Web Design Business with Josh Hall
The Web Design Business Podcast with host Josh Hall is here to help you build a web design business that allows you to have freedom and a lifestyle you love. As a web designer and web agency owner of over a decade, Josh knows the challenges, struggles and often painful lessons of building a web design business without any guidance, proven strategies or a mentor to help you along the way, which is why this show exists. Think of this podcast as your weekly dose of coaching, mentorship and guidance to help you build your dream web design business. All while having a good time doing it. Through interviews with seasoned web design business professionals and online entrepreneurs, solo coaching episodes with Josh and even case studies with his students, you’ll learn practical tips and strategies for web business building along with real-world advice and trends that are happening right now in the wild and wonderful world of web design. Subscribe if you’re ready to start or level up your web design business and for all show notes, links, full transcriptions for each episode, head to https://joshhall.co/podcast
Web Design Business with Josh Hall
392 - Getting Clients through Instagram with Marie Brown
Repeat guest and founding member of Web Designer Pro™, Marie Brown, is back on the podcast, sharing what’s working for her with getting clients through Instagram.
And she offers a much-needed reminder that, even if clients don’t mark down “found you on social media,” it doesn’t mean it’s not working.
The more touch points you have and the more you stay top of mind, the more likely you’ll land more clients.
Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/392
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I had a client whose website I built probably about 18 months ago, and I met her it must have been six or seven years ago for the first time and we'd occasionally bump into each other at a networking event.
Maria Brown:We met at a networking event and she says to me she knew then that she would get me to build her website, but she just didn't know when she would do that. So being on Instagram and she's on Instagram has kept me top of mind with people like that. But whenever you ask them, how did you find me which, of course, like I have been taught well to do, I always ask clients where did they find me in the first place? You know she would have said a networking event and whilst that's true, I also did a very close friend of hers website and we've been following each other on Instagram over the years. So it took about four, five years between me first meeting her and her becoming a client, and if I hadn't been on social media and apart from the fact we did bump into each other a couple of times at the same networking event then she would have forgotten who I was.
Josh Hall:Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. That clip you just heard in the beginning is Marie Brown. She is actually a founder of my community, web Designer Pro. I have been able to track her progress for years now and I have been so impressed with so many aspects of her business. In fact, she was actually just added to our recent inspiration area in Web Designer Pro. But one of my favorite aspects about what she does in her business is the way she markets specifically with Instagram and how she gets clients both directly and, as you just heard there and as we'll expand on, indirectly.
Josh Hall:So if you are interested in using Instagram and knowing some of the top proven strategies to get clients quality folks via your Instagram and to stay connected with them, and how to do it correctly and how to do it, maybe, sustainably, I think you're really going to take a lot from this episode. You can connect with Marie at her website, beyondthekitchentablecouk. She was also a guest on the podcast three years ago. I can't believe that back in episode 229, where we talked about more Instagram strategies, but in this one we just get a lot more granular and a little more detailed to see what has worked for her for literally years now. So, without further ado, here is Marie to help you with getting clients through Instagram. Well, marie, it's great to have you back on for round two of the podcast here.
Maria Brown:Oh, thank you very much for having me back. It shows that maybe I didn't do such a bad job first time around.
Josh Hall:You absolutely did. No, I was just saying we just came out with the Inspiration space in Web Designer Pro, which is just like a collection of just examples of members and their sites and their services and their offers that I often refer to, and you are one of them, and I think one reason I consider you a true web designer pro and somebody who I like to reference and show what you're up to is you have stayed really consistent with marketing. I mean, there's a lot of things that make you fit the bill, but I feel like an area of superpower for you is just your consistency. It has not waned, it has not trailed, and that's not the case with most people, especially on social media. So I thought it might be kind of interesting just to dive in to see what you've learned and what's working, what's not all the above.
Maria Brown:Yeah, well, it's interesting you say about consistency, because I've been inconsistently consistent, I think, um, in that it depends upon the platform in part. So Instagram is my main social media platform, but I've also dabbled in LinkedIn. I have also, or I do have, a podcast. I'm not going to put it in the past tense, but I haven't recorded an episode probably for about a year. So, and which platform I've used has changed over the years.
Maria Brown:I've generally always been consistent on at least one platform, um, and at the moment that's been that is Instagram, and I have help. I do not, and that's probably the biggest tip I would say in terms of being consistent is having somebody who will help you. I create most the content, but I get a nudge every now and again that says we need more content, or that you know the person that helps me. She will come over and she will record some reels with me, and when I know she's coming, I know that actually, okay, the night before I've got to think of some ideas I've got to and we'll record them, and then she's got, you know, a bunch of content, that ideas I've got to and we'll record them, and then she's got, you know, a bunch of content that can be scheduled over time and she'll repurpose it. So all of the ideas, really, and all of the content is coming from me, but she's repurposing some of it and say she gives me a nudge when we're when we're getting a bit low, which is at the moment, what?
Josh Hall:is the uh. What's your cadence? Are you doing? Do you do bulk enough content to do once a week at least, or I know it's fluctuated. You've tried some different platforms. What is your typical cadence?
Maria Brown:so on instagram it's three times a week and it's been three times a week for over six months. Uh, obviously, when it was podcast, I was doing that once a week. And facebook. You know, if you go back before instagram, when I was mainly on Facebook, I can't remember what that was probably again about three times a week on a platform, and I'm trying to do three times a week on LinkedIn as well. At the moment I'm not that successful in terms of being as consistent, but I'm not doing too badly and I also email my list weekly as well. I've been consistent with that again for probably a little less than Instagram, but since about February time I have I've sent an email every week to my list.
Josh Hall:So weekly email three times a week on social ideally, are you repurposing the exact same content for LinkedIn at all, or is that a different approach of content, style content?
