397 - Life as a Corporate Web Designer with Chris Webb

When I began my career in web design, my initial goal was to “get a job” as a web designer for an agency or corporation…until I realized corporate life is NOT for me.

But that’s me, I enjoy the world of risk and reward of freelancing and entrepreneurship, whereas the freelance lifestyle is NOT for everyone.

So today I’m thrilled to share the conversation I had with Chris Webb, who’s had a long career as a web designer and developer as an agency and corporate web designer. But Chris also does freelance on the side, so he has a unique perspective on the pros and cons of freelancer vs agency vs corporate web designers.

What makes this convo extra special is that Chris has been a close personal friend of mine since early high school. I looked up to him big-time when I first got started in design because he was “the cool agency designer,” and he mentored me in many ways in those early days. So to be able to have him on the show now, 16 years later, is an awesome, full-circle moment for us both 🙂

Freelance web designer, agency web designer or corporate web designer – what’s right for you?

Let me know after this convo!

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/397

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Web Design Career Paths
• 11:56 Meeting Chris Webb: 20+ Years Experience
• 18:04 From Art School to Corporate Design
• 28:39 Agency vs Corporate Design Stress
• 37:24 Corporate Design: Stagnation or Growth?
• 46:56 AI's Impact on Corporate Design
• 57:58 Tools and Technology Evolution
• 1:07:07 Personal Growth and Career Boundaries

Transcript

Chris Webb: 0:52

I will say this and this is in terms of corporate is you have to want to be better. It's very easy to go to corporate places and for lack of a better term die. A lot of people will go to these companies and they will ride it out into the sunset and never learn a new thing ever again, especially really big companies that can't can't change uh as fast. Um, a lot of people, just like I just I just want a paycheck, but I do think that it is kind of a. It's a blessing and a curse, because in this industry, you'll always have a job if you want to keep learning. But if you get left behind because you're just not interested in it anymore, I think it's more difficult for you in the future.

Josh Hall: 1:48

Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Hey, my friend, now what a special episode I have for you in this one. For many reasons, but I'll just start by saying this. When I began my career in web design, my initial goal was just to get a job as a web designer. My thought was for an agency or a business or a corporation. I thought that was going to be it, that was going to be the dream, but I quickly realized about myself that corporate is not for me. I enjoy freelancing and entrepreneurship, the risk and reward that this lifestyle provides. However, I realize that that's not for everybody, so I'm so excited to share a conversation I had recently with a web designer who has been a corporate web designer for two decades now over two decades and he also happens to be one of my closest friends. This is Chris Webb. Chris has worked both as an agency web designer and corporate web designer and developer again for many years, and he has a very unique perspective on the pros and cons of being a agency versus corporate web designer, but he also does freelance on the side, so he knows quite a bit about the stresses and challenges of a freelance web designer. So that's what we're going to get into in this one. I don't want to encourage you to take one path or the other, because not one path is right or wrong, but if you're interested, like I am, in what it's like to be a corporate web designer nowadays, I think you'll learn a lot from Chris and maybe you are in a corporate role and you realize that things have gotten stagnant and stale. I hope you learn from Chris and are able to take a lot away into where you are in your journey. And if you're done with corporate and you want to come to freelance, I hope to be the one to help you there when you join my community web designer pro. So without further ado, here is my good friend, chris Webb, freelancer agency corporate web designer, all the above, all around awesome guy with decades of experience, and I'm excited to see what you take from him.

Josh Hall: 4:04

You can go to the show notes for this episode, which are going to be at joshhallco slash 397. All the links will be over there. You can also check Chris out. We will have his website linked over there. You can also go to chrisvwebwith2bscom. If you'd like to go check him out, say hey, tell him. You heard him on the Web Design Business Podcast. Without further ado, let's hear about what it's like to be a corporate web designer. Chris, what this is wild man. We do this in person. So to see you in Riverside this feels like a different experience. But, man, I'm so pumped to catch up and actually record one of our conversations. Every time we hang out and we leave I'm like, ah, I wish we were to recorded some of that.

Chris Webb: 4:50

So thanks for taking some time, dude, all we're missing is the big uh busy coffee shop, yeah, a nice loud coffee shop.

Josh Hall: 4:58

We're like what, what was that? Uh, well, kristin, I want to say, uh, I can't believe we've I've had the podcast for like six years and I haven't chatted with you publicly. Yeah, but I I just want to take this time to to say like a sincere thank you. Uh, when I think about when I got started in design and web design, there was really like two kind of like mentors a local business owner who helped me get started and you. You were preceding all that. I mean, you were like the first person I knew who was in graphic design and I remember being super jealous of your office at the NAS when you did graphic design. I thought that was so cool. When I was working, my cabinet making shop was like, oh my gosh, one day I'd love to be like chris and you know, go into an office and do design work. That would be amazing.

Chris Webb: 5:43

So and now you've taken off, man, now, uh, now I, I want to be like you. I I like how this, uh, how this, this works.

Josh Hall: 5:52

So yeah, what's the star wars?

Josh Hall: 5:53

the, the apprentice, has become the master yeah, seriously, yeah, well and what's so cool, man, is, like you know, we've both taken, we've stayed on similar trajectories, although we have, like you know, we have different paths, of course, but you've still stayed really consistent in design and last time we talked, I mean you're super entrepreneurial, uh, in all of your endeavors, but endeavors, but you've continued to like stay at the kind of I view you as like a bit of like the leading edge of of just design in general, with both web and then AI. Now, so, um, yeah, man, I just I just wanted to say thank you because when I think back to him, like gosh, you were such a huge help. I mean, remember when I got my first Mac? Do you remember that?

Chris Webb: 6:36

when I got my Mac, yeah, the iMac in your, uh, in your, in your your parents' basement or something. Yeah, yeah, my dad's basement.

Josh Hall: 6:43

I was like dude, chris, I got a Mac and you were just like holy cow, I'll be over in five.

Chris Webb: 6:48

I did, I came over that day, yeah, awesome.

Josh Hall: 6:51

Yep, showed me how to use it and everything. And then, uh, I mean, one of my first big uh experiences that really made me fall in love with design in general was going to that Photoshop conference with you, that, like you know, all day in-depth Photoshop conference, which was incredible. So, yeah, man, I just wanted to say publicly dude, thank you for taking me under your wing. You really helped me get going years ago dude.

Chris Webb: 7:13

Well, listen man, the the honor is uh all mine, um, pleasure is all mine. It's um, yeah, I mean just, I mean you did all the work and honestly, it was just me showing up to your guys's band and you guys were, um, you know, I mean you were drumming at the time and so I I think that was like our first engagement on on web stuff. They were like we need a website and so we ended up talking that was, you know, aaron or whoever it was and yeah, so you, you did all the work, man, I just I, I just got to enjoy the ride.

Josh Hall: 7:47

It was awesome well, I remember, I do remember when we were in the band days talking about a website and I think maybe I had just started dabbling into web design or had thought about it, I had already been doing graphic design. And I remember asking you like you know what would like a typical band five to 10 page website be? And you were. You said like a couple hundred bucks a page probably, and that like blew my mind. I was like what I was appalled and offended at. You know, a website that may be a thousand dollars and of course now it's like, well, yeah, obviously starting range. So, um, it is. I mean you, you you've been in freelance pretty much since day one, right, like just give us like the like, how long have you been in design, graphic design and web? I mean, I remember you doing it in high school. I remember you playing around with Photoshop in high school.

Chris Webb: 8:36

Yeah Well, so I guess I guess my story goes um you and I were in art together in high school, and so art was always a passion of mine, and, uh, I'd taken like a commercial art class I think it's what they call it then. And then, um, I didn't, I didn't really know what I was going to do with myself. I signed up to go to Columbus College of Art and Design in Columbus.

Josh Hall: 8:58

That's right. I forgot you went to CCAD. That's right, yeah.

