Web Design Business with Josh Hall

371 - Selling and Running a Maintenance Plan of 200+ Sites with Cami MacNamara

• Josh Hall

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Web designers often have similar dreams…

Build a sustainable, freedom-based, lifestyle business.

Build a healthy, awesome client base.

Grow Monthly Recurring Revenue month after month.

Do it all while enjoying the journey.

My guest in this podcast episode has achieved all of this and more which is why I’m excited to share my conversation with Web Designer Pro™ member Cami MacNamara who’s been a professional WordPress web designer since 2002 and has grown her maintenance plan to over 200 sites!

We dive into mainly how she sells her maintenance plan and the automations she has in place to continue to run it at that level still as a happy solopreneur. We also get into how she has built her client base, gets referrals and her views on WordPress and where it is in the market today versus when she started using it over two decades ago.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/371

Big thanks to the sponsors for our upcoming Web Designer Pro CON 2025 event! We couldn't make such a top-notch event for my community without their support 🙏

17hats (for proposals, invoicing, contracts and automation)

SiteGround (for website hosting)

Termageddon (for auto-updating privacy po

Cami MacNamara:

I'm a firm believer in the trial, the free month. I really believe that it's great because you're going to be following up with that customer after you launch the website anyway. I do like a 30-day and 90-day check-in with every website or redesign that I build. But I really think that that free trial and giving them both the deluxe and the basic version is your foot in the door. They see the value and it's hard for them to understand what is a maintenance plan, what is a care plan, until they actually see the report, because they don't understand how WordPress works. You know that's for us to understand, so it's a great communication point with them.

Josh Hall:

Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. What a treat I have for you in this one, my friend. This is a conversation with Cammie McNamara, who is a member of Web Designer Pro and somebody who currently is managing over 200 websites on her website maintenance plan. Going to dive into exactly how she has sold these maintenance plans, what the offer looks like, how she's practically managing them as a WordPress designer, and all of the ins and outs of growing her MRR and just being a web designer a WordPress specifically, a WordPress designer Since 2002,. Kami is somebody who has done it right as far as building a sustainable web design business as a WordPress designer, somebody who is very community-driven and has really started to give more and more back to web designers.

Josh Hall:

So, for all those reasons and more so excited to share this conversation I had with you with her, you can check Cami out at her main website, webcamicom. I highly encourage you to go check that out as a really solid example of how to have a professional, freelancer, solopreneur site that is also, in her own ways, scalable for managing so many sites and helping so many clients. She also has a brand new newsletter called web designerits, which we'll link to as well All the show notes for this episode at joshhallco, slash 371. Let's dive in to how the heck Kami has built up a website maintenance plan and how she runs one with over 200 clients. Kami, I'm so excited to chat with you for many reasons, one of which is I love, love, love, love, love. Talking to people who have been in this industry for a long time.

Cami MacNamara:

That would be me.

Josh Hall:

When you joined Pro, and then I met you pretty soon after at WordCamp 23. And then I had no idea your background and your backstory and we just happened to be seated together, next to next to me at dinner. So I really got to find out what you're up to and I'm so excited to chat with you. So how long have you been in the web design and or WordPress game?

Cami MacNamara:

So this month is actually my 23rd anniversary of having my business. I actually started a school for web design in 2000. So it's actually been 25 years since I discovered web design, and I was introduced to WordPress around 2007, 2008. I can't exactly remember, but it's about the time that clients started asking me to connect their WordPress blog or a blogger blog to their static website that I had built. And you know, I remember having a panic like, oh my gosh, people are going to be able to build their own websites. They won't need me at all. And I soon figured out that they still needed me, and by 2010, I decided to start building everything in WordPress.

Cami MacNamara:

And I'm so glad I picked WordPress and not Blogger.

Josh Hall:

My health. Things have not changed in 23 years. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's great. It is funny. Those conversations back then literally have not changed, even with AI. It's like, well, good luck, let's see how that goes with clients trying to build their own website. So a good reminder that the tools have changed, but the problems have not at all.

Cami MacNamara:

Right right. People are still running their businesses and dealing with their website as a problem. They're just looking for help with managing their websites.

Josh Hall:

Well, one thing that sparked this conversation is your maintenance plan. I think it was in the admin bar, because I'm just a creeper in that group.

Cami MacNamara:

It's just one of the areas that I kind of keep in touch. That's such a great group and I have been a member for a long time and just watched it explode and I really don't know how Kyle manages having something that large.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, that's a whole. Yeah, I mean just a lot of people, 10,000 plus, you know. Yeah, you know, and he's really doing a lot Like I ran a W web designers group that's over 25,000 people, but it was different in the way of like he really like. It wasn't a community, it was a support group. What I ran, he is running a large community which is all game, all that to say, like I do.

Josh Hall:

it's it's one of the places that is go to for me for news and just to kind of get a pulse on things. And I forget the post. I should have pulled it up in preparation for this, but I think it was talking about maintenance plans and somebody losing some clients. And then you popped in with just like such a sound reminder for people to have a long-term mindset when it comes to building slow, steady, recurring revenue with a website maintenance plan, and I was just like virtually cheering as I saw it because I think there was a lot of negative comments and a lot of bashing of clients, but you came in as like a voice of reason and it is just a testament to a seasoned professional and a seasoned business owner who knows you know like you have to have a certain mindset.

Josh Hall:

So I would love to dive into specifically your maintenance plan. I'm sure we could talk about a thousand topics, but when did you start your maintenance plan?

