420 - Staying Solo (but Not Alone) with Maggie Patterson

I think there’s a misunderstanding of the term “solopreneuer” in that, when you think about that term, you probably think about being “alone.” At least I did.

Until this conversation.

I had a light bulb moment in this chat with Maggie Patterson, author of the book “Staying Solo” with this very idea that you can be a solopreneur while not being an alonepreneur.

Some of the happiest, most balanced and most profitable entrepreneurs and web biz owners I know are somewhere in the middle of alone and owner.

That’s the sweet spot we’re diving into in this one.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/420

Transcript

Solo Doesn’t Mean Alone

Maggie Patterson 0:00

Going back to whether you want to be an agency owner, like building an agency that is going to be the right structure for you, um, making sure that your head count, like I always talk about a micro agency. Like, how are we getting the best of both worlds? Like maybe you have five employees, not 500 employees isn't the goal. You're able to service your clients in a way that is thing, but you're able to still have a life. And then being solo, like not taking on absolutely everything. And this is why when I talk about staying solo, I talk a lot about support and figuring out for you like solo does not mean you're doing this all alone. What are the types of support you need?

Josh Hall 0:41

Welcome to the web design business podcast with your host, Josh Hall. Helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. Being a solopreneur does not mean being alone. One more time. Being a solopreneur does not mean being alone. This was a huge mind-blowing moment, realization, na nay, awakening that I came to in this conversation here with Maggie Patterson. She is the author of the book Staying Solo, and she's got a lot of great tips about how to be solo in your business. But like I said a couple times, they're not alone. We're gonna get into all of that. How to scale your business your way again without becoming like a stressed-out, overloaded owner agency, if you don't want to go that route. And I just want to reiterate this before we dive in because it's kind of the theme through the entire conversation here. And I think it's so important nowadays, especially that you don't because I feel like people generally either think of you have to be alone and solo or you have to be a stressed-out agency owner. But no, there is a sweet spot right in the middle to help you get there. Here is my conversation with Maggie Patterson. You can go check her out at her website, bsfreebusiness.com. There, there will be the link to her book, Staying Solo, which I'd highly recommend if you enjoyed this chat with her. So without further ado, without being alone, without being stressed out of egg sooner, here's Maggie. Maggie, it is so good to have you here on the show. We are gonna try this again. We got booted with some internet issues, but um maybe the uh the universe doesn't want us to talk about staying solo.

Maggie Patterson 2:33

Maybe not, but I really think it does.

Setting The Stage On Scaling

Josh Hall 2:36

So that's what we're gonna dive into in this one. Uh, gonna try to reiterate what we talked about for the first few minutes before we got kicked off. But um, you know, I have a very torn feeling on staying solo because I was a solopreneur for a long time and I loved it and I was a proud solopreneur, but I know the value of scaling, and I even have a course called Scale Your Way. So um I figure we could have it kind of maybe have a friendly back and forth on what uh scaling looks like and what staying solo looks like nowadays.

Maggie Patterson 3:06

Absolutely. And I think one of the things is like I always like to set the stage of I'm not anti-scaling, I'm pro-informed scaling because I feel like so many people end up scaling who realize like, oh, this is not for me, or a lot of people who actually would rather just stay as a team of one feel like this weird guilt or discomfort because that's not something they want to tackle right now. And I feel like for me, I was like, I recognize that was a conversation that was not happening. Like, hey, you know what? It's totally fine to be a solopreneur. You've got more than one option, which is build an agency or scale a team.

Maggie’s Path From Freelancer To Agency

Josh Hall 3:43

I do find coaching a lot of web designers begrudgingly scale, which was my story, or they often say, I know I need to scale. It's like, oh God, I gotta do this. Yeah. So let's get into the specifics here. But I am curious a little bit about your staying solo story. So can you just give us like the lay of the land of really the context of what led to you creating a book about staying solo? What was what was your journey?

Maggie Patterson 4:08

So I was a freelancer for I'm almost to the year 21 now, so I've been around for a while. But what was really interesting for me is I was very, you know, I did a very classic freelancer, solopreneur model. Then I started building a team, eventually built an agency. And along the way, I started doing consulting for creatives and consultants. And I noticed that a lot of them had a lot of resistance around scaling. And when I started to unpack that with them and I started to consider my own experiences of being a solopreneur, is that a lot of the reasons people would choose to build a team or, you know, scale kind of in the classic sense, like what you teach, is they would feel like that was the only way for them to get what they wanted. And I was like, hey, you know what? There's a lot of other things you could do and stay as a team of one. And these are alternatives that are available to you. And over time, I've seen my clients like, you know, how do we start to use pricing more effectively? How do we start packaging our strategy more effectively? How do I maybe bring in a specialist when I need them versus hiring a full team and having the overhead of payroll? So, really looking at what are these alternatives for you to make more money and not just having to settle as a soloprinter to say, you know what, I'm stuck at this very like classic, you know, 75 to 100K revenue plateau when I actually could make more and without having to necessarily do all the things to require to scale.

Josh Hall 5:33

So I this is a big important point right off the gate, which is do you do you um promote that you can still be a solopreneur, but also hire out or delegate some task? Because I think a lot of people when they hear solo, they think I'm doing absolutely everything in my business. Yeah. Or what's your what's your view on that?

