Web Design Business with Josh Hall
The Web Design Business Podcast with host Josh Hall is here to help you build a web design business that allows you to have freedom and a lifestyle you love. As a web designer and web agency owner of over a decade, Josh knows the challenges, struggles and often painful lessons of building a web design business without any guidance, proven strategies or a mentor to help you along the way, which is why this show exists. Think of this podcast as your weekly dose of coaching, mentorship and guidance to help you build your dream web design business. All while having a good time doing it. Through interviews with seasoned web design business professionals and online entrepreneurs, solo coaching episodes with Josh and even case studies with his students, you’ll learn practical tips and strategies for web business building along with real-world advice and trends that are happening right now in the wild and wonderful world of web design. Subscribe if you’re ready to start or level up your web design business and for all show notes, links, full transcriptions for each episode, head to https://joshhall.co/podcast
Web Design Business with Josh Hall
385 - Designing Your Business Around You with Lindsey Freeman
Something I’ve learned over my 16 years of being self employed is the importance of designing your business around you. Not designing your life around your business.
That’s exactly what Lindsey Freeman, founder and creative director of Designed to be Human, and I dive into in this episode.
It’s easier said than done of course. And there are times where you need to do what you need to do in order to pay the bills but if you’re intentional about setting your business up (services, operations, clients, calendar, partnerships, etc) around things that actually GIVE you energy and not take it away, that’s success in my book.
Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/385
If you are talking out loud to your friend, write that on your website. Make it sound like you, because that's the worst If you're reading my website and then we're on this call and you're like, whoa, that's not the person, so that's a problem. That's the big branding problem. Right there there's an inconsistency. Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.
Josh Hall:Hey friend, it's great to have you here for this episode, which is a fun one, I think, especially for you, because we're really going to dig into building a business around you and your personality and what gives you energy, what takes energy away from you all those things. It's kind of interesting because I feel like we often build a business purely around either monetary goals or something we learn from, and those are all very valid. But whether you do it in the the outset of your business, or whether you do it eventually, I found that everyone gets to a point where you want to build a business that works for you, and that's really the heart of what we're getting into in this one. This is interesting because Lindsey Freeman, my guest here, is the owner and creative director of a brand called Designed to be Human that's designedtobehumancom, if you want to, to check her out and it's really about designing your business around you as a human being. Again, what gives you energy, what takes it away, what makes doing business sustainable without burning out that's kind of what I love about her and her mission. So this was kind of fun. It was kind of a half therapy session for me as well, because it really drilled into what lights me up and what I've learned as a business owner of of being self-employed now 16 years. So I hope a lot of what we discovered in this conversation and a lot of what we talked about helps you as well, whether you're early on and my goodness, would this be lovely to hear early on or if you're established and you're at a point where you want to avoid burnout and maybe want to pivot or rethink some things on how you structured your business.
Josh Hall:All that is covered in more. You can go to the show notes for this episode, which will be found at joshhallco slash 385. There are oodles of links that we talked about that can be found there. Lindsey also has some stuff for you over there at joshhallco slash 385. So zip over there. After this and without further ado, here's our conversation about designing your business around your human self. I suppose. Here we go, lindsay. So good to have you on. Before I even hit record, we got going and I'm like, okay, hold on, we got to record this, so let me point it over to you. What did you want to ask me about? What is it? The human, human design, yes.
Lindsey Freeman:So human design is essentially this like energetic system. It's the science of our aura. We all hold a magnetic, electromagnetic frequency around us, and so josh is talking about how he loves to build community and I'm like, oh my god, what's your human design like? Are you a fourth line? Because that's all about networking and people and relationships, which I'm deeply curious about now. But yeah, so I use energetics to inform, branding and website design and business.
Josh Hall:So is it? Is it similar to like Enneagram tests or personality testing, or are those all? Because I there's a blurred line between like basic personality profiles and then things that get a little woo woo for me. But I will agree, and there's no denying there, there's an energy around somebody when you meet them. So are those like similar, or is it something vastly different?
Lindsey Freeman:So it's not a personality assessment. It is you're taking in astrology, the Ichi and Kabbalah and the chakra system. So that might be a little woo for you. But I know a lot of people have somehow translated the human design with Enneagram. But I haven't gotten that far as far as Enneagram and human design correlation.
Josh Hall:But some people are able to see the patterns between the two, which I'm like interesting and look, I'm an open book to talk about anything, so even if it's woo, we can explore it. Like what is is undeniable, and I think where this is really important, especially with ai today, is like there's just such a separation between humans and, you know, computers and the difference there and I do feel like I've leaned more into, um, the personality side of things and just the authentic side of me and for me, as I mentioned before, we hit record like I just love community and I truly do love helping people. So when it came to really honing in on my business model, I made sure I chose something that was going to suit me. To answer your question about being a big community builder, I really got honest with myself and self-aware about what gives me energy, what drains me, what I'd want to do every day and it was community on a fairly small scale is just what I wanted to do. I wanted to know most of the people in my community.
Lindsey Freeman:I love it. And what was the initiatory? What happened for you to be like Nope, this is where I want to go and this is the direction I want to go into.
Josh Hall:It was. The two parts of it were personal and profit. The profit was I was like I wanted a recurring revenue stream. I was doing one-off core sales and launches and I really love I love doing that. But I wanted a more stable business model, just because I know the power of recurring revenue.
Josh Hall:And then the other part of that was I had hundreds of students and, aside from a few that would give me testimonials, I'm like I just don't really know any of them and I would love to. There were a few students who were really active on my social media and I got to know them a little bit and see some of their results when they would let me know. I'm like man, how cool would it be to bring these people together and to be able to truly do this together and help them on a deeper level. That was the impetus for thinking about launching an initial community. My community was first a backend offer, so it was courses first, then community, and then the community just took over and then I pivoted my business model to be a community membership first approach.
Lindsey Freeman:That's incredible, though.
Josh Hall:I love that, I mean, it's the best, but I don't think we're recording it. When I told you, it is not for everybody. And I do think, when it comes to knowing yourself and being self-aware and knowing your energy and what drains you and lights you up, community building is not for everyone. I really think some people should just be a service provider, or at least for a time. Some people should just be a product creator, like listen bro, you really don't care about people, you just want to make money. Just do the product thing, because you're not going to be a good community builder.
Lindsey Freeman:I love that you say that, because I always talk about like, why are we creating businesses that actually don't work for us? We're creating from the fears and the shoulds, and someone told me to do this, and then you're doing it and it doesn't feel good. So, people, if you're building a community and you hate building the community, the community is going to feel that Right, and so it's so interesting to be like people forget that they're in choice around the businesses that they create, right, and so I just love that you were so you know, intentional with like no, I want to build this community because I actually love people.
Josh Hall:Gosh, it's, yeah, it's so important, I mean, even for somebody just starting a business to get clients, you can take all that from from day one, you know, make it like don't do a service you don't want to do. I mean, it's interesting like this, the talk about like aura and energy I can't stress Well, well, like how important I've learned that that is in business. Longevity, you know I love it.
Lindsey Freeman:Tell me more about what you know about it thus far, or how have you used your unique energy in business?
Josh Hall:I mean it's mainly just to avoid burnout. That's really it. I mean I just I've seen so many like there's just nothing worse than waking up and being like, oh god, I don't want to do this. And for web designers and entrepreneurs, freelancers, really the balls in your court. Like you control it. You control your services, you control even your clients and to some degree on who you're attracting, you control all the variables. You control your schedule. It may seem odd, may seem off, but you control, you can control nearly everything in your business. So yeah, that's just kind of what I've landed on. I realized, you know, 15 years into being self-employed, is man you got to protect your energy, like at at all costs.
Lindsey Freeman:Oh yeah, 100%. The more supportive you can have, like your environments be, the more you're just going to amplify and amplify and amplify Absolutely. But that again goes back into choice. I feel like people don't forget. People forget that they have choice in creating their businesses right Because you're just like. You can control all of these aspects actually if you're setting yourself up correctly and not from a place of burnout but from a place of alignment. And that's what I like to talk about a lot, Because with the energy types in human design, you can see when you're in burnout. So if I'm in bitterness, I'm not in alignment. I'm assuming you're a generator, just based off of what you said.
