405 - Making your Website a 24/7 Sales Engine with Conversion Expert Greg Merrilees

What better time to learn about the latest (and time-tested) trends for website conversion than heading into Black Friday, Holiday’s and New Year – and that’s what we’re getting into with Greg Merrilees, who literally wrote the book on website conversion with Next Level Website Design.

We’re getting into all the nerdy, nitty-gritty and specific conversion tips and tricks on this one.

Remember, everything you learn here and apply to your site works on client sites making you more and more valuable as a conversion-focused web designer!

Charge accordingly 🙂

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/405

Chapters

• 0:00 Host Intro And CTA Principles
• 2:03 Why Write A Conversion Book Now
• 6:57 Timeless Psychology Beats Fancy Effects
• 10:35 Iteration, A/B Testing, And Heatmaps
• 14:23 One CTA Or Many
• 18:30 Sales Pages Without Leaks
• 21:21 Button Copy That Wins
• 24:03 Mobile Menus As Mini Sales Pages
• 28:20 Brand Positioning And Differentiation
• 35:10 Using AI Tools For Messaging
• 40:20 Social Proof And Case Study Strategy
• 46:06 Segmentation And Thank You Pages That Sell
• 52:30 Guarantees, Trust, And Reducing Friction
• 56:45 Resources, Audiobook, And Closing

Transcript

Greg Merrilees: 0:00

Always think of it like a verb, right? It has to be an action that you want them to do. So, you know, have the word get or download or book, you know, a book or call, etc. Like make sure there's a verb in there. And the other tip as well for button copy, and we know from split testing, uh, if you put the word your, like download your free report or whatever verse, download my free report, the word my converts better than your because it's the first person that's downloaded. They want their free report.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Welcome to the web design business podcast with your host, Josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.

Josh Hall: 0:45

Hello, hello, my friend. It's great to have you here. Is there ever a better time to talk about website conversion than Black Friday and the holidays? I think, well, I was gonna say I think not. I actually think it's important to always think about website conversions. And that's what we're gonna do in this one. And I can't think of a better guest to dive deep into this topic because we are gonna get nerdy and subsequently more profitable in this one with the expert on website conversion, the guy who just recently wrote the book on the subject. This is Greg Merrilles, he's a repeat guest on the show. His agency Studio One Design is one that I feature in several of my courses. I truly look up to him as like the conversion expert. He just wrote the book on it, which is called Next Level Website Design: How to Stand Out in an AI Era and Convert Your Visitors into Sales 24-7. So that's what we're getting into with this one. Make sure to check out the show notes for all the links that we mentioned. We do cover a few additional resources that will be found in the show notes for this one, which can be found at joshhall.co slash 405. And again, I really recommend that you check out Greg's book, Next Level Website Design. Remember that everything you apply to your site, you can apply to client sites, and that will make you way more valuable and you can charge a lot more. So let's help you do all that more by talking website conversion with the man, Greg Merrilles. Well, Greg, it's great to great to have you back on the show, man. Author now of uh next level website design. I have my signed copy right here. So really, really appreciate that, man. Anytime I get a package from Australia, it just feels super cool. So thanks, man.

Greg Merrilees: 2:33

Excellent. You're very welcome. Yeah. But uh, yeah, you've been you've been a part of my journey as well. You we've both been in the same coaching community. Uh, and now you've got your own community. And yeah, I've been watching what you've do, what you've done, and I've listened to your podcast ever since you interviewed me initially. I think you've got a great podcast. You have great guests, and you do great case studies with your members. So yeah, it's really super valuable, even for me.

Josh Hall: 2:58

Well, thank you, man. That's an honor to hear. It it is pretty cool. I'm glad that you said that just because I've been doing it for six years now, coming up on six years. And I feel 400 episodes nearly. Yeah, I think you'll you'll be 400 plus. Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah, there you go. So what's interesting though is I take for granted the the variety that we get on the show. Like we have, you know, like you mentioned, some case studies with members of my community who may be in the first year of their business, but they're getting wins, and folks like yourself who have been in the industry for years and are at the the you know, the the top of the echelon of like folks to learn from. So I wouldn't say that is really Chris. You had Chris Doe on, he's at the top. Yeah, Chris Doe, Amy Porterfield, Mike Mikalowitz. But what what is Troy Dame? Yeah, James was James Schramp, goes on a couple years ago. I mean, it is kind of cool that we're we all learn from each other. And I think you tell me, like, isn't it kind of cool to hear some of the folks who are getting started now and to see what their first couple years are like versus you know when you got started?

Greg Merrilees: 4:05

It's so different, man. Uh honestly, I've been in this game forever, like been in graphic design forever. I switched to website designs in 2012, 2013. But before that, uh, you know, I've I'm pretty old, you know. So when when I first started graphic design, we used to have dark room, a dark room in the graphics department, right? And in there we had this big Danagraph uh camera, which we used to enlarge bromides. You know, so we're talking very like 25, 30 years ago. Yeah.

Josh Hall: 4:38

Well, let's just dive in because I mean, I here's here's what I want to start off with here. Why write a book on website conversion now? Because when I was just thinking about you know what things were like 20, 25 years ago, I don't know if there was the terminology of website conversion and maybe even design. I don't know. I don't know what it looked like. But why do you feel like now is a time to uh, for lack of a better term, double-click into website conversion?

Greg Merrilees: 5:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a few reasons, but say initially I'm a learner, right? I love learning. And so that's why I listen to so many podcasts and read books and watch, you know, YouTube videos and all that sort of good stuff. And I would say having that mindset of always trying to learn, um, you do that when you create content as well. You research. And so then I realized after, you know, probably eight years of doing research and writing content and getting interviewed and learning from all these experts, that it's time to put, I had so much knowledge, it was just time, it was just time. It didn't matter that the AI is coming or you're in this type of era or whatever. The point is that uh it was ready for me to, you know, share my knowledge essentially. And uh also, you know, the biggest problem is for business owners, and I know most of your audience are designers, but they design for business owners. And, you know, a lot of the problem is that these website designers use all these fancy animation effects and parallax and all these things interacting, things flying all over the page as you scroll. But unfortunately, those things don't convert, right? And we do a lot of split testing with our conversion optimization service. And so realistically, I just want to show people with this book that it's not about the fancy effects, it's about trusted principles that work, you know, decade after decade. Even if AI comes in, you can still use AI if you understand these principles to use a AI to get you a better result with your website and copy.