Cami MacNamara:

I started it in 2015 and I have quite the origin story for it. So you, you and BNI in common. I was very excited when I joined your group and found out that you had been a BNI member before, because it's been such a huge part of my growth, and I joined in 2010. And by 2014,. I was so busy because everybody in BNI needs a website and I just kept adding clients, and back then WordPress didn't update as many times as it does now and suddenly I noticed that everybody's plugins weren't updated and I ended up with 44 new website builds or redesigns in progress at one time.

Josh Hall:

Wow, I thought I was maxed out at 2444.

Cami MacNamara:

And I was falling apart Like it was. It was the worst month I ever had of business because I didn't have time to invoice and luckily I was in BNI. So I immediately hired an organizer to help me with my office and a marketing coach who is still one of my closest friends. In fact, I just launched her a new website a few months ago and I had seen a video by Troy Dean that was a free webinar about a maintenance plan, a care plan, and I hired my friend who was the marketing coach to help me implement that and it took us from March till September.

Cami MacNamara:

I launched it and I very carefully only launched it to a few clients a month and just making sure that I could manage what I was doing, and I'd signed up for ManageWP, which is still a tool that I absolutely adore using and it's the most important plug-in in my life because it's the biggest moneymaker right and I was able to start implementing those care plans very slowly, and over the last 10 years, I've built up a base income with it, and so that's where my comment to the person who is having so many problems with you know, if you have a base income, you are able to not say yes to every project and not end up with 44 of them. I generally run now between 15 and 25. And I'm pretty comfortable with that.

Josh Hall:

What did you do? So? Did you launch your maintenance plan shortly after that huge wave of clients? How did you get through that?

Cami MacNamara:

Well, I just plugged along and I'm an open book with my clients and explained I've kind of got myself in a pickle. This is going to take a little bit longer than expected. Having the organizer come into my office and help me organize and help me organize my tasks was super helpful. So I still, to this day, start out with a daily work journal where I'm writing down what my most important things are to complete, and if I only complete the first one while I'm moving things along and as.

Cami MacNamara:

I told you before, I have a little jar where I put in post-it notes every day of what I'm accomplishing, and so I'm always trying to like pat myself on the back for getting things done, even when I did. I'll never get it all done, so I'm just happy to move it forward and you know, that kind of self-taught goes a long way.

Josh Hall:

Is that a key to avoiding burnout or getting through burnout? Just moving something, moving it along, even if it's just one thing?

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, I think it's a huge part of it, because you know I am never going to have a zero inbox. Because you know I am never going to have a zero inbox. I am. I'm always going to have incoming requests and you know, I sort of know my limits with stuff and I, instead of saying I can start right now, I say I can start in three weeks, and like that amount of time gives me time to move something off the docket. I think a mistake that a lot of web designers make is like OK, I can only handle five projects at a time, and then they shut things off and then suddenly the incoming isn't happening. So you always have to feed the machine and just because you can't start tomorrow doesn't mean you can't start in two weeks and most people that are really interested in working with you are going to wait.

Josh Hall:

So much gold Kami. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Josh Hall:

I'm so aligned with that mindset because I've did the same thing. I see so many designers have a booked out model and I think there's a time and place for that, I guess, especially if you're doing like VIP days. But I totally agree when a client wants to work with you, they don't want to see I'm booked out for three months, they're like, well, I would move on, I would move on to somebody else. But what you did, I kind of call it space and stagger. It's what I teach in my business course, which is get paid immediately but tell them all right, we're going to start in three weeks, but for now here's your work, or there's things you can do very quickly that are not time intensive to get the ball rolling. Or just let them know like we're going to start in three weeks or four weeks. So gosh, I couldn't agree more. I mean, there is a risk of you do get swamped sometimes, but it's a good problem to have, at least when you have a lot of projects.

Cami MacNamara:

You know I I'm, I'll just admit you know I find myself in the office on the weekends, not all the time, but you know it most often on a Sunday because I'm trying to prep for the week. I'm already in there anyway and I might do a little bit of catch up, but I adjust to what the workflow is. But I still make sure I know I'm never going to have that 44 number again.

Cami MacNamara:

That was insane, that was too much and that was a product of me not charging enough and you know there were other factors that led to that and, as you know, in BNI you're trying to be accommodating to all the fellow members and people that you're doing business with there and you know it was a good lesson in what my limit was.

Josh Hall:

It's interesting that you went with a business organizer versus just starting to hire, because I would probably gravitate towards, like, hiring a junior or immediately scaling in some sense. Is it still primarily you, or do you have?

Cami MacNamara:

It's only me and I am very happy with that setup. So in my before web designer times, I worked for a retail company here in Seattle called Jay Jacobs and I was an allocation analyst. There were a whole bunch of us working together and three of us started our own business together as a partnership. And while I'm still close friends with these people, I realized that all the money was split three ways and all the efforts it just in my mind, made me think I'd really like to do this on my own.

Cami MacNamara:

Now did I think I would do it on my own forever? Probably not, but my colleagues that do have teams have shared financial spreadsheets with me and while they're making three times more money, we make about the same amount of money, and I don't have to deal with all of the uh things that go along with managing a team. Plus, I really like to do the design, so a lot of times people will farm out some of the development and design, but that's my favorite thing to do.

Josh Hall:

Well, you know.

Cami MacNamara:

I yeah.

