414 - Can Copywriters Survive in an AI World? with Nikki Thompson

As a web designer, I’m sure you’ve had plenty of people ask “is AI going to take your job?”

Well, my position is firmly NO.

But one adjacent part of the industry I was curious/cautious about is copywriting. After all, I’m primarily using AI for copywriting and messaging help these days.

To hear how copywriters are surviving, even thriving in an AI world, here’s copywriter for web designers Nikki Thompson who shares everything she’s implementing today!

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/414

Transcript

The Headlines-Only Test

Nikki Thompson 0:00

So I want you to go to any page and just read the headlines. Do they get a sense of what you do, who it's for, what the value is, you know, why they should care? Like, or if it's like if you're using labels as your headlines, like services and testimonial, you know, if you it's just like strictly labels, like that doesn't tell a story, right? Like your headlines need to pack some value. So does it tell a complete story? Check your headlines.

Josh Hall 0:25

For every page about services home and everything?

Nikki Thompson 0:29

I mean, like your contact page might not tell much of a story, but but like, yeah, your homepage, your services about like I I want you to tell get a sense that if somebody lands and just skims, do they get an actual accurate picture of what we do here and and the transformation you can provide.

Will AI Replace Copywriters

Nikki’s Services And Partnerships

Josh Hall 0:49

Welcome to the web design business podcast with your host, Josh Hall. Helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Hey, hey, my friend, it's so good to have you here. Now, as a web designer, no doubt you have had questions, probably primarily from folks outside of the industry, who are asking if AI is going to take your job as a web designer. Now, the good news is I firmly believe no, that will not be the case. But there is an adjacent part to the web design industry that I was very curious about on how AI was going to affect them. And it's copywriters. Because personally, I don't know about you, but I mostly use AI for copywriting help or messaging or idea generation or just website copy and stuff like that. So, my honest thought a couple of years ago, when ChatGPT and Claude and Perplexity started really picking up steam and going public, I kind of wondered like, what's going to happen with copywriters? But I can probably speak for a lot of them by saying all of the copywriters that I knew back then are still in business and still killing it. But it doesn't mean that they're not using AI or really aware of how to position themselves different from AI. So that's what I wanted to dive into because copywriting is such an important part of web design. And I'm fascinated by this little niche in web design and how folks are using it and if they are, in fact, afraid of it or what their thoughts are long term. So that's what we're gonna dive into in this one with Nikki Thompson. She her brand is at Claritybranding.co. She is a website copywriter and story brand certified guide. And we're getting into exactly how she is using AI andor not using AI, and some of her top tips for copywriting help to for you to help you write high-converting websites. And if you are somebody who is not interested in dealing with the messaging or copy, Nikki is a great resource. Again, you can find her at Claritybranding.co, and she has a free masterclass over there as well at Claritybranding.co slash masterclass. All of this will be linked over at the show notes for this one, which are found at Josh Hall.co slash 414. So without further ado, here's Nikki. Let's talk AI and copywriting, and let's have some more fun. Well, Nikki, we were joking the universe uh did not want us to have this call between some reschedules on my end and then some tech issues. But by golly, we're here. And uh speaking of tech, we're gonna talk AI and copywriting, if that sounds good.

Nikki Thompson 3:30

Yeah, that sounds great. Thanks for having me.

Josh Hall 3:33

So tell me just a little bit about kind of what you do in the copywriting world. Copywriting is so interesting to me because, as you know, I'm in the web design side of the world and community building. And copyright, my when I think of copywriting, I think of just website copy. But I know copywriting extends much further. So, how uh how broad is your scope of copywriting services?

Nikki Thompson 3:56

Yeah, so I focus um on websites. Um I also do the brand message development. So that's you know, our brand personality. And um I utilize the story brand framework. I'm a story brand certified guide. Um so a lot of the brand message development happens um and then rolling right into website content um as part of my typical projects with clients.

Josh Hall 4:17

What about uh social media, email marketing, and the things that are ancillary to websites? Do you help out with some of those areas too?

Nikki Thompson 4:24

I do not, um, but I would have some great referrals if clients are you know looking for that. Um I primarily work through web designers, have a lot of uh web design partnerships. And so um we might have sometimes they are you know having a referral for that, or I would have some as well.

Josh Hall 4:41

What about SEO? How far do you go in the SEO side of things?

Integrating SEO Into Copy

Nikki Thompson 4:45

Yeah, so um if I can kind of share, like I offer, I'm a website copywriter. I offer integrated copy partnerships for web designers. So um rather than maybe more of a white label relationship or even just a straight referral, I really become my goal is to become an extension of the web designers team. And um I'm client-facing, develop a relationship with the client if we go through the messaging process together and like just fully support that kind of seamless experience for them. Um, I would say about a year ago, I was like, I'm not always consistently getting um SEO information from the designers or from the agency. So I'm like, okay, this is something I need to start bringing in-house to be more proactive about it. So I have an SEO specialist now that I subcontract to do research for me. Um, so you know, I'll do my client interviews and have um some of their strategy questionnaires, and we'll do she'll do keyword research and selection based on that information. And then um I'm writing with that in mind. So I'm doing the on-page, the content optimization as part of my work.

Josh Hall 5:53

Gotcha. Well, I wanted to lay the foundation out here just because AI is in the picture big time with copywriting. I mean, I remember like when AI kind of came onto the scene and all the large language models um started getting implemented. Every copywriter I knew was probably more so than any other industry, was like, uh-oh. Um, but I feel like we've turned, I feel like we've turned a new leaf on that. How are you feeling? How I guess how are you feeling about AI and its role with with copywriting or or not with copywriting right now?