Josh Hall: 6:33

Are the principles that worked 20, 25 years ago? I know you were in web then per se, but just based off of your knowledge and design, would you say all those principles still hold true today, large part?

Greg Merrilees: 6:47

Yeah, 100%. Like, because it's more about psychological drivers. And um, there's one book, Don't Make Me Think, by Steve Krug, which is a very old book. It's probably 15 years old, and it's exactly talking about, you know, why people buy and you know the uh the elements on the page, the way they're visually organized to attract people, you know, their eye tracking to the to the right part of the page. But it goes so much deeper than that. But yeah, so the point is these principles have been around for a while, but that's just part of it. And then learning from Robert Cialdini and his book Influence, he has other books too, but you know, those principles are timeless, and they're principles on how to persuade people to take action in life, not just on your website. But we use those principles on website design. So yeah, it goes deeper than just design principles. It's more about the psychology, copywriting frameworks, uh, pretty much anything that's going to persuade people to take action on your website.

Josh Hall: 7:45

I'll make sure we link both of those books up. And what I think this is great. And I'm actually glad that we recorded an episode a while back that kind of unpacks your story and how you build your agency. Uh, that was episode 330 for anyone who wants to go back and hear about kind of your journey and building your agency up and serving so many clients and scaling. Because I would imagine, and it's funny because even before we connected, I I featured your site in a lot of my courses as like a great example of conversion-based design. I would imagine a cornerstone to your agency growth and sustainability is just conversion design, right? I mean, that's what I know you as. That's I imagine that's like the the key to your guys' success.

Greg Merrilees: 8:31

Exactly. So, and you'll notice that if you had a screenshot of our website in your course maybe two years ago, it's gonna look a lot different today. It's probably gonna look different next week and the week after and next month because we're constantly A B testing and iterating. And that is the key to a high converting website. So, sure, start with all the principles and all of the you know design uh elements and brand positioning, which is a huge thing we can talk about brand positioning. Uh, but then you know, after that, it comes down to your website is never finished. So you've got to constantly iterate, you've got to look at all of the users on your website through heat maps, through videos, uh, through all of your analytics of pathways that they're taking from page to page, and then hypothesize, which is really just a fancy word saying, you know, figure out what you can try next to capitalize more of those uh users to turn them into a conversion. And conversion could be just a click to get to another page, could be to book a call, to buy something, download a lead magnet, start a free trial, etc. It's really just making sure you want to increase that uh conversion rate overall on every every page of your website.

Josh Hall: 9:43

Let's drill in real quick, because I would love to talk about brand positioning, but real quick, do you think there should just be one call to action throughout a site? Especially uh like what are your thoughts on that? Because I have mixed feelings, of course it may depend, but I have seen and learned that if you tell P, if you have, for example, contact us, let's talk, get started, schedule a call and buy now on a homepage, that's five different call to actions. Confusion is a great way to lose business. Like I've just really more and more felt very, very uh secure in telling my students one call to action. What are you what are your thoughts on that?

Greg Merrilees: 10:23

Yeah. So again, there's different types of use cases, right? So let's say if it is a membership website, like your Web Designer Pro, then you really just want one call to action, which would be to join the membership, right? Because you could probably imagine that everybody that's on that page have heard of you through your podcast or through other means, maybe YouTube, maybe you know, other members. And so they're relatively warm. I wouldn't say they're completely cold. And so it does depend on how cold, warm, or hot your visitors are, right? And so for you, if they don't join, then I would have an exit pop that is offering something of value uh in return for an email address that might just be, you know, a lead magnet of some sort. These days we're using AI to create a lot of interactive lead magnets as opposed to PDFs. They're both, you know, effective, but people want results instantly. But if you're talking for a home page of uh a service business or a you know a business coach or it could be an e-commerce, it could be any type of business where you have cold, warm, and hot traffic, then you need to cater to their intent and you don't know what their intent is. And so therefore, if it's a homepage like my homepage, for instance, we've got uh in the top nav, we've got a sticky uh call to action, which is for the free resources. So that's for cold leads, right? Um, and then we have we know from heat tracking the main thing people want to see on a web designer's business uh website is their folio. So that's our main call to action. And then underneath that, we have different pathways based on their specific needs, uh, you know, which could be for them to uh look at our branding, look at our website design. And if they do click on our web design service, there is uh a pop-up that will segment them into the type of business that they are, from a personal brand to a service, business to e-commerce, etc. And so you really want to try and cater to Cold Woman Hot, but then segment them based on their uh unique situation. So yeah, I would say sure. Um if your traffic's warm, you can have one call to action. But if you're excuse me, if you're catering to Cold Woman Hot, you need multiple.

Josh Hall: 12:28

Gotcha. Okay, that's good. That's good. Good to be on that then. And maybe that is because I'm I I am typically helping web designers who have a warm audience. It's rare, like I'm not I'm not helping people with PPC or cold traffic or marketing strategies that are generally at scale. It's it's typically like referral groups, somebody hears about you, or they, you know, met a networking group, they go to your website, it's like the final conversion piece. So that makes total sense that there should be a strategy in place for cold, kind of medium and hot there. Um I am curious with your website, and as you mentioned, you know, this may change even by the time this goes live, but um how I'm trying to remember what this looked like when I featured it, particularly in my design course. I thought your main call to action was to either like get started or something, or something like that. Why um I guess one question is why free resources and view portfolio. So I guess that would probably get two, that'd get a cold audience and kind of a medium audience.

Greg Merrilees: 13:32

But also the top nav is sticky site-wide top nav, right? For the entire website. Uh apart from the sales pages, we don't have the same top nav. We have an individual navigation for that particular sales page that when pressed, anything in that top nav will anchor link down the page. Uh, but basically, yeah, it's because if they're on the blog or if they're on, you know, any other type of page on our website, we want them to see that free resource. Okay. Because they may not, they may not be ready to buy yet. But yeah, so sure, it's on the home page. But like I said before, the main thing they want to do is click on the the folio and check out our folio. So that's why we have that as the main call to action in the main banner.

Josh Hall: 14:13

Gotcha. But I just checked it out. And your service, your sales pages have get a quote as the main call to action.

