404 - Web Designer Pro turns 5 (Q&A with Josh & Members)

Happy 5th Birthday Web Designer Pro® 🥳

What started on November 4th, 2020, as a small coaching community for 30+ of my top course students has become a leader in the web design business-coaching space and one of Circle's most highly engaged communities.

It's a testament to the AMAZING members who show up every week to help, support, and encourage each other, as web designers at all stages, to grow their web businesses together.

It's an honor to lead this thing, and I can safely say – 5 years in and we're just getting going!🎉

This special edition podcast episode is the replay from our recent live Q&A with Coaching Tier members of Pro, celebrating the milestone. Many of whom are original founding members who’ve been in since day one!

Questions range from community building, if I miss designing websites for clients, podcasting, offers/pricing, how to do YouTube to get clients and much more.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/wdp5

Chapters

• 0:00 Member Gratitude And Origin Stories
• 2:58 Why Share The Five-Year Group Call
• 4:20 Launching The Web Design Club To Pro
• 5:30 Why Build A Community And Membership
• 7:20 The Hardest Part: Handling Churn
• 10:00 A Week In The Life Of A Community Builder
• 14:30 Keeping A Podcast Consistent And Sustainable
• 18:10 Systems, Batching, And Guest Workflow
• 21:10 Course Creation Tips And Smart Use Of AI
• 24:00 Pivots: From Courses To Membership First
• 27:15 What’s Missed From Client Work And What’s Not
• 31:05 Managing Notifications And Access Boundaries
• 35:05 Beating Imposter Syndrome With Proof Of Work
• 39:20 Staying Current On Tools And Trends
• 42:45 The Future Of Community And Healthy Size
• 47:30 Recognition, Leadership, And Member Impact
• 50:00 Which Is Harder: Agency Or Community
• 54:00 Support Systems, Energy, And Fit
• 57:15 Family Perspective And Real-Life Balance
• 1:01:00 Pricing A Quick Accessibility Boost
• 1:03:30 Closing Reflections And Member Tributes

Transcript

Tamara Salchert: 0:00

Josh, thank you so much for creating Pro. I like along with other people listening to the podcast. Like I remember telling you this forever ago when I jumped on, but like I was so like down in the like dumps because of when I started my business. I'm like, there's no other web designers that understand, like, you know, because you just, it's like it can be such a you know very specific thing and to have other people speak into it. And then like I remember listening to your podcast and like, oh my gosh, this is like the best. And it just spoke everything that I was struggling with with contracts and grants and just like all the things that you touched on. It was like a godsend. So thank you again for like starting the community. It's it's been a blessing.

Marc Hyde: 0:40

I'll say, man, it's it's wild how it went from just an online community that gave me the guts to go do something cool. But like these are my friends now. Like, I mean, let's be honest. Like, Ben, um, we we gotta DM a little bit more, but like, you know, I find myself DMing with Michelle and with Ben and like questions for Lisa, and like it's just one of these things where it's like, like, it these are my people. And like, even when Beth knew that pro con was coming up, like it's already in the calendar. Like, it's just it's happening because you know, these are my people, these are this is where I love to be. And, you know, it's a lonely world and we were made for community, and you just happen to facilitate that, bro. So thank you.

Michelle Bourbonniere: 1:15

Um, I don't think that you guys understand that five years ago when you started Web Designer Pro, I had barely started my business, right? Like I had been working for friends at that point, um, and just a couple people locally. And so, like, really truly, Web Designer Pro really kicked off my whole business. I mean, I got into SEO, I started doing all that stuff, and like, same with Mark. Like, these people are my friends now, and like I'm just a solo printer, and I don't ever intend to be more than a solo printer. And so this is just so huge for me because there are people that want to hear me talk about SEO and like that is a rare thing. And so it's lovely to be here. And I just to say, like, this has really made my business in the last five years, and yeah, just can't wait for the next five.

Josh Hall: 1:55

Who you just heard from there are a few members of my community, Web Designer Pro. And in this special edition podcast episode, I'm gonna share with you the recent group call we had celebrating five years of Web Designer Pro. So, what I did is instead of our typical uh weekly coaching call for all coaching tier members of Pro, I actually opened this up to do a live group call/slash QA session to talk all about Web Designer Pro, what I've learned and building it as a community builder, but also what members collectively have learned and how we've learned from each other to help grow each other's web design businesses. A lot of the questions do revolve around what I've learned in being a community builder, but a lot of them also derail a little bit, get into the podcast here. We get into some pricing, we get into some services, and other things are gonna help you in your business as well. So big thanks to everyone who joined this call live. Again, these are coaching tier members of Web Designer Pro, and they've graciously allowed me to repurpose this for you. And it goes without saying, if you've been on the fence, this is a glimpse into the awesomeness of Web Designer Pro and the incredible people that are waiting to be your friend as well and to help you grow your web design business. So I'd encourage you to jump on in. There's more details below to jump into Web Designer Pro. I hope to see you there. You can always start at the community tier, and then when you're ready, you can jump up and join these folks on the coaching tier when you're ready to have direct access to me for DM24-7 coaching and our weekly coaching calls. And without further ado, here is our little celebration group call QA session about Web Designer Pro turning five. We'll start out with Brian, who wanted to know how did Lisa become a first member? So, for those who don't know, if you're a newer member, this actually started originally as the Web Design Club. So it was not Web Designer Pro in its initial launch. It was called the Web Design Club. And it was just mainly for the students who had been through my one-off courses prior to that, which was Lisa, April, Alexis, and a few others here. Um, so when I launched the web design club, we did I basically opened it up to just students at first. And it was October of 22 when I said, hey, if you're interested, um, you know, I'm gonna launch this membership. It's gonna be a chance for us to do coaching and and community and build a community. And yeah, Lisa, Alexis, April, Sandra, Michelle, um, Christian, a lot of you guys here have have been we're in that first wave. So that's how Lisa was was one of the first. Yep. Austin would like to know what inspired you to create a community. So um a lot of it was with doing courses. For anyone who does courses, I think what you'll find is it's awesome. But unless you're getting testimonials proactively, you really don't see the results of people going through your courses. Like when you're a web designer, you see results of your clients because you're re-engaging with them and hopefully they're on your maintenance plan and your care plan or your growth plans, and you're probably getting like real-time feedback. But when you have a digital product, you really don't know what result is happening unless you're, you know, really proactively asking them about it. So that was a big part of it was, and I'm a community builder at heart. I have been since I was in school. Like I can remember building some semblance of community even in school. So I knew I wanted to bring that into this world and to see results, to get to know my students better and to help them more on a deeper level. Um, and recurring revenue. So it was two birds, uh, two birds and one stone, recurring revenue. And yeah, just community. I wanted to, I didn't want to just make something and hope it's going well for people. I really wanted that real-time feedback and wanted to build a community. And I had no and I really didn't know what it was going to become. Uh, but here we are five years later, and I feel like in a lot of ways, we're just getting started, which is super exciting. So, yeah, lots, lots to the original um impetus of it, but for sure, Austin, that was that was a big part. And if you guys have any follow-up questions, let me know because I can I can bring you up here too if you want to ask a question live. Awesome. Let's go to Michelle who wants to know. Oh, here we go. Let me spotlight Michelle's. What's the hardest part of running Web Designer Pro? Ooh. I think I'll be honest, the hardest part is when someone leaves. That is the hardest part, especially when it's somebody who is like, oh, like there have been some members who I'm like, oh, I'm so bummed. I know it's a membership. Anytime you have a subscription, you guys know, like, if you have a subscription service, you're going to have churn. People are going to leave. And with a membership, I had to learn very early on to not take it personally because Web Designer Pro is my baby. And I'm sure you guys see it too. Like when somebody leaves, it's like, oh man, they're not in pro anymore. What a bummer. It does it because pro is so personal, it feels personal when people leave, just like it feels personal when they join, and I'm fired up. So that was the hardest part is like making sure I don't take it uh personally. Michelle, do you want to add any? Do you have a follow-up to that at all?

Michelle Bourbonniere: 7:20

Um No, I was just asking you a hard question.

Josh Hall: 7:24

No, it's but it's true.

Michelle Bourbonniere: 7:26

Like I agree that like when you like, I think this community has such a closeness to them that when you go to tag somebody and they're not there anymore, you're like, oh no, where did you go? Um, and so yeah, it is it is sort of sad. Um, but I think that that's also, I think, because I mean you have to pay to be here. Um, and I think that that's what brings the level of the community up, right? Like Facebook, no one ever leaves, but also the quality is no good. And we're here, like people sometimes do have to leave. That's fine. Like that's life. And some of them come back, and then it's just a big party.

