Greatest Hits: Amy Porterfield "you can't believe everything you think."

This episode is our first ever greatest hits episode. I'm doing this for a couple reasons:

1. Number one, I am getting caught up on some podcast interviews because I've been a little busy with Pro Con recently and some other stuff going on, and number two…
2. I wanted to dig up some episodes from the past that I think are very relevant and more applicable than ever today in 2026. And that is definitely the case with this interview, which was with Amy Porterfield.

For new listeners to the show, you're coming into the podcast in the 400s and you may not know about what episodes are back in the hundreds or the two hundreds or three hundreds, even before that. So the ones that are really good, I want to make sure they continue to live on. And that's definitely the case with this conversation with Amy because it’s more relevant than ever, all about trusting yourself and preparing yourself to do this sustainably and do it for the long haul.

Plus, she laid down one of my favorite quotes in the podcast to date:
“you can't believe everything you think.”

True in good times and bad times, and in this age of change and flux and everything that's going on in all markets with AI and abroad, this conversation could not be more timely. 

In this one, we cover:

• Amy's path from corporate security (including 7 years at Tony Robbins) to going all-in on online business
• Why the early dip happens and how to push through it
• Shifting from one-on-one service work to digital courses — and why that change saved her business
• Getting through rough seasons by leaning on your support system and mentors
• The mindset motto that keeps Amy grounded: "You can't believe everything you think"
• How transparency in online business has changed — and the "scab vs. wound" method for sharing authentically
• What building an online course used to look like vs. today
• Why your "why" evolves over time — and how that fuels longevity
• Hustle as a short-term season, not a long-term identity
• How Amy moved her whole team of 20 to a four-day workweek — and what changed
• Owning your calendar as the boss (including Hobie's legendary line)
• The simplicity move: doubling down on what works and cutting what doesn't

This was originally episode 185, so head to the OG show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/185

Transcript

Greatest Hits And Why It Matters

Josh Hall 0:00

Hello, my friend. This episode is our first ever greatest hits episode. I'm doing this for a couple reasons. Number one, I am getting caught up on some podcast interviews because I've been a little busy with Pro Con recently and some other stuff going on. And number two, I wanted to, I'm gonna do this every once in a while, which is to dig up some episodes from the past that I think are very relevant and more applicable than ever today in 2026. And that is definitely the case with this interview, which was with Amy Porterfield. I had her back on in episode 185. And another reason I'm doing this too is I realize new listeners to the show, you know, you're coming into the podcast in the 400s. You may not know about what episodes are back in the hundreds or the two hundreds or three hundreds, even before that. So the ones that are really good, I want to make sure they continue to live on. And that's definitely the case with this conversation with Amy, because this one is is really about trusting yourself and preparing yourself to do this sustainably, sustainably, and do it for the long haul. And she says a quote in this one that has never left my mind, and it is that you can't believe everything you think. This is true in good times and bad times, and in the case with Amy here, um, so timely and so applicable, especially in this age of change and flux and everything that's going on in all markets with AI and abroad. So I think this conversation like could not be more timely. It's why I wanted to bring it back up and bring it back to life here for you. This was originally episode 185, so I'll make sure that is linked below. If you want to check the show notes out with a full transcript and all links mentioned, but again, this was with the one and only Amy Porterfield. The first time she was on the show. I hope to have her back on again soon. But for now, enjoy our original conversation from back in 185 with again the one and only Amy freaking Porterfield. Amy, welcome to the show. It is an absolute honor to have you on. Welcome. Thanks for taking some time.

Amy Porterfield 2:02

I am so honored to be here. What a what a great experience. I'm so glad I got to know you even more. So thanks for having me.

Josh Hall 2:09

Well, it was funny. So I have a web design community, a coaching community, and I put out a little teaser there and a couple other places online that you are going to be joining the show. And the the reaction and response I got was like, it proved to me that you are legendary status as an entrepreneur and an online marketer, which is why I'm extra excited to have you on. And uh, we were just chatting before we went live. I really would love to talk about longevity and what it takes to consistently, you know, be in this online entrepreneurial world and not get burnt out, not fade away like so many people do. So if that sounds good, I figure that's what we'll dive into today.

Amy Porterfield 2:48

I love this topic because I feel like if you work that hard to build this business and do all the things it takes to get it off the ground, you might as well be here 15, 20 years down the road. And so, but there's some things you gotta do in order to keep that staying power going. So I love this topic.

Josh Hall 3:04

Yeah, and that's what I kind of thought it'd be interesting to focus on, is not necessarily the very start, which I know a lot of people ask you the, you know, when I'm just starting, what do I do? Always. I would love to focus on like the few years into it when you get into those low points and high points. So really excited about this. I would love to start off though. I always ask my guests this question. When somebody asks you the inevitable question, what do you do? For you, Emmy Porterfield, for those who don't know you, you know, like a somebody at Target, what did that, what do you say? What do you tell them?

Amy Porterfield 3:34

So I tell people that I help entrepreneurs build their businesses online. That would be someone who's like at Target that has no idea who I am or about the world of online marketing. But when I talk about what I do to someone that might be a little bit more in the know, I will say that I help people take their knowledge, know-how, and skill set and turn that into a profitable digital course that they can launch over and over again. But when I do that last part to someone who has no clue, they look at me like I'm a little bit weird and they might have two heads. So I keep it pretty general that I help people build businesses online.

Josh Hall 4:08

Okay. Oh, that because that could even work for like a grandma or something, right?

Amy Porterfield 4:11

Exactly. That's like my dad who still doesn't totally understand what I do.

From Corporate Security To Freedom

Josh Hall 4:16

Yeah, exactly. I have such a hard time saying what I do now as a course creator, as a coach, as a podcaster, as a YouTuber now. It's such a hard question. So I'm always curious about what people say. Um now, let's let's I don't want to stay in the beginning years too too long, but for those who don't know you, Amy, or maybe aren't familiar with your story, where did your entrepreneurial journey start? Where did it all begin for you?