Collaborators Versus Payroll Teams

Maggie Patterson 5:56

You know what? I look at it as there's a bit of a like it's a gray area, right? And for me, it comes down to the same way you would probably, even as a solopreneur, hire an accountant, hire a lawyer because those are not your areas of expertise. Let's say you're a designer and you're like, I do really amazing web design, but I'm not great at publication design. So maybe I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna team up and collaborate with someone on occasion. I did that a lot when I was a freelancer, and that was a way for me to um really be able to serve clients, be able to take on projects without getting into the complexity of having a full-scale agency with a team, with payroll, because that is a totally different thing. And I think one of the things a lot of people don't recognize is like what you said, um, kind of we were talking earlier, is people do this begrudgingly or accidentally. And then they realize, like, oh God, I actually hate managing people, or I don't have the leadership skills I need, or recognize that their job is going to become very different than it is today. So really figuring out for them like, is that something I want to do? Or maybe I'm really good with like collaborating with that amazing publication designer once a year and serving that client and calling it good.

Josh Hall 7:11

I think this is everything with in regards to solo, like quote unquote solo versus scaling, which is there's we we have to draw the line and the distinction between, and tell me if you agree with this or not, between partners and collaborators and folks you may hire out occasionally versus payroll, full agency, like an actual team. Yes. Do you do you draw the line? So yeah, I mean, I guess kind of answering the question, but it really, I mean, I certainly agree with that to where like the solopreneur, it doesn't mean that you're like doing literally everything in your business as a solopreneur. I feel like you can still scale as a solopreneur, like you can still solo scale.

Keeping Hands In The Creative Work

Maggie Patterson 7:54

Yeah, like a whole nother book. And I think that like we need to move away from that binary of like I have to do everything myself, or I have to have a team of five with payroll. There is a lot of um shades and flavors of different ways we can approach it that are going to be appropriate for how we want to work, the type of life we have, um, our skills and capabilities. So, really looking at for you, what is the right choice? And one of the things I really noticed a lot is when I started growing my team and my agency, it always just felt like I was on this hamster wheel. And I was like, okay, I'm doing really well. We've got this team of four-time and full-time employees. Like, what else do I have to do? And then I started to really think about it and I was like, okay, what do I actually want this business to be? And like since then, my team is smaller. It, we are very, very controlled and managed very carefully because I don't want to spend all my time doing leadership activities. Where if you have a team of 10 people, you you're absolutely going to spend your time on that. And you're probably not gonna do as much actually hands-on creative work, which a lot of creatives actually still want to have their hands in the work.

Josh Hall 9:01

That's a good point. Um, which is yeah, like the bigger the team grows, yeah, the just the more administrative team calls, stuff like that. It really, it really is the difference of being a creative and being an owner and an actual business owner. And I do think it's nice to have a healthy balance. I mean, I still scratch my creative itch and do design and do some website stuff, even now. Um, and I do find that web designers most are in the begrudgingly category because you start out as a web designer designing sites, enjoying it. It's passion, it's fun. You start making some money, you become a freelancer. Next thing you know, you got a business. And there's not too many web designers I've found, unless they come from a different industry or unless they like come into web design with an owner mindset. Yeah, like most of them, you really gotta, yeah, which your book, my course, these things help people scale in a way that works for them. That is not the typical agency, big team, stressful route. But I do think that's extra common in web design because you're dealing with creatives who are like, you know, whether they like it or not, they're becoming owners in some extent.

Maggie Patterson 10:11

Yeah. And I think one thing I talk about a lot with my clients is you didn't start a business because you love marketing or because you love leadership, or because you started a business because there's this craft, this skill you have that you're really amazing at and you're passionate about. And let's not get rid of that completely and build something else. Like, you know what? Every so often there's a business owner. I'm sure Josh, you've encountered them. Like, they are like an entrepreneur to the like core. And they are so excited about never having to do their thing again. They're like, I'm really great at it. I'm very skilled, very talented. But you know what? I am passionate about entrepreneurship and growing the business. That's not the majority of creatives I've ever worked with. And I think we need to leave room for people to design the business in a way that is gonna best work for them and to challenge kind of the conventional thinking around this very like this is the blueprint, this is the way you're gonna do it. Because you and I both know in the, especially in the online business realm, the online education realm is it is a very prescriptive way of doing things and doesn't actually look at the actual outcomes for people, a lot of big promises, but not a lot of actual big results are delivered when a lot of this stuff is being sold and talked about.

The Middle Ground: Micro Agency

Josh Hall 11:32

So I feel like your book, Staying Solo, like a subtitle I'm reading into this could be like anti-agency or the anti-agency route. It seems like you're really pushing solo printers to focus on and maybe that's another version of this, which is to what I gather, you're not saying like literally do everything in your business, but keep doing what you want to do as a creative. Is that fair? Like, like don't lose what you want to do in your business just for the sake of scaling.

Maggie Patterson 12:04

Yes. And I think the part of it is, you know, I the first three chapters of the book are really written as like, here's what you need to know about entrepreneurship, the mental health impacts, like really setting the context for what it's like to own a business. Because for so long, it's just the excitement of entrepreneurship. And I mean, I'm very much a realist, I'm very pragmatic. So I'm just like, hey, FYI, like, here's what the average solo business owner makes. And like, if you're making that, you're doing really well. So stop being so hard on yourself and comparing yourself to all these kind of magical income claims on the internet. But then I go into like, here's the things you need to consider to stay solo. But I do have Josh a chapter called Why Not an Agency? Because I'm not anti-agency, I'm pro-informed agency owner because so many people become accidental agency owners. They literally build this agency around themselves and then go, oh God, what have I do I have an agency?