Josh Hall:What are the human design categories I'm familiar with, like disk profile testing, where you're like dominant or you're interactive or you're stable or you're cautious but what are like the profile or what are the categories for human design?
Lindsey Freeman:so we all have. We have five different energy types and we're all here to live out a specific role, which is why, when you're building a team, to have the right people in the right roles, because then that's where you're just going to start creating services and product products from its like, highest vibration versus this, like I don't want to do it blah vibration. So we have 500 types. We have the manifestors, which are here to inform and initiate new ideas into the world. We have the projectors, like myself, to guide and see systems and create efficiencies within teams. We have the reflectors, which is only 1%, but they're here to really reflect back the environments.
Lindsey Freeman:Is this working? Is this not working? Because if a reflector is unhappy, then it's not working, but if they're really lit up and they're excited about it, it's working. And then we have the generators and manifesting generators, and those are the main, the core energy types, and that's what the world has been built upon, and they're here to do and build things. The manifesting generators are here to build really fast and do a lot of different things. And then we have the generators, who are supposed to really figure out what their niche is and build from there, which is why I think that you are a generator, because of the consistency that you have with just showing up every single day and when you think about your business right. It's like if you're in deep satisfaction, you're in alignment right, but if you're in a frustration, then you're out of alignment Makes total sense.
Josh Hall:It's interesting, like do you feel like people come into this at a certain age or with more like life experience, or do you feel like some of this is set pretty early on? And I I asked that because, as I, when I went from being a really a course creator in my title to being a community builder, I look back and I'm like, wait a minute, I've been a community builder since I was like an early teenager. Like with groups of friends, I would connect with them. I enjoyed I love like matchmaking and getting people together and be like you would love this person Like. And then when I started a band and we were finding our members, I did a lot of that. And then I mean every one of my entrepreneurial journeys. I've loved the networking and matchmaking aspect of it. So I feel like I found that out about myself early on. It just took me years to realize that's really what I mostly do. What do you think about that? Can you come into that later on in life or is that something that you find early on?
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, so I mean, human design is all about the blueprint, like, so it's the energetic blueprint that you were born the day time location, that's your energetic blueprint. So it means that you've had access to this energy your entire life, right? So it's it's so interesting because I feel like, with society, we get told do this, go to college, do the X, y and Z, and so we get off of, like, what is our true path, right? And so maybe that's why it took you a little bit longer to like, come into, like, oh, I actually can do this, but you've been already doing it. It's just being consciously aware of your gift within building networks and communities, right, but you've always had that gift.
Josh Hall:When it didn't feel like work. I think that's and I've heard so many entrepreneurs talk about struggling to offer and price something that they do, that they love, because it doesn't feel like work or it doesn't feel high value because it's easy to you. But I have this conversation with my wife all the time because she could not be more opposite than me when it like her doing a virtual podcast interview would be like her night nightmare, but she just would really not like to do it.
Josh Hall:um, on our hosting one, oh both, yeah, um, and it was funny because the the live event I told you about that we just had for my community where, where uh, sam, our mutual friend, sam sarsden, out in bend oregon we love you, sam. He's gonna be listening to this one. He freaking rocked it. Uh also is an amazing karaoke artist that we found out. But uh shoot, uh shoot. What was I going to say? I was. What I was going to say was, um, oh my gosh, I lost it. Oh, no, your wife.
Josh Hall:Yes, yes, I. So I told her, like on this live event, I'm just going to do a live, like coaching set, like live, just Q and a live. And she was like that is my literal nightmare. She's like I would need to have it all on a list what I'm going to say, be prepared. And we couldn't be more opposite. Like I feel like I'm better, you know, off the cuff and I'm only saying that just because those type of personality traits and the energy I guess, whatever we call it like, I do think it's just so important to make sure you're self-aware with everything you do in your business.
Lindsey Freeman:Oh, 100%, and like, if you are like that, where you're like, oh, let's do off the cusp, I'd be like, oh, you're probably a third line, you like to experiment with things or you have an open throat and you can just take on whatever the conversation goes, et cetera, et cetera. Where she's probably you know there's like so many things and variables, where you'd be like I'm going to assume you're probably more introverted, so you're a second line. You know there's a whole it's it's very nuanced system. But it is fascinating to see like no, this is actually my personality and then to see it like in, like a physical, like map form of your energetics is wild.
Josh Hall:It's so funny just because I've always been very I guess I've just been very weary of like all sorts of personality stuff, whether it's more just plain business pro, you know, personality profiles or getting into the more woo woo stuff. But I remember when I did that disc personality test years ago, I was in a business coaching program and I was like this just seems like horse shit, like whatever I'll do it, you know like it's, how could this, how could this test possibly know me? And it nailed me down to a T. I was like, oh my gosh, after doing this in-depth test it was just scenarios. It was like what would you do if this happened? What would your first response be? What would your second response be? And then at the end of that I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, like generations before us have really figured out a lot of this, this stuff. You know like where? Yeah, there's, there's.
Lindsey Freeman:I guess I'm just saying I'm very open more towards like understanding more about personality types, energy, all that good stuff no-transcript at, because we have a clear idea of who we are and our personalities and how our strengths and weaknesses work together or don't Right, and it's like, the more that we can have that self-awareness that you're talking about, I just feel like it just really opens up such a deeper connection between the people that you're working with, really the clients that you have, the community that you're building. It's just so you can interact differently with the people that you're around, knowing that like, oh, this is who you are Great.
Josh Hall:When it comes to branding and being a human in this tech, virtual world we're in? I mean, would you agree that there's just nothing better than just like being in the role that you feel like you should be in?
Lindsey Freeman:Oh my God, absolutely. My entire business is called, designed to be human, Like, all I care about is being yourself and with like the like. When you're forcing yourself into a role, you're not going to be actually activating any of the gifts that you're here to bring into it, Right? So if you're trying to force yourself into a role that you're like I actually hate all of this then the work output is going to suck. So, like why are we putting roles in plate or people in roles that they don't even want to be in? Like, logically, that doesn't make sense to me. And we're constantly doing it. We're constantly forcing people to be like hey, we know your magic, we're going to put you in this like other box that has nothing to do with what you like to do. You know it's like doesn't make any sense.
Josh Hall:Side note for hiring. I learned this when I started working with subcontractors. One thing I learned early on was to ask them like what are you interested in doing? I don't want to give you work you don't want to do.
Lindsey Freeman:That's a great question.
Josh Hall:Like I've been really, and what's been shocking is like how thankful people I work with respond to that. They're like oh, I really appreciate you know, I appreciate you looking out for me and I'm like it just seems like a logical win, win, win. Like I don't want to be giving you work that you don't want to do. I don't want to get work that is obviously work you didn't want to do. And then you know it's just people getting that work on the outside. They're going to tell it's like oh, this was half ass or whatever. So, um, yeah, just from a hiring perspective, like I've learned that's such a it's such an easy thing to do. Just ask your people, like what do you love to? What gives, gives you joy and energy? Let's do more of that. And then if you don't like this, maybe this other person will like that.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, 100%, and you can. You can tell when people are starting to like waiver. If you're like, hey, these are the roles that I need, and they're like, oh, yeah, I can do that. Like there's like a tonality shift that happens when they're not in authenticity, like that they don't really want to do it. Like you can tell when they're like, yeah, I can do that too. I can do that too. I can do that too, cause they just want the job versus they want instead of actually being an integrity with what they actually want to be doing.
Josh Hall:What about, early on, folks who don't really know, I mean especially entrepreneurs? We're all probably just going to try a bunch of stuff out and and yeah, sometime. I mean just case in point. I had no idea I would love doing courses. That was not something I'd ever planned to do, it just kind of happened, I just kind of stumbled into it. I think accidental entrepreneurship is oh so common and it may change. I've seen it change over seasons to where, like something you really love doing for a little while, eventually you're just like I just don't want to do this anymore. What are your thoughts about like how to, I guess, give what, give yourself grace in experimentation times?