Greg Merrilees: 14:20

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So well, it does. There's various button copy. It's all leading to the same thing, which is a form, which will then lead to book a call. However, uh, the button copy throughout the page, we're testing various words in. Um, so it might say get a quote on one button, and then it might say, you know, uh, I want a high converting website. Like there's all various uh yeah, quote uh button copy within that single page, but it all leads to the same thing. But you'll notice on those sales pages, there's no top nav at all until you start scrolling.

Josh Hall: 14:55

Gotcha. So somebody could zip right there and then without even scrolling, boom, move forward.

Greg Merrilees: 15:01

Well, the point is when somebody's on your home page, you want to show them the top nav, all the things that you offer, essentially, right? But then when they go to an individual sales page, you don't want them to go off to any other leakage points, which are other pages on your website. If they're on a sales page, you want them to do that one thing. So we don't have a top nav at all. Until they start scrolling, then a top nav will appear, but it just anchor links down to each section uh of the page, each relevant section of the page.

Josh Hall: 15:30

Gotcha. Let's dive into buttons. You mentioned the buttons, you're trying some different wording. What about what are you seeing working well for your clients? Is it is this industry specific with how creative and fun you can get? Because I've seen so many different call-to-action buttons that are like, yes, I want this now, or it's just plain join now, or get me in, whatever it is. Like, yeah, what are your thoughts on the actual permit for buttons?

Greg Merrilees: 15:54

I would say test, you know, like because every every business is different, every audience is different. So it's a good idea to you know represent your brand with a button copy, but always think of it like a verb, right? It has to be an action that you want them to do. So, you know, have the word get or download or book, you know, a book or call, etc. Like make sure there's a verb in there. And the other tip as well for button copy, and we know from split testing, uh, if you put the word your, like download your free report or whatever verse, download my free report, the word my converts better than your because it's the first person that's downloaded, they want their free report.

Josh Hall: 16:36

Gotcha. That's really cool. Well, I see that's what's so great about kind of your high-level view on this, too, your bull, your bird's eye view, just because I know you're so into A B testing and research. And I imagine that's great for clients too, because you could be like, hey, we tried this out on this client, and just by switching the your to my, you we could roll this out.

Greg Merrilees: 16:56

Yeah, we do that a lot like yeah. Sorry to cut you off. Um, yeah, I'm just thinking there's one thing in particular that a lot of designers miss. So designers listening, uh pay attention to this one. So if you think about the hamburger menu on mobile for most websites, most people just do exactly the same what's in their top navigation, right? Um, and they'll just list it down the page. However, that we've we've done you know dozens of tests on various websites from e-commerce to service businesses. And what we've discovered is that in mobile menu, uh, you know, from the hamburger drop-down, we can generally uh see which ones are getting clicked on the most. And so therefore, we'll reorder those. And it's usually different to what's on the top nav of a desktop. Not only do we reorder them, but we put social proof in there. We put images for services, we have sliders that go across the page. Kind of think of it like an app in an app store where you'll see two and a half squares, and the half indicates that there's more than and you can scroll across. So we do that with our um uh, you know, navigation in in drop-down menus, and the results are incredible. Like it's almost like a mini uh you know sales page in a very short format, and it's really just all above the fold on a mobile screen. But yeah, the results are incredible. Uh, you'll get way better results if you put a lot of effort into thinking about that uh mobile menu.

Josh Hall: 18:21

Would you recommend on mobile, especially for sites who may have quite a few pages, or even if it's five to ten pages? Like, I don't know on mobile if folks are gonna research the same way they would on desktop. May depend on the industry, of course. But do you recommend basically a condensed version of the site on mobile?

Greg Merrilees: 18:41

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So think about you know, according to things would be collapsed, not expanded. Uh, you can still have the same amount of information, but just presents it in a different way. But yeah, I would say absolutely. Obviously, you need to optimize all of the images, recode them, you know, re-upload them as a web P that's at the actual size, not just a large image that's reduced down in size. Uh, but yeah, in general, you want to simplify it because, yeah, and especially if people are coming to your website from paid traffic, um, they're not going to give you much time. So you just they're gonna stop at headlines, they're not gonna read a lot. So it just needs to give them exactly what they need and then have the right pathway based on their intent.

Josh Hall: 19:21

Before we move into brand positioning, I want to ask you this, Greg. And I want to say I will not be offended if you don't agree with this. If you feel like you need to shred it, just hit me. But I have I've I've I've tried a few different and toiled around with this, but I've landed on using Become a Pro for my main call to action on Web Designer Pro. This is a super timely conversation because actually, for the past two weeks, I've been building out the new version of WebdesignerPro.com. Right now it's just one big landing page. The next version are going to be segmented pages for courses, community coaching, and expands on a few other areas and a separate page for me as a business coach for SEO. So I'm wondering, yeah, like should become a pro be the main call to action still, or do you feel like uh yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Or would just join now and do it?

Greg Merrilees: 20:12

Yeah, I mean, it has it has a uh a verb in it, become, right? So that's a good thing. Um, and look, I would say it the the word in pro ties in with your brand. And that's what you're taking people from just a web designer to a web designer pro. So it ties in with your main messaging. I don't have a problem with it. If you're concerned about it, potentially split test it against something else, join now or join membership. Uh, join membership has more clarity. And, you know, I guess if it says become a pro, there's not as much clarity. But if you read the headline before it and the subheadline, it's pretty clear on what's going to happen if they if they press that button.

Josh Hall: 20:51

Well, you definitely encourage me to once I roll out these pages with particularly because my have I have a tiered community now, particularly with the course pages, the community pages, and then the coaching page, to probably have the main call to action be separate on those, have one join courses, join community, join coaching or something like that. Yeah. Again, I'm gonna take another book out of the Studio One Design website books.

Greg Merrilees: 21:16

So excellent. Yeah, and like I keep saying, like you've got to test these things because we're only guessing. And you know, everything that you have on this page is best practice. You have a ton of social proof, you have benefits, you let people know what they can expect. And I think it's got all the elements, right? But um, if you were to split test this and change the call to action button or change uh some sections around, just try moving some sections up or down the page, you might find just doing little things like that could tweak your uh conversions by it might be another 10%, which is huge.

Josh Hall: 21:52

What are you using to do split testing um and then and measuring as well? Are you using like Microsoft Clarity or anything or a different heat map tool?

