Web Design Business with Josh Hall
The Web Design Business Podcast with host Josh Hall is here to help you build a web design business that allows you to have freedom and a lifestyle you love. As a web designer and web agency owner of over a decade, Josh knows the challenges, struggles and often painful lessons of building a web design business without any guidance, proven strategies or a mentor to help you along the way, which is why this show exists. Think of this podcast as your weekly dose of coaching, mentorship and guidance to help you build your dream web design business. All while having a good time doing it. Through interviews with seasoned web design business professionals and online entrepreneurs, solo coaching episodes with Josh and even case studies with his students, you’ll learn practical tips and strategies for web business building along with real-world advice and trends that are happening right now in the wild and wonderful world of web design. Subscribe if you’re ready to start or level up your web design business and for all show notes, links, full transcriptions for each episode, head to https://joshhall.co/podcast
Web Design Business with Josh Hall
394 - The Self-Made Web Designer is Back with Chris Misterek
Great to have Chris “the self-made web designer” back on the podcast!
Aside from casual catch-up and web shop talk, we get into where the web industry is today compared to when we first entered the industry years ago.
Chris has a unique perspective as a freelance web designer who got most of his work through Upwork, and, with his work with ShowIt, sees a different part of the market than what I often do with WordPress.
Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/394
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client coming to you and saying I really want my site to be built on this and you being like well, I've never done that before, but let's try it. It's like it's going to take you so much time to learn the platform. Your profit margin is going to be abysmal. You know, like you kind of, you kind of need to put your stake in the ground for a period of time. You don't have to stay there forever if you don't like it, but you should at least to commit to a handful of projects before you say, okay, yes, this is what I want to do, or I don't want to do.
Josh Hall:Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Hello, my friend, it's so good to have you here and I am so excited to share with you my conversation with repeat guest friend of the show, chris Mistrick. He is the guy behind one of the best brand names in web design, the self-made web designer. Darn him for naming that so good. A little jealous, a little jealous. Great brand, great guy. And we are having just a very casual catch up in this one. But we do talk about some things that I think are really going to help you, whether you are in the beginning of your business or whether you're more advanced and established and want to get a feel for where things are in the view from the lens of two people who have been in the industry for a while, which Chris and I have. We're getting into everything from where the industry is today, with AI and everything else that's going on, what's different about getting started now versus when we got into the industry, and how more important than ever it is to stick to your tools and beware the shiny object syndrome. So, with all that as a primer. I'll leave it at that and I'm going to welcome in our good friend, chris Mystrick. Uh, he did have some technical issues.
Josh Hall:Heads up, if you watch this version on YouTube, you will see a camera change and either a freeze frame or a um a picture of Chris over that segment, depending on what me and my Nathan editor decided to do on that. So just a heads up on that. Go to the show notes of this episode, joshhallco, slash 394, for all the links we mentioned. And since you're on the podcast, be sure to go check out Chris's podcast Self-Made Web Designer. It's a good one. Here's Chris. Hello, banter, how long has it been for real, was it?
Chris Misterek:it's been a couple years, right, I think it was 2022 and so it's 2025 now, so maybe about three years or so, wow well, man, it's so good to see you again.
Josh Hall:Dude, how, how are things? I? It looked like life had taken a lot of different turns over the past few years since we chatted last.
Chris Misterek:Absolutely. Yeah, no, things are. Things are really good, man. I um still add show it, still doing web design stuff. Just recently started self-made web designer back up again and uh, yeah, other than that, I have a senior in high school which is nuts. I don't know how that's even possible, but here we are.
Josh Hall:Yeah, cause you're only 26.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, exactly yeah. So um had her when I was like 11, so all good.
Josh Hall:So wild man Gosh, chris, that's crazy. Well, I'm pumped to reconnect with you here. Man Just wanted to kind of get the lay of the land on where you're at. I mean, I just I have to say damn you, chris, for stealing the best freaking podcast name, like I remember when I saw your stuff I was like dang it. That is what I wanted to call my podcast that's so much better than mine, wow.
Chris Misterek:Thank you, man. It's such a good brand, I'm so glad you're back.
Josh Hall:man, the self-made web designer, is back.
Chris Misterek:Yeah yeah. It was quite a long hiatus I think it was two years in total, had a whole bunch of stuff happen and my family, my dad, passed away and just got kind of overwhelmed and burnt out and so just took some time off to kind of get healthy and emotionally, physically all that stuff focus on my family and then slowly but surely, like I, actually found a love for writing again.
Josh Hall:And you came back with your newsletter first right.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah. So I started writing and blogging and you know, like I was like, well, I'm, I'm doing this. I might as well, you know, make podcast scripts or the YouTube channel or whatever. And so, yeah, I just kind of slowly progressed into that. And then, um, started YouTube back up this year and then had a go, a couple of videos go off pretty well, and so now I'm just like, okay, well, how do we keep this going?
Josh Hall:I guess, yeah, cause you're such a video guy. I remember you know, really looking up to you with your video when we first got connected I was like man, it's obvious you had a background in video production and audio and sound and stuff I actually didn't know you were as heavy into or maybe, I don't know, was writing kind of secondary and then, like you said, was it just a chance to get into it? That was a little more low barrier, less production, less everything.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, I read a book from a gal named Anne Lamont called Bird by Bird, and it's a funny name, but she is essentially a writing teacher, so she teaches people how to write. She's done a few creative novels, but really the majority of her work has been around how to write. And it was just super inspiring and I was like you know what, I think I want to do this, and so just started sitting down at a computer and just found a knack for like busting out a thousand words in like 30 minutes, you know. And so I was like, well, I think I can do this like every day. And so then I just started doing that every day. It became a pattern and so, yeah, and so then that just kind of catapulted from there.
Josh Hall:Was. Was the initial writing for you? Was it more like journaling, especially since you had gone through so much in the period of a couple of years? Or was it intentional to like web designers, or how? How did the writing start?
Chris Misterek:Yeah, it was all about. It was all about web design, but my style is much more like okay, here's my story. And here's the thing that I learned through this story as it relates to web design, because what I do is show it is still web design stuff. I'm helping web designers that use our platform, and so it was just like, all right, well, I need to produce content for these guys, so I'm going to blog, I'm going to write a newsletter for them. And then I was like, well, I've, I've got more words that I could be writing, and so why don't I just do self-made web designer newsletter and then why don't I blog if I've got all these words that I'm writing every week, you know so, so, yeah, so it was kind of a progressive thing, but it was always, like you know, heavy web design stuff well, it's interesting because I remember, I think you, just because I was on your, I'm still am on your newsletter.
Josh Hall:I do know one thing about you, chris, is that I know when you email, it's going to be heartfelt, it's not going to be a rushed crap, like just stay on schedule type thing, which, yeah, is a good remind, like a good like, yeah, it's a good reminder that you like, uh, what's the right term?
Chris Misterek:care trumps consistency maybe I don't know.
Josh Hall:Like you know, I mean like I'd rather get less emails from you, but ones that are like he puts them hard into this. Sure, you know, as much as I stick on schedule with stuff, there's sometimes where I'm like maybe I want to start doing less just better.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, I, I appreciate that. Yeah, I, I intentionally try, you know like I don't like, because you could find web design advice from a number of people you know, like either of us. You could be getting solid web design advice to build a solid web design business or from chat gpt now yeah, 100, and there are.
Chris Misterek:There's more and more people because of these great tools that we have at our fingertips that are just creating tons of content. But you know nobody can steal your story. You know nobody can steal the part of your business that makes you uniquely you and so, like that's one of the core competencies that I think a lot of web designers miss out on is like they. They try to create an image of what they think their clients want and in doing so, they leave out a piece of themselves and therefore it takes out that real core competency and it pulls the heart out of their business competency and it pulls the heart out of their business.