Maria Brown:for LinkedIn at all, or is that a different approach of content style? So I don't tend to repurpose my Instagram content. I sometimes repurpose my email to LinkedIn or vice versa, because I take a slightly different approach on my emails. I do what I call my Sunday sermon. It is actually on a Wednesday, but I always try and do a story that has a lesson in it and sometimes I've repurposed those for LinkedIn or indeed. But I always try and do a story that has a lesson in it and sometimes I've repurposed those for LinkedIn, or indeed, sometimes I've had a story that's done well on LinkedIn and I thought I could repurpose that for email, and email tends to be longer than the LinkedIn post. So, yeah, there's definitely some repurposing between those, but occasionally I'll repurpose something on Instagram, so I put a post out as we're recording this. I put a post out yesterday on LinkedIn which is going to it's in the bank to go on to Instagram in the next couple of weeks.
Josh Hall:Gotcha. Yeah, why not just duplicate the content from Instagram to LinkedIn? Is there a certain reason? Do you feel like it's not? As does it just not perform as well? The video I mean, I've heard conflicting things about video on LinkedIn. Actually, how timely. We're recording this the week of the episode where Joe McKay, a LinkedIn expert, is on the podcast talking about LinkedIn. So, yeah, why not just literally copy the content straight over and duplicate it to LinkedIn?
Maria Brown:Yeah, it's funny because I've just listened to about three quarters of that episode I haven't quite got to the end yet and yeah, he makes some great points, particularly about the content post. I kind of feel that, my well, I have some commonality between Instagram and LinkedIn in terms of the audience, so some people would see it twice. Now many people will say that's not an issue at all. Personally, I don't like to see the same content on more than one platform if all of the time. I don't mind it occasionally. That's just my personal preference. But the rest of my audience on LinkedIn, I feel, is quite different to my Instagram audience and so I'm just not sure it's quite the right content to put out for my LinkedIn audience. So I do. I'm not very good at doing case studies, but a case study is something where I would do it on Instagram and I would do it on LinkedIn. But some of my, my reels that I do on Instagram I just don't feel, as I don't feel necessarily right for my, for my LinkedIn audience.
Josh Hall:Is that just a gut feeling that you're following, or do you have any data to support that?
Maria Brown:I have no data whatsoever. My audience on LinkedIn is funny and I think that's one of the reasons that I haven't done as well on LinkedIn. But I used to work in corporate and I still have a lot of people from my corporate background. I've also attracted an awful lot of coaches on LinkedIn and an awful lot of people who just want to sell to me A lot of people who are definitely not going to be clients and I now usually just decline their invitation. So, for example, developers from overseas who have no interest in being my clients. They just want to sell to me and I'm not interested.
Maria Brown:So I don't have a great audience on LinkedIn and I say I feel it's more coaches. A lot of it is more people trying to sell to me A lot of people from my old life, if you like, and some of those may need a website or know people who do, but it's just a very different audience. My Instagram following is very much my target audience and the other thing is stories don't work as well. Those those stories that have a website lesson don't work as well on Instagram. They're too long in terms of the words that you need and I get them on a carousel, but again, it would just be too wordy to to get the point across.
Josh Hall:No, that's a good point there. Yeah, I've definitely seen a a difference with written based content content like that that's good for long-form posts or email versus short-form snacks like Instagram. Now, you mentioned the difference there between the type of folks who are following you on LinkedIn or connecting with you on LinkedIn. Is that still intentional? Because what you just said about your ideal clients being on Instagram, I would wonder, like, why do you even need LinkedIn? Or are you just using it to continue to expand your professional network but not really relying on it as being your direct clients? Is that kind of a play for you on utilizing both of those channels?
Maria Brown:That's a really good point and that's why I blow hot and cold on LinkedIn is I'll give it a go for about six weeks and I think I'm not getting anywhere, and I'll just come off it for a few months and then I'll, and then I'll try again because I think it should work for a business like mine, because but Instagram is my primary platform, so it's just a way of reaching. I've got plenty of connections on there and I just feel that I'm missing out if I'm not on there. But it is an inconsistent.
Josh Hall:Interesting. Yeah, just kind of dissecting as you're talking like why, almost like, why LinkedIn, why even bother? But I imagine there must be like an ulterior motive, maybe aware of it or not, that maybe it's just a connection, you know, professional network builder that maybe is worthwhile having there, Because I think it's important to remember too. Everyone probably needs to have a main channel, but you always want to have some sort of backup or something in there. I mean, even as a business, I have my newsletter, my podcast, my YouTube channel, a few different assets that I could ramp up or ramp down depending on the season. So it sounds like for social media it's probably a wise strategy too, without getting sucked into trying to do five different platforms well, which we all know is just impossible without a huge team at scale.
Maria Brown:Yeah, so I mean, I very much feel that Instagram is my main platform and I'm trying to post there three times a week and I've got help to make sure I keep up that cadence Emails I'm doing once a week and again I'm scheduling those out. So I'm getting a lot of help from chat GPT to write those emails so I can batch them more easily than I used to be able to. And then LinkedIn is ideally three times a week. But hey, that's very much the third channel, if you like, and so I do what I can when I can.
Josh Hall:Now I think it was right before we hit record. We were talking about you being in a commuter town outside of London. Are you getting clients locally as well? Is this feeding into in-person strategies or is the bulk of your leads and clients coming from social media and the marketing that you're doing online?
Maria Brown:Yeah, they are very much local. I mean, they're not entirely local. I'm in the uk, I've got a client in australia, um, but they are. Most of my clients are local and they a lot of them are either from the town that I live in or the town next door to me or certainly within a 10 mile radius, not really london also good, good yeah, so and and where.
Maria Brown:And it's been a deliberate strategy to target a local audience just because they very much fit the demographic of the type of person I want to help. So we live in a, as you say, a commuter town just outside of London and it's a pretty wealthy area and there are a lot of women in particular some men as well who have often precipitated by having children but some kind of life event. They have decided to move away from their corporate or public sector career and set up on their own, and so we have an awful lot of yoga teachers, nutritional therapists, interior designers, etc. And often they will start by having a website that they've built themselves or that their neighbor's brother's cousin has built or something like that for them, and it's been very much it will do, for now it's a presence. They haven't wanted to invest the funds.
Maria Brown:And where I like to come in is once they're two or three years down the road and they are actually starting to take the business more seriously.