Greg Merrilees: 22:01

Yeah, love that. If anybody has not heard of Microsoft Clarity, get it, put it on your website, it's totally free, it's forever free, and that has heat maps and you know, user videos of everybody that's on your website. And they have AI built into it as well to summarize pages because it can be time consuming and overwhelming to you know study the user behavior. So that's one tool. But then for split testing, Visual Website Optimizer is a great tool for that. Um, there's plenty of other tools as well, but that's one that we've you know sort of leaned on the most lately. Uh, there's some WordPress plugins that are half decent as well. Um, but yeah, that's one that we use for split testing.

Josh Hall: 22:37

Gotcha. And I am a Divi guy. I'm pretty sure I haven't used it, but I think Divi has an A-B split tester, pretty sure. Um now I imagine before figuring out your call to action or call to actions, it's probably all about how you're positioned. So when it comes to like cold, medium, or hot audiences, is that kind of where brand positioning comes in? Or do you view brand positioning differently?

Greg Merrilees: 23:01

Differently, yeah. So what we're trying to do here is think about your audience. If they're looking for a solution to a problem, which is, you know, the definition of a business, you provide solutions, then they're going to be searching in various places. They'll look, you know, on the internet, they'll look at LLMs, they'll ask these questions, and they'll find a whole range of uh competitors to you. So what brand position is all about is how do you differentiate from your competitors, right? So um, and it might you know be a range of things from the the way you uh, it might be the amount of years you've been in a business, it might be the way you do business, it might be the offer, it might be um the the type of clients you serve, the social proof. There's different ways that you can dive deep into thinking about how are you different from your competitors. And then when you figure that out, that needs to be part of your marketing messaging across all of your marketing, right? So, I mean, if we look at your Web Designer Pro, uh you've got helping web designers, build, grow, and scale, lifestyle website design business. So, like that to me really talks to your audience. Uh, you know, it's really talking to beginners and you know, people that are sort of mid-range, if anything, that want to get off the tools potentially. I know some of your members just want to stay on the tools, but if you're gonna build a lifestyle business, essentially, then you really need to grow a team, you know, if you want to grow, build, and scale. Um, so that's part of you're you're getting who your target audience is within your messaging. But if you were to, and you probably know who your competitors are, if you were to compare your messaging to their messaging, uh, how similar is it? And can you differentiate even more to attract your ideal client?

Josh Hall: 24:46

Would you suggest? And I'm happy to make this a live case study and get real real-time coaching with you here. I know it'll benefit everybody. Um, because one thing I had thought about as as we start to expand WebdesignerPro.com to a multi-page site and eventually add some resources. One thing I thought about doing was a comparison blog about different web design business coaches and how I'm different. And pretty much all of them are my friends, so I'm not gonna trash them. But I do want to be really clear, and it's funny you mentioned Troy Dean earlier. Like I often tell people, Troy's great, agency Mavericks is great. Web Designer Pro is not agency Mavericks. Like, if you have a six-figure agency and you're all about PPC and SEO, honestly, you're you're better to go with them. But if you're a you know a freedom-based web designer who wants a small lean and mean team, that's we're perfect for you. Perfect for getting folks to 250K to 500K. We're not really a seven-figure, I'm not a seven-figure web designer coach. So those are the kind of little things I had thought about doing that. So my question would be like on a home page or elsewhere, would you recommend having a section that just hits the the you know the top highlights of that and then move them to the blog post for more kind of thing?

Greg Merrilees: 26:02

Absolutely. So there's a website that we've designed, which is Saks School Online. And if you check out their home uh.com, if you check out their homepage, they actually have a section that has a comparison chart on there between them and competitor offers, right? Um, if I just scroll down to that section, what they have is a cost comparison. So they have if you were to join a music academy, it's like 42,000 a year, private lessons, you know, 2,600 a year, SAC school $1.32 a day. But then they have a comparison chart for all of the things that they offer versus a private lesson. Um, and so yeah, it's a big difference there. But yes, for you, I would call out more, whether it's in a comparison chart or whether it is just that point of difference between you and Troy Dean's community. Uh, and you don't want to call him out, of course, but um, you know, really have a section to differentiate, um, to talk about exactly how you're different to the other ones.

Josh Hall: 27:04

That's a great idea. Well, what about what about linking? I guess it's maybe more of an SEO question, but what about linking to them? Um, because we're in a similar industry from an SEO perspective, I would probably be okay with that. I guess probably don't want to like send people elsewhere to say, like, you know, oh, join over here instead of me. Of course, it depends. But um, yeah, what about what about that idea about LVI? Like getting really grand there. I mean, honestly, I've had them all on my podcast too. So it could be like a good, like, uh, here's my interview with Troy, you want to get to know him, here it is. And then that might be.

Greg Merrilees: 27:35

Yeah, you could that's what I was gonna say. You're not scared to interview your competitors. He's not a direct competitor anyway, but um, yeah, and there's so many website designers out there. I've I don't think it's a great idea, you know, link into his website from your sales page or from your pro website, but you're linking to him from your podcast, which is your personal brand website, and I think that's enough, you know, uh personally. But yeah, um that's what I'll do.

Josh Hall: 28:01

I'll just link to the podcast episode. And if they want to, yeah, then they could go from there. That's a great idea. That's a good idea.

Greg Merrilees: 28:06

Exactly. Yeah. So I've got an AI interactive author which has my entire book uploaded to it. And I'm just I've just loaded it up now and I've said, and it's got a whole bunch of parameters. I said, can you review my website? And then it's just, yeah, what is it? Webdesignerpro.com, right? I can share my screen if you want me to know that's what it is.

Josh Hall: 28:26

I know. Oh, can we do this when the new version goes out? It's gonna shred me. No problem. While you're pulling that up, I'm gonna let my golden retriever in. She's like tomorrow. Keep on going though. Keep on going. Alrighty. So is this tool something that you have as proprietary?

Greg Merrilees: 28:43

No, it's like totally free. It's uh it's a lead magnet for yeah, anybody. Uh all right, chat GPT. Tell me if you can see that.

Josh Hall: 28:54

Okay, yep.