Josh Hall:Did it make it easier to rebound from burnout and everything that you went through with just the idea that it is more of like a story based like heartfelt kind of thing, versus like, okay, here's my revenue target, here's my action plan? Did it make it easier to get back into it, knowing like you just share what you're thinking, what you're feeling?
Chris Misterek:Yeah, you know, it's always. It's always a moving landscape for me when it comes to, like, what are my goals with this thing? Cause I I have the luxury of having a really nice full-time job, you know, that pays my bills, and then some takes care of me and my family, um, and so there is a little bit of like, well, if I'm going to be spending extra time on this, it needs it needs to be justified by providing for my family. You know, um, at the same time, like, a lot of the reason why it was it was hard for me, you know, back when I first started, was because it did feel like such a content machine. You know, it's just like, got to turn it out, got to put it out there. You know what's going to get the most clicks, what's going to get the most reads, what's going to get the most views versus like, hey, let's just be a real person. You know, and then you know, whatever happens happens because I, you know, don't need this. You know, and it's a reminder that I keep having to bring up to myself because inevitably it's so easy.
Chris Misterek:You know, vanity metrics of, like, how many views am I getting, how many people are following me on social media when I think the more important thing and what I have to keep bringing myself back to is, like what's the end goal, like what's the real purpose of this? And my wife and I are always having this conversation and for me, at the end of it all is like I just want to help people. You know, like whatever that looks like like to be an encouragement to help you build your business, to know a little bit more about web design, and so if that's all the goal is then mission accomplished. You know what I mean. Like we've created, you know, like all this stuff that is super helpful and I've gotten feedback. You know like, hey, this has really helped me and so it's like okay. Like so that big purpose is now taken care of. Now I can just have fun. You know, now I can just figure out ways to be creative, express myself, help people maybe a little bit more.
Josh Hall:You know that's a really good point. I feel like if you, if you have a, if you don't have a measurable goal, there's no sense in looking at measurable results in the form of vanity metrics or sales, because that's not the goal. Now, if you actually get to the point where you have a goal or maybe there's parts of, maybe that's the broader mission, but then there's goals within the mission, that's when I feel like it's worthwhile doing that. But I do like that idea just because I feel like, yeah, for you, there's no sense of looking at vanity metrics or number of students or number of downloads when none of that is a goal, like you're just if you want to help people. So technically, one person, you've won. That's the success.
Chris Misterek:A hundred percent, yeah, and you know again, like it's, it's a moving target. It's super easy to get sucked into like feeling like you're not performing well enough or you're not as good as all the other people who are also doing the same thing, or whatever, when in reality it's like you kind of have to take a step back from that and say, okay, at the end of the day, if I look back 10 years from now and try to measure my success, it's probably not going to be from the amount of money I made. It's going to be from the amount of money I made. It's going to be on the impact that I had on somebody's life, you know, and so, um, so that's kind of the North star for me, and and it's and it's tough to do marketing for that, you know.
Chris Misterek:And and to be fair, like I'm a competitive person, Like I want to, I want to be the best in whatever the thing is that I'm doing. It's not like. It's like, well, we'll just put out whatever and see if, if, if, see if it lands somewhere. It's like no, I want to be intentional about what I'm doing. You know, I just don't want that to be an all consuming goal that takes up tons of my brain space.
Josh Hall:Well, I mean, I'm so glad you mentioned your full-time role with show it, because the reality is you do have constraints unless you want to work 90 hours a week.
Josh Hall:So I and I, my gosh man, I have found this to be more and more of not an issue but just a reminder to people who are building web design businesses on the side or, like I have a lot of web designer pro members who are mompreneurs and they're balancing having young kids or even teenagers, and they just they can only work about 15 or 20 hours a week. And I just, at this time of recording this, just did a mid-year check-in with everybody and it's interesting how many conversations I've had with folks who are in a part-time position, like you are, with their web design business. But it's really easy to judge their success off of people who are beyond full-time in their roles and you just cannot, you just can't do it Like. I love this reminder that if you're working 15 or 20 hours a week and you're making 50 or 60 grand and that's fine for you and your family, you've won, like you don't need to.
Josh Hall:I mean, if you want to go to six figures, awesome, we can get there without going too much more than you know you could probably get there with a few tweaks without working more, but you don't need to if you don't need to, so yeah, I just I think, now more than ever, I think that's, uh, it's worth like banging that drum. Uh, that you yeah, there's no sense of like stacking ourself and comparing ourselves and people who are in literal different positions and have different variables and have different working hours. And yeah, like I know I have to personally be careful about looking at like other influencers and folks who are, who don't have families, and it's like, well, yeah, you can travel a lot and do a lot of speaking and conferences and crank out more content, because you don't have any kids to worry about taking up your time, you know.
Chris Misterek:And I don't mean like that, but I just mean, yeah, you know what I mean. Comparison is a dangerous game. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. Comparison is a dangerous game. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's kind of two sided, you know, like you don't. You don't want to stick your head in the sand, um, at the same time, you don't want to use false measurement criteria, you know, like. So, like you know, I tell you Roosevelt, god bless him, comparison is the thief of joy. I think comparison helps. You know when you should audition for American Idol and when you shouldn't.
Chris Misterek:And some people don't have that tool, like they're just like no, I'm the, I'm the best there is. Like, actually, you shouldn't even be on the stage. But at the same time, like you know you, you have to compare the right things to the right things, and the best thing to compare is yourself now versus a year ago. And so if you can look back and say, like I did X projects, I made X amount of money, then like, there's probably something, there's something to celebrate in that you know. And so, learning, learning what the wins are, and and I even have to, like you know, have a list of like, like here, here are some wins that like, even though they're not the big things you know like, maybe it's not I made a hundred thousand dollars, maybe a client said they had one of the best experiences working with a web designer when they worked with me.
Chris Misterek:Um, you know, for for me it's the comments I get on my videos, where, even if the video only gets, you know, a certain amount of views, somebody says, hey, I was about to give up, but this video just gave me a lot of ideas to keep going. It's like that's gold to me. That is, that is a measurement of like. The more I hear that, the more I'm like I am on the right track.
Josh Hall:So when to compare, that's a good, it's a good topic. Like you, compare yourself to your former self, your progress, absolutely, I do think it's worthwhile. Comparing is in more of like market research for positioning competition. If somebody wants to teach web designers, it would be worthwhile comparing your you know your skill sets and where you are compared to me and compared to you and compared to agency Mavericks, compared to all the other folks who are teaching web designers in some capacity.
Chris Misterek:So there I I agree there's like there is a time to compare, but I think it's um, I think it's really important not to like almost judge yourself in comparison, especially when there's a very, very different set of circumstances time goals, 100, etc yeah, and I think too, it it comes down to the comparison is not an evaluation of your worth as a person, and so, like, that's where it starts to get really tough when you're like this person is better than me, so I must be, I must be a worse person. You know, um, or I'm not as valued, or maybe I'm not as spectacular, right, like that's. That's where you can get, you know, really really burnt out from you know this person is better. Therefore, I am a worse human being, you know, like, but if you, just if you kind of have to put your thinker hat on and and and put your feelings to the side and say, no, this, these, these are just data points that's going to help me make a decision about where to focus my skills next, and so some of the things.