Chris Webb: 9:01

I went there for six months and then I stopped showing up to classes and I just realized that my passion was not in drawing for the rest of my life.

Chris Webb: 9:14

And so actually and I have to throw a kudos over to my brother-in-law, wes Um, he actually took me under his wing when I was at the church and he was doing web design and all that stuff freelance and so, um, so while I was going to school he was just basically like mentoring me when I wasn't in class and um, and then yeah, I kind of took off from there. He kind of uh thrown me, uh, he had kind of networked with me a little bit, introduced me to a few other people that are in the industry. Uh, once I stopped going to CCAD, I switched over to Columbus state, went to the community college there, just enough to get a job, and then, um, and then, yeah, I don't know't know big kudos, my big kudos is the west, so I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. But yeah, the design work is what really got me into the web in general and I mean, now I'm I'm developing almost all the time.

Josh Hall: 10:06

So it's uh changed kind of quite a bit well, I love how the the trickle of inspiration kind of goes through not generations but just different people because, yeah, like you mentioned, west, family friend both, both of us. You know, brother-in-law for you, family friend for us and, um, so for those who, well, no one would know this, but when I played drums in the youth band back in the day, wes was our worship leader and I do remember Wes. I mean, he gave me some pointers so I got to throw him in as an original mentor as well. Now that I throw him in as an original mentor as well, now, that I think about it.

Chris Webb: 10:43

Gosh, it was so long ago, but I do remember hearing about him doing websites. I mean, we're talking what like 2003 graduated 05. So I mean, yeah, so I had to be 304, yeah, yeah.

Josh Hall: 10:50

So, like well before wordpress even came out, probably, you know, maybe, maybe before dreamweaver got to get wes on next dreamweaver, yeah, baby. It is cool, though, to think about, like, what wes was doing and I don't know where he picked up his chops from, but then that filtered down to you, which filtered down to me, which is filtering down that you know thousands of people now.

Chris Webb: 11:09

So, um, that's pretty cool thinking about I think that's the industry, though I what I do love about it is that it's a um, it's a sharing industry, like I do think at some point you get kind of competitive and everybody wants to. You know they, everyone wants to make a footprint, they want to, they want to be the shining star. But, um, yeah, I've been, I've been blessed with people in my life that have wanted to share some of that knowledge with me. Um, I think Wes got it from Greg, another guy from the church, so it's full circle, man. And here we are talking about it and, yeah, it's come a long way.

Josh Hall: 11:47

What have your different roles been? Because you started doing graphic design for the church right and then you were doing freelance. Did you do purely graphic design before web or did you get into web pretty quick?

Chris Webb: 11:59

Yeah, so I started doing graphic design. So in the beginning at the church I did graphic design for the youth, the kind of the youth ministries there. They didn't really have a need for the web, but I had already kind of started going down the web route, just because it was what Wes was doing it and that's where people were making money. And so I started doing graphic design, picked up web along the way and then it just kind of spiraled from there, I guess. Spiraled from there, I guess, um, I think dreamweaver was next. Dreamweaver was kind of like you're a half designer. It was good for designers because you could take it and then develop it just a little bit.

Josh Hall: 12:47

but really we're just using like their, their version of, like auto layouts and you just you're using, uh, you know, like would they have the, the one by one pixel, uh, spacers and yeah, I remember slicing it up and then you'd see the css and it'd be like holy cow this is what's going on, yeah, and now you just throw it into um now, you just throw it into ai and it just makes it automatically so so you, you got into web pretty quick but then like, uh, on your in your corporate life, what were you, what have your roles been in the in the corporate, and what is your role now? I still don't know exactly what you do right now, chris.

Chris Webb: 13:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, um, so all right, so go back to the beginning. So, graphic designer moved on from there. Um wasn't making like pennies. I needed to get a big boy job and I had.

Josh Hall: 13:40

Yeah, cause you got married too back then, right, weren't you married?

Chris Webb: 13:43

Yeah, yeah, I got married when I was 19. So there was there was the uh, the adapting to marriage life. And then, um, after that, greg the guy that I mentioned before, the one that had mentored Wes he had actually thrown my name out to a guy named John, and John was like my first intern boss and he's like hey, I'd love to have you come on for a little while, become just a web designer because that was all it was then. It was just a web designer. John had me on for about six months and then I finished my internship, went back to the church and then probably say I joined the military in 2010 and the guard.

Chris Webb: 14:25

So then, after I got back, I mean almost within a couple of months, I got a message from a girl named Courtney and she was like hey, I heard you do web design. There's a new job that's at a big company 31 gifts. At the time they were still around and they were popping off, and so they were like hey, you want to go on contract for a while. And at the time, like, like, I was like making very little money and so I'm like I'll do anything and she threw out like an actual like job that you can take care of your family money and I was like, yeah, let's go. So, uh, I went over there, took the contracting gig. I did web design. I could say I was their first official web designer. That's not a big name now, but at the time I thought it was cool, yeah I remember that man.

Josh Hall: 15:10

I remember you gave me a tour of like the facility I mean I did it wasn't. It wasn't much of a tour my socks were rocked off, dude, because I mean I was like holy, like you were like a legit designer at a legit I mean yeah, at the time, 31 gifts was huge, so yeah it was it was amazing.

Chris Webb: 15:28

Yeah, the first it was like an open layout. All of these, you know, professional designers and developers. They were all just hanging out in this big open space. We all had our own computers. Um, it was. It was unreal. Um, I I really, to this day, I'm so grateful for that job. If I had not, if I had not started there, I would not be where I'm at today. So, um so 31, yeah, yeah, huge kudos to them. They're not around anymore, but that was cool. After that, I jumped into the. I got deployed in 2014. And then, about a year later, when I got back, an agency had written and probably I'm guessing some of your listeners know this or whatever, but the agency was the pinnacle of being a designer, developer, like, if you went and worked, it was like the.

Josh Hall: 16:25

It was like the professionals, in my opinion of, like designers or developers who were really trying to make it yeah, because there's a difference between working for a corporate company, like 31 gifts, and then being in an agency where you're contracted to different corporations and businesses, right?

Chris Webb: 16:44

yeah. So, yeah, corporate is like you have one brand you have, and then you are 100 invested in that one brand, whereas and you have one development stack, you have one. You know, like the designers are all focused on one. You know set of designs, you don't see it, there's no landscape. But when you go to an agency, you know, when I took on to this, this job at this agency, you basically were like you could be working on five different brands at once, and so you'd have WordPress or you'd havenet or you'd have, uh, you know, uh, sometimes it was just like raw HTML code. Um, it was. You know, I love those people to death and they gave me, uh, the amazing opportunity to kind of check that box off. But that had to have been the most stressful time of my life.

Josh Hall: 17:38

I was just gonna ask what did you like more? Did you like being a lot, so we could bucket these two roles a corporate designer or a agency designer? Did you like being more of a corporate designer, more than the agency route?

Chris Webb: 17:51

I think I like the. I liked the agency work, but the timelines were stricter. You were pleasing so many different clients at once that it was just not fun. And here's the other thing too it's really like this anywhere and this is kind of like my view on design nowadays, anyways, it's not really your design, where and this is kind of like my view on design nowadays, anyways, it's not really your design Like, you have an art director, you have a creative director, right? I basically come up with the initial design and then they just redesign it based off my initial Like. So, um, if I had to pick, uh, I don't know, I'm in corporate world now, so I guess I liked corporate world more pros and cons to both.

Josh Hall: 18:42

Right, yeah, I mean I know from what I've seen in the agency world and just knowing, you know, working with some agencies and like I did some work with Rev Local and I subcontracted for them for a while and I've seen some of the agency world, I'm like man, I just I have, I just don't have an interest in the agency world and I know a lot of people gravitate towards that and I think it do. It does work for for some folks and depending on their aspirations and and the the stack of officer or office offers, excuse me and like what they're doing, yeah, it can work really well. It's like a full stack digital marketing agency. But, man, you said timelines and stress and I just don't know anyone who comes out of the agency world and was like, ah, that was just peaceful and fun and freedom.

