Web Design Business with Josh Hall

373 - Offering a "Light Branding Package" with Jamie Starcevich

• Josh Hall

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Ok web designer – tell me if this sounds familiar…

You sign on a new client for a website project!

But then, they send you their atrocious logo…

Now what?

  • Do you design the website based on their terrible logo/existing brand?
  • Do you try to upsell an unexpected logo/brand package?
  • Do you pause the website project and tell them to hire a new logo designer first?


This is a very common challenge for web designers but there is a solution!

Repeat guest and branding expert Jamie Starcevich has really dialed in a nifty solution for this situation which is, in short, to offer a “Light Branding Package.” In this chat, we get into all the details of how to offer it, what constraints to put on it, how much to charge for it and more!

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/373

Big thanks to the sponsors for our upcoming Web Designer Pro CON 2025 event! We couldn't make such a top-notch event for my community without their support 🙏

17hats (for proposals, invoicing, contracts and automation)

SiteGround (for website hosting)

Termageddon (for auto-updating privacy po

Jamie Starcevich:

But for this type of package I would personally, I would not go under a thousand but you could also do something like what you said of like, just include this in your package and just say this is a part of it. Right, if you're going to offer this kind of brand refresh and you already are doing that in your process, maybe you don't need to change your pricing, or maybe this is an opportunity to increase it and say, like, call it what it is, that you're already doing this right? Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.

Josh Hall:

Hey, my web designer friend, now I know I'm not alone in this situation. Let me lay the context here. You get a website project and you're about ready to move forward. You're all excited to start a new design and then the client sends you an absolutely shit logo and now you're left in a bit of a pickle, because you can design a whole site around this terrible branding, or you can try to upsell your client to a logo and full branding package that maybe they weren't anticipating, or, worse yet, you need to stall the website because maybe you don't do logo or branding design and you need to hire that out before you can do any do the website.

Josh Hall:

This is really common, but I'm so excited to tackle what to do in this situation with a repeat guest on the podcast. This is Jamie Starchevich, who I would consider a true branding, logo and typography expert. She has been in this world for a long time as a freelancer and has come up with a very, very unique solution to this problem by offering what she calls a light branding package, which is literally what you can offer when you're in this situation. So that's what we're going to dive into in this one exactly how to offer this, where to even price it and, again, very, very common. So you're not alone if this has happened to you, and that's what we're going to help you with, and this one.

Josh Hall:

You can find more about Jamie by going to her website spruce roadcom that is spelled S P R U C E R Dcom, and she is very active on as well active ish on Instagram, as you'll hear. Um, so go to the show notes for this episode to connect with her and get all the resources and links we mentioned, because we do talk about some additional resources here that she has for you to help you. Uh, you can go to joshhallco slash three seven 373 to get all those All right without further ado. Here is Jamie. Well, jamie, it is so good to reconnect and have you back on. Did you say you were episode 50? Is that right?

Jamie Starcevich:

I was around there. Yeah, it's so fun to be, to be back in it. Uh, what are we at now? 300 something.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, you will be. Let me look at the schedule here. You'll be three. Unless this changes, you'll be three, uh 73. So, uh, yeah, it's been. It's been a few years, a few years, few kiddos later for each of us, and we're still cooking.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

Josh Hall:

What have you been doing since we chatted last, have you? You know, you've had, I think, a couple. I think you have made maybe one kid when we talked last, or maybe two, and then, yeah, we've both been busy being parent, printers and everything. So what have you been doing like the last five years or so?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, that's a good question. Definitely, kids are the main change in my life. I have three boys and the oldest is eight, six and three, and so I kind of hybrid like work from home, mom, stay at home, mom, you know, kind of do different hats, you know. So, like half the week I'm at home with the kids and I homeschool them, and then the other half of the week I'm working and then my husband and I just flip-flop those jobs. So, um, yeah, that's just what I've been doing still, uh, designing brands and, um, teaching about design to other designers.

Josh Hall:

And I'm kind of curious, did you? Did you have that in mind when you thought about building your design business up and being an entrepreneur working from home? Did you have that in mind to be able to balance that with motherhood and being a parent, or did you just kind of make it work? I'm always curious now, seeing parents who are in it for a while, how much of this was planned and how much of this just kind of happened and you just make it work.

Jamie Starcevich:

I mean kind of a mix of both. Like it goes back to when I was in college. I was studying architecture and then just saw like, okay, if you're going to be an architect, maybe it's different in reality. I don't know. It just seemed like a ton of hours and I was like, even at age what 20, I was like, well, one day I want to have kids and so I switched to graphic design because that seemed like more of a family-friendly field to go into. And it has been, which has been awesome. I never thought I would start my own business, as many business owners say, but here I am and it's been such a blessing to our family and, yeah, it's just worked out. It's been a really great fit.

Josh Hall:

That's awesome. It's kind of cool to talk with you. Yeah, literally nearly five years. I was just looking it was 2020. It was shortly after COVID that we actually chatted the first time, so nearly five years later. So to see you on this end, to where it's still working for you and you're still managing the lifestyle balance. It's actually it's an unanticipated. Cool thing about this show is talking with folks like yourself, who I haven't seen in a while, to see, like where we're at now and how our businesses have evolved or how they've stayed exactly the same, which means like we were onto something from the get go, which is pretty cool.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I mean like different. There's been like some differences, but overall I just feel like it's really been sustainable, which has been my goal of like I never want burnout, you know, and so working like two days a week, I just don't feel burnt out, and any parent with kids at home knows like it's actually easier for me to work than to be at home with the kids sometimes, you know, as far as like the introverted me is like this is nice, I'm just at my computer, you know a little quiet. So it's been a good balance and super sustainable. Yeah, I've enjoyed it.

