398 - Trademarking Your Web Design Business with Ann Koppuzha

Ever wondered if you should trademark your business?

There are a lot of reasons you may consider it:

• You may want to sell your business one day.
• You might want to make sure no one can take your brand name with no grounds for legal action on your end.
• You might have a productized service or product you want to sell eventually.
• You may just want full control over your brand as a whole.

For all those reasons and more, you might be wondering if you should trademark and what the process is.

To help with that, I’m excited to bring, back onto the podcast, personal legal commandant Ann Koppuzha who recently helped me get Web Designer Pro® officially trademarked!

We walk through the entire process, what to do and what to expect.

Again, whether or not you want to sell your business one day, there are many reason you might want to consider OWNING your brand name or a product or service that you offer.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/398

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Chapters

• 0:00 Building a Sellable Business
• 2:57 Trademark Essentials with Anne Capuza
• 9:54 When to Trademark Your Brand
• 17:13 Trademark Categories and Legal Protection
• 29:24 Checking for Trademark Infringement
• 43:09 Trademark as a Business Value-Add
• 51:03 Final Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Ann Koppuzha: 0:52

There's going to come a day where we literally can't work anymore, even if we want to, and so, therefore, we should be prepping to sell our businesses eventually. And what does that entail? That entails a couple of things that I thought about. One it's having a unique brand. So when you sold InTrans Studios, it was called InTrans Studios, and I'm sure that really helped having a brand that like separate from you and that you can sell to someone. And then someone was like okay, great, now it's in transit studios.

Ann Koppuzha: 1:20

I'm selling that to Eric and the clients that we transit studios is okay, there's a new owner in transit studios, but in transit studios itself is it is still continuing to break. So that really helps to having a monthly reoccurring revenue and having it auto built, just like you say about having your maintenance plans like that is gold Right, and having to be able to have those plans set up and so that someone wants to buy it can be like if you don't get another client ever again. Here is a list of continuing monthly recurring clients. That's really helpful. Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.

Josh Hall: 2:06

Hello, my friend, it's so good to have you here In this one. We're going to dive into trademarks and help you decide whether or not now, or maybe eventually one day, that you want to trademark your business name, or maybe even one day that you want to trademark your business name, or maybe even one of your products or services should you choose to sell one day, or even if you just want to own your actual brand name, trademarking is going to be the way to go. But this is not a painless process. In fact, the reason I'm so excited to share this conversation with you is it is with a web designer and online marketer slash lawyer. This is Ann Capuza.

Josh Hall: 2:42

She has been on the podcast before. She is my personal legal confidant. She is who I turn to for all legal matters and she also does trademarks. So I've actually worked with her and hired her to help me trademark Web Designer Pro and I'm here, use the little copyright R symbol on the logo and I have pure ownership of that domain and that name as a brand and as an entity. That gives me full control of whatever I wanna do with it moving forward in the future.

Josh Hall: 3:27

So to help you with this, ann's got a lot of great tips for you and again, trademarking in particular is something that you may wanna consider as far as when you wanna do it, how you wanna go about it, what the process looks like. That's what we unpack here in this one. So I want to personally give a big shout out and thanks to Ann, because it was a long process, but she is a hound dog when it comes to legal stuff and she just gets stuff done and she got our trademark done. So Web Designer Pro is officially trademarked. Thank you, ann, for the show notes for this episode.

Josh Hall: 3:57

Go to joshhallco, slash 398. There you can connect with her and get all the links and resources that we mentioned. So head over there. After this and now my conversation with Anne to help you decide what you may or may not want to trademark in your business eventually. It's really good to have you back, anne, good to reconnect with you here. I actually just I'm in Jay Klaus's membership the lab and somebody asked about I don't know if you reached out yet, but they asked about oh cool.

Josh Hall: 4:26

Cool, yeah. He asked about some sort of issue with taxes or moving a business and they asked if he knew a lawyer and he said he's from California. I'm like, oh, two birds, you got Anne who will get it done, and you're in California.

Ann Koppuzha: 4:39

So, um, yeah, thank you, I really appreciate it.

Josh Hall: 4:40

Yeah, no problem. Listen, you have such a unique like area of specialty in the market, especially with where I am, because most of us just don't know many lawyers and we do they're just the kind of the old curmudgeon type. Um, you are very uniquely and well positioned to be a lawyer for creatives of all types. You talked to me recently about how, when it comes to selling something, to really consider trademarks and the legalities of the services we create, and I want to get your thoughts on this up front. But we just had this conversation in pro recently on a coaching call where I think we all kind of realized any service we create is a product and any product we have is an with the assets they're creating. So yeah, I don't know the initial question, but I do appreciate prompting me on that idea. So to find that, yeah.

Ann Koppuzha: 5:44

So here's what happened. I was talking to another entrepreneur who is not a designer but is in the landscape business and she was telling me that she's thinking about buying another business. So I'm like, oh, okay, great. And then she was telling me what I like about the business is that there are, there are already clients. He was like it's a turn and play business. And I'm like, okay, that sounds really cool. And I was like, are those plans are like, is it like a monthly retainer and is it like auto billing, right, or do you have to like wait for them to send you invoices and checks and stuff? And she's like, no, no, it's all auto billing, they're all. You know. I, as soon as I buy the business and I all that information will get transferred to me. And I was like, wow, this is exactly what Josh talks about in his web design club and they're also in Web Designer Pro and then also in your business course.