Josh Hall: 7:55

That's the biggie, is when they come back, which is really exciting. Because they're, and I understand, like sometimes life happens. You got you got to step out of whether it's down revenue or whether you're just in a season where you're just not gonna be able to be active for a while. Like, I totally understand that. We just had Carol who rejoined after a small stint out. Like, that's what's even more exciting is when someone rejoins. And that's a testament to our community when somebody leaves and says, Ah, I miss it so much. Because I do get those DMs from people who say, like, I miss pro, I can't wait to come back. So it's a testament of trust for keeping it going. Let's do this guy. I like that. I like um when I answer a question, I think I'll bring you up too. That way we can riff on it for a few minutes if that works for you guys. Um, that way we can make this a little interactive. That way it's not just a QA. Let's go to Mark real quick. Uh, Mark, so if you want to follow up with me on this, what's your daily, weekly rhythm look like since you're more as a coach and content creator and not a website designer? Yeah, that's a good one, Mark. Let me ask you, Mark, what do you think it looks like? What do you what do you uh imagine a week looks like? Well, granted, you know we're in a season right now with Bria's surgery recovery, uh, daily PT right now, but what do you think it looks like? What do you imagine a coach's schedule looks like?

Marc Hyde: 9:11

Mondays are my ties at the beach. Tuesdays are, well, I don't know, I don't know what Tuesday would be. Probably happy hour, probably happy hour. Then Wednesdays are probably just your Jack and Coke because you gotta have whiskey. No, I'm kidding. Um, but you know, so a lot of it is more, I know for you it's, you know, working on brand partnerships. I know it's podcasting, setting up guests, and the amount of time that takes, I know is nuts. Um, but it's just it's wild because like I feel like I don't have a set schedule, um, but I try to work within a set frame of hours, but I still have things I have to get done for clients. Um, but I almost picture your position as more of like a for forgive me for bringing this comparison in, but like that pastoral approach where it's like, you know, for pastors, Sunday is always coming. You're gonna walk up on stage and look like a fool if you're not ready. And so for you with your podcast, you know, your podcast is dropping every week. You're gonna look like a fool if you're not ready. But then throughout the rest of the week, it's you're building, you're dreaming, you're planning, you're connecting, you're growing, you're seeing what other people are doing so that way our community doesn't suck because you know, if we're stagnant, it's not gonna grow. So I feel like a lot of it is more of you um almost just diving in and see what other people are doing and doing well, and then just trying to set those conversations up.

Josh Hall: 10:24

Yeah, uh, you just answered it, Mark. I mean, that's exactly it.

Marc Hyde: 10:28

It's I mean that was my schedule back in the day.

Josh Hall: 10:30

You know what? I never thought about that, but it is a community builder and a pastor is eerily similar with a lot of the stuff you do and deal with uh because it's all communication, it's all building community, managing people. In some cases, it might be managing teams in several departments. Um, and of course, it depends on the level of a community builder. But yeah, no, you're totally right. I mean, uh the fact is, a lot of a lot of my work is seen with the podcasts and any tutorials I do and any content I push out, but a lot of it is not seen because it's in the DMs and it's a lot of connections and emails that are outside of Pro, which is what's really interesting. So uh I try to bring as much of that into the limelight as possible, especially when it's really good. And and you guys, I'm sure every one of you have probably heard from me at some point, and I've told you, like, oh, can you post that? Because it's so good. I don't want to just keep that in the DMs. So um, that's a lot of it, but I do stick to a schedule in the sense of generally Tuesdays and Thursdays are call days, and I don't really do that many calls right now. Um, and with the podcast, like right now I have interviews booked out through the rest of the year. So I might do a couple interviews early December, but I might throw some solo episodes to keep that going. Um, because I do try to bank those as much as possible to stay a month to six weeks out. Um, but yeah, that's really it's it's a matter of like standard call schedule, which I keep pretty light. And then apart from coaching and and the work of just being in the community, a lot of it is just running and managing my own projects, which can sometimes be really time intensive. Like right now, I just started on the new version of the SEO course. So I've learned, and as you guys have learned with your own businesses, you have to put a deadline on yourself. You have to be like a hard business manager to yourself to like you have to almost have to micromanage yourself to get it done. So um, all those things and more, Mark, you're spot on, man.

Marc Hyde: 12:31

So do you feel like you pull? I don't want to say a normal, because we don't live normal 40-hour work weeks, but do you feel like you still fall within that? Or is it more of you're able to still have what you preach with the freedom and lifestyle that you need for U and M?

Josh Hall: 12:45

Oh, it's unmatched. It's unmatched with actual time behind my desk. I mean, I'm probably like here 20 to 25 hours a week in my office. Um, I do often have my laptop. Like a lot of times, what I'll do is like we have our nighttime routine where I'll get Bria down. Like she falls asleep on me typically. So we'll do her little tube shake and then she'll fall asleep on me. And a lot of times I'll have my laptop and I'll pop into Pro for maybe a half an hour or I'll do something. So there are like little spurts like that. Um, and then even like when Drex was a newborn, sometimes I would take him for a drive, go get coffee, and then bring my laptop, and then we'd sit out in front of Target and I would work for half an hour, 45 minutes with a coffee. So it is a lot like that. It's pretty like all over. Um, so that that is kind of how I how I run it. Um, but yeah, I still very I mean, as you guys all know, it's very hard to turn it off mentally, but time behind the computer is well under 30 to 35 hours per week, you typically, unless it's like a busy season or a launch or something like that.

Marc Hyde: 13:46

And that's awesome. Good for you, bro.

Josh Hall: 13:48

Well, thanks, Mark. Well, look, it's just it makes it easy too when I love it. Like it really, it's not like I do have the different kind of work. There's like FERC, there's you know, there's different nerds like FERC is fun work, so I'll tell M, like, I got some fun work going on. Like, this is fun work. This I'm not gonna leave this being drained, like, oh god, that was a long call. No, I'm gonna be pumped up for the rest of the day. Uh, good stuff, guys. Let's get to some more great questions here. Um, Devorah wanted to know what has helped you keep your podcast going for so long. Great question, Deborah. Um, Devorah, I've been saying Deborah for so long. I think the the there's a few things to it. Number one, I love it. I just love having conversations with web professionals and industry experts and and even just people who are early on. I mean, a lot of pros here who have joined and just sharing what works. It's so I love it. I generally do love just talking to people about it. The other aspect is it is the number one driver for Web Designer Pro. So it's my number one marketing engine. So um there it would be like the stupidest thing in the world for me to to not keep my podcast going strong because number one, I love it. And number two, it's the biggest part of uh the marketing for my business. Um any follow-up questions on that, Divora? Any anything else you want to know with the podcast?

Devorah Epstein: 15:09

No, that was all. I've just seen so many people start a podcast and then not be able to keep up with it after a couple of years. So you've been I've been listening to you every week for a lot of years. So I'm just curious like how you do that.

Josh Hall: 15:23

Oh, that's awesome. I mean, a lot of it, you're right. Like the the the um the stats are staggering with how many people drop a podcast within the first couple months. It's it's something like I think less than five percent of podcasts continue on past 20 episodes. So um it is not for the faint of heart for sure, especially when it's an interview show and you're scheduling. But what one thing I've learned is if you really, really prepare and build up to something that's going to be ongoing long term, you got to set yourself up for success. And that's what I did with the podcast is and I learned this, I don't know if it was a framework or something, but basically the idea is if it's if you're gonna commit to something for a long time, don't rush into it. But if it's like a one-off service that you're gonna do briefly, sure, like you can get going pretty quick. But I thought about the podcast for a year and I went through Pat Flynn's Power Up Podcasting course, which helped a lot. And then I had five episodes ready to go out of the out of the park, like out of the gate. And and it does help that I love it. I do think some people start a podcast just because they think they should, but if you don't love it, it ain't gonna go well. So, yeah, great question. That's really that's from the outset, you know. I I think I tried to do the work to make sure I was set up to make sure I could do it sustainably. And I have killer systems with it to where now literally all I do for the podcast is I schedule an interview. Um, I have a little I'll show it to you guys real quick if you want to see it. I'll share my screen here. Some of you guys who who have been uh on the podcast as guests have seen this, but instead of like overloading the guests with like all these details, I send them to this page. Actually, I'll put this in the chat. Um just don't book an interview, guys, unless I ask you. Um but if you're curious, this is my this is my booking page. And this is what I send to potential guests. And yeah, basically just walks them through here's where to schedule a call. Uh, and then I just give them some I like some some tech tips. Uh and you can see here, like this is my call schedule. So all I have available is a couple in November, Tuesdays and Thursdays. So uh I practice what I preach, as Mark said. Um, those are the only times you could book a, you know, unless it's like if somebody absolutely can't make that, I will do a call on a Thursday or Friday occasionally. Then I have a little review your setup situation here, and then I just let them know that we use Riverside. And then here is the form where I collect their guest information, which then goes to Chris, my VA. And then once I record the interview, it's in Riverside, and I have very little post-production on my end. I'll I'll write up the show notes for it, and then um I'll figure out what's clip I want to use via Riverside, which is where we record it, and that's it. That's it for me, apart from scheduling it. Everyone else, Chris takes care of the graphics and the distribution, and we go from there. So good to see you, Chris.