AI As Tool, Not Replacement

Nikki Thompson 6:27

Yeah, I great question. Um, I at first had the kind of I'm always a late adopter to things, I will admit. So I was a little bit like, I don't even want to deal with this. And um, I might differentiate myself as like a no AI copywriter, you know, like it's um, but as I've I've I've played with it and I'm like, you know what, this is a great tool, but I truly believe it will not replace me and the level of like messaging strategy that clients need. Now there's always a level of clients who are, you know, going to, and I'm thinking kind of like a web design client, right? If they're going through a web design process, a little bit lower budget client, um, they're gonna probably DIY their website content and probably use AI tools. And, you know, good, that's great for them. It's probably better than what they could have done on their on their own. Um, but I think there's always a level of clients who want the to hire the experts and who want that guidance that, you know, you can get some good information out of or some good um products out of ChatGPT, but like how do you know that that's right for your brand? Um, and so really that like discernment and that expertise is I think what people are gonna continue to hire for. Um, so that's kind of my I I feel really good. My business has been growing. Um, I am signing on more designers as part of my kind of business model and and helping serve their clients. Um I offer two different tiers. So I do kind of a lower ticket, like I'll edit what the client prepares. Um, and then I also offer an intensive where we're starting from the ground up and doing like the story brand experience, um, you know, doing that brand brand messaging foundation as well as website content, like truly custom website content.

Josh Hall 8:10

So you started to answer my next question, which I want to know from your perspective, what is what separates an expert copywriter versus just chat GPT copywriting? You mentioned discernment. Um, what are the other aspects to that that you know, if you're like selling copywriting and somebody says to you, well, I could just use chat GPT, what are you, what what's the I guess what are those, what are the high-level items that make it really clear that this is different than what ChatGPT and any other elephant is.

Using AI For Research And Refinement

Nikki Thompson 8:42

I mean, I would think, okay, it it revolves around for me, like clarity and the strategy. So, like one, is it is it crystal clear what you offer, who you serve, what the value is, like that type of clarity. And that's kind of where the story brand always has like really filled a big bucket in terms of my world and frameworks. Um, and then the other piece is like that brand personality. So, like, um, you know, you might be, you might have a really clear message as a dentist, but like, do you sound like every other dentist out there? So there's that differentiation in terms of your brand messaging. I think that's like like the kind of the two big opportunities is the clarity and um brand personality. Um and in terms of, you know, if you've got a lower, you maybe more of a startup or somebody who um is just a little bit more strapped um budget-wise, um, and they're going to DIY their content, um, you know, AI can be a great tool. I think that again, it comes down to discernment of like, does this fit my brand and is this crystal clear? Because it can put out some things that like sound really good. Um, and you can be like, wow, it has all, I have all this content about what I do. But like we need to refine it and make sure it fits your brand. Um, I can kind of follow up with that in terms of like how I use AI as a writer personally. Um, I think it's a great tool on the beginning side of writing in terms of um, I like to like review testimonials for clients. So I'll, you know, when I start working with a client, I'll go check out their Google reviews. If they're they've got any other online profiles that I've worked with a lot of home builders, you know, have reviews on house. I'll pull all those out. Um, and then I can use AI to help me pull up great customer sentiments or headlines based on the context of what you know people are saying about them. Um, so that's a really fun, you know, use for me as a writer, I I think through writing. So I am always gonna be drafting content um myself and then, you know, using AI potentially as like as a refinement tool for me to make sure we're, you know, making things skimmable and as concise as we can be.

Josh Hall 10:51

How can we, as web designers and designers working for clients, make our words less AI-y? And we're using Chat GPT, you know, like I know um one thing I've really challenged myself with this year in particular, and and moving into 26, this will come out in early 26, but so this year, I'm really gonna lean more into story and stuff that AI can't touch. Um, is that a part of what you're thinking about? What are some other areas that yeah, can separate us, our copywriting as humans from AI?

Making AI Outputs Sound Human

Nikki Thompson 11:24

Yeah. I mean, I would encourage you, because when you when you give AI a prompt, um, it can be pulling from a number of different sources to create whatever output it gives you. So you don't necessarily know. I think there's, you know, kind of this gray area in our industry is like, what is copyrightable? Um, and what can do we really own if we use AI? Um, my recommendation, and I guess how I have used it at times in terms of a refinement tool. So, like, get out your ideas on paper in your Google Doc first, um, and then use it to refine that. Um, I think it's a maybe a good starting point so that really what you're putting in is truly your ideas, your concepts. Um, that would be kind of like one recommendation I would have. And then, of course, storytelling is huge. Like a lot of the businesses that I work with do not have um case studies on on their website, right? So, like they may, especially for established businesses, like you've been in business for a while and you've you've helped so many clients, um, but like you don't tell talk about that transformation enough. And so capturing case studies is is a huge um you know bonus add to your messaging.

Josh Hall 12:37

Uh tell me about refinement and more specifically, if you're down to get like into the nitty-gritty on this, I'm very curious about prompts nowadays because I more often than not hate the Chat GPT refinement. And I'm not I'm I'm just using ChatGPT right now. I'm not using Perplexity or Claude or some of the other ones yet. But the problem with that I've found with refinement, and maybe it's on me for just not a detailed enough prompt, but I'll write something that sounds like me, but I know there's punctuation issues and it could be cleaned up. It's a little rambly. But when I ask ChatGPT to refine it, suddenly it's very ChatGPT-ish. There, it's like unleashing the power of blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I would never say that. And then I have to talk like talk like me. And it just still like I almost, I guess I'm saying what I'm what the problem that I've found is refinement almost adds more work to my plate sometimes. Okay. So how do you how do you go about refinement specifically with like prompts? Is it super detailed? Is your is your chat GPT more wired like you, like knows how to talk like you? How does that work?