Ann Koppuzha: 6:32

Because, you know, I always think at the end of the day business course, because you know, I always think at the end of the day, we should all be building businesses that are sellable and we need to do that because one like at some point we're going to want to retire or at some point we're going to have to retire right, like you and I are sort of at our midpoint in life and you know, at some point it's going to. There's going to come a day where we can't we literally can't work anymore, even if we want to, and so, therefore, we should be prepping to sell our businesses eventually. And what does that entail? That entails a couple of things that I thought about. One, it's having a unique brand. So when you sold InTrans Studios, it was called InTrans Studios, and I'm sure that really having a brand that was like separate from you, and that you consult someone and then someone was like okay, great, now it's in transit studios I'm selling that to Eric and the clients. That we transit studios is okay, there's a new owner in transit studios, but in transit studios itself is it is still continuing, right, so that really helps.

Ann Koppuzha: 7:35

Two, having a monthly recurring revenue and having it auto-built, just like you say about having your maintenance plans like that is gold, right, and having to be able to have those plans set up and so that someone must buy. You can be like if you don't get another client ever again. Here is a list of continuing monthly recurring clients. That's really helpful.

Ann Koppuzha: 7:53

Three, having your standard operating procedures written down so that all these processes are figured out and can be easily communicated and trained by the next person. That is really important because one of the biggest hassles of buying a business is okay, now I'm in this business, how do I run it Like, what do I do? Right, having everything written down and then. Four, having clear financing and accounting. That's also really important. I think you always talk about using 17 hats for all of your invoicing purposes or things like that, and so having a system like that. So, basically, I was thinking about this story and I was thinking about this woman that I was talking to and I was like, wow, josh covers all of this in his business course and in Web Designer Pro, and so this is just. I was thinking about how applicable it is and how web designers can intentionally build a business that they can ultimately sell because it is an asset.

Josh Hall: 8:42

Let's talk about that idea and I do love that overview. This is really timely because we're just this month of time of recording. This is five years since I sold in transit, so I think the episode I'll be doing on that is going to come out prior to this. But I have had some time to think about that. Things I would have done differently and things I did well and those things you listed out. Some of those things I did really good on and some I could have done better on, like clear bookkeeping, but it's because I'm using at that point I had a few things outside of 17 Hats as well.

Ann Koppuzha: 9:12

Yeah, you didn't have a Jaws call to tell you all of these things yes, right, yeah, yeah. But you're the OG Pathfinder and so you didn't have you.

Josh Hall: 9:22

And what's interesting, though, is to that point of building something intentionally to sell, even if you don't want to sell it. Right now, that has become more and more clear to me how important that is, and I think, just for sanity as a business owner, most web designers get to the point where you're like I am literally just, I created a job for myself that I can't keep up with, and even if you want to scale, if you treat your business sellable, it will help you scale and it'll help you bring on folks. It'll help you automate things. So, for somebody who what what's like your challenge? And for people, apart from what you just said, what's what are some more reasons to build a sellable business?

Ann Koppuzha: 10:09

I think there's nothing more for me personally, when I started thinking about this, it changed the trajectory of my business. It completely changed my business model. One um and a two it's freedom. It made my business a lot easier because of just what you said of like when you are just doing client work, you're in day in, day out, like that is a grind. It's gonna get like if you were trying to scale. It is going to get busy and stressful and at the end of the day, weirdly like that's ultimately not what's most sellable. Like it, it's helpful, it's certainly like great.

Ann Koppuzha: 10:48

But like you know, someone that's going to buy your business wants to buy some sort of productized set that they can just be like okay, great, it doesn't matter who the owner is, this business is going to continue as is, and so I just it pushed me to think about a more productized business, and then trying to develop a more productized business has made my life a lot easier at this point.

Ann Koppuzha: 11:05

One in terms of like being like okay, these are the specific services I offer, this is how much it costs, this is how many hours I have, and then being able to like plug that into my schedule.

Ann Koppuzha: 11:14

So now, when someone comes to me and they say I want people advice and I can price it appropriately, but if they can't pay that, then I'm like, okay, well, I really can't help you because I need to stick to this price point in order to hit a certain revenue goal, in order to like hit, in order to make this whole business manageable, like it has to be at these assets. And so it's freed up a lot of guilt and given me a lot more control over my schedule. One, and just in terms of me thinking about my services that way, and then, two, I am shifting more and more to a more productized business and scaling with contract templates, and that's been really helpful for growing my business in terms of something that's like more aligned with my energy I'd love to create. I'd love to create products and content and valuable and the podcast and things like that. I don't necessarily love doing site work as much, and so being able to sort of shift more in that direction has been really helpful.

Josh Hall: 12:06

So productizing in and around the services that you have, like you said, what aligns with your energy, what aligns with your calendar. Another aspect of a sellable business that I found more recently is we've been having some conversations with some of the more we'll say established in life pros as in like they're older and it's interesting because a lot of folks who I oversee, and just folks I know in the industry, maybe started doing web design in the 90s or early 1000s and they were in their 30s or 40s and now they're like mid 50s or mid 60s in some cases and they're really like, yeah, what's the exit plan for this? And there's, of course, the sellable route. But I think another interesting offshoot of that is like a pass downable route. What's that called? What's it called when you pass down your business? What's is there a technical term for?

Ann Koppuzha: 13:00

that I mean, I don't know, I don't know, there's a technical term, but you can sell your book. A business right.

Josh Hall: 13:06

You can sell like if you pass it down to kids or um you know, somebody takes over your business internally yeah, oh, setting up like some sort of like family business.

Ann Koppuzha: 13:14

Yeah, basically like what does?

Josh Hall: 13:14

that look like to. It's just kind of interesting, you think of like family business.

