue paper and there's this little tissue wrapped bundle on top and I unwrap it and it is a pregnancy test. And I don't know if it was that day after I found out she was pregnant with our first child, or the next day, but within a very short period of time I thought I do not want to welcome a child into this financial climate and I kind of grew up. I'm like other people who are less intelligent than me have raised their financial literacy. I've already done harder things, I just haven't committed to raising my financial literacy. I'm making that commitment now because it freaks me out to put my child at certain disadvantages because her dad would not sort of buckle down and learn something hard. So I did.

Josh Hall:

Yeah.

Austin Church:

That's awesome.

Josh Hall:

Financial literacy. That's a good term too when it comes to thinking about raising kids in an environment.

Austin Church:

You have to have it in order to pass it on.

Josh Hall:

That's good. Well, Austin, this has been awesome man, I appreciate it. Half coaching, half therapy, fasting. I know it's going to help a lot of people. One final question for you, but before we get to that, where would you like folks to go? You got a book on money. Where would you like folks to go after this?

Austin Church:

Yeah, yeah, go to my website, freelance cakecom, and if you click on book, um, the book is called free money and the whole idea is you have been leaving money on the table with your pricing. If you raise your pricing, you get free money. Imagine that, um, and then I'm on LinkedIn a lot. So if you want to follow along on my musings and advice about marketing, sales and systems for freelancers, that's where I'm at.

Josh Hall:

Awesome. Make sure we have all that linked in the show notes. I told you before we hit record, my ISEO guru specialist Michelle, was raving about your book and it was funny because she was like this guy's book is awesome, you should think about having him on your podcast. He was on Shannon's recently. I was like funny wouldn't you know we're chatting this week.

Josh Hall:

So great minds, but yeah, awesome, this has been awesome, man. My final question for you here is is there like an activity or an exercise that can help somebody break from their money story, especially if it's a negative one, from their past or from their upbringing?

Austin Church:

So I have got a bunch of journaling questions and, if you will remind me after we wrap up, I'll make sure there's a link to those. Oh, I'll make sure there's a link to those. I really do think that this work is work. You have to start now and, even though I think it's easier and faster in a community of people because you can find other mentors like co-mentors, peers right, there's also a lot of progress you can make by saying what are my impressions or memories about money, of money from childhood and a lot. You can get really far just journaling all that out and you'll be like, wow, it was always tinged with anxiety. No wonder I'm anxious about money. That's what I grew up with. So, journal about your money story and you will have some aha moments.

Josh Hall:

Can you? I want to do that, like now, so I would love to get that link.

Austin Church:

Josh is like I've set this big goal, yeah.

Josh Hall:

I will not forget to remind you, because I can't wait to go through that. I'll make sure we have that link in the show notes as well. I will not forget to remind you, because I can't wait to go through that. I'll make sure we have that link in the show notes as well. So yeah, is that like a free lead generator you have, or something? Cause that sounds like a killer.

Austin Church:

Um, I give it away as a part of the resources that go with the book. Okay, I think I may have a landing page for it. I'll, I'll dig it up. I'll send that over. I'll send that over.

Josh Hall:

I'll make sure we have it in the, in the show show notes and by the time everyone hears this, all I've already gone through it. So pump man. Well, austin, thank you so much for your time, for your guidance, great wisdom on this. I love talking money mindset. So, yeah, definitely not the last time, and I know we have some other stuff in the works in the future. So appreciate you, man, it was a blast. Thank you.

Josh Hall:

Links that we mentioned are going to be over at joshhallco, slash 362. And again, I highly recommend that you check out his book Free Money. It's on my reading list here in Q1 for 2025. I was highly recommended by some close colleagues of mine. So, and I think this conversation, if this didn't get you pumped to start thinking about your money story and your money mindset and being grateful or disappointed by your parents or your upbringing I don't know what will I really hope this helped. And again, the reason I wanted to have this conversation I know money is an icky topic for some, but the reality is, if you are going to run a successful business, you need to be comfortable with money and you need to know how to sell and feel confident with selling. And if you're feeling weird about money. It's going to affect your sales, so I really hope this helped. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Josh Hall:

Josh hallco slash three, six, two and if you want to connect with Austin freelance, cakecom is his website. There'll be a link to his book. There again, free money a guide to pricing your services so you can unlock a better lifestyle. Hell yeah, I don't have a sound effect for money, but maybe I'll get that one in the next one. All right, friends, stay subscribed. If you haven't subscribed, be sure to, because we've got some incredible episodes coming up after this one as well. I mean, q1 of 2025 is just a banger, so I'm pumped. I hope you're pumped as well. Cheers, friends, and I really truly hope this helps your business. Share your thoughts with me over at joshhall.