Devorah Epstein: 18:34

How far do you batch them now?

Josh Hall: 18:37

What's that? Defor, I'm sorry.

Devorah Epstein: 18:39

How far do you batch them out now?

Josh Hall: 18:42

I try to stay about four to six weeks. So let's do this live. I'll show you. Here's my podcast schedule. Super fancy using Google Sheets. So right now we're recording this right now. So I'll get this ready for next week. And then I've got three already recorded through December, and then I'm gonna be doing a couple QA. Actually, I have a couple podcast interviews later this month that will fill up the next two, and then I'll probably do a solo episode, so that'll be there the rest of this year. So I'm generally about a month out in an ideal world. I am um two like six weeks out.

unknown: 19:24

Yeah.

Josh Hall: 19:25

Oh, yeah. Alexia says, ooh, Jay Class. Yeah, Jay and I had a great conversation that's gonna be live here in a couple weeks. So good stuff. Great questions, though, Devore. Thanks for that. I really appreciate that. I'm so glad you've been listening. When did you start listening? Do you remember about when you started listening?

Devorah Epstein: 19:41

I think a couple months before I joined Pro, so maybe 2022.

Josh Hall: 19:50

Okay, awesome. Wow. Well, it's an honor. It's an honor to be for you to listen that long. So thank you. Awesome, guys. Let's get to some more questions. Some really good ones are coming through, so I'll make sure we get all of them here. Um, Louise said, I'm getting into course creation. Do you have any tips or AI tools used to streamline the process? So, Louise, what I would recommend doing actually the process. So I did a little behind the scenes um on how I create a course years ago. I'll put this in the chat. It is literally still what I do. Um, but one thing I will say for you, Louise, is it really depends on like the course creation process, I think depends on how the the course literally looks. Like, is it more written or is it more video? I will say if you get super edited on course videos, it's gonna take forever. So I really try to prepare as much as you can before recording the actual lesson to avoid a bunch of post-production because that's where courses can get out of control. Um, I'll find this. Do you have any additional follow-up questions on that, Louise? AI tools, all I've been doing, like on the last course, the DNS course, I just had the lessons and wrote it, and then I would double check things with Chat GPT, or if I was like, what is this thing with a CDN? I would ask ChatGPT to help me, you know, figure, fill in, basically fill in the gaps. But I do not rely on AI to write an outline for a course. I I really like to think like how I want to learn is how I'm gonna teach.

Louise Sims: 21:26

Yeah, I've I've done that with like my outlines. I've just put it in and said, is there anything you think I've missed? And when it comes up with some stupid suggestion, I just ignore it because I'm like, no, that's not that's not relevant. Thanks, chat. Um, but yeah, no, I think mine are like how-tos, a bit like yours. So it is trying to keep it like without too much editing afterwards because I have done courses a couple of years ago and I want to make them, I want to make these much easier to complete alongside everything else, really.

Josh Hall: 21:57

Yeah, that's the way to go. Um, so it's a longer video, but I did just post in the chat the um the video on my course creation process, which is kind of like a documentary style on how I do it. But again, it kind of depends on the size of the course, I think, for you. Um, the biggest thing to remember if you do a course is if you you really got to have the transformation and the result in mind throughout the entire process. And because that's gonna dictate how long the lessons are, how many lessons you're gonna have, the structure, the assets, the downloads. Um so have that in mind. And I would just remember like think about like make it a guide and try to make it as fun as you can. Like keep people engaged per lesson. Otherwise, you know, we're all really busy. It can be so easy to drift off or get bored and quick wins, quick wins per lesson is another tip I would try to recommend going for.

Louise Sims: 22:48

Yeah, thank you.

Josh Hall: 22:50

Heck yeah. Well, I'm pumped for you, Louise. Keep me posted on that. I can't wait to hear about it. Awesome, guys. Let's give back some questions. Great ones here. Um, Tamara, what is one of the hardest but maybe good lessons you've learned in business as a whole? All right. I tell you what, Tamara, give me a category because I could go, you know, me, this could go a lot of different directions. Is there a particular category of lessons learned you're interested in?

Tamara Salchert: 23:17

Oh gosh, I don't know if there's a specific category. I just think, you know, the process of, you know, starting the whole pro community, but even before that, just like where you've had to push yourself, you know, in certain areas that if you want to take in that step, would it be where it is today? Kind of thing, I guess is kind of what I'm thinking.

Josh Hall: 23:34

Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's good.

Tamara Salchert: 23:36

Yeah.

Josh Hall: 23:36

Actually, yeah, probably like when we rebranded to pro and when it went from web design club to Web Designer Pro, that pivot season. I've been very public about going from a for a curse, a courses first business to a membership first business. Um, yeah, I mean, it was it was hard. It was a hard transition. I underestimated the the slow compounding nature of a membership versus larger one-off sales with courses. And when I essentially turned off courses, or I stopped promoting one-off courses and went Web Designer Pro first. Um, Web Designer Pro went like this. The the build was slow and steady, but my course sales dropped almost completely overnight. So it was like, I mean, it was uh it was a painful pivot. Yeah. But I just kept on reminding myself that like this is working. And if it works with one person, it works with two, it works with five, it'll work with 10, it'll work with a hundred. So that was one of the hardest and most important lessons was like, I have a product that works, and it's very hard to shift and pivot like that. But if I know it works and I and I feel like it's what I want to do, and that gut feeling says, like, this is where I think the business should go. I think there's a lot of power in that for any of us who follow our gut.

Tamara Salchert: 24:57

So I think it's like, you know, in those moments as your business when you're making those like decisions that will pivot the business pretty substantially, and you're kind of like, Did I just start my whole business on fire? Or is it and sometimes it's that slow progression where you know it's going somewhere, but um, but then you have wonderful friends and other, you know, business owners that can speak into your life. But yeah, just pretty much my question, and thank you for answering it was pretty much just that.

Josh Hall: 25:22

So yeah, that's no, that's a great question. And honestly, I mean, I think back to 2023 when that was really tough. I was, I mean, I could the core people around me were huge. Jason Shannon, uh, my mastermind group, um, Tim Streifler is a close colleague of mine who runs Divi Life. Uh, we've talked a lot through that period. Like, there are there were like a few folks who were not the it's in the exact same position, but knew the course world slash product world slash coaching world, and I was getting validation and real-time feedback that really helped. So, and that's one reason we have Pro is when you guys are going through pivots or tough times, you have a support system to lean on. So, yeah, that was huge.

Tamara Salchert: 26:08

Thank you.

Josh Hall: 26:09

Awesome. Well, thank you, Tamara. Gosh, that's good questions, guys. Let's go. Oh, April with a good one. Uh, what do you miss from being a web designer? And what are you glad you don't have to do anymore? I do miss my networking group. I was actually just thinking about this recently because um I'll uh cats out of the bag. One of our speakers for ProCon 2026 is actually my financial advisor, who was a founding member of my networking group as well. We were we were in a group together for eight years and she's freaking awesome. And I'm like, I miss Julie. I miss meeting with her every week, and I miss some of the other folks. Uh I don't miss everybody, but I do miss some of the folks, and I do miss that like weekly routine of every Friday morning, I'm up and it's networking group time. So I do miss that. Um, I also do miss like a good old I miss um a good sales meeting with good notes and like being fired up by like, ooh, I think I can help this client. Like, I'm really excited about this. And you know, like not all meetings go like that, but I do like I remember vividly leaving the retina group, which is a surgical place in Columbus, and like my notes were slick. I I'm pretty sure they're moving forward, and I was like, ooh, this is gonna be this is this could be awesome. So I do miss that feeling. Um, what I don't miss is contact collection. And um I don't miss when there's misaligned expectations, which both of those things, you know, I'm trying to help you guys as much as possible with getting clear on both of those. But um anytime there is a client service provider relationship, especially when it's creative, there are you know a little bit of back and forth, and like you really need to like work on aligning expectations. But in a way, I'm actually doing that now with sponsors and and the partners I'm working with. When I'm talking with 17 hats and with Circle and some other tools I use and trust, like I have a creative vision idea, but they have budgets and they have a creative vision and idea. So we're kind of meeting in the mid in the middle. So I still do some of that, but um yeah, definitely don't miss that aspect. Any follow-up on that, April? And sorry, guys, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, I know you guys are probably multitasking and working.