Amy Porterfield 4:41

So it's such a great question because I actually never, ever thought that I would be an entrepreneur. Like I've been in I was in corporate since I got out of high or got out of college. And so I always thought I would uh climb that corporate ladder and get that corner office and be a VP somewhere. And and I was, and I love security. So I thought that's gonna feel really good. I get the benefits, I get the regular paycheck, I get the accolades, like bring it on. I was a corporate girl for life. And then, long story short, when I was working at Tony Robbins, I was about year six. I was the director of content development and I started to hear all the things that Tony taught. You know, I started to really let it sink in, being your own boss, being an entrepreneur, having that freedom. And then started to find out different ways that people were going out on their own. And something just hit me. And I thought, I want it. I want the freedom. I want to do something different, I want to teach online. And so that's when I kind of got that entrepreneurial bug. And about year seven into my Robin's uh work, I made the big exit and started my own online business.

Josh Hall 5:45

Gotcha. And that actually kind of leads to a question I wanted to ask you, which is do you feel like you've always been an entrepreneur at heart and it came out, or do you feel like you had to like become an entrepreneur?

Amy Porterfield 5:57

I absolutely had to become an entrepreneur. So when I thought about going out on my own because I had that itch for freedom and I wanted to be my own boss, I wanted to call the shots. I I've had a boss all my life. I tease, you know, I grew up with a really strict father, and then I got into corporate and had all these usually male bosses, and I didn't know what it was to like think on my own. So I started to want and desire that. But I looked at one of my girlfriends that I worked with at Robbins and I said, You're a writer. You could go and freelance and be a writer and do your thing. I have no skill set that would lend itself to be my own boss. I honestly believe that. And she looked at me and she's like, What are you talking about? You could take all these skills and move it into your own business. But at the time it felt very foreign. So, anyone that's listening that thinks, like, I don't know if I have what it takes. I am not an ant a natural entrepreneur. I kind of just taught myself how to be one. So I think anyone can teach themselves how to move into that entrepreneurial world.

Josh Hall 6:56

I'm glad to hear that, honestly, because I think that's where a lot of people tend to limit themselves, is they're like, I'm just not this person. I don't, I can't communicate. Well, I'm not good on camera. That's a biggie, especially nowadays. A lot of the people that I teach are web designers. Most web designers don't get into the game to be on camera. They want they want to be on behind a computer. So that's actually why I'm like extra passionate about talking about communication and being on camera and just putting yourself out there. But it's good to know that you came from that world because to be honest, Amy, I would think the polar opposite. Knowing your brand now, and because, like I mentioned before we went live, I was a little more recent to the Amy Porterfield brand and your stuff. I'm like a super fan, you know, I'm listening to you every day now, but um I'm a little later, so I didn't see that progression in your journey, whereas a lot of people, and maybe that's kind of interesting for you. I know that the same is for me. A lot of people are like, How are you so good on camera? I'm like, look at some of my videos from four years ago, and you'll see a very different Josh.

Amy Porterfield 7:56

Yes, I have so many of those videos. I used to do more YouTube than I do now, and I've got this one video. I have like super short hair. I am very kind of quiet. I'm like, who is that girl? I was kind of quiet, kind of timid. I'm pretty sure I was reading notes that were on my computer screen. And I remember thinking, I am not cut out for this video thing. I hated video in the first few years. Uh, when Facebook Live first came out, that's when I know I've been around for a while because Facebook Live wasn't around when I came on the scene. But when it became a thing, I prayed it would be really unsuccessful and not work out. So I wouldn't have to do Facebook Live. These days I do like five Facebook Lives a week. I was just gonna say a little OEC. Yeah. I would have never believed that. So it just takes time. I mean, I've been in it for almost 14 years. So you gotta be patient with yourself.

Josh Hall 8:47

Aaron Powell Yeah. So when did when did you start? When did you start your own business? That was that two.

Amy Porterfield 8:52

2010 officially.

Josh Hall 8:54

Okay.

Amy Porterfield 8:55

Yeah. So two how so how many years is that? So uh 12 right now officially, but sounds like so 2009 is when I left Robbins. But I don't count 2009 because it was a little bit of a shaky year. I had like one foot in, one foot out. So 2009 when I left, but 2010 is when I officially had my first full year. So 13 years.

Josh Hall 9:17

Is it safe to say you fumbled into it, or did you start? And this bleeds into this topic of longevity, I feel, because I did not start my business and go like, I'm gonna start my web design business, and here's my five-year plan. Like a lot of web designers and web entrepreneurs I know, I just fumbled into it. I don't know if you know this, Amy, but I was a cabinet maker by day working on Tour Bus customizing shops, and I was a drummer in a rock band at night. And I got laid off in 2009 and I started doing graphic design for my band. And I was playing a festival, and somebody asked me how much I would charge to design their t-shirt, and it was like a light bulb moment for me that started this career for me into graphic design and eventually web design. But I say that to say I fumbled into this. I did not like, you know, start and go for it. Was it the same for you, or were you a little more organized and tactful when you started?

The Early Dip And Model Change

Amy Porterfield 10:08

First of all, I love that you and I both started in 2009. So that's really cool. So, you know, we're kind of OGs now. Like we've been around for a while. I remember when I felt young in this industry. I do not feel young anymore for the record. Um, but okay, so I did not know what the heck I was doing. I it's really interesting. I always knew I wanted to create digital courses and teach what I knew to the masses. Meaning, I knew I didn't love one-on-one work. Um, and I knew I wanted to teach through digital courses from day one, but I had no idea how to do that on my own. So when I left Robins and went out on my own, I needed to make money quickly. I did not save a bunch of money. So I started to take one-on-one clients and I did social media for small businesses. Okay. And so it was like a service-based business. I had one or two clients before I left, so I had a little bit of momentum, and I started to take these clients. And soon I was two years in with about eight to ten clients and hated the business I created. I didn't like working one-on-one. I had horrible boundaries. I said yes to everything these um customers of mine wanted, and I felt resentful toward them, and I thought, this is not the business I thought I would create. And where the heck is this freedom like sitting on a beach, drinking a Mai Thai, typing on my laptop? Where is that? Like that's not happening in my world. So I got really scared that maybe I made a big mistake. And then I thought, wait a second, what if I change my business model? So two years into it, I changed my business model to do just digital courses and I found my groove. But two very messy years, 2011, I went into debt. That's how really messy it was. And then by 2012, finally found my groove.

