363 - Scaling A Web Design Business (from owner and contractor point of view) with Sandy Burns and Alexis Myers

Many web designers don’t want to scale. I get it - because I had that mindset too. I never wanted to be an agency with overhead, payroll, extra stress from managing people, etc.

But the good news is, especially nowadays, you can scale a web design business your way. In a low-stress, low-pressure way that works for you no matter where your business is in revenue and profitability.

Sandy Burns, a founding member of my community Web Designer Pro is a perfect example of this. She was on the podcast recently sharing her story of passing 10 years in business and how she (reluctantly) HAD to scale because she had become so overwhelmed with projects.

We got to hear from her perspective what it was like to scale and how the timing couldn’t have been more crucial because shortly after she began to scale and reduce her workload, she was diagnosed with cancer and immediately began a journey of chemo and cancer treatment.

That’s one angle of Sandy’s story but another one is the other side of her scaling journey. Who did she hire? What was it like for them as she began to send more work their way and when Sandy was diagnosed, what was it like taking over projects and speaking directly to her clients?

Well for that, I’m excited to introduce you to Alexis. Another founding member of Pro who was on the podcast a ‘little’ while ago when we chatted about her first client experience 🙂

This is a very different podcast chat because we have both Sandy AND Alexis on and we get to dig into both sides, both perspectives of their successful scaling story.

From Sandy, we get to hear the ins and outs of her transformation from proud solopreneur to finally scaling and getting to a point where she’s “never going back to being a freelancer.”

And from Alexis, we get to hear how she got connected with Sandy and how, learning from a web designer who’s further along in the journey, helped her build her own business up fast while also doing design and development work, and even improving systems for Sandy.

We dig into:

• How Sandy and Alexis began working together
• How they began trusting each other
• How they arrange payment and percentages for projects
• How 2 minds on a project is often way better than 1
• How to make a win-win for both owners and contractors when scaling 

A big thanks to BOTH Sandy and Alexis for coming on and sharing their experience from both sides. We can all learn a lot from this one. I mean honestly, how often do you get to hear an owner and a contractor’s point of view in a working relationship?

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/363

Big thanks to the sponsors for our upcoming Web Designer Pro CON 2025 event! We couldn't make such a top-notch event for my community without their support 🙏

17hats (for proposals, invoicing, contracts and automation)

SiteGround (for website hosting)

Termageddon (for auto-updating privacy po

Chapters

• 0:00 Scaling Your Web Design Business
• 5:22 Success Stories of Web Design Scaling
• 9:39 Building Trust Through Community Engagement
• 16:58 Empowering Design Collaboration and Growth
• 23:16 Building Team Trust Through Collaboration
• 36:23 Establishing Clear Payment Expectations
• 46:31 Creating Clear Vision and Goal Setting
• 56:55 Balancing Collaboration With Contract Work
• 1:00:55 The Power of Design Collaboration
• 1:04:48 Building Strong Business Relationships
• 1:14:36 Connecting Pro Members for Collaboration

Transcript

Sandy: 1:49

I get to know my clients and, like I said, I visited her and I walked around the house and it's just like, wow. So poor Alexis. I got on a zoom call with her and I spent over half an hour just describing the look of this place and the feel and the you know, all the different like ornate, like little things around and all this kind of stuff. And she was probably thinking like, oh my God, okay, I get it. But you know, I just I really wanted to make sure that she get it. But you know, I just I really wanted to make sure that she, you know, understood what this website was all about. And honestly, in hindsight, I really didn't have to worry because so, a couple of weeks after I handed off that project to her, she, um, she actually did a loom video of the homepage and said, okay, here's what I've added and this is why I designed this like this and all this stuff.

Sandy: 2:32

And I'm sitting there and my jaw hits the desk. I'm just, I was blown away. I was just. You couldn't tell where my design stopped and hers began, because it was just an even flow and the stuff that she had added to the homepage and the stuff that she had brought and just the creativity and stuff was just wow, like that's, when I knew, okay, this is going to be just fine. Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.

Josh: 3:06

Hello, my friend, welcome to a very special I say this all the time, but I really I extra mean it on this one a very special episode of the Web Design Business Podcast because in this one we're going to talk about scaling your web design business. But here's the cool catch on this one this is a two-guest interview, which I rarely do here on the show, but it is with the owner of a business and the contractor owner of a business and the contractor. So we get to hear from both perspectives as an owner, what it's like to find a contractor and begin delegating and hiring workout, but then also from the contractor's point of view and what it's like for them to be guided and empowered in order to have a successful relationship as the scaler and as the contractor. So this chat I absolutely loved because of having the two different perspectives. So I want to introduce to you Sandy Burns and Alexis Myers, and they are the dream team behind Sandy's agency, sandfire Design.

Josh: 4:07

Now, if these two names ring a bell, it's because Sandy was recently on the podcast. She had celebrated 10 years in building up her web design business and I had her on the podcast recently, back in episode 298, really diving into her whole journey through scaling and hiring. So I'm going to recommend that you revisit that one for sure. That's episode 298. And one of the big ways she was able to scale her business and get through a tough journey through cancer is by having a team behind her, and the leader of that team is Alexis Meyer. She was actually on the podcast way back in episode 88, if you want to go back to hearing about how she got started in web design, but they're both members of my community Web Designer Pro, which is how they met each other, and what we dive into here is exactly how they began working each other, working with each other, how they began trusting each other, the nitty gritty of how they arrange payment and percentages on projects, how, most interestingly, two minds on a project can be way better than just one. And I think the biggest takeaway I had from chatting with both Sandy and Alexis is how they are perhaps the best model of creating a win-win situation. So all of that and a whole lot more is covered in this one. Big thanks to Sandy and big thanks to Alexis for coming on here and being very open and transparent about both of their points of view.

Josh: 5:32

This was awesome and I'm really excited to share this with you. If you're looking to scale, but you're terrified of scaling. Speaking of scaling, if you didn't know, I do have a free training that I'm going to recommend that you dive into after this. It gives you my top tips, insights and highlights for scaling successfully. You can go to joshhallco slash scale to pick up that free training. It will be a great addition to this conversation. All right, here's Sandy, here's Alexis. We're going to hear from two people from the owner and contractor point of view about how they successfully scaled a web design business together. Well, sandy, alexis, I've been so excited about this. Thank you both for taking time to come on today and, um, yeah, thank you for being open to talk about your scaling experience on both sides thanks so much for having me back, josh.

Josh: 6:23

Yeah, and Alexis you too I think Alexis was first on the podcast before Sandy for a scaling experience. So, um, yeah, let's start with. I tell you what we'll do. Just do quick intros. Uh, we'll start with Sandy. Where let's start with. I tell you what we'll do. Just do quick intros. Uh, we'll start with Sandy. Where are? Let's talk about where you guys are based out of first Cause. It's kind of interesting, I think, in terms of scaling. And then, uh, when somebody asks you what you do, what do you? What do you tell them? Now, Sandy?

Sandy: 6:47

Um, well, I am based in a very small town near Ottawa in Ontario, canada, and when I say very small town, it's like maybe 2,800 people, not a very big place at all. I know a lot of people here and when somebody asks what I do, I tell them I'm a web designer. But I run a home-based web design business and I have a couple of some subcontractors who help me out and I do mostly small and medium sized businesses and mostly local, but I do have clients across the country and in the States and everything as well.

Josh: 7:20

You are so polished now, Sandy, I feel like I've seen you just refine that little elevator pitch over the years. And speaking of small towns, let's go to Alexis, in little old Washington DC.

Alexis: 7:35

Yes, yes, so I am in DC, not surrounding. I'm actually in the city. A lot of people like to claim that they're in the city when they're in Maryland or Virginia, but I am in the city and when people ask me, I just tell them that I am a web designer and digital marketing strategist and I also have a home-paced business. I have, so far, clients in DC and Maryland. I still need to get some clients in Virginia, but also all over the US and in Canada via Sandy.

