423 - Hear from One of my Web Design Clients (and why he hired me when I just got started) with Gary Sigrist

This is a first – and a very special guest for the podcast because it’s an interview with one of my best web design clients!

Gary Sigrist, founder and CEO of Safeguard Risk Solutions hired me back in 2012 to do branding, graphic and web design for his new company. What he didn’t know at that time was that I was very green and new to the industry.

Fast forward to 2026, his company is STILL a client of my agency In Transit Studios and he remains one of our best clients to date.

We did into:

• What business owners are looking for in a creative/design/marketing partner
• How good communication and responsiveness made them feel like my only clients and build immediate trust
• What his thoughts were when I told him I was selling the agency and brining in a new CEO
• What my agency continues to do to keep his trust and business going after 14 years
• His reaction to when I let him know my hourly rate was doubling
• And much more

It was so great to reconnect with Gary and to take a little trip down memory lane but more importantly, it was awesome to hear so many of these great lessons in business from HIS perspective as a client.

Hope it helps you in your web design business as well so you can find your next “Gary, A client!”

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/423

Transcript

Care And Communication First

Josh Hall 0:00

It's all about just caring about your client and caring about your work, even if you're not a quote unquote expert yet. That and then communication. Can you tell me about that? Were those two elements that helped you trust me when we got started working together?

Gary Sigrist 0:13

So okay. So I think this is probably one of the most important things in any business. And especially when it's a a business where you got to build relationships. You know what I mean? And the the trust comes from you, you know, and it this could be because you were brand new. I don't know, but I felt like we were your only customers. We were your only client. And you were very responsive. You were very, you know, it felt like you bought into what we were doing. And so it reflected in the work that you did. And so to me, that was very important, that relationship.

Catching Up After 14 Years

Josh Hall 0:48

Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with your host, Josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love. All right, my friend. I've got a very special guest in this episode. This is actually one of my web design clients, one of my best web design clients of all time. This is Gary Stigrist. He is the CEO and founder of Safeguard Risk Solutions. And there's a few reasons I wanted to have Gary on to the podcast here. One to reconnect and check in because he's been a client of mine since 2012. And that is of note because I was very early on, particularly in web design at that point. So I thought it might be really interesting to dive into his perspective as a client and feeling comfortable with hiring me, somebody who is fairly new to the industry. So you're going to get to learn about what clients are looking for, even if you're not an expert or somebody who is extremely established. This just goes to show you can still get clients and they can still learn to trust you. And uh Gary really gets into on his side what I said in those days to make him feel comfortable hiring me. So it helps, I hope it helps you well. But there's a lot of good stuff we cover in this one about communication. Uh we also get into Gary's perspective and his thoughts when I let him know that I was going to be sailing my agency back in 2020 and that that change and that progression and um you know, on his end, what it was like with me bringing in a new CEO to work with him directly. So a lot of great stuff covered in this one. I just want to say thanks to Gary for coming onto the podcast and for sharing his side of our working journey together because yeah, it's been uh 14 years. He's still a client of my agency in Transit Studios. 14 years later. How about that? Freaking awesome. So here we go. Here's my conversation with one of my best clients of all time, Gary Sigrist. Go to the show notes for this episode at joshhall.co slash 423 to get all the links that we mentioned and check out his site, which I designed back in 2016, which is currently live at this release. So here we go. Here's Gary. Well, Gary, it's good to see you again.

Gary Sigrist 3:07

It is good to see you, Josh. I I the only time I see you now is on uh Facebook, you know.

Josh Hall 3:12

So I know it's so funny. You know, now it's like three kids later. Uh how many grandbabies for you later?

Gary Sigrist 3:19

It's like I have I have I have five grandchildren now.

Why He Trusted A New Designer

Josh Hall 3:22

So we started working together. There were no grandkids on your end and no kids for me. Now there's three kids and weren't even married yet. We weren't even married yet, right? And so I'm so excited uh to do this interview with you. As I mentioned before we hit record, I I just was thinking, I've been running this show for well over six years, and I've never had a client on. And I was just thinking it would be really cool, especially for the folks who who are in my audience and in my community who especially are starting out, who maybe don't have the confidence to feel like they're ready to get clients. And you know, I started working with you when I was super green in the industry. Um, so I would love to just kind of dive. Well, I'd love to dive into a lot of things, but I thought it might be kind of cool to start with your impression of me and and what it was like working with somebody who was pretty new to the industry. Um, and I do want to say, I just want to publicly say thank you, Gary, for giving me a shot back in those early days because it you are great to work with from the get-go. Um, I have three categories of clients A clients, B clients, and C clients. You're an A client. Those are the ones who you're excited to hear from. They're not a pain in the ass, great to work with. B clients are like, oh, they're they're all right. Uh C clients are like, if they left, no big deal. I'd actually prefer that. Sometimes you want to fire your client. Yes. Uh so you're an A client from the get-go. Uh so I just want to say publicly, I I really appreciate the opportunity to work with you. I mean, I'm looking, shoot, the the Safeguard Resolution site that I designed is still live in 2026, over a decade later. Um, so what was it like? What made you trust me to do work for you? I don't know if you knew how you know new I was to the industry, but what made you trust me to do work for you?

Naming And Branding From Scratch

Gary Sigrist 5:09

So um, first of all, I I knew I didn't know anything. Um and I I was smart enough to realize that just watching commercials that said, Oh, you can create your own website through whoever, I I knew I couldn't do that. I didn't have that was not my skill set. And I don't I don't know if you remember, but it was uh I called up my nephew Sam and said, Sam, I need help. Who who should I go to? And I I honestly thought it was Sam would say, Oh, I can do this for you. Um and he said, Hey, I know this guy, he's he's just getting started. And you know, when when you talk about being green at that time, I I never felt that. I I felt like um, you know, you were very impressive to work with. And you know, yeah, you might write it off as uh because I didn't know anything about the business that you're in, but I also knew I didn't know anything about the business. But you were, you know, we can do this, we can do this, we can do this, and you know, it was uh for me as a guy who everything I do is about a process, a a system, a way of getting things done, and you seem to have that process, that system, and that's what we needed. You know, if you remember correctly, we wanted to start a business, we didn't even have a name. And that's that's right, you know, the only thing that we knew is that we wanted risk solutions in the title, and that was it. That was the only thing we knew. And I mean, we would Mick and I would brainstorm and just and you were the one that came up with safeguard. Oh, was that really? I don't remember that. I was that was you. You were the one that said safeguard, and we're like, okay, so you know, I can remember going on to the the um who is it, the uh John Houston was it. I I don't remember what the title is, but uh where you where you register your company and you have to go online. Um and and going online to make sure that there was no other safeguard risk solutions in the state of Ohio. The Secretary of State, that's it, Secretary of State. So there was no safeguard risk solutions in the state of Ohio, and then um obviously making sure we could get that web domain. Yeah, you know, and and once we had those two things, that's all we had, and then you build it from there.