Josh Hall 11:57

So this is really common, maybe not on that level, but I have seen a lot of business owners over the years, just as an observer, I essentially went from being a freelancer, web designer to being a business owner, and now I consider myself an entrepreneur. But I've seen a lot of people have a lot of success and fire in the beginning, and then there's always this like dip. And there's whether it's a month, whether it's two weeks, or whether it's like a year or longer, I always tell my students when they're in this dip, just keep persistent, stay there. All the things that it sounds like you went through, because it does sound like it's really common. Like no matter who you are, where you are, it's always like it's like a roller coaster. You get, you know, you get going, and then there's always a weird dip in there. Have you seen that in a lot of people that you've worked with as well?

Amy Porterfield 12:41

You know, I'm glad you brought that up. Now that I think about it and working with my students, absolutely, but I never identified it like that. And I don't know why it happens, because you're right. 2010, I made more than what I made in corporate. 2011, I literally went backwards. And maybe it's because in the beginning we take on everything. We say yes to anything. We are hustlers. But that gets you to a point that you start making mistakes. You're a little bit messier, you're rushing things, and things kind of can fall apart pretty quickly. And I think you got to feel that pain, and you're right, stick with it. So then you can figure out how to get out of it. But you also learn what you do not like. Like I am very clear what I do not like in terms of how to run a business. So I think you need to figure that stuff out in the in the very beginning.

Hard Seasons Support And Self-Trust

Josh Hall 13:25

Gosh, that's very well said. That's sound advice for anyone, I think, especially early on, like if this has not happened yet, because it just know it's going to happen. You're not alone. But even for folks like me who've been in it for over a decade now, um, I've definitely learned to try to avoid that. I was gonna ask this later on, but I think now's a good time for this, Amy. For you look at you, and I'm saying this for everybody who who's for any successful entrepreneur who's, you know, a leader in in this space. It seems like Amy and her team has everything's just firing on all cylinders. It seems like everything's going awesome. Although you're very open about the the things that you go through. And my question would be what are some tips that you have when you do go through those rough patches? And I think you mentioned more recently there's a bit of a rough patch in your business. And I actually ended the year off last year, like gangbusters, like best two months I've ever had, November, December, January, and February this year were two of my lowest months since I started this brand. So I'm still learning that too. Like when you go through those low patches, what's what's some of your tips and advice for people to get through those low patches?

Amy Porterfield 14:32

I love this question because there's no way to avoid those rough patches, and they're going to happen. So you and I have been in business for a really long time and we're still experiencing those. Uh, 2021 was my least favorite year in business and really yeah. It just 2019 and 2020 gangbusters, like the biggest years I've ever had. And 2021, it just I I lost, I had moved from California to Nashville. I uh got into a crazy depression slash anxiety thing that I've talked very publicly on my own podcast, and everything just felt hard last year. So it was one of those years that I literally would love to just erase. But I also, if you go back a few years, uh, I was in my business for, I don't know, three or four years, and I decided to take on a partner. And so there was a guy that was in a mastermind with me that so incredibly smart. We got together, we had this idea. Why don't you come into my business, be a 50-50 partner, and we'll do this together? And so we did, things exploded. We did amazing, amazing things together. And then it got to a point a few years in that I realized this isn't a good fit for me anymore. I felt like I was giving away a lot of just myself. I was letting him kind of call the shots and run. And that really is a reflection of some work I needed to do for myself. But I was ready to end the partnership and it got messy. And without getting into a lot of the details, we weren't sure how we were going to separate this company. But in my mind, I'm like, I birthed this company. This is my baby, and I thought I was going to lose it. And so this went over for about a year where we had to figure out how to go our separate ways. And I cried a lot days I did not want to get out of bed because I thought I had messed up and I was going to lose the thing that was so incredibly important to me. Long story short, we were definitely able to come to after a year an agreement and went our separate ways. But that experience, what I took away from that, and to answer your question about, you know, what do you do through the hard times? I had to find the people in my life that would support me through it. So there were there were a few people on my team, and then of course, my husband that I confided in, that I checked in with, that checked in with me. You can't do this all alone. Entrepreneurship can be so incredibly lonely if you let it. So I got on the phone. I told my friends or those closest to me, I'm really struggling. I'm really afraid right now. I went to my mentor, people that have gone before me and had success, a few of them, and I confided in them and got advice. So don't be afraid to ask for advice. Ask for help. Reach out to people that you know will love you through it, because you should not have to go through the hard times in your business alone. So that's tip number one.

Josh Hall 17:15

I was just gonna ask. So was that last year? Is that right? No, that was that previous to that. Okay, a few years ago. Okay.

Amy Porterfield 17:23

Yeah, thank God. It's in my past.

Josh Hall 17:26

Well, I was just gonna say, because I definitely did not, if that was the case last year, I did not see that. If it makes you feel any better though, Amy, in 2021, that's when I was really exposed to your stuff and made a massive impact, massive impact on me and my family. I'm a student of yours now in your list builder society course, which I highly, highly, highly recommend for everybody, everybody listening. Um so, you know, hopefully that helps. Hopefully that makes the gear better.

Amy Porterfield 17:54

It does. It actually makes me feel really great because even when I was going through really hard times last year, someone like you, who is such a superstar, found my stuff valuable. I mean, that is incredible. So I guess that's such a great lesson for people listening. You can be open, you can share your challenges, you can do all that stuff. That doesn't mean that your business has to come to a standstill, that you still can't add value. And every day I think it's not about me, it's about those that I serve. So, how can I share in a way that will resonate with them, but also still continue to move forward and do the things that I do best? And so I think we can all get through hard times, but still allow our businesses to thrive and serve people.

Josh Hall 18:36

You know, here's what's funny about that. Like I mentioned, end of 2021, crazy numbers for me.

Amy Porterfield 18:42

That's so incredible. I'm jealous. That's so great.

Josh Hall 18:45

For me, but uh beginning of 2022, not so great numbers. But here's the dichotomy of that. End of 2021, I didn't get that many like impactful messages saying you've you know changed my life, here's where I'm at. I got more in the beginning of this year in 2022. So, in a way, it was more for fulfilling. Like the numbers weren't as good, but I was more fulfilled day to day with what I'm doing with my students and my coaching community. So I guess I kind of cut you off. You said there was one tip there. Is that another tip, though, that you have to listen to your students and the people you're helping to help you get through those rough times?