April Ray: 28:36

So no, I was trying to find my mouse. Um, it was on my other screen. No, um that's that's kind of what I figured, you know, it's just there's there's good and bad to everything. And so, yeah, no, the content collection and um and uh the misaligned expectations. And I find anytime I don't stick to the processes and boundaries that I have in place, that's when things go awry. And you you taught me a long time ago that you can give people, you know, grace and stuff, but they kind of have to earn it first. Like if I have a really good client that she's always been great and she's like, hey, I'm sorry, we need to reschedule this or do what whatever. I'm way more likely to let her than like a new client who I'm already like not sure about. I'm like, no, we need to do it this way because otherwise it's just gonna go off the rails. I've seen it multiple times. So yeah, uh, no, I I agree on both of those. And yeah, no, I I'm with you on the feeling of a good sales caller. You're like, this is gonna be good.

Josh Hall: 29:34

Yeah, or you're like, oh god, I got a good idea on this. I've already got a vision in my head. Yeah, no, you're totally right, April. That's a I'm so glad you brought that up. You had a lot of validation on that about earning, what did you say?

April Ray: 29:47

Earning earning grace, earning um, you know, kind of letting those boundaries slide a little bit, but you kind of have to earn it first because yeah, otherwise, like anytime I've letting let clients. Out off the rails, then it just the whole project gets messed up.

Josh Hall: 30:04

So true. Especially with call like calls or texts. It's like, okay, I've been working with this client for a decade. They're awesome. You know, this isn't normal for them. But yeah, that that new client that's already a little needy, if they call you on a Friday night and you answer, you just set the precedent for them to walk all over you. Yeah.

April Ray: 30:22

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So no good answers.

Josh Hall: 30:26

Good stuff, April. Hope you and Justin had fun on vacation. Was it last week? A couple weeks ago?

April Ray: 30:31

Um, oh no, it was at the beginning of the month. The kids have fall break. So but it was it was super, super fun. Uh we just love going down to Orange Beach, as I know you guys do too.

Josh Hall: 30:40

So I know we need like double date, like double family date this thing up because I know we're never down there at the same time.

April Ray: 30:46

Although when we first went down there, I asked you a ton of questions like what do we need to do? Like, where do we need to go? And all this stuff. So, anyways, now we now we've got it down to a fine art.

Josh Hall: 30:53

Yes, vacation coaching is only something I do to my qualified members as well. So I will share all the hot spots in Orange Beach. Actually, you you and Justin and me and him could not be trusted with childcare on vacation, so it's probably best we keep it separated.

April Ray: 31:08

Oh no, I know. It'll be fun though.

Josh Hall: 31:10

Is Justin coming? Is he planning on coming to ProCon next year?

April Ray: 31:13

Yes, he's really excited.

Josh Hall: 31:15

He's really excited.

April Ray: 31:16

So also, uh, just just a funny thing. Um, Justin, I may have already told you this, but Justin and I did this uh like thing where you check off like which states you visited and which ones you haven't. And Justin was kind of reading them off, and he's like, Ohio. I'm like, I've never been to Ohio. He's like, Yes, you have, it's right there. I'm like, no, but I've never been to Ohio. So that Ohio is my bucket list item, so we're checking that off.

Josh Hall: 31:40

What a way to do it. Well, we're gonna set the bar high because it's gonna be freaking awesome again. Um side story for those who don't know, April and I uh we met up at WordCamp in 23, and her her husband Justin like drilled me and was like, why does she need a web design business coach? Like, just straight up ask me. So it's actually a good, like, oh, I had to be on the spot and answer that. But it did give me like a in a way, I needed that question because it was like, because a regular business coach doesn't know what web designers go through. And in most industries are so different from web design because there's such a creative element to it. Same could be said for photographers and other arts like video and and music and stuff like that. But I do think it's important to have a business, I mean, potentially a business coach that's outside your industry because they can help, but also one that understands content collection and DNS struggles and uh all you know, builder upgrades, all those different things.

April Ray: 32:44

Yeah, no, he uh I was embarrassed that he did that. But also, that was at like midnight after the um 80s bar incident.

Josh Hall: 32:53

So yeah, we're a good time, but hey, that's when the honest questions comes out, come out. So uh heck yeah. No, tell I tell him I I took no offense. It was a good uh it was a good it kept me fresh.

Speaker 6: 33:05

Yeah.

Josh Hall: 33:06

Awesome, April. I'm pumped to see you guys here, and uh well, we've got to wait six months, but it'll go fast.

April Ray: 33:10

So same, same, yeah. It's gonna be great.

Josh Hall: 33:12

By the way, planning on doing first round of tickets here soon, like probably this month. So I'll let you guys know as soon as we get the final details together for a first round of tickets. Awesome, guys. Let's get to some more questions. And Lisa will bring you up here too. I know you've had your hand raised. Um, so let's tell you what, we'll get through a few questions and then Lisa, if you're good on time, let me know if you need to leave early at any point, Lisa, and I'll bring you up sooner than later because I know you've had your hand up. Um, let's go to Liz, who asks, how do you manage a gazillion notifications without getting glued to your phone, thinking about balance between people demanding your attention and work life? Uh, I think what helps for me, Liz, is I am a AIM a no notifications guy. Like I don't even have notifications on circle, uh, at least on my phone. I do check in on my phone, but I have found myself needing to almost stop that because what happens is I'll see something, and if I don't respond to it, I'll forget about it by the time I get to my computer later or the next day. So that's been the biggie. But I I will say this, listen, I think this goes for anyone who's managing and helping clients with social media is social media is such a like secondary thing to me. Like, pro is the priority. I generally always log into pro first and try to get to as many questions and DMs as I can before going elsewhere. So that's really it. I just don't I just don't have any notifications on. Any follow-up on that, Liz?

Liz Jimenez Agudelo: 34:49

No, I think I think that's refreshing, and I think that people need to hear that. So often these are conversations that I have with clients as well about like managing expectations with social media and like with people or communities. Like I've run online communities before, and it can be like life-consuming if you let it. And so good for you. I think it's great, and I think it's great for people to hear it's okay to turn off your notifications, and it's okay to make people wait for a response, and it's okay to kind of cap your time on that because otherwise it can kind of take over, and then it's not necessarily an income-producing activity, right? Like it can be, but not always, not all notifications are equally important.

Josh Hall: 35:32

Well said, yeah, and kind of the April's point of like the earning, the the priority or communication for pro, it's like the level of hierarchy is DM from coaching members. Like you guys, I really try hard to get within 24 hours weekdays. It's very rare that I go past that. Sometimes 48 if it's like a Friday to Monday, but generally, you know, that day I try hard to do that. The next hierarchy is uh mentions. So like if somebody mentions me in a post, I'll get to that. And then it's like scanning the forum and general questions or some of the chat spaces. So, and then one thing with social media for anyone who has like a coaching program or is balancing any sort of even if it's like a customer community or custom customer membership, is if you make yourself super available on social media, it gives less incentive for them to join coaching or join your community or membership. So, just a heads up on that. I'm actually really glad that I sold my Facebook group because for those who don't know, I built up the the Divi Web Designers group to like 20k plus people. It's still huge, it's still a great group. But one of the reasons I didn't really recognize this initially, but one of the reasons I'm glad I sold that to Tim Streifler with Divi Life. And one of the reasons I'm glad I stepped back from that is I think if I was super active in Divi Web Designers, people might be like, well, why pay for pro when I can just talk to Josh and this free Facebook group? So I think, and I I would relay that to clients too, who are doing memberships. Like, you gotta make sure you if somebody's paying for access to you, it needs to be a very clear reason why. And you gotta watch your availability in other channels. So I think that helps too, Liz. Is like I'm just not that worried about Instagram notifications or LinkedIn or Facebook as much. Like those are, you know, it's cool. I love seeing likes on posts, and I do enjoy uh DMing some people, especially when it comes to people who are in curious about pro or maybe former members who are thinking about rejoining. But yeah, it's secondary for sure. Great question, though, guys. Oh, these questions are great. All right, let's get to some more here because I there's some good ones coming through. Um Megan. And then Jude is up next. And then Lisa, let me know how you're doing on time. We'll make sure we get you up here to chat as well. Um, thinking about podcasts, says Megan. Did it take you time before you stopped feeling like an imposter, or were your YouTube videos first for you? I'm asking because I think the thing that stops me from posting on social or starting a YouTube channel is thinking, why would anyone care to follow or watch what I have to say? Yeah. So Megan, um, in my case, it was YouTube. The YouTube videos came first. And what was different from my YouTube channel back in 2019 and then my um podcast is that my podcast was much more business focused, whereas the YouTube channels or the YouTube channel started as tutorial videos. So, what did help me with imposter syndrome was in the case of my YouTube channel, I just showed literally what I was doing. Were there better ways to do it? Sure. Were people better coders? Sure. But it worked for me. So literally, it was an easy, it was an easy thing to get over imposter syndrome because I was like, I'm not an imposter in this case because like this is actually what I do. Like this is what it were, this is what worked. Same thing with the business stuff. It's like I didn't need to feel imposter syndrome about web design pricing or proposal process or you know, anything I teach in the business course because it's what I did. Like I basically earned the right, because I worked my ass off for a decade as a web designer, to not feel like an imposter because I did it. Like I already've made, you know, multiple six figures with my web design business. So I knew it worked. So I think for anyone, even if you're early on, I think the thing to remember is um don't create content on what you're like unsure of or what you think you should create content on. Just create content on what you do. And Megan, you can come up if you want to follow up on this. But like if you help one of your clients grow and they get more sales or contact form submissions or consultations booked through the website, do content on that because there's no need to feel imposter syndrome because you did it. Like you literally did it. So I hope that helps.