Josh Hall 7:30

And I re if I remember right, that was at your kitchen, your dining room table, wasn't it?

Gary Sigrist 7:34

Yeah, well our I was I think our first meeting was at uh Panera. Panera, yeah. And then we started meeting at my house. And um, you know, the the the process of um our logo, for example, you know, um, and and and I'd have to go through old emails to find them. But you know, you would send us samples. Well, I like this about this one, but I don't like this about this one, and then you'd send us another set of samples, and okay, I like this. And I mean, it just that process went on for a while until we said, okay, this is this is what we want. And then that became our logo, which then once we had that, that was incorporated into our business cards, it was incorporated into our website, and things just kept moving from there. Yeah. So I mean, I I still have a file on somewhere on my computer. It takes me a while to find it that says startup paperwork, and it has the safeguard logos. And so when I need to put something in a in a PowerPoint or put a one of the graphics on a uh uh letterhead, I I have those that you gave us.

Josh Hall 8:43

That's so awesome. I appreciate the reminder that I helped with the name. I'm still waiting on my royalty check, so I'll get I'll follow up with you on that. Yeah, yeah. Let me know how that works out for you. But uh, you know, it is really cool to have because I felt some ownership in in the brand just because I did see it from the literal can, you know, basically the conception of it. And what you just reminded me of, too, is while I felt quite green in web design, I was already pretty established as a graphic designer at that point. Because I what was it, 2012, I think, is when we started working together?

Gary Sigrist 9:16

2012, because you helped me, you know, when we were still printing flip charts, you hooked me up with a company and helped me get everything set up for that.

Josh Hall 9:27

So yeah, so I was I was two years into being a graphic designer, and I really had like just started offering web design. But it's a good reminder, too, I think, for everybody who's starting out, that to your point, like you said, Gary, you knew nothing. So a little bit of knowledge for me made me look like an expert back then.

Gary Sigrist 9:48

Well, yeah, but you know, it's like um I I paid somebody to do one of those for what I call whiteboard commercials, you know, where it it the the sketches is the story being told. And and I went online to look at that and they said, here, buy this software and you can do this yourself. And I knew I couldn't do that. And so I think GoDaddy was pretty new back then, and they said you can design your, you know, everyone said, here, you can design. I knew I couldn't do that. And and what it shows today is um, you know, that first website that you built us has been able to grow. I didn't have to start all over again. I didn't have to, okay, hey, we want to add blogs to this, we want to add this to that. I mean, and every time we did that, it was it was easy because our website was designed correctly from the beginning. And you know, I've seen people who have created websites and uh on their own, and you can tell it's created on their own. Yeah, and and a lot of times now I was on a I was on a website uh this morning looking at something, and I thought, yeah, you can tell that Josh didn't build this website because it was so horrible. I mean, you know what I mean? And and it just, you know, um, yeah, it just it boggles my mind that uh that people, you know, the they try to save a buck there.

Josh Hall 11:08

Yeah.

Gary Sigrist 11:09

And it and it doesn't, it costs them more in the end.

Responsiveness And The Trust Loop

Josh Hall 11:11

Oh, preaching it, preaching it. I love that you know, people are hearing this not from a web designer, because typically they hear this from web designers, but this is one of many reasons you're a dream client, is because you value somebody who does their craft. And and even if they're not like an expert who's been in the field for a decade, can you tell me about uh the trust that you felt with me early on? Because I'm I've I've been really open and public about saying if you feel imposter syndrome as a designer, my little way around that is to just really truly give a damn about your clients. Like care. It's really to me, there's two things care and communication are so key in the beginning.

Gary Sigrist 11:56

Um Josh, can you hear me? Because it you you just froze up on me first.

Josh Hall 12:00

I can hear you now. Sorry, I know my internet's been a little wonky. We've anytime it rains really bad, our internet gets a little wonky.

Gary Sigrist 12:06

We lost power. Oh, did you? Yesterday. And I've lost you again.

Josh Hall 12:20

Hold on one second. Okay, I think we're back, Gary. I made a note, we'll chop this little section out.

Gary Sigrist 12:24

I think we're what do you want to do do you feel you need to reset something at home? And we could because you're you're awful fuzzy on me.

Josh Hall 12:32

Uh with Riverside, it cleans up, it clears up afterwards. Um I think we should be good. Yeah, unfortunately, I already reset the uh the internet this morning, so we should be good. But uh we'll just kick back there. I I'm kind of curious, we just lost a little internet, but I think we're back. Um, can you tell me about what how you felt about like trust with me being early on? And the reason I mentioned that is I think for a lot of designers, they don't feel confident to get clients early on because they're so new to the industry. But I've always my little work around to that is as a designer, if you want to beat imposter syndrome, it's all about just caring about your client and caring about your work, even if you're not a quote unquote expert yet. Um that and then communication. Can you tell me about that? Were those two were those two elements that helped you trust me when we got started working together?