Editing, Condensing, And Prompts

Nikki Thompson 13:39

No, I I mean I don't feel like I have it like trained in any way. Um, when I start with a new project, I would probably like open up a new chat. And um, like I said, if I would have a section um for you know web content, I'm writing web content and you know, maybe it's I've written four sentences and like I need to get this down to two, right? Like we need it to be short, punchy. Um, and so I've I've found success in using it to refine text in that way. And I'm not giving it any special prompt. I'm just like help help me shorten this, help me refine this. Um, but I might also be, you know, given my background, doing a lot more heavy editing myself as well. So um that's something that I haven't, I do know, you know, a number of designers that I've talked with recently have um, especially, you know, as you're a newer web designer, like need some resources for your DIY clients. So that's gonna be in the works for me in in 2026, is like, how can I help those clients who are gonna do a lot of work themselves to get them a good start, at least.

Josh Hall 14:41

So with your refinement tactics, it's a lot about condensing, consolidating. Um how I know one thing that I've tried, I've had some success with this, some not, which is like if I wrote like 2,500 words and I wanted to get it down to a thousand, or sometimes I'll take a transcript from a podcast episode or something and try to make that more of a readable article or newsletter. Um, I still find that it adds words. Do you know of a of a copywriting trick for Chat GPT or any of these LLMs to basically just not add the unleashed or authentic, you know, like like stuff like that?

Nikki Thompson 15:21

Just like really big, like fancy words that you're gonna make it sound smart.

Josh Hall 15:26

Yes, yes.

Nikki Thompson 15:27

I mean, not for AI. I'm I guess I would say potentially like having some a description of what your brand voice is. So if it's like super conversational, eighth grade really reading level, you know, some of those type of things, like that might be helpful as part of your prompt or however you train your um chat system. But that's yeah, that's kind of interesting that you know it's it's adding things. And I think that's where, again, it it is a tool. It's never something that you're going to utilize, like copy and paste. Like you're gonna want to review it to make sure that this fits the brand.

Josh Hall 16:05

I think that's the big key there too, is um not to rely on it to be like the the the final editor. Like it really is, like you mentioned. I mean, I I feel like in the beginning of the process it can be great, and then maybe like mid-refining process, but maybe not final refining process, unless it's just dealing with punctuation. But even then I I rarely trust it because it still seems to add stuff in.

Nikki Thompson 16:30

Right. Yeah, I would I would kind of agree for my process. I mean, again, as a writer, like I write everything out to get my ideas and thoughts organized. Um, and then if I need help shortening sections or, you know, coming up with alternate headline ideas, like that's where I'm kind of using it in that like mid-mid-range of revisions. Um, and then of course, like going through everything again, you know, myself directly for for final approval.

Process, Workflow, And Scale

Josh Hall 16:57

So you mentioned you're kind of a late adopter. I'm curious, has that changed for you over the past couple of years with how integrated AI has become, particularly when it comes to copywriting?

Nikki Thompson 17:09

Um I mean, I I think I have a good feel of like how I like to use it now in terms of like what steps um it can do as part of my process. Um, I don't know that I think that's just kind of a personality thing, is like I'll let other people work out the kinks um and I'm gonna like do what I know until it becomes a little bit more like easier to understand for me. So that might just be like a personality flaw. But um I what really gets me jazzed lately is like process and workflow. And so I use Monday now to kind of like keep track of all of my steps. And like, yes, I can use Chat GPT as like, you know, to handle a few of those steps in my process. Um, but that is that's really what streamlines things for me is just like refining my process. I write websites for clients, like that's that's what I do. So I I write 20, 30 websites a year. Um, so I get to go through this process like at scale and really, you know, refine and tweak every time I go through it.

Ground-Up Copy Vs Copy Edits

Josh Hall 18:13

What's what do you I was gonna ask what's harder, but that may not be a fair question. What do you enjoy more? Ground up writing, like when a brand's starting fresh and you're doing everything from the start? Or do you enjoy taking what's already there, what's already established, and building or changing and tweaking that?

Nikki Thompson 18:30

Yeah, that's a good question. So, like, you know, my business has entirely been ground up copywriting, fully done for client. Um, up until this fall, I launched a kind of copy edit service. So I, you know, got a number, a couple of designers with feedback on like, hey, we've got clients who are gonna use AI as part of their, like, they don't want to hire a copywriter, but we internally know that it's gonna need a little bit of editing. And so that's where I come in. Um, or the client, we're working off their existing web copy, which is still, you know, generally accurate, but we need a little bit of a refresh in terms of conversion best practices. Um, and honestly, like the copy edits have been really fun because they are quick. They're um they're kind of low. I don't know what to say, it's a lower budget, lower ticket service. Um, and so the expectations are a little bit lower, but like I can really overdeliver. Um, and and I might need to kind of like work on like how much I do for the client when I do those. But um I don't know. I I'm enjoying both. The the ground up copywriting is is always fun because I get to really know the the client in depth and not only their business, but them as well. It's usually the owner that I'm working with. Um and so I get to know them pretty intimately. And um I like what turning what you know previously can be like one of the most painful parts of the web design process, which is the content, into sometimes what's what's the most funnest part. Like it can be like one of the most rewarding parts of the process where they really feel like, wow, this really captured who we are.

Josh Hall 20:01

Yeah, that's great. I I agree. It's like um when when you have help clarifying your message, it does go from daunting to to fun. It can be, should be. So good on you for that. And I feel like it makes sense as a especially with small businesses and web designers. We're just we're all in our own businesses. And I don't know if you have struggle writing your own copy, but it's just the classic thing of like our own work is always the hardest. So I feel like even professional web designers, I actually have learned to like get critiques and and get feedback from other professional web designers because I can't trust myself. I'm like I'm too in the in the glass. How are you? Do you do you feel like that as well? Where like when it comes to your own stuff, it's harder than way harder than your place.