Josh Hall 13:03

Uh-huh. Or they're like, Yeah, like I'm stuck in team calls all day. This is not what I signed up for.

Maggie Patterson 13:07

Like, what do you mean I need to do performance reviews? What the hell?

Josh Hall 13:11

Yeah, right, right. So what's interesting about this is I think in the context of, and I do think this has evolved, especially over the past probably 10 years. Um, I think the the I don't know what the agency world is like as much now. I I white labeled for some agencies, like some bigger agencies in town. And I mean, these were like hundreds of people, big type of marketing agencies. It was the real deal. But for most freelancers who dabble into an agency, um, like my CEO of my agency, Eric, which I'm a founder of, I sold my my, I called it a studio. I never called it an agency. Um, but he's like, he's he loves it. He loves team calls, he loves that side of like being an owner. But yeah, he's different than most creatives. I think what I'm seeing now is more of a willingness for this to like to expand past yourself, but not become a stressed-out agency owner who does nonstop team calls and putting out fires. Um, and I think a lot of it, it goes back to a quote from a book by uh Ginny Blake called Free Time. And I want to I want to hear what your what your thoughts are on this quote. The quote is the only reward for doing everything in your business is burnout. What do you what do you say to that?

Alone Vs Solo: A Crucial Distinction

Maggie Patterson 14:32

Yeah, and I think this is the thing going back to whether you want to be an agency owner, like building an agency that is going to be the right structure for you, um, making sure that your head count. Like I always talk about a micro agency. Like, how are we getting the best of both worlds? Like maybe you have five employees, not 500 employees isn't the goal. You're able to service your clients in a way that is thing, but you're able to still have a life. And then being solo, like not taking on absolutely everything. And this is why when I talk about staying solo, I talk a lot about support and figuring out for you like solo does not mean you're doing this all alone. What are the types of support you need? Maybe you need to work with someone like Josh or I. Maybe you need certain um professionals, maybe you need certain supports in your personal life. Like the flavors of support are very different for everybody. So recognizing like it doesn't always have to be hiring, it doesn't always have to be consulting or a coach. It could be a tool, it could be upskilling. There's sometimes it's literally like, please get a project management software so it's not all in your head. So recognizing for you in the season you are in your business, in your life, where do you actually need different types of support? And stop trying to be this, you know, one-man band who absolutely remembers everything, knows everything, is the be all and end all because nobody is built to run that way. And whether you're a solopreneur or an agency owner or anything else, the entrepreneurial outcomes for people are not positive around mental health, incredibly lonely, a lot of negative health, uh mental health outcomes and physical health outcomes, as well as the studies show like the percentage of burnout is much, much higher. So, going back to that quote, like that is the reward. So let's not do that to ourselves.

Josh Hall 16:28

You just helped me. I think that I think what you just said is gonna help me for many years ahead. So I want to thank you publicly. Because what what you made me realize is there's a difference between being solo and being alone.

Maggie Patterson 16:43

Yes.

Josh Hall 16:43

And your book is not staying alone, it's staying solo. So that that right there, for me as a coach of web designers, is gonna be what I lean back on to say to really specify the difference between being alone and being solo. Because I do think people tend to view the options as alone or agency.

Maggie Patterson 17:03

Yes.

Josh Hall 17:03

And those are the two options. But there really is this lovely hybrid middle, which I know your book expands on. My course, although it's called Scale Your Way, is is really just that. It's just how to scale as a solopreneur. Um, so I love, I love that frame. I just want to say like that was a that was a good visual for me to really finally put a lid on like the difference between those two. Now I'm curious, what do you see from people who are alone? We'll just call it alone in their business. What are the common things that you see when they start to dip their toe into any sort of scaling or delegation? Because I I have my story, I see a lot of other web designers go through this, but what are what's what are the things that you see when somebody's like, okay, I either can't do this alone or don't want to do this alone? What are the common things when they get to this point?

Trim Offers And Cut Business Bloat

Maggie Patterson 17:54

Yeah, I think the one thing I see the most is people don't do this as a strategic decision. They do it as a reaction. They are overwhelmed, they're stressed out, they are ready to literally quit their business or go get a job. And then they're like, okay, I'm gonna get some help. And it's literally like they're wandering around the internet or like talking to people, and they're like, they will let anybody and everybody help them. They're not considering the type of help, they're not considering the budget, they're not considering even what you would have these people do. And I see this all the time, but I'm sure everybody here has seen this or even thought about it as the the catch-all of like, I'm gonna hire a virtual assistant. And I'm like, but what are they doing? And they're like, but I just need help. And it's like, maybe you don't need a virtual assistant, maybe you need you don't like doing logos. So you need a logo designer who does the first revision, like the first concept and revisions on them so you can get them and go, I hate those three. Give me those two. I'm gonna present them to the client. I'm gonna, you know, tweak them a little bit. And so recognizing that you need to start from a place where you know exactly what kind of help you need, how you're gonna work with them, like you need to kind of be able to set those terms and conditions as parameters around it so you can actually be successful. Because what I hear from a lot of people is they hire someone, they're super frustrated, then the story becomes is I can't hire anyone, no one does anything right, or I suck at this. When they didn't set themselves or the person they've hired in any way, shape, or form to be successful.