Chris Misterek:It's like you know. Like you know, especially for me, when I was thinking about the early days of starting courses, I looked at all your courses. Like Josh has all these courses and they're fantastic. He's not talking about Upwork. I have a particular expertise in the field of Upwork and so that's the course that I'm going to make you know, because I have something that's pretty unique to talk about it specifically to web designers, so that kind of helps you figure out like what's my secret sauce or the value proposition, my onlyness that I can say? Only I have this ability or experience, expertise, whatever you want to call it, and so this makes me a much better fit for these types of people.
Josh Hall:Such a good point, especially, I think, for web designers who are focused on local, whether it's local SEO or their local market. It's very, very worthwhile taking this approach of like looking at your competition and viewing them as number one coopetition, like we can be friends. We don't need to be enemies, I don't need to steal clients from you and vice versa. But then, like you said, what is what's different about you? And this is where I see a lot of designers look around at other designers and then all of a sudden, they're like oh my God, I'm not near as good as this person, whether they're local or global, whatever it really like, it is worthwhile. Even though you may have overlap in services and stuff like that, there's always a unique selling proposition. There's always something unique about you and it may be a personal thing, maybe, just maybe some clients just want to work with you because you're you and you have the exact same services as this big agency in town, but they're not you.
Josh Hall:Going back to your story, your story attracts, if there's anything that attracts your tribe your vibe attracts your tribe. It's a story, it's how you present yourself. I just had a call with one of my pro members, whitney, who has a podcast herself and she's very established. And I asked her point blank what was it about me that attracted you versus going to Agency Mavericks or somebody else? And she said it're just your style, like. You just seem like a stable, balanced entrepreneur and she wanted a little more of like. She didn't want to hustle, she wanted more of that. So I'm I realized like, yeah, I mean I have the best in certain areas, but yeah, it's like your, your vibe truly does attract your tribe. I saw you went side camera.
Chris Misterek:I know it's my computer. It's not letting me switch in between, so let me see oh, that's all right.
Josh Hall:Yeah, sometimes a Riverside. I guess it's like every streaming platform. Sometimes it goes well, but hey, you look fine.
Chris Misterek:We can see your stash.
Josh Hall:That's the most important yeah, yeah, well, but hey, you look fine.
Chris Misterek:Fine to me, we can see your stash. That's the most important.
Josh Hall:Yeah, yeah, okay, cool yeah, I was joking before we hit record, like if something happens you will make a hell of a cop. Just keep the stash ready.
Chris Misterek:Plan B yeah, I, I, I fear I would be like, you know, too lenient, you know, pull people over cause they're speeding. You know I'm like, ah, you know, it's fine, We'll, we'll figure it out.
Josh Hall:Just don't. Don't do it again. You would be the worst cop, Chris, Cause you'd be like I just want to help you.
Chris Misterek:I don't want to give you a ticket.
Josh Hall:They'd be like Chris literally he was going 95 and a 35. You have to give a ticket.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, you know in in talking about like competition. So what I do for show it is I actually help our designers that use the show at platform. So we've got a really big circle community. We also have a core group of designers we call the design partners. So there are people who have been vetted by us. They've been through the process of taking some of our courses. We've gotten client feedback about them, and so we actually take them on retreats a few times a year up to a cabin that the CEO owns. I'm actually there right now.
Josh Hall:So I'm going to say it looked like you were in like a lake house or something.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, so and they just get together and they just share and they're like hey, here's where it's working well for me, or just what's maybe a little bit too difficult. Right now we do some workshops on like show it stuff. I'll do a presentation, the CEO does a presentation, but it's amazing to see the people who come, who kind of hold things close to their chest. You know they're like I don't want to give away my secrets because we're all trying to get the same clients, but by the end of the week it's just like they're the most open people you know, because they've seen the value of sharing and being honest and being open.
Chris Misterek:And this is what's working for me and you know, like there's just there's so much more to it than just the way the websites look that you built or there's so much opportunity. You know, with however many billions of people in the world there's, there's always going to be a need for a good web designer. You know, despite what people are saying, with AI and everything else that's happening and it's certainly something to consider and think about and try to try to figure out again how you are going to stand out, but at the same time, it's like man, there's just so much business opportunity and so many people who need unique things that there will never be a point where it's like, well, all the web designers that are needed are being used by projects, and so you know, good luck everybody else.
Josh Hall:Yeah, every single business owner and DIYer has you know. They can build their own website now for sure, and they don't need any help with their copy or messaging. They're going to understand SEO with a you know, chat, gpt prompt. They know, you know user experience and they can figure that out on their own. Now. Business owners don't need that. They don't need to figure out. Email is involved with domains and websites and, um, yeah, they've got it all. Yeah, there's no need for us. Yeah, yeah, I don't see that happening ever. Uh yeah I love.
Josh Hall:I love that you're bringing this up, chris, just because, like, I feel like we're our own worst enemy as creatives, especially with scarcity mindsets, and I understand these are interesting times economically and everything else has, like I mean there may be different worst enemy as creatives, especially with scarcity mindsets, and I understand these are interesting times economically and everything else has like I mean, there may be different fluctuations of that, but that is always the case. But the reality is, like I've just gone back this over and over most web designers don't need more than 25 to 50 clients to build a healthy big business, especially depending on your price points. How many businesses in the world are the million, like hundreds of millions, business owners and people launching new businesses all the time? There is a scarcity of web designers, quite honestly, especially web designers who are not just pixel pushers, like folks who are like really in and we take it a level back and say, like web designers who actually care and give a crap. That's really.
Josh Hall:I've banged on that drum for years because that's how I got started. Not having any expertise and very good design skills, quite honestly, is I really did care and clients can sense that. So, going back to those intangibles. I feel like it's worthwhile really for everyone sitting down and thinking about your intangibles Like where's my level of care? Where's my passions in this work? What do I do that I enjoy? What do I do that I want to help others with? What type of people do I like helping with? And my gosh, that could take you so far. There's just, there's no need for a scarcity mindset. Now more than ever, yeah, yeah. I think the folks who have the opposite of that are the ones who are going to go really far, really fast.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah, you know it's interesting. Um, I actually, uh, probably last fall, got a fairly big client for myself, um, and it came down that it was between me and this like bigger agency, and so the client was talking with them and he sent me the agency's proposal and was like hey, can you look at this and just tell me how you would be different? And like if you would be able to deliver some of the things that that they're talking about? And so, as I was looking at their proposal, I was like I feel like this is everything that I have said that I'm going to be doing for them.
Chris Misterek:So what was the disconnect? Like? Why did he feel like their proposal was so much stronger than mine that he would say, hey, can you level up to this, you know? And so I realized it was the way that they were communicating about what they were delivering, and so we were both going to deliver probably close to the same level of quality of product, you know. And we both showed like, here's our background, here's the stuff that I have done. It was pretty similar, you know, like there wasn't anything that's like oh, this is drastically better than mine, but the difference that he felt was the way that they were presenting and communicating, and so that's when I realized, like, all right, I need to figure out how to communicate in such a way that you know a client is going to feel more secure in saying yes to me, and that's that intangible that that you're talking about, and that's, I think, that the more AI becomes prevalent in the work that we do, the thing that's going to help you stand out more like. People are going to want the human connection. They're going to want the, the interaction that you wouldn't be able to get from a computer.
Josh Hall:Was that in the case of that agency proposal and the way they were communicating? Was it specifically a level of personalization and like one-on-one contact with you? If you could drill down to exactly what the difference was in communication, what do you think that was?
Chris Misterek:Yeah. So some of it was. They had like a slide deck presentation that they were kind of mapping out Like here's some past examples, here's our framework. So they went really into the details of their process and I had kind of touched on that in my calls with him, but there was never a point where I was like all right, let's look at this together here's A, B, C, D and this is exactly the path that I'm going to take you on to ensure success, and here's the things that we're going to avoid so we don't get in any pitfalls. And so I had that. I just didn't have a systematized way of communicating that, and so it didn't feel like I'd put too much um of the onus on the potential client to like figure that out, as I'm just kind of spit balling on a zoom call, you know. And so, um, yeah, that was probably the biggest thing was just how it was presented and communicated.