Chris Webb: 19:28

Let's do this again.

Chris Webb: 19:29

I'll just share my. I had a, um, I had a, I was doing some work for giant Eagle and so this project was due. Uh, let's see, I don't remember when I started it, but it was due in December. And December came and they you know, the client had some feedback and whatnot. Well, in order for I mean, you know, for the administrative business stuff, they needed this project to be wrapped up before January 1st.

Chris Webb: 20:01

So December comes, we deliver the designs and the you know the development work and they're like, oh, oh, we want, you know, and we need some changes. Well, everybody's trying to take off like we're all just trying to get out for the holidays. Push comes to shove. It's like like new year's eve and I am still working on this project, like I I want to say I got, I'm pretty sure I got it done before then, but then of course, they had some more feedback in january, but it was like now it's, it's not, not worth your, when you're young and you have, you know, you don't have as many responsibilities, one thing, but when you're you got a family man, that's, that's brutal. So and it's different.

Josh Hall: 20:42

What's what's the feeling? Because I've never been a corporate or agency designer other than some white, some white label like subcontract work. But that was very different than like going there full time working. What's the feeling like between agency stress and freelance stress? You know what I mean Because like that can very well happen as a freelancer, but I feel like there's something different when it's your own business and you control a little more of the timelines and deliverables.

Chris Webb: 21:08

Potentially yeah, freelance is a lot more self-managed. Um, you have to make sure that you really do need to put pressure on yourself to hit all of your timelines. Um, at least as far as my freelance go goes, is I like to lay out a timeline for when they can expect everything. If it's a check-in after a week, or if it's a review after a couple of weeks, or if we say we're going to launch the website on this day. You have to. It's really easy to, because it's just whenever you have time to work on it.

Chris Webb: 21:44

Well, it is a lot of responsibility to make sure that you, if you want to be a successful freelance company, a brand, and you want people to to spread your name, you have to hit all of your timelines, whereas if you're in an agency world, like if you know, if I don't hit it, it's their brand that takes the hit. It's that you know. So there's a different, there's two different kinds of stresses. There's the stress of, like, trying to create your own brand, and then there's the stress of you don't want to get fired for not hitting the timeline. So so, yeah, they both hit differently.

Josh Hall: 22:18

What's? What's corporate stress? Is it just like the amount of people that you know you need to go through to get something out the door?

Chris Webb: 22:31

I imagine that's what it is. I would love to know I would. I actually would love to hear this question asked to a lot of people in in the corporate world. So in 31 gifts the stress was different, because so they used to have outlet sales, so all right. So I'll say this they would have general timelines for everything. But whenever it came to seasonal type things, things that were supposed to be released, you know, at the beginning of a new season, you had to have sites up at a certain time of night, like it had to be when the websites were down or I'm sorry, not the website when the viewers are the least.

Chris Webb: 23:06

So it'd be like two or three o'clock in the morning, and so you would have to go and release, uh, a website or whatever, and and back then this was probably like 2010, ish era.

Chris Webb: 23:20

Like then there wasn't like this, these deployment strategies, like, if you know, there weren't all these checks and balances, so like you could easily screw something up at two or three o'clock in the morning. Like you go to like, update the new website, replace the files. It was like you know your SOL, if you place and the stress is so much different, like I always describe it kind of like corporate world is like a cruise ship. You take a lot longer to turn around if you have changes. So if you're going down this path and you're in this cruise ship and you're like, ah, we're supposed to go that way, it takes forever to turn around, so everything's slower, everything needs to be checked, everything needs to be ran through all the different checks and balances, whereas smaller corporate places or agencies, you can move a lot faster. So even in the corporate world, there's a totally different dynamic.

Josh Hall: 24:37

Yeah, that makes sense. Have you seen office space? Yeah, I just imagine like I have eight bosses, eight bosses. So anytime I do something wrong I hear about it from eight different people and all of those cliches ring true. That would drive me bonkers, dude. That would drive me abs, I think, especially being self-employed and freelance for as long as I have, if I had to wait on multiple rounds of people, that would lose my mind. But I guess it's interesting because, looking at these different categories corporate, corporate designers, agency designers and freelancers they're they each have their pros and cons. Like, as a freelancer, you know, you've, you've done freelance for how many, how many years have you been in freelance?

Chris Webb: 25:20

technically, like, 20 years On my LinkedIn. It's like 2007 was like my, my start time, but wow I didn't get into like legit.

Josh Hall: 25:29

I didn't stop doing ban websites until probably 2010, so yeah, but I mean you know almost 20 years of doing freelance like there is a different. Like you said, it's a little more self-managed stress and, yes, you may have a lot of different quote-unquote bosses with clients but you control a lot more of that and you can ramp up and down with how many projects you want to take on, et cetera. Agency seems like just from the designers I've talked to and I know the rates on agency churn. I mean my gosh, designers are in and out and in and out and in and out, brutal, absolutely brutal. And then corporate, I feel like, is just probably just the bureaucratic stuff.

Josh Hall: 26:06

That is a lot, the the cons and downfalls that that come along with that. But they kind of each have their own thing, don't they? I mean you've done, you've done all three of those categories. I feel like somebody may need to just choose. You know, I mean obviously with this podcast we're talking mostly freelancers and in some agency folks or who, folks who are doing white label work for agencies, like maybe a couple different agencies. But all that to say you're never going to be a designer and have this perfect, clean path. That is not going to come with some stress and downsides.

Chris Webb: 26:37

Yeah, you got to accept it regardless. I think I will say this and this is in terms of corporate is you have to want to be better. It's very easy to go to corporate places and, for lack of a better term, die Like. A lot of people will go to these companies and they will ride it out into the sunset and never learn a new thing ever again. You know, especially really big companies that can't change as fast. A uh, as fast, um. A lot of people, just like I, just I just want a paycheck.

Chris Webb: 27:13

But I do think that it is kind of a it's a blessing and a curse, because in this industry you'll always have a job if you want to keep learning. But if you, if you get left behind because you're just not interested in it anymore, I think it's more difficult for you in the future because it's so easy. There's just so much that can happen in just a year. So I don't know, you have to kind of decide. I so, personally, I guess I'm not here to to to uh, sail off into the sunset, but it is slower. And I think if I could give any tips to anybody that's in the industry that's working in. Corporate is freelance is your way to stay edgy, to stay with the program. Um, so yeah, that's, that's my thought on that that's well said, dude.

Josh Hall: 28:08

What a segment right there. What a clip that is very well said. I mean, I feel like it's probably just complacency that corporate leads to, because, like you said, you do kind of get comfortable environment almost encourages that from the outside looking in because if it does take eight people to get through and then get a revision back in two weeks, it's like why. I would feel like like why rush? Like why rush this thing if it's going to take this long? I definitely could see how that all feeds into each other. Um, so a gold nugget of advice to utilize freelance to help you like, help you boost up in other areas, both creativity and you're staying on the leading edge of stuff. I mean, our last chat in person, you were sharing some of the AI stuff you're up to and I was like how, what I imagine that's coming out of your freelance endeavors right Rather than like is Nationwide. You to like go further in certain areas. Are you doing this on your own and then bringing it to the corporate world?

Chris Webb: 29:12

yeah, it's crazy. So ai, oh man, ai is. So everybody, every corporate world, um, every corporate company, they're all chasing to be at the leading edge of AI, and so it's a little bit of a contradiction to what I was saying, because the rest of a lot of development, a lot of design, a lot of that stuff is kind of slow, but they are. They are dedicating tons of money, millions of dollars.

Josh Hall: 29:44

But is that just because of AI Do that wasn't the case over the past 10, 15 years. But with AI, have you seen a shift in the corporate landscape where suddenly they're like, oh shoot, not only do we need to catch up, but we need to try to get ahead.