Josh Hall:

What are some of the changes that you've made to evolve the business to make sure you're able to just keep a lighter work schedule time wise?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, so one main thing is that I do branding and over the last few years I've really stopped working with a lot of new clients and I've just worked with mainly one client we do design days, so every single week it's like predictable nice schedule of every single week we do that. And then I've shifted my design focus to be more on typography, which we're going to chat about a little bit today, just because I love type and it's something that's even goes back into my roots of like my grandfather was a typesetter, pre-computers doing like the letterpress and everything like that. So, yeah, I've just really loved diving into typography from like a standpoint that's not super technical, like I'm not a type type designer, I don't design fonts but I use them for clients, and so I love kind of chatting about that kind of stuff more with my design community.

Josh Hall:

So you stripped down to more like VIP day style just to keep a consistent schedule and pipeline with.

Jamie Starcevich:

Oh yeah, I was doing that when we last talked five years ago, I think I had maybe just started doing it and I've done like 500 days since then, probably, and you're on the summit coming up, which I don't know when this is being produced. It might be after, um, but the simply profitable designer summit, right, yeah, or I didn't realize. Are you speaking there too? I am, I just saw you on there. You're a sponsor, which is awesome. That's my topic is, for that is the repeat design days awesome.

Josh Hall:

Okay, yeah, this is going to come out, I think right after that, maybe a week or two after it, but uh, that's really cool. I didn't actually just today I was going to look at the list and start to promote it, so, uh, that's really cool. I love to see that you're kind of re-engaging on this end of things. So did you keep your own design community and your email list and your resources for designers? Have you kept that going kind of quietly and kind of re-emerging with that, neil? What's that look like for you?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, it's just been on my email list, so that's another change. I haven't been like on Instagram and social media, hardly at all. I've just kind of not been interested, quite frankly.

Josh Hall:

You look nice and refreshed and happy, so it must be working.

Jamie Starcevich:

Thank you, yeah, and no discredit to anyone who does that. It just was in a season in my life where I was like I need a break from that and it felt nice and just fits with kind of my business model anyways, to just keep on going with like the newsletter. And it felt nice and just fits with kind of my business model anyways, to just keep on going with like the newsletter and then occasionally doing things like this where we will swap, you know kind of meet up with other entrepreneurs and get in front of their audience and then you know they'll get in front of mine, type of thing. So yeah, Awesome.

Josh Hall:

Well, the big thing of, I mean a lot of topics we could dive into, but you do have kind of a specialty with typography and with branding.

Josh Hall:

There's a really common issue with web designers that we really haven't, you know, kind of drilled into here on the show, which is a client comes to you and their brand is terrible, and then there's really two options, although I think we're probably going to hit on this third option. The options are like you do you start with branding and do a full blown digital rehaul of their logo, their design elements, their guidelines, their fonts, everything, and then do the website eventually. Or you just build a website with a terrible logo and it affects everything downhill. But I think you've struck kind of a sweet spot with this idea of like a what, like a light brand or a almost like a big, a basic style package that may be a little typography. So, yeah, I'd love to hear that Like what, what, what you see working with that and how designers, web designers in particular, could almost offer like a light branding package in those scenarios.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I was wondering if I was going to bring up the elephant in the room or if you were about like how clients come to you for web stuff and they're almost like sometimes they don't even know they need you to bridge that gap. Right, they just come and say I need a website and you're like actually like you need more, you more. And so you have to have that conversation. Or maybe it's like their cousin designed their logo and they think they have branding, but they're missing a lot of key things like what's their typography look like, what color are they using, Things like that. And so a lot of web designers end up kind of bridging that gap, whether they make their client aware of that or not. Right, Like because they have to.

Jamie Starcevich:

To build a website, you have to pick fonts somehow, you have to pick colors and things like that, and so, yeah, I love to just dive into about like adding that into your process. There's a few ways you can do that. One way is like a discovery phase. Do you kind of talk about like discovery phase with web designers? Yeah, for sure, Especially if it's like a discovery phase. Do you kind of talk about like discovery phase with web designers?

Josh Hall:

Yeah for sure, Especially if it's like a qualified lead to where, during that initial call, it's usually discovery in the way of like the brand, the goals of the website and stuff which inevitably is going to lead to what they have currently Like. Do they have a current site and then inevitably you look at the brand, Right? So yeah, absolutely. I feel like it all starts with that.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah. So I think for brand designers, discovery phase is for clients that have actually booked your services. So it's not like a consultation call. It's the first step and I love this part of the process because it helps me as a designer before I actually start like sketching or which I'm not good at illustrating, but before I start like actually going into illustrator and designing things. Like I get almost like a checkoff for my client of like this is the direction we're going and that can take a few different forms, but you can do like a style tile showing like these are the fonts and the colors and like photo style or whatever it may be, pull assets that they already have. It could be like a mood board or something like that, but basically getting them to check off on like the style before you actually start designing the site or the brand, and so I love bringing in typography into that part of the process before you get too deep into it.