Greg Merrilees: 28:55

Yeah. So if anybody goes to my book website, next level website design.com slash free, they'll get this tool, they'll get a whole bunch of resources. But yeah, this and a you know, a workbook for the book, uh, various things. But yeah, this is a tool where you just say, Can you review my website? And say, sure, what's the URL? So I pop that in. Um, blah, blah, blah. And so it's just confirming what you are. Is that correct? You just say yes. Now it's going to go through clarity of message, it's going to go through. We'll come back to this, but all these things, blah, blah, blah. It's like nine areas that are really important. So it's picked up um brand positioning, your competitors, Flux Academy, the future. There we go. We talked about him earlier. Um, designership. I don't know that one. Okay. So it's saying this is what's unique about each of them, right? So uh Flux Academy, premium web design course, big focus on design skills and freelancing. Competitor two, the future, huge advantage community with uh training uh or design branding and business. Uh, blah, blah, blah. So it doesn't give a lot of info, but um, it's saying how you can differentiate. Position Web Designer Pro as a practical mentor-led community where freelance designers actually scale a business. That's not bad, right? So that's pretty good. Yeah. And so what we're gonna do is ask this um what is the difference between uh Web Designer Pro and Agency Maverick? Uh let's have a look. Yeah, even you to put the S in because I left it out.

Josh Hall: 30:29

This is where that blog post could help so much. We've been talking a lot about AI search, so like getting really detailed so these engines know. Okay, here's the blog post on all the differences.

Greg Merrilees: 30:39

Yeah, exactly. So, all right. So it's given you what you're all about, Josh Hall's membership, all these things, right? Um, and so then it's gonna say agency mavericks, blah, blah, blah, is all these things. Now we're just okay, it's got the key differentiators. How good is this? Wow, look at this.

Josh Hall: 30:56

Oh, I'm using the F out of this, dude. I'm gonna take this a block.

Greg Merrilees: 30:59

Exactly. All right, so then yeah, you can deep dive and you can you can have a conversation with it and say, you know, what about this angle? And I I like this idea, but what about that? And then it can help you formulate your USP and your you know, a whole section to differentiate. Yeah. What should my USP? Sorry.

Josh Hall: 31:21

No, no, go ahead. This is great. I'll definitely make sure we have the resources linked up in the show notes for this one too at the next level website design.com. So this was the uh I'll just ask it this.

Greg Merrilees: 31:34

Um, hang on. Because I've got uh speech on. What would be a good headline for Web Designer Pro to differentiate from agency Mavericks and all the other competitors?

Josh Hall: 31:50

Nailed it, he's good. He's already good.

Greg Merrilees: 31:55

Okay. Okay, it's got some yeah, it's got some uh options. Uh look, I would say brainstorm with it, and you'll yeah, yeah. This is just obviously a two-minute test, but yeah, brand great subheading too.

Josh Hall: 32:10

Great subheading, and I may even use those for like testimonial section headings. Um yeah, yeah.

Greg Merrilees: 32:18

And put it into your market in, your you know, your YouTube shorts, your Instagram posts, etc.

Josh Hall: 32:25

Yeah. Yeah, this is great, Greg. Well, thanks so much, but this is a fun little free audit, dude. This is awesome. I can't wait to play around with that. So, was that one? I'm looking at your free resources. Was that the AI interactive author, the first one there?

Greg Merrilees: 32:39

Correct, yeah. You get them all. You just opt in to get all those things, which uh, yeah, there's a lot of really valuable stuff in there that your community would love. It's like a blueprint with there's so many valuable things, including full case studies, uh, you know, and mood boards and and uh client interviews. And yeah, there's like I think seven PDFs in there, a whole range of things.

Josh Hall: 33:02

Heck yeah, man. That'll be the main resource we we get out on this one for sure. That's great. And I I just I think it's it's important to have this idea. I mean, it depends on how I how far I guess a web designer is going with creating copy. And if they are doing that, if it's SEO related. But I mean, even if you're not quote unquote a copywriter as a web designer, you're going to do some copy. So why not have this as the resource that you kick projects off? Clients would see this and be like, how much? How much? Let's let's get this going.

Greg Merrilees: 33:35

Yeah, it's a really valuable tool. I use it all the time. Every time I get a new client, uh new prospect, I'll ask this tool to review their website with those nine points. Uh, and then yeah, I will record a video and run through sharing you know my screen talking about these points that my AI came up with based on my book. So super helpful. And then we get sales from that. So any of your designers could do the same thing with this tool.

Josh Hall: 33:58

So brand positioning is basically differentiation, if we could distill it. Is that fair?

Greg Merrilees: 34:03

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And also not just differentiation from your competitors, but think about uh making sure it aligns with your offer and your price point, right? So if your Mercedes Benz, you don't want it to look like it's come from, you know, it looks like a Walmart looking design. You know what I mean? Like you've got to match the design with the price point. Uh otherwise people will, you know, won't expect it to be as like let's say you've got a high-end brand. Um, let's say look at look at your Web Designer Pro versus maybe one of your higher level competitors. I think your look and feel, the color palette, suits your target audience, who you're trying to attract, right? But let's say if you're a really high tier coach, business coach, and you charge $25,000 a year like most of them do. Um, if they don't have a really high high-end pro look in design that looks really slick, professional photography, all that stuff, then people won't think that they're as good as they are just by looking at their website. So your website design can look you uh let you down if it doesn't position you correctly.

Josh Hall: 35:06

Yeah, or vice versa, it can make you look awesome, even if you're just getting going.

Greg Merrilees: 35:11

Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then if you do sell really, you know, low-end commodity type products and your website looks too expensive, that people think, oh, maybe this stuff's not for me. You know, I want cheap stuff.

Josh Hall: 35:24

What uh what what are your thoughts on I guess color palette, but also just design in general with that thought? I guess what makes an elegant design when it comes to like higher end whether it's coaching, coaching, or yeah.

Greg Merrilees: 35:40

Yeah, yeah, high contrast, a lot of dark background. You don't want too much dark background though with white text because it's quite hard to read. It won't pass the ADA compliance things and all that, but uh I wouldn't worry about that you know too much for a smaller business. But uh yeah, high contrast, dark background, even having some luxury textures in there as well, you know, in the background, uh light in, just things that make uh things look uh look and feel premium. If you look at any watch website, they look premium, you know. If you go to Tag Hure or Rolex, like have a look at those websites, they're just very high contrast, dark backgrounds, light backgrounds, um, like as in black and white, and then they just let their product be the hero with photography. And yeah, it's really not much copy. I mean, I don't like using it. I understand copyright is extremely important, but um, if you are if you have a warm audience or a well-known brand and that comes from good brand positioning and marketing, then less copy will still be totally fine. It's only when you're a challenger brand, like smaller guys, like most of your audience, then I wouldn't simplify the copy too much because you're missing out on letting your prospects know what's unique about you, how you can solve their problem, and the fact that you understand their situation, their problems as well. If you just skim over all that and don't include it because you just want to showcase your cool folio, um, yeah, people won't know why they should choose you over your competitors and that you have a solution for them specifically.