Josh Hall:

I was just going to say you're a great example of a solopreneur who's, who's not burned out and is is doing it right in the way of I call it scaling your way. I would say, when the time comes, the course is. You know, you're a member of pro, so I actually think it they give it be interested. Did you? Have you gone through the course yet? Scale your way.

Cami MacNamara:

Well, okay. Well, that's one of the problems with doing everything on your own. Your outside time is limited, so I I always hop in there like once a month and work on something, but I probably the person who takes the longest to finish a course.

Josh Hall:

I actually the only reason I say that is because you can, definitely, and you're a shining example. I mean, this is what I teach in the courses like scaling doesn't mean a huge team. Managed WP, as you mentioned, is a form of scaling. It's a form of automating. It's multiplying you with a tool, a process, a workflow, and it's actually the first step I recommend before ever hiring. Something is like what can you do with a tool like ManageWP to replicate yourself? So you're already ahead of the game.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, your systems are a huge part of it. And then there's other things, too, like having somebody clean your house once a month or having your groceries delivered, or you know. There are small little things that you can do at the household level that free up your time Right.

Josh Hall:

And.

Cami MacNamara:

I've had a virtual assistant in the past. That was helpful for a while and but I had my parents pass away at the same time within 11 months of each other, in 2022. And for about five years, I traveled to California every I don't know every three to four months to help my sister, as my parents were aging and moving to assisted living and things, and I just found it easier to have no one to delegate to, to just I took my work with me and it made it a lot easier for me just to be the sole person in charge of all of it.

Josh Hall:

Well, a big key to you sustaining this is your, your stable recurring revenue. As you mentioned, you have a maintenance plan that's over well a decade now for your maintenance plan.

Cami MacNamara:

So congrats, 10 years for your maintenance plan. That's awesome 10 years in September.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, heck, yeah, oh. I would love to see a celebration post in that for pro, because that's something to do, that's something to celebrate for sure, and the cool thing about that, as you mentioned, is you don't have to say yes to all the projects because you have some stable income. The way you rolled it out is interesting, because I rolled mine out to everybody and overnight had over 20 clients sign on, basically, and then in the span of a week I went from zero MRR to like over $2,000 MRR and I was like why didn't I do this years ago? And I'm sure you had a similar feeling. But are you glad that you rolled it out slow and steady? And how did that roll out?

Cami MacNamara:

Well, I'm very glad because it gave me time as a solopreneur to adjust my work schedule and to know what I could handle and to learn how much time it was going to take me to deal with this, and back then I was sending out my reports manually, you know. So now in managed WP I have them go out automatically, even though I'm doing a review before they all go, and I'm very happy with the way it was. I think it took me three months, or three or four months to get to 20 people. By the end of the first year I had 70.

Cami MacNamara:

I now manage over 200 websites. Some of them are clients that have more than one. So I think I'm in the 180 clients that have signed up. So I'm happy with it and it just gradually grew over time. And, believe it or not, my original folks are grandfathered in for the original price, which is very low, and I have thought about raising that, and people seem a little on edge about the economy right now, so I'm just going to let it ride and all the new people come in. They pay a more reasonable price, so it kind of levels itself out Well.

Josh Hall:

The good news. I don't know if you saw this, but Sandy, another member of pro, recently did that. She posted. I don't know if you saw her post, it was just a couple weeks ago, but she raised her rates across the board and it worked out really well and it actually led to some other other increases. So I would definitely, I would encourage you for sure, mainly because it depends on where the profitability is like. If it gets to the point where you're not making any money, it's like you know, even if it leads to other work, like you've got to make some some profit in there, as long as it's not you know something where you're losing money, yeah, it's all fine. Yeah, I'm all good with you know something where you're losing money.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, I'm all good with that.

Josh Hall:

You know, what you could do is just like you rolled out the maintenance plan, though you could roll out the increases, I would have to do it that way.

Cami MacNamara:

I have to do it that way because I can't handle all the admin all at once.

Josh Hall:

Right.

Cami MacNamara:

So that's another reason why I rolled it out, because on the admin side I couldn't have. Uh, if I would have gotten, you know, if I would have sent it to everybody back then and gotten 70 people to sign up immediately, I would have been where I was with the 44 projects, so that kind of was a good lesson for me that I have to incrementally do my admin work as well.

Josh Hall:

That's a great point. I love that approach to have just incrementally. You know, maybe three or four clients this month get the, get the notice that things are raising and there's a lot of ways to go about it. But this isn't just directed towards you, kami, but everybody like I can't stress enough that rate increases are expected with any sort of subscription.

Cami MacNamara:

I raise my rates for new clients. You know, every couple of years it's just I, and that has been, is something that has been a way for me to recognize the clients who have been with me the longest and to make them feel special. So I have clients that have been with me since I started who weren't in WordPress, Right. So I mean I have clients going back to 2004, 2005 that are still clients. So we're talking many, many years and if they have me do new projects, the new pricing is in place.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha, yeah, and the only reason I mentioned that is, I mean I don't know if I have a single subscription that hasn't gone up. I mean it's it's really kind of like Netflix goes up, Disney Plus goes up.

Cami MacNamara:

Mortgage payments goes up every year mortgage payments go up every year.