Josh Hall:And so they went. Did you go forward with you or the agency? I'm sorry, Did I miss that he?
Chris Misterek:ended up going forward with me. Uh it price point, uh, you know, because I I bet I was less than half of what they were asking for. Um, but it was still like a really sizable project for me. I just don't have agency overhead that they did gotcha.
Josh Hall:Yeah, I was wondering like, yeah, what was the what? Yeah, was it a level of personalization? I'm sure that helped too. Though, like I don't know, would the agency have looked over, reviewed your proposal and really gave it, given a, like you know, personalized, one-on-one response? I don't know, probably not. I I would guess, like maybe they would say they reviewed it.
Josh Hall:But you know, if that's a perfect example of like I mean, yes, you were lower in price and and yes, there were deliverables that didn't require the extra overhead and everything that agency, it's a problem with agencies and, by the way, the hard part for agencies, they're competing with folks who, if you can get stuff done with one or a very lean team which is what I teach on then yeah, why wouldn't you do that? And there's going to be more personalization and you're not going to be just a number on a spreadsheet and you don't need to pay for their. You know, big holiday parties, that's. You know that's very, that's a, that's a unique selling position for all freelancers and solopreneurs and small teams too. Yeah, so yeah.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, and I think to you know, there, there, there are clients. So I have had clients who've said, you know, like, hey, we're also talking to an agency and they're going to give us a project manager, they're going to give us a designer, they're going to give us a developer, and it's just you. So how are you going to make up for all those differences? And so you know, like some people, especially bigger businesses, um, it's they have more money than they have resources and time, and so they'd rather spend more money to know that they don't have to have their hands as much in the project. But for a lot of people it's, like you know, a website might be one of the. You know like 30, 40 grand on a new, really simple website, which is what most agencies are going to ask for, just to have the conversation.
Josh Hall:Yeah Well, I'll tell you my fix for that, which is have a team page that has collaborators and they don't need to need to subcontract with you often. I mean, it's one thing I tell my Web Designer Pro members I'm like you automatically have a team when you join Web Designer Pro, because it could literally just be you you could have never hired anyone else to help you and you can say if we have a really big project that we need other hands on, that go far into DNS or far into e-commerce or far into memberships or whatever it is. I'm a part of the community and it's a team of collaborators who can step in with needed. That's the quick solution for that that I found. And then, once you do have a few contractors that you work with occasionally, then they're on your team page and you just put collaborates frequently or how often they help. But yeah, it's funny because the same thing I did in 2011 works today probably even better and that is to put your sweet spot on your website.
Josh Hall:Um, I, I literally created a graphic that still works today, and it's this little graphic that says I'm not a stressed out freelancer who does everything him or herself and can't answer an email within three days, but I'm not an agency where you're going to be treated like a number. I'm right in the middle me, and then you other folks who work with me, or I have a team of collaborators, and that's still such a wonderful sweet spot that so many businesses want. It's a great point, though, chris, because there are times where you're like, yeah, look, you need an agency, you need full-blown, they're going to be really heavily involved in your business, unless I'm going to work part-time for you. You need, you know, departments of people to help you, but most freelancers aren't getting too many leads that are that robust, at least from my experience.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, and that's that's been my experience as well, and there's there's a lot of opportunity in that space. You know, um, you know not to say that it's if you want to scale up to the agency level, that it's not worth the idea of the conversation, um, because that certainly is a place to be. You know, like sometimes agencies are able to put out better work because they have people who are really specified in their skill, you know. So they have a brand designer, they have a motion designer, they have somebody who's doing things for UI and UX, like they've got all these individual parts. But you know, that's that's for a level that it's like you're you're really trying to eke out just maybe 3% more value from this new thing. Like it doesn't need to drastically overhaul, it doesn't need to make a huge impact, it just needs to add maybe a few dollar signs to their budget.
Josh Hall:How many cause you're, a you know self-made words on a brand you're. I know you're a freedom based, you know heartfelt business kind of guy Like. How many happy agency owners do you think you've met who have like a ton of departments and are truly like happy? Yeah, I don't a couple. But they've been much more owner focused from the get go and they like pretty intentionally or at least they were at a point in their journey when they started an agency where they knew how to build a team and knew what worked for them.
Josh Hall:Really good example is a site called Studio One Design. I had their owner on there from Australia and he's one of the very few true agency owners that is balanced and still loves what he does. But I haven't met many. They're mostly especially now in 2025, we're seeing the remnants of burned out agency owners and man, the agency life is a brutal, hard life because, yes, you may have marketing departments of folks, but I've seen it firsthand the amount of churn that agencies deal with and a client may get a marketing head director, they may get a developer, they may get a designer and they may get a production assistant, but they may get like two or three new production assistants during their contract with them because they're turning people out so bad. So I'm all.
Chris Misterek:I'm just saying I wouldn't envy the agency world at all right now, for sure, for sure, yeah, um so a friend of mine, mike Janda, you know he talks about how familiar with him yeah.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, he, he's talked about, um, like when he was running an agency, he had to have a like a Google sheet that listed out how long they could run, even if they didn't get another job starting today.
Chris Misterek:Just because it was so stressful, it was like there's so many things that could go wrong, there's so many things that could happen, and so in order to sleep at night, he had to know okay, we've got six months of runway before we really need to start worrying, or we've got a year of runway before we really need to start worrying, and so there's, there's a way to mitigate that, there's a way to do it well. But I know that people that work for agencies, typically it's like it's younger folks who don't have a lot of other responsibilities outside of their job, and so they don't need a lot of money and they can work, and it's always kind of talked about as a stepping stone. You know, like I got a lot of experience. I, you know, built my chops through doing agency work and then I went out and did it myself, so so I would agree it's it's a tough. It's a tough world to play in. You know. Of course there are folks who are doing it well, but it's going to have its own unique set of challenges.
Josh Hall:Well, and even the folks who are doing it well. I wonder, this is where the idea of like, comparing yourself to them, man, did. I experience this when I started you know, becoming successful as a freelancer, I looked at some agencies in town. I felt so envious that they had a cool office downtown and, like, man, should I do that? And what I've realized is, like the true mission of what you want to do in your work that trumps everything. Because, like I, just I didn't want to drive every day downtown and deal with traffic. I wanted to work from home, I didn't want the overhead, and they just had different missions and different levels of experience behind them and I think a lot of agency owners probably I would say I would bet that a lot of them view their agency in creating something that's sellable or something that's an exit.
Josh Hall:I had a conversation back on the podcast not too long ago with Matt Gartland, who was the CEO of Smart Passive Income, with Pat Flynn, and he said when you start your business, you have to ask yourself are you creating a job, a business or an exit? And I really love that frame because it does put everything into perspective, like there's nothing wrong with creating a freelance job for yourself. If that's what you want to do at least, even if it's, you know, for a while, that's fine. Creating a business is very different than creating a freelancing job for yourself, and creating something that's going to be sellable by a certain time is very different than just creating a business. So yeah, I don't know. I just think that's really important, because most agency owners are probably creating a business and an exit.
Chris Misterek:No, no agent.
Josh Hall:Owner is like I want to create a job for myself where I have to oversee 30 people and have to work 90 hours a week, and I'm just going to love all these team meeting calls. I'm going to love hiring and firing. It's just going to be great. No, they're doing it because they want to build a business that they probably want to exit from in a certain amount of time without dying before they do it.