Josh Hall:

So real quick. There is a bit of a distinction, I feel like, between a discovery call with before they become a client, like before they pay you, versus after they pay you, and then for me I call that a strategy call because it's a little more like now you're a paid client, Now we're actually talking nitty gritty and details, because it's a little more like okay, now you're a paid client, Now we're actually talking nitty gritty and details. But I am curious on the like before they pay you. I imagine you probably want to identify the brand where the brand's at pretty quick, right, Because you're right, you don't want somebody to pay you and be like oh, by the way, you desperately need a new logo for a lot of reasons.

Jamie Starcevich:

Oh, yes, definitely, yeah, yeah, so I think it could be just different terminology. I come from like. I worked at an agency for a little bit like freelancing and they called it the discovery phase and it was a lot of like strategy and things like that. But the consultation call is what I call like that first one before clients paid you anything. And that's when I'm having that conversation like Like what do you want, what do you need? And then for like the web stuff, that's when you would say like hey, I noticed like you could use or benefit from however you want to phrase it really tactfully like new branding or like do you have branding? And that's when you have that conversation.

Josh Hall:

Then yeah, I totally agree. So let's say that we identify a need. I think the real question is, as we all know, especially as web designers, branding can be if you don't control it. So, yeah, how do we like, I guess, how do you contain branding? That's the real question.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, so there's a lot of ways I feel like we're in 2025 and there's like totally like new ways to approach branding than there were back then.

Jamie Starcevich:

You know, but I do make a living with branding and have for years and and like our base package was like $5,000. So I know what you mean of like it can include a lot of things right, strategy, it can even include like communication, parts of it, icons, patterns, like the whole gamut really. You can define what that is. But what I love about what we're going to talk about today is like type-based brands and you can create like some form of this for your web packages. That's like a light branding almost for your clients and just make them aware of what that is, and don't call it like we're going to create a fully custom illustrated logo. It's like just with anything like have clear, transparent communication, and so like a light, type-based brand could include like a logo that's just type-based and make it clear you're not like customizing that unless you want to, which you totally can, and then the typography suite that goes with that.

Josh Hall:

What would be in the typography suite Is that just like fonts, typeface headings, kind of like the bare bones of what you would put on a website and copy?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yes, for sure, Like you would need to have the hierarchy set like the headline copy, like the headline type style, along with like the call to action button and then like the subhead and body copy and descriptor text, whatever it may be. Whenever I design brands, I always like to use it in context. So for web design, you would already be doing that right If you have a finished product that you're designing the website for. So when creating like a type-based brand, you could show them, like a landing page, how that would look in different type styles. So, yeah, I think showing it in application is really key, rather than just putting like headline type in like a certain font and then like this is the body copy or whatever it's like, actually show like what this would be for promotion purposes. Um, you could even repurpose that into like. If they're an e-commerce brand, you could show them a sample like what an insert would look like for their packaging, um, things like that, how they would use that and other instances beyond.

Josh Hall:

Like the website Do you start with the typefaces and typography first and then do the logo based off of that, or since it is a typeface logo, or do you start with the logo and figure out the typeface for that and then move towards the fonts?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I think this is an interesting conversation. Like in school I was always taught to like sketch like 50 plus thumbnail sketches of the logo before doing anything on the computer. And then, as I've been a designer for over 15 years, I just realized my process is not so linear. Like I can't just like sketch the logo, find the logo and then find in black and white and then find the type and then put it in color. You know I just can't do that and maybe people are oriented in that way, but for me I I honestly just approach it like my art board is just wild.

Jamie Starcevich:

It's like all over the place different kind of options for like lockups for the logo or like a sub mark idea I have over here, and then it just kind of all comes together at the end. But I call it like backwards branding. I feel like I often kind of start at the end like with the application in mind and then cause I like typography and I'm just more inclined in that way, and then I bring in the logo with that. But sometimes it's backwards. Sometimes I have a concept for a logo and that leads to the type. So I don't know if that answers your question, so not a crystal clear process on that.

Josh Hall:

I could. You could start with the logo, or you might start with the typefaces, and then that could make the low what is I mean? Is the logo basically just yeah, like the chosen typeface written out, or is there anything you would do into the logo that would make that different from just typing it onto a page?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I think that's up to you. If you are offering like this as kind of a light version of branding for web, especially in those instances where a client comes to you and wants a website but doesn't necessarily want like a huge like branding expense or whatever it may be, then you could just type out the logo. There's nothing wrong with that. I just want to put that out there. If anyone has apprehensions about that, the only thing is to check licensing. Some people will say you can't just do that for a logo, but a lot of licenses are open to that. You can also modify using Adobe Illustrator. They've made it a lot easier in the last couple years to modify type, and so you can do something like that too, which I love doing, just to make it a little bit more distinctive. But I don't want that to be a barrier into using type for web designers.

Josh Hall:

So by licensing do you mean like if I were to use like Arial for a typeface for a logo, would there potentially be trademarks on using that font for like an actual company's logo? Is that kind of what you mean by checking the legalities of?