Josh Hall:

You know, like every uh god, medical insurance premiums go up every year, like we are kind of used to that. All that to say like I I think for you, cammy, when the time feels right and you want to give that a go, I totally understand wanting to keep grandfathered clients, and you know, in a rate. But there does come the point where I mean even managedP ends up going up over time so your prices go up as a business. So all that to say for anyone who's feeling like they can't raise the rates. It is expected at some point.

Cami MacNamara:

But I know you'll do it in a way that is great for your clients and still gives them the best deal. Yes, of course.

Josh Hall:

That's really cool. Now, how has your plan changed in a decade? Did you offer what were you offering 10 years ago? That may be different.

Cami MacNamara:

You know it really hasn't changed that much. So I have a basic plan and then I have a deluxe plan and basically in ManageWP I'd have the bare basics for the basic plan, which is the report, the backup, the virus scan and the updates and then, if they want, seo reporting, performance reporting, the other things that you can turn on in ManageWP. That's deluxe, and so those are my two levels and I just keep it really simple like that. Now, last year I did offer like economy where if they don't want to report for me but they want me to do the backups and everything else, I offered like a lower price for that for those clients who just I work with a lot of small businesses. So you know I want them in a care plan no matter what, because it's better for them and it's better for me. So my and I'm like 98% of new clients adopting a care plan.

Josh Hall:

They're very affordably priced. I'm looking at it now they're all under a hundred. You've got economy at 40, basic at 65 and then deluxe at 90 per month. Now, one big difference here from what I teach and what I did is that do these include any time of yours per month?

Cami MacNamara:

No, I don't include time, because I don't have a lot of time to give as a solopreneur and I there, I have tried that in the past and I have a couple of clients that are still I I'm still doing that for, but because it's just me, I do not have the ability to to manage that, which is fine. They just come to me with their requests and I bill them hourly for it.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha. Do they get like a discounted rate as a current client or a maintenance plan client?

Cami MacNamara:

Well, they're locked into whatever rate they signed with me for. So many of them are at a discounted rate compared to what I charge right now.

Josh Hall:

I mean for like your hourly rate. Like if they say, hey, kami, we've got a few website updates we need to make and you do like a retainer of hours as a maintenance plan client, do they get any sort of perks?

Cami MacNamara:

I'm just curious how no, no, it's just my hourly rate. Whatever the contracted hourly rate is, I don't charge a one hour minimum, so many of my clients are only asking me to do a couple hundred dollars worth of work a year.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha. Yeah, this is great and that's what there's just so many ways to do this and for you like, it's obviously working if you're able. And the key to managing 200 plus maintenance plan clients is, like you said, the time factor is not an issue here. They could do it separately, but that is how you build good recurring revenue at a lower rate at scale. Is you got your automated systems? I imagine you're probably doing the same things week to week, month to month, to where you get a good feel for how long this is going. Yeah, for me personally, I loved having the hour. Well, I had two different versions of the plan. One was like yours no hour and then one they could do up to an hour. But I found that, like 90% of the clients I was managing which at my top, was 75 sites in our plan, okay, and we did not have that many clients utilizing the hour some way.

Cami MacNamara:

I still don't have very many clients that fall into that type. I have a gym that falls into that and they are somebody who is on a retainer with me.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha For that, so I think I think I'm flexible.

Cami MacNamara:

When I do have that client that is coming to me every single month, it's like, hey, I would reach out to them and say we should probably do it this way and I'll give you a bit of a discount and I'll just roll it into your care plan. But it's very minuscule compared to the regular care plan clients.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha, how do you sell your plan? It does help, I think, for sure, that they are very affordably priced, so it seems like a no brainer as long as someone understands WordPress and you're there for them as kind of their support, cami Um, but how do you?

Cami MacNamara:

Cami cares. Oh, that's beautiful.

Josh Hall:

Oh, you have such a perfect name for that.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah.

Josh Hall:

That's beautiful. Kami care when and how do you sell your plan.

Cami MacNamara:

It is on my estimate for any new website build and I share the three levels and I also share. I also offer, like content support and SEO support. You know on page SEO support as separate lines on my estimate. So there's the build or redesign, and then I have all these optional items and I give them a free month of care, every single client.

Josh Hall:

And you know.

Cami MacNamara:

That's why I pretty much have like a 98%. It's very rare that somebody turns it down.

Josh Hall:

Now I'm curious about the percentage split between the three tiers. We don't need to know exactly, it's mostly basic.

Cami MacNamara:

Most people are in the middle.

Josh Hall:

Interesting.

Cami MacNamara:

So that's where most people land. Some of my larger clients that are non-profits and you know bigger businesses are more interested in deluxe care. But for most of my smaller clients and you being in B&I you know what that means it's estheticians and you know that kind of small service businesses in a local economy. They're just. They want the basics taken care of.

Josh Hall:

Now this is fascinating, Kim, because in so top of mind, the last weekly coaching call we had in pro, we had a few members say that their middle tiers were not selling for care plans. Because in so top of mind, the last weekly coaching call we had in pro, we had a few members say that their middle tiers were not selling for care plans because they were like right in between a care plan and a growth style plan. But yours is. So I would think, and what I see typically with three tiers is that most people either go for the top tier or they're just like well, I'll just pay the bare minimum. What makes people choose the basic plan that you have for 65 over the economy plan for 40?

Cami MacNamara:

Because my thought would be that most clients are like okay, because I'm giving them, I'm giving them the deluxe one for their free month, right? And so I I give them the deluxe. I give them both deluxe and basic as the report. So like, here's what you get with basic, here's what you get with um deluxe and with the economy you don't get the report. And I think they see the report, they want the report, they go. In that instance the basic becomes the lower level gotcha, that's genius.