Defining Brand Voice And Clarity

Nikki Thompson 20:48

Yes. I mean, I dragged my feet on this in January. Yeah, gosh, it's it's December. In January. So the beginning of this year, um, 2025, I should say, I had redone my messaging to really focus on um partnerships with with web designers. And so I dragged my feet on doing that just because I could not like find the time or you know, what I what do I really want to say? Um, and it would have been super helpful. So I think next time I go with that process, I'm gonna bring somebody else in to help me um kind of co-collaborate on clarifying that message.

Josh Hall 21:20

Yeah. That's awesome. It's just always good to know that other creatives also can't work on their own stuff. Or it's just like it uh you get glaring like, duh, why did I do that? Like I would advise myself not to do that. I don't know why I did that.

Nikki Thompson 21:33

Right.

Josh Hall 21:34

Right. What you talk about brand voice. It's interesting, branding is so interesting to me because it's such, I feel like it's such an all-encompassing thing. Um, it's the personality of the people behind the business. Yes, it's logo, design, and colors and feelings, it's the type of marketing, it's obviously copy and messaging. So when it comes to like specifically copy and messaging, what when you explain to clients a brand voice, what is that to you?

Nikki Thompson 22:03

Yeah. Um, I mean, it it's the way in which we communicate. So like I think clarity is always the foundation of we need to have a clear message, and that's always kind of step one. Um, and then I would see, you know, kind of that brand voice personality being something that we can sprinkle in once we are clear in what our core message is. Um, and so sometimes that's for for some businesses, it's really clear because the the owner, especially if they're a solopreneur, the owner has a really distinct personality. They're really quirky and fun or whatever, whatever it is, like that can be um like really, really fun to like sprinkle in their messaging. Um, for a lot of businesses, I work with a lot of professional services service providers, so like home builders and accounting firms. And so there isn't as much of a like a um a brand personality in the sense of like uh really strong messaging in that way. But really, I think that the the core piece is the clarity for me.

StoryBrand Framework Explained

Josh Hall 23:05

So, what is the the the core message? Is that a mission statement? Is it a vision statement? What do you like? Yeah, yeah. So message.

Nikki Thompson 23:14

Okay. I I'm just gonna show my book here. So building a story brand. I don't know if you oh, I'm gonna zoom out. Um, so the building a story brand by Donald Miller. This is the book um that the story brand, brand script, like marketing framework is based on. Um, and so it's like a seven-part structure of you define who the character is. This is this can apply to any storyline, any movie, any book. We define who the character is, what the problem is, what they want, what the problem that's standing in their way of what they want. Um, and then there's a couple different layers to that, how they feel about it, why it isn't right. Um, we introduce a guide, which is then the business owner. Um, we we create a three-step plan to help provide that clarity of like what kind of steps are in this process. We call the user to action. So that's like the that's where I say brand clarity in terms of their messaging, is based on that brand script framework. Gotcha. And I've walked just about every type of service-based business through it. So it's really versatile in terms of um applying it to you know a business model. But I think that's a great place to start. And then when clients have that, um, they can, you know, create new brand scripts for different product lines or services, or um it can be a really kind of flexible framework to utilize.

Applying StoryBrand To Pages

Josh Hall 24:33

It's funny, uh, Story Brand. I mean, it rocked my world when I read the first iteration of it a few years back. It's something I recommend in my business course. It's like a must for web designers. Even if you're not getting into copywriting, it's important to know the framework. But I will say for anyone who hasn't read it yet, heads up, it's gonna ruin like every movie for you because you're gonna go, oh, that's the character, that's the hero, that's the guide, that's their internal challenge, that's their external challenge. Ah, uh so just a heads up. Um, how do you apply that to different okay? I love that you're a website copywriter specifically, because we can get nerdy on the actual websites. How do you apply that to like a home page versus a service page in particular? Because this is the big challenge I've found. Because I'll just give you my take real quick on a homepage, which is I've really leaned into home pages being quite brief and very scannable and more of a hub to get you to the where you want to go for more detail, which makes the story brand framework really hard because that can quickly lead to a lot of copy. Um, maybe, maybe not. But how do you apply that to different pages on the website? Is there like a version of a home page for it and a version of an about page and a version of a uh service page? How does how do you apply that to all different pages?

Nikki Thompson 25:51

Yeah, I would say um, you know, on most pages, you're addressing the challenge that the client is having. So on the homepage, I would have usually that, you know, the header areas has that who you who you are, um, who you serve, what you offer, what the benefit is, what the next, what the call to action is, right? What's the next step in the process? Um, so you know, just on that upper area, they can get that clarity. Um and then as they scroll down, we're gonna address some challenges that they might be having. Um, and then of course, you've got like kind of an introduction to the business. You typically have like a little service overview, and then that they can, you know, dig into more of your services there and in the detail. Um, in terms of like service pages, um I usually go into a little bit more um detail with what kind of challenges um they're facing and kind of like some of the nuance of that context of where they're at currently, and then what you know, whatever type of service it is, like what investing in this can do for them and kind of like imagining the future as well. Um, so I mean, there's a little bit more, I would say service pages are a little bit more in detail, of course. Um, and then the about page is a really great opportunity to share, of course, it's a humanizing page. So share the owner story and the why behind the business because people want to, you know, they don't want to work with a faceless company, like they want to meet you as the owner and kind of what you're what you stand for too. So people kind of have a misconception that Storybrand is only focused on the client story and not the like, oh, it doesn't matter, you know, about me or any of that or who's behind the company. And that's just simply not true. Um, but we certainly lead with the client story because that's what's most engaging to um, you know, a website visitor is talking about their challenges, your ideal user.