Gary Sigrist 13:24

So okay, so um I think this is probably one of the most important things in any business. And and especially when it's a a business where um you got to build relationships. You know what I mean? And um the the trust comes from you, you know, and it this this could be because you were brand new. I don't know, but I felt like we were your only customers, we were your only clients, and you were very responsive, you were very, you know, it it felt like you bought into what we were doing, and so it reflected in the work that you did. And so to me, that was very important that relationship. And then the other thing is is I think it's important is for you if if you're new starting out and you don't have certain skill sets, or there are people you know that have a better skill set, then lean into them. For example, are my email address. You didn't you didn't set that up. You said, here, I I know a guy, and and because I trusted you, okay, I'm gonna trust this guy that Josh knows. And that relationship has continued.

unknown 14:39

Yeah.

Gary Sigrist 14:40

And you know, so everything is built on a relationship. And so um when when you're working with your clients, don't promise something you can't deliver. If there is something that's out of your wheelhouse, say I've got a guy, which is exactly what Eric did for us when we had a new project. Hey, I got a guy, okay. I trust Eric, so I'm gonna trust the people that and and so it's it's that circle of trust that you know you are only as good as your word. And so um, you know, it it's not fake it till you make it, it's this is what I can do, and this is how I can help you. And um that's that's probably the biggest piece.

Josh Hall 15:24

That's great. That's great insight. And you know, I think it in my case being pretty early on, you were Safeguard was my biggest project at the time. But I didn't I did enjoy that. I had plenty of other projects, but I wasn't at the point to where I was overloaded with projects, so I was able to really dedicate my time to it. And um, I did pride myself on being probably I tried to be a better communicator than anything. Because one thing I learned early on is most creatives, web designers, designers, anyone in the creative field, most of them suck at getting back on time. So if you just email back within 24 hours on a weekday, you're pretty much guaranteed to make it. You're gonna have success.

Gary Sigrist 16:11

Well, and and you know, it's uh it it's customer service.

Josh Hall 16:15

Yeah, right.

Gary Sigrist 16:16

And you know, um the thing that sucks about my job is I have to have my phone all the time um because of the business that I'm in. People need me. Um but it it's also really helped my business um because people knew that I would respond to them. I never let something go. And even if I didn't have an answer for them, I let them know, hey, I have your email, I'm looking into it, I'll let you know when I have something. So I mean that's you you just have to be responsive to your clients because even though you might think not think it's important on a Saturday afternoon, it's important to them.

Long Term Support And Compliance Needs

Josh Hall 16:56

Yeah, well, and it was uh it was really a dream situation because with you being such a good communicator and very responsive, you always were really good at getting me what I needed. I never needed to hound you down for content and stuff. That that definitely made my job easier. And I think because I came from a branding and design world, to be able to help brand safeguard early on, it definitely made the website portion more fun and easier. And I'm just thinking, I I didn't really realize this now, but I mean uh we'll get into you know selling my selling of In Transit to Eric and him taking over, but I mean, Safeguard has been a client of In Transit for 14 years now. Yeah I don't think that's terribly common for uh a lot of web design agencies to say they have a 14-year-old client.

Gary Sigrist 17:44

Um but again, it's it's that um same customer service piece. And um Eric is so responsive. And um yeah, he he's so responsive, and he is you know, I I I hired someone to help me with my marketing piece, and um it's nice because I just say to her, talk to Eric. You know, Gary, I think we should do this. Okay, talk to Eric, get it done. And Eric knows that she can call the ball. And so um that's why that relationship has continued because um it's the customer service, it's the support that I get when I need it. If if I have a question, you know, the you know, uh I I don't know what the letters stand for, but VPAT for the um ADA compliance. I I don't know what that's about. I have no idea, but I hey Eric, I've got this issue coming up, and okay, here's what we'll do. And he sets a plan. And and because I don't know, because I I don't have a clue when he says this is what it's gonna take to fix it, and this is gonna be the cost, I okay. I I don't I don't argue because that's what it costs. Because I have to get it done. That's what the government says, and we're gonna get this done. But I it's important that I that that we have that he and I have that relationship that it can be done that way.

Josh Hall 19:12

Yeah, and we'll get into this. I mean, I without going too too forward too fast here, yeah. I mean, I I just knew when I got to know Eric, first as a student of mine with my courses, that if there was anybody who I trusted to do really good communication for my clients, it was Eric. I I knew that was like the the thing that I sensed in him was and what I realized was most important before turning over my clients to to a new CEO was I was like, this person has got to be a customer service person. Uh and gosh, that is so true. It's a great reminder of how important that is. And it's not like it's even hard. It's just you know, quick check-ins. I I just I tend to like group. I have a real little reactionary block of work. I've done it since like 2012. Every day I try to just quick reactionary, it could be 10 minutes. And I just try to dig it into who needs to hear from me, who's a priority, that even if it's uh just a check-in, like you said, like, hey, this isn't done, but I'm working on it. And that's it. It literally took 30 seconds out of your time.

Gary Sigrist 20:15

Yeah.

Josh Hall 20:16

Huge. So we'll get into that. It's interesting though, just for context, you know, 2012 helped you brand uh safeguard resolutions. We did the business cards, we did uh a lot of print stuff. I went to your house and shot photos of you and your previous partner, Mick, your business partner there, uh, which are still on the website. Your photo is still on the website that we did in your front room. I remember bringing all my photography stuff when I was doing photography for websites on the side. Um, and the the reason I mentioned that is it's not like the relationship ended there. I mean, it was really cool to continue to evolve my business and my skill set as your business evolved, because pretty soon you launched the mobile emergency response plan, a whole other website, a whole other brand, tied into Safeguard. I remember I started using a different website builder, and I remember having the conversation with you that, hey, um, I think we need to redesign the website. It was a couple years later, a few years after that. And I was like, I think it's time, we're a few years out, and then you were down with that. You trusted me. I think there was enough trust at that point. I even remember sitting with you at Red Robin telling you that my hourly rate was like doubling. And you made some funny jokes, but um, you know, you were down with it. I don't remember exactly all the specifics of that, but I do remember you being like, Yes, no problem, you're worth it. And it was, yeah.