Josh Hall:

Okay, so that once you complete a project, that little 30-day free trial, you show them this is what we could do month to month.

Cami MacNamara:

And then I imagine that's like, yeah, I would love to have that month to month and I think that they see like, oh, a backup every the virus scan every day and she updated like 14 plugins. You know that report really shows them the value of having somebody do that.

Josh Hall:

And, as you and me we know as Managed WP users, the report goes out and says all the updates that you did, like you just mentioned the plugin updates, the theme updates but we do that in bulk in ManageWP as I'm sure you do as well to where you could do bulk updates across all the sites. So for the client it looks like you individually did that, but they don't need to know that you're doing this in an automated way, in an efficient way that does things in bulk, which is how you're able to manage over 200 sites.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, and I guess I'm still old school with it. I still go into each update and see who needs it and I try to decide it's going to be okay. A lot of updates. I will update only my website first and make sure it works, so I probably spend a little more time doing those automated updates. I never just click the button and have them all go, so I do it on Mondays and Thursdays each week, so I'm not doing it every single day, but they see the consistency on their report in terms of having updates done and, like I said, wordpress has so many updates these days.

Cami MacNamara:

It just you know it is really ballooned compared to what it was in the early days.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, I recommend and echo that same process where you update your stuff first or maybe be like a couple of example sites that would you know would require some updates, and then you can roll it out.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, Especially like with gravity forms and some of the plugins that I have had, just like you have like, oh, the next updates coming out in like four hours, because a whole bunch of things broke.

Josh Hall:

So you know, it's always good to test it on your own first, yeah, yeah, for sure, and I think you and I, um, we, I imagine we probably follow the same approach with updates with WordPress, where there's there's three digits, there's a, you know, there's like one point, two, point five, version, and it's like if the point five, the one on the end, is updated, that's probably no big deal. The middle digit is like, let's test this out. The middle digit is like, let's test this out If it goes from version one to version 2.0, that's like we definitely want. We don't want to update 200 sites from version one to 2.0 for Gravity Forms. So that's, that's what always saved my butt during those times.

Cami MacNamara:

And that's why it's good to be part of communities like yours, because other web designers can like say hey, fyi, you know, I just did this update and it broke four sites. So you know, I I try to stay in contact with other designers when some big updates are happening.

Josh Hall:

Now I feel like the if it ain't broke, don't fix. It is probably a part of how you've been sustainable for so long and been able to last as an entrepreneur, a solopreneur, for as long as you have. I am curious have you done any additions to the plan, Like, have you implemented or thought about term again, privacy policies? Are there any other things that you've added over the last few years, especially in the wake of things like accessibility and privacy and optimization and all my goodness?

Cami MacNamara:

Not to my plan, but I do subscribe to my web audit and I have been doing that for about three years and I and I audit clients, websites. Uh, like I, I kind of have a wish list of clients that need a redesign and I will give them a free audit. That starts the discussion and I always get a new redesign out of that. And so with that audit is all the accessibility, the SEO, and it just becomes part of either a full redesign or you know what you call a an SEO boost or that type of work where I'm going in and helping them fine-tune their website the performance, the accessibility, the legal pages and all of that. So my web audit has been an indispensable tool for me to get that conversation going with my clients.

Josh Hall:

Genius. Do you do that structured in any way? Do you do it like once a quarter?

Cami MacNamara:

I have a spreadsheet going. You know I did do and I posted and you had somebody on last summer who talked about doing strategy sessions with their clients. I forget her name, but it was brilliant or was it Lisa? About the quarterly strategy calls yes, yeah, so I did that and I had like it was all. It was overwhelming Like I booked three days, I only had.

Cami MacNamara:

I only had one day open and within three hours they were all taken, so I had to add two more days and I quickly learned that well, okay, I need to do this differently. I can't send it to all my clients in my newsletter at one time it was super effective and I used that strategy Like, okay, let's do an audit, let's meet back and go over that, and from that I think I earned about I don't know $12,000 in redesigns just last summer.

Josh Hall:

Oh, that's awesome, I need to make sure we relay this to Lisa. She would love to hear how.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, it was great.

Josh Hall:

This is so great, kami. This is one reason I love having Web Designer Pros on the podcast is because I don't hear about all this often, unless you would happen to you know, post it or you know, let me know. So this is really cool because, yeah, that talk we did last year with Lisa, which was a training, also in Web Designer Pro, to hear how that played out for you, is really cool. And look, most people are managing like 12 to 20 clients, 200 plus. I totally see how your spots would be filled very fast.

Cami MacNamara:

And I think it's also something to note for experienced web designers who might be listening that you know, just because you're experienced doesn't mean you can't learn something new, and every time I'm part of your group or listening to one of your podcasts with somebody who might just be starting out or hasn't been in business as long as I have, that does not mean they don't have something to teach me, and so I have really appreciated all of the interviews and things that you do on your podcast, just because it's helped me learn new, new things as a seasoned web designer.

Josh Hall:

That's great feedback. Kami Does your. So are you doing quarterly strategy calls as a plan no I?

Cami MacNamara:

didn't, then I haven't been able to do it since.

Josh Hall:

Got it.