Homepages, Services, And Balance

Josh Hall 27:37

So that's that's the trick, I think, for home pages in particular, is like how much to balance talking about the customer versus how much to balance talking about the business. Um some of those sections you mentioned there seem to be pretty a pretty even split between like the challenge, what you solve, but then also services and what the business provides. So do do you does that change frequently depending on the different industries you're working with? Or are you pretty do you pretty much have like a framework that you follow specifically for home pages?

Nikki Thompson 28:09

Yeah, I mean, I always like to, I always like to, when I start a project, look at some other websites for inspiration to kind of like content map out, you know, what I'm gonna have on their homepage. So there might be, you know, different sections that we need based on the type of industry that they're in. Of course, that's customized. Um, but I think that there is kind of an underlying like sense of what's what's helpful in terms of you know, talking about challenges, talking about the future, um, what is the process to getting started? Um, but it's flexible in terms of where those are placed.

Josh Hall 28:41

Yeah. This is I recently redid um WebdesignerPro.com, and that was the challenge that I faced is like I was trying to get the problems and challenges in there, but yeah, for whatever reason, I just struggle with that one. Um mainly because I went from having a one-page website which had everything, to I have tiers in my community courses, community and coaching. And they all kind of have like a different, not outcome, but a different journey depending on where folks are. So I found that to be challenging on like what to address on the home page and then what to address on the courses page, what to address on the community page, and then what to address on the coaching page. I'm actually still working that out. I I got to the point where I was like, all right, I can't overthink this anymore. Like I can't, I just gotta launch it. It's not great, but it's good right now. I'll get it to great eventually.

Through Lines And Offer Focus

Nikki Thompson 29:33

But that's kind of where I'm here's what I would typically say if if we're struggling with or the business owner is struggling with, like I've I have a lot of different services or I serve a lot of different industries, um, and we don't just have like one kind of service, then is there is there a through line, right? Is there like what's what's the top store, the top level story that we can tell that applies to most or all? Um, that's one direction I would go. The other direction is if one of your offers is what you want to lead with, if that's like the entry point into working with you, then you know, lead with that messaging. You could lead with that service. And then the other offers are something that they can get introduced to you as they become part of your as they take that first step, you know.

Josh Hall 30:17

That's a great advice. That through line, what what are some examples of that? Would it be maybe an internal challenge that could be a good through line? Um, or vice versa, more of an external, like a quick win.

Nikki Thompson 30:30

I mean, uh what is what applies to most of your audience or offers? So um, you know, maybe it's a little bit more of a generic message. And that that's kind of the challenge, right? Is to be able to speak to if you want to speak to all of what you do, that homepage is gonna be a little bit more generic. Um, maybe keep it a little bit shorter because we don't need to go into ton of detail. We just need to direct the user to the area that they need, right? Um, so there's definitely some you know decisions that need to be made, of course, in terms of web strate strategy, in terms of where content needs to be placed and what message we're leading with, what does the homepage look like? Are we just directing people um to where they need to go? The other thing I would say in terms of like repeating content, um, if you kind of had a kind of a simplified offer, um, you're doing like for the I work with a lot of luxury home builders, right? There, that's that's what they do is they build luxury homes. So like there's kind of one offer, we have one process um page for them. And the, you know, if you're optimizing each page, you might have users that come to your service page and don't see your homepage, right? Like they they entered through your service page. So I wouldn't be shy to have a lot of that messaging. Um, it's not gonna be the same exact thing, but like you know, talk about the problems again and the the challenges that your ideal client is facing because they might not have seen that on a different page before.

Josh Hall 31:57

Yeah, that's uh that's great advice. Always um a good reminder, too, that is as important as home pages are, they're not always seen. I do feel like so many. I think it's natural you just focus on your homepage. Designers, small business owners, everybody. And then service page becomes kind of an afterthought often. But what a good reminder to make sure to focus on your ancillary pages because yeah, especially from an SEO perspective, those are the ones that are often gonna get picked up first. Or if it's a a particular sales page or landing page, I'm guilty of that, like kind of given that afterthought. I've I've got to do better at that. I'm just calling myself out publicly.

Not Everyone Enters On Homepage

Nikki Thompson 32:36

And I feel like that's like that's like um, I don't know, once you once you kind of see and you're analyzing your website, you know, every six months, every year, and you're looking at like where people are coming in, like is that page served, is that page optimized? Um, is it pay not only for SEO, but like for conversion? We have all of the messaging that we need on that page to help people take that next step. Um, that's what kind of gets me excited too about the work I'm doing and what what I really want to do more of in the future is um I write a lot of websites and then and of course work through designers. And so then kind of the project ends and and everyone moves on. Um, but there's a lot of opportunity to kind of revisit messaging, um, you know, refresh design refreshes, I would think, you know, at least yearly, because I feel like as business owners, you take so many like quarter turns that um it's not like like entirely wrong, but like we just need to like tweak it a little bit to really fit, you know, your new direction. And so um that's where I'd kind of get excited about where the future of what I'd like to do as well.

Josh Hall 33:42

Yeah. It's funny you mentioned that before this call, one of my members sent me an audio clip and said that she feels like she finally she feels like she's living her purpose with her business. And I thought, and I've never really heard it phrased like that. Yeah. My most of my copy is about building your business to have freedom and the lifestyle you love. But I haven't really had purpose in there. And I thought that was interesting. That gave me a thought of like, hmm, maybe I should start incorporating that in the in the copy somehow.

Nikki Thompson 34:13

Right. I think that there's there's always opportunity, right, to like dig a little bit deeper. Um, and sometimes it just comes with, I mean, the more established bus the businesses that I work with, like the deeper we can go because they know so many nuances of what their clients are struggling with or what kind of situations they're coming in with. So we can really like gather a lot of that detail. But um, especially if you're newer and just, I mean, just in like your business's trajectory, there's always opportunity to kind of re-look at like, okay, is there we're not entirely wrong with like with the message of freedom, but like, is purpose a really even more um deeper type of message that's gonna go farther for us?