Megan Fletcher: 40:02

Yeah, I think one of the things, because when you were talking about podcasts, it's just the reason that you've done it for so long is it's just something you really enjoy doing too. And for me, like I've always really enjoyed just recording my like sewing or recording myself creating things, like it's you know, outside of like work stuff, like just that's why I've always thought YouTube would be fun. Like I've always wanted to try doing that, and so that was but I'm just getting myself behind the camera, I just it just feels really like uncomfortable for me, right? Because I've never really done it much, and so just getting over that like a self-deprecating mentality of like thinking like I why would anyone or maybe I'm not good at it, why would anyone care to watch it type mentality of just trying something new?

Josh Hall: 40:55

How much have you made in your first couple years to start, Megan? I mean, like you're you're on track to potentially do like you're building a six-figure business, fair to say, right?

Megan Fletcher: 41:08

Yeah, I think this year I'm not gonna hit that, but I I'm like this close to at least doubling last year's, which is really cool.

Josh Hall: 41:17

So the reason I framed it like that is how many web designers would kill to be able to say, I'm gonna double my revenue from one year to the next, and I have the foundation for a hundred thousand dollar business. A lot of web designers would love to know what you did. So um, yeah, I mean, that's like that's all the proof you need right there. You've done it, like you're doing it. So um it's interesting because like a lot of like really good quote unquote developers or people who know a lot about one thing are terrible at communication, terrible at business. So it's like, yeah, maybe there's better, you know, developers or designers, but you are you're you're the full package, Megan. You're you're a designer, you're developing, you're a great communicator, you're helping your clients, you care, and you're doing it. So like that is something to be super proud of. Um, and that goes for everyone here, you know, especially those of you who are early on. The other thing I would say for content, just don't record, like if you do record yourself face to camera, just do like the little loom in the corner. Like you don't, it doesn't need to be, you know, the Megan show to start. Um, my tutorial videos, I wasn't even on camera for like the first, I think, year and a half or like a lot of them. They were all just screen recording. So if you like showing your work and showing what you're doing, that's what I would do. Um, obviously you want to gear it towards clients, but um, you you could probably just like showcase a design and say, like, here's how I built this you know section with Elementor, and here's how this helped my client. It you potentially don't even need to be on camera. Or maybe you could just do a quick intro and pop up and say, like, hey, I'm Megan, web designer, um, information here, you know, and then it goes to the video. So yeah, no, and you don't no one needs to be, you know, a social media influencer as a web designer for sure.

Megan Fletcher: 43:09

Right. It's so intimidating, but yeah, and thank you. And then just even all the comments of everyone. It's just it's so hard sometimes to like feel like you, I don't know, to to transition your mindset from like being just like a grunt at a job to like being actually talented and like knowing what you're doing, you know?

Josh Hall: 43:28

Yeah, from grunt to from grunt to business owner. Um, I mean, I think pretty much everybody here can relate to that on some level. But I'm glad you mentioned that, Megan, because I'm just thinking back to when I met Nathan, who was the content manager with Elegant Themes, the creators of Divi years ago, almost 10 years ago. Um, I felt that same way because I remember I was almost making six figures. Like I was gonna make six figures back in 2016 with my business. I felt like that was nothing. I like I knew agency owners who were doing way more and who had teams, so I just felt like kind of a loser, freelancer. Um, but he was like, he's like, you're almost doing six figures making Divi sites. And I was like, Yeah, with my maintenance plan and um my networking group. And he was like, that's incredible, dude. He's like, a lot of people would love to learn from you. And I was like, Oh, I didn't think about that. So yeah, you're there, Megan. You're there. A lot of you guys here are there. Awesome questions, guys. All right, we'll get to a few more and then we'll bring Lisa up. If that sounds good, Lisa, let's jump over. And I'm trying to keep an eye on the chat too. There's always great chat going on. Um, Judah wants to know what is the most difficult in staying up with date uh to date regarding web twin web trends, excuse me, as your role, uh, since it's much much less in the weeds. Well, it does help Judah that I'm still designing websites. Like it's it's not like I don't design at all. Um I did a lot of rework on Josh Hall.co. And as you guys probably saw recently, I just launched the new version of WebdesignerPro.com, learning Divi5 and getting back into a lot of the technical side of things. So it's not a muscle that I turned off. Uh, it's certainly something that I still do. It's it is just different because it's not at scale necessarily, but I am still honestly, I actually think in a lot of ways I'm more ahead than I would be designing websites for for clients because I'm seeing what you guys are doing in pro. I have a lot of colleagues that I have first set of eyes on what they're doing. Um, a lot of guests who are coming on the Web Design Business Podcast. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like, you know, the world needs to hear about this kind of thing. So yeah, I think I'm actually a hundred times more. Uh this is like, this sounds so douchey, but I feel like I'm a hundred percent more value, a hundred times more valuable in my role now because I'm seeing what's working here in pro on the podcast with my colleagues, within transit studios, with the agency, with Eric running it. Um yeah, so like I have a unique perspective that I try to make sure I don't lose sight of. Um, if I was building websites for clients at scale right now, I wouldn't be able to see all the trends that are happening. Um, and uniquely too, when I was building WordPress websites, I didn't know anything about any other builder. But now I, you know, we have folks like Emily here doing Squarespace sites, we have folks doing Wix sites, we have squo folks doing a lot more circle builds now um with different tools. So we have we have some webflow users. Like I am kind of I am seeing what a little bit like I kind of have my foot in all the different um areas of web design. So does that make sense, Judah? Yeah, that's kind of that's kind of how I feel. It's a great question because I do get that a lot. Yeah, not sure if Judah's still here with us, but uh my thoughts on that. Okay, cool guys. Let's get to a couple more questions. And Lisa, if you're good to come up, I'll bring you up. Uh man, such good questions, guys. I hope you guys are having fun too. I know this is just kind of a live interactive QA, but hope this is helping you guys as well. Where do you think community building is going in the future? Everyone, it seems everyone is jumping on having community nowadays. How are you staying ahead and intentionally being different with pro compared to others? Yeah, community is all the rage. I mean, I I think you you may you guys may have a different perspective with service-based web design businesses, but I think the value of community is that it can't be touched by AI. It is something that can be very, very valuable as an asset, especially if it's with a like recurring revenue membership model. Um, but community is extremely difficult for all the reasons we've talked about so far. Um I think that the trick with community is by nature community can't be huge. This is the the balance with Web Design Pro. It's also the reason I went to the tiered model last year because I we were at capacity with this coaching tier. You know, this call right now, can you imagine if we had 200 people on this call, guys? Like it would be an eight-hour call. So, like, community by nature needs to be um almost like constrained for it to be healthy. Uh, and actually going back to like what Mark said earlier with community builder being almost like a pastor, for anyone who has has been in the church world before, what happens for those who don't know, when a church reach a certain certain size, it's I you have one of two decisions. You become a mega church and have like 20,000 people come, or you split off in locations and you have like micro churches under the same umbrella. I really think community building is like that too. You know, pro if if if I wanted to, we could make pro so there's like 10,000 people in it. Do you guys want that? I don't know. I see a lot of heads shaking. I saw every head shaking. Um so it's the it's the sweet spot of like keeping it at a healthy size. But one problem and one challenge too is when when people get busy, it's harder to have time to show up. So a community can be very quiet if members are being successful and they just don't have time to engage like they used to. So it's a very, very tricky balance. Um, and it's one that I'm still working through and trying to maintain pro healthy size while also being welcoming to new folks and also making sure people who are busy and don't have the time to invest like they did previously still come back. So, any follow-up on that, Alexia? Great questions, great prompts on this.

Alexia Lynn: 49:49

Um, not really. I just know you're really into community building, and I saw your talk coming up with Circle, and I was like, signed up for that, of course. Um, it's just something I'm really interested in, just because you've done an amazing job with Pro. And so I'm learning and absorbing all I can.