Josh Hall 19:32

It's a good point too, to probably focus on our business first and really have a self-aware evaluation of what we're doing. Because to your point, like if you're doing logos and you really don't like it and it's not really that big part of your business, there's no sense of scaling that up and hiring that out unless it's worthwhile if it's just gonna add more stress and isn't gonna, you know, truly help. Like you may as well, I I guess the what I'm thinking of is probably a good step is to try to probably like cut out things in your business that you don't need, right? Do you do you recommend trimming bloat in services, offers, subscriptions, and everything before scaling? Because I imagine scaling's not, you know, or and by scaling, I just mean delegating or getting help. I imagine that may not be the first step all the time.

Maggie Patterson 20:20

No, it just definitely not. I think so many service business owners, especially creatives, the longer you do things, the more bloated your offer suite comes, you end up doing things because you can, not because they're profitable, not because you like them. And so we we need to be able to zoom out and be like, okay, what is my actual business strategy here? Like, who am I serving? What problems am I solving? What packages am I actually offering? Like getting that lockdown. And I can guarantee everybody listening to this, there's at least one service or one thing you're doing right now for clients that you are like, but why? And every time you do it, you roll your eyes, it's dramatic, you hate it. It's probably not a big deal, but you keep doing it because you think you have to. And I think the beautiful thing when it comes to creative work, like I work with so many designers. There's so many different types of design you could be doing. Are you doing publication design? Are you doing web design? Are you doing branding? Like, you don't have to do all the things. Like, and I always like clients will bring me their offers, and I'm like, why are we doing everything in the kitchen sink? So, like being more specific about like what do you do, what do you not do, what do you want to be known for? Because if you're just a great general designer, it becomes really hard for you to scale over time.

Pricing, Margins, And Paying For Help

Josh Hall 21:37

Yeah, I love this. Is such a good tip. Because e I mean, honestly, even if you want to stay solo for as long as you can, it's even more so important to start here because as we all know, like you just said, your business t tends to get more complex. It tends to get bloat. And what I've found is if you don't trim that off before scaling. Well, first of all, if you do it solo, you're gonna burn out, just like that quote is so wise. But also, if you start to hire and delegate some of that out, you're now delegating, you know, like 10 or 11 things where maybe you just need to delegate like four or five things. Um, so I couldn't agree more, like just that valuable first step of trimming down your offer. So, and actually we're recording this in January, so everyone's focused on you know trimming down after the Christmas cookies. Why not take this time to also trim down our business a little bit and cut out? Well, it's a great, great practical step before even entering into this world.

Maggie Patterson 22:36

Yeah, and I think the other thing of that is like please cut your expenses. Like, I just did a massive expense review and I found so much stuff. I was like, I didn't like I knew we had that, but I didn't really realize we had like and oh wait, the the subscription went up by 50%? We don't really need that right now. So having those little periodic checks on any bloat in the business, and as well as you know, not just bloat, but looking for busy work. What things are you doing that you just don't need to be doing, that nobody needs to be doing? And like sometimes that's like being really precious about like color coding your projects. Like, is that improving your quality of life? Is that improving your business? No. So unless it makes you really happy, maybe you don't need to do that.

Roles, Strategy, And Client Contact

Josh Hall 23:23

Let's talk about money and say uh solo and scaling, because what is really, I mean, really, where I see that the rubber meets the road for people who scale is it gets to the point where they have to have a mindset and be comfortable to pay more or pay for help or pay for contractors. And I don't know if you have a certain metric of like a profit percentage you should be at, or I guess that I guess I'd like to throw it to you. Like what what is your what's your advice for people who are definitely alone mostly in their business and want to get help, don't want to be an agency, but they're also worried about the money side. Like how you know if they're if their margins are pretty thin right now, how are they gonna be able to afford help? Now, I have my thoughts on this, but I want to hear from you. What do you advise? How do you help people with the money aspect of getting help and getting out of just being alone?

Maggie Patterson 24:20

I love this question. So, number one thing you have to consider if you are going to start collaborating or outsourcing or whatever that's gonna look like for you is can my pricing support that too many, and you alluded to this, too many people have thin margins. And then what happens is that again, the conversation goes a little like this. Well, I need to hire someone, but my budget is only X. So great, I respect a budget. I like a bargain, don't get me wrong, but I don't like a bargain in my business where I am now paying someone who does not have the skills, talent, experience I need to give me the output I need. So this is where I see a lot of frustration is they don't have the margin, they hire someone with the budget they have. That's not the right person. Frustration sets in. Now that project becomes so much harder because the outsourcing didn't work effectively and you're redoing the work. So instead of doing that and like kind of rushing to delegate this and hire someone, look at your pricing. Does the price need to go up? You need to have layers built into there so you can literally have the margins you need to mark up the people that are working, you know, on your projects with you, on your clients with you. So really looking at that pricing as part of that puzzle to outsourcing to ensure you do have the margins. And I mean, could I be prescriptive and say, hey, you know what? I want to make sure like you can mark them up by 50%. I always look at what is the job, who is the client, all those things. But I always tell my clients at a minimum, I want to see you having at least room for a 30 to 25% markup on that person. And that's only for someone who I consider a true specialist, where I'm not going to have to touch a lot of the work, where I'm not, you know, maybe I'm doing strategic direction or creative direction, but I'm not coming in and being like, oh God, it needs to be redone every single time. If you're paying less, expect more revisions, expect to have to be more hands-on. But I think a lot of times those expectations are not set correctly for people, and they expect people to be at their level for like a fraction of the cost.