Josh Hall: 13:16

Yeah, basically, like what does that look like? It's just kind of interesting. You think about a family business like I worked with a steel company and they were a third generation, so every generation you know the dad took it over. And then I'm thinking, like with web designers, they were getting to that first, soon Maybe now in some cases we're in that first, like people are starting to pass down their web design businesses to their children if they should want to, and it's fascinating to think about that because it feels so new. But it's like holy crap, some people have been doing this for 30 years.

Ann Koppuzha: 13:46

I mean, yeah, absolutely. The key is having a lot of clear, standard operating procedures to be like okay, this is how we go about getting new clients, this is the process, this is how we onboard them, this is how we execute a plan of project, this is how we conclude the project, having a lot of clear processing that you can then just train the next generation, whether that means you are hiring someone now to run your business because, josh, I think you did that in transit you had hired a designer, right A couple years To help you, yeah and Right To help you, yeah and so to help you run the business, whether that's your exit plan, or you're hiring your, you're training your children or whoever it is to take over the business, or you're selling your business.

Ann Koppuzha: 14:28

These are all different ways to be able to sort of take that business and keep it running, even if you want to, if you want to retire or you want to get set back. But again, the key is having clear, standard operating procedures back.

Josh Hall: 14:35

But again, the key is having clear, standard operating procedures. Would you view in like a different path of legality? Set up trademarks and stuff, whether you want to sell something to a third party or whether you want to pass down your business to your next of kin.

Ann Koppuzha: 14:49

I mean so in terms of, like, a lot of this process is going to be the same. You know you want to have monthly recurring revenue. That's great. Obviously, that's what's going to make the difference between whether this is sellable versus whether or not this is a business that you can pass on to your heirs, like your whoever or whoever you hire. Like those people can run it even if you don't have monthly recurring revenue.

Ann Koppuzha: 15:11

In order to sell it, you really need that monthly recurring revenue. That's like super important. And that's where your maintenance plans come in. And that's why all the content on setting up how to maintenance plans like what are you offering, how to sell it all of that is super gold to like building a sellable business, because you absolutely need that. That's what people are looking for, where, like, how much is coming in monthly? And then is that like on auto pay or whatever. That's important. And then, of course, the rest of it is really important for doing both in order to sell your business or in order to pass it, which is having some sort of unique brand, having clear SOPs and having clear finance and accounting so you can just hand over all the documents to a potential seller or whoever's going to run it next, and they know how to run with this.

Josh Hall: 15:56

What about tax setups and trademarks and stuff like that? Would either one of those, any of those areas, be different, or would that pretty much be the same?

Ann Koppuzha: 16:05

So tax setups is that should be about the same, because you know if you're running a business like, you should have some sort of optimized tax structure depending on what level you are at. Like maybe you're a sole provider if you're under 50K, maybe at 100K you're at LLC and you have an S-board, things like that, and then maybe if you're going beyond that, you have other, more specific tax studies. So that should be the same.

Ann Koppuzha: 16:30

In terms of trademarks, trademarks is kind of tricky because, on the one hand, my attitude is sort of like trademark is kind of tricky because, on the one hand, my attitude is sort of like trademarks are really good if you want to expand and grow, to trademark your own business name like you and makes complete sense, you know it really it's not necessarily critical. I think it's very, very helpful and important for all businesses to do a trademark search when they're starting their business to make sure that the name they choose for their business is not infringing on someone else's business. But whether to file an actual trademark is more of a question of expansion. And so yeah, if you want to have like different in transit studios, like all over, all over the country, or maybe in transit merchandise like, then it really makes sense to trademark in transit. But it doesn't necessarily make sense if you're not necessarily marketing national age.

Josh Hall: 17:21

What about does it increase the sellability if it's trademarked? If somebody were to take the, yeah.

Ann Koppuzha: 17:29

Absolutely Right, Because that's like a different I mean, that's often pretty much is often part of the like the acquisition process, because someone wants to know that if you have a branch, that it is already protected, that it is already secured and protected.

Josh Hall: 17:45

What about here's a good one for you, anne what about services or products or packages within a bigger brand or just a wider name brand that has like they're like individually trademarked? You know, we've both worked my good friend Shannon, you've worked with her. She has like trademarked entities under her wider umbrella of brands and I think about some web designers. We have a web designer, whitney in pro, who has the wellness website system. I think it's trademarked and it's like her main product but it's under her personal brand and it's like. You know she could sell that technically. But my question is like can you have like a different level of trademarks? Could I have in transit studios trademarked and then have you know Package 1 be trademarked and our maintenance plan be trademarked with clever names? Is that common at all?

Ann Koppuzha: 18:39

It is common for bigger brands, as you know, like if you've seen Nike, nike's trademarked almost every aspect of their brand, like their swoosh, their logo, like their Nike, the name like the sound, their swoosh, their logo, like their nike, the name like they're, the sound they so much of nike is trademarked and they do it because they want to protect their brand cover. They trademark the sound yeah, I'm pretty sure they did. There are lots of companies do that right, like nbc and the nbc, I think, trademark.

Josh Hall: 19:04

They're like those dings that you hear um that people identify with them and so yes, so if I sneeze and accidentally sound like nike, am somebody going to come to my door and be like hey, josh, you owe a hundred bucks for that.

Ann Koppuzha: 19:16

No, because you're not selling that right.

Josh Hall: 19:18

Yeah, yeah, gotcha.

Ann Koppuzha: 19:19

But in terms of whether or not you can, you know the things you can trademark. You can trademark your name, your business name. You can trademark like any sort of like signature product or framework or something like that and there are entrepreneurs that do that and then any kind of products or merchandising. So if you're going to be, if you're going to look at Nike, they're going to have that. They're going to say, nike in the hat category and Nike in the shoe category and Nike in the clothing accessories and Nike in like other sportswear. They trade back all of these different things. So, yes, it's absolutely, you can absolutely do that. Big brands absolutely do that.