Cami MacNamara:

But, as I said, I kind of do outreach as the clients come into me and I keep a spreadsheet of who I know needs. Like I have a list of people who need redesigns this year and instead of doing the outreach that I did before, I'm just going to reach out individually so I can control that influx of interest.

Josh Hall:

Are you doing anything else to stay top of mind, other than the monthly reports that go out? Do you have a monthly newsletter?

Cami MacNamara:

I have a monthly newsletter and I have been doing that since 2018. It's become a huge part of my business. Back when my parents were alive my clients I was always educating them about my mom and dad, and when I went to their home, they had no internet and I had to drive to Starbucks in town they're, you know, every morning at like 430 and get work done and, and so I and I told my clients you know, I really only need you to get in touch with me for dire emergencies, because I really need to be present with my parents, and they were so understanding and if I didn't do that newsletter once a month, they were like, hey, I didn't hear about your folks, how are they? And so it really brought us closer and so I do a newsletter once a month for my clients. I also will throw them something that if there's an emergency with a hosting situation, I will send information out to them as well.

Josh Hall:

Cause I do offer hosting.

Cami MacNamara:

It's just not part of my website, Like that's something that I offer um in the process of getting to know the client, am I going to be a good, are they going to be a good fit for me to manage their hosting? Or I'm steering them to the hosting that I want them to be in, but they're in their own account, so I kind of keep that under wraps.

Josh Hall:

So hosting is not a part of your care plans.

Cami MacNamara:

It's not. It's a separate line item that I do kind of without it being public on my website. I don't want people reaching out to me for website hosting only. I only offer website hosting to clients and specifically most clients that I've built their websites, so I know I'm not going to have a lot of problems with hosting.

Josh Hall:

Would you take on? Or if you had a client that you designed a site for and they wanted to take their hosting to a terrible host? We don't need to name names unless we want to. Yeah, would you do a care plan for them on terrible hosting, or would you deny that?

Cami MacNamara:

Well, we have a talk about that. Most of my clients take my advice right and I honestly have not been in that situation. The situation is usually the opposite. They come to me on terrible hosting and I go ahead and take them in and you know, it isn't long before I can show them that they have terrible hosting because now they're getting their care plan and maybe I'll turn on the performance piece for one report and just say, hey, you know, I saw this and I wanted to share it. I do customize those reports sometimes and not send everybody out at the same time and I'll go in and put my pitch in the report, and so I'm pretty successful at getting them to move.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha, that makes sense. Yeah, it's always a big question I get is yeah, should I take on that client that goes to a host where we're like, oh, because it's very hard to maintain a website when the foundation is rocky, right, but you know what?

Cami MacNamara:

Sometimes you end up being a hero in that situation. So I took on a client who has a 6,000 page, very popular beer blog here in Washington state and um, I will not name the hosting company that they were at, but it was a nightmare for him and for me, and after about three months I'm like look, we need to get you a new hosting. He moved to the host of my choice. He's never been happier, and so you know, that is the kind of story I want my clients to tell other people and that's what leads to referrals.

Josh Hall:

Great point, great great point. When, real quick, to backtrack on your monthly reports in your newsletter. Do you stagger those? When do you send those? Do you like, do you do your?

Cami MacNamara:

Monthly report goes out on the first or the second and the newsletter goes out on the 10th.

Josh Hall:

So you know, that's kind of my another, another great strategy yeah, because you wouldn't want the monthly report and the newsletter go out like in the day of each other.

Cami MacNamara:

So yeah, and if I, if I make the newsletter go too long in the middle of the month, I'm never quite hitting that. So it just I don't know why it works, but it does.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha, do you ever lead with your care plans for selling, or is it usually a new website design?

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, I have a handful of people who come to me looking just for a care plan, and they're usually a referral from someone. So somebody comes in and I will uh, these days I make them uh go through an audit first, so I will charge them for an audit that gives me a look under the hood to tell me if one they are hacked, or two, if I want to work with it and over the years I.

Cami MacNamara:

I work with beaver builder now but but in my career I've worked with Dibby Elementor. Just kind of a wide range of different page builders or just straight up, you never know, what you're getting Like somebody's website could be classic editor in Aveda or you know it's in Infold or just you know people go way back. They're still in WP Bakery, those kinds of things, and if I feel like I'm going to be able to work this into a redesign, I'll take them. Yeah.

Josh Hall:

Got it. I was just about to ask about your tool stack and whether you would take on sites that have different themes, or something like that.

Cami MacNamara:

As long as I get a peek under the hood first, I'll do it and I have said no right. I'm like you know, this just is too heavy. I'm not huge into WooCommerce Like I do small WooCommerce sites, but if I get in and it's a very complicated setup I have a lot of colleagues and I refer to my colleagues. So I am I that givers gain for BNI. That's a huge part of my life and I have colleagues for Shopify, e-commerce. You know big e-commerce, that type of thing, so I'll pass that person on to somebody else. I never leave somebody without a referral to somebody else if they come to me and I'm not a good fit. I also think that is a very good rule to have as a designer, because no matter who that person is and if you work with them or not, you want them to have that good story to tell about you.

Josh Hall:

So many good business lessons in this. I also love your approach of non-sleazy upsells.

Josh Hall:

This is how I view the way you'll take somebody on and recommend better hosting or a different theme or a redesign, like you're doing a lot of things that are very clever, upsell, upsells in in the way, without saying like, oh, we don't touch that, we don't do that, and then obviously it's working. And I do love that you have an honest and integral approach on like not doing that, or we don't touch that, and obviously it's, it's served you well, most importantly for sustainability. Um.