Maria Brown:It might be that their children have moved off to secondary school and they're older and a bit more independent and they think, ok, this is now serious. I want to. I want a professional image to go alongside taking my business more seriously and they are very much the kind of person that I'm ideally suited to help. You know that was my story in many ways, and so you know they don't want to work with. They find working with a woman usually more comfortable because they don't necessarily worry about the fact that they're, as they put it, technophobic and they feel they can just relate more, and so I go to a lot of networking events that has that kind of person. So there's a local Mums in Business, for example, which I'm very active in, and other networking events as well that have that demographic, and others often so there's a lot of marketing you're doing that we're not seeing just on your Instagram and your newsletter and stuff.
Josh Hall:It also helps, by the way, marie. I mean your brand. I'm sure this was intentional. I think we talked about this in your first episode. You were on 229. That was already like three years ago, isn't that wild? But I remember you saying we talked about your brand and how, beyond the kitchen table, it's very cool to have a brand name. That is also the service that you're helping clients with. Like you're literally helping them take their little side business from a laptop on their kitchen table to the real world and really making this thing. Sell Hats off to you for doing that.
Maria Brown:I don't know if that was in the plan from the day one or if that was just your story and, like you said, it just naturally led to helping your clients because you were there not that long ago, but uh, it's funny because it was part of the original plan, although I thought I was going to be helping e-commerce businesses and early on I think the first couple of clients I got weren't uh, one was a coach, one was Pilates teacher I think they were my first two and and then I did a skincare brand.
Maria Brown:So that was e-commerce. And then I decided you know, you're going to sell a lot of pots of face cream to pay for a website and the customer journey is very different. So I decided to focus on the service-based businesses, because if you're I don't know a physio, or you know even a yoga teacher, you don't need to sell that many toward in order to be able to recoup the cost of a of a website. But if you're selling pots of face cream or candles or t-shirts or whatever it might be, the margins are pretty low. So you've got to sell a lot more. And I just found it. I just prefer to work with service-based businesses. There are a lot more of them around as well yeah, especially based off of your area, it sounds like.
Josh Hall:Now the big question is if you're doing, if you're getting so many of your clients locally and you're doing a lot of in person things, you're comfortable, you're charismatic, you enjoy it, you're a people person, you like service based businesses and probably a brick and mortar stores, I imagine stuff like that. Why even worry about Instagram? Does that tie into the in-person stuff?
Maria Brown:Yeah, it does, and I get very few, very, very few clients will say they found me on Instagram. So my typical client is somebody who I met at some point at a networking event. They know somebody whose website I've built and it may be a close friend or it may just be that they've seen it and they have followed me, usually on Instagram, for a while and then they become a client or there's two out of those three, if not all of them, and I had a client whose website I built probably about 18 months ago and I met her it must have been six or seven years ago for the first time and we'd occasionally bump into each other at a networking event. We met at a networking event and she says to me she knew then that she would get me to build her website, but she just didn't know when she would do that. So being on Instagram and she's on Instagram has kept me top of mind with people like that.
Maria Brown:But whenever you ask them, how did you find me? Which, of course, I have been taught well to do I always ask clients how did you find me? Which, of course, like I have been taught well to do, I always ask clients where did they find me in the first place? You know she would have said a networking event. And whilst that's true, I also did a very close friend of hers website and we've been following each other on Instagram over the years. So it took about four, five years between me first meeting her and her becoming a client, and if I hadn't been on social media and apart from the fact we did bump into each other a couple of times at the same networking event then she would have forgotten who I was. So it's useful to stay top of mind.
Josh Hall:I'm so glad you told that story, marie, because that is what I think so many web designers need to hear, especially with all social media, it's very hard to track sometimes and, like you said, most people aren't going to say I found you on this channel, especially if it's in that form to where you don't have a huge household name, so you don't have hundreds of thousands of followers. But the power of that is just what you said staying top of mind, I almost feel like it's worthwhile having like an additional field. That's like okay, how did you find me? That's step one. What persuaded you to move forward? That's step two, because that may be the Instagram. It may be more of a conversion tool after the connection. So I really appreciate you sharing that.
Maria Brown:It's a bit like clients you know or potential clients. You'll speak to them and say my website doesn't bring me clients, and I point out to them that you may think your website's not bringing you clients, but actually what a website does is it backs up. You know somebody that you met at an in-person networking event or somebody who's found you on social media, and then they will look at your website and so the website actually is a deciding factor in whether they choose to work with you or not. But they won't say I found your website. They'll say I found you at a networking event or I found you at social media, but then they will always check out the website as well.
Josh Hall:Yeah, I mean, that's what most clients need to know is the only way a website is going to attract clients is if it is SEOed If it's SEOed locally or nationally, and then you could say, blog, seo, blogs, but even then you're going to need to have some sort of content with a blog or with services pages that is geared towards attracting people. That's the only way a website is going to naturally bring people. Everything else as far as getting traffic is marketing. Wes McDowell are you familiar with him? Youtuber?
Maria Brown:Yeah, I am. Yeah, I've sent me on YouTube.
Josh Hall:He. The last time I had him on I think it was, it's been a while, but he said something that is just stuck in my head, it's ingrained, and what he teaches his clients is that social media is the marketing department, Website is the sales department and there's a very clear distinction between those two. And I think if we, as web designers, did a good job explaining to clients that's why your website is not doing anything, you have no marketing team, so you can't just send a sales guy out in the field and make a sale. You got to send them to a networking group or whatever. So I really really love that idea, because into this idea of like Instagram, social media, I'm sure I don't know.
Josh Hall:You tell me, do you ever have those times where you're like is this worth it? Is it worth having somebody film me and do all this? But then that story of those little touch points that are ongoing. It's hard to measure. You don't know what post resonated with that client, but they see that and then finally they're like okay, Marie is, she's my web designer. The other thing I think is important to remember too is for referrals. Referrals aren't always going to reach out right away. Like you may have a client that raves about you and then somebody who needs a website is like, okay, I'll check Marie out. She may not want to hop on a call right away. She may go to your website and then follow you on social media and do a bit of creeping just to see, like what's your style, what do you, you know, give me some value, and then that's what persuades them. So I love this idea that what we're doing on social media or any type of online marketing is not all for lost. It's just hard to measure, it's hard to track.