Ann Koppuzha: 19:50

And then for smaller businesses, it's really a question of what is worth your resources. So for you, does it make a lot of sense to trademark Web Designer Pro? It absolutely does. You know, are there other assets part of it that you could necessarily trademark? Maybe, but it's just a question of, like you know, for small businesses it's always a question of prioritizing what you're spending on, and so sometimes it makes sense and I have seen lots of people do that trademark, you know frameworks and specific products and sometimes it doesn't, because it's not necessarily a growth vehicle.

Josh Hall: 20:21

Well, I'm even thinking about with this podcast. I don't know if I should say this live publicly, but like I don't have web design business trademark. But part of me is like it is, you know, like we're the number one podcast in web design. Now it's the top generator for my business. So part of me is like maybe I should get that trademarked as well.

Ann Koppuzha: 20:41

Right, but that's what I'm saying you have something that is scaling and so that would make sense to be able to trademark all of that. Not everyone wants to scale like that necessarily, and so it may or may not make sense.

Josh Hall: 20:55

Yeah, but I do imagine if somebody has a maintenance plan and maybe a product ties web design service that are like two separate entities, I wonder if they were to sell those off to maybe different people. Maybe that would be, I guess, what my question is, like, when is the time to trademark? You were on an episode two, 54, and we talked about like when to switch up your legal structure, you know roughly with ranges, like if you're, you know, you even said like if you're under a certain amount, just make money and then you can, you know, figure certain the legal side of it with your setup as it expands. But same thing with trademarks when, yeah, when is the time to trademark?

Ann Koppuzha: 21:35

The thing. Okay, I think every business that actually let me back. Let me just start with a story Like I had a cousin who started a business and she sent it to me and she was like, and I was like, oh great, um, I, you know, I'm a trademark supplier. So I happened to like put her name into the trademark system and I'm like, actually, this is a trademark name Like, you can't use this. And then so she had already done all the branding and so I was like, okay, you had to switch everything out, because there's a legal risk that if they ever come after you and say, stop using our name like, you have to rebrand everything, right, and so that's something I think about one.

Ann Koppuzha: 22:08

So what my takeaway from that is when you are starting a business because that business is not your name and if it's like something like in transit studio, the powerhouse legal strategy like you should definitely do your research to make sure you're not trampling on someone else's trademark. That's really important because you don't want to have to like if somebody like somebody could come after you then and say, hey, you have to like change your name and then you have to hire a lawyer to communicate with them. That's annoying and expensive, or like you could pay legal fees, and obviously that's like, and those can be in like thousands of dollars and obviously that's not something anyone wants to pay for. So that's why you should always, when you start a business and it's not just your name you should always double check to make sure that your name is not affecting someone else's trademark rights.

Josh Hall: 22:56

And I offer us. Where do we do that, anne? Is that just a Google search, or is there like a directory where you can look up trademarks?

Ann Koppuzha: 23:03

Yeah, so you have to do a thorough search on both, like on different platforms and on the USPTO trademark service, and if you want a lawyer to do it, then I can do it or some other attorney can do a trademark search. But people often, often skip this part and this is like a very important part of it to make sure that you're not scrambling on someone else's trademark rights. I actually have a different platform and someone came to me and they said that I was infringing on their trademark rights. Unfortunately for them, I was absolutely not and I had been using the brand name for longer than they had come up with it, so they didn't do their research to see if I was using it. And then they attempted to get me to change my name and I said no, not changing my name because I've been using it longer.

Ann Koppuzha: 23:48

I said no not to use my name because I've been using it longer. So that's what I say. Like, you really need to be able to do your thorough research and that means you know, look on Google, click on the USPTO trademark search and look at different platforms as well, and if you would like more professional assistance to do that, then I offer a service to do this for designers, or you can find another lawyer who can assist you with this kind of stuff. This is a critical part that most entrepreneurs miss and most designers don't know to tell their clients that they need to do the trademark search for a name when it's not their own name.

Josh Hall: 24:22

Yeah Well, and it kind of gets to the point of like, when you're a designer, you're just excited to find a domain name that's available typically, and then it's like, oh shoot, I mean that's actually an additional way to check too. It's like what domain extensions are available for your name, Because if they're all taken, it's likely there's other brands using that. So I'll make sure that's linked in the show notes. So USPTO Trademark Search, that's a good resource and, as you mentioned, I mean, your trademark lawyer is one of the many things that you do. I've been working with you for Pro.

Josh Hall: 24:55

Back to the question of when to trademark, though, I imagine you don't want to be about ready to sell your business and then hunt for a trademark, so would you recommend that it's when somebody gets to a certain revenue range or a certain phase in their business, certain phase in their business, or is it when they adopt this mindset of like, okay, I'm going to treat what I do as like a real business, real products, real offers, real packages, and then start a trademark? I would imagine you also want to make sure you keep the name, because you don't want to trademark something and change the name.

Ann Koppuzha: 25:26

Totally so, actually. So one do the trademark search as soon as you're starting your business, whether as long as it's not just AnnKabuzacom or Joshuacom, like not your name, you're being a different name which you should to make your brand less sellable. Do the search as soon as you start your name. As soon as you start your business, as soon as your clients come to you and they're like I want to build a website for my new business. Like do this trademark search then, in terms of actual trademarking, I think this is a hot take.