Josh Hall: 50:04

Well, you're you are a community builder. I know you are, Alexia. And you're, you know, I like that you're in you're in the RD mode right now. You're in research and development on it. Um, I think it helps that you started your newsletter and are getting probably some real-time feedback from people, hopefully. Um, a lot of it is, though, I would say, like, even for your clients, if you guys are building a membership site or a community site for clients, tell them this, which is they need to act like a community builder. Like you have to show up. And I think with community, the more personalized you can get, the better. It's gonna engage people more. Um, I think pretty much everyone here has probably got a personal welcome video from me or a personal audio message or something when you joined. I still do that to this day. Um, just because I know how valuable it is. Otherwise, people are gonna bounce. So I don't do it for folks who joined the courses tier, but I'm thinking about a way to do that differently. Um so yeah, that's kind of like the more personalization you can get into it, I think the better for sure. That'll be a big part of the circle talk coming up for sure. Yeah, for anyone who's interested, I am speaking at the next circle summit here um in a couple weeks, which is gonna be super exciting. So shameless plug, I'll put it in the chat. It's totally free to sign up for if you guys have interest in community, or if you are um building communities for clients, come on over. It's totally free to join. It's gonna be cool. Alexia, how did they photoshop my shirt green? How did they do that?

Alexia Lynn: 51:42

Yeah, I saw that. It was funny. Ever since I made that that circle post that we designed, like the 11 things about circle, their retargeting is crazy. Like I get it on Facebook, on Instagram. It's just they have targeted me specifically.

Speaker 6: 51:57

Really?

Alexia Lynn: 51:58

Do everything with it. We I mean it's every time I open the app. It's crazy.

Josh Hall: 52:01

The video that we that you created for me, that my post.

Alexia Lynn: 52:04

Well, yeah, because uh I I don't know if it's something to do with them or it's because I was on the circle website for a long time trying to figure out how they did that, like around the thing, and I took graphics from them um to be able to create that and make it on brand. But I just think yeah, I've also been to the circle website a few times, uh, just looking at different stuff that they've got on there. So retargeting is like crazy good. Like it's just it's all over the place. So I saw yours on there with your face, and I was like, I'm gonna sign up for that.

Josh Hall: 52:31

Heck yeah. Wow, that's fun. That's interesting. Well, thanks for the question, Alexia. Lots of follow-up on that for sure. But yeah, that, you know, definitely I'll I'll share more in a couple weeks for the summit for anyone who's curious. But uh, yeah, it's really just retention, retention strategies. That's kind of what I'm thinking through more so after this push for the fall as well. Um, some really good follow-up questions, real quick in the chat. Harold said, I'd love to see more deaf people joining us. Yeah, Harold, I think I don't know. Hopefully, the captions are working for you. I think they are. Um, I do have like some content from ProCon last year that I think I'll put out for Harold just because we were able to have some ASL services, American Sign Language for Harold. And we I think all of us who got to meet in person, um, it was really one of the first times I was able to interact with a deaf person and being able to like, you know, Harold has his device that he types into, and I'm able to do audio and chat with back and forth. So it was really cool, man. And I'm excited to have you back and definitely um, yeah, definitely gonna make sure it's known that um folks in the ASO world can jump on into Web Center Pro for sure. Uh Emily said, Do you think there's a minimum for a community to make it successful? I think size of a community, I think for like a good core community, anything over 200 and 250 becomes a different type of beast. Um I think you need at least probably 30 to 50 to make to have enough engagement between calls and forums. But anything over, I you could probably in some manner go up to 500 with tiers just to have like a an engaged forum. But for calls and stuff like this, you know, it's it's hard to go past if if 25% of people are showing up, it's hard to go past 100 and 150. What's the law? What's the law of 150 people? What's that called? Where I mean, like evolutionarily, tribes were generally 100 to 150 people because once it got bigger than that, it's too big to manage, depending on the hierarchy. You got you then you have like separate tribes. So there's something to that in the community world as well. All right. Lisa, her arm is so tired. Let's bring Lisa up. I'm so sorry, Lisa. Let's give you some time to shine. Do you have a question or thoughts? And then we'll get back to some more questions.

Lisa Williams: 54:56

I know Megan's not here. Megan, if you're listening to this replay, find your sweet spot in what you want to put on YouTube because people want to hear you and people want to know what you know about said topic. So, yeah, that's what I want to say because she's got it going. She'll she'll do fine.

Josh Hall: 55:14

So, anyways, shoot her a note too, Lisa. Give her a little, yeah. Maybe follow the video. I will. That'd be great. She'd love to hear from you. That's just that is also just a good uh rule of thumb for anyone creating content. It's yeah, find your sweet spot.

Lisa Williams: 55:26

We all have something to share. We all have something that is is unique. That mine just happened to be a pad adjacent to web design, but I was always trying to find this the little piece that I can share about what I do as a whole. So there you go.

Josh Hall: 55:44

There's my because we have our own human story behind it, we have our own perspective, which it could Lisa and I could do the we could do tutorials on the exact same topic, and they would be completely different because of our experience around it. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. By the way, if anyone goes to the leaderboard, I want to publicly thank Lisa because if you guys go up in pro and click leaders, Lisa is our number one member. So, Lisa, I'm going to send you a special gift.

Lisa Williams: 56:19

Uh in honor of a ticket to WT WDP Pro Con.

Josh Hall: 56:24

Uh, I was thinking more free swag, but I'm just kidding, Josh.

Lisa Williams: 56:28

I'm getting the ticket out just late.

Josh Hall: 56:30

That's tempting. It's awesome. At the very least, you will get some swag on me. Um our number, yeah, our our top member in five years trailing is Ben, Michelle, Mark, April, Kate, Brian, Carol, Sandra, and Alexia has just creeped into the top 10.

Lisa Williams: 56:48

Yes, and Ben is on my booty.

Josh Hall: 56:51

That's right.

Lisa Williams: 56:52

Michelle, I love it. I love it.

Josh Hall: 56:55

By the way, the leader, the way the leaderboard works is however many likes you get on your posts and comments, it bumps you up as a so you basically get a point for every like you get on comments. So everyone go like Ben's post right now, and then we'll have a race for number one. It's just kidding, Lisa. Thank you, though. Sincerely, thank you for showing up every week in pro, Lisa, for five years. You're amazing.

Speaker 1: 57:19

Thank you.

Josh Hall: 57:20

All right, guys, we're gonna do a lightning round of questions to try to get as much as we can here. I don't have a hard stop at 12:30. I just wanted to keep us around 90 minutes. I know you guys got websites to build and businesses to run. Which is an easier, harder business to run, pro or your web design business? Also, which is more fulfilling and why? Uh, community is way harder. Way, way, way, way harder. Community and memberships in general are harder to sell. Um, and there's a lot of like, I think there's a lot of um not pre-work. There's a lot of trust that needs to be earned by way of actually doing something. Like, you can't just build a community to teach something if you are not in the industry or if you haven't already, you gotta achieve something before you teach it, basically. Um, now that's not to say that you can't teach something and show what you're doing right now, but I think there's a difference between like building a community around a product or a framework rather than like you know, building something around what you've done in the past. I don't know, maybe I didn't say that right. I don't mean to be discouraging for anyone to build a community, but like I think what I could not build Web Designer Pro if I was not a web designer. Um, now could I do it like if I started web design and started getting clients? Could I build a micro community around it? Yes, probably in a way, if it's more of a like we do it together. But in the way I've structured Pro, at least, it's a membership based off of years of experience, proven courses and frameworks, and then obviously what you guys are bringing to the table. So, in that sense, I think it's a lot harder to build community because when people join a community, especially if it's a coaching community, you need to have done the work previously. So I think in that way it makes it harder. Whereas when you're a web designer, if you can build a website, you can get a client and you're good to go. There's no pre prior work needed. So um, yeah, I mean, I've said like I built a six-figure web design business without knowing what the hell I was doing. So by golly, if I could do it, anyone could do it, and pro will help you get there a lot faster. I need to clip that and put it on the sales page. Um, which is more fulfilling, they were both truly fulfilling. It's so much more, I think this is a personality type thing, Alexis. Um, and feel free to, if you're still with us, Alexis, feel free to jump in on this. But I think you really need to be self aware about what lights you up through your energy. Um, I loved working with clients, but I love teaching more, and I love helping you guys build your businesses more. It's More fulfilling to me, but I've seen people, just like uh Devorah said earlier, people start a podcast and they stop because it's not fulfilling to them. Um, same thing with communities. I've seen people start communities, but they're just they're not a community person. Uh, and that's not that's not right or wrong. It's just you got to be honest with yourself. Do you want to provide a service? Do you want to provide a product, or do you want to provide, you know, a um a mix of the two in the form of a membership and be more community? So, Alexis, let me see. I'm not sure if you're still any any follow-up on that, Alexis? Looks like you're still here.