Chris Misterek:It's funny. I just did a workshop with a couple of designers in Showit about using white label designers. So there's the business owner who has a business. She probably works about 15 to 20 hours a week. Her other job is to be a stay-at-home mom and so she does homeschooling with her kids is by hiring people who are on her team, but they're not necessarily only working for her. And so you know it's another opportunity where it's like you could actually scale. You know like you could take on more work if you had a few collaborators like you've talked about, or folks who it's like you've taken them through your processes. Obviously there's onboarding. There's a little bit of like working out the details of how the relationship is going to work and how you like to run your systems, um. But you know there's so much opportunity out there because there are folks who they'd rather not be face to face with the client. They just want to do the work and they're willing to take less money because they're they realize they're not going out there and getting the business.
Josh Hall:Yeah, it's a great point. I think it actually I think it leads to this like pulling the curtain back on the challenges of being an agency owner is, I think, where people get really scared to scale. The last course that I released last year was called Scale your Way and it's been really interesting to see people the results they're getting from that course. But mostly the results have been a mindset shift in being confident and comfortable to scale but not be a stressed out agency, because there really are a lot of ways to go about it, and that's one for sure just having contractors and white labelers and not the stress of a full-time W2 employee or multiple. There's also, I think, a self-awareness thing, like you mentioned there, chris, which is know what you want to do.
Josh Hall:If you really hate development and troubleshooting, you can hire that out from day one.
Josh Hall:Even if you're working part-time, you can absolutely get help with that. You can focus on the creative parts and the selling and the client communication, or vice versa. Maybe you really like having hands in the coding and you really enjoy that aspect of things, but you dread going to a networking group. There's a lot of different ways to be able to get help on the sales part, or partnering with people as a white label person to do the development and the design that a lot of people like myself don't really want to do. So I think that's the cool thing about the world of freelance solopreneurship and I'll call it studio versus agency world is there's just a lot more flexibility. And I don't want to derail anyone or speak badly about agencies as a whole, like they're really some people like it, but I think most maybe just because we're in the freelance world primarily and do you see that too, where people are afraid to become an agency, they're like I don't want to scale, it just sounds horrible and so stressful.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, you know, I, I think I see a lot of people who have tried dipping their toes into it and then it didn't go well right off the bat and so they just kind of, you know, scurried back to what felt safe and so, kind of, you know, scurried back to what felt safe. And so, because it is a different part of your brain that you're teaching a new skill, you know, it's not the web design, it's not the getting a client, it's no. Now you're overseeing people, you're learning how to communicate your leadership.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah, all of those things you know, you're you're translating from the business owner to the person who's working on the project Like a lot of times that those skills are something it's like we feel like we should just be good at from the very beginning.
Chris Misterek:But it actually takes a lot of development and you're not just going to be good at it right off the bat. So you've got to, you've got to give yourself some runway and you've got to say, like I'm going to, I'm going to try this for X number of times before I say this isn't the right season for me. You know so, like I was working, uh, with a video editor for some of my YouTube stuff and he was just like hey, listen, like, in order for us to know if this is going to work out, we really need to do like three videos together and I was like, oh, okay, yeah, that makes, that makes sense. You know, like, like we number one, it gets you more business and so that's kind of helpful for you. But number two, like, yeah, the first one's going to be kind of rough. You know, like you're learning how you're communicating, you're learning what gets missed or what needs to have some directed attention towards and so like. But the more reps you get into those things, the easier it's going to be every single time.
Josh Hall:That's a great point, and one thing that I teach in my course scale your way and also have learned is when you dip your toe into scaling. And by scaling I just mean like getting help to start. In most cases, web designers are just buried and they're like I can't. I literally can't do all this. I need to get help at some, some capacity, make it low risk and low pressure to start. Like, don't just hire somebody you meet on, we'll just say Upwork for now as a designer, and then say hey, here's a 20 page website, here's our strategy call with the client.
Chris Misterek:You know, here's our portfolio.
Josh Hall:Good luck. 99.9%. That's not going to go well. But if you give them like a page or or a couple pages to build out based off of what you're doing, then you it's a very low risk, low pressure kind of approach.
Josh Hall:One thing that I learned with Jonathan, who was my lead designer for a long time, was we started like that I gave him like a section. Well, first I gave him like a part of a footer to work on. He did great on that. I gave him a section to work on, then gave him a page to work on, then gave him multiple pages to work on, and then I felt comfortable like, okay, he can absolutely build a whole site. And I was still doing strategy, initial calls and overall creative director type stuff. But then we got to the point where, like, he became better than I was at designing, so I felt comfortable with just getting the project kicked off and then it turned over to him and it was literally and then eventually he got involved with client communication and that's how we rolled. So all that to say like start off, low risk, low pressure. Don't yeah, Don't put yourself in a position to blow up your business the first time you get a little bit of help.
Josh Hall:Yeah, it'll be a lot better experience and that way, if it goes bad, it's like okay, that page is terrible, let's try one more. Yeah, I'm not a good fit. I think we can. Yeah, we're just not a good fit.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah so video guy I'm.
Josh Hall:You know that was probably a good, like you know, if you did three and it's like, okay, we didn't get it after three, no harm. Yeah, you know not a good fit.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, and the, the, the two designers that um did the workshop yesterday with me. One was the business owner and one was the white label designer. Um, they, they, uh say just do a paid test project, you know, where it's not even client facing, where you know you're not asking for free work to be done, but like, hey, you know, build me a hero section and here's the brief, you know, and then I'll give you $500. I just want to see what you're going to come up with, just to see what your style is. You know, um, like that can be another opportunity. And another one of their tips was like don't try to do it when you're busy, like it's actually the worst time to do it when you feel slammed, because not only do you have to finish the project but you also have to teach somebody how to help you finish the project.
Josh Hall:So it's like it's kind of the worst moment.
Josh Hall:Yeah, that was. I will say I got through it because I I've notoriously publicly said I had 23 projects and I was like, oh my God, I literally can't do it on my own anymore. I didn't have a choice. I had to like jack up my rates or scale in some capacity. And I did make it through it. But yeah, man, do I wish I would have like have like you know, like just transparently. I wish I would have gone through my course to be prepared to scale before you even think you're ready to scale.
Josh Hall:At least you know that way. When you get to that point, you know like okay, let me create an org chart. Most design I bet most web designers don't have an org chart. So right now, visualize an org chart. Or just google org chart or chat, gpt and org chart. There's a ceo, there's a creative director, there's a salesperson, there's marketing, content creation. There's a designer, there's developer, there's tech support, there's ongoing admin like your face is in all of those spots right now. So as soon as you get to the point where you're somewhat busy, I would start to chip away at what you don't want to do.
Josh Hall:Yeah, yeah, yeah, isn't that awesome Like this is so cool about this industry is we really do. I don't know of another industry where you can have so much freedom outside of just your work time and stuff. But, like in your business, you have the freedom Like most. I don't know Most people who get into like loans probably don't have that much flexibility with their work in loans Like you probably have like stuff you got to follow all the time. But we can do whatever one of those roles we want to as our main role.
Chris Misterek:Yeah for sure, and there's so many new, different things to learn as you go to you Like that's, that's honestly one of the reasons why I love web design. It's like, well, you know, like web design in general is such a big idea. You know, it's not just web development, it's not just UX UI, like no, this is we're. We're building things for the web. Well, what well, it could be an app. Uh, it could be a website. Um, that could mean that you're a part of the development process. That could mean that you're a part of the design process. That mean you're a part of all of those things. You could be doing SEO, you could be doing strategy, and and so you know as much as you know, I get kicked back every once in a while and some of my content, like you know, web designers aren't web developers and vice versa. It's like, ah, I mean you might have to be fairly soon. You know, like there's a day coming where a generous is probably going to be more in demand than somebody who's really specific.