Gary Sigrist 21:37

So, you know, we really but that's a that's a really good point, too, is you know, um we we probably both have a similar uh pay fee uh philosophy where pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. And you know, um I'm I'm in in some areas of my work, I'm I'm very, very expensive. Because I'm worth it. You know what I mean? But then there are other parts of my business where like when a church calls me up because the church wants help. I'm I'm you know what? They're not gonna pay me what a lawyer pays me when I work for a lawyer. You know what I mean? And so um because you have that sense of I'm gonna my skill set is what it is, and that's why people are hiring me, is because I have a certain skill set. I'm not gonna take advantage of that. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure that when my clients um do this work, when I do this work for my clients, they're getting what they pay for. And so I I never felt like, you know, I'm I'm getting hoes. He's just you know, now that he's sunk his you know hooks into me, he can no, I never felt that. It was like, yeah, this is my business is growing, his business is growing, I'm charging people more. Why shouldn't he be charging people more?

Josh Hall 22:57

Yeah, gosh, well that's so great to hear just from that end of you know, as a client. Um yeah, and I do get another, you know, just I just really appreciated that because there was no there was a couple jokes, but there was no you know, serious pushback on uh I yeah, if I remember right, I think I went from 45 to 75 an hour, um, if I remember right. So, but yeah, I mean, you know, at that point, yeah, you're like you said, if there's the other thing too is um, you know, all of us start out low when we first start out our business.

Gary Sigrist 23:28

We we have almost no overhead. I mean, uh, you know, like you said, we we met at Panera, we met at Red Robin, we met at my house, and sometimes I made lunch. You know what I mean? But it was we we were doing that because we were starting a business. And then as the business grows, and I I think this is important, if if you're if you're the web designer for a brand new startup company and and money's tight, and they have to, you know, um, they're trying to get everything done, it's it's one thing for for you to charge lower at that point. But as that business grows and they're making more money, and part of it is because of what you did. I mean, um, you know, we we have we we use search engine optimization, for lack of a better word, but uh we get so many people that are searching for things that are drawn to our website that is making our business grow. So if our business is growing because of the work that you did for us, shouldn't your rate go up as well because it you added that value to us? Does that make sense?

Raising Rates When Value Grows

Josh Hall 24:33

Absolutely. Oh, you're you're literally taking the words out of my mouth of what I tell my students, which is like, yeah, you know, when you build it it a website in an online presence is a lot more than just uh a digital business card that looks pretty. It's it's it's a part of the marketing, it's a part of a growth of your clients. And yeah, I mean, you know, of course, it can vary with how much ongoing work you're doing and everything, but uh the the the example here that's really cool to look at 14 years later is that the work we've done that I literally did over a decade ago is still the foundation that is bringing you leads today. So it's really, really cool. Um yeah, and it's awesome. And like I said, you're still with my agency, so yeah, uh it's incredible. So let's transition to that, Gary, because uh and I want you to be completely honest with me on this. Uh I'm sure everyone wants to know from a client's point of view, when your uh, you know, your dream team, your trusted webmaster comes to you and says, Hey, I'm bringing in a new CEO, I'm focusing on my passion project of teaching. I I imagine there was some understandable uh apprehension there. What was your thought when I came to you? And I this was not an easy decision. I remember shaking, sending a lot of emails out to you and some of my best clients because it's uh it was it was a you know a life-changing pivot moving into online education full time. Uh and then bringing Eric in. But what was your what were your first uh thoughts when I said, hey, I'm gonna be moving on to my passion project, and I'm you know more of a consultant to the agency now. I'm gonna bring in this guy, Eric. What was what were your initial thoughts when I said that I was moving on from you know working with the process?

Gary Sigrist 26:21

You know, obviously there's concern. You know, there's you know, I I always joke that as a police officer, there's only two things we hate things that change and things that stay the same. So, you know, I mean there there was that unknown, but um you I knew you were still gonna be there. Um, and and uh I I got to meet Eric, and you know, Eric and I um and part of it's me, I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions. I want to know about you, and I want to know, and you know, finding about um the way he they were traveling with their kids, uh, what the the things that they believed in. Um, you know, um I Eric, I you know, I and I don't I don't, you know, I'm I'm not the most religious person in the world, but I I see a Eric would talk about his faith and how his faith drove him to do certain things. And so I knew he had a moral compass, you know, and that, you know, even if I don't believe the same thing he does, he had something that drives him in a certain direction, and it was the same direction I was going, so it gave me confidence in him. Um, I will also say that Eric is very responsive. You know, when when things would come up and I would get Eric in, and it was the same thing. So it it helped that I knew that you were recommending him. Um but I also and this has probably been um and is the the biggest challenge for my company, is everything in my company is built on a relationship, and that relationship is with me. And so I've had clients that have reached out to me and said, or potential clients that said, Hey, I'd like we'd like you to do some work for us, and I didn't have the bandwidth. And maybe maybe I met him because they heard me speak at a conference or they attended one of my webinars or whatever, and I said, But I I've I've got a guy that I can bring in because you know there's there's a bunch of us who work as subcontractors for other people. And I said, I can I can send you one of my guys, and they said, No, if it's not you, we're just we're gonna hire somebody else. And it's like, you know, so don't put yourself in that position. Yeah, build that relationship, but also have as you build your business, have other people you bring into that relationship so that there isn't a fear. Because that's that's gonna be the biggest issue for me, is if they don't have me, then you know, and and that's a struggle sometimes. That that is that has hurt my business growth because I didn't hire other people to work with me.