Ann Koppuzha: 25:53

I don't think you should trademark right away. I think you should wait at least a year of using that name because, as long as you're not affecting someone else's trademark rights, you can start, go ahead and using that name. In fact, the uspto needs you to start using the name in order to show proof that this is a name you're using to file a trademark. So I think you should wait at least a year, and the reason why I say that is because a lot of people change their names in that first year. I certainly did, if I know, like I know lots of people who have, because their business has evolved, their product has evolved and now they want to go with a new name. So I don't want you to put the money toward trademarking if you're not sure you're going to stick with that name.

Josh Hall: 26:32

Yeah, so you can. I'm sorry, just case in point. I got a little trademark trigger happy a few years ago and then I thought for sure, because I bought webdesignbusinessmasterycom. I bought that domain and I was like this is going to be my high level program. I thought for sure it was before I revamped things into what is now Web Designer Pro and I was like I'm going to do this for sure and I went through Trademarkia and I spent $400 on getting that trademarked, didn't get it and didn't end up using Web Design Business Mastery, so wasted $400 and jumped the gun on trademarking that when I didn't need to.

Ann Koppuzha: 27:05

Yeah. And so start thinking about trademarks about a year into using that brand and you're like wait, I definitely want to stick with that name and brand and therefore I'm going to invest the time and money to go through the trademark process. And you know it could be expensive. Like the actual trademark is a couple $100. If you're going to hire a lawyer, that's going to be $1,000 plus. And then you know you have maintenance fees and stuff like that. So there's no reason, I think, to put down the time and money if it's not some, if it's not a name you're sure you're going to stick with. Now it does take, you know, nine to 12 months to get the trademark and so you don't want to start it like right when you're thinking about selling your business Like you do want to start it like sooner than that. But it's helpful if you do it like I think about a year and to make sure you're committed to this idea and name.

Josh Hall: 27:51

So that's good. Committed to the name, it's not taken. I know you've stressed the importance of checking the, the trademark, just to make sure you're not infringing anything. So well received on that. That makes total sense. Committed, you have like a proof of work and a proof of a brand, either a website or a website extension with that brand, and then, yeah, that makes sense.

Josh Hall: 28:14

I'm visualizing this as like okay, and then when you're like, even though I don't want to sell, I want to make this a sellable asset or a sellable business. That's probably the time, because it's still I mean, that's still affordable in the sense of it's not tens of thousands of dollars, it's not like a huge financial commitment to get a trademark, but it is a time commitment, there's work to it, and then, as you mentioned, your options are basically to hire you know you or another trademark lawyer, or you do it yourself, which is extremely time, time intensive, potentially what. What are your thoughts? And you can be brutally honest on trademarkia and these other like do it yourself yourself. We make it easy to do. A trademark is is there. Are there a lot more to the story than than sites like that?

Ann Koppuzha: 28:57

or josh, you've worked with them and then you've worked with me and maybe you are the best position to speak about what the difference is is like to work with me versus you. I mean, if I like I don't want people to think that I'm just, I'm obviously biased, like I think you should have a trademark lawyer, but yeah, I'd be curious what your thoughts on the differences it makes it felt like a big agency.

Josh Hall: 29:18

It felt like everything was standardized and they had different people they were turning me to to answer forms. And then the weird thing was I signed up for different trademarks, initially for Web Design Business Mastery and another one, and then they were different times when I signed up for them, but then I got like two emails at the exact same time to pay more because they couldn't get them in the first round. So it was like Now I had a colleague who had a good experience with Trademarkia, but that was not my experience. He must have had just a different brand name and maybe because I went for Web Design Business Mastery but didn't have anything on it set up, I I needed to hear this conversation first because I went for the trademark first and didn't go for the, you know, for the, for the commitment or the proof first.

Josh Hall: 30:05

So yeah, I mean absolutely. Um, especially at my level, where time is more important to me than than anything else Like, yeah, it's, it's a no brainer investment for me to have you who knows what the heck you're doing and knows who to talk to and get shit done, rather than me trying to fumble through and then having to talk to these other people and do calls and get different. Yeah, that was definitely my experience. Wouldn't recommend it. Wouldn't recommend trademarkia or the uh.

Ann Koppuzha: 30:32

The other experiences that's my hot take live in public so I think the difference is, when you go with one of those trademarks, you can see tech services. You're just, it's literally a mill, like they're trying to go take you in there, easy process like all right, great, your trademark is rejected or not. Like they're just the quickest, they just want to minimize the time. Uh, when you work with a trademark lawyer, like you get someone who's like caring about your business, like I deeply care about your business, but I'm a pro right and so like I'm gonna put like extra care into it and like give you more strategic advice, being like hey, joss, I think we should file in like multiple categories, not just one, and like that sort of care and attention like can go a long way in getting you a better legal result and it's really important and really undervalued, but like you will. Whoever you hire into your business, like you want to make sure that there's someone who cares about your business, um, and also there's small business owners. They're going to understand what you're going through a lot better than some other male, and so you you know all that context is really helpful. And then the third thing is I try to tell my clients what are the chances you're going to face another legal problem in your business ever Pretty high right. And so, hey, if you come to me and you come to me for your trademark, what are the chances you might want to come to me for another legal issue sometime down the road? Or legal question Pretty high right.

Ann Koppuzha: 31:52

And so having a lawyer that you know and you can connect with if you have, like a legal question, even if you don't need to hire them immediately. But if you're like, hey, I'm thinking about this, do you have any advice on this? Maybe they can give you a quick, like one sentence response. That's really helpful and you don't get that with one of those mails Like it's really helpful to know a lawyer. So this is like one of the things I try to do. I just try to make sure people know that I exist. Like if you have a legal question even if I'm not going to charge you for it like if I exist, you can come to me and ask me that question and I'll try to be as helpful as possible one thing I did appreciate when we started going for the pro trademark initially was your kind of um, your expertise in your consultative nature on the different type of categories, which was news to me.