Jamie Starcevich:

that. Yeah, I don't know about like the trademark side of it would be interesting, but more so on the font license. So with each font there's a license and if you go to especially like indie foundries that sell their own typefaces, they just come up with whatever they want for their own type foundry and so some of them will be like use this however you want. And then others are like you can't use this for logo, you have to pay extra for that. But I find that that's more rare. Usually they're in the the boat of like. If you can't use this for logo, you have to pay extra for that, but I find that that's more rare. Usually they're in the boat of like if you purchase this typeface, you can use it however you want. But I just want to caveat that I'm like just check you know before you do that.

Josh Hall:

Where? How do you practically? Is there a site that has like font licenses? Where do you check that?

Jamie Starcevich:

Whenever you download the font, there'll be it'll say the font license on there. So if you're on Adobe Creative Cloud or Monotype or something like that, like those subscriptions I think Google Fonts as well they don't really have limits on there and they make that really clear and then other ones like my Fonts I think pretty much the same there, but they'll always have something that says the font license. You can click and just check that, search for a logo and you'll see if it says anything there. But they'll always have something that says like the font license. You can click and just check that. You know, search for a logo and you'll see if it says anything there.

Josh Hall:

Gotcha. So in this light branding package that we're kind of, you know, peeling the layers back on here, we got the typeface logo, we've got the font, like the hierarchy, the font style, the main typography and font styles. The big question is, what about these other common elements for branding packages? What about icons? What about graphic styles? What about brand guidelines? How far do these light packages go? Could you create tiers of these, or is that too much? What else is in the light branding package?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I mean honestly, you can just do whatever you're comfortable with. If you are okay designing icons, by all means add that to your package, but if that's something you don't want to source or you don't want to offer, then you don't have to do that. I see this as a service for those clients that come to you and either have a logo but don't have anything else, and that's really common. Those clients that come to you and either have a logo but don't have anything else and that's really common. People will buy like a cheap logo a lot of times, and sometimes it looks fine but they don't have anything else to go with that, and that's when something like this would come in play. If you can say, okay, let me kind of build something around that, and that would be the typography. I would do like a mini brand guide that does not have to be elaborate at all, just like the typography suite that you design, including like the headline and body copy and things like that, and then like a key color, their key brand color, and you can even do like tints above and below that, because that's helpful with web, like with hovers and things like that. But, yeah, I think, keep it really simple for this.

Jamie Starcevich:

This could be something you offer on the back end of a product.

Jamie Starcevich:

If you have your main package for web design and then occasionally those clients come in the door and you want to test this out, this does not have to be on your website.

Jamie Starcevich:

I'm a big fan of testing things out behind the scenes before you create a sales page and start getting clients in, before you've even vetted it the process. So you could even just test this out behind the scenes, tell the first potential client it would be a good fit for on the consultation call, like hey, I have this new service I'm trying out. Would you want to try that? This is what's included, and then you'll get the process nailed from there and see if this is something you want to offer as like a tiered service or just kind of in those here and there clients that could benefit from that bridge over from, like I have this logo, but I need more, but I don't need, like, a full brand and this is where that fits in. Is this more of like a type driven brand, kind of like a light version of branding? So yeah, I think just be clear about it too.

Josh Hall:

It's genius. I wish I would have heard this a decade ago, because I was kind of doing this offhand and just in a very messy way. All web designers typically are where a company has a logo but, yeah, they don't really have any exact typefaces or typography, fonts chosen or colors or elements, so you just kind of create those as you're building the website. And then I've looked back and thought like, oh my gosh, I could have absolutely either charged a lot more as the full package with some sort of light branding. Even though I wasn't a brand designer, I did absolutely do branding on nearly every project. So in some ways I feel like most designers are probably doing this anyway.

Josh Hall:

Yes, exactly this is probably a matter of, in a lot of ways, just sticking a label on it and whether you, I feel like, whether you, you tell me, jamie, like whether you sell it as an add-on or an initial upsell, or I would think you could probably just include this and make a higher value package and say, like, well, this is, you know, instead of a $2,000 website, this is a $5,000 website, but we're going to include our light branding, we're going to give, we're going to help you with your fonts, we're going to help you with your elements, and it's all included. So I feel like it's a great little way to sell a bigger package by just offering a light branding as a part of it If, if, when, when needed for that client.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I agree, I was going to say that I feel like a lot of web designers already do this, but they might not put a name on it or make their client aware that they're doing it, and I think I'm kind of more of a people pleaser, and so I knew that I fell into that boat of like I would just do things the client didn't even know I was doing, like it just needs to be done. But I feel like this is such a great way to also get your client into the process of taking ownership over their brand and you including that into the discovery phase or whatever you want to call it, just making it more a part of the process so that they're aware this is going on. They also will see the value in it, which is just going to increase the client experience. So, yeah, I think it's such a good part of the process and just something to incorporate either behind the scenes or just do this with all your clients if you're already doing it.

Josh Hall:

That, and there's nothing worse than having branding as a hurdle for a project to move forward. I remember clients wanting to move forward and I wanted to move forward, but their logo is just so terrible. I was like I'm not going to put this on my work. This is so timely. By the way, I was literally just having a coaching chat and Web Designer Pro this week about this exact same thing. The little scenario you listed out earlier is exactly what happened.