Josh Hall 28:54

Gotcha. Yeah, and a lot to unpack there. I mean, I think at that point too, you know, we had been working together for eight years. So there was obviously years of of trust there that you had me. You knew I wasn't gonna burn you and I wasn't gonna disappear. Um, like I said, it was not something I I made that decision you know lightly. It was it was a big deal. And yeah, I didn't, you know, just fade off into the sunset. Like I still am basically a consultant in transit. So I'm kind of still a coach to Eric. And uh yeah, I basically I see behind the curtain and see everything we're doing and give my insight. Now, Eric is the show runner. There's stuff that he does that I personally wouldn't dive into, but he's wired differently and he's an entrepreneur and a marketer. Um, and I think the difference is too, I didn't build my business to exit it. I was just trying to, you know, you basically what I found as an entrepreneur is you either build a job, a business, or an exit. And at first I was just building a job. I just wanted to not work in my cabinet job again. Uh I, you know, I just didn't want to go to work nine to five, and I just wanted to do design and and have a freedom, you know, lifestyle type work, freedom. And then I realized I was building a business. And then because I got to that point where I wanted to exit it, it was pretty accidental. I accidentally, you know, came into that spot. So um I think that was to help too. It wasn't like I tried to sell it and then all my clients were like, where did Josh go? What happened? Right. So uh, and and you know, I don't know how much you could tell when we made that transition, but I did a lot of work with Eric behind the scenes. I made a video of every client, and I talked, I basically made a story of every client. I was like, okay, this is Gary. We met in 2012, his nephew is talking about. We're gonna see that video one day. I know, right? Yeah, yeah, it was all good things. I was like, Gary, a pain in the ass to work with, get ready. No, but um, I did that for everybody, and it was it was a lot of work. It was literally like all an entire month I just made a transition plan. And uh, but that really helped because when it came time for Eric to meet you, there was already some context there. Right. And, you know, to your point, because I trusted Eric, because of his communication, because of his relationship, customer service first mentality, and because he came from a pastoral background, I'm like, listen, nothing's harder than being a pastor, honestly, with as far as dealing with people and communication. So I was like, he's gonna kill it with a web design business. And it's proven true six years later. Um, so that's awesome. I just love hearing it.

Gary Sigrist 31:39

And I also would say though, that what he has done because he now has a team of employees, and sometimes I hear back from them, not from Eric.

Josh Hall 31:49

You hear back from Peter? Did does Peter get back with you?

Gary Sigrist 31:52

Yeah, yeah. You know, but but the point being is that if Eric decided I'm gonna pivot and do something different and I'm gonna sell the company to Peter, then I have confidence in that because Eric has confidence in it. And I've already dealt with Peter, and I've you know what I mean? So it's all of those things that um make a difference when you're you're building a relationship. I I mean I had a I had a school district contact me and say, hey, our state's offering something like what your c company does, so we're gonna go with what the state does. But I just want to thank you that every time we had a question or an issue, you got back with us right away. It was your customer service. And that that's you know, that made I was losing money, you know, but I I people people people appreciated the work that I did for them when they needed it done.

Josh Hall 32:42

And I feel like in uh an age of AI, and with how just you know convoluted the online world is now, I mean, when we got started working together, you know, the internet was adorable compared to where things are now. You know, now it's just great. It's just there's just so many different things going on. I mean, I'm you know, I'm in the deep end of the industry and I'm having trouble keeping up with AI and everything. But I feel like if there is ever a time to dig into personal relationships, communication, customer service, it's now because you're you're uh you're on the client side. You're probably gonna inundated with now it's AI sites or build your business with AI. But right. Um I mean, yeah, I you know, you've can you've you've been a shining example from the get-go of like strong relationships with web designers or digital marketers who know what they're doing, who care, and I can trust. I mean, I just feel like the value of that nowadays is even more so important than it was back then.

Gary Sigrist 33:46

Yeah, and and you know, uh as a client, you don't know what you don't know. And you know, um for somebody to say, you know, for for me to come in and say, well, I'd really like to do this, well, we could do it that way, but if we did it this way, this will help support your growth. Where because I don't know about web design. I don't, I don't, you know, I know the WWW stands for World Wide Web, and that's about as far as it goes. I don't understand anything else about it. And so you know, going back to that imposter syndrome, you know more than what your client does. Be be willing to share that, and by building that relationship, I I felt like in our relationship, my success was your success. You know what I mean? This this wasn't a job to you. This is here, how can I help you grow your business so that you're more successful? Great, that's what I need. So, and and you know, again, we our our website is what it is, um, but our website has grown, and our website has more things, and we get more functionality out of it and things that I never knew I'd be able to do, you know.

Josh Hall 35:01

Yeah, I kind of feel like at this stage, because I've got other clients too who have sites where I are still running 10 years later, 12 years later, some of them, and I built the foundation, and I kind of feel like a construction worker who built, you know, had a hand in building a building, and then you know, you see additions on it, and they drive by and they're like, oh, I built that. I built the foundation there. That's my work. I carved you know my initials in the concrete. Uh so it is pretty cool. Yeah. It's awesome to you know to be at this point and to be in reflection mode on a lot of this. Um, and just know that what the really cool thing with is as fast as the industry of web design and digital marketing is moving, all of the old stuff still works. You know what I mean? Like the work I did 10 years ago is still the foundation, and you don't want to blow up the foundation that you built. Right.

Gary Sigrist 35:56

Well, you know, so my question is then, you know, so some of your some of your listeners might be able to tell I'm a little bit older than most. Um, is it is it, you know, um, I'm a baby boomer? Is it diff different if you're starting with a business where they're a Gen Z or a Gen X? And you know, do they have different expectations than you know what somebody like me does? Like I said, I I grew up before Al Gore invented the internet. I, you know, you know, I I I don't know what it would like to. I I imagine your your your people you're coaching and helping are starting out with um they're younger too. So they're they're used to dealing with that mindset that's different than mine.

Josh Hall 36:43

I think there it is interesting because my um my community in listenership is all over as far as the age, actually. I'd say the median age is actually, and I think the numbers show this, it's it's probably 30s to 40s to where that's kind of my average. So they're they're around my I I'm attracting median age is about my my range. But there are a lot of uh I call them you know the web whippersnappers who are getting into it now, who are low 20s. But then I uh I have a student who's 72 right now. Uh and we're doing as a second career, they just really enjoy, it's kind of like part-time. They enjoy doing web design, and it's just kind of you know more of a paid hobby, basically. But uh there is what what I've seen from the younger generation is there's definitely the difference of delayed gratification where they they just and it's not I already sound like the old guy who's like kids these days, but uh they do, they just seem to want it like right now. And if they're not making six figures in six months, they're upset. What's wrong? And I think a lot of that is due to just online marketing and how um there are people who are influencers and people who whether it's crypto or whatever, who just are making crazy amount of money really fast, and I think that trickles down to folks. And and I I hate that for people who are younger because you know, if I had felt like I needed to rush to make six figures, I probably wouldn't have done as good a job for you right back in 2012. But I I enjoyed the process. So like if there's anything I can give on that, it's like you gotta enjoy the work and really focus on relationships, knowing that you know, bigger revenue is gonna come, more success is gonna come. But and I was also at that point where I was living with my dad in the basement. I didn't have many bills. It'd be very different if I had three kids and was starting now. Right. The price structure would look different. But um I think delayed gratification, that's the biggest shift that I've seen.