Maria Brown:And I do often think is it worth it? But it reminds me of another story of a client who went ahead and they said they'd been following me for years, and so I actually did a story on Instagram about this and I immediately got a message from somebody else who said I've also been stalking you for years and actually you just reminded me. I think it is time and it was just quite funny that, say, I got two stalkers, as it were, in the nicest possible way, and they're both really really lovely clients, creepy stalkers at all, but I had two of them, uh, right together, and it's partly because I told the story of the first one.
Josh Hall:And the second one said I've been following you for three, four years and she was just at the point of pivoting her business and so it was the right time to get a new website that's, yeah, my gosh, the power of just being there and we can't be we can't be everywhere all the time, but if you can focus in, I feel like, on one or two channels like you are such a good example of that and staying consistent, like I said. I mean I've been watching you for years. You were in my courses early on and you were a founding member of pro. Like I've seen you, you've always been in my feed, whether it's weekly or whether there was times where it was a little less frequent.
Maria Brown:It's still consistent and I think that speaks to some power on that too, one of the good things about being consistent is you can actually then be inconsistent for a while, and I certainly noticed this with somebody else that I follow on Instagram and she used to be there all the time on stories and I met her at a networking event and we were chatting and I said, oh, we know, follow you on stories. She said I haven't actually posted for three months, really, and I just remember seeing her all the time and the fact that I hadn't seen her obviously for a little while it didn't really matter, because she was still so top of mind, because she had been consistent for so long.
Josh Hall:That's such a good point. It does kind of build up a bit of a almost like a credit right, almost like a bankroll, where it's like, yeah, you can take the foot off the gas, you can, you know what. You can go on vacation for a week or two and not worry about posting, like no one's going to care if you don't post every week. I feel so bad for creators who are super consistent and then they apologize because they didn't post a week. It's like you know how fast a week goes, it's so fast. So, uh, yeah, I think you're totally right.
Maria Brown:Yeah, people, it's been like when I came back with my email newsletter back in February, the fact I hadn't I can't remember when before it was that I'd sent a newsletter three or four weeks, maybe, maybe a couple of months, I don't know but I didn't come back and apologize. I just because most people wouldn't even notice that I hadn't posted for a while.
Josh Hall:Such a good point. Yeah, I did that with mine in July. Just recently, just a couple months ago. I didn't do a newsletter for three, three weeks because we did vacation and we had some stuff going on with my daughter. It was just a lot going on. I was like I just don't feel. I just don't feel like it. I got so much going on. Yeah, Didn't get one, like where are you? And I'd still had other content channels going Uh, and of course you can bulk things out. But all that to say, yeah, like take a week off, no one's going to care with your content.
Josh Hall:Marie, I remember one post from the our last discussion that has stuck with me, which is uh, and I want to ask you about, like, what types of content you're posting now, in 2025. But I do remember a funny one where you were like something to the effect of I, I didn't, no, I'd ever be the girl who wakes up at 5am and goes on a run and starts you know, starts the day and he said, nope, turns out I'm not. So you have some humor and you have some fun, like you mentioned. Is that still part of your content strategy? Do you balance, like fun, personal? You know you, your personality, but also helpful tips. What's your content? Look like now.
Maria Brown:So it has changed a bit in that on Instagram I have become more website focused with my posting, at least on the grid, which is not to say there's not occasionally other types of posts. I'm trying to think what I posted recently that might fall into that category, but I became aware that if you looked at my grid you wouldn't necessarily have realized I was a web designer. Yes, more of the posts were probably about web design than anything else, but I would talk about other forms of marketing or other business things, and yet I'd have more humorous things in. So I have actually tried to focus it more on websites than it was when we last spoke, probably. But in my stories I certainly post more personal stuff and probably more humor.
Maria Brown:So I have a dog who's just walked in and opened the door. He has not closed the door, but he features quite heavily on my stories because he's a little monkey. I mean, he is a dog, but you know he. He escapes from the garden and and things like that. So I often post about him on social media or on Instagram stories in particular, but not but rarely on the grid. So I don't know, maybe once a year I might put a picture of him on the grid because of course it always gets lots of likes and engagement. But I generally don't post that kind of content on my grid so that if you looked at my profile you would see it does look pretty professional. But I do try and bring in a little bit of humor, at least in the captions, and I probably do this more on LinkedIn and on my emails, to be honest, but telling more of the personal stories.
Josh Hall:But my Instagram grid is probably much more website focused, with an occasional thing that is more personal, just about business more generally, so you're using stories to be a little more loose with, just like if you want to pop in with something that's more personal, that's going to disappear in 24 hours. That's the strategy, because, yeah, your grid looks very professional, but not in a stiff, corporate type of way, like it looks fun, looks engaging. I'm curious with Instagram, do you make a distinction between posts in reels, or are both of those grids basically the same thing? Are you posting videos and reels just like you would as a post?
Maria Brown:Yeah, I am. So not every post is a reel. Um, and my grid, my normal grid, there is a pattern to it. If you look at my reels grid grid, there is a pattern to it. If you look at my reels grid, there isn't. So my, my normal grid, at the moment anyway, is sort of a light, dark, uh, alternate posting. So it looks fairly neat. But the but which one of those are reels and which one of them are posts? It would just be too difficult to try and keep that kind of aesthetic going on the on the reels grid as well. So we just decided let's just go with the flow for that, because you're doing a the on the reels grid as well.
Josh Hall:So we just decided let's just go with the flow for that because you're doing a lot of carousels, you're doing some text heavier instagram posts, and by text heavy I just mean there's not like. Like, what I'm looking at right now is just text in in the background color, more quote style, but that's obviously not gonna show up in reels. But you, you put emphasis and priority on the grid for posts versus reels.
Maria Brown:So, in terms of content, I do talking head reels, which are usually some kind of website tip. I do B-rolls with text over the top. In theory. There are also website showcases. There haven't been any of those for a while and I've never quite managed to find the right format for those. Sometimes I've used them as carousels, sometimes I've done those reels I've got another version coming out of that soon which I've been doing some trials on, trial reels on and then I do carousel posts. I'll do text quotes. I think that's about it. I think that's it. It's. It's basically four types uh pluses say, uh the, uh, the case studies as well.