Josh Hall:

My member got a lead quality business quality lead but it was like their sister did the logo and the branding and it was atrocious. And she, because it's a personal thing, she felt weird about the client. She's like I don't want to do a website with this based off of this because it's just so bad. So my advice was, you know, basically in a nutshell, to do this offer like a slight rebrand, like don't let the website slip by, don't say like we can't help you right now, but offer a way to maybe use, salvage what you can, but just take it to a different level within the package. But this is just the best way to package this and say you know you got a logo, but there's a lot of issues with best practices and in order to build a professional site, we're going to want to tweak the brand a little bit, but we don't need to blow up the whole thing. We just you know, you can use our light branding package, just slap it on there.

Josh Hall:

Normally I want to talk pricing next, but we you could say, normally maybe it's a thousand, but this is just going to be included, we'll take, we'll take this on as the first phase of the project and we'll do it for you. So, like I, so I feel like this Somebody could leave this conversation now and have way more confidence of having an offer to literally put on those elements of just a light branding package Real quick, before we talk pricing, though, what about the logo? How far are we going with saving out different font file extensions? What would be the deliverables of a branding package? And then we got to talk about how to price it.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, well, first of all, I have to say that was like, if anyone is in that boat, just like record what Josh just said. I feel like that's such a tactful way to approach it of like building in the strategy and just like communicating, for, like the website of things, we want to make sure everything looks good and is like on best practices for website. Um, that's going to be your best bet is to like go with legibility, because a lot of times those logos are so overdone, right, have a lot of distractions, and so you can use those terms to like convince the client that this is the way to go.

Josh Hall:

um, yeah, but what was your question? How many, how many crappy logos do we get that have like a tagline under it and you're like if you put this on a menu, you're just going to see two pixel font size. No one's gonna be able to read that.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, that's exactly why type-based brands are so great too, because I feel like and this could be a whole other tangent but I just feel like they're so timeless because there's a lot of trends when it comes to logos, especially like illustration styles, not to mention like brands change right, like their focus might be on one thing one year, five years later they're doing something else, so the illustration no longer really applies to them, and so type-based brands I just love that because they're more timeless in that way but still can have a lot of personality Like fonts really convey a lot of messaging to clients and to customers. So it's not like you're lacking anything there, but I just think they work really well for websites as well. They remove those distractions. But in terms of, like you said, saving out logo files, I wouldn't get too hung up on that. The process takes me like 5 minutes maybe to save out a logo file.

Jamie Starcevich:

Um, you can do whatever you need for the website svg, png, jpeg, eps, something like that, um but you don't need all of the bells and whistles of like sub marks with the tagline. Without a tagline, you can maybe just do like a horizontal and vertical option. That that's what I would recommend Is.

Josh Hall:

FedEx, a type led logo. Like FedEx is notorious for having that little little arrow, which is like one of the most genius marketing things. I remember when I did some night classes in my community college it was one was a design branding class and it was one of my favorites and they they showed us the FedEx logo and they showed us the arrow and I was like, oh my God, I God, I see it now. Holy crap, I see the arrow.

Jamie Starcevich:

Is that an?

Josh Hall:

example.

Jamie Starcevich:

That is, but that's definitely next level. I feel like that's something I fell into as a designer of, like every brand needs a hidden arrow in there or like some hidden thing. It just doesn't work.

Josh Hall:

It looks forced a lot of times, the sea in Chick-fil-A is a chicken, holy crap.

Jamie Starcevich:

And those like work out really well. But I just don't think you need like a lot of brands are type-based. If you just start being more aware of it, like go in the packaging aisle at like some boutique store Cause you know they have like well-designed packaging and stuff, a lot of those are type-based brands and so there's nothing wrong with that. But I do love a good good, hidden, hidden meaning in a logo too.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, but the big thing is like you don't need to, like you said, draw out 25 icons with different styles and yeah, I mean that's yeah, like the, the icons especially, or whatever you want to call it. I feel like those were. Most of the work comes into play with logo design is when it's something super custom. You get into all the vector stuff and next thing, you know, you know you got a hundred different options for an icon and it's like whew, yeah, also a hundred hours into working on all that.

Jamie Starcevich:

So it is, and then often, like those logos, like I said, they get like almost like rely on these design distractions is what I call them. I do love some good illustrated logos and we have some in our portfolio, so I'm not nothing against that. But I think it's hard as a designer to really peel back sometimes and just do typography because we want to like add, add, add, add. Especially when working with clients, it's even more so this mindset barrier of like they're paying me I need to add more stuff, right, but, like I said, there's so much value in just type-driven brands and that's what you see a lot of professional packaging designs that are so beautiful. A lot of them really lean into typography and compare it down to that and still have a beautiful, solid, solid and creative custom brand so web designer pro is a type driven brand.

Josh Hall:

Right, I don't have like an icon. Yeah, you did it, I did it. I've already. I didn't realize I did it, I did it, I think I do think that's how it made a heck of a lot easier too, because I didn't invest in like huge branding package. I was just like web designer pro, put the pro in the you know the little rectangle. We're using the slapping and whipping sound on this just because when you package up, you know a little brand package, you got it.

Jamie Starcevich:

It just needs it.

Josh Hall:

That's the big seller for clients, by the way. You just say we can add your brand package on there, it's on us, so that makes sense. Super easy set of deliverables. I mean gosh, some of mine, I'm thinking, were literally just a text document and it was like main font, this font, secondary font, this main color, this secondary color, this. And that was like a very, very crude, rudimentary brand style guide. So, yeah, I imagine that could be fairly simple, like I think your message is like don't overthink it, don't overcomplicate it. Yeah, keep it simple.