Josh: 8:14

So that's it for me. Awesome. Well, it's interesting because you have both been on the podcast before. We talked to Alexis, kind of in the beginning of your journey, alexis, but you were already started cooking, and then Sandy a little further along with your scaling story. But what I'm so excited about this is to hear both perspectives of scaling, because I've never had an opportunity to really dig in to what it's like for this type of relationship. How long have you guys been working together? Has it been like a year, two years?

Sandy: 8:44

I think it was March 2022.

Josh: 8:47

Okay, so over two years almost two and a half years.

Alexis: 8:50

Yeah, it actually started. When I first reached out to her, I feel like it was like December of 2021, I think, and then we didn't really get rolling until, like we said we were going to start in January, and then it kind of started rolling in like February into March I have to look back, I really feel like it wasn't until about February or March in 2022 that you first reached out.

Sandy: 9:14

But yeah, there was a bit of a delay. I don't know.

Josh: 9:17

Maybe I can't remember.

Sandy: 9:19

But you're right, there was a little bit of a delay of like yes, let's work together to the point where it's like OK, I have like, here's what I need you to start with, you know, yeah, and.

Josh: 9:29

I do. I think wasn't it around that time in December of 21, Sandy, that I believe you were on a coaching call in pro and we talked about scale, like what it would look like to scale Cause you were?

Josh: 9:43

like I don't want to scale, but I'm swamped and I don't know what to do, and so maybe that was the, was that kind of Alexis. Did you see that and think like I might be a good fit? So yeah, we'll kind of start with Alexis. Like what, what made you reach out to Sandy and offer your services up? Was it that, or was it something else that you thought you might be a good fit to help out with?

Alexis: 10:00

So it was definitely that. That's my number one tip that I give people about white labeling is that when you hear people are busy, reach out to them one-on-one. That has worked for me multiple times and I just feel like that's a winning strategy there. But yeah, that's why I know that it was December, because it was right after that call that she said that and I reached out to her and it's so crazy because I was like she's probably not gonna respond. She probably already has people that have responded, because I think I don't know that that was her first one with you or something I had. There was some reason why I thought that she already was working with somebody, you know, and it could have been because I did like delay. So maybe I waited a few weeks, maybe it was December, maybe it was January, but I know it was very close.

Alexis: 11:01

After that that hot seat call that I reached out because I was just like, hey, she's busy, I could use the work. I would love to work with her. She seems so sweet, like that was. My first impression was that she's just like, seems like just an amazing sweet person. So I would love to work with her and I definitely had zero faith in it, though I was, I just knew that she had so many other people already reaching out. There was no way that she was going to work with me. Honestly, that's how I thought. So it was like crazy when she responded back and was like I've actually seen your work and I love it and I would love to work with you.

Alexis: 11:39

I was like what? Like it was so shocked and happy, you know. So it turned out to be like amazing.

Josh: 11:46

And Sandy when that happened. We're kind of you know getting into the memory banks now, but how many people reached out? I mean that's one benefit of being in a smaller community like Pro. It's not a 10,000 person Facebook group. If you would have said that in a huge group I'd imagine you would have got swarmed. But kind of two-part question how many people actually reached out and what were your thoughts on Alexia's or Alexis's approach? Sorry, I just talked to Alexia, another former member of Pro. So what was Alexis's approach? That interests you.

Sandy: 12:16

Okay. So I mean, pro was a little bit smaller back then, right, because you've gotten a lot of new people in there since then. So it was funny because, alexis is right, I did have a couple of hot seats definitely two, I can't remember if there was three where I got on and we were talking about the scaling and you were saying like, yeah, it's time to start scaling your swamp, like cause, I had messaged you privately about all this and I was like, well, I don't really want to. I was terrified, terrified to start scaling, cause this is, this was never part of my plan, right. And then, yeah, I had a few people I can't say exactly how many, probably about a half a dozen or so reach out to me in private messages and said you know, hey, I'd love to work with you. And most of them I was just like, okay, thanks, I'll keep you in mind. Like I really didn't know where to start, what, what to say, what to do.

Sandy: 13:03

Um, but uh, with Alexis it was funny because and I've told her this before um, when I heard her on the podcast and then just getting to know her in pro through you know what questions she asks and what she answers to other people and all that stuff. You kind of get an impression of the person, like you know what they're like and stuff like that Right, and I just I got the same sort of impression that she was talking about with me. Like I just thought, you know, she sounds like the type of person that I swear, if we ever met in real life we would just get along. You know, like sounds like the type of person that I swear if we ever met in real life we would just get along. You know, like I just had a really good gut feeling about her. So when she reached out um privately and said hey, I'd love to work with you, I'm like hell, yes, let's do this, you know.

Sandy: 13:44

So that was my, that was my out loud reaction, and then, of course, in the message I was just like yes, absolutely, let's uh, you know, let's work this out, kind of thing.

Josh: 13:52

So yeah, it's a great testament to being active in a community, especially when it is a smaller group where, like, like we all know, and pro, like we've gotten you know, generally you know people who are really active, like we know the names of the folks who are active and it's no surprise that they often get really busy, whether it's a white label situation or partnership, or there's just so many benefits to being active in a group, whether it's a white label situation or a partnership, or there's just so many benefits to being active in a group, whether it is a small group like pro, or whether it is a larger forum or Facebook group. So it's a great lesson learned because, sandy, you got to know Alexis before she even reached out one-on-one. So it's like you know, it's just like anything the more top of mind and visible you are, you get to know somebody and then it makes it a lot easier to be like oh, I feel like I already know you. Yeah, let's start the conversation to potentially work together.

Sandy: 14:39

Yeah Well, absolutely, it really comes down to like I mean, whenever we meet somebody, whether it's in real life or through an email conversation or like a meeting like this or Zoom or something like that, you know you, you get a gut feeling about what that person's like, right? So, um, it was exactly that. It's just like, you know, I, I just get the sense that she's a really good, honest person, a solid, you know, a hard worker and all this kind of stuff. I just had a really good, you know vibe from her and it's just like okay, yeah, this is the type of person I'd like to work with.

Josh: 15:09

And then you guys are both founding members too. It wasn't like Alexis had just joined. I feel like there's probably a little bit of trust there. I'm going to let my golden retriever in, but I would love for you to speak on that. Either one of you like with feeling like well, I mean I imagine for you too, alexis, like you probably wanted to feel, like Sandy was, you know, you probably followed her journey a little bit and saw her business grow. I imagine there was a level of trust there no-transcript.

Sandy: 16:18

And, um, I don't know if you had the podcast going at that time. I think you yeah, obviously you did is uh, um, I'd heard Alexis on it, but, um, I knew that she already followed the same, uh, all the things that you have been preaching for years, right, Like in terms of how to run the business and how to do websites, and I knew that she used Divi and all this stuff, so all of these things were already lined up by the time she reached out, so there was so much that was already like I don't even have to worry about this because I already know. You know what she's doing, because we're both in your, in your, uh, community.

Josh: 16:57

That's awesome, that actually it's a great reminder. Uh, we're planning on doing like certifications for the courses in pro that pop up on profiles so, like you know, members could know like okay, Alexis did the Divi course or the process course to make it easier, um for, yeah, for for white labeling for folks who are in that position. That's a great point though, because it is, I would imagine, just being in pro, probably knocked off, like how many emails and calls? Because you already knew both of you guys. You knew each other. You both use the same tool stack. You've been founding members of this, You've seen each other interact, so I would imagine you probably knocked out a couple weeks worth of correspondence and just got to the nitty gritty about what it would look like to work together.