Josh Hall:How are you balancing? You mentioned the, the DMS that you might get from somebody who's like you know they're just poaching you. They're not going to actually buy from you. How are you protecting yourself from just attracting web designers who are not a fit for you, not a client, because you're talking about website tips that could apply to all web designers, but you are doing a good job at seemingly keeping a boundary between website designers and then DIY business owners, or true entrepreneurs or owners.
Maria Brown:Yeah, I mean, coming on this podcast is not going to help me, Sorry about that. Or owners, yeah, I mean, coming on this podcast is not going to help me. It's an audience of web designers, but I don't mind if web designers follow me. To be honest, it is what it is. The more people I can get engaging on my posts, the better. But I do have. I have a lot of particularly my stories. A lot of my stories it's existing clients that see them. It's people I know personally who are probably not going to become clients. And then there will be a few, but not that many, that don't fall into either of those camps. A few of those might be web designers. Many of them aren't. You know, if I look at their profiles they're not. But I don't generally sort of track who they are and who they're not. I just figure I'm going to post the type of content that I think is going to work for my ideal clients and anybody else who picks up on that. Then you know, not a problem.
Josh Hall:Well, and I just want to overview, because I'm looking at your Instagram right now, let me just share some of these titles. I encourage everyone to definitely check out Marie, beyond the Kitchen.
Maria Brown:It's Beyond the KT is your handle on Instagram and of course, sadly beyond the kitchen table is taken and it's somebody who doesn't use that profile. It's a good profile, I think. Or they maybe just use it to view other posts, but they don't post as so annoying. I think it's somebody local as well. I must make an effort to find out who actually has that.
Josh Hall:Track them down, get the handle. Yeah, yeah, so you're totally right. I mean even just scanning your grid on Instagram a lot of these posts, whether they're carousels or reels my top sources for free stock photography. So, yeah, web designers could use that, but that's really good for clients. Websites don't need to be boring. Let your personality shine through, obviously very clearly to your ideal demographic. Did you build your own website? Good for a client? Not sure where to put your keywords? Again, some of these are web designer tips, but you also may be hinting at some helpful content for tech-savvy clients too. Who owns your website? The rise of zero-click searches Are your testimonials working hard enough? Why visitors are leaving your site without taking action? That's good. Keywords are not spaghetti. That looks fun. Yeah, All that said, want to get website photos you like? Read on. You're obviously like you said. It's very clear that your content is. Yes, it can be helpful for other industries and creatives, but those are the kind of things that I imagine you're helping your clients out with almost every project, right?
Maria Brown:Yeah, and I do want to have more website showcases in there because I think that's better at converting people rather than just educational content. So it's probably a little bit educational heavy at the moment, but that will hopefully change. It hasn't. If you go back a bit further. It probably has been a little bit more balanced. But I say I have just struggled with actually getting a format that I'm happy with to do those showcases, and I've also had the situation I've got a huge amount of work on at the moment, but actually the number of websites that I've completed in the last couple of months has been quite small, so I haven't had as many to showcase as ideally I would like.
Josh Hall:Oh gosh, so you could go back through your portfolio, even if it was three or four years ago. Still apply today with sharing what works. Did you happen to see the pro training that Kristen did last month about her launch packs?
Maria Brown:No, I have that one too. I must go and watch that one, because that's something I don't do. I don't do launch packs for clients, but I would like to, so it's something that's on my list of things to do in the summer when I'm quiet.
Josh Hall:I was just going to say, I would like, as far as like thinking of a good format to showcase client results. I mean what she did in that it's a Canva template, but the way she did it is so simple and so genius. And it's also she kills two birds with one stone with with those launch packs, because it's a testimonial and a case study, like you know, portfolio piece for you. But also she tags her clients and they can share it. So I would definitely recommend checking that out, just because you may see that Maybe you'll make your own version. But you might be like, oh shoot, yeah, let's do that, just try it. Maybe try it out. Just because I thought it was a really interesting way to again get the most out of a case study piece, in that you're tagging the client, they're sharing it.
Maria Brown:It looks awesome on your grid, on your portfolio. So, yeah, I will do that because, um, I didn't realize that was in there. That's, that's given me a an incentive, I guess, to uh, to look at that that sooner. I I did actually just want to pick up on something that you said about. You know those sort of more personal posts or those more humorous posts. Funny enough, actually, I am doing more of that in my emails and on LinkedIn than I am on Instagram, so I was doing it on Instagram, but, as I think I said, I do what I call my Sunday sermons on LinkedIn and on my emails, which is a story, usually a personal story that has a website lesson in it.
Maria Brown:Sometimes it may not be a personal story, so I did one recently about it's Wimbledon here and so about the lack of line judges, because they've just replaced line judges with tech and you know about the fact that they added style, and it's not just about things functioning, but actually, when it comes to a website, it's you know style is important as well as the functionality and asking people whether they missed the line judges at Wimbledon, for example.
Maria Brown:But also say, sometimes I'm using it as a personal story, usually something that I have, you know, to my own embarrassment. You know there's a time that my car broke down outside of my daughter's school when I was picking her up early, and you know, 17 year olds don't like to, they get embarrassed incredibly easily. We were going to have to, you know, call out the roadside assistance and the issue was the battery had gone on my key fob and we managed to get the car working, but that was because I ignored the, the uh, the warning light on my uh, on my car for a couple of weeks and of course, it then breaks down and again, you know there's website lessons, so it's funny enough. I bring in that much more personal into other formats and I haven't done it so much on Instagram. Maybe I should bring it back to Instagram, but it's a way, way of again a finding way to do that Uh, whilst also making sure that people know that this is about websites.
Josh Hall:How, when you're doing you have your social media person over to to do cause, you're doing like B roll video and stuff. Do you do enough content for a certain amount? Uh, do you have a timed amount of weeks or do you just kind of hope that lasts for a quarter? What's a typical session? How long does a session last to you?