Josh Hall:That's interesting. I really thought about it like that. I mean I I've definitely seen for my members in my little sphere and web designer pro, my members in my little sphere and Web Designer Pro a lot of the folks who are at a like six and multi six figure level either have just a lot of maintenance plans and have scaled up some sort of MRR or their services or a higher price point, or they are doing things like strategy and consultative services. They don't even necessarily need to be a digital marketing agency, but they're definitely positioned now more as a trusted web guide, like a webmaster, versus just somebody who's taking orders and making the logo bigger. That is what I recommend folks get to. Even if they're fairly new, you could still become a bit of a strategist and kind of a consultant. I mean, honestly, most web designers, all web designers, are doing some level of strategy and consultative services from day one, so you might as well position yourself like that.
Josh Hall:I still like saying a web designer, because if you say you're a web designer, you will get clients. If you go to a networking group and do it consistently, you will get clients. If you go to a networking group and do it consistently, you will get clients promise guaranteed, a hundred percent guaranteed. It's just it opens doors. But that next level back I've, I've learned and I think now like to your point. I think now is that point where businesses do just want somebody who knows what the heck's going on on the web. So I agree, yeah.
Josh Hall:You don't do everything, but you know, if you know your lanes and can do a few things, well, particularly if it's just on the website, that's where the gold is.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah, nielsen put out an article just recently that talked about, like, the era of specialization being almost over, especially with the introduction of AI. You know, it's just so much easier to know a lot of things about a lot of things, and so, like we have to be ready to say like all right, what's, what's the new skill that I can learn or add to the repertoire? And, like you're talking about the, the people who are making, you know, multiple six figures. They're hardly ever just designing the pages, you know, unless they're just some kind of crazy good designer, which I've not even really seen somebody that is at that level who's just designing, you know.
Josh Hall:Yeah, I think the case for that would be if they're working with brands that are making so much online that literally, a call to action tweak may be worth tens of thousands or hundreds or millions of dollars.
Josh Hall:I think that's where, like you know, some of the top level design design folks get to, but I mean those are few and far between. It is interesting, your, your, your pushback towards the idea of a specialist, because I've heard so much of the opposite in that, like folks are saying, drill down into a specialty, go niche, and it definitely makes things more referable when it's like, yes, this person does this. But even the folks I think of, who I'm utilizing and referring people to, they do a few different things. They may have a lead specialty, but it's not their only specialty, so that I agree on for sure where it's like you got a few bags of specialty, but it's not their only specialty, so that I agree on for sure where it's like you know, you got a few bags of tricks but you've got made one that may be the primary lead source, but then when they use you for that, the work doesn't stop, you say, oh shoot, you do this too and you do this. Interesting, awesome.
Chris Misterek:Yeah yeah, you know, contrary to popular advice, I have never really niched down and some of that is my brain, Like I. Just I have a hard time like really going deep for a very long time, Like I are you afraid of getting bored?
Chris Misterek:A hundred percent, and so I just know a lot of things about a lot of things. And so it's like you know, like I'm, I'm okay, going like all right, a lot of things. And so it's like you know, like I'm, I'm okay, going like all right, for six months let's really get into SEO, and then for another six months let's learn machine learning, because that sounds like something that is probably going to be important within this next decade, you know. And so I've never had issues like could I be making more money? Maybe you know, but maybe I'd be making less if I didn't necessarily niche down into what I'm doing. So I think, I think the road that I've taken might take a little bit longer to to get up there. You know, like, if you want, to go designer yeah, a hundred percent, like if.
Chris Misterek:if you want to make a lot of money really quickly, yes, pick a niche, go hard into it and then you'll get there. But if you're thinking about longevity over the long haul, like not necessarily niching down is maybe a good option for you.
Josh Hall:I think it goes all goes back to what you want and I with a with niche. It's funny, it really is 50, 50. It can, yeah, it can, absolutely work and you can do it at scale and you it could be an easier sell because you know the clients, you know your target market, you know the messaging and everything. But you can also run into the risk that I've seen for people who want to go niche where, unless you're like so certain about who you want to serve, that is an unnecessary challenge you put on yourself. You absolutely can be a generalist. I was, you are.
Josh Hall:So many of our Pro members I oversee are and a lot of them are very happy to just work with different types of businesses. You can always go like hybrid niche to where you have maybe it's not like just chiropractors, but you serve healthcare or wellness. Wellness is what wellness means. You got yoga instructors, dietitians, nutritionists. You know you don't have to go like hyper, hyper niche and I I do. I love that.
Josh Hall:You said that, chris, just cause that is something that I'm like I'm trying to help people or they're like I got to pick a niche. I'm like, no, you, no, you don't. If you don't know your niche. Don't pick a niche yet, just do web design. I promise eventually you'll get to the point where, like, okay, I like these types of people, but yeah, there's no pressure to niche, niche, niche, however you say it. Yeah, no, I like that, it's true and to your like, to your situation, you're balancing full-time work for show it your freelance stuff and your your teaching. You know your your passion stuff and your your teaching you know your your passion stuff through side or side I was going to say side made web designer.
Josh Hall:That actually may be your true brand, but you are this self-made web designer, but you know you're, you've got three different income streams technically. So yeah, yeah, there's like, there's no, there's no reason to put added pressure on yourself. I feel like when somebody has that kind of thing going on.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, and eventually, especially when I was first getting started, I just happened to be doing a lot of websites for people who were in personal training, and so it was like, okay, I could easily take this and say I've done like four or five websites for personal trainers. That's enough of a portfolio that I could say I am the web designer for personal trainers. You know, um, I didn't end up going that route because it's like this is not really a niche I want to stay in. You know, like I like being able to help the personal trainer and the investment firm, you know, and so, um, but it you'll eventually start to see patterns in the types of clients that you're getting. You'll see patterns in the type of stuff you like doing. Um, and a mix of that is a good opportunity. Like, if you could say like, hey, yeah, like I could see myself helping doing this type of website over and over again for the next however long, then maybe that's a good option. I could just never see myself doing that.
Josh Hall:That and then also, if you really commit to going niche and you're not 100% sure you're going to enjoy it or it's going to work, then a year or two in, if you're going to pivot in a lot of ways, you don't need to completely start over, but you do need to redesign your website.
Josh Hall:Your current portfolio is not going to be the best example of who you want to serve now, so you really have to expand your network in a whole different way. You got to have different marketing strategies. Pivoting a niche is a whole other challenge and that's something I really talked about. But I have seen to where it's like challenge and that's something I really talked about, but I have seen to where it's like I feel bad, but it's like your current roster and client list and network is almost I don't want to say useless, but it's. It's not not what you need to move forward. It's like what got you here and they're going to get you there. And now you got to really start over again. If you commit to a niche that you're not truly going to serve for the long haul, yeah, absolutely, and I do know people who have done that successfully.
Chris Misterek:There's actually a show at designer who, um, she burned her portfolio, you know, so to speak, and took all of the websites that she had done off of her you know case studies section and then just made um like ideas out of thin air and made, you know, test projects for her own concepts and that's what she ended up showing on her website and that actually turned her business around. So it's not that it's impossible, it's just like it's better to have that conversation with yourself earlier in your business than it is to be two or three years in and be like okay.