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, and I feel like the first when you're starting out with anything, please go and get really curious about everything, Try everything on it's. When you're like, no, this is where I'm going, but you don't want to be doing it, Right that's. And if you love doing it and then all of a sudden you're like I don't really want to do this anymore, then off board it, don't do it, or, you know, make it an. How can you put yourself in an environment where you're like this is fun, this environment's fun, Even if I'm doing something I don't like to do?
Lindsey Freeman:Right, there's like ways around to like making it move back into alignment and making that energy feel really good in your body, versus keeping like forcing to burn out. Where you're like I don't even why am I doing this? Like, why am I writing this newsletter to 20 people? And I hate doing it. Right, it's like there has to be other ways where I can show up and I'm like, whether that's video or that's podcasting, like whatever that is like go and explore, like you have to try it all on and then what are the things that you love to do the most? And then maximize those moments and then hire a team to support you in the things that you don't really want to do but have to do. But yeah, experiment with everything.
Josh Hall:What about the idea of giving yourself a reasonable timeline to make something successful? And I only say that because I see a lot of dabblers and a lot of dip in and outers. If you're going to do a podcast and it's going to help you grow your business, you can't just do 15 episodes and stop. I think there's ways to experiment, but I'm also. I guess the succinct question is like how do you experiment but also commit if it is something you think you're going to want to do?
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, it depends on, I mean, if you've, if you put in all the time and effort to start a podcast, I would be surprised if you stopped it after 15 episodes, right?
Josh Hall:That's really common, though, and I think it may be the strategy of someone, but I mean, I don't know the stats, but it's like shockingly high the number of podcasts that have less than 20 episodes. Do you know why?
Lindsey Freeman:people stop them.
Josh Hall:It's really hard and again, I think it kind of depends on the personality. If you're, if you're someone who just did it just to try to get more marketing or get connected, then you're going to burn out because it's it's not fulfilling you probably. But if you're naturally curious and you like people and you're interested in people, at the very least that would help you do something that you want to do week to week or month to month, so want to do week to week or month to month. So I think there's a lot of that Um, and I think people underestimate the amount of work that goes into it, especially when it comes to scheduling and systems and all that stuff.
Lindsey Freeman:Oh my gosh, yeah, systems are, I think, going to be the death of a lot of, uh, business owners. To be honest, that's where they get stuck and then you're, you're taken out of your zone of genius at the creation portion, um, but yeah, as far as far as like the, I mean you kind of do have the dabble and see if it's going to work for you or not, or if it's worth, and maybe it's something you put down and then come back to it. But if you're like this podcast is the future of my business, how is that? That should be the commit. If that's the commitment, then you're, even if you don't like it, you're going to keep doing it.
Josh Hall:And then you're like this isn't the commitment anymore. I love that we're hitting on this. This isn't something we've talked about much on the podcast, but this idea of committing to something and knowing that you want to see it through, whether it's like a 12-month program that you launch for clients or a bootcamp kind of thing, or if it is something that's ongoing forever until you close it, this podcast, I delayed it for over a year just because I knew when I launched this thing it's going to be for years and I'm not just going to just jump into this and then half-ass it. Like I guess the longer I heard what was the quote, the longer the commitment, the longer the decision to launch. I think was something to that effect. I I heard that framework and that terminology and I was like, yes, I agree with that. Like you can make a split second decision on something that's going to be short, short term, but like plan it, strategize it, think about it and make sure you want to do it.
Lindsey Freeman:If it's long-term, that's kind of where a lot of people are just like I'm just going to try it on, and then they haven't really thought about all of the things that you just mentioned. And then it's like, oh, this is overwhelming on top of the workload, like I thought I'd be fun, and then like the output's fun, but then the work to get there is like not fun, and so they're like, okay, let me just like step it back. But going again to like what are you committed in your business? Because you're always committed to something and if there's any doubt around, like oh, I'm going to go here or I'm going to go there, then there is no commitment. Actually, the commitment is I'm going to go after it, even if doubt comes up. This is the direction that I'm going, and I think that's what really holds that commitment For me.
Lindsey Freeman:This year is the only year I've actually done any marketing for myself and I run a six figure business and I've been doing that for over the last five years and I'm like no, I now I'm committed to a Sunday email and at least one real one real a week, because it's like consistency in that way has been you know something that I'm not as like. I'm like, ah, I am so referral based and network oriented and relational building. That it's like oh, I've always gotten it through my network, but this year I'm like no, I'm going to grow, I want to expand, I want to like meet new people, I want to be featured on podcasts and, like you know, like I have new goals because I feel deeply committed to my growth this year.
Josh Hall:I was just gonna ask what made you change? Yeah, so it sounds like a new vision. You probably leveled up. I feel like you probably got to a point where you're like this is a new chapter, new direction, new vision at least. And then, yeah, in order to hit that, your marketing has to change. Something's got to change if you're going to get to a new destination.
Lindsey Freeman:Well, yeah, and I don't know how Well you've been on a 15-year journey with entrepreneurship and you've changed and offered new things and now it's really focused on community. So, with me, I had been running my you know, design and branding studio just design, branding, website designs for five years. I was like it's missing the soul to it, like it's missing my deep, the wisdom that I can guide other people on their journeys, like I'm missing that energetic portion and like I also want to add in this business strategy, because when I'm in conversation with people building brands, they're not even thinking about how to like implement it into their business yet and I'm like, wait, that's like a missing link. So I was like how can I combine all three of them? And that's essentially how designed to be human came to be.
Lindsey Freeman:It's like I love human design, I love energetics. Like this this should inform, like you should inform your brand and your business. Right, because the higher, the more that aligned that we can be within ourselves, that's of course we're gonna make way more aligned decisions within our branding, messaging and then our business. So it's like of course that makes sense in my brain and so that's where I was like okay, we're changing it all. We're going to start a new branding studio called design to be human, and we're going to offer a done with you program called big brand energy. And it's at the intersection of those three things celebrating yourself, making sure that the extent your brand is an extension of how you feel in interaction. There's nothing worse to me. When I meet someone online and then I meet them in person, I'm like who are you?
Lindsey Freeman:Like your energy is not consistent and that builds like distrust Right, and then building a business that's sustainable, like why are we forcing ourselves to do that?
Josh Hall:If you started with everything you have in place now, five years into it, if you started with the weekly newsletter and everything you had in place five years ago, do you think you would have enjoyed it? Or did it take you that five years to kind of get here to this point?
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, I think so. I did actually start a newsletter. It's called pure fucking joy. No-transcript, this is how I'm here to serve Um. And it just like clicked in. I was like, okay, and now I'm this. And now I'm deeply committed. Now I feel deeply committed. I feel like I was always half in, half out, like, oh, if it doesn't work out, I could go get a job, even though I've never do that. Please don't ever put me back there.
Josh Hall:Well, I really like that. We're talking about this, though, lindsay, because I think a lot of people feel pressure, especially in web design, to, for example, offer ongoing SEO services, like Sam is doing, like long term, committed annual contracts. But if you don't know you really want to do that, I recommend focus short term, dabble a little bit in the short term, just do like a sprint, do like a 90 day challenge or something, and then, if you like it, awesome, but after 90 days, you really didn't enjoy SEO. Don't do SEO, you don't have to.