Josh Hall: 37:08

What are some of your favorite personal conversion tips and tricks?

Greg Merrilees: 37:16

Favorite, there's so many. I honestly I think it just starts with a good foundation. Like there's no real you've just got to say, I could tell money whenever you want, but I'm I'm kind of curious.

Josh Hall: 37:27

Yeah.

Greg Merrilees: 37:28

I would say copywriting, you can have the biggest wins by tweaking your copywriting. All right, like that's easier to create, you know, different versions. By the way, you don't have to A B split test uh at the same time. If you have low traffic, you can split test over time. So one week change a copy to this, next week change it to that, and just see what happens with your conversions. So yeah, you don't need fancy tools, you can test over time. But yeah, copywriting is surprising how you can get the biggest wins just by making copy tweaks. So yeah, to me, that's what everybody should be trying first.

Josh Hall: 38:05

And now it'd be a mixture of headline, call to actions, differentiators. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, kind of what you outline and the and the author, the AI author.

Greg Merrilees: 38:16

Yeah. I would also say like if you have uh any type of business that is growing, you've probably collected a lot of social proof. And whether that's in the form of written testimonials, video testimonials, full case studies, etc. And what we find is having a dedicated page for all that on our website, you know, people just go to that page and go, oh wow, okay, that's a lot of social proof. They may not read it all or or watch all the videos, but when you have hundreds of these things in one page, like sure, you want to spread social proof over every page, but if you have a dedicated page to social proof, uh yeah, it can be super powerful. We got one client called piano in21days.com. He has this social proof page that has so much social proof, he has to segment it into age group, into cities. Like it's he's got literally thousands of social proof, you know, in one page.

Josh Hall: 39:10

So what's super I'm using I'm using Sinja now for for all my testimonials. What's he using?

Greg Merrilees: 39:17

That's yeah, we've had clients have used that. I don't know what he's using personally. Um don't he we designed his website, but then he had somebody else build it, so I don't know what he uses. But gotcha. Yeah.

Josh Hall: 39:28

Well, you're just reaffirming. I'm feeling good because you're reaffirming reaffirming everything I'm working on with the do version of Webpresenter Pro.com, which will be live by the time this airs. So excellent. But the the social proof, what I realize, and this is for anyone, I think it's funny because with testimonials, they tend to just creep in over time, especially if you're really active on getting them. And then depending on if they're per product or for a whole brand in general, it's very surprising how many you'll have. Like, I know my my business is different than a service-based web designer, but I looked recently and I'm like, I've got over 300, almost three, over 350 course testimonials. And then I've got a hundred plus video testimonials that talk about pro and are in different aspects of my coaching or my or my community. So we've actually we're currently working on loading all those into Sinja. And then they are dedicated to Web Designer Pro as a whole, Web Designer Pro courses, Web Designer Pro community, and Web Designer Pro Coaching. And I'm really doing that same approach of like course testimonials, community testimonials, coaching testimonials. Perfect.

Greg Merrilees: 40:39

Do you have any case? Yeah, I would segment them all on one page, but um, do you have any case studies from them, like a proper, you know, full-length case study? Yeah.

Josh Hall: 40:50

That is the next ones we're working on. I'm gonna launch it with just the main reviews page, and then I'm gonna start to add full stories, like full-on case studies, yeah, with a probably start off with half a dozen and up to probably a dozen of my pro members who are like, you know, they're like just such a good story. This is the kind of person I want in this category.

Greg Merrilees: 41:11

Yeah, exactly. And you've done case study podcast episodes. If you turn some of them into actual one page per case study where you talk about their situation before they came to you, what their challenges and problems were, and you know, what their tool stack was and all these things. And then when they joined Pro, they learned all these, they saw a whole new world and all these things changed for them, and you know, um, what your involvement was, and you know, et cetera. And then what the results were, right? Uh if you have nice visuals with all these things as well. And with the results, it's you know, they went from this to that and blah, blah, blah. And then you have some impact metrics of what it meant to their business, and then a nice testimonial, whether that's in written or video, like that is a killer case study page that you would only need like three to six of those type of pages and potentially targeting slightly different areas of your target audience, and then add them to your email marketing nurture sequence, uh, do podcast episodes on each one of them and send people directly to those case study pages. Obviously, the call to action is to join membership, uh, sorry, designer pro, right? And so, yeah, that could be a really powerful strategy because if you just do that wall of love page, um, it can be overwhelming. They may not know what to focus on. And if you had individual just one case study, a full story, it can be, yeah, super powerful.

Josh Hall: 42:32

So, well, first of all, I'm gonna take that transcript and use that as the the outline for the case study pages because I had three, I have three I'm working on right now, but yeah, I just I was going back and forth on like what to what to ask, where to position it, but what you laid out right there before you join, after you join, results with the visuals, testimonial, and then some of those little finer aspects in there. That was that was gold. So I'll use that as the prompt.

unknown: 43:00

Yeah.

Greg Merrilees: 43:01

If you pick from your best testimonials, let's say a dozen, and if you send them an email, uh say, say, hey, look, you know, I'm redesigning my website. I'd love to use you, one of my favorite clients or customers, whatever you call them, uh, or pro members, um, uh as a case study on my website, and then you just ask those questions that you you know, what was your situation like before you came to us? How did we help? What were the results? Um, that could be turned into the case study. And then you interview them on Zoom or, you know, Riverside, whatever you want to use.

Josh Hall: 43:32

Do you do a lot of those case studies? Do you for folks who want to do this with clients, even if it's just on a smaller level with maybe three, do you send a client the list of questions so they're prepared and then you go into it, or do you try to keep it more loose and conversational?

Greg Merrilees: 43:48

We we say, look, if if you want to do a written testimonial or a video or jump on a call and I interview you, either way, use this format. Leave it to them.

Josh Hall: 43:59

Gotcha.