Protecting Client Experience While Delegating

Josh Hall 26:36

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Uh let's have a little fun with this. And I want you to push back if you don't agree with any of this or if you see any holes in my methodology. But my scaling course is completely based off of my experience with scaling, which was um uh fumbling at best because I was I begrudgingly scaled and had to. But what I learned was when it comes to the money side of like how the whether it's a percentage of a project or a flat fee for work, I based it off of the role that they were filling in the project and in the business. So for example, um, I'm big on having some sort of org chart. And most web design business owners have about at least 10 roles that they're fulfilling as a creative director, CEO, project manager, marketer, support person, designer, developer, et cetera. So for me, when I think about knowing the margins and knowing what to plan to pay a contractor, for me, I've always liked basing it off of that. Like if they're just doing junior design roles in a website project, it's gonna be pretty minimal. But if they're gonna be doing not only the design roles, but they're gonna do client communication and managing the project and some support and they're doing a lot of the work, then I'm absolutely fine with paying more. And to your point, that's where you're probably gonna want to boost up those margins quite a bit. Um, do you like that? Or is there something else that you would advise when it comes to knowing what to pay and how to figure out your margins?

Maggie Patterson 28:06

Uh the more, the more strategy, like if you just look at it as a ladder, and I think you kind of hit on it here when you said, like, if it's a junior position with, you know, it's literally like for lack of a better word, order taking, like, do this, do that. That's a different level than, you know, if we kind of move up in terms of how much strategy and then also how much client contact. If someone has client contact, you absolutely need to be making sure that you are paying for the best possible person that you can have in that role. Um, because I think the last thing, and I've seen this happen to people, but like the last thing you want is to be training people on the job, on how to deal with clients and having it reflect on your client experience. Many people have been on the receiving end of that, and it's not pretty. And I mean, I have bless them, I've worked with people in the past where I've seen this in action, and it really leaves a bad taste in the client's mouth. So recognizing that like client-facing roles, strategy roles, they are worth paying for. So you know it's being handled uh professionally and in the way that reflects the values and the approach of your your group, your agency, or your business.

Josh Hall 29:20

And this is why I stayed a solopreneur, a lonely solopreneur for a long time is because just like a lot of web designers I coach, I know they they fear this too. I was so protective of my client experience and my way of communicating and my over-delivering nature. And I equally was worried about design and my uh my quality of work. I actually felt like the quality of work thing was way easier to get over because Jonathan, who became my first designer, just got way better than me. So I was like proud to have him work on the design stuff. But uh, even though he did a really good job with clients, I didn't realize how much this sounds sounds super douchey, but I didn't realize how good I got at communication and how good I was at customer service until I started having some team members communicate with clients. And it was never bad. I was never like, oh, don't say that. But I realized I really needed to like train them more and give them more resources on how I talk, what clients should expect, the our vibe, you know. So I imagine, so you're shaking your head. I imagine that's a biggie that's probably overlooked when it comes to even scaling a microagency.

What A Winning Solo Setup Looks Like

Maggie Patterson 30:36

And recognizing that not everyone is meant to be in a client-facing role. Like, I am a communications person, I'm a writer. So high communications like was something I started doing very early in my first agency job. So it is like baked into me, but like not everyone has that desire or skill set. So, and this was always my frustration working in a big agency was everyone was expected to have a client-facing role. People couldn't just be good at their craft. And I feel like in a microagency, like you've got the ability as the owner to design that in a way where maybe that designer is like really, really incredible, but like they're not a people person. So maybe they never have to talk to the clients. And really recognizing that like everyone has different capabilities, everyone has different skills and talents, and designing the team around that. And not everyone needs to be talking to the clients. In fact, please don't have 14 people that talk to the client because that is hard on your client. Streamlined and simplified, like, you know, one to two points of contact where they know reliably what's going on and that they can trust that person is gonna go a long way versus like who is this person? I don't know who they are.

Josh Hall 31:51

And I don't know about how you feel about this, but I know for me, it looked like I was solo for a long time, even after I started scaling, because I had help on the back end. So nothing was client-facing. So to my clients, yeah, Josh was the guy. And even, and I was open about like I've got a team of collaborators, or I've got a couple of people who are helping, or I have a network. It's one thing I tell my WebCenter Pro members, it's like the cool thing about being there is you can absolutely be a solopreneur and have a network of people to lean on when you need them.

Maggie Patterson 32:23

Exactly.

Josh Hall 32:23

So there's that aspect too. And I'm only saying that because like I feel like you can come across solo, even though you're not alone. Like you still have people who are just in the back of it, but they're just not gonna be talking to clients, you know, potentially until you get to that point maybe where you want them to be.