Amy Porterfield 19:20

Absolutely. I love that you bring that up. I have a box in my office of cards, like physical cards that I get at my P.O. box, that people are just saying, thank you. I appreciate it. I applied this, this is what happened. And I keep those cards close by. And on the really tough days, and you can bet I did this in 2021, the tough days, I would open it up and remind myself, Amy, you're doing good in this world. You are adding value in each person as a human being that counts. And so, yes, let your students remind you of why you're in it and why you do what you do. I think that's a huge piece of it. And the other thing I'll share real fast is when you're going through some hard times, let's say conversions are down, your webinars aren't doing as well, you're not getting as many clients as you hoped, or like in your situation, you came off of two great months and then two great months, not so great. And you can quickly go to I'm not relevant anymore. Um, I'm not as powerful as I used to be in my industry, I've lost it, my best years are behind me, all these crazy thoughts. And you cannot believe everything you think. It's a motto I live by. I have to remind myself of this daily because I can do so, I can go some dark places in my head. You cannot believe everything you think. And just because it's a thought, what I've learned is to say, okay, so yeah, I've got that thought, but I also can prove it otherwise. I'm always looking for reasons to prove that that's not true if it's a negative thought. And then I just move on. I don't beat myself up over those thoughts. I don't believe them, but they're there and you've got to remind yourself they never go away. 13 years in, they're still there.

Josh Hall 20:56

That's honestly so well, it sucks to hear that because I know that's what we're all in for. But at the same time, I love hearing that because it tells me that you are human, Amy. Even at your level, you go through it just like we go through. And I do think, and again, you do such a good job online, I feel, of being transparent and real, where that's not the case with a lot of entrepreneurs. But you can still see somebody like yourself and feel like they're, you know, Amy's just so far ahead of where I am, and I'm feeling these thoughts, and it's just me. It's like I feel alone in this. But it's it's honestly good to know that everyone goes through these feelings and these thoughts. And no, yeah, the numbers might be different, but at the end of the day, the core problems and struggles seem to be the same as far as good months, bad months, what you do through them.

Transparency Scabs And Online Evolution

Amy Porterfield 21:40

Absolutely. And you know, you're giving me such a compliment, even though you don't know it, to say you're so transparent and open because I haven't always been. I actually used to kind of get called out a little bit and uh probably year four or five people are like, you never share anything personal. And I come from corporate thinking everything needs to be buttoned up and professional. And only talk about work.

Josh Hall 22:01

And then I realized email signature that says warmest regards. Exactly.

Amy Porterfield 22:06

Exactly. That's the world I come from. And then I realized, oh, that doesn't work on social media. No one wants to see the polishy, shiny part of you all the time. And so I don't know where I learned this, but I really do subscribe to this. I typically, when I want to share my challenges and my struggles, I tend to wait until it's a scab and I instead of sharing from an oozy wound that I'm still in. Now, once in a while I will share when the when it's an oozy wound, kind of still open, kind of still fresh, but I share just a little and don't go down a rabbit hole because I have nothing to offer except I'm struggling. But what I love to do is share the scabs where I struggled. Here's what it felt like, here's what it looked like when I was in it. It wasn't that long ago, but I've found some ways to move past it and I want to share that with you. Then I feel like I can share the truth, but also share value as well. I think I I'd rather hear from people's scabs so I can get the value what to do instead, versus always just the oozy wounds where there's like, you've left me raw and I can't do anything. So that's typically like the philosophy I use with transparency.

Josh Hall 23:15

So it's like sharing something that you just learned from as opposed to like venting what you're going through, which is what a lot of people do on social media. And it's also a little wild. It gets a little wild, that's a nice way to put it. It's also different than you saying, like, here's a lesson I learned 10 years ago that you went through. It's like it just happened, which I think so. We're recording this on April 19th. I'm gonna get this out in a couple weeks after we record because my audience is so pumped to hear from you. Um, but I think in this latest episode of your podcast, you mentioned you just recently went through a bit of a kind of a rough sort of season in your business with a team members switching roles and stuff. So for me, that puts me at ease to know, like even at your level, again, you're still going through challenges. It's not like it's Dacri's on the beach every day and there's no problems, which is I and I think you're hitting on an interesting point right now, Amy, which is, and we've talked about this a lot on the show recently. The more transparent and less guarded you are, the better you'll flourish in the online world now. Because, like you mentioned, you come from corporate. I do not come from corporate. So for me, it was like the I came from the opposite world. I came from like being so transparent that people were like, Josh just shared what he made this month. What is wrong with him? And so, but it's that's very different now. Like, and that's actually another question I had for you. So you got started in you know, 2008, 2009, 10. What was the what was the landscape like in online entrepreneurship then as opposed to now? I mean, 10 years later, 12 years later, completely different, especially as an online woman entrepreneur. I have all girls in my house. You can probably see right here. I got a wife, two little girls, four and two. I do have my first boys on the way uh coming October. So got a little man joining us, but um, that looked very different on in the online world back then, right?

Amy Porterfield 25:03

Oh my goodness. Yeah, such a great question. So in 2009, well, 2008, you're right, is when I started to explore this world. 2009, when I went out on my own, kind of. Uh, there were hardly any women doing what I do. Like I could name three, maybe, that I remember like really prominent up there with the boys. It was a good old boys' club. And when I came on the scene, it was such a good old boys' club, like the guy standing in front of Ferrari and talking about how they never work and all that good stuff. And it just felt really hokey to me, but I I didn't know any better. And and quite honestly, I learned from the guys in the beginning. So I really can't knock them, although it seemed a little cheesy some of how they were marketing. I learned from them because there weren't that many women doing what I'm doing. Also, social media was very different back then. Uh selfies and uh stories and lots of video, that was really not the norm. Uh when I first started doing webinars, no one showed their face. In fact, back then it was like teleseminars. Remember teleseminars? So that was very different. So, what I've learned along the way is transparency has become the norm. Back then it was absolutely not. And also, people weren't just sharing for the sake of sharing. So I really had to learn to open up because back then it was a whole different world.

Josh Hall 26:29

Definitely the sharing aspect. I think that's true. Even from my experience, and again, I I don't consider myself, or I didn't, an entrepreneur until really the past couple years, because I was just a freelancer and I didn't listen to any entrepreneurial stuff, no videos. Oh it was all just learning web design. That was that was it. That was my thing. And then when I became a business owner, I started getting exposed to authors like Seth Godin and others on the business side of things. And then more recently, uh again, I feel like a bit of a baby in the entrepreneurial world because it is where it is now. But I have to say, going back to the question that I asked you earlier, do you feel like you became an entrepreneur or were you, you know, did you have an entrepreneur inside you? I actually feel I thought I was gonna be right in alignment with you, Amy, as far as my feeling, but I actually think I'm opposite. I think I had an entrepreneur inside of me that is now like more pumped and more stoked and more fired up than you can imagine because I am like built for online entrepreneurship.