Alexis: 17:36

Yeah, especially with the process taking your process course, knowing both the process course and the business course, knowing that we both took that. We both ran our businesses that way already. It was a hugely smooth transition working together because we had the same processes. Smooth transition working together because we had the same processes. Obviously, we put our own thing on it, but I'm already familiar with the process. You know and and how to do things. So that also helped in when, obviously, sandy got diagnosed and you know I helped her set up a lot of processes, transfer her over to Dubsado and everything from from previously sending PDFs for, for, for contracts, you know. So it was just great, too, though, to have you know that we all I knew like everything that was included because we had the same systems, we had the same processes. So it just makes it so much easier.

Josh: 18:38

Remind me, sandy and we. You know we don't have to rehash the whole story because you were on the podcast. We'll make sure we link to that, but you did get diagnosed with a cancer diagnosis, did you? Had you already started talking to Alexis leading up to that, or was that? Yeah, when did that come about?

Sandy: 18:55

again, as far as your scaling journey, so, um, I started scaling in January of 2022 and I started working with Alexis that March, and it was at the end of August that year that I got diagnosed with breast cancer.

Josh: 19:08

Okay, so you guys had been working together for a decent amount of time before, yeah.

Sandy: 19:12

For a few months and it was and it was actually absolute perfect timing in that sense, just because, by the time I got my diagnosis, alexis and I had built up that level of trust and I knew what she could do and I knew that she was capable of carrying these projects while I stepped back and focused on my health, you know.

Josh: 19:36

I mean, the timing still blows me away Sometimes. I sometimes I think about it. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's just I'm so uh Happy for you, sandy, that we had that discussion, that you reached out when you did and that Alexis was there for you. I know there's a couple other pros who you've worked with periodically and ongoing and pro as well, so it's really cool to just have this as a resource for you, sandy, during that situation. And, alexis, I think you are at a place with your business where you're still growing and it was a good, a separate source of income and also experience, I would imagine. I mean Sandy's been doing this for, at this point, over a decade. So what was it like for you, alexis, to learn from Sandy, who's already been doing it at that point? For what? Seven years, seven, eight years?

Sandy: 20:23

Something I started in 2013. So 2022.

Alexis: 20:27

Yeah, nine years yeah yeah, yeah, um, it's been tremendous for me, I mean, to be able to learn from her. She's amazing. Sometimes she forgets how amazing she is and how long she's been doing this and it just really like um has just helped me, even in my processes, my, my proposals, you proposals, you know, for my own separate clients and stuff. We share everything. We share everything and so I've gotten so much from her. We share ideas and stuff, but her advice is always just so on point.

Alexis: 20:59

I can always like like honestly I have to admit this to you, josh, I know you're my coach, but like a lot of times I'll ask her first, you know, and then I might ask you or whatever.

Alexis: 21:11

But it's like because I know that she has the skill set and advice and stuff. So it's just incredible to be able to be so connected with her and working underneath her and learning so much. And I mean and also it stretches me, it challenges me in the best way Some of the websites that I have worked on, I mean industries I would have never even thought of being in DC from DC, like I've worked on honeybee farm websites, and I mean all kinds of stuff that I never would have done. And it's incredible, though it like it opens me up to so many more industries and I've just been pushed and stretched and grown, just even as a designer my design eye from her, like she's taught me a lot about color. You know, I'm very rigid sometimes and she has pulled me out of my rigidity, especially when it comes to color and how to play with it at different times and stuff like that. I mean, it's just been, it's just been incredible over across the board.

Josh: 22:21

Oh, that's awesome. So, sandy, I'm curious. We've talked a lot about some of the mindset stuff with this kind of the big picture of how well this has worked out. But starting, what were the initial tasks that you felt comfortable to hand off to Alexis? You mentioned that you liked her design style and you felt good about her as a person or communication. There was a level of trust, being members of Pro for a while together. But you and I talked I remember DMing and you were like the classic question that I felt too, or the classic concern or challenge was I have control over my designs, I don't want to lose control. So what did you give to Alexis initially? Well, was it small tasks? Were they like low pressure, low risk tasks, or did you let her embrace her design and like, what did you let her do at first?

Sandy: 23:15

So yeah. So before she even reached out, I had looked at her website and her work and stuff like that, and so one of the reasons why I was just like heck yes, let's work together when she first reached out was because not only was you know, was it the whole. I know that we're going to get along and and we'll be able to work together and everything, but I recognize that her design style was very similar to mine, you know, and I. It was really important to me that whoever I get to help me out with the business, that their design compliments my style, because we all have different styles, right, and I really didn't want my clients to go oh, this isn't a Sandy website. I hired you because I like your websites and this doesn't look like your work. You know what I mean. So that's what really went into that, to answer the first part of that question.

Sandy: 24:06

So, yeah, there was a bit of a delay between yes, let's work together and here's the first assignment for you, because I was swamped, I was overwhelmed, I was trying to figure out what to hand off and I I was really, really hesitant to start off with just hey, here's a whole website, get started. Let me know if you have questions, right, because again, it was that fear, like you said, of losing control of the design and losing control of just like the whole process, right, but what happened was I had a website that I had started on the homepage and had gotten about three quarters of the way done on the homepage page and it was a bed and breakfast and, um, I hadn't had a chance to go back to that one because I was just working on, like this other website and this one and this client work and you know all this stuff. So, after a few weeks, and this client is like, hey, you know, hey, how's my website coming along? When do I get to see it? And stuff. I'm like, oh God, okay, I need to get this going Right.

Sandy: 25:12

So I reached out to Alexis and you know, and, um, so I gave that to her, but it was really funny because I had gone out and visited this, this client, and she had, uh, unfortunately, the bed and breakfast is closed down now, but, um, it was in this heritage home and it was it. There was so much character to this place and, you know, I really like my biggest fear was is anybody I hire going to care about my clients as much as I do, you know, are they going to invest as much energy and, um, you know, like emotion into into the project? Right, like I get to know my clients and, like I said, I visited her and I walked around the house and it's just like, wow. So poor Alexis. I got on a zoom call with her and I spent over half an hour just describing the look of this place and the feel and the you know, all the different like ornate, like little things around and all this kind of stuff.

Sandy: 26:03

And she was probably thinking like, oh my God, okay, I get it, but you know, I just I really wanted to make sure that she, you know, understood what this website was all about. And honestly, in hindsight, I really didn't have to worry because so, a couple of weeks after I handed off that project to her, she, um, she actually did a loom video of the homepage and said, okay, here's what I've added, and this is why I designed this, like this and all this stuff. And I'm sitting there and my jaw hits the desk. I'm just, I was blown away. I was just. You couldn't tell where my design stopped and hers began, because it was just an even flow and the stuff that she had added to the homepage and the stuff that she had brought and just the creativity and stuff was just wow, like that's when I knew, okay, this is going to be just fine.

Josh: 26:49

And that was the first Wow. So Alexis just hit one out of the park. I'm a dinger on round one.

Alexis: 26:58

Look, I have to tell my side of that.

Josh: 27:00

I want to hear your side. Yeah, okay, oh yeah you, you tell your side of that.

Alexis: 27:05

Because first she said that she wanted me to do like the inside pages. That was the first thing was that she would like do the homepage you know the initial design and I would do the inside pages and I was like no problem. And then, because she was so swamped, she wanted me to take over this homepage. So I'm like super nervous because I'm like, oh my gosh, like I hope she likes it. This is a lot of pressure you know to start or whatever.

Alexis: 27:32

But then the other kicker because this was a bed and breakfast I was actually staying in a hotel the weekend that I finished the homepage and so I took some design ideas from the hotel's website and added them, and that was one of the things that she was really impressed with was I think it was like the policy section or whatever on the homepage or whatever. So it just ended up that she loved it. And it's so funny that she said I did the loom video. I don't do that anymore, but that's obviously what I do for my clients because of Josh's processes, and so you know I just did that for her or whatever. But yeah, I was just so happy that she loved it so much and it just kind of went from there and then we both kind of split the inside pages so we could get it done.