Maggie Patterson 32:40

Yeah, and a certain point, and you know, if you're growing, you have a certain client load, like you are gonna have to, you know, let go a little bit. And I mean, that was something for me as an agency owner. Like, I really had to like that took me a while because I am very particular. And I then I started to realize I was like, oh, the person I've created, like is our client service director, is actually better with the clients than I am. Because she has like this warm, fuzzy part of her that I'm like, I don't have that. I'm like, no, no, we can't do that. Where she's like, how do you like it? Just a bunch of a kinder, gentler way of doing things.

Josh Hall 33:18

That's great. What a win. What a win that is. Yeah, huge win. To find somebody who's better with people than you are, yeah. Um, so I'm curious with the idea of staying solo, especially particularly with your book, like you know, you help out people in my my industry and adjacent industries, but I'm wondering what is the if you could give like an average staying solo setup, yeah. What would that be? Would it be a certain number of rows that are contracted? What does that look like to you? And of course, this could be tough because it could vary drastically, I'm sure. But yeah, you know what I mean? Like, what would be an average setup that would be a good ideal customer avatar for you as a solo staying solo person?

Redefining Lifestyle Business

Maggie Patterson 34:02

I it's interesting. I tend to work best with they're not new business owners by any means. They're people who are really good at what they do. They're, you know, service professionals like accountants, lawyers, um, creatives. I work with a lot of web designers, a lot of writers, or typically, you know, consultants that work with corporate fundraising, that kind of stuff. And I think what's really interesting in this is they're more experienced. Um, they have done some basics in terms of typically they're not doing their own bookkeeping, they're not playing lawyer on the internet. Um, and they understand that they need different types of help. Like in my case, I tend to come in at the point that they're like, I feel like I've taken this as far as I can without understanding like what levers I can pull. Like, I recognize I'm not getting paid for this, or I don't believe I can actually charge more for that. Um, really looking at things like packaging and pricing, and also like, what are those, you know, the scaffolding of the business? Where do you need support? Um, where are you over capacity? Where are you not doing planning that you need to do? You're kind of flying by the seat of your pants. So that tends to be where people come into my world and work with me because they have identified, like, hey, I don't want an agency, but I definitely don't want to just do things the way I've always done it.

Josh Hall 35:25

Is there a if we were to put this in analogy of like finishing the race, like they won? They're a staying solopreneur. They what what would their setup look like as a win? Like if they, yeah, I know this isn't something that is exactly race to the finish, but what's what's an average, like successful staying solopreneur? What would their team size be just on average that you find?

Maggie Patterson 35:50

Yeah, like for me, most of them don't have a team in the classic sense. They have more collaborators and professional service providers they work with. Like, I'm thinking of uh one designer I work with, like, she doesn't do her own dev. So she has a dev that she partners with when she needs to, but it's not like an ongoing commitment they have. Um and then typically they're at the stage where they are looking at um, they're really looking for two things. They're being able to pay themselves the way they want to pay themselves, like that for them. And that's gonna vary wildly, but they're able to meet their financial needs. So that tends to be one thing is I'm like, hey, a lot of times when I start working with people, they're not paying themselves regularly, or they don't have a like, they don't have a consistent enough lead flow to be able to do that. So looking at that, and then also it comes back to quality of life. I'm like, literally, the hill I will die on is if this business does not work for your life, like it is not built for the constraints of your life, the time you actually have, the requirements you have, the the joy you want to be going having away from the business. We need to look at the business. So I'm always looking at, can you pay yourself the way you want to pay yourself? And I don't mean like, you know, they're not paying themselves millions of dollars, but they're paying themselves, you know, a very healthy professional salary and taking care of their financial needs and then also taking care of those needs they have as a you know, a whole human beyond the business.

Josh Hall 37:19

So you have some more years of experience in this industry and in adjacent industries, you have some corporate experience. Can you pinpoint the time that the term lifestyle business you know what I mean? Yeah, is that is that a goofy term? How do you feel about that? And when did that because I feel like I came to I I got into entrepreneurship really about the time like Tim Ferris took off and four-hour work week? I was at the start of that. Um, but so I didn't really see the world before that. But what when in your perspective of your experience so far, when did that happen?

Remote Work’s Legitimacy And History

Maggie Patterson 37:58

Yeah, it definitely is in the Tim Ferris, like early, you know, 2015, 2016, like that kind of mid 2010s. That's where we really kind of start. I didn't like I remember the first time I heard that, I was like, Well, I feel dismissed. Your lifestyle entrepreneur, like, but I feel like it gets vandalized as like, oh, you're just doing a lifestyle entrepreneur. And I feel like there's different flavors of like that dismissive lifestyle entrepreneur, and then the like, I'm on the beach with my laptop type of entrepreneur, which is that's not really reality for most people running a business. And I feel like I really want to be able to take that back to say, you know what, there's nothing wrong with you prioritizing your life and not giving into the like entrepreneurship hustle grind. Like, there are gonna be seasons when you're gonna hustle, but at the same time, like most people don't start their business thinking, I'm at least in services, like I'm gonna do this to try to make all the money. It's because your job doesn't work for you, because you need more flexibility, because you want to be having different types of projects. So if you go back to why you started your business at the beginning, it was probably a lifestyle reason. So I'm not I'm not a big fan of that term, but I also think we need to recognize that like Shark Tank style entrepreneurship, the way it's you know sold to us and the way it's celebrated in our culture, also isn't really what we're going for.