Josh Hall:I don't like anything that I'm doing. Yeah, and the folks who I've seen, who go niche really well, generally come from that industry, like Jason Gracia who has a site called Swift Sites super productized, probably one of the best examples of super well. He's not even super niche because he serves coaches in different variety of coaching industries, but he came from that world of motivation and coaching and he just knows those people really well, knows what they need, but it's broad enough to where it's not just fitness coaches, every site. And another pro member, kristen, who was recently on the podcast. She comes from the speaking world and she just knows speakers and they are coaches too actually a lot of them and she loves serving them and she's even trained like her custom chat GPT to like she's a custom GPT about speaking websites and different content and she loves it because she knows that industry, she loves the industry, she's a speaker herself. So I feel like that's when, when it's oh so clear of what you know, who you like to work with, that's the time to go niche.
Josh Hall:But yeah, I just I just wonder like it just it pains me to see people like hang up their business or get delayed in starting or have so much struggles or unnecessarily unnecessary challenges when they're like I gotta go niche, I gotta find my niece. I just don't agree. I totally agree, man. It's just like just do webs, enjoy web design first and figure out what you want to do within web design. These can come later.
Chris Misterek:A hundred percent. Yeah, I think that's solid advice.
Josh Hall:The show it. Uh, it's interesting. We are in a very, very, very interesting time with website builders. Wordpress has a lot of drama going on around it. Um, I mean, truly page builders are what's carrying wordpress and the community behind it. But wix studio is gaining momentum. There's show it, there's squarespace, which is still hanging on really strong. There's so many other platforms. I'm just kind of curious, like what type of people are you seeing in ShowIt land? My VA Jen actually uses ShowIt, yeah, and I know people who use it really like it, just like, I guess, with any platform. But are you seeing agency owners with ShowIt? Is it freelancers? Is it more female driven than male driven?
Chris Misterek:What are you seeing in show at land. Yeah, it's uh, all of the above, um and like. We have design partners who have full fledged agencies. Um, we have site shops that are, you know, doing millions of dollars just based on templates. Um, you know. So there's, there's opportunity.
Chris Misterek:No matter what kind of web design business you're you're wanting to build, I would say, like, the thing that separates us from, um, a lot of other website builders is, like, what you see within the show at website builder is what it's going to look like on the webpage.
Chris Misterek:You know, and it's it's much easier to move a, an image, three and a half pixels over to the right than it would be on a lot of other website builders. You know, so like, of course, all of them have their positives and negatives, you know, um, and there are some great ones out there and, and honestly, like, I would never tell somebody like, show, it is the best and the only. It's like, you know, like, no, like, if you want full creative freedom with a website like show, it is the platform for you. Yeah, cause our mission is to cultivate the creativity that exists in every individual, um and so like, we are wanting to give you a tool to be more creative with how you're putting yourself online, um and so like. We are wanting to give you a tool to be more creative with how you're putting yourself online, um. So, as we're Squarespace it, you'd be able to get something up really quickly, but it's going to be tough making tweaks outside of the ability that they've given you. You know like they have.
Josh Hall:I have heard that show. That seems to be a bit of a bridge in between, like something like a squarespace and but not as like robust, as like a crm like wordpress or something that is open source and you know you can get very, very advanced into well and I would say yeah, we integrate with wordpress and so there are different.
Chris Misterek:There are different tiers, like you know. You have one, one, one level. That's just the show up builder. So if you just want to create static pages, then we have like a multi site option, where you've got WordPress but you can't add in your own plugins, and then you've got the advanced blog, which is like it's just like having a WordPress website, and then you've got the advanced blog, which is like it's just like having a WordPress website. The difference is you design how you want your website to look and show it and then you connect specific WordPress pages to show it. So, but I've created, you know, like really advanced custom post types and advanced custom fields and obviously integrate with WooCommerce and all that kind of stuff to to make some really fun stuff.
Josh Hall:Interesting. I didn't realize that. So a self-made web designercom is that? Show it with WordPress integration.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, exactly yeah, so, um. So that's all very, very custom WordPress stuff connected to it, so, um. So a lot of people say it's like the missing link for WordPress, because you know there are some great WordPress builders, you know, Divi being one of them, Elementor being another, Showit is just much easier to design how you would want it to look.
Josh Hall:No-transcript. There are other tools that are coming out that are are kind of filling those shoes. But yeah, I actually didn't realize, to the extent of show it, of how far show it goes into that. So that's interesting. Good for me to know.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah, so you know, to answer your questions, like there's, there's all types of different designers that that use our platform. Um, we have leaned more towards a female audience. Um, and that's not intentionally, just seems to be like we, at the very beginning, we were the website builder for photographers, and so there are a lot of photography businesses that are female led, which is fantastic, and so, um, we've just had a lot of folks that are female business owners that love using our platform, um, and I've got oh sorry, but the crmiu 17 hats is the same way.
Josh Hall:It's largely female customer base and they started in photography as well. Yeah, there's definitely. Yeah makes sense. It just kind of comes with the.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah. And over time, you know, we kind of found that we had photographers as like an ideal customer avatar, but there was also the designer and a lot of people were photographers who built their own website. And then other people were like, wow, your website's great, can you do that for me? And so then they pivoted and built a web design business and and so that's kind of the other person that our platform is great for is like, if you're wanting to, you know, learn how to build websites and charge money for it, like it's a great platform for you.
Josh Hall:This was not planned. By the way, this episode is sponsored by show it. Show it Cause I actually wasn't sure if you were still involved with that. So that's cool, man it is. It is one of those things where, too, I really do feel for folks getting into web design now, cause it's just it's option, overload, um, it's there. There's not a right or wrong solution, there is. I really just recommend people play around with a few different things early on and see what they like. But, man, I mean, tell me about like experienced web designer like yourself with you know the, the, uh, the, the public transparent adhd that all web designers I feel strongly have in some level. How do you not just derail yourself with like shiny new tool syndrome?
Chris Misterek:Cause that is another big problem of folks five, 10 years 15 years in it to be like Ooh, shiny new tool with this. Yeah, you know, my encouragement to folks who are in that beginning phase is like one try out a lot of trial runs, you know, like most website builders. So it goes back to the video editor advice. You know, like like, stick to three projects and then evaluate like is this something that I am going to want to learn more about? And the answer might be yes. And so then you do another three projects and you just keep going until you have a little bit of an expertise in that. The answer might be no. And then you kind of pivot and try a different platform.
Chris Misterek:The problem with a client coming to you and saying I really want my site to be built on this and you being like well, I've never done that before, but let's try it. It's like it's going to take you so much time to learn the platform. Your profit margin is going to be abysmal. You kind of need to put your stake in the ground for a period of time you don't have to stay there forever if you don't like it, but you should at least to commit to a handful of projects before you say, okay, yes, this is what I want to do or I don't want to do, Because, as with anything, it's like you start looking at like, oh, look at all these other features that they just rolled out on Framer or they just rolled out on Webflow, and it's like all that stuff is great, you could probably be doing this stuff in the platform that you're currently using. Like, you just haven't really dug into it, you know. And so and that was one of the things that, like, I realized when I, when I came on the show, a team is like everybody told me like hey show, it's bad for animations.
Chris Misterek:And I'm like is it like? How do you know that? Is it just because you tell people it's bad? It's like. And so then I started looking into it. I'm like, oh, actually we could do a lot of really cool stuff. And then I started showing people the different animations that I was creating and it was like how did you do that? I was like it's just right. There, there's no code. You don't even have to have code, you know, but it's that oh sorry, go ahead, go ahead yeah, I was just saying you didn't have the um.
Chris Misterek:I I guess the the adventurous spirit to say, yeah, let's see if we can do this you know, sometimes you gotta take your wife for a date.