Josh Hall:I mean, even with the podcast, I did an interview series with other business owners in web design and I made it like a little. I interviewed nine people. It was basically like a test trial run of a podcast, and I just did this YouTube interview series and it went well. But what I gained from that is I really like interviewing and I really like talking to people and I like doing long form, so that gave me enough proof of concept to like okay, I'm ready to do the full podcast for as long as we want to keep this thing going.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, no, actually that's a great point. I love that to try it on and see if it works for you or not, because some people have to experience things before they know they even want to continue doing that. So I love that. You're like no, I'm committed to three months, nine interviews and then we'll reassess. It's the reassessing that I feel like people forget about in their businesses and it goes back into choice. I was told to do this but never questioned if it still works for me or not, because everyone's evolving and growing and technology changes so much within our businesses. So it's like how do we make it, how do we stay up with the times? And that's through reassessing and like relaunching and thinking about things differently or offering new products and services. So it's like you do need to experiment and see if people even want to hop on a conversation with you or want the product or service, and so I think the marketing interviews are so fascinating to be on.
Josh Hall:Yeah, are so fascinating to be on. Yeah, I just think it's good to experiment within like certain confines to see what you enjoy doing. A real world example of this I used to give drum lessons and one of my little students, one of my little guys it was just on my electric drum set. He did okay, like I could tell it wasn't his main thing, but he was pretty good and he did it. And then I taught him how to drum roll and he lit up. He was like Ooh, I saw him his energy change. He like set up straight and he loved to drum roll.
Josh Hall:He went on to be like an incredible percussionist in a marching band and he loved, you know, super fast drum, all six stuff Didn't give a crap for drum set playing. I could not be the opposite. I love drum set, didn't care about marching band stuff, but it just showed me like we experimented on drums and then eventually he found in his lane what he really liked to do. So I just I think it's a good reminder for everyone to like. You know, in the case of, like my folks, with web design, there's a lot of different things you can do try a few things out and then, as soon as there's something that lights you up, that's when you can dive in and commit to it.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, and I feel like too, I absolutely agree with that, and what's beautiful about that is like how infectious someone's passion is when you're working with them, or you can even see it in the equations, or how they're showing up in their marketing, like it's so important to find the things that do light you, that do light you up. And again it's like going back to what you were talking about earlier, where you're like, oh well, it's so easy, so it's just whatever. And it's like no, no, no, those are the things is X, y and Z, and yes, it can be. And also, it doesn't need to be your normal state of mind, right.
Josh Hall:What about choosing marketing strategies and aligning that? You know with what energize you? I'm sure you have this conversation with probably like every client. I see this question all the time, where our students are like I guess I'll start posting reels and I can hear it in their voice. I'm like don't do it. There's so many other ways to mark. You don't have to do that Like really nowadays you don't have to do anything. There's picked. I feel like if you pick two or three things you really want to do, or maybe just one. If it's a high converter, do that. What are your thoughts on that? When somebody's like oh, converter, do that. What are your thoughts on that?
Lindsey Freeman:when somebody's like oh, I guess I need to dance on tiktok now. Hard-hitting question there, josh. Um, exactly to the point. Like we're talking about experimenting with products and services and what you want to offer. You're gonna have to experiment with your marketing.
Lindsey Freeman:Like um, I work with a coach right now and she's like you don't even need to be on social or be seen. And I'm like I, you don't even need to be on social or be seen. And I'm like I'm a projector, I need to be visible, and I also want to be seen as an expert in my niche. So I do want to show up on reels, but that's only come into existence this year. So it really depends on what is your goal here and who do you want to actually work with? Because you could just build one-to-one relationships behind the scenes and you're not even on social.
Lindsey Freeman:For me as a designer, though, I feel like, yeah, it's very important for me to be like I'm an intimate relationship with you. You need to know who I am, what I'm about, what I can actually do and how I'm you know like what? Like I'm a human too, and my brand is called designed to be human. So it's like how can I be more human and more vulnerable in how I show up so I can support people in showing up in their businesses, you know, in authenticity, right? So again, I think the answer is what feels really good to you and what are your actual goals?
Josh Hall:How are you showing up on reels in the way that works for you, is it? You know it, you know what type like, how are you literally presenting yourself on reels? Cause I know there's so many different ways to go about social media stories, reels, posts, carousel, you know whatever, what, what works for you.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah. So right now I'm doing I'm only committed to one reel because I'm still building out the program and all these other things on the back end. So I'm like I'm committed to one reel a week, if not maybe a few more, but for me again it goes back into if it's not fun, I will not do it. So how do I make it as fun as possible to show up, record a reel and then make it fun in editing? So I do Sunday thoughts, which is like what do I say? Something about booping my cats and telling you about my life, or something like that. I should know it by now. It's the same intro every time. But then I just talked about like an insight that I learned about myself, or like about the work that I'm doing and just show behind the scenes of like my life, where I'm just talking and sharing a story and really speaking from my lived experiences, has been really well, good as far as like building more of the no like and trust factor. Essentially, and it's so interesting.
Lindsey Freeman:I'm like, has anyone even watching these? And right here, the instant gratification that we live in right now is actually a pain in my ass. Like I'm like, why do I? I'm like no one's even seeing this. Why am I doing this? And I would assume some of your similar to your students as well, and it's so insane to be walking around and bend Oregon and be like, oh my God, I saw your wheel. I really love this series, like I look forward to seeing it every Sunday. And I'm like, are you even interacting with? Like? I'm like okay, okay, people are at least you know, becoming aware of who who I am, cause I'm really all in on the building my personal brand this year too, instead of it's that I'm posting on my personal brand versus my like design studio. Um, uh, Instagram right now as well.
Josh Hall:Very cool. I asked that because it's another question I get often is like, what type of reel should I post? And I do feel like that's such a personal thing, Like do you just want to go face to camera, no editing? Do you want to edit a little? Do you want to do like a Sunday you know quick tip, like you're doing, or Sunday insight, or is it more text or visual? Like there's a lot of authors who you won't see their face much at all, You'll just see clips of books or clips of their writing or blog posts.
Josh Hall:I do think it's really, oh my gosh, this is so timely just because I've dabbled in certain things, especially on social media, and I'm like I just didn't really like doing that. I softly committed to doing a weekly quick tip on my social media this year and I got it like five in and I was like I just don't enjoy doing these and even if I pull a clip out of a podcast interview, it just doesn't seem to work right in like a short, like a really 27 or 30 second format. So I'm just like I'm just going to stick long form and my YouTube, like that's what I format. So I'm just like I'm just going to stick long form and my YouTube, like that's what I do and I'm just going to continue to do that. And even the way I use social media now I've learned to like do it in the way that I like showing up for it, Like you said.
Lindsey Freeman:And again, it's like the energy piece, like if you don't like showing up for it, it's going to be felt and seen. Like it's going to be felt and seen. So, but as it goes to reels, if you're talking about like that type of reels, like, oh, like, if you want, you get higher engagement when you're showing your face, always, with that said, obviously there are faceless accounts, but they just don't do as well, as like make sure your face is in the first screen, like there's so much strategy around the social reel, and like making sure they're moving your hands and breaking the pattern of the scroll, and you're like, oh, my God, just let me just share what I need to share.
Lindsey Freeman:But there, are there are a lot of techniques. You're like, wow, the human brain is like fascinating the things that we have to do just to get your attention people.
Josh Hall:Hello, let's talk about authenticity. I feel like this is probably something you have plenty of thoughts on. It's funny when I hear people talk and I think a lot of people in your space and branding and and visibility and showing up and being yourself I hear this term often about like be your true, authentic self, and I think a lot of people just think that means that you can just cuss when you feel like it instead of holding back. But I feel like there's a lot more to it than just that, would you agree?
Lindsey Freeman:No, I just want to say fuck all the time.
Josh Hall:You just must let it go. You know what, like I do feel, like I think that's just like a common thought, it's like, oh, they can just be more vulgar. But no, I feel like there's actually a lot more to that. What, what are some? What's the onion of authenticity that you help clients peel back?
Lindsey Freeman:oh, that's a really good question. Me, it always comes down to like what do you think about when you're not in your work? How do you exist in your friendships? What is your most natural way of being, without, without any sort of thought of like, oh, I should say this or I should do that? It's like whenever we're coming from the shoulds, that's when I'm like you're out of authenticity. So when you're like I, if you were just, you just talked and this is like, whatever comes up is exactly what you're supposed to say, that's authenticity to me, that's alignment to me. Right? It's when you move from your body into your mind and you're allowing your mind to make these decisions of like. Should I say like, okay, but based on the strategy, I should go do this and you're like get all like analytical about it. You get so stuck in your head. Then you're coming across as a robot and we don't want that either.