Maria Brown:Yeah, it depends on how much time we've got between us. So it's at least an hour, sometimes two, and we do as much as we can basically. And we're a little bit short at the moment and she's going on holiday, I'm going on holiday, I'm going on holiday. So we're actually we've struggled to find a date, which means it's been a longer period of time than it would normally be. So you know, probably we were ideally we do them about every 10 weeks and we do enough content in that that space of time. So b-roll is obviously very easy to do. But the talking heads, it depends upon how many I've actually got planned out and how many we get done, because the other thing is that she turns up and I look through the list and go actually, no, I don't want to do that one, no, I don't want to do that one. So the list gets shortened. But I must get better at thinking okay, let's just do it and see how it is.
Josh Hall:So I would like to take this opportunity to have you coach me a little bit on this, because I'm planning on doing a similar shoot later this summer and I really just it's not something I've ever done, but I love the idea of having some more professional quality looking, both photos and B-roll and talking head kind of stuff that's probably out of my office and maybe going downtown it, but I'm like, yeah, do I like go with a list of like 30 topics and that are all under a minute and I just, you know, say them back to back to back to back to back and then we chop those up? Or do I do just, you know, a lot of stills and just photography, almost like a photo shoot? Do I do just B-roll of me walking around, looking at buildings and then I'm going to feel like that's going to be super goofy? Do I do it all and just see what works with posts? Do I just have the optionality? What do you think? What would you advise me as I get ready to head on this? You know, new journey of like having, you know, a bulk of like social media content.
Josh Hall:What would your advice to me be?
Maria Brown:a bulk of like social media content. What would your advice to me be? So it would probably be to try all of them. But of those B-roll is really easy to just take and it's interesting when you look at other people's Instagram feeds. You know this B-roll are just people doing absolutely everything. You know, there's a lot of people making coffees, a lot of people walking and seeing their feet. I mean, my feet are hideous. I would not subject anybody watching my instagram feed to seeing my feet, but, um, it's really interesting to see the wide range of things that people put b-roll.
Maria Brown:Uh, use for b-roll the talking heads. Absolutely, it's what questions people always ask. That's, that's the number one thing, which is, and actually, when you read through those list of topics on my Instagram posts, it is the kind of questions that people ask me all the time. That's what I'm posting about. So, yeah, very much a case of just thinking what they are and then just doing, you know, short, quick uh videos to go with them. Um, in my case, um, sorry, I've got too much activity going on in my house if anybody can hear the background noise. Um, in my case, um, we, we just take them on a, on an iphone. Uh, it usually takes me a few takes to get them to a sense that I'm happy with. And then, uh, my social media assistant, she will go off and edit it. So sometimes that I mean it may only be 30 seconds, but at some point I probably garbled my words and re-recorded that line. So she will go and she'll edit it and take it out, but it's a very light edit that she does generally.
Josh Hall:Are you going face to camera, like looking at the camera, or is it like kind of off to where it looks like you're talking with somebody, or just kind of like a thought leader type thing? I've seen different viewpoints on that as well. I mean, I think, inevitably it seems like you're always feeling a little awkward when someone's looking at you and talking online. Yeah, I'm literally doing that right now for YouTube watchers. But I'm wondering, like for social media, do you get better engagement if you're not staring straight at a camera?
Maria Brown:I don't know. I tend to stare straight at the camera and I have experimented with different places that I take them. So obviously having light, so I do them at home. So somewhere that's not dark is obviously the requirement. But I've got a great big window on my staircase so for quite a while I would sit on my stairs and do them. It's pretty casual. It looks like I've just picked up my phone and recorded a quick tip for somebody. Often do them on my sofa. I've done a chair by the window.
Maria Brown:I've moved around a bit in terms of and also in terms of what I wear. I've sort of for a while I was just a white top, but yeah, I've moved around in terms of where I actually get them taken. But it's just generally just pretty informal, as if you're talking to somebody giving them a tip. And you are right, I don't think you should look at the camera the whole time, which is what I'm doing generally here as well, because when you're talking, naturally, to somebody, you know you're looking away, you're looking down, you're looking up, you're not looking straight at the camera the whole time. Personally, I just look at the camera. It's very easy to overthink it and I think you've just got to remember that the first ones you do will be rubbish. But unless you do the first ones that are rubbish, you won't get to the good stuff.
Josh Hall:That's a great reminder and encouragement booster. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I'm just thinking through, like what's this going to look like when I do this little like branding content shoot? And yeah, I think you're totally right, this definitely gives me some confidence just to try it all and then just have the optionality. I think one thing I've learned too with video is that if you do a bunch of B-roll, those could be stills, Like you can take a still, especially if it's a high depth camera. I'm planning on having like a high depth shoot that could be a still for a post, even if it's video B-roll.
Maria Brown:Yeah, there is definitely more trend now I think that I have seen anyway of having text over images and text over videos, rather than just the plain background, which is obviously I've got quite a bit of on my feed. But there is definitely a movement towards having more stills and that B-roll. But you've just got to try it and see what works. You've just got to try it and see what works.
Maria Brown:The key thing with Instagram, with reels, certainly is to remember it is so short and certainly for you've obviously got people who follow you and they will give you a little bit more grace. But anybody who's flicking through a reel speed and if you want to capture a new audience which reels are really good for then you need to hook them in straight away, because unless you get them in in a second or two, you've completely lost them. So there are tricks that people teach about having some movement initially, so it might be movement of the head, for example, or even your whole body. So you'll often get people who will do something like a swivel in their chair straight away and that's just to catch people's attention.
Josh Hall:You mentioned some trends that are happening right now. With that especially, I do feel like the attention span of like the hooks are getting shorter and shorter and shorter. What's different now, particularly with like, instagram, marketing and maybe others, versus our first conversation back in 2022? What are some differences in three years that you've seen?
Maria Brown:I think it's got harder is probably the first difference because over time, people, there's a lot more content on the platform and with AI, there's going to be even more content. You can certainly see I have no idea what the numbers are in terms of the growth in content, but I would imagine it's gone up hugely since 2022. So you've got more content. You've got more competition. I don't think you've got any more eyeballs and certainly every January you see everybody with their New Year's resolution.