Josh Hall: 32:37

basically, I mean, like with a lot of those other trademark sites, you can, you can see and you can choose, but you're basically blindly choosing what you think would be good. Can you dive into the different types of categories for trademarks and is it possible for somebody to be trademarked in marketing but then not for business, like how, how does that work without opening too much of a can of worms?

Ann Koppuzha: 33:00

yeah, you know, this is one of the trickiest things about trademarks. A lot of things about trademarks seems really straightforward until you start doing it and then you're like, wait a second, this is like kind of confusing. Um, so, for example, there are just lots of different categories and you want to be strategic. I just filed a trademark for someone last week and they wanted it to be in they're renting out airbnb and I was, okay, great, let's look in the airbnb category, that category. There was a similar name already in that category. So I was like, all right, then you might get rejected in this category because there's already someone's trademarked in this, in the hotels and restaurants category.

Ann Koppuzha: 33:37

So then I decided to look in advertising and business, which is a different category, to see if there was another appropriate like description that would be fitting for what they did. And sure enough there was one for managing rental vacation homes, and so I filed in that category instead because I was like, all right, there's no one with this name in this category and so we're going to file in this category strategically instead of the other category, because there is already a business in that category, and so if there's a chance that my client could get rejected in one category, I always look for another and try to do at least another backup option because I want to maximize their chance of them getting a trademark. So that's just. The question about categories can be a little tricky and can be an opportunity to think more strategically.

Josh Hall: 34:24

Is it possible, if you have a business that is named something but you don't have a trademarked, and then another business comes online and has the exact same name and then gets their own trademark, will the trademark? Who is they behind trademark? Is it just like the US government?

Ann Koppuzha: 34:46

Yeah, you can file trademarks at the state level and at the federal government level. I, the state government is cheaper and quicker, but the problem is like then you're restricted to your state, so maybe if you're running like a pizza restaurant in your state, it's not important to expand nationally.

Josh Hall: 35:04

Yeah, and that's fine.

Ann Koppuzha: 35:05

That's fine for you. But you still want to check to make sure that there no one has a federal trademark so that you can still use that state trademark in your state. But if you're for you, for example, like you have a international business, right like so, there's no point for you to register, just with ohio, like actually you're reaching people all over the country, all over the world.

Josh Hall: 35:24

So having a us trademark is a federal trademark, is what's important so with somebody who has a service and they call it something and they're like this is my thing or this is my business, but they haven't even thought about trademarking it. If someone comes along and has the exact same business, exact same state, maybe they're and they want to trademark it, could they essentially bump you off and force you to change your name if they trademark first?

Ann Koppuzha: 35:49

No, they can't force you to change your name if you've been using it longer, because using itself gives you trademark right. So they can't bump you. The problem is that company that's trademarked has much more opportunity to grow, do merchandise. It just creates a little. It could create a legal battle down the road and trademarking is cheaper than fighting that legal battle down the road.

Josh Hall: 36:13

So what would happen in that case of you know, like I'm in Columbus, ohio, let's just well, you just use in transit studios. For an example, I have my agency. I never trademarked it, didn't even think about it, didn't hear this conversation in time. And then another business we'll just say for the sake of ease in Ohio has the exact same name, intrinsic Studios, and they're dead set on trademarking this thing. They're dead set on making this their entity. But I've been in business longer. What are their options? Would they just have to encourage me or pay me off to use a different name, or would they just trademark as much as they could and then wait for legal battles down the road?

Ann Koppuzha: 36:51

so they I mean essentially like they could go on and they can continue to expand um, and then if they wanted you to stop using that, then they could, like they would, they could pay you to stop using it, or they can try and fight you legally to say, hey, we own this trademark. Now, federally you're restricted to ohio, um, so that means you can't advertise? Uh, you can't. You have to limit your advertising to just ohio, like. It becomes a more complex question of exactly what their options are and what they want and what they want to do, um, and I just think it's you know, I want my clients to spend the least amount of money they have to on legal fees. No one likes spending on legal fees, um.

Ann Koppuzha: 37:32

And so that's why I always say, just if you are, if you are going to grow a brand or grow a business like trademark early, rather than having to deal with these kind of questions later, because if you have a trademark, you can always be like, yeah, I already own a trademark. You can always be like, yeah, I already own the trademark, so you can't stop me from using it.

Josh Hall: 37:47

Well, I love the reminder that just starting the business and having that longevity of it seems like that's one of the most important pieces. It's like, no, I've had this name for a long time. I mean, even if it's a domain registration or how long has the site been in existence or whatever. I imagine that holds some weight. And then also a really important point to double click on there is that there's a huge difference between local state level and then nationally and then global. There's like four different levels. It seems like I used to use a service called Cardinal Lawns. There were a lot of Cardinal Lawns, but in Central Ohio know, in central Ohio there was that one that was like the Cardinal lawns here. Um, we're actually now using a company called Weedman, so I'd love to see how many companies called Weedman have trademarks. So someone do some a fun search with that.

Josh Hall: 38:39

Um but, all that to say. Like you know, there were a ton of Cardinal lawns, but this was the one that was like I don't know what there's. You know the situation looked like, but a Cardinal lawn in California is probably not an issue with Cardinal lawn in Ohio, unless there's SEO implications, exactly, but the thing is for designers, like so much of your work is national, like I don't know if there are.