Lindsey Freeman:And yeah, if your authenticity is cussing, then throw in whatever you need to, but for me, it is just really about how do you want to exist in the world? What is your truest form that makes you feel so like? This is me. I think I just changed my value proposition to be like creating brands that make you say, oh my God, that's me Right, it's like what is that? And like we could take that energetic or like those like key moments of that is me. How do we then build a brand world around that? Because that's when you're really going to attract the correct people for you, that you actually want to work with More that you can be you, more people are going to see that, and then those people are like that's my team and then they're going to come to you. That's how I see alignment and authenticity. How do you see authenticity, josh?
Josh Hall:I'll go back to our recent in-person event. Everyone. There was a couple of quotes that everyone kept on repeating and one was your vibe attracts your tribe. We talk about that quite a bit. It just kind of articulates what you just said there, like what you put out is is often you know what you're going to get back and you know we just bring up sam again. It's interesting because, like sam, web designer pro, my community is very diverse in every metric. We have people who are right in the beginning. We have people who are really established. We're people who are like loud extroverts. We have people who are really established. We're people who are like loud extroverts. We have people who are super quiet introverts every everyone in between.
Josh Hall:But there is like um, I guess it's a vibe. There is like a you're probably gonna be pretty dang cool, you're gonna be super helpful, you're gonna be very nice and you want to succeed and you want others around you to succeed, like those are kind of the core. I should probably take the transcript and put that on the sales page. Those are like some of the core things that are just I've found to be in every member, especially those who are really active and are killing it. People who don't share one or most of those, just they're usually not going to last.
Josh Hall:You get weeded out if you're, you know, not a cool, not a cool person and not helpful and not it's, it's like too infectious to or it's too um, it's too it's, it's almost like too good of a vibe. And if you don't fit in that, yeah, I feel like it's properly weeding out. Folks who are the like seven figure hustlers who just want to make a million dollars as fast as they can. Yeah, um, um, because we haven't a couple of those people dip in and they haven't been rude or anything, but they just tend to leave pretty quick. They're like okay, I need you know, you need to like go over fish, I gotta go yeah, yeah.
Josh Hall:Yeah, there's a lot of that too, but, um, yeah, that's kind of how I. I view that in a way is like just the vibe you get there. The personality types may be very different, but it's like the core, it's the vibe that is under all that.
Lindsey Freeman:Well, that's your why. All those values that you just stated, I'm going to assume are core values from your why and your purpose. Right, so you're attracting that in. So what are you doing in your branding that are in your brand and any of the products that you offer, where you actually get to attract that? Because, for me, I think it's how you show up and your presence and how you are. If they're hearing you from a podcast, they're like, oh, this is how he's talking to like other people in his community, great, and he's this helpful and oh my God, he's. You're getting this type of like time. Yeah, I would love to join the community, but what do you think it for you in your branding? How is that? What are you doing to attract that?
Josh Hall:I think that's it right. There is just yeah, I I'm definitely like if we were having this conversation in person at a coffee shop or over a beer, it would be the exact same thing. Um, might be a little bit louder with a beer, you know, but that's it really is like I've definitely gotten more and more to the point where, like, there's no LinkedIn facade. It is like I'm showing up with a t-shirt, this is who I am, this is what we do. I think, yeah, being authentic, basically, I guess for me means no mask, no fakeness. I'm going to say hot dog and goofy stuff. I'm going to say dad puns, it's going to be all the things that, yeah, there's.
Josh Hall:Just I don't feel and I think it helps because I didn't come from a corporate background and I've always been very, um, been a bad boy, been in a metal band and not been in the academia world, so I just never fell in line to that kind of stuff, in all honesty. So I just have always I've learned more and more, just like, especially now that, like I've made millions of dollars doing this. I'm like now I have like the financial proof to be like I'm going to do whatever the heck I want. So if it's not your vibe, all good. There's other people who you can go to. So I think for me that's kind of where I've landed on now. At this stage it's like there's just no reason to put a filter. I'm not going to be fake in any way you've literally proven everything.
Lindsey Freeman:You're like, yep, I'm gonna do it my way. And then I and look at, look at the roi on this right like you have everything. You have all the stats now to back up all of your belief systems, which is really cool as well what if you don't?
Josh Hall:what if you don't have the stats and the financial proof?
Lindsey Freeman:and no one knows you can you? You can just be. I just feel like if you're just starting out, you're not going to have that. But if you know and you are true to yourself, and how can your truth ever be in doubt? If you're coming from I know I want to create this versus I should create this.
Lindsey Freeman:That's a very different like. You are in empowerment and that means that is magnetism to its like highest form, where it's like I should do this and then there's doubt because you're like oh, I don't know if I should or not. That's doubt, right. And then you're not really accessing the open portal of the miracles that can come into into your world. Like, where were you at when you first started? I know you were a freelancer first and then community course and then community, but you had to learn all of these things to be able to teach in the way that you do, to then understand how these this is how my, my clients work or my students think about. They need a community to be supported. Like everything informs you to where you're at today no-transcript.
Josh Hall:Well, like for me personally in the early days, one thing has been consistent in everything I've done, and it is truly that I just really enjoy helping people. And it was true in my band days when we were playing around and we were, um, you know, like we were pretty rock band, it was still like it was a good, there were good vibes in there. It wasn't like, wow, these guys are dicks. It was like no, like they're like, if you're going to want to hang out with a band after the show at their merch is going to be us, like we're going to talk to everybody, we'll have a good time.
Josh Hall:Um, so I think that spirit went through even into the very, very early years of me starting my business. Even though I had no social proof, very little education or skillset, I still had that spirit of like I want to help this business. And I started out doing graphic design and brochures. It was like I'm going to put my heart and soul into this five page brochure and I'm going to do my best. It may not be amazing, but I didn't tell it to the client, but I was like I'm really going to care and I think care like genuine care One thing I teach in my business course is that if you don't have expertise yet, just start with care, because care I've found will really get you a long way, especially when you don't have skill set and expertise and experience in your corner yet.
Lindsey Freeman:So I guess to answer your question.
Josh Hall:What's that?
Lindsey Freeman:And in the world of AI, like just your human care is, goes such a long way.
Josh Hall:I'm so glad you mentioned this, because we kind of derailed right from the outset with this idea of AI, but I mean, I think even more so. Everything we've talked about to this point is how we separate ourselves from AI 100%.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, and I think that you can like. Obviously, ai is such a huge supporter in like writing copy and it's like is very supportive. But like I had like a cold, can I tell you about a little experience?
Lindsey Freeman:I just said so I got a cold email from someone like a web designer or whatever, being like hey, I could white label for your, for your business. I'm like, okay, who is this? And so I click. I'm like do you even do good work? And so I click on the website and I look and I'm like this isn't.
Lindsey Freeman:This feels like an AI generated website and none of this feels like a real person is behind this and I don't know who this person is. The only thing that made me be like oh well, there must be some truth to this is that he had three testimonials from people saying his name and I was like well, they look like real people. So I was like, okay, we'll keep this. We'll keep, we'll keep this the meeting on Cause I do need like a Shopify, like developer, just in the back pocket if that happens, right. But I was like no, I really have distrust in like, is this spam or is this like? Like who? Like? There's none of you in this site. The only thing that makes it real are those three testimonials, and they're video testimonials. If it wasn't a video testimony, I'd be like this shit is fake. So I don't know how. Have you had experiences like that where you're like this is a robot oh, especially now.