Maria Brown:I'm going to spend less time on my phone, I'm going to spend less time scrolling, and there are certain times of the year but that is probably true. I mean, most people probably get to about the 3rd of January and they're so fed up with something or other they start picking up their phone again and eating the chocolates. But there's definitely more competition. I have seen, certainly, video being more important and it's interesting to say that B-roll. You know, if you go back to 2022, I would imagine I can't remember that far back but we went through a massive phase of pointing, dancing and pointing reels, which I never did because they were just not me and I couldn't quite work out the you know the coordination for it anyway, but you had quite a lot of.
Josh Hall:I want to see the very tripping blooper reel. That'd be your most popular post right there.
Maria Brown:Yeah, probably. So there's quite a lot of that type of content and that's gone completely from the platform. It's very rare to see anything like that or even the sort of you know three tips and you know somebody just pointing at three bars that come up. You just don't do the pointing. Now they would just come up. So we've certainly seen a change in the type of reels that people do.
Maria Brown:So, yeah, talking heads are quite popular, but I have seen much more of just basically B-roll and with text over the top. That has become much more prevalent. Carousels have definitely made a comeback as well. They may well have been popular in 2022, but they had a bit of a dip and they have come back. Probably. Quotes and what I would call the slightly less meaningful quotes. So I used to quote quite a lot of Dr Seuss and Winnie the Pooh, two of my favorite philosophers in terms of things that, yes, that you know they apply to life. I don't really do that anymore and anybody can post that kind of content, and so, again, I think that has gone out of the way as well.
Josh Hall:Gosh, it is exhausting just thinking about keeping up with trends. Do you, do you get to the point where you're just like, like, what content do you like to create? Do you do you get? Are you at the point where you just do what you want to do, regardless of the trends? Maybe you'll experiment a little bit, or or how do you? I guess the question is like, how do you not get exhausted and how do you just do what you want to do with this?
Maria Brown:Yeah, I kind of do a little bit. I won't anything that I don't feel comfortable. So the dancing and pointing I didn't do when it was trendy because I didn't feel comfortable doing it, and so I won't do anything I don't feel comfortable with. Other than that, I will probably more follow the trends as much as I can. I've actually just had a reel I don't know what it is today actually, but you know I have just under 2000 people follow me and my reels will usually get seen by, I don't know, probably three, 400 people. But I had one that just last week was about 15, 16,000 probably now.
Josh Hall:Yeah, the Beyonce one. Look at that yeah.
Maria Brown:So, and that's something we'll probably try and do more of. So, um, it is to to explain to your audience it's, um, a remix of a Beyonce uh reel and I know that you know that's obviously gone out way beyond my followers. That's it hasn't quite gone viral, but it's. You know it's hit a bit of a wave, if you like, on the Reels tab and that's nothing to do with me. That's purely because it's Beyonce and I think I've got four new followers from it. It's not really going to the kind of audience I necessarily want to attract.
Maria Brown:But, it's quite nice to have something that has become. You know that's done well, and so we will probably do more of that. Know that's done well, and so we will probably do more of that. And and the caption came first, which is about Beyonce. You know Beyonce doesn't do it all. She's got, you know, all of these people to help her, and you know you can channel your Beyonce. You shouldn't be doing everything either, and you know there are certain things that you can delegate, your website being one of them.
Maria Brown:That was, that was a general message, so that came first, and it was actually the person doing my social media who came up with the idea of trying to find a Beyonce reel. She struggled to find an image of Beyonce, which is where we were going first of all, and so she said, well, we could do a remix of a Beyonce reel, and there are lots of rules around how you do remixes, and I'm not the person to to know exactly what they are um, but that one. So that's a trend, if you like, of doing. And she said, remixes are very popular. So, yeah, that's the kind of trend that we may do another couple of, but it's going to be a case of finding the right person and the right reel and then obviously having the right caption to go with it.
Maria Brown:So it would be somebody who would very much appeal to my demographics that I would be looking to do a remix of a reel for. So it's probably female, as probably, you know, probably in their 50s, maybe in their 60s. So you know, you've got the cast of Friends and you've got people like Madonna and Beyonce and people like that. Maybe even a Taylor Swift you would do. But I wouldn't choose somebody who would be appealing to a teenage audience, for example. It would be somebody who would either appeal to a mixed audience or certainly my kind of demographic.
Josh Hall:Is your social media person an Instagram specialist or is she doing a variety of social media platforms?
Maria Brown:Yeah, she's actually a va? Um. She's a little bit too busy to really be a. Uh, you know, I'd love to actually have her help more with my with. More generally, as a va? Um in terms of social media, instagram is what she knows best, but she is actually not. She's not a real instagram specialist. She is, so she's not. She's uk-based, so she's not. It's not like getting somebody in the philippines or somewhere like that. She's. She's not cheap, but also she's not as expensive as a as a social media manager necessarily would be. And she's somebody who, when I found her, was fairly early on in her journey, so she was happy to come over here, which is not very far from her home, and film stuff and then repurpose it. And, as I say, she actually likes doing the social media more than she likes doing any of the VA stuff. So she has ended up becoming a bit more of a specialist in that and she manages quite a few other businesses. I know she manages there Instagram as well.
Josh Hall:I was just thinking for you know, website business owners and small agency owners or studio style shops. Like getting an intern of a younger generation now is probably a genius approach to help with marketing, just because they know these platforms better than you know us old folk in our 30s and 40s and 50s. So it's like if you can get somebody who knows the trends or at least is in alignment with you, know some tips that you don't have to research, I think it's a bit of a hidden gem for marketing.
Maria Brown:It is, but I will say that, as a parent of a 20 year old and 18 year old, is that, although they know instagram certainly my daughter knows instagram better than I do, although she's more on tiktok, I think, than instagram um, but they they don't know the audience and you really need somebody who knows both. So, yes, things like recording your talking heads you could definitely get and getting somebody to edit it, that's definitely something that you could, uh, you could get somebody like that to do. But coming up with the, say, those, uh, the kind of remixes of the Beyonce video, you know, my daughter probably would never thought about Beyonce because that's not necessary. That's not her demographic.