Josh Hall:Yeah, sometimes you gotta, you know you gotta spice it up a little bit. Like same thing with our tools it is. It is funny. It's like you use a tool for a while and then you just stop experimenting with it's going to start to sound creepy, but you know, like you just it. Like 17 hats, for example.
Josh Hall:I've been using 17 hats for 10 years at this point and there's a new tool called or newer called, moxie, which is a really nice crm.
Josh Hall:A lot of my pro members are using it, kind of caught fire. And and then it came to it where 17 hats sponsored our event and then that gave me the opportunity to just like re look at the platform and there was like so many new things that I just didn't even, I just wasn't paying attention to. I was like, oh my gosh, cause I almost started using Moxie. I'm like wait a minute, 17 hats does that and they do that and they just added that and like there's a lot of new things. I'm like, oh my gosh, I I feel bad that I haven't been talking about that in some of my courses and stuff, because I can absolutely do all this now too. So, um, same thing with divvy and others like, yeah, I totally agree, man, to avoid siney new object syndrome, don't bail on your current tool, whatever it is yeah, like squeeze the most juice you can out of your current tool before you think I need a new model.
Josh Hall:Yeah, yeah, take your wife out on a date this week, everybody.
Chris Misterek:That's a great analogy. I actually just wrote a newsletter where I talked about, you know, coming from the music world, which is where I was for a long time, you know, especially guitar players, it's it's all about the gear. Like I just need a new pedal or a new guitar or a new amp. And I was actually at a conference where, like this guitar player, who's like one of the industry's best, was doing a Q and a and inevitably somebody asked like hey, can you talk about your gear setup?
Chris Misterek:And he's like, uh, his name is Lincoln Brewster, so, um, can you talk about your gear setup? Who was it? And he's like, uh, his name is Lincoln Brewster, so, um, he's definitely more in like the Christian space. Um, isn't as popular as much anymore. He's kind of he's kind of gone off the scene a little bit. But, um, he was just saying, like I just use one pedal, like I don't even have an amp, like it's a line six pedal and that's it. And then he said, you know, it's, it's not about the gear that you have, it's about how you use it. And I was like, wow, that'll preach man. And that's so true for, like everybody in every industry, but especially in in any type of tech world, where it's like, ah, if I just had a better computer, or if I just had a better camera to make better content, or if I just signed up for this new tool that's going to integrate with my website builder and do all these crazy fun things, it's like, hey, maybe just see what you can do with where you're at.
Josh Hall:A tool is not going to save you. That's it, man. That's such a good point, chris. That is genius. I absolutely. It's funny for the music world, I do. You're totally right. I think that's probably the hardest for a guitarist, because even with drums like, you can add more to drums. As a drummer, I actually had that. I learned that mindset of like I'm going to do as much as I can with this, with these set of toms, these set of cymbals and, yeah, guitarists, I could see it's like I get a new pedal, gotta get a new whatever. Gotta get three new guitars, gotta get an h string, gotta get whatever it is. And, yeah, that's fascinating. That's such a good point. And singers have the easiest because, unless they're doing vocal effects, you just have a mic.
Josh Hall:Yeah, maybe nobody better to learn from with that than a singer like yeah right. How can you get as much as you can out of what you got, which is your voice?
Chris Misterek:yeah, absolutely, absolutely that's great man.
Josh Hall:I meant to ask you how you're doing. On time we can wrap this up here. I know you're at the uh, the retreat here but here.
Chris Misterek:But yeah, no, all good.
Josh Hall:Sweet man. Well, dude, great to catch up with you. This is, yeah, I'm so, so glad to see you back on the scene. Um, but, like I said, your newsletter, that first one that just popped in my inbox I was like, oh my gosh, chris is back. I think I've messaged you back, right? I was like, dude, good to good to be back. Yeah, man, I love that you're doing it your way and you're just enjoying it. You know kind of written stuff, for is your podcast back?
Chris Misterek:It is. It's mainly the YouTube channel now, so it's it's YouTube that also has a podcast, whereas before it was podcasts that also had a YouTube. Um, so we've reformatted it just a little bit, but, um, yeah, so still running and gunning and it's not like right now it's every two weeks or so, so it's not like a weekly thing, Um, but you know we're we're still doing it and still loving it.
Josh Hall:And is the YouTube self-made web designer. Yeah, it's the same brand.
Chris Misterek:Uh, yeah, all the same same, all the same thing across all channels gotcha.
Josh Hall:Oh, 25k followers.
Chris Misterek:Congrats, dude yeah, man, thank you I did.
Josh Hall:I did see that you had a few videos that were like oh wow, way to go, the three skills. I remember seeing that one yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris Misterek:They just kind of popped off. I was like I don't know. I at first I started doing them and it wasn't getting anywhere and then all of a sudden it just hockey sticked and I was like, oh okay, wow, this is fun.
Josh Hall:Yeah, man, what's next do you think for self-made? Then Do you have an idea of like you know your your funnel is. Is it the Upwork course? So you think in membership one day. What do you? What's's what's next for you?
Chris Misterek:yeah, you know, part of it is like self-made is kind of an arm of upwork or sorry, show it um, and so like I, you know, like I use a little bit partner with you, working them with them, right yeah.
Chris Misterek:So they're like I don't get paid extra because of my channel, that I do on the side, um, but like, know, show, it has the designer community which I oversee and and that's really, you know, like I love the designer community and love that it's, it's growing and can help people out. So I'm always trying to, you know, kind of bridge the gap between those two things.
Josh Hall:We need to have a uh, unrecorded talk about this, or maybe a different episode, cause, yeah, gosh, I feel like show it could boost tremendously with you doing the self-made resources that lead into show a community or have courses about Upwork. And then when people want to build websites and get clients on Upwork, what do they use? Chris uses show it. Here's how we do it. Yeah, I know, are you feeling with Brad Hussey?
Chris Misterek:Yeah, yeah, he and I are good friends.
Josh Hall:Yeah, I thought so, I thought so. You guys both have great stashes too.
Chris Misterek:Maybe one day I'll.
Josh Hall:I'll join the staff. I wore a fake one for our our in-person event. We did a mock-up sales call with my friend Jason, who I mentioned, and I had a stash as his central client and I looked I've never looked more like a cop.
Josh Hall:I was like, oh my gosh, I mean I look, I like yeah. So I don't know, I don't know, chris maybe. But all that to say, I know Brad does that with Wix studio, like he has his community, but his brand partner is Wix studio. Um, yeah, I might need to talk to Divi here. Anywho, yeah, Exciting times man, exciting. You know, even in like the, the influencer coaching world, there's so many exciting opportunities to now too.
Chris Misterek:So absolutely yeah. It's a lot of fun and a lot of uncertainty, but, you know, a lot of opportunity all at the same time.
Josh Hall:Heck, yeah, chris. Well, great catching up. Dude, thank you as always for your transparency, and wisdom to this point. And, man, I'm excited to see where Self Made Web Designer goes.
Chris Misterek:Yeah, thanks, josh, appreciate you having me on.
Josh Hall:Big thanks to Chris for coming on and again sharing some transparency about where he's at in web design and some of his journey. I know a lot of that related to me and I'm sure, related to you as well. Again, show notes for this episode are going to be found at joshhallco slash 394. You can check Chris out at the self made web designercom. That is also the name of his podcast. God, such a good name, darn, the good branding choices he made before I did so. Go check that out, connect with Chris, let him know you heard him on the podcast. Wish him well and I feel like there was something else I was going to say. It'll probably hit me right as I stop recording. So until then, I don't know, I'll follow up and make a note on it over at joshhallco slash 394. Cheers, my friend.