Josh Hall:I mean I'm on a still a very low scale compared to, like, high end entrepreneur, like you know, higher end entrepreneurs and authors and stuff. But even at the scale I'm at right now, I'm getting daily multiple emails that are like they're all using the same subject lines or the body is the same, and I'm like, or it's like navigating, so using all the chat GDP terms, like, uh, you know navigating something, or unleash, unleash your certain talents, Like okay, obviously you AI'd this. It's funny because, when it comes to standing out, particularly with emails, one thing I've really challenged myself with is like if I were introducing somebody in person, however, I would literally in person introduce them. I'm going to make that my headline. That's like one little tip I've learned.
Josh Hall:I introduced a couple of colleagues recently and separately I've known them. They're in the same world and they hadn't met each other. One's a podcast host, One was looking to get on podcast. I thought to myself literally how the F have you two not met? And that's what I made the headline. I literally put how the F have you two not met? And they both opened it up immediately and they were like this is great. So, yeah, I've thought about that when it comes to any sort of whether it's cold outreach or warm outreach, like un-AI-ing the terminology as much as possible. It's interesting because I've come around over the past year way more to AI, but I'm still very, very careful about staying authentic and my voice in everything.
Lindsey Freeman:Oh yeah, yeah, I actually just had this branding project too. That happened and they had filled out the entire brand therapy form using AI, chatgpt, and I'm having the copywriter create these brand statements and then the tones off because it wasn't created by your voice, and I'm like, oh my gosh. And there's a little bit back and forth and it wasn't terrible, but it's just like what are we trying to say here? If you don't even know what you're trying to say, you're allowing a computer to form thoughts for you and that's a problem, because we're not going to be able to communicate who you are if you don't know who you are. And that's the whole point with this whole like starting with the energetics and then having that inform the branding and the business. It's like let's get really clear on who you are and what you sell, so then we can bring clarity to the other major platforms for you.
Josh Hall:How do you train AI models? How do you help clients use AI but stay within their you know we call it authentic self or brand voice. I'm just thinking like Circle, which is the platform I use for Web Designer Pro. They recently released AI agents and it's really cool because you can literally have like an in-house AI bot that is only trained on the stuff in the community but you can prompt it to be like be really short and direct or be friendly and enthusiastic. You can give it a little bit of like your personality traits. So that's kind of one way I've tried to use AI but also keep it within my again my vibe way I've tried to use AI but also keep it within my again my vibe. What are there other methods that you've seen work well for literally training AI to make sure it stays within your like brand voice?
Lindsey Freeman:Well, usually I just have them fill out the, so I come up with all the brand statements, the brand strategy around everything and essentially put all of that information into the GPT and then let's see how it plays out.
Lindsey Freeman:I haven't don't get me, I have not mastered that at all. It's just kind of like playing around me like, hey, this is all the information on the my client. Now how do we? Can we create a web copy or page or sales page off based off the information that you know in this tone um, but yeah, no, I'm not even I've bought in a few of those and I haven't even gotten through the courses yet of oh, you can create your you know bot. That's just for your brand copy and all your marketing, and I haven't gotten through those yet. But I would suggest don't use the AI yet when you're filling out the stuff, because we need to know what your voice is, so then we can make sure that the tonality in throughout the rest of the website makes sense, cause that's the worst part is when your website doesn't feel like an extension of you, which goes back into the story, previous story of like. Am I talking to a robot Like Eddie? Who am I talking to?
Josh Hall:You know, and something else I meant to mention when you asked me a little bit ago what's how I show up online and what that means to me as far as being authentic with how I show up online, I just vividly remember this it was one of my first web design students said that what made him trust me in my courses was that we were in a Facebook group together a big web design group and somebody I think I posted one of my videos and somebody left a pretty like rotten kind of snarky comment. Somebody left a pretty like rotten kind of snarky comment and he said your response made me trust you, because I don't remember what it was or what I said, but it was friendly. It was a stern, like stood up for myself. But also I didn't degrade him publicly in the forum or cuss at him or, you know, get defensive in that way, cuss at him or, you know, get defensive in that way. I just like um, I again he I don't even remember, but he just said, like you know, you responded in a way that made, made him respect me and trust me.
Josh Hall:So I've thought about that too. I do think it's those little interactions. It's a comment on a social media post, it's a DM, it's a. If somebody says no, how do you respond to that? Are you like, well, fine, don't come on my podcast, I don't want you anyway. Or are you like, no problem, we'd love to have you on when it's a good fit for you? Just something as simple as that. I think, especially when it's public, those little micro interactions, I think, add up and make a big impact.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, I love that. You said that too, because you're talking about oh, everyone in my community is kind and like. You responded with kindness and yet a firm boundary of like. I don't know exactly how you responded, but I'm assuming all the values that you hold in integrity within the community is how you responded to that comment.
Josh Hall:Yeah, and this was actually before my community. This was in like a um, a public Facebook group. That was huge, but even more so with that idea. If you're in a public Facebook group of tens of thousands of people, you may not get Like you mentioned earlier, you may not get engagement and a like or a dislike, but people are going to see that. So I think, even more so, being really really careful and authentic with how you respond is key.
Josh Hall:I mean, some of the top web design business coaches or product creators can be viciously reactive towards criticism on their posts and stuff, and I've just felt like there's a part of me that wants to bite right back.
Josh Hall:But then I'm like felt like you know, there's a part of me that like wants to bite right back, but then I'm like is this gonna go well? It's almost like does this fit with me and my personality online and my? You know the vibe I've created like, uh, I've, I've just tried to take almost the high road and been like, yeah, if somebody says something, I literally just top of mind because a couple days ago, somebody on my youtube youtube can be a a hotbed for goofy comments so I bit right back on one of them. I was like wait a minute, I caught myself. I was like I don't need. I think I was just in a bit of a flustered mood at that point, and I think that's important to remember too is like our states change. As a human, sometimes we're in peace mode and things are great, and sometimes you're just aggravated, you're tired or you're cranky, like I got to remember, don't look at my YouTube comments when I'm feeling cranky.
Josh Hall:Save those for a better state.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, don't, yeah, don't, do that, cause we even within human design, you can see how you make decisions and if you're in a high or you're, that's just not where you want to make them from. But again, it's like it is about taking, like when people react, that actually gives me a red flag, because then I'm like, oh so, if I'm in like a coaching relationship with you and you're reacting hotheaded towards this one comment, I can't even imagine how you're going to treat me in a one-to-one, you know relationship. So it is very important, like how, how you promote yourself and then, and also how you defend yourself, are very crucial in how you are being perceived online. And again, if you are in a light like you, being hotheaded and responding like an asshole, that's not that. Maybe that was your truth in the moment, but that's not your true core identity or true core integrity of how you want to exist in the world. So why are you making a choice to show up in that way, right? Does that make sense?
Josh Hall:Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more, and I think it's a good challenge for everyone in this online world, especially if we have social media and we're public, if anything is public. Also, to remember, those comments aren't going to disappear, especially if a post is getting reshared or pops up on feeds. Like you do need to be careful about how you respond, and I think there's certainly a way to stand up for yourself and be stern, but also do it maybe not even with love, but with helpfulness, like, uh, that comment on my YouTube it's funny because I actually and it wasn't, it wasn't terrible and it wasn't something where I was like viciously getting back, but I was just a little snarky. And then, literally just a couple hours afterwards, I was like ah, I was like I think this video is actually going to get a lot of traction and I don't want that comment to be the one that stands out.
Josh Hall:So I edited it. I was like hey, I was like actually. I was like well, yes, you know that that's kind of true what you said. I don't agree with all of it, but here's, you know, here's why I did this, or what I think about this. So, and then he actually responded back and was like a lot nicer the second time.
Josh Hall:So it just showed me if I didn't edit it maybe he would have saw that like wow, josh is like actually a jerk, but no, like I took a bit of the higher road on that one. Yeah, I just love that we're talking about this because these are really important things that are very small and very micro but add up and make a really big impact. Like my student who said I didn't think anything of it, I probably laid that comment out and responded back to that negative one without even thinking about it. And then who knew? One of my first students would be somebody who saw that and was like, wow, that was the single thing that you know really helped me completely trust you, to invest in you.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, and you never know, like you just never know what's going to make that one decision for someone to buy from you either. So it's like showing up and like your utmost integrity is always going to be the way to show up what about salesy?