Chris Webb: 29:59

Yeah, yeah, the last couple of years. I mean it's to the point now where, so, copilot is GitHub's tool, I guess, and so they've installed it, they've allowed us to install it on our IDEs, on like VS Code, like our development software, and they encourage it Like it's to the point where it's your almost like your bosses are following up with you. They're like, hey, how like are following up with you. They're like, hey, how like are you, you know what's working for you? Um, so, personally, I'm actually on a project right now, uh, learning something about, uh, builderio. Um, and it is a ai software that can take designs and and basically turn them into very semantic, well thought out code.

Chris Webb: 30:49

And my boss is trying to check off this AI research piece for his own job and he's like, hey, I need you to do this and I need to know all about this software Basically, because there's this fear that if we're not pursuing AI, then the nationwide is going to look like they're behind. So so, yeah, it's. I mean, yeah, the last couple years, basically, when it went public. I mean, for sure, it existed before, we all had our hands on it, but once it went public and everybody had their hands on it, dude. I mean the amount of work and the amount of output that you can get out right now is unreal. So what?

Josh Hall: 31:35

what is your title? Are you a web designer on you know in your job description or a developer what?

Chris Webb: 31:41

man, um, so technically. So I got hired on as a creative technologist and that was like a fancy way of saying designer, developer, um, but now I'm a ui engineer, so that's the that's I mean. When you throw engineer onto any title, it makes you feel a little bit you know a little, you know a little fancier, but yeah where's the pipe with some smoke or something?

Josh Hall: 32:08

Yeah, wow, yeah.

Chris Webb: 32:09

Yeah, I walk into meetings with my my chest out. No, I'm just kidding, but yeah. So UI engineer is technically the role that I'm in now and it's basically the same thing. I feel like I mean they've had what a million different names. Like there was a time where people were calling themselves like web ninjas. I mean like you could, like you were. Like there was a time where people were calling themselves like web ninjas. I mean like you could, like you were like you could call it anything you want.

Josh Hall: 32:34

So, uh, yeah, um, shit, I forgot my question. It was a good one too. I derailed myself, damn it. Um, let's see. Oh, that's fascinating, though Just I do feel like there's probably a corporate shift and all that stuff. So you are what with, with the work you're doing right now, chris, are you overseeing, like team members in your, in your like, how's that work with the chain of command for you?

Chris Webb: 33:00

Yeah, so I'm on a really small team. Um, there's not a lot of hierarchy in our team. Um, we have um designers and developers on this team and I'm actually more on the developer side of this. Uh, yeah, team um, so then we have, basically we have our and it's weird, I'll just say this too like at this company, it's very weird.

Chris Webb: 33:24

You can be in, you can be a senior level something at agencies, other corporate places, but when you get into really big companies, they have their own like level. It's like the military. They have their own level of ranking structure and so you have like consultants, senior consultants, those kinds of things, and it feels like you're just working with. Well, I guess. I guess, to get more on track with what I was saying is you have like a director and that director is essentially the maestro and they're just kind of like hey, here's what we need done, and then can you, can you make it happen? So so, yeah, so we kind of kind of, we're kind of a um, oh, I don't know self-managing type. We all kind of we all pipe in.

Josh Hall: 34:16

there is no real hierarchy on this team gotcha, is your tool stack different for freelance versus corporate? I think that was the question I was thinking about a little bit ago. You've been using divi for years, um, yeah, yeah and I know you've been using, you know you. Obviously you can custom code um, but yeah, what's like your freelance tool stack and then what's your corporate tool stack it's a good question.

Chris Webb: 34:39

Let's see, I actually have um, so I always run. So I use chrome, so chrome is my browser of choice. Uh, firefox has kind of been like all, but like I don't know, we can't even use firefox at work anymore. So, um, and then I use vs code forward to my development. Uh, github co-pilot I I have a subscription to that. Um, I will say this everybody and this is my personal opinion everybody's using AI. It's crazy, I want to say. People in the industry pretend like they're not using it and then they're delivering this amazing code. Everybody's using it. So, if anyone's wondering, so I run Photoshop, illustrator, figma, and then I always have my terminal running. So my terminal is what I'm using to basically run all my little micro commands and things like that. So that's my stack at home. And then, of course, I'm still doing freelance. So then I'm running MAMP to. I'm not sure if that's what you're using or not.

Chris Webb: 35:47

I use MAMP to manage all of my wordpress sites. Um, mamp pro is amazing. So essentially, when I build a wordpress website, um which has been mostly with debbie lately, most so all of those websites I can build locally on my machine and then when I'm finished, I can take that and I can deploy it to the server or the, you know wherever the final landing destination is.

Josh Hall: 36:17

So okay, so it's similar because I use local um. Local w gosh. It's been a while since I opened it. Yeah, local wpcom is what I use. I wonder if it's kind of while since I opened it. Yeah, localwpcom is what I use. I wonder if it's kind of similar to where you can build locally and then you have an option to deploy it from there.

Chris Webb: 36:36

Yeah, probably this is what the agency used to use and I got used to it and so now I'm just like I'll probably die with it. You remember Mr Lundquist and he it's funny we're at this point, I'm at this point in my career. I remember he used a software called Fireworks. So Fireworks was like vector-based design before Illustrator wasn't even a thing, like before Photoshop was a thing. Everybody designed websites with it.

Chris Webb: 37:03

And I remember going to his class and we're all you know, we're, we're the leading edge, and we're like we're using Photoshop. And he's like, well, I use Fireworks, that's, it's what works for me. And I'm like, ah, like you're, you're so behind.

Josh Hall: 37:18

It's the typical old guy Won't get, won't stop using his.

Chris Webb: 37:22

So now I'm like on the software that worked for me like eight years ago. I'm like like I still, if I, I still want to use Photoshop for everything. If I can lay out websites in Photoshop, I would.

Josh Hall: 37:32

Well, this is a good point, man Cause, like I see this a lot now because I've been in this industry for a while 16 years this year and I'm working with a lot of people who have been in the industry for 10, 15, 20 years, and this is a really common issue, especially for folks who are running their own business and their own agencies.

Josh Hall: 37:52

They don't want to just drop their tool stack and have to relearn everything and hope it works out Like this is. This is why, interestingly enough, like with us using Divi, I know that Divi has taken a lot of heat over the past few years, understandably so, with it just being an outdated platform, because it was revolutionary in 2013 and 14, but it's dated now, well, until Divi five. But the problem is like if somebody has got a hundred client sites using Divi, they're not going to want to just jump ship right away and learn a whole new platform and migrate everything. That is a massively costly move. So I think this is really common with with folks who are who've been in it for a while is you get kind of not stuck with your tool stack but understandably, like set with your tool stack and man, would it take a lot to change those things.

Chris Webb: 38:43

But you know what, though, my my mentality has changed on that. I will be the first to admit that I was that young student who was like that looks at you know that would look at some of the more senior folk that would be using these old, outdated softwares. But, um, but now that I'm that guy, I'm the old guy, like, what I've realized is it has nothing to do with the tool. It doesn't matter what tool you use. Like it's the output, it's are you, are you um, are you delivering what they want? It doesn't matter how it came through phot, photoshop or Sketch or Figma or you know, or whatever the case is, if it's Divi, or if it's you know what's the new WordPress builder, like it doesn't matter.

Chris Webb: 39:29

It's the end result, is it doing what they expected it to do? And then can they learn it. But I will like say I mean I know you've had a lot of. You have a ton of experience with divi, but the new, like ai builder is kick ass. Like it is inside divi. Oh my gosh.

Chris Webb: 39:46

Yeah, I, um, I was messing with it the other week and I mean a simple prompt. I mean there's no better time to be a web developer like, or a web design like, literally like the power of if you are good at marketing, if you are good at communicating, if you are, if you love talking to clients, like that's what's going to set you apart now, like how good you design or how well you develop, or whatever, like a lot of that's being taken over by AI, like there's no reason for people to not be able to excel in a business of some sort. So I mean that's at least in my personal opinion. And the Divi, the Divi piece, I mean I think I I just wrote a prompt and I was just like here's a website. I really like it's.