Josh: 28:21

I mean, that is just the ultimate scaling success story right there and I actually think on both sides of it's there's some really important lessons there. I think on Sandy, on your side, I think it actually is good to over-communicate initially and be a little much like because because it showed how much you care, I would imagine Alexis, you probably saw how much she really cares about her clients. I would think that that would make you want to do even better. It wasn't Sandy, wasn't just like can you just do whatever on this. It was like is she really? I mean, did that set the tone for you, alexis, to know?

Alexis: 28:55

like she's that serious about this.

Alexis: 28:57

That is something that is a constant with Sandy is how dedicated she is to her clients, how much she cares about her clients. I don't know that we would work well together if we didn't have that in common. She at the time did not know that. I feel like it's innate in me that I really become invested in every project that I do, even when I do projects for my self-contract clients. Right, I really do, and so she had no idea that that's how I was. So when she said she felt like she was overwhelming with content, she wasn't.

Alexis: 29:31

I was getting immersed so that I could then, you know, do the design justice, and so that's what happened. I think that the fact that we align in that is really one of the power things that we have together. I think, probably when you first meet with your subcontractor, asking those types of questions or, like you know, making sure that you align on other than just the design, but you know, having those other interests and innate qualities, I think matching is really important to a really good relationship and delivering on the same level, you know.

Josh: 30:11

I mean honestly, sandy, I think a lot of of your wow reaction from what Alexis you know did in that first project was, was largely because you really empowered her and set her up to do that. I feel like if you would have just said can you just add some to the homepage what you know, whatever, nothing against Alexis, but with no good, clear direction, it's hard to get a result that you want. So I think, in a large way, I think it was like the perfect time for you to really go in depth about how you're feeling about this, being there in person. So I love hearing how that worked out.

Alexis: 30:45

Yeah, it was perfect. It was perfect and we do that every time we do. We have like a kickoff call or whatever um for each project where she just talks to me about cause a lot of times she does visit them in person. That's another thing that I just really love about her her small town, you know, and her connecting with all of her clients. That way it's just like she visits them and she immerses herself and then she shares that with me and sometimes I join the call too. It just depends Um, so that I can get immersed with the client, the client and get you know, you know whatever.

Josh: 31:17

You know what I'm trying to say how did you present that to the client? Did you say, like this is my work, look what I created for you? Or, uh, did you start to say we. At that point, how did you?

Sandy: 31:27

Oh God, so that it was. It's so funny because I was so. That was another fear that I had and I realize now that it was a completely um, unjustified fear and probably kind of silly because you know, it's totally okay to scale. But I was really nervous that my clients were going to be saying to me oh, what do you mean? You have a subcontractor, I'm hiring you. You know, like um, you know that I was. I was nervous about what the reaction was going to be, but ever since the very start with this bed and breakfast, I would tell my clients OK, I had my subcontract designer. Like I didn't even call it subcontractors after a while it was just like OK.

Sandy: 32:05

I got my designer helping me with this, you know. And then when I present it well, that one is a little bit different because we work together on it. And when I present it well, that one is a little bit different because we work together on it. But I've had Alexis be, you know, she has done so many complete websites start to finish for me at this point, and so when I present it to a client it's like, ok, I had my designer start on this. You know, here's what she's got so far. I think she's done a really great job. What do you think? All this kind of stuff. And then, you know, I take notes and relay it back to her and a lot of times now I'll have her client facing. She's part of the meetings and stuff like that too. So we're all kind of chatting together. But, yeah, like not a single client has said oh, what do you mean? You have a designer. You know like it's.

Josh: 32:48

It's just been okay, no problem, let's keep going. You know, did you immediately start to go from I to we? I was trying to remember even on your website like uh, or in your sales calls. How did that? I know, you know you. You mentioned she started to work her in on like client calls and stuff like that. But, um, yeah, those those first couple of projects that Alexis worked on with you. Did you say we in my designer right off the bat?

Sandy: 33:15

I'm trying to remember I, I think I held onto the eye for a few months just because I was really nervous and I, I like I mean I knew with Alexis right off the bat, with that homepage, that it was going to work out and I wasn't going to let her go, because this is amazing. But at the same time I was kind of like, okay, at what point do I switch to? We and you know I still had this like OK, can I keep this up? Like what's? You know what's this going to look like down the road? And it's always a fear of, ok, am I going to have enough work to keep scaling? Of course that has not been an issue at all.

Sandy: 33:46

But but yeah, honestly, the big push to jump from I, from me to we was that breast cancer diagnosis. Because about a month or two afterwards is when I emailed my clients and I said, ok, this is what's happening, I'm going to step back a little bit, but I've got this designer who's helping me out and she's going to carry your projects and you know, and keep them moving forward and don't worry, I'm still monitoring everything. And so at that point it was very much a we and I think at that point is when I changed it all on my website and stuff too.

Sandy: 34:18

So yeah, the cancer diagnosis really kind of made me take the leap from me to we.

Josh: 34:20

Gotcha, gotcha and again, incredible for Alexis on your end, I imagine, to have what five, six months to kind of get going and then probably, I would imagine, feel confident to you know, step into more of a bigger role for Sandy during all that.

Alexis: 34:35

Definitely definitely. And it's also important to share that, even though she gives me full sites, everything always gets approved by her. You know, a lot of times we discuss ideas of what to do before I even start, and so then I'll implement that or some version of that, because of course the design process takes its way, but she always approves. She's my first client. Regardless of the client, she's my first client. I'm always nervous that she's gonna like it, so it's always important just to note that she approves everything before the client sees it. You know so it really doesn't matter, because if she doesn't like it, then I go back to the drawing board, you know. So she doesn't really have to worry about what her clients are thinking, because she's never going to deliver something to them that she doesn't like. You know so. I know that. So it's just a good, you know just thing to have.

Josh: 35:39

So, sandy, kind, of went from all the roles in the business to now much more creative director, probably little project manager, and in Alexis it sounds like you've started to kind of chip away at more roles you know to help out. But again, the cool thing about this, from what I gather, being that it's been over two years now, it seems like you guys have done this at a sustainable pace. It didn't seem like there was the expectations seem clear to where, like it was just kind of a trial run this is from what I see at least, and it worked out really good. And because Alexis was at a place where she was still very early on in her business, she was down to do a lot of work for you, sandy, and then with your experience, it's feeding her. She's probably able to learn from you and then apply that to her clients.

Josh: 36:24

So I'm curious, sandy, expectation-wise, once you really started getting more confident with Alexis and her work, what did that look like? Did you have expectations even before the diagnosis? Or was it just like as much as you want to take on? You know, here you go, because I imagine you could quickly be like I might take her on full time, but obviously Alexis is also an entrepreneur and a business owner too, which can always be tricky with a subcontractor situation. So you know I don't have a clear question. I'm just kind of curious about what your thought was with, like you know, the expectation um, with how much he was working for you and what the relationship would look like moving forward.

Sandy: 37:03

Oh, I wish I could employ her full time. I would need to charge a whole lot more for that. But yeah, I would love to because, um, I mean, I certainly probably have enough work for her to to work full time for me. But, uh, but I mean, I also don't want to impede on the fact that she does have her own business and her own clients and everything, and I I want her to grow her business, just not so much that she can't work for me anymore. But, um, but yeah, in terms of expectations, I don't know, it was really I, I think I only gave her one project at a time, for the first bit, or like it would be a case where, you know, I, we would get a website to a certain point and then it's like, okay, can you start on this other one while we're waiting for feedback on this one from this client, you know.

Sandy: 37:44

So you know she would have a couple of things on her plate and then I would start getting her to do some client work too. Like when I say client work, it's not full website projects, it's like make these changes on this website, or you know, we all, we all have that kind of stuff going on too, right, and there's never any shortage of that.