Cami MacNamara:

I owe that to my parents.

Josh Hall:

My parents were great Credit is deal. Have you had any waves of growth with your plan? Have you ever had months where there's just a ton of people that signed up, or has it always been pretty steady up and to the right over the last?

Cami MacNamara:

10 years. You know it's pretty steady. There are ebbs and flows in, I think, people reaching out for web design, definitely during COVID. I didn't see as many signups or I didn't do as many websites during COVID and was relying on redesigns. And I did get a few new projects, but only after things started to lighten up in terms of you know, regulations and stuff like that. But it was also a busy time helping people put the banners on their websites and I gave everyone a 50% discount on anything they needed. That right after the shutdown and I had a couple clients reach out and say they couldn't afford their care plan anymore and I just said you know what, no worries, it's on me for the next 12 months. And then you just tell me how you're doing after that.

Josh Hall:

Oh wow, that's awesome.

Cami MacNamara:

That went a long way. So sometimes you know when you're understanding and can be giving, it will come back to you understanding and can be giving.

Josh Hall:

it will come back to you. What about ongoing churn rate? How do you have any backup plans or like, or strategies or templates or scripts for when somebody says we don't really need the plan or I just don't understand the value? What's your approach to to trying to keep people on the plan? Are you pretty quick to be like, all right, no big deal. What's your?

Cami MacNamara:

process. I'll be honest, that doesn't happen. I don't have that happen. I think I'm giving I'm giving them enough value that it doesn't happen. I will have clients uh, step down from it when they retire, like I. I lose clients when they close their business, um, or occasionally when they sell their business and that person already has somebody in place. But outside of that one little time frame during COVID, I do not have people cancel their care plan and maintain their business with me. I think it's my pricing that makes that happen. Think it's my pricing that makes that happen. So because I'm modestly priced or moderately priced, it's not killing them to have that payment every month.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, the baseline. I learned this with the new structure of Web Designer Pro. When we launched the tiers recently, I realized that a lot of people were dropping out when it was just $200 a month and that was the only option. A lot of people were churning and dropping simply because it was just out of their price range, especially for new designers. And now what I've realized with the courses tier which, at the time of recording this, is only 50 bucks a month, 49 a month what I've realized is like, similar to you, I've tried to make a no brainer, low barrier recurring revenue option. That way, you know, unless they just don't want, unless they just don't move forward or unless they're, you know, for some reason not getting something from it, there's no reason not to have access to the courses in the pro podcast feed and the couple other bonuses that people get in the courses tier. So I've learned the power of that too by just having a low end offer. That is a base recurring revenue. It may not be the main recurring revenue, but it's a base.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, I think it's helpful. It's like when you play Monopoly. There were the people who always just wanted park place and boardwalk and that's all they were going for. Meanwhile, I'm over here on the saint charles place side and I've got a hotel on every side and it's not the highest price, it's not the lowest, but you know people, um, people are always landing there, right yeah, a lot of really smart things we've covered here.

Josh Hall:

Cammy, cammy, care that's such a great term that you have for your plan.

Cami MacNamara:

One of my clients came up with that it wasn't me, so isn't that how the best names come to play?

Josh Hall:

I mean you. You probably saw some of my divi tutorials and stuff. I was known as the the yoda of divi for years. Oh, that's great. Somebody just called me that in my facebook group. They were like you are really the yoda of divi. And years Somebody just called me that in my Facebook group. They were like you are really the Yoda of Divi. And I was like oh, I was like ashamed of myself as a Star Wars fan Cause. I was like how the hell did I not come up with that? But also I'm completely taking that and ripping that off.

Cami MacNamara:

So yes, completely. I have one client who a couple of years ago, was signing me up with a user account on her own and she sent it to me and it was Cammie in my corner was my username and I thought that was great too.

Josh Hall:

Well, this has been great, Cammie. A lot of really great things covered here Solid business principles that can be applied to not only support plans but growth plans, and just, I really, really enjoy your approach to to serving clients the way you do. I know it's very personal, I know it's very genuine and integral and, um, I think you're a shining beacon of hope for people who want to do this for decades.

Cami MacNamara:

Uh, you've really well thank you, and I just I have to tell you how much I've enjoyed your group and I get so much out of your podcast. I listened to it a lot cause I've enjoyed your group and I get so much out of your podcast. I listen to it a lot because I'm walking in my neighborhood all the time and someday I'm going to finish your course.

Josh Hall:

Which one Scale or business.

Cami MacNamara:

I'm just doing your basic course right now and then you know, but I it's worth every penny to be a member and you know I'm in the community level. I really. You know I'm not in there as often as I would like to be, but when I am I really enjoyed it and I think you have a great group Happy to be a part of it.

Josh Hall:

Oh well, thank you, kami. You are a huge part of it and again, you know this. This conversation is really. It's going to prompt me to recommend that everyone check out Kami's site, just with with what you're doing, because I think a lot of people right now are veering away from don't give up your support plans because, as you well know and a lot of people find this out the hard way people turn on and off marketing plans and they'll ramp up and down additional work and retainers, but you don't want them to veer away from your ongoing support, your base recurring revenue. So you are just a good example of that.