Josh Hall 34:53

Well, again, it gets back to the whole like story brand framework of an external versus internal feeling, like purpose is internal, freedom is external. So both equally huge, but yeah, that's interesting. I do like a good challenge for sir to think about those internal feelings and the external feelings or situations as well.

Nikki Thompson 35:15

Right. Yeah.

Josh Hall 35:17

Interesting. Um with copywriting on sales pages, big question everyone wants to know right now, because I get this a lot. Short or long? Nikki, go your thoughts. Short or long sales page.

Refreshing Sites And CRO Opportunities

Nikki Thompson 35:35

Mid-level? I mean, I I write a lot of um core like website content. So um as much as I want to say I absolutely can write sales pages, I don't have as much like repeated exercise in them and tracking what works. So I don't know if I can speak with any expertise. I write a lot of like, you know, poem about services. If we need some service detail pages, but if we're talking like yeah, sales pages for one offer, it's a limited time thing. We've got all of this like language in there. Um I think overall, if the content is engaging and if it speaks to your ideal user and they're on that page, like they will scroll. Um, you know, you've got headlines, they they can they can skim through content. Like I think that's kind of just goes to best practices, but I don't know that there is a right or wrong to that. That's probably not what you wanted to hear. Sorry.

Josh Hall 36:36

No, that's I'm just wondering if you see any trends with that. And I I do think it depends from what I see on whether it's a paid service or a free, like a free sign up. I have a colleague who shared some of her um ad strategy recently, and she had a like a free masterclass that they did two different, like an A-B test for. One was a really short page, and one was a really long uh sign-up page. And the short one converted way better. Oh it was also to a colder ad audience. So maybe like a warm audience that's ready to invest several thousand dollars or or even more. That's probably I would imagine, better to have the the long media info. Um my my rule of thumb is to to try to like almost do two versions of the same page, like have the short stuff and have an option to sign up. And then if you want more, there's more, whether it's an FAQ box or whether it's actual sections.

Measuring Copy Impact And Language

Nikki Thompson 37:35

Right. I would say from my like personal experience on sales pages, what what bugs me as a consumer, as a user, is it is when I have to scroll down for so long to get to that. What is the price? So for me, if there was a midpoint where you've got or or even just higher up where you have clearly what the offer is and what the price is, you know, if it is a paid offer. Um and then, you know, sure, have some more sales language that can follow after that again because maybe they're still considering, but at least they're not um I often get frustrated on super long sales pages because I do want to truly get to the what's included. That's just like maybe my buyer type is detail um on what's included. And then I can think more about like, you know, reading through your testimonials and all of that.

Josh Hall 38:25

That's a good point. There's a really good example of this. Uh, there's a guy named Patrick Rosendez who I've been connected with. He's um he called he called himself, I had a consult with him a while back to help him launch his community, and uh he called himself the the Josh of the Um kitchen architect design world because he like does courses and coaching. And his website is patrickrezendez.com, if anyone's curious. The reason I mentioned that is he is very like right up front about his pricing, and he has that through multiple sections in his pages. So it's like super clear, there's no ambiguity, there's no lead up to it. Because some people really build the even the story brand framework and really articulate the challenges and everything that way. When you get to the price, it feels different than seeing a price and bouncing. But he uh his approach is actually like really up front. Here's my pricing, and then there's more detail if you want. So it's just interesting because I feel like all this, what's challenging, is like it all can work. Like pricing right up front can work, it can also bounce people, pricing a level back and making you really understand the value before you see it, that can also work, but it can also drive people crazy.

Nikki Thompson 39:36

So right, you know, I have always thought, and it's kind of I feel like it's kind of is what you hear is a best practice in terms of display pricing. And I have that on my website. Um, but I was just talking to um someone the other day, and I was looking at one of my web designers that I work with who is selling $20,000 websites. Like she doesn't have pricing on her website. Um Um, and she works in this luxury space. And so I'm like, you know, y you want to say like this is what works and this, but you know, she doesn't. And so, but she's booking out. So I don't know. I I think it's, you know, a lot of connections too. And um I kind of like that clarity, but I think potentially for um certain industries, it just isn't as common. Of course, like in the home building space, you can't put a number to a custom home. So um her audience might be used to that. Like it you wouldn't see a number on a website. Um, anyways, just kind of an interesting example where to price or not, to publicly phone's pricing or not.

Sales Pages: Length And Pricing

Josh Hall 40:43

I know it isn't independent, it is a it depends situation. And I think a lot of it depends too on whether it's product ties and it's like here's the package, it is a like flat fee kind of thing versus custom. Absolutely. I I do love ranges. I mean, I that's what I teach in my business course. Yeah, just give ranges. Like if your site's like this style, this is the range. It starts at this, it goes up to this. If your site's this, you know, size with this functionality, it's gonna be in this range. And then you have that way, there's like price-ish, and then you can customize it from there. That's that's my go-to.

Nikki Thompson 41:15

Yep, yeah, that's a nice way to do it. When I worked with um a number of accounting firms, another kind of like creative way that we displayed pricing was um giving anonymous but like specific customer type and their investment level. So, like, you know, customer A is uh roofer and he has five employees. And so, you know, that kind of ties into like, okay, how much how much payroll are they running? So just kind of like different examples of what the details are, um, and then like what their investment level is in terms of monthly accounting services. I thought that was kind of a unique way to feature that and not be tied to because your your you know business makeup is gonna be a little bit different.