Speaker 1: 1:00:35

Yeah, no, not really. It that was really great answers. I was just curious, you know, your experience with it. I was really surprised to find out that community building is harder. I didn't think you would say that, honestly. So that was really good insight uh from your perspective on that.

Josh Hall: 1:00:53

Yeah, I think anyone who tries it out finds it out pretty quickly. It's like, wow, this is yeah, it's uh because there's just so many variables to community. Where like when I when I built up my web design business, it wasn't a community of clients, it was just a list of clients that was kind of individual services to them. Um, yeah, community is a whole nother ball game in the way of yeah, building something that's going to be a foundation at last. But you know, all of you guys here are such a testament to that. Alexis, you told me something when we met up at a ProCon a few months ago, which was uh you you said like out of a lot of the courses and programs you had been through, you had mentioned a distinction for what we have here in Pro and my stuff is that you felt like I genuinely cared. And that really is truly there. I mean, that you know, you guys can sense if somebody do they really care, or are they just trying to make some money and sell a course or a program?

Speaker 1: 1:01:50

Definitely 100%. I've been a part of so many communities back in the day, even like before 2020, like between 2012 and 2020, I joined so many um different communities. And most of the time you can just tell that they just really want to make what they want to make and do what they can to appease people, but you can really tell the difference when somebody like truly cares. So I know that you love this so much, but I know that you I also know the love and affinity you can have for what you do as a web designer. So I was also really curious about like, you know, which one you felt. So it's it's interesting to see that you do love this more, you know, and I can totally see that because you're like a people person, you know, so it makes sense. So that that makes a lot of sense.

Josh Hall: 1:02:39

Yeah, but you're right, Alexis. Like it is something that's hard to balance sometimes because uh when I when I do get into like design mode and creation mode, it's a different muscle. And I remember I have to remind myself, like, I gotta show up in pro, you know, at the very least, don't go 24 hours. Um, um, so like when I was designing webpresenterpro.com, I was like, I mean, honestly, like I could have disappeared for three weeks um because I was just in it. Like I was just I was all I was thinking about. But I had to remind myself, gotta do a little coaching. Just like I learned as a web designer, I'm working on a new site, that's all I want to do. But I gotta do maintenance, my, you know, my my hourly reactionary time. I gotta make sure everything's running with the business and anything that needs to be attended to, do that. So it's like the the the same processes and muscles I built up as a web designer still translate to what I do now. But um, yeah, it definitely, yeah, the the fulfillment of like the care and loving it is huge. Um, but that translates to you guys too. Like clients know when you really care, they know when a web designer cares about them versus when they feel like a number on a spreadsheet.

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

True, very true.

Josh Hall: 1:03:48

Gosh, that's good questions, guys. I could talk to each of you individually for over an hour, but time is a son of a gun. So let's get to some final questions here. Thanks, Alexis, for that one. Sandra, what does your wife think of the community, especially after meeting people at WDP Con? She loves it. Um it's it's fascinating because my wife is wired almost exactly different. We talk about this often. Uh, we just talked about it recently about how, like, if she were to build an online community and do a podcast, she would hate it. And it's not because she doesn't like people, she's just it doesn't give her energy. Like, she's not a she's not a community. Uh what gives me energy does not give her energy. She's she is a um an extroverted introvert. So like she'll she'll she loves to go to a party and loves to meet people and have conversations, but she's done for like two to three days after that. She needs to recover. Whereas, like, when I leave a big old party, I'm like, let's go to the next one, or like, let's do this again tomorrow. Like, when can we meet up for breakfast? Um so that that's the a big difference. But um, I think because she knows me very well and she knows now that this kind of thing lights me up, she's super happy and proud of Pro. And it's really important for her to meet people, like to, you know, she can she sees testimonials and sees the stuff. But um, the first time we all met at WordCamp a few years ago, two years ago now, um, she told me, like, you know, I knew what you did was was life-changing for people, but I didn't really I didn't really understand it until I got to hear the stories and meet people. And that was, you know, that was 5X with her meeting everyone at this last event in the spring. So yeah, let's run it back, guys. She's gonna try to be there as much as possible. So share your stories with my wife. She she appreciates that. Any follow-up on that, Sandra? Not sure if Sandra's still here. I know everyone had a long a long session here, so if you guys need to bounce, no problem at all. Yeah, let me know if you have any follow-up on that though, Sandra. If you're multitasking or Sandra might be off for lunch, who knows? Might be selling three or four vet websites and landing support plans at the rate that she's going. I think Sandra's managing like over 400 sites now with maintenance plans. Wild sauce. So we'll see if Sandra comes back and has any follow-up on that. Uh Caleb, do you wear your WDP shirt all day on Tuesdays or do you put it on right before the call? Yeah, it depends, Caleb. Um, the good news is the Pro Swag is extremely comfortable. So it's a great time, guys. Actually, I need to shoot. I just realized I need to change the logo. We're copyrighted now. There's a to-do item for me. I gotta change the logo on all the pro swag. Dang it, why did I put the TM there? Why didn't I just do it without it? All right, I gotta work on that, but go get some pro swag soon. Um, it's all super comfortable, which helps because I actually do want to wear it. Um yeah, I don't wear it on all the calls now. It's kind of, you know, whatever. Whatever is fitting for the day. But I do often wear them to coffee shops just because you never know when you're gonna get that lead. Pandora, good question, Caleb. Great to see you here. How did you plan to stop running a web design company interested in long in plan? So um, it's probably worthwhile if you guys are curious or if you hadn't listened to it or you want to re-listen to it because it was a long time ago. But uh, I did an episode with Eric on the entire process of selling in transit and what that looked like leading up to it. So I'd recommend checking that out. It's it's worthwhile for those of you who are interested in selling your agency, potentially, not even if you're interested in doing it now, but eventually, um, hopefully my experience can help you. But I did it, it was um it was something that was not planned by any means. And it came very quickly, quite honestly, because in the spring of 2020, when COVID hit, my online courses just started selling like hotcakes for lack of a better term. And then I realized, like, wow, there's a huge opportunity to do courses, you know, like really do it and complete my set of courses and really go for this. And I also just started loving it more and more. I mean, I had been a web designer for a decade at that point. And as I've said publicly, I was not burned out and I didn't have any anticipation of just jumping ship, but I just loved teaching way more. And I got to the point I was doing one proposal, and I remember being unexcited about a $4,000 proposal. And I was just like, oh, whatever, if it goes cool, if not. And then I caught myself, I was like, wow, if I'm not excited about making four grand, something has shifted, something has changed a little bit. And it was like, I was more excited about selling a $97 course than a $4,000 website. And that's when I knew, like, okay, I think I'm ready to take this more seriously. And because I just cannot run two businesses at the same time, because I'm like hyper focused on one thing at a time. Um, I I knew like, okay, I needed to, you know, it was time to do this. So check out episode 53 of the podcast to go deeper into that if you're curious. Alexia said the TM on these Pro Swag shirts are gonna be uh higher value now. Oh, I'm gonna find them on eBay. Alexia's gonna be selling her Pro Swag on eBay. All right, another revenue stream. Um Brian said, not excited about four grand. Right. Well, and again, I mean, you know, four grand in the course world for sure, but it what it truly was like uh, you know, you you catch yourself. You you do something for a long time, and you do get to a point where it just becomes un novel. Um, and yes, I you know, I could have absolutely kept on going with my web design business and offered something new or got into growth plans or raised my rates or changed it up, but because I was just more passionate about teaching at that point and started taking off, it was like a new, exciting thing that I wanted to go for. Um, and thankfully I did because I could not have launched Web Designer Pro and done a full-time web design agency. So follow the gut, follow your gut. Great questions, guys. All right, final call for questions. Jump them in the QA box if you have any questions, and then we'll do a final go-around here to see if there's any final thoughts. Palette cleanser, if given the choice, ask Ben. And you can only choose one. Are you ordering a hot dog or a corn dog? Actual question because I uh I'd like to begin offering accessibility boost for both my brands. Interesting. Uh, I would run a few automated accessibility check to find non-compliance, fix issues uh before after recording. I'm thinking of pricing this at 997. What is your immediate reaction? Well, to the first question, Ben, hot dog. I prefer hot dog, just a good old-fashioned hot dog in a baseball game, which you can have with me too when you come to ProCon 2026. Tickets available soon. Um for the accessibility boost, I would try to keep it under 500. I think a thousand dollar it feels like a low-end offer, and a thousand seems like a bit of a harder grab. Um, if anything, maybe work up to that, Ben. But let me know if you have any feedback on this. But and I just know this from selling SEO Boost. $499 SEO boost were selling like hotcakes when I was doing proposals. So I think accessibility is gonna be an even tougher sell, even at $500. So you need to explain why it's gonna be money saving. I would keep it under $500 and then work up to a thousand. Ben, I'm not sure if you're still here. Let me know if you what you think about that.