Jamie Starcevich:

I think. At the same time, I just want to say it's not lazy. I just want to say that for type driven brands, like it's not lazy. It actually takes some skill to edit out I feel like more so than we give ourselves credit for but at the same time it can be really easy. Right, to create small mini brands using only type, I think can be really easy and fun, but doesn't mean that it's lazy or any diminishing part of the branding process.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, and to our point so far, it's like it would be a shame for both parties the client and for you as the web designer to not have this option, because you want the client to get a new website, but you also don't want it to look atrocious. So this is like the fix, and maybe I would imagine there's a time and a place to upsell them for a bigger brand package, either immediately or maybe eventually. Maybe they get their website up and off the ground, they start making better revenue and then you could really talk about a more full fledged design and branding package. But it does seem like the perfect way to just get things going Because, like I said and you articulated too, we've already kind of we're already doing this in a lot of ways.

Jamie Starcevich:

So yeah, I think so.

Jamie Starcevich:

And you can definitely refer out brand designers. Like I'm a big fan, I'm sure you are as well like collaborating with other designers. But that can either some clients don't want that, they don't have the budget for it, or they're not ready for a full brand rehaul, Like maybe they're just kind of wanting a website up. You know, now, timing could be an issue with that too, but it could also be a barrier for you as the web designer of like you're losing that momentum of what you have, this call with them or whatever it may be that they're ready to go, and then you're like wait, go to this other person for a few months and hope, I hope you come back, you know.

Josh Hall:

Great point, great point. Yeah, you you never want a hot lead who has like money that they're like about ready to pay you to be like. Actually you hold on to that. Come back in a few months when you get a new logo. Yeah, Like, get that deposit and then do a basic parenting package to kick it off Absolutely.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah.

Josh Hall:

Speaking of money, we got to talk pricing. So what are some average ranges for? You know, we talk at 99 bucks. Are we talking a thousand If your guys' base package starts at 5k? You know, yeah, what are the ranges look like? As far, of course, I imagine you could, you know, customize this to to all in, but what are just some average price ranges for, like a light branding package?

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I think you just said it right there Like people will charge $99. Isn't there like 99 designs or something like that for a logo? And I just want to say don't do that. I don't think that that's really valuing it. But it can go all the way up to like I've seen brands offer like $10,000 packages or even more than that, and so there's just this huge wide range. But for this type of package, I would personally I would not go under a thousand. But you could also do something like what you said of like just include this in your package and just say this is a part of it. Right, if you're going to offer this kind of brand refresh and you already are doing that in your process maybe you don't need to change your pricing. Or maybe this is an opportunity to increase it and say, call it what it is that you're already doing this. So that's another way to do it. But personally, I wouldn't go under $1,000 if you're offering this as an a la carte, add-on kind of package. But yeah, what do you think, josh?

Josh Hall:

I agree, yeah, and of course, like you said in the beginning, it depends on the discovery call as far as whether they're good to go and they don't need any. Like they've got a style guide you follow which makes the colors, but that all bleeds into everything else and then you're really. You are thinking about mood boards and, even if it's on a very simplistic level, you are thinking about, well, what does this look like compared to their competitors? There is a lot, even on a simple level. There's still a lot of mental energy and a lot of design IP that you're thinking through on this. So I totally agree, I would never do it less than a thousand.

Josh Hall:

But yeah, just echoing your point, like it's just a part of the process. So, instead of taking somebody's brand styles and going right into developing and planning the site, you may say, well, first phase is nailing this down and then that's going to go into the next phase, which is moving all of the initial brand styles over to the website. So, yeah, I like that idea of like a thousand to probably a couple thousand. Honestly, I would try it out with a thousand. I think that sounds good, that sounds like a light package option and then eventually, if you really dial it in, you probably increase it anymore. But that also can help you take a project from you know, 6,500 to 7,500. Just just with that, and again, you don't need it could be a line item or an add on on on your proposal or it could just be phase one of the project.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to kind of tweak it and use it for what you need and, like, like you said, it just depends on the client, because some clients are ready to rock and roll and then others just need that bridge, and so this is a good solution to help them with that and make them aware of, like, how you can support them in that way.

Josh Hall:

How do you handle revisions on that type of thing, like if you present, because the other big aspect I know that you're big on is handling revisions. Your first episode, which was number 50 on the podcast, was how to limit client revisions and your your one revision method. But or was it? Is it no revision method?

Jamie Starcevich:

Zero revision yes.

Josh Hall:

Zero revision. That's right. That's right. Um, do you basically give them like tight constraints or or how, yeah, how would we make sure that that doesn't grow legs and become this revision and feedback fest?

Jamie Starcevich:

I like that grow legs. Yeah, I think it's a part of the process, of that discovery phase, like what I call it the discovery phase before you start the design process and getting them on board with that, before you start sending them kind of this light branding package. That's a huge part of like what I call the zero revision method. Now I always put in like what I call like two safety net revisions. If we don't nail it, then there's always I'm not. I'm not that person that's like now you pay me more. You know it's like there's always built in that.