Amy Porterfield 27:30

I love to hear that. That it's gonna feel great.

Josh Hall 27:33

It feels so good. And I'm not saying that boastfully, I'm saying like there is this world, and I think this breeds into longevity and the idea of doing this for the long haul. And I was gonna ask you this later. Let me ask you this now. Are you like how excited are you about the landscape now of online entrepreneurship? Because personally, like I just said, it's it is like built for me. I was not a great student, I wasn't a bad student, but I just I hated being in school. I hated it. I hated high school, I hated taking tests. I got a D in typing, Amy, and I type all the time now. And I do more copywriting and like coaching via typing than I ever, you know, that's what I do. Um, so I am not made for the academic corporate world. Online entrepreneurship, though, right in alignment with my personality type. So, you know, putting it to the question to you, how do you feel about the landscape now? And does it excite you that there's so many opportunities now, with whether it's courses, freelancing, coaching, whatever it is?

Amy Porterfield 28:31

I am so excited about what I'm seeing and what's coming down the pipeline. And I say that because there's so many opportunities. You know, looking back at when I first got started versus now, you can get in a whole lot easier. You've got more options for business models. We were just talking the other day, my friend and I, about influencers. And I'm like, can you believe those people are making tons of money doing what they're doing? You know, 10 years ago, that didn't even exist. That's like a wild position. But I remember when social media manager was kind of wild and weird and like, what do you do? So it's evolved so very much. And I think what I'm most excited about is that so many different types of personalities can shine online. If you're willing to put yourself out there, if you're willing to get on video, if you're willing to, you know, lend your voice to your podcast and do that kind of thing, your life can be dramatically different. So I'm working on a book called Two Weeks Notice, and it's about how to quit your job and start an online business. And the reason I'm writing that book is because there are so many people, and this is different than you and I, but so many people that don't even know this world exists. Like they don't get how exciting this is. And I think I'm most excited because I get to call the shots. I get to be my own boss, I get to be creative in the way I want to be creative. And that will never ever happen in a corporate job. So I think there's so much opportunity, so much excitement, so many different things you can do. And you don't like I was a great student. You and I are very different, but probably why we like each other, because I like people that are different than me. I never thought I'd be an entrepreneur. I was a very good student and I was very into the professional world. And then I got to come in here and I got to shake that up, where your personality lends perfectly well to entrepreneurship. And so we're very different, but we both are thriving. That's what I love about this landscape.

Josh Hall 30:24

Yeah, Amy in high school would have been like, that Josh guy is kind of weird. He's got spiky hair. He likes really crush on you.

Amy Porterfield 30:29

I was like, he's a bad boy.

Josh Hall 30:31

He's a bad boy. I don't know if that was the persona I had, but I'll take it.

Amy Porterfield 30:34

Let's just pretend. Let's pretend.

Courses Email Lists And Why Shifts

Josh Hall 30:36

Here we go. Yeah, let's we'll go with the bad boy. That that'll be my new tagline under uh under my email soon. The bad boy web designer. Um now you mentioned something there about you know who you help. And now honestly, I guess one thing I'm curious about, what the heck did courses look like in 2010? Oh like yes, that had to be. You talk about the level of and barrier of entry now so much easier. And back then, like, did you have to like hire people to build a custom site for doing courses? Did you have to have a team? Like, what did that look like?

Amy Porterfield 31:08

So I did have to hire a uh videographer in the very beginning. You know, it we didn't have like smartphones the way we have it now, nor was there tons of equipment known to just a newbie that you could just do it yourself. So it was more expensive back then. I remember hiring this crew. And also the platforms were coded, like you needed to know coding in order to make most of the course platforms work. I know nothing about coding, I still don't. And so I'd have to hire that out as well. So there were a lot of people I had to hire to make a course work. And also back in the day, it was really popular to show, you remember like the array of DVDs. Even though you were not getting any DVDs in the mail, we would show it on our sales pages with big bright yellow buttons and very obnoxious arrows and all of that. So internet marketing was very obnoxious back in the day, but also way more difficult to get a course up and running. Now I tell my students, do not, you do not need to hire anyone. Keep it simple, do it all yourself. And the technology allows us to do that today.

Josh Hall 32:14

Yeah, it really does. That's one reason I'm extra excited is because and even my audience who are all fairly savvy, there's still a lot that you have to learn. But luckily, it's so much easier. Even from when I got started in 2010 as a website designer, I was hand coding stuff. Thank God I don't have to do that anymore because that's not what I'm best at either. Um but I think it sounds like even back then, I guess the question I have as far as this topic of you know sticking with this and not burning out, not giving up. How important was your why back then to get through those tough technical things? Because this is outside of like bad numbers and rough months. This is like, what does it take to get through all the challenges that are gonna be in your face as an entrepreneur with tech stuff, with team, with marketing? Like, it sounds like your why was the freedom you wanted for yourself and for finances, whatever that looked like. But then did you have your your ICA? This is something you teach in your list builder society course. Again, everyone, I think that's like a 101 marketing course that I feel like everyone should go into. Um, but you talk about your ICA, ideal client avatar, customer avatar, you want to call it. Um, did you have that in place then? And was that help, did that help you as like your why to keep going?

Amy Porterfield 33:28

So in the beginning, it's funny you uh should mention whys because I have a very strong feeling about people creating their why to start their business. And I believe it changes over time. And so I encourage my students that when you're choosing a why in the beginning, if it's really quote, selfish, totally fine. So you're right, you're a great listener because my why was all about freedom. I wanted to call the shots, I wanted to work when I wanted to work, where I wanted to work, and how I wanted to work. It was all focused on me. I wanted a different kind of life. When I worked at Robins, I traveled probably 250 days out of the year. And I had just gotten married to Hobie and I never saw him. So my why was I wanted to and control my life. I wanted to create my own destiny. Now, if you fast forward, let's say 10 years from then, my why dramatically changed. It changed into there's a woman in a cubicle right now. She does not know that there's this whole world out there that she could call the shots. She knows she's made for more, but she feels stuck. And if let's say she falls upon my podcast or my book that's coming out and she's like, wait a second, what is this world? And it gives her permission to try something new, her whole life can change. She is my why. I think about her every day. She wasn't even in my radar 10, 15 or 12 years ago. So to answer your question, absolutely, my why of wanting freedom pulled me through for many, many, many years, especially when I started to doubt myself and things didn't go right. I had to come back to it over and over again. But I didn't know who my ICA was. My ideal customer avatar, no clue. I literally needed a few years to figure that out.