Josh Hall 41:59

Yeah, that's interesting. That's great. It's kind of like a almost like an avatar example, like a customer avatar price point. That is interesting. But you know what's so funny is like one of my one of my good buddies, Jason Grazia, who has a site called uh Swift Sites, is completely productized. It's four thousand dollars. And he could absolutely have the pricing on his website, but he doesn't. It's on the end of a hour sales call. So and it's productized. But he's also made like over two million dollars in five years doing this model, so that works too. Sure. Yeah, it all works. I feel like at the end of the day, it's like just do what you do what you want to do, do what feels good to you.

Nikki Thompson 42:41

Right. Well, I think a part of it too is like um like A B testing. I love that idea. I want to start doing more of that with the designers that I have and some new partnerships is like, okay, how can we not just build the website and move on, but like, how can we kind of stay involved in helping them track their growth and um really testing out what does work? Um, you know, we're we're doing our best with what we see as best practices in terms of, you know, content and design and layout, but um, testing it is what I I um see as a kind of an exciting like next step.

Josh Hall 43:14

Yeah, I feel like you're probably entering into the CRO world, the converse rate optimization world. Because with copy, like you said, it isn't done. I mean, it's done for a little bit, but it should be revisited for sure, just like website designs as a whole should be. So I do feel like that's the from what I'm seeing with a lot of my members of Pro, it's it's the next evolution for folks who want or at around a certain point and feel good about their build services and support services. But when they're thinking about growth plans and retainers and recurring revenue and ongoing work, uh conversive rate optimization is a great next option. And it's quite broad, just like copywriting could be very uh an umbrella term. Um too can CRO. So that's pretty exciting. It's something I want to kind of give more examples of. Uh yeah.

Nikki Thompson 44:03

I feel like with messaging too, um, you know, it's I don't have a lot of like hard numbers to tie to the work that I've done. And so that's where I'm like, that's the opportunity. Um, and maybe it's kind of doing some test clients, and like I'm gonna stay in your system and your um look at your analytics, and we're gonna like make some tweaks to be able to show like kind of growth that that can be done. Um, maybe some of the designers that I work with like track that, um, but it just doesn't always get trickled down. So that's kind of an exciting like, how can I share some of the impact that we can make with messaging?

Josh Hall 44:39

Well, I know a pro tip that I've learned from with my stuff is when people enter my world and join my community. I am have really learned to like listen how they talk about their business. And I know my copy is working on a level because people are often saying, I want that freedom, or I finally got that freedom. So, like that, my my tagline of of building a representative business to get the freedom and lifestyle you want. Yeah, the result for me to know that copy is working is the people saying it, you know, once they they go through it. Um but again, that's awesome. It goes to that, like maybe there's an internal challenge I'm skipping over, which is the feeling of um oh, what what what did I say earlier?

Nikki Thompson 45:23

Yeah, fulfilling your purpose.

Josh Hall 45:25

Purpose, yeah, that feeling of purpose, yeah.

AB Testing And Ongoing Optimization

Nikki Thompson 45:27

Yep, for sure.

Josh Hall 45:29

That's interesting. It is, yeah, it's hard to measure copy, isn't it? Because no one's gonna like go to a website and say, like, you're a header, got me. I that you know, like you know, like no one's gonna say it exactly like that. Uh why that could have a huge impact on them if if there's like a literally a word that like, ooh, yeah, sends a tingle that uh that makes you want to you know feel comfortable and move forward.

Nikki Thompson 45:52

It's always fun doing like when I do interviews with business owners and you know, I am trying to download as much information from them and ask them about their client experience and you know, past exam examples of clients that they've worked with. Um and like they're just talking, but like they'll say something, and I'm like, holy crap, that's the headline, like that's it right there. And they didn't even know, or they, you know, they're just kind of sharing some things that they've heard or that they feel about the project. Um, so it's really fun to like kind of pull out those things that are um kind of glossed over, but like it's it's really powerful sentiment that's gonna work um for their brand.

Josh Hall 46:32

Yeah, no, I love that. Um, in sales calls, I learned to listen for like keywords if if they said something like, I want a modern site, or I want a fresh site, or I want something that represents me better. I can feel proud of them, like, ooh, that's usually what I would put in the proposal. Pro tip for anyone who goes from sales call to proposal, which is like just regurgitate what they said and they didn't realize they said. So reflect it back to them. Reflective, yeah, reflect it back, yeah.

Nikki Thompson 47:01

Absolutely.

Josh Hall 47:03

That's great. Awesome. Well, I know we uh we had some issues getting on here, but by golly, Nikki, I'm so glad this worked out. Some really, really good copywriting tips here. A couple last questions for you, but I want to give you a chance to uh tell folks where they should check you out because you are a copywriter partner for web designers.

Nikki Thompson 47:20

Yeah, sounds good. Um, yeah, you can visit my website. It's claritybranding.co. Um, I'm most active on Instagram at Clarity Branding Co. Um or threads. I'm really liking threads lately. Um it's kind of fun over there. Yeah.

Josh Hall 47:35

I have uh, I am not. Change my mind. Change my mind on threads.

Social Platforms, Community, And Reach

Nikki Thompson 47:40

So for me, um, not being a designer and writer, like it is it is just text-based. I mean, you can post images, but it's kind of almost like Twitter. But I feel like for kind of at least this the algorithm I'm in is like all creatives and people in the brand space. But I'll post something and like I'll get random people liking it. Um, I do think it's almost sometimes like keywords that you're using. Like I posted something about my honeybuck lead form. Um, and so I got some like people commenting on that. And so I don't know, it's just fun. It's been fun to play with. I'll just kind of like more stream of consciousness, like something I'm working on. Um, whereas Instagram or like LinkedIn, you know, you have to feel like you have to plan it out a little bit and like type it onto my computer and make sure I spelled everything correctly and have a little bit more thought and strategy behind it. But yeah, I'm on threads too.