Greg Merrilees: 44:00

Yeah. Okay. And then you see if you get enough information from it, and then you can, you know, see if not, ask them if you can jump on a call. Like there's many ways to handle it, but yeah, it has to be around that um situation, you know, challenge results because or how you help, and then results, because that's what people, you know, cold prospects when they see themselves in that situation and they can see, oh wow, yeah, I can see myself, and yeah, I had those same problems, and oh, I do have those problems now. I need to join this community because wow, look at the results he's got or she's got.

Josh Hall: 44:37

Yeah, yeah. Well, I what's kind of cool is for for me and anyone who has a lot of social proof already, I could definitely create probably a dozen full-on success stories based off of that framework with the existing testimonial and then the podcast interview if they want to go further. I love it. Yeah, that this gives me a lot of clarity. Thanks for that, Greg. I this feels a lot more clear to me on like, okay, I feel good about just wrapping up because I I actually had Jap GPT, I took the transcript and ran it through there for one of my recent podcast interviews, but it just wasn't great. And it was probably the prompt. I had it make a case study, but it it left me confused reading it. So I want I wanted to make sure I avoided a confusing story uh as a case study.

Greg Merrilees: 45:22

Got it. Well, even use the the interactive author of my book, and yeah, it can you it could take whatever answers you get from these people and turn it into a more substantial case study and get their approval, of course. But yeah, it'll, you know, they may not give you exactly what you want, so you can tweak it.

Josh Hall: 45:41

What are some hidden conversion tips that we haven't hit on that maybe web designers aren't thinking of or maybe they're missing? We just I think we covered like the the really the foundational best conversion principles there for sure, with just the the idea of clear headings, the copy, call to actions between hot medium and and kind of a cold audience, differentiators. Uh, we just went through a little masterclass there of case studies versus reviews and testimonials. What what's something else, or is there anything else that yeah, we're missing? Yeah.

Greg Merrilees: 46:16

Segmenting, I think, is super important, you know, not just uh for your designers to put on their websites, but for when they're designing their clients' websites, don't think of it as a catch-all. Because let's say you're designing for a service business, but they have various, we'll call them buckets, like different buckets of target audiences. You really want to segment them and have a landing page that talks to each one of those buckets. Or it might be a different offer, you know, it could be an accountant that does bookkeeping accounting, and I don't know, maybe they have a membership or something else. So they're totally different offers. And so you really want to, yeah, segment first and then have like not just a landing page, but a whole funnel around that from a lead magnet that leads into that, you know, to cater to cold and warm people. Um, and then on the thank you page, that's probably one of the hidden missing things that most designers miss, which is having an amazing thank you page with a video face to camera that says, you know, thank you for whatever they've just done, but then invites them into the next step of the funnel and explain the benefits, fets of explain the benefits of that next step, etc. And if it is, for instance, to uh let's say if somebody's booked a call with you, I like to have FAQs in that thank you page video that talks to their objections or frequently asked questions that you hear on those sales calls, because then when people, A, they'll show up to those sales calls and B, they'll be more likely to convert because you've handled all the objections in your thank you page video.

Josh Hall: 47:47

So I want to be completely selfish and ask a Web Designer Pro question here. Um again, I know everything we cover is gonna are gonna help folks as they're working on their lead generators and their segments, but so my segments for Web Designer Pro are builders. I I call them builders, growers, and scalers. Builders are folks who are early on. Um they may be brand they may be brand new to web design or they probably have started in some way and they're they're they're one that gets serious, but they're essentially a starter. So I currently have a free starter lead generator that's uh like a one-hour training with all my tips on getting started. And um, I'm gonna revamp that for the new version of Web Desenter Pro. So that'll be my lead generator for the builder. I've got one for growers who have a business that's cooking, but they want to get to six figures, and then I have one for scalers who are at a six-figure level, but they just they're swamped, they need to grow a small team but don't want to be a big agency. So I have my seg I have my segments very clearly defined, even more so in the new version of the website. I've got two of the three lead generators, and I'm gonna create the third one and get those refined with with seek with segments from or uh with sequences from the new case studies that I create for sure, that are you know, a builder, a grower, and a scaler. My question is I when people come to WebCenterPro.com, I don't want to deter them from joining to go to the free stuff. So my only apprehension when I see your type of setup on Studio One is do you think that would work for me to have like free resources big and bold somewhere?

Greg Merrilees: 49:21

Or should I use the free resources as more marketing and yeah, marketing exactly to drive yeah to drive people from the podcast, you know, to the free resources. Yeah. And I would also suggest just have an exit pop, you know, like only when they go to leave the website, not an entry pop because it's so damn annoying. But when somebody goes to leave the website and they haven't taken action, they haven't joined, then why not offer them something that's helpful and valuable to them uh that's going to give you a lead that you can nurture. And then when they are ready, they'll you'll be top of mind.

Josh Hall: 49:57

Gotcha. I like that idea for sure. Yeah, because uh I I was always a little bit leery about like when somebody goes to WebCenterPro.com, I want them to join. They're likely already, I mean, I'm not really doing cold outreach right now. Maybe if I do cold outreach, that could change a little bit, but that makes total sense. I love that idea. It feels like what about footer in the website? At least have a link to free resources in the footer. That way, if they're down there, they know it's there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I love that idea of an exit. Yeah, I love that idea of an exit pop up for sure.

Greg Merrilees: 50:31

Yeah, but also, like you said before, for your marketing from certain blog posts or YouTube videos or podcast episodes that might be completely relevant to one of the lead magnets, you want to send them directly to that lead magnet first. And then on your thank you page, you know, that's where you offer pro and talk about the benefits. Got it.

Josh Hall: 50:51

Thank you, Page, with the pro offer.

Greg Merrilees: 50:54

And generally speaking, on that thank you page, video um page, let's say thank you page, video at the top, and then you just have a repeat of your landing page, your home page in this case, underneath the video. And just the video thanks them, explains the benefits, and just say the next logical step is blah, blah, blah. And you can even have a limited time offer, just specific for people, you know, for a limited time for people that opted in, or I don't know, it's up to you what you want to do there, but it can entice people to take action.

Josh Hall: 51:26

Yeah, one um one of the best tips I got from Russell Brunson with the Click the ClickFunnels guy, is he talked about there, it was all about the confirmation page and the thank you page where they got folks to opt into a free trial and then it was paid after that. I'm not I'm not down with a free trial for pro, but to make a no-brainer offer is definitely what I'm working on.