Josh Hall 35:08

Well, and as you were talking, it made me think. I I just wonder, this is just outside of perspective listening to you talk about that. I wonder if you didn't really understand your ICA back then because you weren't far removed from that person. Like maybe it took a few years after becoming a successful entrepreneur that you're like, now I can teach this. Because that's how I felt. Like right now, I don't feel I can I can teach course creators that well because I'm in it. I'm in the thick of being an online course creator, community builder, podcaster. Now I can teach web design left and right because I did that for a decade and I know all the challenges, all the mistakes I made. My hairline actually used to be right here, but that's web design receding. I hear you brothers. So I know I want to help people keep their hair. I think that's what I should put on my website.

Amy Porterfield 35:55

That's a great tagline.

Josh Hall 35:57

That is a great tagline. We've come up with something. I knew I was gonna get some marketing benefits, but you're a genius there. Um but no, you're you're right. Your wide changes. It's interesting. So I have two daughters. My oldest daughter, Bria. I don't know if you know this, Amy, if you got a chance to check out my uh story or anything, but she has some developmental delays. And we were in the NICU for two months when she was born, so it was a you know a huge, challenging time me and my family went to, went through. And she's doing awesome. She's the sweetest, she is literally the sweetest thing in the world. It's not an opinion. It is a firecrack.

Amy Porterfield 36:29

I believe it. I believe it.

Josh Hall 36:30

Oh my gosh, she's like the sweetest thing you can imagine. Now, my little one's a firecracker, but that's another story, but she's sweet too. But I say that to say it's changed my why. Because my why now is I want to help homeschool her. And that was not in the picture a few years ago before we had her. Like my why was building finances, building the business. Now I like my why have shifted from, of course, finances are a part of it, but now I'm thinking about like the day-to-day. What do I want our weeks to look like and our days to look like? So here, actually later this year, we can start homeschooling her because we just don't trust with the delays that she has and developmental stuff that she'll be well taken care of in the public system. So anyway, I say that to say that's my new why.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah.

Josh Hall 37:14

Has your why changed at all, or has it always since then, even when you found that out, has that stayed consistent?

Amy Porterfield 37:20

I think, you know, I've always I still always want that freedom. Like I don't believe anyone could ever hire me at this point. So I've got that running through my blood. But when I transitioned to it's that woman in the cubicle, that one fired me up even more. And so I love that you've allowed your why to change because it becomes bigger and better as it evolves. So I think everyone listening, uh, just let your why be whatever it is and get crystal clear. It's gotta feel good. It's gotta like hit you in that gut, like this is it. But then be open to the fact that you will start to experience new things and really show up for other people, like you are for your sweet little girl. I am for the women in my audience. That evolves over time. But until you're in it doing the thing, it's not gonna evolve. So all you gotta do, anyone that's like, I don't know if my why is good enough or I'm not clear, just get to work. It comes for sure.

Josh Hall 38:15

And I should say there's a personal aspect and a professional aspect. Personally, that's my biggest why. Professionally, of course. My why are my students, the web designers who are saying very similar from for you, Amy. They're working a full-time job and they want to have freedom and web design and this awesome online world of entrepreneurship is there for them. So that's you know, similarly, that's that's my why for them. So I guess it's it bears worth having like the personal and professional why I love that there at all times, right?

Amy Porterfield 38:43

Yes, absolutely.

Josh Hall 38:45

Yeah, I love that. And something I wanted to mention this earlier, something you hit on is to keep the why like top of center, front of mind. So today, my family and I are one month out as time of the recording this for we're building a new home. So I'm gonna have a new office set up here soon. But the first thing I'm going to do is make a wall of awesome, which is gonna have like testimonials, little notes that students send me with like there's so many things that I'm like, oh, that's awesome. Then I never think about it again. And recently I'm like, Josh, shame on you. Like, keep that stuff front and center. So I've started, I have like a folder of just awesome stuff that I just drop in there, screenshot it, drop it in there. I'm gonna take the next step in my new office setup, which is gonna be to like literally put it on the wall. So I don't know. I just wanted to share that because I feel like it's it's one thing to know it's there in your computer, it's another thing to see it. And be like, yes, that's yes.

Amy Porterfield 39:42

When you get that up, take a picture and put it on social. I want to see it.

Hustle Burnout And Four-Day Weeks

Josh Hall 39:45

I will 100% do that. Um we've also talked a lot about work ethic in this. You and I are hustlers at heart, I think. Like I came, I came from a blue-collar background. I'm good with getting my work boots on and going. I think a lot of people have an issue like getting started and getting to work. My issue is to stop working. Because, and I'm sure I'm as an online entrepreneur. I totally relate. Right? A lot of people leave the nine to five, and then it's like, welcome to the 24-7. Don't get on your laptop on Friday night when you're spending time with your family. So I've had to combat that. Obviously, as a family man now, I've really learned a lot about work-life balance and work-life integration. Um, but hustle. What are your thoughts on hustle? And I think there's a change in the entrepreneurial landscape now where hustle is people are like, okay, hold on. Yeah, it's a dirty word. I got some thoughts on this, but what are your thoughts on hustle?

Amy Porterfield 40:40

Okay, I'd love to know your thoughts too. So I recently did a podcast episode where actually I've done two episodes where I've talked about this. And what I've shared is that two things. Number one, I absolutely believe you have to hustle in the first few years. I don't know any other way around it. You got to say yes to most things to figure out what you like and what you're good at and what you don't like and what you don't want to do. And also, you don't know if it's a good opportunity or not until you get in there and try it. And so in the first few years, that's a little bit of like a little desperation, like I gotta make it work, especially if you've left a nine to five job. Hustle is just part of the game. And I believe that that is just how it is. Other people could totally disagree with me, and that's fine. However, what I did wrong and what I've admitted to is I didn't know to get out of the hustle mentality. So when I started teaching people how to create courses and grow their email list and do webinars, it came from a hustle mentality. Like, do what you got to do, work the hours you got to work. You gotta work on weekends, you do it because this means a lot to you. And then I experienced burnout. Like I was like, I don't even want to do this. And I know why. I've seen so many people come and go in this industry, and I know why, because they pushed themselves so freaking hard that it got to a point that they're like, this is not even worth it. I don't even like this. Luckily, I never got to that place. I've always loved it in one way or another. But what happened is my husband's like, I never see you. My little boy at the time, I went to a baseball game and he was practicing. It was practice. I thought he wasn't even paying attention to me. I'm on my laptop in the bleachers, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, like typing away. Afterwards, I was walking him to the car and I said, You did so good. And he said, How do you know? You were working the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Oh.