Sandy: 38:03

So, yeah, she started doing some of that. And then it was funny because when I got the cancer diagnosis and she she mentioned this earlier she at that point had been working with me for a few months and she noticed that, um, I was doing invoices from one software and contracts from another software and questionnaires from another online software, and you know all these things. And she's like you know what, you can meld all of this together into Densato and you know just, um, you know, just have it all in one place. And you could, you could just make your you know, all of your automations and your processes and stuff so much quicker and clearer and everything else.

Sandy: 38:39

I didn't even realize that there was a better way than what I was doing. So so she not only helped me with carrying my projects while I was sick, but she also I got, I created an account in DevSado and she got into my content snare and copied all of my content collection, questionnaires and everything else over to Dubsado. And then she helped me set up all of my proposals and all of my you know, moving my clients over for invoicing and stuff like that. She did all this admin stuff in addition to this other stuff, and it was just like that's gold because alexis has that background as a va and a lot of that tech work.

Josh: 39:19

So, yeah, you really struck gold with a incredible designer and and project manager, communicator and half va.

Sandy: 39:26

So and I didn't even know that when I first hired her like after I told my like, because I was working with three people at the time and I called them into a zoom meeting to tell them okay, I've been diagnosed with breast cancer. You know, I don't know what the next few months are going to look like, but I really need you guys. Um, alexis private messaged me after that call and said you know, I have a background as a VA. If you need any help with administrative stuff, I'd be happy to help you out. And I'm like, oh my God, I hadn't even thought about the administrative stuff. And then it was after that that she was like hey, you know what you can really improve your processes and you know all of this stuff too. And it's like I hadn't even thought about that. So, yeah, I know she, she was an absolute godsend through all of this and still is. So, yeah, yeah.

Alexis: 40:09

Especially with the content snare, having her have all of her. I think that might have been like one of the first things that made me say you know you can put these in. You know like everything could be one thing, especially the whole contract proposal invoice thing too. It's just like so easy. But I think it was those, those two main things.

Alexis: 40:29

It was just like you really should put all of this together you know and make this a lot easier on yourself, you know, so it was just a no brainer to suggest that you know.

Josh: 40:38

And I will say this as a as a busy entrepreneur, like the folks I've hired when they come to me with ideas that are efficient and really good, I'm like, oh, absolutely Like I want subcontractors to see my business and if they think of something, that's way better. Or I mean I try to make a comfortable environment for people to share ideas and stuff. It's a good reminder for me to be more proactive on that. I would encourage everybody in the scaling seat to really make a comfortable environment, an open environment, to say like, yeah, what do you think could be improved? Because it saves so much work, like Sandy, instead of having to take a whole week thinking about your business and thinking about what's delaying projects, alexis just saw it and then came through for you and not only gave you ideas, but actually implemented. So I can't recommend enough to empower contractors, especially somebody like Alexis who has all these other skill sets along with it. Like, let them flourish. And I imagine for you, alexis, everything you did for Sandy you could probably replicate for you if you hadn't already.

Alexis: 41:40

Exactly, yeah, I just really did a lot of stuff that I had already done for myself, for her, and it was just, you know, great to be able to do.

Josh: 41:49

So it was kind of project by project as as needed. Um, sandy, did you start to do any sort of uh, we don't have to talk rates, but did you do any like retainer or percentage of projects? How did the, the billing, the, the money side of this, like, how did that change, um, during the diagnosis but also over the past couple of years? Like, how has the, the way you guys figure out the, you know the, the revenue splits and everything on this?

Sandy: 42:18

So that was another thing that was kind of um, not completely uh, organized and in place before all of this. And so what happened was we started off, when I first started working with her, as doing like a percentage of the project, but that wasn't ideal, because we would start the project and then it might take a couple of months, so then I'm having to pay her out of other projects and sort of trying to figure out how it all would work out. And then then I think we started going to more of an hourly and it was just kind of a case of like, ok, you know, work on this, tell me how many hours you spent on it and stuff. And that was kind of like it worked, but it it wasn't consistent and she didn't know how much she was going to be working on this, and I was always nervous about like, ok, how many hours is she going to be on me for? And can I afford this? Because you know the ebb and flow of web design income, right?

Sandy: 43:16

Um, and then you, uh, you know, sent out this newsletter one weekend and you were talking about how to pay, uh, subcontract designers and you had these different methods in there and the last one was a monthly retainer of a certain amount number of hours. And I read it and I'm like why didn't I do this in the first place? Like this is just like brilliant, right. So I emailed, or no, I messaged Alexis immediately after I read that and I'm like, hey, why don't we do it this way? We set a certain number of hours every month. That's what you know I pay you for. If you, if we need to go over, then we talk about that. Um, but at least this way it's a consistent. You know how much you're getting. I know much, how much I have to pay. We both know how many hours we're we're investing, you know with, with my business here, like on her side, and um, yeah, so we've been doing that ever since and that works out extremely well.

Josh: 44:06

Oh, that's so awesome, alexis. I think you messaged me right after that and you were like we both saw this and it's been a win-win. Because for you, alexis, I would imagine as much as we try to eventually get away from trading time for money at the same time, for you especially right now in this season I would imagine it's stable, consistent income and you love doing the work. You love working with Sandy. You're not needing to do the sales, you're just doing implementation and design. I know those are the areas that you really really enjoy. Sandy's able to really take the lead on meeting people and get the projects and do the marketing your projects, even when you can take them on. You could I think I told you this, like you could charge really premium rates now for your projects and just do less of them and have more time for sandy's work. Like I would imagine it was a win-win for you with that definitely, definitely.

Alexis: 45:04

when she emailed me, I was like hold up, let me do the math on this, and it was just like amazing. Yes, it was just like amazing. Yes, it was just win, win, win across the board. It's just been really, really amazing and it just helps.

Alexis: 45:18

A lot of times still, I have to tell Wendy Sandy, but a lot of times still, I have to remind her okay, do you have work? Remember, I have these hours for this month, you know, don't forget. Do you have client work too? Like, don't forget, you know, because she's very much again into her clients and feeling like she has to do everything, and a lot of times she'll be overwhelmed and I'll be like okay, do we need to have a call? Like, let's talk about what's going on so that I have these hours, let's use these, you know. And so it's great that way, though, because a lot of times she'll be like okay, well, let's look at the list and let's yeah, actually you can do this. Yes, please, you know. So it's great, it helps her while it's helping me, you know in other ways.

Josh: 46:03

So it's just great all across the board. That's awesome and I think it's definitely possible to start out with that model. But I think it's even better if you get to know both of your situations where Alexis, you got to know Sandy or processes and enjoy working with her, and vice versa, and then I feel like for Sandy, for you, you probably get a sense of how much Alexis has taken on for you and I think that makes it easier to say like okay, yeah, it might be like 15 a month or 20 hours a month versus in the beginning. It's tough to figure out a monthly retainer when you're not quite sure how often they're going to be working.

Alexis: 46:37

Yeah, exactly, I had to go back and like calculate okay, this month I did this many, or I think I did like the previous three months or something like that. Like, okay, this is how much, how many hours I did for you each month over the past three months, and we kind of came up with the number that way. So definitely have to kind of get a flow of working with the person and finding out, okay, this is how many, an average of how many hours that person is working regularly, and then you can fall on the right number. But yeah, that worked out well once. We just kind of figured that out.

Josh: 47:13

Was that experience for you too, sandy? Was it like? Was it a lot easier to speak? All right, I have a month of retainer and then we don't have to worry about percentages of projects or hour at a time. Uh yeah, I would love to hear your perspective on that.

Sandy: 47:26

Yeah, absolutely Like it's. It's so much easier to know that I, you know we've got it set now where she has an auto invoice that gets sent to me, you know, once a month and then I am set up on auto pay, so we don't even have to worry about that much and I know exactly when that's coming, how much it's going to be, and you know I can make sure that. You know that I have that covered on my end and all that kind of stuff that I have that covered on my end and all that kind of stuff. The big sort of difficult part for me just being in Canada, the exchange rate for US is insane. I think it's close to 40% or something at this point. Like it's ridiculous. So that is a bit of a killer. But knowing exactly how much it's going to be for her every month makes it a lot easier, because then I don't have to worry about, like because I can factor that in as well.