Josh Hall:What about sales approach? Because I see a lot of introverts and a lot of my community members who are like I love designing, and I think this is really common with people who are creatives you love creating, you love doing the work, but, man, do you hate selling it? Um, I mean, right, like I feel, like most people in the creative zones whether it's brand designers, graphic designers, web this is like the biggest thing is we love creating, we don't love selling. How do you encourage people to sell without, yeah, there's still being authentic and not being the sweaty used car salesman profile?
Lindsey Freeman:I mean, I think it's for me the reframe that I've had to do. It's like it's not it is selling but not using the word selling. It's like it's not it is selling but not using the word selling. It's like I'm literally showing people how I can help them with the products that I can. I can help you, I can help your problems and transform them into your desires. That's how I think about you know, showing up and talking about like what I, what I do. But again, this is the first year that I've started to sell things, right, I've always just been referral based, and so it is this whole year.
Lindsey Freeman:My keyword was unrecognizable and so how can I show up in a way that is uncomfortable enough and doing different things to produce different types of results, and show up differently because I want to be more seen and more of an expert and niche in the, in my, in the branding world, in the human design world, in the business world? And it's like how can we, how can, how, who do I need to be to show up in that? Right, and so selling? It's like, okay, well, I for me, I'm like okay, well, I'm just going to share what I do because I can support people from. If they're in point A, point a, I can move them to point c. Right, and c is the desire and a is the pain, right? How did you go about selling?
Josh Hall:yeah, it's changed so much. I mean very similarly, my web design business was largely referral based, so I similarly yeah, very, very similar cheers, like I didn't really need to like do too many, I did no cold calling or cold approaches, it was all warm leads I will never do cold.
Lindsey Freeman:I will never do cold.
Josh Hall:I will never do cold man. I mean it's funny because I have a couple of members who do it and they like it and I'm like I applaud you for enjoying that. I just can't imagine wanting to do that. That'd be like the last, like cold calling, would be the literal last thing I would ever do to get a web design client.
Lindsey Freeman:Literally the same and based off of my energy type. I'm here to wait for the invitation, not to initiate these conversations, like if you don't see me yet then you're not going to know. You're not going to like, appreciate and recognize my gifts.
Josh Hall:Yeah, it's so true. I mean and there is a difference between making your services known and then using a little bit of a push and pull to like get people to take action. I mean the thing with sales that I've learned whether they're cold or whether they're warm or whether they're hot, is there needs to be something to get them to take action? In some cases, like for people who need branding or logo design or graphic design or web design help, usually it's like okay, I need a new website. That's often going to be enough to get them to move forward. You could also do it with discounts and promos and limited access or booking. You could have on and off booking. There's all these different strategies for it. But yeah, similarly it's kind of funny because it's what I do now I don't have an open and closed model on my community and it's open all the time currently. That's going to change for my coaching tier, just because I'm nearly at capacity with that. So that's going to move to a waitlist here soon.
Josh Hall:But other than that, I really don't. I don't use any of the pressure tactics. The only thing I will do is I have tried to just give people the nudge with usually a one-month promotion thing I will do is I have tried to just give people the nudge with like uh, usually like a one month promotion, I'll say, like your first month is 50% off for these tiers. Um, I've been like I'm kind of in the middle of that right now. Honestly, lindsay is like it's so funny because I've had so many members join recently that say I've been listening to your podcast for two years, listening to your podcast for two years, listening to your podcast for two years, and I always knew I was going to join. I finally did and I'm like what the hell am I doing different now that I wasn't doing two years ago? You know like what?
Lindsey Freeman:what? What am I missing? Cause I don't remember doing that much different, but they just wanted to make sure you'd stay around long enough and that's fair, and that's that's very, very fair.
Josh Hall:Um, but yeah, there is that like I struggle with that too, which is like I really don't want to sell to somebody, like here's what I do. Here's the proof.
Lindsey Freeman:I'm so good at what I do, just pay me, thank you.
Josh Hall:Yeah, we may have to have a followup, like how do you sell without breaking the like I mean, this is so common with folks who do webinars which is they'll teach, and then they're super comfortable. And then it's like, oh God, here comes a slide with the sales, oh, there's a promo code. I'm so nervous. And then I remember the first couple of webinars I did and I'm like, by the way, if you want to, I have this course, don't worry about it, you don't have to join it, but it'd be a good next step. Now I'm so much more confident and like okay, this is a free stuff, but if you really want to go deeper, here we go. This is where you're going to get the results. But man, early on, that's so hard.
Lindsey Freeman:That is so hard because you're too. Not only are you like, no, you will get value, you're also proving to yourself that you do offer value. There's like, honestly, mindset is so key in business, and like creating the offers and selling and all of that. It's really about like, do you believe in yourself? Do you believe you are worthy of the success that you, that you want? And once you get those, like when you get really confident with those things, I think it just is like no, I know I am the anecdote to your problem. It's the clothes.
Josh Hall:It's the close. It's the close that's so dang hard in the sales problem. The sales process could go through multiple iterations and people could be with you for a pretty extended period of a sales process, but yeah, it's like the moment, it's like when they're paying you. It's the actual close. Especially if it's a service, where you're like on a call or you give them a proposal that needs to be signed within seven days or something like. That's where, yeah, the, the, the close itself is where I think the interesting challenge is staying true to yourself but also giving urgency, being stern in a way that's like confident that's. I guess that's it, yeah.
Lindsey Freeman:There's something to, or it's like you, kind of like that's, I guess, that's it. Yeah, there's something too. Or it's like you, kind of like there's a trust factor too, like you just have to be like it will. If it's meant to be, it will happen, as well as, like you, if you've done all those tactics, it's like you can't push people into it and because you might just get a client you hate too if you do it, that really like gross, like salesy way and like, yeah, and you don't want people to regret a purchase right, especially if you're about to work with them, like you don't want someone signing on for a branding package, and they're like, oh, dang it you forced me to do this.
Lindsey Freeman:I'm like what You're at your own will, but a lot of people don't aren't in radical like like responsibility either. So it's it is fascinating, the sales. Have you taken a bunch of sales courses out of curiosity? No, you haven't.
Josh Hall:I'm just like. I literally have not taken a single. I've never read a book on sales. I have not taken a course on sales. It is remarkable that I provide for my family because I have not. I mean, yeah, I mean I should, I should have, I probably should. I mean I guess I have. I've read a couple. I've read some books that are sales-ish, but it's more marketing versus like a close. It's just interesting because sales are so different as a service provider, like a webone talking with somebody, or you're in a small group, um, the mindset is completely different versus I'm doing. I'm doing a lot of selling now via my podcast without even making it. It's not a sales call like this. This is a sales call in a lot of ways, um, so yeah, it's kind of interesting. Now I selling uh, what's the word I'm looking for On indirectly. I guess indirect sales is kind of your community though.
Josh Hall:Yes, for sure. I mean that my biggest converter, honestly, is bringing community community members up into my podcast and we just talk about their journey, their experience. I don't sell a dang thing, I just ask them questions out of curiosity. Inevitably they're like oh my God, pros helped me out with this, the community, your coaching, whatever, which is just the best Side note everybody can do that with customers, like interview your customers, interview your customers, interview your customers Low sales, low pressure, you don't? Yeah, I mean, that's just, that's one of the easiest ways. And then you have a testimonial you can put on your website.
Lindsey Freeman:And I've seen a lot of people do paid like they're doing paid podcasts for like a series of like 10 different podcasts to transform your sales launch or whatever. And in there they're having actual podcasts someone who's already taken the course and I'm like that is so genius. It's exactly what you just said, but they're actually charging like $37 for this course and then you get upselled into the 30 or $3,000 program and you're like oh, so you're also getting paid for the sale.