Amy Porterfield 42:23

And it's like yesterday, and this is many, many years ago.

Josh Hall 42:26

Oh, with the dagger.

Amy Porterfield 42:28

It was horrible. I could have just cried in that moment. I probably went home and cried. So I've experienced the hustle and the burnout, and I do not think it serves you long term. So, you know, we talked about how do you stay in this that many years and beyond? You have to get out of the hustle mode. I really do believe it. I believe you can make something amazing without killing yourself over it. And the more you value time away from work, I believe you show up better. So, one of the things, like to put my my um this into motion, we moved to a four-day work week. A year ago, I was gonna ask about that. Yeah, of 20 full-time employees that are across the whole US, we moved everyone to a four-day work week. So we work Monday through Thursday, regular hours, eight-ish hours. And we do not work Friday, Saturday, Sunday unless we're in a launch. And it changed everything. It changed everything in terms of how I feel about work, how I feel about my team. And my team is so grateful for the opportunity to be with our family. So I'm not a huge fan of hustle, but I do think it's necessary in the beginning.

Josh Hall 43:32

I agree. Totally back that up and saying in the beginning, you you're gonna have to do it. There's no other way around. It's it's going to be a busy season. But you asked my thoughts on it. My thoughts are it's seasonal. Yes. Like again, I love hustling. Some of my favorite times of my creative juices are to like build a course. But I know it's very time intensive, it's exhausting, even though I love it. It doesn't mean that it's not exhausting. And I've learned that there are certain seasons where, and I'll just let my wife know. know, like I'm creating a course, I'm recording the next couple weeks, hustle time. I'm gonna be working a little more. The couple weeks after that, let's go to the zoo on a Tuesday. Let's do this, you know, or whatever. So I've learned to like just balance it, balance the hustle. And then but more importantly, be intentional about like scheduling that out. And the idea of a four-week workday or excuse me, four-day work week. That was completely off. That's very intriguing. I know a lot of people are doing that. For me personally, I've I've revamped my day to day and week to week to where Mondays are no calls and it's just open. I can work a lot if I want if I'm in a hustle mode, but I can also be creative. I can write I'm similarly I'm gonna start writing my first book uh next month. So I'm super excited about that. Writing? So Mondays are probably going to be writing day. Tuesdays are calls Wednesdays occasionally will be calls. Um Thursdays are also called I have a couple call segments but that's it. And then Fridays are usually half days at most. So it's a very you know I I I've given myself freedom in my day-to-day but I that's the the term that everyone has to remember. You have to like set that up you and I'm giving and would you back me up Amy in saying that to give people permission to set your week to what you want to do. I feel like so many people need to hear that and just do it like craft your week that's the beauty about doing online entrepreneurship. You can create you can control it.

Amy Porterfield 45:25

It's so true. You know sometimes I I get back into hustle mentality and I'm I you know don't even realize it and I'm working myself to the bone and I'll complain to my husband Hobie and say like oh I just I feel like I don't even have a minute and he says you should talk to your boss about that one.

Josh Hall 45:41

Oh go Hobie what a great line.

Amy Porterfield 45:44

Right? I am calling the shots so if I'm complaining about my schedule it is me. I have a really good friend super prominent in her industry and she was complaining about her calendar and I said based on personal experience you control that calendar. You're saying it's your virtual assistant setting up meetings. You're saying people are putting things on your calendar you're the boss at the end of the day. And we have to remember that and also absolutely agree with you set up your week the way you want to live it because you will not be in that industry in 10 years if you hate your weeks and you hate the amount of time you work. And I think there's this FOMO like if I don't say yes to everything, if I'm not working, working, working all the time, I'm gonna miss out on something. And the peers that I admire the most are those that literally have enough confidence to say I'm gonna do what I want, say no to the things I don't want to do and I will be just fine they tend to thrive. There's something magical about it.

Josh Hall 46:40

That's I just love it. You can control your day and everything you want to do. I'm actually thinking about dropping Wednesdays as call days too and just doing Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Amy Porterfield 46:47

We do two days a week um Mondays and Wednesdays no calls.

Josh Hall 46:51

We do I'm in yeah if Amy Porterfield tells me to try that out I'm in I'm action taker on that. A follow-up question with that real quick how do you turn it off? Because even even though you're not working on those days off I mean I imagine no team calls, no emails, but mentally do you give yourself permission to you know do do content, do stuff like that, or are you like off on those three days that you're off so that's such a great question.

Amy Porterfield 47:18

I a lot of the times I am totally off. So I will not come upstairs. So it just so happens that my office is upstairs I'll stay downstairs and I'll have to really make plans and make sure that I have my day set up so that I'm not finding my way upstairs for a quick call or a quick content creation or something. They're supposed to be full non-working days. Now because I'm writing a book I have found that there are some Fridays that I am typing away I I'm in a season. I got to get the book done I'm on a contract but most of the time I am not working at all.

Josh Hall 47:54

That's awesome. I know that's the danger of having a laptop which is I have a laptop right here which this is running off of and I have to I'm almost thinking about going with like a locked big computer. So I go into the office to work I can't take it elsewhere.

Amy Porterfield 48:07

Yes we'll see how that goes see how that goes with writing the book but isn't it wild though like we we have to force ourselves not to work and I don't think that's a bad thing. I think we love what we do we're excited about it but we also know that all work and no play is not going to serve us well.