Chris Webb: 40:38

I don't like the design, but I love the content. Can you help me build something that is similar? I mean it had a homepage like stood up in like 35 seconds and then you know all of the tools are there. So you can, you can tweak it to however you want.

Josh Hall: 41:02

When in your mind, chris, because I appreciate that challenge of like not getting too comfortable, like with the, with the story of Lundquist, our old CSS teacher. My question to you is like when do you change? Do you have like, have you ever thought about the metrics that you acknowledge when you want to change a tool, when you realize like, oh my God, I got to go to Photoshop. What was it front or what was Lundquist's old?

Chris Webb: 41:20

tool oh, fireworks.

Josh Hall: 41:21

Fireworks, yeah, like. The question is like, with that idea of moving from fireworks to Photoshop, when, what are the? Uh, what are the red flags or the signals? That's like, oh my gosh, I need to change tools, I need time to move.

Chris Webb: 41:34

Um, it's a good question. I always seem to know, but I never know how.

Josh Hall: 41:38

Is it gut feeling?

Chris Webb: 41:49

It's a gut feeling, but really like it's um, I've found that whenever I've gone to new jobs, they'll have a stack. And let me back up Agencies are great Like agencies are probably. If you know people in agencies and I actually stay in contact with all these people that I used to work with they we have like a discord Slack channel where we're all kind of talking about what we're doing. I would say the best thing to do is network with other people that are doing your job and talk about it and you'll know. If you're I mean if you're in the industry and you're reading up on websites or if you're listening to podcasts, I mean you're, you're going to hear, um, you're going to hear kind of what's upcoming. So, um, that's not a good, a good, uh, empirical evidence about that, but um, I do, I do think that if you just kind of keep your ear to the ground, you will, you will know.

Josh Hall: 42:42

So yeah, no, I agree with that and, of course, you know, with my community pro it's. That's one of the biggest, uh, hidden features of it is folks are staying up to date on stuff with all sorts of platforms and because it is agnostic, we of course have a lot of folks using Divi and WordPress in there, but we do have a lot of folks who are using Squarespace and other platforms, other CRMs and client management stuff. So, I agree, I think that can kind of help because you could probably get a sense of like what's popping and then like, okay, maybe I should take time to look into this.

Chris Webb: 43:17

Well, and that is that is kind of the. I mean we meet up for coffee, what every few months or something, and a lot of times it's just like through organic conversation. You know you'll be like oh, I've heard about Figma. Oh, you've heard about Figma, you guys are using Figma. I think I even asked you that when Figma really started taking off, Like, are you guys using? You know anything about Figma? And I don't know if you did at the time, but we were coming from Sketch and the more conversation you have with people, the more it's going to surface up like what their stack is.

Chris Webb: 43:49

And then you hear Sketch, or you hear Figma and Figma, Figma. You're like, oh well, a lot of people are using Figma. In fact, a good example was Adobe XD was going to be the competitor to Figma and there was a time where Sketch, Adobe XD and Figma were the three leading layout tools and we were all like, well, what's it going to be? Well, just through the natural conversation, you just kind of found out, well, figma's taken off and so now it's kind of the standard and I think they just have they just released a, you know, an ipo recently. So I mean, they're, they're taken off what's your ai stack right now?

Chris Webb: 44:33

um, honestly, I, um honestly, I chat GBT co-pilot. Um, I use it for almost everything. It's I mean literally just consulting it with code. Um, you know, getting some clarity on you know a direction that I want to go. Um, yeah, in fact, I pay for it, I think. I think the paid version is very uh, you can pay. I think it's like $20 a month or something.

Josh Hall: 45:01

Yeah, I'm on it too. The pro version, yeah, but what I love about it. So worth it, yeah, yeah.

Chris Webb: 45:07

What I love about it is that it keeps context over your entire, all of your prompts, all of your chat history.

Josh Hall: 45:16

It keeps context for everything, all of your prompts, all of your chat history. It keeps context for everything. By the way, this episode is sponsored by OpenAI and ChatGPT.

Chris Webb: 45:24

Get your free trial today Throwing out names.

Josh Hall: 45:26

Not sponsoring them, but we're both paid users, so yeah. I was just kind of curious. I wasn't sure just with how leading edge you are and this stuff. I wasn't sure if you had like 20 AI tools you're using, but so chat and co-pilot. Those are the big two.

Chris Webb: 45:41

Those are, those are really it. I mean there's a, there's Gemini out there. You said, claude, there's, uh, there's so many. But the thing is is like, if you, you know what's, what's the old saying? Um, if if you chase too many rabbits catch none, um, that's in this industry, you really kind of have to double down on something. And so for me it's just chat gbt, I think, or open, I guess you know, open ai, like they, they um, they really cover all the bases. Um, so anything that chat gbt is doing, gemini is doing, all of those other other companies are doing.

Josh Hall: 46:19

So dude, I'm I'm using it like it's funny I'm re. I'm just at the, the starting point of revamping nearly all of my courses. I'm going to start chipping away at them and I'm working on my first, my first revamp, which is my DNS course, and I'm going through each lesson, like how did I do courses without chat, gpt, especially with technical kind of stuff? Because I'm like when I'm diving into EPP codes, I know that deals with a website ownership, but what's actually going on behind that? So I'm including all that stuff in my new version of the course and it's so much better because it just takes so much R&D and just gets right to the chase and, of course, you need to fact check some stuff, but with stuff like that, it's pretty spot on. So, yeah, anyway, I was like how in the heck did I do these courses without the help of an AI assistant, like that?

Chris Webb: 47:12

Yeah, I honestly, man, I want to be the kind of stick in the mud. I honestly, man, I want to be the kind of stick in the mud. There's a part of me that's like I don't want to embrace it, just because I'm just I don't know. There's something like very I was telling a coworker about the other day. I love the art of coming up with something from start to finish, but that's kind of like my ego. Like my ego is, I want to say that I had control from start to finish and that whatever comes out on the other side was because of me.

Chris Webb: 47:43

Um, but you're, if you really want, the most quality product. It's not. It's not like AI is some magical software or some magical code that's out there, like it's scraping the internet. Like it is scraping the internet for the best possible results based on um, you know, based on the quality of of the websites that it's getting it from Um. And so there's a part of me that just thinks like, if it knows better than I do, then why not at least consult it? There are some things I try to do, you know, like for or for, or at least if you're going to lay something out, I mean sometimes the hardest part about a podcast or building a new website or doing is just getting started. Getting started and so just laying it out with chat, gbt, uh, or whatever your, you know your choices um kind of gets you over that like mental block of where do I get started?

Josh Hall: 48:45

Well, and a good example, because I'm so knee deep in this currently, like my big project at the time of recording this with you, Chris, is this DNS course I'm revamping and it has been eyeopening because I feel the same way as you do, in that there's a sense of pride that gets hit when you have help with this kind of stuff, whereas before I'm like that version of the course was all me 100%. I typed every single word. I did my own research and stuff. But I'm getting a lot more help now with ChatGPT in particular. But here's what I'm not doing. I'm not relying on it to create a course for me.

Josh Hall: 49:20

What I'm doing is I create the initial outline that makes sense to me and the lessons that I needed to know 16 years ago when I got into web design, and then I take it into ChatGPT to fill in the gaps or to help me expand on certain things that I'm Again, like EPP codes didn't know too much about it, the different type of DNS zone editors and stuff, or the records that are in there like ah yeah, I forgot I should add this, so that's where it's helping me tremendously is like to just fill in, but the core of the start to finish is still me like it's my journey, and one thing I'm really being intentional about with how I'm using AI with this stuff is in this course in particular, I'm starting off the course with DNS horror stories, which are stories that have reduced my hairline and that's how we're going to kick it off.