Relationships Matter More Than Tools

Gary Sigrist 38:38

Yeah, and that's um, you know, but I, you know, uh a person that neither one of us like, you know, he was always chasing that $100,000 client instead of working for $10,000, $10,000 clients. You know, and it's it's um, you know, I I've I have a library system that I hear from every three or four years. They say, hey, could you come out and do training for us again? And it's because of that relationship. They've always been happy with what I've done for them. Um and that's that's kind of nice. You know what I mean? It's but but again, it's um, and they were one of our first clients, and they were a pretty big client, and now they're just what I would call a maintenance client. When they need service now, that's what I do is I provide that service for them.

Josh Hall 39:23

So we we don't need to name names, of course, but you did have a partner in the business briefly, or I don't know if it was an official partnership or if it was more of a it was with another it was with another company.

Gary Sigrist 39:33

With another company, okay. You were you were doing some work for us then.

Josh Hall 39:37

Yes, yeah, because we were a few years into it, if I remember. And and yeah, I mean that was the only time I've ever been threatened with a lawsuit was when that went south. And uh yeah, I just remember, yeah, that was uh well, I guess what have you learned about uh because you've kept this business, you've been the CEO, you've had a couple different partners for for different reasons. Uh this was obviously one that uh did not did not work out, but right uh I was working for his company. Oh okay, got it. Okay.

Gary Sigrist 40:07

So and and it was uh, you know, I I I ignored red flags. Um, you know, um if you can't trust somebody, you know, and it's um you know, the old joke back in the interrogation room was lie a little, lie a lot. And um he had said some things that weren't true, and I well, you know, business is great, we're doing a lot of work in Southeast Asia, things are and then um I I saw the truth come out, and then that's when I said, I'm done, I'm leaving. And um that's when we started safeguard resolutions, and um yeah, he was, yeah. And I'm not I'm not allowed to tell you when he and I had a lawsuit, and I'm not allowed to tell you how it came out, but um I got a brand new zero turn lawnmower, so that's that's that's your clue, you know, uh as part of the so but again if you can't trust somebody and and you saw that he was I mean he took it out on you, you know, which was unfair because you had nothing to do with it, you know. Um and you were you were pretty early in your career, you know, because again, we were one of your first clients, but um yeah, like I said, it was the only time I've ever been threatened for with a lawsuit, uh which I was like something about the logo, I think it was.

Josh Hall 41:42

Yeah, it was obviously just you know him uh yeah, like you said, just lashing out at anything that's near him. Obviously, it wasn't uh while it was personal to me at the time, I realized that he was probably doing that to everybody. But how did you but you you retained your ownership of the business? I mean, it's it's probably a or no, did you?

Gary Sigrist 42:02

No, it was that was it took that was his business that I was vice president of.

Josh Hall 42:06

I see, okay.

Gary Sigrist 42:07

And we were doing work for him, and then I left, and that's when Mick and I, who met in the police academy, that's when he and I started Safeguard Risk Solutions. So I see we had a we had a slight relationship with you, but it was mostly the printing end. And then that's when we moved into the okay, we're starting a new company, help me. Yeah, and that's when that happened.

Josh Hall 42:32

So yeah, well, yeah, it's just a good um I thought you said it, those little red flags. I like the lie a little lie a lot. Uh those little character traits are so important. I do remember uh the the idea of like chasing a hundred thousand dollar clients and stuff, you know, those those type of things can be appealing, especially when I think when somebody's early on. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, this company, you know, this could get my work out in front of a ton of people and it could be huge. But I realized pretty quickly there, yeah, there's there's a lot of downside to chasing the the the big apples. And the the you you swing big, you fall big. They also come with a lot of I mean, you're basically like a fractional employee for really, really big accounts. And I think you and I are both wired similarly to where, like, yeah, we'd rather have a bunch of the $10,000 clients and have a more balanced life.

Patience, Big Clients, And Red Flags

Gary Sigrist 43:27

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's you know, um, the you know, obviously this is my you know second phase of life career, and I I do what more than what I did when I was working full time for somebody else. You know, and so um and and that kind of helps me out because even I I never needed to start this business. You know, I have a two pensions. I I don't I don't but I wanted to start something, I wanted to make a difference. Um I I had some um okay, my one of my favorites. You got just 30 seconds for this. This is this is my Mike Dorn story. Michael Dorn was a um he was one of the early leaders in school safety. And I had I had read a lot of his stuff. I he had made a video of his son. Uh it's it's a great video. He's standing there in a pair of blue jeans and a t-shirt, and he just starts all of a sudden pulling weapons out. You know, because it was showing how you could hide weapons on a on your person that kids could bring into school. And I remember that when I became the safety director for our school district, I had the union president call me up and said, now that you have this position, you gotta make this school safe. And I said, Well, is it unsafe? He said, Yeah, and I said, How do you know? He said, Well, that's your job to find out. And he hung up on me. So I was in a panic. And I I thought, what am I gonna do? I thought I I thought I was prepared for this job. And I called, I thought, you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna call safe havens, I'm gonna call Mike Dorne. Maybe I can talk to a secretary. And I called and he answered the phone. And I explained who I was and what I my problem was, and he said, Oh, that's easy. He said, um, and he he gave me the answer to it, and I said, Man, how can I repay you back? He said, Oh, don't worry about it. He said, if you ever need anything, just give me a call, I'll do what I can to help you. That was back in 2008, and I said, if I ever start my own business, I'm gonna be just like Mike. And and to this day, something will happen somewhere in the United States, I'll be sitting here at my desk and my phone will ring, and it'll be a school superintendent. And he'll say to me, He said, Hey, um, you know, I I I listened to you do a webinar or you spoke at a conference or whatever, and you said, if we ever have any questions, we could call you. Is this a good time? If you need me right now, this is a good time. And I'll answer the questions and I'll never charge them for it. I'll just tell them this is the answer that you need, and and then I move on. And a lot of times I can't even remember who it was. But um, that's part of that building relationships and giving that service. I didn't I didn't want to say to them, you know, okay, um, you know, like when I do work for lawyers and they call me up, I bill them at $15 a minute or $15, you know, 15 minutes it blocks. But I would never do that to somebody who needed help. Right. You know what I mean? I and and so I think that's kind of that part of that customer service thing. I wasn't worried about the money, I was worried about how how can I help people.