Josh Hall 39:26

Yeah, because I I I do feel like the outside world who are not entrepreneurs, and some entrepreneurs, but definitely like corporate in the outside world, it seems like the measures of success would be much cooler if I was like, yeah, I've got an office downtown, I've got 20 staff. But to me, I've done this long enough and I've been a solopreneur long enough to know that what that really means is a ton of stress, a lot of calls, a lot of admin, a lot of extra payroll, a lot of other extra expenses, a lot of time away from my kids and my family and my wife. That's that's what I see. That's the you know, I have the the Superman X-ray vision. That's that's definitely what I've learned to see past that. And and I I think a lot of the world is caught up to that, but I think the um the outside corporate world, I don't, I just don't know. I don't I don't it doesn't seem like it's as cool to say like I only work like 30 or less hours a week and um you know I get to do this. It I don't know. How do you feel about that? Because I mean for me and you, it we obviously know that's the the real gold is, but is the rest of the world catching up to yes, this?

Maggie Patterson 40:35

So there's there's kind of two things in this that are so super interesting. And I talk about this in my book, and I think it's actually how I start the book is I talk about March 13th, 2020. I'm like, yes, that was the day where I live where everything shut down for the pandemic. But that was also the day my work, my 15 years of work from home became legit because before that I spent so much time explaining to clients, no, we can't meet at my office. No, no, I don't like, no, my team is dispersed across North America. Like I spent so much time on that. Like people could not wrap their head around it. So, you know, there was a lot of things that weren't great about the pandemic, but that legitimacy of working from home was such an interesting shift. It's like a like a switch flip for corporate clients. They were like, oh, I get it now. And the thing I noticed after that is over the years, I've worked with a lot of tech companies, a lot of kind of early to mid-stage tech companies, um, directly with a lot of founders. And I've had so many founders say to me, You have a better thing going than I do. And it's like quietly, like, you know, between meetings, they're like, You're going on another trip. And I'm like, Yeah. Or like the amount of vacation I take, like they're like, I've had so many clients in the last four or five years say to me, like, corporate clients who have like, you know, they're directors of marketing, they're CEOs, and they're like, How do I be you? Because they see me living their dream. Like they're I'm doing what they're gonna do in retirement now.

The Business You Actually Want

Josh Hall 42:19

I said that from day one when when COVID really hit, which was welcome to the web design world. Like, welcome world. We've been doing this for freaking 10, 15 years. Uh, it is that's an interesting point. It's a good reminder because folks getting into the industry now may not be aware that there was a shift to where of legitimacy for people working from home and being comfortable with a lean, mean remote team and not having the the office downtown and the payroll and the staff and the full agency model. Um, there was a big shift there. I'm glad that you reminded me of that because I kind of forget sometimes. And to be honest, like we were in I've I've worked from home since 2009. So I I've had to remember and remind myself that my path is not common. And we were also at a point, my daughter was just born, so we were kind of locked down anyway. Um, but yeah, I it's a good reminder that there really was a cultural shift to legitimacy working from home and having a remote team then.

Maggie Patterson 43:21

Yeah, and I mean when I started my business, everyone imagine this, 2005. People were like, What are you doing? What do you mean you don't go to the office? And like when my that I knew that my I had a very small child at that point, and people were like, Well, you're just like working and watching him all day. Why do you need to send him to daycare? And I'm like, Oh my god, the amount of education I've had to do with people over the years to say, like, no, I actually am working.

Josh Hall 43:50

What did you do for calls in 2005? Was that just on the phone calls? Or I'm trying to even think. So there was no Zoom, no Google Works, or you know, Google Meet or anything.

Maggie Patterson 44:00

Nope, I had like a Microsoft Outlook account, a laptop, and a cell phone. Like my overhead for my business was so simple. It was so great.

Josh Hall 44:10

Well, good on you. Power, power to you. That's awesome.

Maggie Patterson 44:14

Yeah, I think I had like a 90%, 95% profit margin at that point. Cause I was just like, uh, it's all my money now. I have no expenses.

Josh Hall 44:23

And did you were you working with local clients at that point? Did you go meet at coffee shops and stuff if you need to look at something or do presentations?

Maggie Patterson 44:31

Yeah, I I worked. It's funny. I started off working with a couple local clients, but just because I worked in tech and like, you know, I would be networked for like the VCs they worked with or whatever. I did end up working like a lot with companies that were, you know, a couple cities away, or even like I worked with a lot of companies at that point in Silicon Valley just because of who I knew. And like the local people could not grasp it. The Silicon Valley people were like, oh yeah, it's fine. Because they're so used to like working with like someone in Romania or like just the most random things. Like I had clients that I worked with for years, never saw my face because everything was on the phone.

Josh Hall 45:09

I'm trying to remember. So I got started in 2009, and yeah, I'm trying to remember what I mean. I remember the the screen share technology back then was it was revolutionary. What was the one? Oh, you had to like log in and you could share your screen. This was well before Zoom. This is oh, probably WebEx. WebEx, that may have been it. There was another one. Oh, I wish I could remember. It was one of those OGs where like you each had to download the app or download some sort of software, and then you'd be able to screen share. I forget what it was called, but um, I mean, I just it makes me think like the barrier to entry now is so different, just because when I got started as a designer, that's one reason I was purely local. Is I mean, Zoom wasn't even a thing, yeah, to my knowledge, in 2009. So if I wanted to show off a web design project, I had to meet the client and show off the web design project.