Josh Hall 48:30

No, that makes total sense. Thinking copywriting first, that threads would be a good option, especially because the the barrier to to posting content is just text if you want it to be uh right, right. Okay, I'll give it another go here. I'm not like massively into social. I am liking LinkedIn a lot more, specifically because of that. Like I do feel like Facebook particular is like, good lordy, what's going on? It's like it's a complete disaster. Um noise and just like, why am I getting this? It just not like my algorithm cannot be more off.

Nikki Thompson 49:02

Um I feel like every time I open up Facebook, it's like something to like shock me and be like, oh my gosh, what is happening?

Josh Hall 49:09

For sure, for sure.

Nikki Thompson 49:12

I'm like, stop showing people. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you go on Facebook.

Josh Hall 49:16

Oh, Facebook is like, I am going to trigger you. You will be politicized. I know you just wanted to see how your family's doing, but you're gonna be you are gonna be fuming after the next few minutes. Yeah, that's that's for sure.

Nikki Thompson 49:29

Right. I love this idea of I've I've been hearing this a lot, and I feel like I've always been I I feel like I've been in like power save mode. Um, I work my business part-time. I have three young kids. I've been a stay-at-home mom for the last six, seven years. And um I feel like I've always been in power save mode. Like I do client work, and like if I have time for anything else, cool, but usually not. Um and I I've heard this term lately, like social media optional. And I'm like, yes, I think that is like where everyone wants to be, where you've got an email list and you've got um, you know, maybe some other networks communities you're part of, but social media is truly like when you want to have a little fun and post something, but I mean it can be effective for a lot of people, but yeah.

Josh Hall 50:15

Yeah, heck yeah. I'm all about that. Yeah. I mean, I've learned that being a community builder and uh my community is five years old now. One of the common through lines to use your terminology for pro is a lot of people do say they're just like they're just overwhelmed on social media. And it's so noisy, and it's it's just like, especially uh in web design. I'm not sure if you're a part of any Facebook groups, but web designer groups typically, especially if they're a big size, it's just not a comfortable place to post. Um and with a trusted community that's smaller and intentional, it's it just there's a level of comfort there and safety, um, which are words that I've kind of um key words that I've found a lot of members saying for for Web Design Pro. So I do think that's where I think that's where things are headed even more from what I see in both the web design world and the community building world, which is people are really interested in their their tribe. They're they're like small group of trusted people in a couple different areas of the internet. So I do from a copywriting perspective, I think it's even more opportunity to go with the whole like vibe attracts your tribe kind of thing, which speaks to what you're doing with figuring out the brand voice, figuring out the core message, and and that's gonna attract the right people, I imagine.

Nikki Thompson 51:30

Right. Yep. For sure.

Josh Hall 51:32

Awesome. Well, Nikki, I want to throw it to you. Um, to wrap this up here. What would be like a quick win? What would be a quick copywriting win that you would advise everyone to look at their website, whether it's a service page or a home page? What what's a quick win we can we can look at doing this week when this podcast episode comes out?

Quick Win: Rewrite Your Headlines

Nikki Thompson 51:51

Okay, I have one for you. Even though you're putting me on the spot, I have one, which is do your headlines tell a complete story? So I want you to go to any page and just read the headlines. Do they get a sense of what you do, who it's for, what the value is, you know, why they should care. Like, or if it's like if you're using labels as your headlines, like services and testimonial, you know, if you it's just like strictly labels, like that doesn't tell a story, right? Like your headlines need to pack some value. So it doesn't tell a complete story. Check your headlines.

Josh Hall 52:25

For every page about services home and everything.

Nikki Thompson 52:29

I mean, like your contact page might not tell much of a story, but but like, yeah, your home page, your services about like I I I want you to tell get a sense that if somebody lands and just skims, do they get an actual accurate picture of what we do here and and the transformation you can provide?

Josh Hall 52:48

Great challenge. There it is. Everyone, get on it. Well, Nikki, thank you so much. Again, your website, ClarityBranding.co. And then you have, I think, um like a masterclass, right?

Nikki Thompson 52:59

Yeah, I have a um like a 20-minute uh masterclass that you can go um and it's how to tenx the value of your websites with copywriting. And um that's right at the header of the website. You can opt in for that and check it out.

Josh Hall 53:11

Sweet. I'll make sure we have that linked as well, because that's that slash masterclass, it looks like. So we'll have that link to the show notes for this one as well. All right, Nikki. Well, thank you so much. I'm so glad we got to finally get this worked out. Um But uh yeah, I really appreciate you and appreciate your and all your insight.

Nikki Thompson 53:27

Thank you so much, Josh.

Links, Masterclass, And Closing

Josh Hall 53:30

Alrighty, my friend. Well, I do help you uh help you. I do hope you enjoyed this one, but I do hope that this one helped you with words. Since apparently I can't do words, so I I really do. I hope this helps with your copywriting tips again. Uh, in the wake of AI, it doesn't mean that it's destroying an up-ending, well, it is upending industries, but it doesn't mean that it's alleviating jobs, especially if you are somebody who is using it and not afraid of it. So I hope this one helps. Drop us a comment, dot tell.co slash 414, and then you can connect with Nikia. All the links that we have over there. Claritybranding.co is where to go if you would like to um connect with her. She's got that free masterclass for you again. All those links are at dot.co slash 414. She's also active on Instagram at ClarityBraining Co if you want to connect with her. And again, thanks for joining, my friend. Make sure to stay subscribed because we've got some doozies ahead. And um things are changing, but by golly, a lot of things are staying the same. So I feel still very confident and very good for web designers in 2026 and beyond. All right, friends, we're in this together. I'll see you on the next one.