Cami MacNamara:

Well, thank you. And a maintenance plan isn't just for them, it's for me and because, if their plugins are updated and you know everything is being monitored, it's a lot easier to clean up a hack that you find the day after it happens than one that's been going on for eight months. And you know for those who have been in business long enough, know you know one or two hacks in a month can be very disruptive to your workflow. So I look at it like they're enrolling in a care plan and it's a benefit to me as well as it is to them.

Josh Hall:

One final question here for you, cammie, but real quick, you have. I'm going to make sure we link your site, of course, so people can see your plan live, but you are also in the business of. We're not even in the business, but you're helping other web designers. I love that. You're really active and pro. And then also just the wider WordPress community when would you like folks to go? You've got a couple different brands, so tell us about what you're up to as far as where folks can go to connect with you and learn more from you.

Cami MacNamara:

Sure. So in 2018, I started a Facebook group called Web Cami Cafe. That's basically just web designers who are personal friends, but also it's grown and I have 180 people in there. It's really kind of a networking group and a support group. We don't have any structured posting, we just communicate with each other. So that's one place to check out. And at webcammiecafecom, I've been blogging about running my business since 2018. What grew from that is last year I started a newsletter and it's called web designer habits and it's at web designer habitscom. Once a week, I send a small, tiny habit to work on in your business, because I truly believe that the best way to manage your business is one tiny habit at a time. That way, you're not overwhelmed with trying to adopt too many things. So those are two places people can check me out.

Josh Hall:

I can't believe that you got that domain name and you didn't have to pay a premium. I'm still shocked that webdesignershabitscom was available.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah, no, I have. I have 180 domain names. I have a lot of ideas, so a lot of different versions. I have WP habits and habits WP and you know.

Josh Hall:

I have?

Cami MacNamara:

I have quite a few.

Josh Hall:

It makes sense. You've been at it, you know, since early thousands, so you know again a lot of ideas that you want to make sure you you get the headstart on so that's right. Last quick question here, kami what is probably the best sales tip for selling a maintenance plan that you've learned? You've sold over. You know hundreds now. So if somebody's either early on selling maintenance plans or just getting started, or maybe they're established but are finally launching a support plan, what's a selling tip that has helped you?

Cami MacNamara:

Well, I'm a firm believer in the trial, the free month. I really believe that it's great because you're going to be following up with that customer after you launch the website. Anyway. I do like a 30-day and 90-day check-in with every website or redesign that I build. But I really think that that free trial and giving them both the deluxe and the basic version is your foot in the door. They see the value and it's hard for them to understand what is a maintenance plan, what is a care plan, until they actually see the report.

Cami MacNamara:

Because they don't understand how WordPress works. You know that's that's for us to understand, so it's a great communication point with them.

Josh Hall:

Gaby, this has been awesome. I really have enjoyed chatting with you and then getting a. And behind the scenes or behind the what am I looking for Behind the curtain, behind the scenes approach to seeing how this works?

Cami MacNamara:

It's really nice and I hope that you're going to be at WordCamp US this year. And you know, I hope it works out for you, and if it doesn't work out this year, I'm always going to be at WordCamp US. So I'm sure our paths will cross again.

Josh Hall:

That is the plan. It's penciled in. It is penciled in Traveling Gosh, I wish there's just no, I don't think there's any direct flights from Columbus, so it's like a full day of travel with our current season of having three kids under six. Yeah, like a couple of days away is cool, but, man, once we get past three or four days it's tough.

Cami MacNamara:

So that time frame is a little odd to right at the end of August for parents. So for me it's easy it's a three-hour drive.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, well, I'm hoping I was going to say yeah, I know you came out east last time.

Cami MacNamara:

I did I try to make them tall? I first went to WordCamp US in 2018 as part of GoDaddy's team. I was their first pro ambassador and I will. I will go from now on. It's too much fun.

Josh Hall:

Yeah Well, you're a great example of what makes WordPress great too. Just, uh, it's just good folk, it's good people. So, yeah Well, cammie, thank you so much. I'm going to. I can't wait to share this with the world. I'll see you in pro and, uh, I think the biggest congrats is 10 years. Congrats on 10 years here soon for your plan.

Cami MacNamara:

Yeah.

Josh Hall:

Thank you, it's, it's, uh, it feels good. Awesome, kami. Well, thank you so much, uh, until next time. Really appreciate your time.

Cami MacNamara:

Thanks again.

Josh Hall:

Full of gold, this combo. I really hope you enjoyed this one as much as I did having it with Kami. I love learning from folks who have been in this industry for a long time and Kami, as I mentioned on the outset of this, she's done it right, shining example of how to have a sustainable business. I'm sure you have loads of takeaways. I would love to hear some of those. I'm sure Kami would as well. You can drop us a comment for the show notes at this episode, which are going to be at joshhallco slash 371.

Josh Hall:

And my encouragement to you is that, whether you are a new web designer or an established web designer, take Kami's lead and just be a good web designer to your clients and that's the magic. You will get leads, you will grow your business, you will build referral partners. You will get leads, you will grow your business, you will build referral partners. You will grow your MRR. Things compound over time, just like they have for Kami and now managing over 200 sites on her maintenance plan. So what an inspiration. Big thanks to Kami for taking time and for being here to share with you what she's learned to get to this point in her journey. So again, show notes joshhallco slash 371. Go check out Kami's website at webkamicom and be sure to sign up for her new web designer habits newsletter, which you can find at her website webkamicom, also linked over at joshhallco slash 371. Stay subscribed. Web designer friends, more awesomeness a coming.