Maggie Patterson 46:04

Um yeah, I do sometimes say, like, I miss the the just the audio conference calls because I used to get a lot done in my house on the really long ones, like with corporate teams. Like, I would be like, Okay, I'm on the all-hands call. Let me fold my laundry.

Josh Hall 46:19

Like, absolutely. Yeah, well, I mean, it just it's a testament to where the industry is now, not just in web design, but just online entrepreneurship. With I mean, honestly, how good we have it, but I do I do think this message of the the middle ground of not being alone, but not being agency. Yes, healthy solopreneur is that's it. What's the term that you would like then? If it's not lifestyle solopreneur, what's the term?

Maggie Patterson 46:49

I just go with like business owner. Like it's I don't think we need a fancy term for it. And I think for me, thinking about entrepreneurship less as the way we see it portrayed in the media or on Shark Tank or you know, Bezos level, and thinking more of entrepreneurship of like there's many different flavors, there's it's a spectrum, and that someone who has a handmade business, you know, selling their pottery or their cut flower farm is just as legitimate as a business owner. It's just a different type of business. And I think thinking of your own business from the perspective of like it doesn't have to be this all-consuming thing, it can be, I don't like to think of it as job replacement. It can be the best job you could have ever imagined, and then some that's that's good.

Josh Hall 47:48

I have a final question on that. So let's save this for my final question for you. But just uh to give a chance for folks to connect with you here, Maggie, where should people go? We'll of course have your book, Staying Solo, um, linked in the show notes. Is Amazon the best place to pick that up, or do you have your it's all it's it's all the places? Okay, okay. So staying solo, the anti-agency. No, I'm just kidding. That's my tagline. Your guide to building a simple and sustainable service business, which I like that service is in there. Uh, but other than that, where should people go to uh to find you and check you out?

Job Versus Business: Be Proactive

Maggie Patterson 48:22

Um, probably the best next best place is my podcast staying solo. And I also have a private podcast where I periodically drop like the this is what I think you need to know right now. So I just did one that's like here's five things that you need to consider to make your business easier for 2026, and you can check that out at BSfreebusiness.com slash briefing.

Josh Hall 48:45

Very cool. Yeah, BS Free Business. I love that. So my final question to Rif on here for a couple minutes.

Maggie Patterson 48:52

Yeah.

Josh Hall 48:53

What is the difference between somebody creating essentially a job and somebody creating a business with this idea of wanting to have a healthy solopreneur role? What's the difference between a job and a business?

Maggie Patterson 49:07

Ooh, that's a really big philosophical question. So here is what I believe it to be is when someone creates a job for themselves, they replicate all the things of their prior roles. They tend to create the same rules, same structure. Um they're not very good bosses to themselves generally. And this is where I see a lot of people like underpaying themselves or like, you know, well, I have to take that client because of X, Y, or Z. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You're the boss, you're you are in charge now. And if you think that client is gonna be terrible, you don't have to say yes the same way you would have. So recognizing like all of the things you might take bring forward from your past career, like you don't want to replicate that is you get to create something totally new as a business owner where you get to decide how much you're gonna pay yourself, you get to decide what tools you're using, you get to decide when you're taking your vacation. Like, and the biggest thing I see so many solopreneurs doing is not taking time off because they haven't figured out that that is like one of the biggest perks of the job. Like, be like, oh, well, I'm done my work at two o'clock. And I'm like, so why are you on your computer? Take your kids, go get your kids early from daycare and go to the park. Like, go do go do something, go to the gym. You don't have to be button seat. So, you know, not bringing all those like norms around work into your business. Like, yes, you still need to be professional, but you really do get to make up a lot of the rules and decide what's going to work best for you. And like over the years, I've decided all kinds of things that people are like, you can't do that. I'm like, oh, but I I can.

Josh Hall 50:56

That's great. No, I think what you hit on too there is just to add my little two cents on that is we a job is reactive and being a business owner can be proactive.

Maggie Patterson 51:06

Yes, I love that.

Josh Hall 51:08

Definitely. I love yeah, that's a really, really I hope it's a hopeful message for people who are an alonepreneur right now, for lack of a better term. So awesome, Maggie was great chatting with you. Really appreciate your insights on this. The book is Staying Solo, Staying Solo podcast, BSfreebusiness.com. We'll have all that linked up. And um, yeah, until next time, really appreciate your time and sharing your thoughts on this. And as I've mentioned before, I think we hit record. One of my website pro members, Jessica, actually worked with you for a while.

Maggie Patterson 51:35

So yeah, world. Thanks so much, Josh.

Josh Hall 51:41

Such good stuff covered here again. I just want to thank Maggie for helping uh me come to this that realization that you can be a solopreneur, but you don't have to be alone. I hope this helped you as well. Again, her website is bsfreebusiness.com and her book, Staying Solo, if you want to stay solo but not alone. Thanks for joining my friends. Show notes for this one are gonna be found at joshhall.co slash 420, where we will have all this linked over there. Apologies for the cold for my intro and outro here, but it's six season at the time of uh doing this here in Columbus, Ohio. So we're gonna get past it. The show must go on. All right, my friends. Speaking of the show going on, we got some killer episodes ahead, so stay subscribed. See you on the next one.