Josh Hall: 50:11

Just to show ChatGPT could come up with some scenarios, but these are going to be actual things that happened to me in my freelance web design business because I didn't understand some dns stuff. So, um, I'm kind of like trying to stay as personal and genuine and authentic with the help of ai, filling in the gaps and expanding on things where needed. So that's kind of my, that's kind of how I'm using it especially.

Chris Webb: 50:36

Yeah, I think there's a fear, and I think the fear of AI is that people don't understand it yet, and I think that they're trying to figure out. Where do you know? Where do you fit in in an AI world? I think the most important thing to remember is that AI is only most powerful in, in your, in a subject matter, as expert hands. Um, in fact, we were just talking about this is you could have, you could have a. You have to develop. You know you have two developers. You have a seasoned developer and then you have somebody straight out of college. Uh, they have no experience.

Chris Webb: 51:13

The the thing about those two is that if you give them the same goal and they're both going to use AI, if you give them the same goal, the seasoned developer is going to get a more quality output because they know what they're looking for. They're saying like this is what I want, here is how I want to get it, whereas maybe like a junior or somebody who's just out of college is kind of like they don't even know, like they don't know what they're looking for. Um, and they both will look like. If it's a homepage, they'll both look like a homepage, um, but but the one with the experience behind it, I think it's going to have the most longevity. It's going to have the best best to have the most longevity. It's going to have the best best uh output.

Josh Hall: 51:57

So experienced prompts, that's experience. That's where the gold is yeah.

Chris Webb: 52:04

So yeah, it's uh, and and you have to use it. I think you have to force yourself to use it, um, if you want to get better at it and to remove the fear.

Josh Hall: 52:12

So yeah yeah, that's great man. Well, I wanted to give a few minutes for you, chris. I feel like we got cut off on our last coffee meeting. It went so dang fast but you had some great questions about the event and everything. So I wanted to hear how you've kind of gone through agency designer life, corporate designer life, and freelance has always been a you know, refrigerator hum that has stuck with you for a long time. So I appreciate you, you know, sharing all that and being open with what you're doing with your tool stack and ai. But yeah, I mean I wanted to give you a few minutes if there was anything you wanted to ask me.

Chris Webb: 52:54

I feel like, yeah, I, I mean, firstly, man, I really appreciate you invite me on. Be to be honest, this is like the first time I've are really like ever, are like articulated my career so um, there are times where I feel like my mind is jumping all over the place and I'm like I want to say this but maybe for later, you know so did you know my web designcom with the two b's?

Josh Hall: 53:14

is that available? Did we find that out?

Chris Webb: 53:16

no, I didn't. Um, I know that it's not cheap and so I uh, yeah, with my last name being web, I probably, I probably should have jumped on that ship a long time ago.

Josh Hall: 53:27

I mean, that's just like the perfect branding by golly it might be worth it. Chris might be worth it If we ever do something together. We'll see about how much that costs.

Chris Webb: 53:36

Yeah Well, so like, yeah, so we were, we were talking downtown, here's what, here's what I'm really amazed about what you've, what you've done, and um, here I'm going to kind of gloat for you a little bit, but, um, I don't think there's really a good way to capture like not everybody puts together a successful one. I mean, you ran your own business before, um, before this podcast even took off, and so I, like one, I'm amazed by that. Um, then you went and you ran, you did the podcast thing, uh, you did the courses and whatnot, but then you went and like doubled down and came up with a conference which I just think is, I feel like as like kind of an extrovert, a little bit more of an expert extrovert. I'd like to imagine that I could tackle just about anything, but that to me sounds overwhelming. Um, I'm dude, I'm just curious like what was? Was there any fear in like deciding that you were going to do the conference?

Josh Hall: 54:42

I mean, it was definitely the thing that kept me from doing it was the feeling of overwhelm, just knowing how much work it was going to be, and it wasn't. Like you know, it wasn't a ridiculous amount of work, but it was a lot of work, especially being the first event. So that was the only thing that held me back. Amount of work but it was a lot of work, especially being the first event. So that was the only thing that held me back. It wasn't a fear of it not turning out well, but it was a like if I'm going to host an event, I also know myself and I can't do anything half-ass, for better or for worse, so I'm going to go all out. It's going to consume me for probably a few months.

Josh Hall: 55:16

So I had thought about doing an event. I mean, technically, when I created Web Designer Pro back when it was the Web Design Club back in 2020, I thought about doing some sort of an event. So the seed was planted long ago. But then we finally got to the point with the community where it was stable enough revenue-wise to where I'm like okay, I have a little bit of freedom and leeway to like spend some time elsewhere because you know I didn't need to hustle to get the revenue to a certain place. I really had to double down to get pro to, to be able to stable place to support me and my family and, you know, have a good trajectory there. And then it was like, okay, I feel like it's time I can do the event. But it was the overwhelming nature of like, oh my gosh, are we talking a 500-person event? Make it semi-public or just private? Are three people going to show up? Where are we going to do it? All these questions came into play. But it worked out freaking awesome.

Chris Webb: 56:13

Yeah, I follow it from you know, I'd seen it on socials and I kind of seen, you know, just I don't know it was. Just it was bizarre because it was like that's just a big thing, like to set up a conference and then to have the confidence in yourself enough to know that like I'm going to invite people from all over the world and then they're going to come and hang out with me, and then I would be like well, am I even that cool to hang out with? Like you know, like it's one thing to be here on a podcast and you can cut it up and you can, you know, you can edit it or whatever, but then for somebody to be actually there in your presence and they get to experience all your you know, like quirks and whatnot, like there's a little bit of like a I would have maybe like a minor anxiety trip I would have maybe like a minor anxiety trip for a bit.

Josh Hall: 56:59

I will say it. I think it helped because with pro, it's a smaller community. We have, like you know, just over 300 members total, which is a small community relative to a lot of Facebook groups and and other communities. So there's beauty in that, though, because, especially with the coaching aspect, I know so many members and I've tracked them for a while and they've been with me for many years in some cases, so it would be different.

Josh Hall: 57:24

Here's what I'll say it would be different doing like a big public event where I don't know people very well, but even the members who came who I didn't know super well, we got to know each other really quick, and there was such such a sense of bringing people together who we all have seen each other in different aspects inside of Web Designer Pro. So I think that was the key, honestly, was the fact that we were a close community already online and then we became a closer community in person. So that helped for sure. That was a big, big time confidence booster. If I were to host like a random web design event and then you know a ton of people are going to come who I don't know the, the feeling would be different. I would definitely feel like, okay, I'm going to need to, like you know make this are there?

Chris Webb: 58:13

are there things that you would have done differently? Like, do you look back and be like damn like I didn't like I I would have done differently. Like, do you look back and be like damn like I didn't like I would have changed that.

Josh Hall: 58:20

No, I literally wouldn't change a thing and I think I think the, the, the um, it sounds douchey, sounds boastful, but I really truly would not change a thing. I think the amount of people was perfect. We had just under 40 WebCenter Pro members come. The space was perfect at the AC Hotel downtown it was just killer. The events were perfect the Clippers game, our dinner at Boogie to Peppa was awesome, the socials we did, the nightlight stuff we did. It was truly the perfect weekend.

Josh Hall: 58:54

But there was a few things that contributed to that. One was I had been thinking about it for a long time and my thought was it helps that we did it in columbus because I, you know, we know the city well. So, like I know, with a group of once we found out how big it was going to be. I had two different spaces as options. One was like for under 24 people, one was for over 24 to 50 to 60 people. So either way, like if only eight people bought tickets, we would have been like, okay, we can do the lower space and try to, you know, get 20 folks. So I had like some plan B preparedness ready to go in that case.