Jamie Starcevich:

But I rarely have clients do that because of the discovery phase, of sending them kind of examples of we could do something like this or this. And it's like different styles to see where they're at and not just like which one do you like. It's like asking them questions of like what do you, which ones do you like and why, or like which ones don't resonate and why, and putting make sure you have like different styles. A lot of mood boards designers put together are really beautiful and cohesive and I love that. But I've never done that. I've always done all these different styles, similar vibes. But if someone says I want a really classic brand. Well, that could mean a lot of different things. Visually it can mean really refined and sophisticated, or it could be classic and timeless but also approachable, and so those are different fonts I'm going to pull from and so I show them those kind of options.

Josh Hall:

How do you feel when it came to the deliverables of what to give a client with a branding a basic light branding package? One thing that I did for some clients and I would encourage all web designers to do, is to have like an assets page, and I was just thinking like this could that could be an incredible upsell with this as well, which is a part of your branding light. Your light branding package that's a thousand is a page on your website with your logo files, with your colors, with your brand font styles that you can always refer back to, your team can refer back to, and anytime you're doing an ad or a publication, you don't need to find your logo files. You can just send them to your page. They download it. That could be an upsell, too, is to make like an assets page as a part of the package.

Jamie Starcevich:

Oh, that's great. Yeah, you took it next level. And I'm learning from you so you can take that one and add it in your program. Jamie, A lot of brands do that already. If you want to like creep on how, like major brands are doing it, like you can go to like I don't even know what's this one.

Josh Hall:

Recent example SiteGround. Hats off to them for being a partner for our upcoming Web Designer Pro event. A sponsor I just you could Google just SiteGround logo white. But I actually found their assets page that has all of their logo styles and different formats and I was like this is great, so yeah.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, I think that's so easy, because how many of us like my desktop is embarrassing, how like I need to clean it up. Like sometimes I put a folder in there that says, like, clean up and just like, put everything in there, and so clients are going to lose stuff. They just are, and you don't want to be responsible for that person that they come to of like, can you send me this file? It's like so that would be nice for them to just know if I go to like my website, slash logos or whatever. I can find all that information.

Josh Hall:

So prime example. I'll make sure I keep this open so we link it in the show notes for everyone who wants to check this out. But if anyone just searches, excuse me, siteground brand assets, the URL is just brand-assets after SiteGroundcom. And this is I'm looking at it now. It's a great, it's really simple. It is literally just how to use the logo, like how to spell it. If you're just going type or like typeface, different versions of the logo in black and in white and transparent, and then brand colors, and it gives you the different RGB styles of the CMYK and usage guidelines and that's it.

Josh Hall:

So anybody can replicate what SiteGround has. I know a ton of companies have that, but that is a nice. It's super simple and great value add and it just makes life easier. Moving forward, when your client's like, hey Josh, can you send me that one, that the client's asking for a vector file, what the heck is that? And you're like, oh yeah, here's your URL, here's your brand assets. Send them this over Makes you look like a total expert and it's a win-win and it's a win-win.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah. Yeah, that's bringing me back. I used to work at a university and I had a lot of those color hex codes memorized, but sometimes I didn't, and that was always what I would go to to pull from. I'm like what's the color again? Like I could look up our pretty brand guide, but I could just go to our assets page and like I just get what I want you know.

Josh Hall:

Yep, boom that. And like I just get what I want you know, yep, boom. That's a good reminder. I have that on my list for WebZenner Pro. I need to actually do it. I don't. I haven't officially put that page together, so I think I'm just going to rip off SiteGround. There you go. Yeah, beautiful, awesome, jamie. Well, is there anything glaring that's missing from this light pack? Is there anything we haven't covered that when we stop recording, you're going to be like, ah, dang it. I wish I would have mentioned this.

Jamie Starcevich:

I think, yeah, one of the main things I wanted to talk about too is just like finding fonts. I feel like this for me is like I enjoy doing it, but I'm also the designer with like 50 plus tabs open of different fonts, so I know it can be overwhelming is what I'm saying, either like I don't know how you are whenever you're finding fonts, but you kind of have like your safe fonts, your go-to fonts, that you lean on your crutch right, but that's not always applicable for the client and also maybe it's not the best way to serve them. You could enhance the design by getting outside of your safe zone. So I just wanted to chat a little bit about that. I think I sent you the link.

Jamie Starcevich:

I have a product called Type Swipes and it's basically these font recipes for these kind of this whole product. We're talking about this like mini brand, that's type based. So I've done a lot of the font research for you. If you guys would benefit from doing that, I think it saves you a ton of time. But I just want to say I acknowledge that it is hard to find one font, let alone start the process over again once you find that font to find something that goes well with it, so I don't know how your experience is with that, josh.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, it depends on. Typically, because I didn't generally save out too much in the way of like actual files or anything, I would just do it through Divi. I would just find the font pairings in Divi. There was an old resource I had that was specific to Divi font pairings and I use that for almost every website. It was like oh, I like number seven, I'll do that for this site or something similar, but this definitely looks to the next level and it's not just platform-based. So is this a Notion, doc, or is this in Circle? Oh, it's in Circle, isn't it? That's like a yeah, of course, of course, very cool.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, so, and I have a and I haven't given this to anybody, I just thought of it for this interview I could give you guys, if you think they'd be interested in your community like a sample pack of some of these type swipes.