Josh Hall 46:25

Yeah, no, a lot of good lessons in this, Gary. Um, I'm just reminded of, especially nowadays, that importance of relationships, good communication, genuine care. And like you mentioned, building a network to where be really open and honest, like I don't know email. Here's an email user, an email guy. Uh yeah, I mean that's one reason I started my community web designer pro is we have people in different areas of expertise. And you join that and you're immediately in a network of people who do their own lanes and you can focus on what you want to do. So yeah, it's really cool to see how things are. How many things, despite changing nowadays, have also stayed exactly the same? That's that's what I've I'm taking away from this. It's just the those intangibles of just good communication.

Gary Sigrist 47:11

Um, you know, there are um there are people that have not learned the lessons that I've been teaching since early 2000 when it comes to say I mean I I think people should know this by now, and they don't. And you know, um, like I said, I have I have brand new clients that I'm thinking, you know, you don't you don't have this, you don't have this, you don't have this. And so I'm starting from scratch where I had the same clients 10 years ago when I had them, and I put them at that spot, and now they're what I call maintenance clients. Here's what you need. They they call me up and they'll say, Hey, I need something. And I I think it's kind of like what what you're what you're doing now is I don't have to um I don't have to build something for some people anymore. What I what people do is they call me and they say, you know, like I had a I had a superintendent at 7 30 yesterday morning, they texted me because they felt they needed a board policy for something they were doing in their school. And I said, Look, I have a meeting at 8 30, but I'll get you what I can before that meeting. And so that's what I did. I I here's what here here are some policy things you need. Take them. And um, that's easy. You know, that's it goes back to what you said. That's teaching. I'm not building now, I'm teaching people how to build what they need. Yeah, and that's kind of a cool thing to be able to do.

Josh Hall 48:38

And I feel like the I feel like maintenance type work and ongoing work becomes a lot easier when you know when you trust somebody because you just get right down to it. And they trust you, you trust them. Work gets easier. Like, you know, what 10 years or eight years after us working together, if you needed something, you knew I'd get it to you, I know you'd be responsive, boom, easy peasy. Yeah, it wasn't like I don't know, I gotta track this down, or I don't know if I trust Gary to do this. No, it's like the work got easier and easier the the more you trust somebody.

Gary Sigrist 49:06

So and and I and I would say that that that made it easy when you know we we talked earlier about you know uh VPAT and and making sure that our websites and you know were VPAT certified. And because I had that trust and they said this is how much it's gonna cost, you know, okay, bill me, you know, because I that relationship was there. But did you ever get burned getting paid at first by anybody?

Josh Hall 49:35

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. I had quite I learned never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever to do work without getting a deposit first. I learned that very early on because I had some where I like I would do the whole project and then send the bill and then they just disappear. One guy changed his phone number. I was like, what, what happened? And it was off of like a $150 project. So yeah, I learned early on. Yeah, uh protect that at all costs. Yeah.

Gary Sigrist 50:04

Well, that see, and that's a that's a good lesson because, you know, um, you know, I have a I have a bachelor's in elementary education, I have a master's in school administration, and I've been to the police academy. I I have not I have no knowledge about business. Uh the that's been the hardest part for me is the business part of the business. I can do the work, it's the business part. And, you know, I've talked to guys that you know went to college and were dentists, and I said, Well, what do they teach you about running a dental practice? Nothing. They didn't give us any training in that. Yeah. Well, you know what? That's if if you're going to be in business, here are some things that could make it easier for you on the business part of it.

Josh Hall 50:41

Yeah, and that's that's exactly what I do now, primarily is and it the this this show is called the Web Design Business Podcast, because in even my community, it's called Web Designer Pro, but it's really all about business. I'm helping web designers become business owners. Because just like me, you want to do some creative work, you start getting jobs, next thing you know, as long as you make 600 bucks a year in the States, you're paying taxes, you got a business. So here we are. Uh, but it's uh yeah, it's really, really awesome. Um, like I said, I uh this has been really great, Gary, to have you, you know, 14 years later and to look back through this journey. I think it's like I said publicly, it's an honor to to have helped you build the the foundations of what Safeguard Resolutions is today and to see the the website still in the air, you know, way over 10 years later. Um it's awesome to hear about how Eric and the team has continued to take care of you. Uh glad that my gut feeling was correct back in 2020 when when I sold in transit to Eric and retained more of a consultant role in the business. So yeah, this is awesome. What uh you know, if you told me in 2012 that I would have a podcast and Gary would come on as a guest and talk about it, I don't know. I don't know what I would have thought back then, but this is pretty cool.

Gary Sigrist 51:55

So so how many uh you looking back, how many of your clients are still in existence?

Serve First And Teach What Works

Josh Hall 52:01

There's quite a few. Um Eric sent me an update uh because I asked him recently to kick off the year, like how many original clients from in transit? And of course, we actually had some clients who had passed away over the past few years. We've had some that have moved on to different businesses. Um but there was a good amount of folks who were are still within transit looking through to see if I can find this.

Gary Sigrist 52:30

I mean, because for you know, they always say that what most most businesses, most startup businesses fail, which you know, your your your community has to be thinking to themselves, man, is this gonna happen to me? Am I gonna be that guy? But you know.