Josh Hall:Gotcha. Yeah, I know I had a pro member blaze on a little while back who is killing it with his little real videos, and I learned a lot in that discussion. Just with the idea of like, how to like, how like he does not go past 27 seconds on videos I can barely get through. You know my sentence in 27 seconds less than you know, let alone do that. But and the power of like hooks and those little things like that, that I do think it's important to remember.
Josh Hall:These platforms are not that like long form content can't work, but I guess I'm I'm from a different school, basically, than what these platforms are catering towards. Yeah, so there is something to that of like challenging yourself to step out of probably your comfort zone, not to do content you don't want to do, but maybe to just restructure content, if it's going to be a priority, to make sure it's worthwhile doing, because, like, what's this? If I put a five minute reel out, that's just me talking. I know it's not going to do. Well, I would actually like to do that, but I just, you know, in most cases I just it's not gonna, it's not gonna be worth the time.
Maria Brown:So, um, that's kind of what's not and I can't remember how long reels you can do. Now I think they did merge them with longer form video. There may not even be any constraint in terms of how long you go, or it might be like 60 or 90 minutes, but yeah, I was thinking it was three minutes.
Maria Brown:Maybe it's different now it was three minutes and then I don't know whether they changed again, but I've never. I don't go up that long, um, and it is very, very difficult to keep somebody's attention for that. Instagram's not really the platform for that. The other thing to say, actually, on reels, um and I say this more from a user point of view is always caption, because I, whether it's stories or whether it's a talking head reel, always caption it, because so many people, uh, watch Instagram when they're with the sound off, and I do that because you know there's other family members around. They don't want to be listening to my Instagram reel.
Josh Hall:Yeah, great point. Such good tips here. Marie Well, this has been a very fast hour. Always enjoy chatting with you and catching up. I know we're going to follow up in pro. At the time of this recording we just crossed mid-year, so I'm excited to hear how the year has gone so far. But yeah, I just want to say publicly you're such a great example. It's one of the main reasons I wanted to include you in the insproration new space in pro. I mean your design's great. You're super clear about who you serve. Your marketing has been consistent. Your Instagram is still one where, when web designers are like I want to do Instagram, but I like what type of content I'm like, check Marie out. This is a really good example. There's also a bit of a mix. Like Blaze I just mentioned is heavy on video. You're a bit of a mix of like here's, there's some video but there's some text and it looks fun and manageable too, and you're obviously key point of you not doing it alone.
Maria Brown:So, yeah, I heard the episode with Blaze, which was fantastic. I thought I'd love to do that and I just thought I haven't got a clue how on earth I would do that, so I would leave it to people like him.
Josh Hall:I'm reminded too, of how much work goes into 27 seconds. It would probably take me three times longer to make a 27 second video than to do this podcast episode. Like easy, easily. Three times longer.
Maria Brown:Yeah, me too. I wasted a whole afternoon doing a website critique of Amy Porterfield's website and I just it just bombed. It was so depressing because it'd taken me so long. Not just, that was not one that my social media person helped me with. Uh, you know, I I went through and I'd worked out what I was going to say and I had the screen rolling and everything like that. I think the reason it bombed was because I didn't caption it because it was difficult to caption it with with the screen roll and it was. It was too static to begin with and I'd just completely bombed. And it's like I spent a whole afternoon and I was going to do a series of those and pick on other people who are famous's website and critique both positive and negative, and it's just like it's going to take me all afternoon and it's not going to go anywhere then.
Josh Hall:Actually no, yeah Well, as your your coach, my challenge is for you to go through kristin's training in pro and try the launch pack there. At the very least, showcase your work in a similar style. Just because it's I. I really think that's. That's going to be an awesome boost for you. And, and as you mentioned, that's like a conversion piece that's not just educational. That's like here's what's working for clients, here's a new site, that's, that's the like. Okay, I've been creeping on you for a couple years now. I'm ready to move forward, type of thing I will.
Maria Brown:I will certainly do that and I've got a reel coming out, hopefully soon. I'm not in charge of the scheduling, which is why it goes out three times a week. Um, I'm not in charge of the scheduling, but very soon there's going to be. I hit a milestone of 100 websites earlier this year, so that one one is going out, hopefully very, very soon.
Maria Brown:And that's a flick through, not of 100 websites, because I don't have screenshots of all of them, but of quite a lot of websites, so I'm hoping that one is. It's not quite the same as being a case study, but I just put it on LinkedIn and it's really interesting. You get a lot of wow 100 websites.
Josh Hall:That's huge. That's a great milestone, Marie. Congrats on that. When did you get started again? Was it 17?
Maria Brown:It's about 2017, yeah, end of 2017.
Josh Hall:That's awesome Congrats, because you're not doing like a productize where you're kicking sites out in one day. I mean, you're doing a lot of custom work and a lot of heart and soul in each one of these things.
Maria Brown:So yeah, most of them are fairly short websites. I mean, I don't do you know 20, 30 page websites? I've done one or two, but they're generally pretty short.
Josh Hall:Yeah Well, you're a total web presenter pro Marie. I just absolutely love seeing what you're up to, so keep on doing it. I'm excited to follow along and again, you'll just continue to be a great example. So thanks so much for sharing. Again, for round two, I'm already excited to see what we do for round two. Maybe round three will be when you're all in on LinkedIn and then you drop Instagram. We'll see.
Maria Brown:Yeah, maybe. Maybe you might have to wait a bit longer for that one.
Josh Hall:Deal. All right, marie. Thanks for your time. This is great. Thank you very much. All right, my friend. All right, my friend. Well, happy instagramming to you. If you are going to try out some of the strategies that marie and I covered, again, highly recommend checking her website out at beyondthekitchentablecouk. You can also, unshockingly, go check her out on instagram and I would highly recommend connecting with her there and see what she's up to she is at beyond the KT is her handle on Instagram. So go check that out and I do hope this helps you land some clients via Instagram if that's your jam. So leave us a comment. The show notes at this episode are going to be found at joshhallco slash 392. We'll have all the links and everything mentioned, so head over there. You can also drop us a comment. I'm sure Marie would love to see your thoughts on this one and your takeaways. So, joshhallco slash 392. And I can't wait to hear how this one helps you. Cheers, my friend.