Josh: 48:17

You know Great point.

Josh: 48:18

You know, yeah, and I think exchange rates are. I mean, that's common across everyone. When I was working with Jonathan, he was in Australia and time where I've worked with Christian being in Brazil, and those are all different. The cool thing about that is, regardless of the exchange rate, I feel like what I've found is that it's just about the project and, like Sandy, as long as you know the amount of time on average you'll be working and the roles you'll take on, then the rest of the project. It's like whether you hire a Lexus or somebody overseas or whatever it is, as long as it works out. I mean, the exchange rate is almost just like part of the cost of you know the project at this point and you're definitely at a time where you can raise your rates. So I'll follow up with you on that. I feel like every six months, I'm like Sandy, you need to raise your rates. Sandy, you need to raise your rates.

Sandy: 49:03

I was just talking about this with my boyfriend last night. I'm like I have to raise my rates again, you know.

Josh: 49:10

But that is a part of it, especially as exchange rates change and inflation and everything else, like it is. You know it's, it's common. Um, of course there's other avenues too. I mean, you could offer a different package or just something that's kind of a 10 X style approach, so a lot of different ways we can talk about raising rates.

Josh: 49:25

But one thing I'm curious about is do you guys now, at this point in this relationship, do you have like a planning or goal setting or vision casting together at all when you look at the next year, now that we're heading into at the time of recording this, we're heading into 25. Or does it just kind of go month to month just as is? Or I'm just kind of curious, like because Alexis is an entrepreneur and a business owner, I'm wondering for you, sandy, do you guys share the vision of both where you want to go, whether all is fine, you want to keep it going for like this, for as long as you can, like what is vision and that look like now for you, sandy, as you know, now it's we, it's not just Sandy's, you know, it's not just your thing anymore.

Sandy: 50:09

Yeah, it is very much. We, you know, we haven't really done that. That's probably a good idea, Alexis, we should. We should probably talk about that, but, um, no, like honestly, I've been so busy that it's. It's literally like, okay, here's the websites that are on my plate. What do you want to work on? You know, Um, and I, I give her a choice and and, uh, you know, and talk about the different clients and stuff. But, yeah, I know, in terms of of vision cast, yeah, that is something that we should probably start looking into and maybe, Josh, you can give me some coaching on that one Cause that is that's something that I really should do more of. Like, I, I definitely have goals in terms of you know, um, where, where I want my business to be revenue wise and the services that I want to add, and I'm taking a Sam's SEO course right now and I really want to, um, you know, implement that as well, and you know, Alexis will be part of that as well.

Josh: 51:12

Yeah, I do think it's a gray on both sides, cause you know, for for you as the owner of the business, especially now that you're truly you know owner of Sandfire, it's like it's at least annually. I think it's really good to really set some vision and some some concrete goals and measurable goals and get a really good idea of what you want that year. And some of it may be like do I want more calendar space? Do I want to have like five or six extra hours a week? Then what would that look like between raising rates or giving Alexis more? And then for Alexis, you know, seeing, make sure what's, what's she enjoying about it, what is she envisioning for her too? Like, is she at a place where she could take on more?

Josh: 51:49

So I don't know, what do you think about that, alexis, as far as being the you know, the contractor in this role Although you're much more than that with Sandy I, you know that now, I guess that would be. I guess you would technically be the you know, the designer, the tech VA designer, but she's my lead designer.

Sandy: 52:04

Lead designer okay.

Alexis: 52:13

So, yeah, what do you feel about Like with your vision and working with Sandy, if you were to both map out?

Alexis: 52:14

you know, Actually it's a great idea and I will say that last year we did do like an end of the year, like check and call and like talked about things that we liked or didn't like wanted to do for the next year, stuff like that, and I think we definitely should do that again, but maybe include some of the visioning, because, honestly, just bringing it now is giving me ideas and we should talk about that stuff and plan for it and stuff like that. So that's a really good idea. I don't know why we haven't, but we need to. We need to implement that.

Josh: 52:49

That's a really good idea well, I love that idea too of of reflecting and recapping the year, whether those are the same call or whether there are two separate calls. I think it's great looking at, yeah, what works well, what could be improved on, and I think that will probably pretty naturally lead into okay, well, let's work on this for for q1 and 25 or um. And I think the thing that's important, I think for both of you, is you've got like a couple of years here of building this super strong you know, scaling relationship. I think the next evolution will be to maintain what you have here, but also have the expectations of both of your guys' parties super clear and knowing. I think if you know exactly where you're both going, it'll just continue to be a win-win. I think if you know exactly where you're both going, it'll just continue to be a win-win.

Josh: 53:37

I just know sometimes, when I've worked with contractors, I didn't know they were getting really busy or I didn't know that they weren't enjoying this type of work. And it's easy and as you probably know, sandy, it's easy to just hand off tasks and you don't really know how they're being received unless you're getting real-time feedback. So I've learned to be really receptive and I try to do the same thing at least once every quarter, where I'll ask, like, how are you guys feeling, what do you love doing, what do you hate? Because if I don't want to give you work, you don't like we can find somebody else to do that. So, yeah, I think it'd be a great time. Obviously now you know we're ending the year, so great time to reflect and cast vision. Yeah, so great time to reflect and cast vision.

Sandy: 54:12

Yeah, I fully agree with that, because that was the whole point of having that end of year recap with Alexis was just, I wanted to make sure that, you know, the work that she was getting from me is stuff that she enjoyed working on, that she was able to be creative and have fun with it. And you know that I was managing things in a way that wasn't to um, either, you know, uh, not involved enough or over-involved. You know what I mean. Like I um cause that was another fear that I had with scaling was you know what kind of I'm going to like air quote boss? Would I be kind of thing Like I?

Sandy: 54:49

You know I I don't want to be, um, the kind of person who, just like, micromanages everything, but at the same time, I wanted to make sure that, you know, the work you know fell in line with what my clients expected from my business and that kind of stuff too. So I really wanted to make sure that Alexis was happy with working for me and, you know, with the work that she was getting and all that kind of stuff. And that's why I give her the choice too. When we look at my work list and it's like okay, what do you want to work on, because you know I want, I want her to be able to have those, those options of like oh, you know what this website sounds like, a challenge I'd like to take that on. Or or, if she's coming from a place where she's already really busy, maybe she wants to take something that sounds a little easier, just because she doesn't have as much time to invest with that sort of creative stretching the muscles kind of thing, you know.

Josh: 55:39

So yeah, do you do that, alexis? If you get a few projects locally, do you let Sandy know? Like hey, I'm. You know I could do our normal amount of hours this month, but I got to get caught up on these Uh, so you might want to have somebody else help. How does that work?

Alexis: 55:52

Yeah, I'll just let her know when I'm busy or I'll be like it'll probably take me a few weeks to get to that or something or to complete that or something like that. If I am really busy, I'll definitely let her know. But I will say, like you know, I don't tell anybody no, at this point, like, whatever they say, I'm like okay, no'll just work, I'll just figure it out. You know, like I'll get it done. You know, if I, if I have to tell them I'm behind right now, you know, and then I'll just I'll get it out, and so that that's been working. But I will say I just have to like, like, give Sandy her flowers right now, because, like, one of the main reasons why we have such a good working relationship and it works so well is because of exactly what she just said about wanting to be a good leader and a good person to work for, because that is not always the case and the fact that she has that self-awareness and that she brings that consciousness to everything that we do is a huge reason why we work so well together.

Alexis: 56:56

Just now, the website that I'm working on for her now is for an architect, and hours that I need to do every month. You know, I was like look, what do we have? I'm ready. And she's like dang, I really wanted to do this site but I have to give it to Alexis, right, and because he was ready, he was ready, so that timing worked.