Ann Koppuzha: 39:01

I would be curious, josh, how many of your members get all their clients locally versus how many of them are sort of marketing and getting clients from all over the country. I suspect I'll cut.

Josh Hall: 39:09

That's. The problem is like, yeah, a lot of people do local SEO or just, you know, start locally, and that was my case. I didn't know I would ever get a client outside of Ohio. But referrals start happening. And then you know if you work with Cardinal Lawns and their cousin Bob has a landscaping company in New York and they're like, oh, we would love to do the website too. Suddenly you are national. Whether you meant to or not, you're national. So I do think for designers, web designers in particular, it's important out of the gate to think nationally and globally, because you can't control your referrals.

Ann Koppuzha: 39:41

Yeah, and even Sam, who does tons of local SEO right, he has a YouTube channel and he's growing nationally and internationally, right, and so, yeah, local SEO is absolutely important for building your business, but your business is not limited to local SEO.

Josh Hall: 39:59

It can expand far beyond that. What do you think the value if you look into sell a business or make it sellable? What would be the value of like? How much does a trademark help that value like? If we were to say we wanted to sell something for a hundred thousand dollars, how much more valuable could I sell it with a trademark?

Ann Koppuzha: 40:20

it's a really good question and the answer is it's more of like a business asset than shows how well your business is Because it's just like having clear books to be like, okay, well, like I can literally give you all the paperwork to run this business, like you don't need to do anything more about it, you don't need to worry about competitors, you don't need to be worried about future legal fights. These are all the type of things that like it's sort of like another thing on the checklist and make sure you have all this, all these things, so that your business looks really attractive. It's, I kind of think of it like you know, like should you remodel your house before you sell it? Like, yeah, it's like the, if you remodel it, the chances that you're going to get a higher price and a quicker buyer is very high. Right, you don't have to have it in order to sell your house, but it does make the prospects of a sale much higher and much more likely.

Josh Hall: 41:09

So yeah, and then I was also thinking, when it comes to doing anything that basically adds more value, to get ready to sell, I feel like if there's, I feel almost feel like if there's anything you can do to help that value and also just make sure you don't get ripped off, it's huge. I've been watching Shark Tank more and more and I noticed like they always ask, especially with inventions, about patents and if somebody does not have something that is patented or patented, that's a big risk for an investor because like someone could rip this off and it could be worth nothing totally. Um, that's a big risk for an investor because like someone could rip this off and it could be worth nothing, totally.

Ann Koppuzha: 41:49

So that's kind of how I view trademarks yeah, and that's true for yeah, and that's absolutely true for trademarks too, because if you don't own the brand like, then it's hard. You can't really expand into all the different categories you need. I work with a lot of like e-commerce entrepreneurs and they absolutely need a brand. They they literally need to file a trademark in order to be on amazon brand registry, um, and so it's really important in growing your business yeah, that makes sense.

Josh Hall: 42:15

Is there anything before we get ready to wrap this up here, and is there anything that is like glaringly not talked about, that we haven't covered?

Ann Koppuzha: 42:23

um, as far as, yeah, good so I I think designers are missing an incredible opportunity to both add value to your clients and to um how to have an upsell on your business.

Ann Koppuzha: 42:36

I think every designer should be offering their clients the opportunity to check the trick whether or not their name is infringing on any trademarks and that this is something that you can partner with a lawyer like me or another lawyer and you can offer the service to your client so that you were saying, hey, you're starting a business, you were starting, you were launching out with a name that is not your name.

Ann Koppuzha: 42:58

The first thing you should do is make sure that you could actually use this name, then it's not infringing on any trademark rights and therefore could actually use this need that it's not infringing on any trademark rights, um, and therefore, like, I can help you do that search, like, and you can partner with a lawyer to actually run that search and get a result, and so you can charge your client a couple hundred dollars up for it, and so that's an upsell opportunity for designers and it's a huge value add to clients like there. No one should be starting businesses in this country without running that kind of basic trademark search, and most people, quite frankly, are and designers are a great way to direct clients because they don't know that they should be running that search.

Josh Hall: 43:37

That's interesting, especially for those who are doing branding and web design.

Ann Koppuzha: 43:41

Yeah, I didn't think about that.

Josh Hall: 43:42

But just like how I recommend using Termageddon and just basically having that as a part of your ongoing services. I didn't think about that, but just like how I recommend using Termageddon and just basically having that as a part of your ongoing services. I didn't think about using yeah, like a trademark search and legal entity as a design service. That's really interesting.

Ann Koppuzha: 43:58

Yeah, it's both an upsell opportunity and an incredible way to add value. Like you always say, josh, like you want to be the Sherpa guiding your clients through this process, and so they're coming to you and saying, hey, I'm launching a business, I want branding and website design, great, awesome. Let me show you all the different parts about that. Like they don't know anything about SEO or copywriting or trademarks or anything, but you, as a designer, can really point them to the right resources.

Josh Hall: 44:20

Yeah, you look like heck of an expert and and a consultant, if you're like. Before we invest in the $5,000 branding package, I recommend that we do a little trademark search here. Maybe that could just be something to question. Maybe that'd be a good addition to a questionnaire which is is your brand trademarked and, if they, say have you run that by a lawyer? Yeah, because a lot of people are like yeah, absolutely.

Ann Koppuzha: 44:44

But like actually, have you done the search?

Josh Hall: 44:51

Oh no, employer. Yeah, a lot of people are like yeah, absolutely. But like actually, have you done the search? Oh no. So there we go. There's a great little, a little uh like tip that everyone could implement right now. Go into your contact form and ask it before get a quote form and say is your brand? Yeah, have you requested a trademark, yes or no?