Josh Hall: 59:30

But once we figured out how big it was going to be. Then it was just a matter of like okay, what can we do with 40 people? You can't go to a coffee shop with 40 people unless you rent it out. Um, you know, you can meet smaller, smaller meetups in like different bars and restaurants and stuff, but then, like as a group you know, the baseball game was perfect, clippers game, what we rented a suite out, it was perfect for that size. Buca di pepo, the italian restaurant, can hold, you know, 50, 60 people. So it was like, where are we gonna go to eat with 40 people?

Chris Webb: 1:00:00

like there we go. Oh dude, yeah, so it was all in walking distance.

Josh Hall: 1:00:04

so I mean, it was honestly a big thanks to just columbus being just such a great city and being very walkable and not too big, not too small. So that was huge. But yeah, so all those things, like it was those types of things that were the most work, because I needed to do the work of, like you know, organizing all of it and then, um, just the admin kind of stuff. But I had some help. We had a member in pro Austin who was a huge help for a lot of that stuff. Um, bounce a lot of ideas off of him to think through some of that. And then, um, yeah, it came together. Man, it came together quick. I really wouldn't change a thing and we're going to run it back, we're doing it again.

Chris Webb: 1:00:40

I was going to ask him like are you going to? You're going to do it again.

Josh Hall: 1:00:48

So yeah, we just need to limit it. That people for sure, but that's going to be the hard cap on 26 and then we'll see you could run out nationwide arena well, some people say that, but that's a whole like and honestly it's a whole different deal.

Josh Hall: 1:01:01

like I think in the future if an event grew past 50 to 100 people would be a separate thing and I would even be open to doing like a big web design event that would be presented by a web designer pro. But then you know, the community event is going to be smaller and for the coaching tier of of members, at least first dibs, so yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome, it was a good, it was a crowd. I'm still on a high from it months later.

Chris Webb: 1:01:28

I know I do have one more question I am. So when you decided to do the conference like, was is the goal of a conference? To build? To build a in-person relationship with your members, like, like, what. What's the what is the biggest gain out of doing a conference?

Josh Hall: 1:01:48

that one for sure it Truly. It's a retention type strategy. It is to strengthen the community, because when you meet people online it's great, but then when you meet somebody in person, it's just a whole different level. This is why I'm such a big proponent of web designers getting in person and meeting clients, because you just sell better, you make better relationships. Especially in the age of AI and online anonymity, it's more important.

Josh Hall: 1:02:14

So that was the biggest goal was to just strengthen the community and get us together in person. There's different types of goals from what I've seen with conferences. Some of it is revenue, some of it is to upsell, something like higher end. I know a lot of influencers and communities will do like an in-person event and then they sell a mastermind or like a high tier ticket product. That was not the case for this. Um, I'm not opposed to those type of things. It would be a great additional option if I, if I, do some stuff like that. But this was purely like let's get in person, strengthen the community, bring us together. I definitely didn't want to lose money. So, like we were, we were, we were, we were plus five grand.

Josh Hall: 1:02:56

Yeah, we were plus five grand thanks to our sponsors, so like that was great. Obviously, you know, I didn't technically make that much with the amount of money or amount of hours I spent on it, but it is going to pay off dividends years and years and years ahead. So, yeah, that was the big goal, for that one was like let's get us in person, strengthen the community, um, and create these friendships. And like a lot of people, uh, actually this week, at the time of us, we'll have to send you this episode at the time of us talking about this um AT, who's a member of pro. He has a podcast episode we did together on AI that I'll send to you.

Chris Webb: 1:03:32

It's really good, I was just listening to that before. Okay, cool, my podcast chops on.

Josh Hall: 1:03:38

I didn't know he knew anything about AI until we met up and he was just casually talking about it, like you talked about. You just casually start talking to designers. You hear about their tool stack, you hear about what they're doing. That was that case. You know 40 times over, so you know. Meeting him and hearing about that, I was like dude, I didn't even know you were doing this or how far along you are in AI. So that was the kind of hidden beautiful thing about an in-person event is it's not something that's marketable in the sense of like if you go to this event, you'll have amazing conversations and you'll learn this, like it's just probably going to happen.

Josh Hall: 1:04:12

Now we did a workshop. I intentionally made it a workshop day. That is like you're going to get some training, you're going to get some sort of like. For sure, even if you don't make any friends, you're going to leave with, you know, making it worth your time with these presentations. But it was the community aspect that really was the. I mean it was all incredible, but yeah, it was. It was the surprises. That's what.

Chris Webb: 1:04:39

I'm looking for it was the surprises that were the best part of the weekend. I think, yeah, well, I will say as a, as a, as a longtime friend, uh, I think I think a lot of your success has come from building genuine relationships. Uh, I, I think that you know it, whether it's it was starting in web designer pro or if it was, you know, and back in the in transit, I think it was in transit. Yeah, uh, all of your relationships were genuine and strong. And so you know, I think that's um, I, I think it's only par for the course that you would have a conference where you go, and you guys's pictures looked awesome. You guys were like get the blue jackets game, or I don't, I don't want this blue gadget, but you were like you know, yeah and um, you know, I think that's it's.

Chris Webb: 1:05:19

It's. It's only natural that that's the direction you ended up going to Well.

Josh Hall: 1:05:23

I appreciate that man. Yeah, I mean that is kind of, um, that's definitely a core, like principle that's carried on with me. I mean honestly going back to like high school. I remember like I remember getting like quite a few different groups of friends like connected together. I've always enjoyed being a connector and like having, yeah, genuine relationships. Looking back, I've had zero tolerance or interest in like fake, false, douchey relationships. That just doesn't interest me at all. Even I think a lot of people do that if it's like. I mean going back to like school dynamics, it's like you find the top dog and you try to be friends with them so you look cool, I just don't. I've never cared about any of that. Like I'd rather hang out with you know, art class, chris, and let's hang out and then do life together like that's so much more interest to me than, uh, yeah, like the the vanity metric kind of yeah, you did a pretty good job.

Chris Webb: 1:06:17

Though you were you, you dabbled very well in a lot of different groups. So, um, you know you, you've always lived by your own code and I thought that was always cool.

Josh Hall: 1:06:26

So that's, uh, that's, that's pretty, pretty sweet so it is interesting how things back in those years translate and make total sense now, because that was not something intentional back then to have a bunch of different groups of friends and then have a fairly dabble nature of connecting people. But it literally worked perfect. When I went to the band life because it was very similar you had a bunch of different people and different bands and different promoters and marketers and it was networking. It was just networking in the music world. And then that transitioned to the first iteration of doing freelance and then growing my client base and then getting into web design.

Josh Hall: 1:07:06

And then, once I got into teaching online, I met Elegant Themes and then there was a podcast called Divi Chat and I reached out to them and I was like, hey, I'm a Divi designer, I'd love to connect with you guys and potentially be on. That spawned a ton of different relationships and then, yeah, it's kind of followed that same playbook. Basically there's not an intentional playbook or thing I follow, but it's just kind of natural for me. I think that's something I learned was to be self-aware about just like how I operate, and yeah, that's kind of how I do it. I do have to catch myself, though, because I can tend to dabble in a bunch of different relationships. Well, that sounds terrible.

Chris Webb: 1:07:45

Uh, not, not on a marriage front but a friendship front Very low on a marriage front Right.

Josh Hall: 1:07:52

Uh, but like, I do tend to, like, you know, like be really interested in a group for a while and then if I get disinterested or whatever, I have to like like move on. But it's interesting. Like you, I really only have like a few close friends you, you, you in there for sure, like, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that you and I we're on the exact same path, but we share a lot of similar interests and, honestly, like, a lot of that has to do with the fact that you and I we're on the exact same path, but we share a lot of similar interests and, honestly, like a lot of my friends from high school, we just I don't even know what we would talk about today. Like, I just don't care about Buckeye football that much. The weather's fine, whatever.

Josh Hall: 1:08:25

I just I don't know I would get bored quite quickly. So when you and I get to meet up and and that was that was the cool thing about the the event was like small talk stuff just kills me, it just drains the life out of me if I'm not interested in it. So to have like non-stop conversations about entrepreneurship, it was like a, it was like a hangout with you for four days straight and it was awesome. So we.