Alexis: 57:26

But she goes, and so I'm like I know how much she really wants to. So we're both like people pleasers, right. So know how much she really wants to. So we're both like people pleasers, right. So I'm like so I'm like I know how much she wants to work on this. So I'm asking her, I'm like okay, well, maybe I'll ask you each section I do before I do it, you know. So that your input is so much on that.

Alexis: 57:48

And she's like no, I want you to be creative and your creative juices to flow. I don't want to micromanage you on this, you know. And now I'm like that was huge, that was huge for me in this, because I'm like I know she's like doesn't really want to give this up, even though her time won't allow her to do it herself, you know. So it's like those types of things are huge to really have that consideration for the person who is working for you. And she gave me that freedom to do my thing on the design of the site and she ended up really liking it. So it's like you know. I just have to say that because when she was saying, you know what she was saying about. You know, micromanaging, that's huge, that's huge and it really adds to a positive working relationship and me always feeling respected and free enough to do my thing and still be confident that we're going to be good and everything is going to work out.

Josh: 58:48

I think there's actually a lot of benefit to being an accidental owner, because I feel like those types are more humble, especially when it comes to hiring out, and I've kind of felt like this too.

Josh: 59:04

I've had a lot of similar contractors have generally said they really like working with me because I'm not overbearing or micromanaging and I try to make it fun and cool and if there is a problem, try to handle it in a way that's like hey, we just need to make sure we don't miss this. But I feel like people who start their business plan to scale, they're a little more what's the word I'm looking for like disciplinarian or something I don't know. They're you know what I mean like they're a little more rigid. Yeah, to where, like you, may not feel as comfortable sharing ideas or or working or being afraid to mess up, whereas, like you know Sandy, who's been doing this for a while you know I had to like force her to she had no choice but to scale basically, but she's cool about it. It's not. You know, I really do think there's a there's a lot to be said for like accidental owners and being pretty cool people to work for or work with.

Sandy: 59:56

Thank you All right, well.

Josh: 59:58

well, sandy's beat red now, so there are there are other couple, a couple other pros who have either worked sporadically, you know, periodically, or or or a little bit more ongoing. So, sandy, how have you balanced? That is alexis, pretty much the main one now, or do you do you have a couple fallbacks for when alexis is busy? How is it now? Because you are at a place where, like you mentioned, you probably could hire Alexis full time if you wanted to. But how have you balanced, you know, having a couple other sets of hands?

Sandy: 1:00:28

Um. So I still work um occasionally with Abby from the from pro.

Sandy: 1:00:33

Um so she, uh, she's actually helping me with another site right now. But, yeah, alexis is is my main designer. She's, she's my number one, you know, and you know and it's funny because you know, I don't even see her as, like, you know, she's yes, she's a subcontractor, but I see her as a colleague. You know what I mean. Like we work together on projects and I just wanted to say too and we've I've said this directly to clients, um, including the architect that you mentioned there is that when we work together on a website, it's a million times better than it would be if either of us were to do it completely alone.

Sandy: 1:01:14

You know, like we're both, I think, decent designers, but when we put our heads together and we work together on a website, it's just a million times better Because, like even from the start, like she said, we'll discuss the fonts and the colors and sort of the initial layout and what's going to be in each section and all this kind of stuff and even just that, like just brainstorming. You know, we'll play off of each other's ideas and just sort of build it and get really excited. And you know, we'll play off of each other's ideas and just sort of build it and get really excited, and you know, and, yeah, I love that you mentioned that, stani.

Josh: 1:01:43

I remember us talking about that because when you do get another set of eyes, especially if it's somebody who has good design skills and conversion skills and has a heart for it, it really can it. Just, I mean, it's just, two minds are better than one when it comes to something like that, especially if they are in the same constraints of your design style and everything I mean. This is why I'm a big proponent of having your websites looked at by a colleague or in pro. It's one of my favorite aspects of the website reviews that we do is so many members come in, especially new members, and after a month they're like my website is so much better because they get my insight, they get other member insight, and then suddenly it's not just what you think is good, it's like a ton of other people who have contributed to it, and I still do this.

Josh: 1:02:28

By the way, I'm working with Michelle Verminier right now on WebExcenterProcom and, yeah, I mean the reason that's converting so well is she's had a huge part in that. Um, because it's not just my idea. Suddenly it's, you know, a group effort. So I love that you mentioned that, because it's a hidden gym of scaling, because it's not all you uh, which is actually awesome.

Sandy: 1:02:48

Yeah, and it's not even just the websites that we work on together. It's like she'll be doing a website for her client and be like hey Sandy, what do you think of this? You know, I'm struggling with this part of it, or I just you know cause we we've had this discussion so many times where and I'm sure this is the same for a lot of us where you start a website, you're super excited, you get into it, you start designing it, and then it gets to a point where you've stared at it for so long that you don't even know if it's good anymore and you start thinking, wow, this sucks. And then you start thinking, wow.

Josh: 1:03:18

I really suck. And what am I doing?

Sandy: 1:03:19

You know what I mean. It's just this like path that we all seem to go through, and I've been at this for 11 years and I still go through this on every single site. So when I get to that point, all I do is I message Alexis in Slack and I'm just like, okay, I don't even know if this is good anymore. Here's a link. What do you think you know?

Sandy: 1:03:38

And give me your honest and this is the other thing too is that we'll ask each other for feedback and we're we're honest, but we can both take that constructive criticism, and I think that's really important. It's like we don't have so much pride and ego that it's like what do you mean that? You know that was the change, blah, blah, blah. It's like we're both open to oh yeah, you know what I haven't thought about reducing this font size or changing this picture, or moving this over here or whatever, because sometimes the smallest details can just make the biggest impact, right, and uh, yeah, so like we'll, we'll get each other's feedback on on just about everything you know, and we truly, truly value each other's opinions on this too. So, yeah, yeah.

Alexis: 1:04:16

Yeah.

Josh: 1:04:17

It's so cool to see this come full circle. This is one of my favorite chats ever because I've known you both for a long time. Sandy I mean gosh, I've known you since the early days of like the Divi tutorials and first courses. And Alexis, you really came into the picture when pro, or formerly the web design club, kind of launched and got to see you start to take off with your biz, so to see you guys where you're at now. The cool thing about this is, Alexis you mentioned 2024 was your best year to date. So first off, big congrats, well-earned, well-deserved. Just the start. And, Sandy, was it last year that you took like a two-week trip cruise and were able to like literally just disconnect.

Josh: 1:04:55

Like what a win.

Sandy: 1:04:56

Yeah, it was this year, it was this past February. I took.

Sandy: 1:04:59

I think it was a 13 or 12 day cruise to Panama and it was the very first vacation in probably since before I started my business. Yeah, actually it is the first vacation that I've had since before I started my business where I actually just put my computer away and didn't touch it the whole time. You know, normally I'm responding to people and I'm doing this and that, and you know, every now and then I would check my phone and be like, oh, this has to be a reply responded to or whatever, and just forward to Alexis and you know, and that was it. So it was great, it was definitely a huge win.

Josh: 1:05:33

What was that like for you, alexis, being on that side? I mean, I know you've been with Sandy through all the challenges she's been through the past couple of years and everything but especially being at this point in the business, I imagine that was pretty cool for you to kind of take a little more ownership in supporting her in that business.

Alexis: 1:05:51

Yeah, I mean it was great. I thought it was going to be like. You know, my mind always goes to the worst case scenario, so I thought it was going to be like a lot more than it was. But you know, I handled it. It worked, you know, and it wasn't bad at all really. I was talking to clients I'm already familiar with, had already been in contact with when I did have to reach out to them and, plus, a lot didn't really come through too much. I was working on something that I was already previously working on, so I just kept working on that and made sure that that was done before she got back. I kept saying, okay, this has to be done before she got back. You know stuff like that, but otherwise it actually went pretty smoothly. It really did, yeah.