Jamie Starcevich:

That'd be great Because I know I'm very visual and I have to see, like, what is this, what are font recipes, and so it would show you like, basically, each one has a logo and then some coordinating complimentary type that goes with it, and so you get to see them in action. I included in the sample pack like a few that are more classic and some that are more modern, so you'll get kind of a handful of different ones and then just see if that's something that you want that would help you moving forward. I try to make it a super affordable price as far as, like, if you do this every month, you would definitely benefit from it. You know, with your clients and upselling and things like that. But yeah, it's been a fun resource to create and something that I've been working on for really years and I've just kind of put together finally to the masses to be able to offer yeah, that's super cool.

Josh Hall:

So we'll have that linked up spruce roadcom slash type dash swipes, for sure. And then, yeah, if you have kind of a teaser guide like that, send me that link. I'll make sure we include that in the show notes, for sure, jamie, okay I'll make it just like spruce rdcom slash sample.

Jamie Starcevich:

just make it easy oops, cool, cool.

Josh Hall:

So that'll be in the show notes as well for everybody. And then I just found one of my old bookmarks. It was the ultimate. Google font pairings is another site that I feature in my design course. Uh, that has a few different styles. Most of those fonts are in most website builders, which is also pretty cool too, but that's a little bit different than like finding a font that you're going to find, you know, and make it an actual brand resource for a client.

Jamie Starcevich:

So, yeah, I love Google fonts and those are in type swipes as well. I try to pull from like indie foundries as well as Google Adobe cloud. You know all those different ones, Um, but but yeah, I think it's really if you are looking to add this, then I think going beyond like Google Fonts, would be ideal for your clients to really enhance the experience, and we all know, like the impact that typography has on like really any design form. Whether you're designing packaging, logos, websites, a PDF type is like the main thing I would focus on if you're looking to enhance your design skills, because it's like the foundation, it's the visual way of communicating, right, it's how we read things and so it really has a lot of like personality built in that I think a lot of times we can kind of neglect, right, Just kind of fall back on the safe zone, Like I said, the default fonts that we use, but this is a way to really enhance it next level for your clients.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, I totally agree. This has been really cool. I mean I this really helps solidify, like how to what to offer, how and when to offer it, how to price it, how to structure it, and just the reminder that most web designers are doing this anyway.

Jamie Starcevich:

So yeah, don't be intimidated.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, well, you're doing. Yeah, do you don't need to be a brand designer, you don't need to put brand strategists in your tagline, Like you're. You're probably doing it anyway. Slap this label on there making an upsell separately, or include it in the package, and then they'll. They'll be saying thank you, jamie and Josh, for months on end here moving forward.

Jamie Starcevich:

There we go. I like that.

Josh Hall:

J and J design studio is our next endeavor. So, uh well, jamie, this has been awesome. Any. So we talked about the, uh, the swipe, the type swipes. I'll make sure we link that. Where else should people go? I know you have any uh a newsletter that you're big on helping our webinars out. Where else do people go aside from that type of swipes?

Jamie Starcevich:

I think that's really it. If you want to hop on the newsletter, you can download that sample pack and that'll get you on my newsletter. I really focus on like brand design specifically, but then just a lot of client process. There's so much overlap in what Josh and I do, but also, like you said earlier, like adjacent fields, and so, yeah, I'm just on my newsletter. I occasionally pop up on social if I'm feeling like it, but sometimes I deactivate my account. I'm like get this out of here, so so I wouldn't like point you there necessarily, cause it might be ghost town, um but yeah, that that'll be the best place is the newsletter.

Josh Hall:

Yeah Well, Jamie, it's so good to reconnect with you. I love that. You're a shining example of how to be in this industry and do it sustainably, especially as a mompreneur like yourself, and it seems like you've struck a really good balance. So I think, before we hit record, you said it was cool to see me stick with it in this podcast, where it's at today, but likewise it's really cool to see you stick with it and know when you need to back off things and know your limits, and especially with social media. Like you know, it seems like all the gurus who tell you you need to be on social media constantly. You've kind of gotten your own way, but it's worked out so yeah, thank you Cool, see, thanks, awesome.

Josh Hall:

Well, till the next one, we'll get this going and, uh, yeah, I think it's going to help a lot of people. So I really appreciate you, jamie, and thanks for your time and expertise, as always on this.

Jamie Starcevich:

Yeah, thank you. See you episode 600,. I guess Right.

Josh Hall:

Yeah, yeah, that's right. We'll try to do it before five years.

Jamie Starcevich:

We'll stay in touch better, all right? Thanks, josh.

Josh Hall:

Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly wish I would have heard this about 10 years ago. That would have made my life so much easier. Love this idea of a light branding package. Real excited to hear from you how you're going to be able to implement this in your business. You can leave Jamie and I a comment by going to the show notes for this episode at joshhallco slash 373, which is where, again, all of the links and resources that we mentioned.

Josh Hall:

Jamie does have her type swipes offer for you and she's got some really good resources over at her website at spruce roadcom Again linked at the show notes for this one and I want to hear from you on how this helps you out. So, again, leave us a comment. I read every single comment that comes into these podcast episodes and I'll let Jamie know to keep an eye out, so we would love to hear from you. Cheers, friends, to offering a light brand package to get you out of this very common situation and make sure you're subscribed, because we've got some doozies ahead on the podcast and, yeah, I'm excited.