Ann Koppuzha: 45:00

you don't have to do it in the contact form, because I don't want to add anything in the contact form that, like, would mess up this process, but in your intake form. Yeah, like after this client has signed. You know, ask them very clearly have you confirmed with a lawyer that your name is actually trademarkable, or is actually that you're, if you use your name?

Josh Hall: 45:20

yeah, there it is. So prime it for the upsell yeah, that's good and, again, it does kind of just give a little bit of weight to like designers being not just a pixel pusher, but like we're in it to help you in your business and the last thing we want to do is build your branding and build your website and then, oh, I have to take everything down and rebrand everything because somebody else has that name. Yeah, and there's a lot more than just switching out a logo by the way, with a brand and a trademark.

Ann Koppuzha: 45:47

And SEO right. You don't want to be a couple of years down the road and be like, oh God, you have to change your name Now. The SEO is really messed up and that takes months to fix right. You can't just change the SEO overnight to get that. You're going to face that traffic issue and that's why it's important to do this branding check early on that you're going to face that traffic issue and that's why it's important to do this like branding check early on.

Josh Hall: 46:07

That's fascinating. What about outside of the U S? Real quick, as we wrap this up, do they? Is it a whole different ball game getting something trademarked in Europe or Australia or wherever?

Ann Koppuzha: 46:17

I'm not I'm not an expert in sort of the international trademark system and so I can't really speak to that. I do know that a lot of these types of businesses do want an American trademark, because that's where the gold standard and that's where a lot of customers are coming from, whether you are in Europe or Australia, and so it's very helpful to have an American and literally I just did one yesterday for a Canadian company for this exact reason, because their customers are American, so they want an American trademark.

Ann Koppuzha: 46:43

So, if you're operating with American clients, you'll want an American trademark.

Josh Hall: 46:48

Very cool, interesting. Well, anne, as always, I always learn a lot talking with you and, as you mentioned, like with trademarks, it can seem like something that would be pretty simple, but once you get into it it's like, oh no, there's a lot more to this than anyone thought. So, yeah, I definitely appreciate you, as always being in my corner. I continue to refer you out to folks. Thank, you.

Josh Hall: 47:09

I think you really are in a sweet spot. So, yeah, I have one final question for you. But where should people go to connect with you, even if they just have some trademark questions or legal questions?

Ann Koppuzha: 47:21

Yeah, the best ways to connect with me is you can follow me on Instagram at powerhouselegal, and then you can always shoot me an email at ann at powerhouse-legalcom. Also have tons of free resources. I have a guide of like three non-obvious clauses to add to your web design contracts and that's like a freebie. That I have on my website and I'll give Josh the link so you can link it in the show notes.

Ann Koppuzha: 47:49

But that's a great guide because the contracts web centers will want these sort of provisions in their contracts in order to make them shore them up to make sure that they're really great for marketing and that they really protect you.

Josh Hall: 48:00

Yeah, and I would recommend everyone going back to our previous interview. That was episode 254 on contracts, copyrights, and we even talked about tax setups there too. So that's still something I refer back to quite a bit. So, as always, and just a wealth of information and help you are. Final question what? What is your favorite legal work for creatives If? If you had to choose to help with, like a tax structure setup or legal stuff, like you help with shannon, uh or or trademarks, what is your favorite of the suite of services that you offer creatives?

Ann Koppuzha: 48:35

I kind of like doing it all. I like working with different people on different um on different issues. I think the trademarks doing the trademark brand name check, is such an easy thing for designers and a great opportunity for them to upsell and look like you're the expert in this, because you are, and so being able to support designers in that process would be super cool and that's why I'm. That's why, after this experience with my cousin, I really want to like make sure other designers know hey, this is an upsell opportunity for you and a way for you to look real good to my clients well, let me tell you there's nothing cooler than adding the old option to trademark tm next to a logo either.

Josh Hall: 49:16

Uh, it's pretty fun. I meant to ask you this earlier can somebody add tm to their logo even if they haven't trademarked it yet, and they're just, you know, considering trademarking?

Ann Koppuzha: 49:25

It doesn't really do anything like it. It sort of like gives other people information that you are in the process of trademarking, but it's neither here nor there. Cool, it's really the uses, but the USPQ is looking for Gotcha Awesome.

Josh Hall: 49:38

And, as always, thank you for your time. We'll have all this linked in the show notes and then, gosh, keep on doing what you're doing. You are of so much value to us who don't want to have anything to do with the legalities, so I understand that. Thank you, thanks, josh, thank you for your service. You know people say that Thank you for your service when they're in the military. I say and thank you for your service.

Ann Koppuzha: 49:58

Anytime.

Josh Hall: 50:01

So again, a huge thanks to Anne, so excited to get the news recently that Web Designer Pro is officially trademarked. So you will be seeing the little copyright R symbol on the logo here soon and again. Whether you are interested in this now or just want to know what the process looks like for moving forward, I really hope this conversation helps. You can go to joshhallco slash 398 to get all the links and the resources. That will have a full transcription and all the links to connect with Ann as well. So head over there, connect with Ann If you have any legal service issues or anything when it comes to trademarks or anything where you just don't have a lawyer to turn to. But you want to have somebody in your corner who knows the industry.

Josh Hall: 50:44

Ann is who I use and who I recommend. So again, joshhallco slash 398 to connect and get all the resources there. So cheers, friends, and a big thanks to Anne again for helping me. Trademark Web Designer Pro. I hope she helps you as well and I hope this conversation helps you as you look to build a business that you may want to sell or just have pure ownership of. Stay subscribed, friends. Some other good episodes are coming very, very soon, like some really good ones, so make sure you subscribe. Cheers.