Ben Forred: 1:12:01

I am still here. I don't know if you can hear me. Yep, gotcha. No, that I think that makes sense. I was kind of just like arbitrarily throwing it at a thousand. Uh there have been uh I just had a conversation with somebody in Kansas City because there's evidently been uh kind of a triad of law firms that have been going around suing small businesses that have inaccessible websites. And so there's uh there's been a a couple of conversations I've had with small business owners that were asking about it. So I I uh I think it's maybe getting to be a hot topic, and I was trying to get out ahead of ahead of that with uh with an offering. Um, but I I think you're probably right. Starting sub 500 and working up to a thousand is probably the best strategy for that since people are unfamiliar.

Josh Hall: 1:12:51

Yeah, that's what I'd shoot for for you, Ben. Yeah, just try try to get some sales at a lower end and then you can work up to that. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for joining. Um any final thoughts? I'll leave this open as we close this up. Does anyone have anything they want to say in honor of five years of pro? We still have a group of 19 folks, so this could get wild, but I want to open the floor up. I'm in no rush.

Tamara Salchert: 1:13:18

Bria has PT in two hours, but I was just gonna say, Josh, thank you so much for creating Pro. I like along with other people listening to the podcast. Like, I remember telling you this forever ago when I jumped on, but like I was so like down in the like dumps because of when I started my business. I'm like, there's no other web designers that understand, like, you know, because you just it's like it can be such a you know very specific thing and to have other people speak into it. And then like I remember listening to your podcast and like, oh my gosh, this is like the best. And it just spoke everything that I was struggling with with contracts and grants and just like all the things that you touched on. It was like a godsend. So thank you again for like starting the community. It's it's been a blessing.

Josh Hall: 1:14:03

So oh well, thank you, Tamara. You're a huge part of it. I love seeing that you kind of you know found your micro group within the community with Alexia and Sandra and Megan and some others. So my gosh, I mean, yeah, thank you. You know, what you get into it is what you get out of it, and you jumped right in. So hats off to you as well. I really appreciate that.

Lisa Williams: 1:14:23

Josh, I did all that. I did all that, by the way. But you have a special birthday wish. Hugsy says happy birthday. Thank you, Hugsy. If you know you know, because Hugsy's been around since day one, right, Lisa? Hugsy, no, I just got Hugsy at the Friends Experience when I went.

Josh Hall: 1:14:44

Oh, okay. I wasn't sure when you got okay.

Lisa Williams: 1:14:46

Oh, how this is Joey's Hugsy, his childhood um and his childhood bestie. Anyways, happy birthday, Josh.

Josh Hall: 1:14:55

Is that coming in the mail? Because is that gonna go up on the shelf? I have this. Lisa sent me a list a few years ago, which I still have my arm. If you send me a hugsy, we'll see. It'll end up in here somewhere.

Lisa Williams: 1:15:09

Oh, he will, he will. Oh my gosh. Anyways, happy birthday.

Josh Hall: 1:15:14

Thanks, Lisa. And again, you know, huge thanks to you for showing up every day, every week for freaking five years. It's awesome. The floor is open, guys. If anyone wants to share any uh a final word on on pro.

Marc Hyde: 1:15:28

I'll say, man, it's it's wild how it went from just an online community that gave me the guts to go do something cool, but like these are my friends now. Like, I mean, let's be honest, like Ben, um, we we gotta DM a little bit more, but like, you know, I find myself DMing with Michelle and with Ben and like questions for Lisa, and like it's just one of these things where it's like, like, it these are my people, and like even when Beth knew that pro con was coming up, like it's already in the calendar, like it's just it's happening because you know, these are my people, these are this is where I love to be, and you know, it's a lonely world, and we were made for community, and you just happen to facilitate that, bro. So thank you.

Josh Hall: 1:16:03

Oh, dude, Mark, well said, man. Um, yeah, you told me last year that you know, this past event, it was like it's wild going from an online community to an in-person community because it's still the people, but it just changes dramatically.

Marc Hyde: 1:16:18

It's different because it's like I always joke with people, it's like, I know how tall you are now. Like, like for some reason, that's my my little capstone of like, yeah, I know how tall you are. Like, like you have like an upper body, like yeah.

Josh Hall: 1:16:30

Yeah, Mark was like, Oh my gosh, Josh, you have legs. I had no idea.

Marc Hyde: 1:16:33

It's true, and I looked up. I mean, I look it up at everybody because I'm not that tall, but you know, but still.

Josh Hall: 1:16:39

Yeah, no, that's so great, Mark. Well, again, you know, you're a huge part of it. It's the it's the folks who show up with the energy and are sharing what are working that keep this thing going. So um hats off to you, man. Uh, you are a you are an inspiration, which is why you're you're in that space. And uh look for me to do a success story with you here soon if interested, Mark.

Marc Hyde: 1:17:02

Absolutely, bro.

Josh Hall: 1:17:03

Send me a DM. Heck yeah, dude. Michelle has something to say, so I'm listening.

Michelle Bourbonniere: 1:17:09

I'll go. Um, I don't think that you guys understand that five years ago when you started Web Designer Pro, I had barely started my business, right? Like I had been working for friends at that point, um, and just a couple people locally. And so, like, really truly, Web Designer Pro really kicked off my whole business. I mean, I got into SEO, I started doing all that stuff, and like, same with Mark, like, these people are my friends now. And like, I'm just a soloprinter, and I don't ever intend to be more than a soloprinter. And so, this is just so huge for me because there are people that want to hear me talk about SEO and like that is a rare thing. And so it's lovely to be here. And I just to say, like, this has really made my business in the last five years. And yeah, just can't wait for the next five.

Josh Hall: 1:17:50

Remind me, Michelle. Did you join the Facebook group first and then get a can get connected with Eric?

Michelle Bourbonniere: 1:17:56

Yeah, I have the strangest little way. Um, yes, I was part of your Facebook group, and then Eric actually was like, he put a post at one point and said, What do you guys do for proofreading for your websites? And I was like, Well, like, if I don't step up and say I proofread websites, then like I better, like I could just go out of business right now. And so that's how I originally got connected with Eric was a post on your in your group. And then that's how I met you.

Josh Hall: 1:18:20

What's funny too is our first interaction was when I sold in transit, and um, Eric was like, Hey, um, you know, I'm already working with a couple folks. I think I'll have them on the call because they're gonna be part of the the new in transit team. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, but Michelle has um a resting nice face, and we all usually have some sort of guy, you know, girls have the resting bitch face, guys have the resting grump face. But Michelle was just like smiling and nodding, and I remember being on the call being like, Who is this? This seems like a great person. And then she came through with her copy stuff and then started talking to SEO, and I was like, Oh my gosh, uh, unicorn hidden gym. So to you, Michelle.

Michelle Bourbonniere: 1:19:08

So both of you were so encouraging to me when I was just getting started. Like, I like I really don't think I've ever told you this, but like, really, you guys were some of my first clients that weren't people that like were very good friends. Um, so I had learned how to do it before I met you guys, but I think I was too shy to go out there and sell it to people I didn't know. And now, like, it's just normal that I sell to people on the internet. Um, so it's just lovely.

Josh Hall: 1:19:30

Well, you are a huge, and everyone will back me up in saying Michelle is a huge part of the DNA of Pro. So thank you for thank you. Uh, I know how much it's meant to you, but I mean it's you know you've meant a lot to us too. So thanks so much. And um, speaking of Michelle, she will also be speaking at ProCon 2026. Uh, the date is announced, tickets will be dropping soon for coaching tier members to get early uh early access to tickets. So, Michelle, I can't wait to see you in person again, round two. And Mark, I will tell you, heads up, Michelle is taller than you might think. So heads up. Head literally heads up.

Marc Hyde: 1:20:12

I will I will bring my box to stand on.

Josh Hall: 1:20:14

We'll be ready. Mark's gonna come platform shoes.

Marc Hyde: 1:20:18

Just grow the hair and get a couple inches, you know.

Josh Hall: 1:20:21

We'll get Mark some platform shoes for ProCon 26. Anyone else? Any final thoughts before we head off here?

Alexia Lynn: 1:20:28

Final thought. Pros awesome, y'all are great. I'm seeing all the graphics in the the chat, and they are lovely, making my heart happy. Um, yeah, I remember when I came, I came to Josh with that idea and I was like, is this too cheesy? And he's like, Nope, I love it. I'm like, perfect. So yay, yeah. And everything about pro has just been amazing. So I don't see myself ever leaving. Y'all are like the best. So yay.

Josh Hall: 1:20:51

Heck yeah, guys. Well, Lexia, thank you. Thank you all for joining today. What a fun chat! Thank you for spending some couple hours here for those of you who have hung around to the end. Um, this has been awesome.