Chris Webb: 1:08:50

We can make that happen. We'll have our own conference. We'll just do it.

Josh Hall: 1:08:54

The web, the web and hall, the web and hall web design conference yeah, I love it man yeah, I do.

Josh Hall: 1:09:01

I appreciate that, though, man. I mean as I, and I think it's important for a lot of people to know, like, yeah, how do you operate? Like what lights you up? So I recognize that a lot of people are not like me and I think it's important to be very self-aware, like, do what gives you energy, like, do what lights you up, you know 100 yeah, and I, to be honest, I really am just fighting there.

Chris Webb: 1:09:21

There's so many things I could say, and so I'm just fighting there, to, uh, to not over speak, but oh yeah I, I think that, um, yeah, I, I think that the yeah, the genuine nature, is definitely what's the most successful part.

Chris Webb: 1:09:37

I sort of lost where I was going to go with that. We were talking about the conference. Yeah, I don't know. I just think that that was a yeah, that's the most natural direction that I think you could have ever gone, and I don't think I'm going to find the question that I was gonna ask well the idea of genuine, genuine nature and character.

Josh Hall: 1:09:56

I actually I think that's really really important, especially today because of ai, like people can sense bullshit more so than ever. A mile away and I think, years of the entrepreneurial hustle culture and the like, the lamborghini lifestyle, private plane stuff is just not resonating like it was. I mean, that's been the case for a long time. But I do think there's even more opportunity, even just for service providers, as web designers like the more, just like real you are and somebody's like I just I trust this person and I resonate with them, I like them. That's it, that's how, that's how you make it, that's how you sell.

Chris Webb: 1:10:33

Well and I think that was that was the point that I was going to make is when I was saying that you live by your code. Uh, what what I do admire is is that when you have, when you have, boundaries that are defined, you're like this is who I am, this is what um like, maybe this is what I talk about, or this is what I'm interested in. And I think when you're younger and maybe you're just trying to fit in in life, you'll just talk with anybody. I'm that guy, I was the guy who wanted I had a slew of friends across a big smorgasbord of just people to talk to. But what I've found as I get older and I want my kids to see this, that's define, define your boundaries.

Chris Webb: 1:11:14

Here's who I talk to, what I talk about, here's what I believe, here are my, my stances on life, here, and then stand by them. And I think that you, I really do think you've done that really well, because I think that you have quality relationships and I know for myself I've had better quality relationships and there's nothing wrong with the people that you know that you were communicating with before. But you have to know the direction you want to go. And in order to do that, you need to have some guidelines, you know, otherwise you're just like I said you're going to chase all kinds of rabbits and you'll you'll, at the end of your life, you'll just have, you know, a very chaotic story.

Josh Hall: 1:11:55

So it's an interesting point too because, like, when it comes to boundaries and constraints, you know you're a dad of four girls. Like you get to a point where you only have so much time and bandwidth and then it becomes all about like priority and it's weird to think about putting people on a priority list, but you kind of have to do that at some point. It's like you know, like, like I like to be honest, I'm only going to go to coffee and hang out with folks, like so many people with the limited time I have. Like, if you ask about it, absolutely we're on. I'm going to make time for Chris. But there are some people like this just happened recently where somebody mild in the old band-aids asked about hanging out for lunch.

Josh Hall: 1:12:35

I'm just like this seems it seems weird to think about this, but I'm like, what's the roi on my time? You know what I mean. Like you do get to a place where it's like is this? You know this is an old friend, it would be a great comma but I'm like you know I'm gonna have to take time away from my family or my work. I'm, you know, in a busy season, as it always is. So it's like, is that going to be worth, but then of course you know it's not going to be an hour, it's going to be an hour and a half, and then you got prep and afterwards it's like we're looking at probably three hours is. Is that going to be worth it, or should I get my dns course done and and I should probably do that or do this podcast with Chris? That's a bigger priority. So I've had a friend, learn that.

Chris Webb: 1:13:14

Hey, I do believe in the return on, the return on investment, even with friends. It's, yeah, it's. It's not that I'm looking to gain some sort of monetary value out of you, but I don't want to. I don't want to invest into you if you can't invest back into me. I don't want to overdraw my, my bank account in order to kind of make you, if you can't invest back into me, um, I don't want to overdraw my, my bank account, uh, in order to kind of make you, you know to, to be friendly.

Chris Webb: 1:13:39

You know, I want if I mean you and I, we don't, we don't even get together. We get together every few months, but usually we have something like appetizing to talk about and we, you know, we want it to be valuable for us both to have a conversation and, um, because we're both busy and so when we get together, you know, it's nice to know that, like, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look into this or I'm gonna share this with josh or whatever, so well, I mean it goes back to iron sharpens, iron right, like that.

Josh Hall: 1:14:06

Just the idea of like, yeah, we, we both challenge each other when we meet up, like whether it's ai stuff or whether you asking me about event stuff and what I'm up to. Like we, we both leave. Like Ooh, I guarantee you've left some coffee shop meetings, just like I have. Where it's like, ooh, I want to jump on this, I got some ideas now and that's the best man, that's so much better than the, you know, going somewhere with an old friend from high school. And it's like, oh, and again, I I feel a little bit about saying it like that, but it's just the reality. Like you only have so much time, uh, when you're a busy family man, entrepreneur, all all the things, so you have to use the time wisely and that's definitely where I've landed.

Chris Webb: 1:14:44

Yeah, yeah, A hundred percent man.

Josh Hall: 1:14:48

Yeah, dude. Well, speaking of time, I know you're on a big project, so I really appreciate your time on this. Chris, this is great man. Where should people go to catch in with you? And until we can figure out purchasing web designcom, where can people go?

Chris Webb: 1:15:03

Yeah, yeah, you can, yeah Chrisvwebcom and pretty much Chris V web for everything, all the socials, so I'm, uh, I'm there, so heck, yeah, dude.

Josh Hall: 1:15:17

Well, chris, thank you man again publicly. Dude, thank you for investing in me with your time early on. I mean, you know, I just think. I think back to those early days often like gosh, it was, it was you. You probably had no idea the, the, the seeds that you were planning to help me get to this point. So big thanks, man.

Chris Webb: 1:15:35

And thank you for uh returning the investment uh with me and you know I appreciate it and all the conversations to come. So it's awesome, heck.

Josh Hall: 1:15:43

Yeah, dude, let's meet up here, let's meet, let's meet. We're about due. We'll be due here pretty soon, so let's do it for the end of the year, for sure.

Chris Webb: 1:15:51

Cool, Thanks brother.

Josh Hall: 1:15:52

Thanks, chris, cheers dude. All right, my friend. Well, I do hope you enjoyed this one Again. These are the kind of convos I'm lucky to have with Chris here in person every once in a while and I'm so glad we had a chance to sit down and actually record one of these and I really took a lot away from this conversation. I'm sure you did too. So leave us a comment, let us know any takeaways you want to share, whether you're a corporate web designer or whether you're a freelancer or anything in between.

Josh Hall: 1:16:21

I'm sure Chris would love to hear your thoughts from this one. I will let him know. To check the comments for the show notes for this episode, you can leave us a comment at joshhallco slash 397. And again, you can go check out Chris. His personal site is chrisbweb. That's two Bs at the end, com. That will be linked, of course, at joshhallco slash 397. Big thanks to my good friend Chris for coming on and sharing quite transparently which is not always the case with folks in corporate life if you ever noticed that A lot of times they're very tight to the chest with their stuff but really appreciate Chris sharing about his experience transparently pros and cons on the life of a corporate web designer. And yeah again comments joshuaco.397. I will be on the lookout for your thoughts and takeaways and I will let Chris know the same. All right, my friend, stay subscribed. More good episodes on the way and some fun stuff on the podcast here soon as well. So make sure to subscribe and I will see you on the.