Greg Merrilees: 51:51

Um yeah. If you have a 90-day money-back guarantee, you'll we did that with SAC school from 30 to 90, that boosted his conversions.

Josh Hall: 52:00

Oh, interesting. Does he have tiers in SAC school?

Greg Merrilees: 52:05

No, he has courses all within. Um, he sometimes leads people to a course first, but that all leads into the membership.

Josh Hall: 52:15

Gotcha. Okay.

Greg Merrilees: 52:17

Yeah.

Josh Hall: 52:18

Gotcha.

unknown: 52:19

Yeah.

Josh Hall: 52:19

I was just thinking I would I wouldn't do a guarantee with coaching, but like for courses for sure. I'd be happy to do that. Just it because I do find that people just need to get a taste of it, and they're like, okay, yeah. Exactly. And I think it's I think these high conversion best principles are even more important in the AI age, which I imagine is the theme. It's the theme of your book, How to Stand Out in the AI age, but like trust, basically. I I'm really, really leaning into trust.

Greg Merrilees: 52:47

I love it. Yeah, you're doing all the right things. You've got your personal brand website, you've got your podcast, you you've got you know the pro membership, you've got lead magnets, and everything that you do to get people in there, to me, you've built enough trust already. So you're doing all the right things to build trust in your brand.

Josh Hall: 53:06

You can always experience this. Yeah, right. You've probably experienced this with clients, but I've realized I've so many people who join pro who say, I've been listening to your podcast for two years or a year or two, I finally joined. And I'm like, what have I been doing wrong that we had to wait two years to join? So that's what I'm working on is like moving from the two-year window to like, you know, let's make it to like the two-day or two-month window.

Greg Merrilees: 53:30

Uh I wouldn't see that as what do you what am I doing wrong? I would see that as if you weren't doing anything, they wouldn't know you exist. So it's a long game. Who cares if it's two years? You know, your future self will thank you for the work you're doing today.

Josh Hall: 53:47

True. I guess I just feel bad for them because it's like you can make so much more money so much faster and get so much more freedom so much faster. That's what I like. That it's like it's a shame. It's a shame when I meet people. And I get and I get some, you know, sometimes there's a time and a place where, like, yeah, you're just not at a good place to dedicate to I get it totally. But yeah, for some folks, yeah, I'm like, I mean, I've had pro members tell me, I'm like, they're like, God, I wish I would have done this, you know, years ago. I would have I could have been full-time already, or I could have been going to my kids' baseball games instead of missing them. So uh, that's a good point. That could be a fun little thing I I might add in the AI author for some urgency to help with some urgency on it without being super sleazy in sales, which is not my style anyway, but no, exactly.

Greg Merrilees: 54:32

But yeah, just talk about the the case studies and you know how life could look a lot better. Um, you know, why wait? And then just talk about the risk reversal, which is that whatever day guarantee 30, 60, 90.

unknown: 54:46

Yeah.

Josh Hall: 54:47

Yeah, man. Well, Greg, this has been awesome, dude. This was kind of half coaching session for me, so I really appreciate it. I will I tell you what, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you I wanna I'm gonna give you early access to my new site once it's ready if you uh if you're interested. I'd love your I'd love your I'd love your critique just to give you some high-level pointers. But um your book, man, next level website design. I told you before we went live. Uh I regret to inform everyone, I haven't read it yet. Uh it's on my list, but I have my signed copy, so I'm really, really fired, especially after this conversation. I know this is all stuff that's unpacked here, but uh, we got the book, and then you got some killer free resources. So, yeah, where should everyone go next, man?

Greg Merrilees: 55:31

Yeah, thanks, man. We've got the audio book coming out shortly, too. I've actually had uh 11 Labs, which is uh an AI tool, uh clone my voice, and it's incredible. Like it's 10 hours of uh of me, and I've listened to it. We've had to tweak it a little bit, but it's pretty damn good. So it's not on Audible just yet, it's on Apple Books, but yeah, we're just it's gonna go on all the platforms. We're just waiting for them to approve it. But yeah, so next level website design.com forward slash free if you want the free resources, or yeah, just.com if you want to check out the book.

Josh Hall: 56:05

Heck yeah, man. Well, Greg, again, dude, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your expertise. Uh, let's get you stateside so you can be a speaker at one of our upcoming WDP con events, man.

Greg Merrilees: 56:16

Sounds awesome, man. Thank you so much. I appreciate that offer. Yeah. Keep me uh couple years.

Josh Hall: 56:23

I'm hoping to do one uh overseas. So if we can get down to Australia, we have some we have some Aussie members, so if we can get down to Australia, we'll do one down there.

Greg Merrilees: 56:31

That'd be cool. Yeah, that'd be super cool. Yeah, come to Melbourne. It's where it's a city where it's all happening. Terrible government, but great city, very cultural.

Josh Hall: 56:40

I'm a tennis guy, so I I've always wanted it's been on my bucket list to go to the tennis program down there.

Greg Merrilees: 56:44

So you are a tennis guy, yeah. Yeah, it's uh incredible here when when the tennis is on, it's very popular.

Josh Hall: 56:51

Oh, heck yeah. I'm in. Well, Greg, thanks, man. A blast as always. Till the next time.

Greg Merrilees: 56:56

You bet. Thank you, Josh. Take care.

Josh Hall: 56:59

All right, my friend. Again, I hope you enjoyed this one. So much to learn from Greg. I feel like we this was a bit of a masterclass here, and we still just scratched the surface. So if you want to go further into proven principles on website conversion, check out Greg's book, Next Level Website Design. That will be linked over at the show notes for this one at joshhall.co slash 405. And as we talked about, I would highly recommend that you check out Greg's Studio, Studio One Design. His website is studio the number one design.com. Um, if you want some info because he knows what the heck he's talking about. He is the expert on website conversion, so I can't wait to hear how this one helps. Make sure to send Greg a note, let him know you heard him on the podcast, connect with him on. I think he's active on pretty much every social media platform. So let him know you heard him here. Maybe share a win or a takeaway from this conversation. I know he'd love to hear from you. And a big thanks to Greg for pulling the curtain back on website conversions on what's working for their agency. And I'm excited to hear how it helps you, my friend. Go to joshall.co slash 405 for all the links on this one. Cheers.