Josh Hall 52:44

Yep. And I think a lot of it, oh yeah. So I'll I'll I'll follow up with Eric. I am curious, yeah, how many are are still on the roster, but a lot of the business, I actually didn't work with too many startups. Uh there weren't there were quite a few who we did like a ground up brand, but a lot of folks did have an established business, and I would redo their website. And then they love the website, they'd want marketing materials. Um, like one of my favorite clients as well is uh as a uh surgeon, like an eye surgical place in Columbus called the Retina Group. And their website that I did in 2015 is still up. And yeah, I remember they were a referral and then did the website, and then we did business cards and the whole thing, and yeah, it's still kicking today. So um that was a lot of the those are probably the majority of the projects were a redesign of a of a bad website. Um but I I actually, you know, I the one reason I I did love the work for Safeguard was not only because you were a great client to work with, but it was fun to feel ownership in somebody's brand. You know, like you said, you do better, I do better. It's I love win-wins. I love win-win scenarios.

Gary Sigrist 53:53

And I'll just I'll just throw one other thing about Eric is you know, we are we are doing some software upgrades. And, you know, so because of that relationship with Eric, I said, Oh, hey, Eric, this is what we want to do. And Eric said, you know, he got back to me and said, Look, I've got a company that, you know, I could do this as a pass-through and just charge you and pay them. He said, but I'm just gonna hand them off to you and you can work with them. And that has been a good relationship. So, you know, it again, it's that trust for Eric and then the honesty that I could I could be paying 10% more than what I'm paying, because Eric said they're gonna subcontract for me and I'm just gonna take my 10% and do that, you know, and and that to me, that's important. That's that that's that trust. That's that, okay. So now if I if I do something else, I'm always gonna give Eric the first right of refusal. Yeah. Because I know I can trust him, you know.

Josh Hall 54:53

And that's a good example of I think lifetime value versus like a short-term win where it's like, ooh, we could get 10% out of this client extra for a year, versus like just talk to them directly. You'll save a little bit. You're my client. We want to serve you for as long as you're in business. That's so much more valuable. That's the way that's the way to do business. I yeah, I love hearing that he's you know, just as stand-up guy as I as I thought he was when we met. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Well, Gary, thank you so much for your time. This has been great, man. It's been great talking about it's it's it's been fun to really dig into this, you know, our working relationship for this long.

Gary Sigrist 55:31

One of these days we'll go back to Banera Bread for lunch and where it all started.

Josh Hall 55:34

Deal. Well, I don't look, I'm gonna say it publicly. Uh, your next round of business cards are on me. I'm not gonna charge you for speaking of taking care of your clients, they're on me. I think they're like $75 for $500. Probably not even that. I'll take care of it. I will dig up the file. I know I have the file.

Gary Sigrist 55:50

Okay, I appreciate that. Well, and here's the that's the thing because this will be the third round of business cards I've had to order in the lifetime of our company because that's how we're doing.

Josh Hall 56:01

Yeah. So true that. Yeah. Because I probably got you what, a thousand, you know, back in what yeah.

Gary Sigrist 56:06

And the only reason you're getting me 500 this time is because I'm gonna sell the business in 2027.

Josh Hall 56:13

So really, okay.

Gary Sigrist 56:14

Yeah, that's uh I'll be 67. Uh-huh. Um, I've I've got grandkids that live in, I have three grandkids that live a mile from me. I have two grandkids that live in Maine. And I want to be able to go to Maine more often.

Josh Hall 56:27

Gotcha. Okay, so it's your time to exit now. Okay, fascinating. Well, luckily you'll have an incredible marketing team with Eric and in transit for the transition. So um, so yes, I'll get some business cards to you. One of the rounded corners, what do we do? Glossy front, map back?

Gary Sigrist 56:43

Uh, I don't uh I I don't know. Whatever, look at the first year order, and that's what we did. Yeah.

Josh Hall 56:49

I still have so I use a company called Got Print, and uh I still I'm sure the records are still all there. So actually, I could probably just log in there and just reorder because phone number's the same, email's the same. Everything's the same. Okay, I'll just get that going. Um do we need to put grandpa in the title, or do we still yeah, Jair Tall Fizz.

Gary Sigrist 57:10

Um you know what? That I I will say this about that. Uh some of your people that um I wish now, but I would have gotten a different phone number. Oh because when I end my business, that phone number is still gonna be there.

Josh Hall 57:23

Oh, believe me, I'm getting the spam calls still. Even though Eric's number is on our Google profile and everything, I'm still getting. Hi, Josh. Do you need employee benefits for in transit? I I mean my I gotta change my phone number at some point. It's I still get them.

Gary Sigrist 57:37

Just let everyone know when you do that.

Josh Hall 57:39

Yeah, right. I'll just give everyone Eric's number still. Awesome. Well, Gary, thanks so much for your time, and this has been awesome. Uh can't wait to hear about how the exit goes here next year.

Gary Sigrist 57:49

Okay, we'll talk to you later.

Josh Hall 57:52

Well, that was pretty freaking cool, I have to say. That was such a fun conversation. It was really good to reconnect with Gary. And this is the kind of thing where uh what sometimes people ask me, do you miss doing work for clients? I'm like, you know what? I actually ordered some business cards for Gary that from the design that I did nearly a decade ago that I re-uh pre-ordered for him. And I was like, yeah, sometimes I do. I miss working with clients when they are really good people and really good clients, and Gary was certainly at the top of that list. One of my A clients felt more importantly, I will I hope you got a lot out of this conversation because you get to hear from somebody who is a decision maker on twin and how they feel comfortable hiring particularly. So uh I really hope this helps you uh just build situations in my case being able to grow with my file and my five speed with T. I can't wait to get Gary with Love Curve 12. This website, all the links we cover are going to be over. So head over there, drop a comment, and go check out Gary's website, safeguardresolutions.com, which is still optimal live and kick in, uh because it was designed by yours truly back in I think we did that one in 2016, if I remember right, that version. So go check it out. And uh tell Gary, you uh heard them on the website and business podcast. All right, my friend, stay subscribed because we've got some other awesome up code right ahead.