Josh Hall:Yeah, that's true. Yeah, and I do think at scale, that's probably a good way to go with low-end offers to where it's like, yeah, that's a no-brainer, you know 27 bucks, 37 bucks, and then, as long as it resonates and you like the vibe and it's good, then it's like, okay, much more likely to do that three thousand dollar purchase if you have even some skin in the game with even it's 27 bucks.
Lindsey Freeman:yeah and it goes back to the testimonials of the robot website. I went on. I'm like, oh well, he must be real. We got real people talking to the camera.
Josh Hall:I mean, I can't stress the importance of standing out nowadays and just being real, and there's so many. What are some other ways you could be real? I mean that, like um, I call it like a founder's note on on your website, which is just, like you know, meet who's behind this brand. If you don't you said it earlier you don't know, like that website, you have no idea who is behind that.
Lindsey Freeman:Not even an about page.
Josh Hall:Yeah, is it a team? Is it a person? Is it completely AI? Like, now more than ever, get yourself on your homepage, do a video, do a little walkthrough video. I mean get yourself on your homepage, do a video, do a little walkthrough video. I mean you look at your website and it's very, very clear who is behind this. Like this is not a. I'm on every page, yeah, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think web designers in particular may feel like that's vain or, yeah, like you're just putting yourself out there too much, but it's important to remember too. A lot of people will not end up on your homepage. They may end up on another page. So any other tips or tricks that you help clients out with with just showing up, particularly on your website, like being real and being you on your website.
Lindsey Freeman:I think it just comes back to like, what are you actually here? What are you trying to? How are you trying to serve people? That's why we start our businesses. We're here to serve other people. So how can we get really clear as to why that matters to us? Right, and so I do think that about page is like one of the most important pages that you have.
Lindsey Freeman:And then going again into like, not that you have to get on Instagram, but how can they see you in video and inform, because they like, if I'm talking to you, like they're going to be like, oh, as soon as I can get someone to sit across from me, that is when the magic actually happens, right, and so when they can actually hear your voice and like, see your mannerisms and, you know, hear how you talk, like that's where they're like, oh God, I feel like I've already worked with her. I'm already working with her. Or like, oh gosh, someone noted. I feel really warm in her presence. Okay, this is someone.
Lindsey Freeman:If I'm ready to then take the plunge into branding, I'm going to look at what Lindsay's doing, right, so I think it's just how can, if you are talking out loud to your friend, write that on your website make it sound like you, because that's the worst is like if you're reading my website and then we're on this call and you're like Whoa, that's not the person. So that's, that's a problem, that's the big branding problem. Right there there's an inconsistency.
Josh Hall:I love that. Also, when it comes to like headlines, I couldn't agree more. Um, there's always a you know, not a debate, but everyone, especially web designers and brand designers alike, struggle with like what should my headline be? And I've just more and more so gotten to the point where it's like yeah, whatever you would say to clients if you're in a networking group and somebody asks you, what do you do? If you say, like I always said, I build awesome websites, it was a simple one that was it.
Josh Hall:I mean that could. There could not be more of like a classic midwestern. Like some people may say awesome isn't very professional, but no, but that's people for you.
Josh Hall:I made a six-figure business doing saying I build awesome websites, so like it. It really it worked for me and some people are a little more articulate or a little more crafty or or niched or particular, but, um, yeah, I guess I just I couldn't agree more to in in words and visuals on pages to show up on your website. You said that the about page is likely the most important. I can back you up on that with stats. The second most popular page on my website was our about page, my team page. People want to know who's behind it. First was portfolio. They want to see the work, they want to see what you do and then they want to see who the heck's doing it.
Josh Hall:Side note, lindsay, do you have analytic? Um like? Do you look at clients analytics or page views or anything like that in your packages? Um, no, I do not. I just feel like that would be a huge selling point for you in your branding, even if you were just to get access to like a handful. So I did. I always get into like coach mode by the end of a podcast interview.
Josh Hall:But I do feel like if, look, if I were in the branding world, I would say the way you, you know, put yourself online on your website. Like most people don't know, your most popular page or your second most popular page is your about page. And here are the stats. Look at our client. Look at their page views. This is their. Their second most popular page is your about page, and here are the stats. Look at our client. Look at their page views. This is their second most popular page. It's their about page. Yeah, I just, I see a lot of people. It's like an afterthought, the about page is the afterthought. It's like, well, let me do my homepage and my services and then we'll do the about page. Oh, and then we'll do the contact page. It's like, oh, you mean like the two pages that are most important to get paid, who am I going to work with? And then you know, click to move forward or pay. Like, yeah, those need to have absolute priority. There's like three or four pages that need priority on most websites.
Lindsey Freeman:But well, in the branding process, I'm like we're excavating who you are. Your about page is absolutely one of the most important pages because if you are selling one-to-one services, they need to have a good sense of who you are. Or like I don't want to work with someone I don't like. It's just not going to happen.
Josh Hall:Yeah, don't like, don't trust, don't know.
Lindsey Freeman:Don't know. Are you a robot?
Josh Hall:Yeah, I mean no like and trust is so corporate and so cheesy and so dated, but it's also so relevant, like it's so true. Couldn't be more relevant today than ever.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, especially in the world of AI.
Josh Hall:Well, Lindsay, this has been awesome. What a fast hour plus this is. I really, really I really love your vibe too. Right from the get go. We hit it off. So, speaking of your website, not AI at all Tell us about where they should folks should go to connect with you, and then I think you've got some free resources as well, right, yes, yes.
Lindsey Freeman:So connect with me. I'm designed to be humancom. If you're interested in the human design portion, you can go to design to be humancom. Forward slash HD chart and you can pull up your unique energy type. And then I'm also offering 20% off my big brand energy program. So just feel free to DM me big brand energy, and on at it's Lindsay Freeman, and we'll get you set up. Send you the links.
Josh Hall:Listen to that confident pitch at the end. Confident close Can you buy my.
Lindsey Freeman:I'm just kidding.
Josh Hall:You can if you want to, no big deal.
Lindsey Freeman:No big deal, I'm not even coming to the website, it's fine.
Josh Hall:This is great. We'll have all that linked in the show notes, of course. So, listen, is there anything at you know when we, when we hang up the call here, you're going to be like dang, I wish I would have mentioned that. Is there any? I want to give you a last closing thought. Is there anything that we haven't hit on that you think would be really helpful? When it comes to this? I don't know what to call this podcast episode. Ironically, I'm going to have to use AI to help me, but we talked about a lot of different things. Anything else that you're like we should hit on this?
Lindsey Freeman:I think just the last key insight or thing I want to say is that honor your truth in everything that you do and the more that you can make decisions from who you uniquely are and be in celebration of your uniqueness, that is where you're really going to create that magnetism and build that business and build the services of products that are really going to help the people that you're meant to help, and so that's like the biggest thing. It's like let's get more curious about ourselves.
Josh Hall:Boom. Well said, All right. Lindsay, thanks so much for coming on. I really enjoyed the chat.
Lindsey Freeman:Yeah, I'll talk to you later. Bye.
Josh Hall:Fun, one right, very different for the show, but I think it's very, very worthwhile. Building a business that works around you, your energy, the feeling that you get when it's Sunday night and you're about to start the week have you set your business up to make Sunday nights fun? That's the real question. Or you know, monday morning's fun and Sunday night a joy, because you're like, ooh, I'm excited to dive in. That's what I want for you. That's truly what I hope that you got from this conversation, so would love to hear your thoughts.
Josh Hall:You can go to joshhallco slash three, eight, five to drop a comment. There is all of the links and resources in the show notes for this episode. Again, joshhallco slash three, eight, five. There will be links to connect with Lindsay on Instagram and a couple other platforms, and you can go to her website, designedtobehumancom, and she's got some freebies there for you, along with some other resources that I hope will help you out. All right, friends, stay subscribed. A lot of other doozies here on the way. In fact, we've got some very big episodes coming this summer, so I can't wait to release those here soon. Cheers, friends.