Sandy: 1:06:36

Now, just to be fair, I did. I um, I emailed my clients before the trip and said I'm going to be gone for the next two weeks and you know we don't have very limited access to email and stuff, so a lot of them didn't reach out for that reason. But you know that's perfect.

Josh: 1:06:49

That's what I would advise for everyone. And it's cool about that too, because you could say like if you do have to reach out, it's going to be Alexis, and like they know, cause, that way they're not like hey Sandy, and they're like Whoa Alexis. I mean, maybe they know Alexis, maybe not so well done on that yeah, yeah.

Alexis: 1:07:06

We made sure we got my email up with her, um, my email with her domain and her signature, a signature with her logo and stuff on it. So they know like I'm on the team you know kind of a thing we made sure to get that up before she left.

Josh: 1:07:20

Yeah, I'm so excited for burns and myers 2024. You guys are gonna look like a lawyer, like a law firm, burns and myers llc. Now I look, I'm so proud of both of you. I mean so, so dang cool. I remember seeing your picture, I think, sandy, you went to Washington DC prior to all of us meeting up at WordCamp and got to actually meet in person with Alexis. So, yeah, it's just a cool story, yeah.

Sandy: 1:07:51

And it was so funny because I was so nervous to meet her in real life, because it's kind of like you know, we've been doing Zoom chats and emails and all this kind of stuff, kind of like you know, we've been doing Zoom chats and emails and all this kind of stuff, but what is she going to be like in real life? Is this going to go well?

Josh: 1:08:02

And then she got out of the car and ran over with her arms wide open, gave me this big hug.

Sandy: 1:08:07

I'm like, okay, it's all good. Yeah, and she was fabulous. It gave us a really great tour of the city and yeah.

Alexis: 1:08:16

DC is pretty special, for sure, so for sure, so yeah, yeah, it was so much fun it was, it just solidified our friendship even outside of the great working relationship you know. So that's just a, that's just a side bonus that we have.

Josh: 1:08:27

And then coincidentally we met earlier later that year for WordCamp. All of us were a little pro meetup so that was even more cool for you guys because you were, you were doing, you were kind of conference buddies, right For for that one yeah.

Sandy: 1:08:38

And I think that was funny too, because at the conference there was, there was stuff going on at the same times that we both wanted to do. So we did a divide and conquer thing, like, okay, you go to that one, I go to this one. We shared notes.

Alexis: 1:08:50

Right, exactly, yeah, it was so much fun. Yeah, it was really so much fun meeting everybody too.

Josh: 1:08:55

I'm so glad you mentioned that, sandy. That's a really, really important point, I think, for anyone who, if you're roughly in the same area or even if you could fly, to try to do like a some sort of meetup, not only for just, you know, being in person, but if it is a conference, you can both learn together and and kind of work together and collaborate together, like that is a really good bonding point there, uh, to be able to, yeah, grow your business together and, yeah, if it's in the terms of a conference, it's just an, it's a great excuse to be able to get together and do dinners and hangouts along the side.

Sandy: 1:09:28

So, yeah, no bar hopping after the saturday night there, um, but yeah, I know it, it's really good. And to alexis's point earlier, um, just being able to learn from each other, like either you know, by going to a conference and sharing notes or just you know we're taking similar courses and just you know, making each other's businesses better, making each other better, designers better. You know everything, you know. That's that's truly the win, I think, in all of this and it's what I would encourage anybody who is scaling or looking to subcontract is try to find this kind of partnership where you can really, you know, have this mutual, like beneficial relationship, like where you know you just yeah, that you can learn from each other and you know make each other better.

Josh: 1:10:16

So great. I was going to ask for kind of a final thought. So that was wonderful. Sandy, alexis from your point of view, what for somebody you know, who, who maybe is getting some experience and would love to be the next Alexis for somebody's business? What would you? What would you recommend?

Alexis: 1:10:33

Um, wait, say that one more time, so you know if you were to give anybody encouragement for where you were at when you reached out to Sandy.

Josh: 1:10:41

What would you recommend or encourage them with if they want to be the next Alexis to somebody else's?

Alexis: 1:10:46

business, a really good working relationship that benefits you financially in your business, in your you know your creativity Everything is possible taste, but also mindset and interests, and you know even kind of personality. You know like similarities, as long as you guys not just get along well but just connect on. You know different things because that just helps the relationship and when you have a good relationship, even though you might go through challenges, it's always going to work itself out because you have that good core and that good bond. I think that that's really important in a good, long lasting relationship that you can rely on. You know so for so many different things, so I think that's just really important.

Josh: 1:11:57

Mic drop. Well, guys, thank you so much for coming in and just sharing. Yeah, your experience has been really fun. I've got kind of a back row seat on this, but learned a lot today with both of your perspectives from being the scaler owner like you, sandy, and then Alexis, being the designer, to lead designer, but also entrepreneur, building your own business. So I can't wait to you know, see how many people this is going to help on both sides of this relationship. So, win, win, win all around Win for Sandy, win for Alexis, win for your guys' clients and win for all of us for learning. You know, learning from you guys. So thank you for sharing everything.

Sandy: 1:12:35

Thank you, no problem.

Josh: 1:12:40

Thank you, no problem. Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun. This is great. Pro meetup 2024 or 2025, I think in April. So, uh, going to be in Columbus, so not too far from both of you guys as far as a flight.

Alexis: 1:12:50

So that's my birthday month, Is it? So I'm very yes.

Josh: 1:12:54

All right, all right. Well bar hopping doesn't need to stay in DC, so we'll see what happens.

Alexis: 1:13:01

There we go.

Josh: 1:13:02

I was going to wait till the weather warms up so we can actually like do some walk around downtown and have a, you know, have a hotel and have some some fun stuff to go do so.

Sandy: 1:13:12

Well, I've never been to Columbus, so that would be a lot of fun.

Josh: 1:13:15

I will show you guys around. It'll be a blast. We'll be able to the tables will be turned Yep.

Sandy: 1:13:21

Awesome. Thank you so much, Josh.

Josh: 1:13:23

Yeah, thanks Sandy, thanks Alessis, really appreciate you guys. Again, huge thanks to both Sandy and Alexis for being open to come on and share both of their perspectives on this. I really hope you enjoyed this one. I sure as heck did. Again, I just feel like most when you hear about scaling, there's most resources about the scaler, the owner of the business, but very rarely do you get to hear from a contractor, because sometimes what might be successful for the scaler may be a nightmare for the contractor. But Alexis and Sandy are just. I mean, I can't think of a better example on how to create a win-win with scaling a website business. So I would love to hear your thoughts on this one. I know Sandy and Alexis would as well. Leave us a comment, go to the show notes for this episode, which are going to be found at joshhallco slash 363, and drop a comment. We would love to hear from you. I'll let Sandy and Alexis know to keep an eye out for comments. If you have any questions, you're welcome to post those there and we'll try to get back to you there.

Josh: 1:14:33

And, as they both mentioned in this interview, sandy and Alexis are both founding members of my Community Web Designer Pro. Pro members are finding each other and those who are in good places and good fits with each other. As far as partnerships or collaborations, it's one of the many benefits of being a member in the community or coaching level for web designer pro. So you heard it here. This is literally what's what's happening inside of pro, so I highly recommend you take advantage of being in this incredible community. You can go to web designer procom to get all the details on that, to get my coaching and to meet Sandy and to meet Alexis and to perhaps find a partnership or collaborator of your own. Webdesignerprocom is where to join us Again.

Josh: 1:15:10

Show notes for this episode or joshhallco slash 363. Leave us a comment, leave us some takeaways, and I really am excited to hear how this helps you scale your business. Cheers, my friends. Stay subscribed, because some more doozies are on the way for the podcast. So buckle up, get ready. I hope you're enjoying what we've dished out already here in the beginning of 2025. Cheers.