Josh Hall 48:26

For me there was a like light bulb moment that hit me and that was probably maybe two or three years ago when again same thing I wasn't stressed out working. I just really liked what I was doing. I was new into courses students were emailing me I loved hearing from them so I was on my email quite a bit we were watching I'm a I'm a hockey fan so we were walking watching a Blue Jackets game and I had one daughter at the time Bria who was playing and my wife was talking to me and I was on my laptop doing email stuff. Half an hour later I didn't know what my wife just said. I didn't pay attention to my daughter I felt bad about that I didn't even see what was going on in the game and it took me a half an hour to write this email that I could have done in like two minutes the next morning. So that was like the moment for me I realized I I need to just stop this. Like there's occasional times I'll bring my laptop and do some stuff but more often than not I know when I can take that thing out and get stuff done and I've had to control that and like again kind of similarly like I can work all the time I need to reel that back and be intentional about it.

Amy Porterfield 49:30

Intentional I think it's a beautiful word.

Simplify Your Offers And Close

Josh Hall 49:32

Yeah uh gosh so much good stuff here Amy I again I really feel like there's a bazillion topics I'd love to dive into I want to be respectful of your time as we uh get ready to to roll this up um I kind of do have one final question for you uh I before we get to that though where would you like people to go to find out more? I've I've mentioned your list builder society course I'm actually an affiliate now so everyone can go to joshhall.co slash LBS as in listbuilder society to check that out. What's interesting Amy is I am not your ICA. I am not your ideal customer alate I don't think however let me just publicly say I got so much benefit out of that course and so I actually went through your webinar and I did not initially purchase it because I kind of felt like it might be a beginner's style course. Right. But even with where I'm at now because my ICA is is changing a little bit into the like business realm and not just web designer realm um it actually really helped me reposition my messaging and where I'm at. So publicly thank you for all that you put in that course is going to be revamped soon, right?

Amy Porterfield 50:37

It is you're gonna be I need you to uh be one of my testimonials because you're gonna be a shining star. You take that seriously you're like my favorite type of uh student and so I love that I want to point something out so I love that you're talking about ideal customer avatar and how important it is to really understand who you're serving and who you're talking to but you are a perfect example of the magic I talk about in list builder society where if you get clear who you're marketing to and you get your message around them and you resonate with them, you're not going to serve everybody. But there will be outliers there will be people out there that just something you said resonated with them, your teaching style, they will find you even if they're not your ICA. So don't worry that you're leaving everyone out. You're not and Josh, you're a perfect example. You might not be my perfect ICA, but you found me because something I did resonated with what you need. And so it's such a beautiful thing.

Josh Hall 51:33

Yeah well and it's funny you mentioned that I'm on the cusp it won't be by the time your episode goes live but I'm actually going to rebrand my podcast. Right now it's the Josh Hall Web Design Show. I'm about to rebrand it to the Web Design Business podcast with Josh Hall to just move myself out of it just a little bit and then make it very clear web design business. So I'm not going to be we're not talking about how to code on this podcast. We're talking about business and strategy and entrepreneurship with web design is a key part of that. So I appreciate that.

Amy Porterfield 52:05

I love your niche I think it's so beautiful that it's web design but also business building and that little tweak makes all the difference. I'm excited about that. So anyway you're uh you I so appreciate you talking about List Builder Society because it's a program I'm really proud of and I do believe that everything gets easier in your business when you grow an email list. So thank you for being an affiliate I hope a lot of people listening want to take us up on the offer because it's amazing. But when you asked where can people find me thank you for that question. I'm all about my podcast online marketing made easy. If you love Josh's show you might like my show as well.

Josh Hall 52:40

Let me tell you something about your podcast Amy. So I saw you on a couple summits that I was a part of it was the uh Brendan Brashard's Influencer Summit that was my initial like big exposure to you. I mean I of course heard your name and I was like I like what Amy said in this uh and then I went through this summit shoot the video summit about uh Luria is that right oh yeah Loria's yes yeah whatever the whatever her summit was I just feel so bad I forget what that was called but uh a lot about video and lives and going live and stuff and as somebody who's doing live more now this year it's like my big thing this year's live video um really resonated with me. I say all that to say then I got onto your podcast and let me tell you about Amy's podcast uh definitely subscribe right now to online marketing made easy because every episode recently has been like hit after hit after hit. My gosh the one you did with the finance guy uh Anthony yes Anthony O'Neill love him oh my gosh everybody after this of course drop what you're doing and listen to episode 451 of Amy's podcast about money mindset so good anyway your podcast is definitely a resource I'm I'm passing around.

Amy Porterfield 53:53

Josh that means the most to me I literally want to put you in my pocket and take you around with me because you make a girl feel really loved.

Josh Hall 53:59

So I was gonna say you know we're in Columbus, Ohio I have two golden retrievers too to top it all off.

Amy Porterfield 54:04

Oh I could bring Scout over.

Josh Hall 54:06

They want to know now they're cute blondes. I've got Daisy Lou and Lily Bell. I want to know if Scout's gonna be on his best behavior for a play date.

Amy Porterfield 54:13

He might not be he might be a little sassy but I think we need to get them together.

Josh Hall 54:18

Okay deal deal well I want to be respectful of your time Amy my final question for you is for the people who are still in that season numbers aren't great. They're still in that rough patch they're fired up if you could just sum up like one piece of advice if you were sitting down with somebody at coffee and you were like just do this or you know this would be my advice what would you say to them?

Amy Porterfield 54:39

If numbers aren't really great, things aren't really coming together but you're you're not going to give up of course the number one thing I would do is say look at your business and can you make it simpler? I'm all about a simple business. I love having just a few offers, just a few ways that I make the core of my revenue and everything else is great but not a necessity. So look at your business can you simplify it? Can you double down on that one thing that's working really well and stop spinning your wheels on five other things that are not check your ego. We say yes to a lot of things that will make us look good but don't really bring in the revenue. So first look at what can make me revenue, where can I double down? What can I do less of but do it really well and get rid of the stuff that's weighing you down.

Josh Hall 55:25

To me that's a way to kind of open up some possibilities that's why she's a legend everybody Amy Porfield thank you so much for your time I can't believe this was an hour.

Amy Porterfield 55:36

I can't either I'm like what we live that long oh my goodness when good conversation happens I hope this isn't the last time this has been super fun.

Josh Hall 55:44

Thank you so much for your time Amy I'm excited to talk soon. Thanks so much Hey guys and gals just wanted to pop in with a couple things before you head out if you enjoyed this episode please consider leaving a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to this podcast I would love to hear your feedback and it will also help other web designers find the show. Be sure to check out the show notes for this episode just go to joshhall.co click on podcast and search this episode number and you'll find all the links descriptions and resources we talked about and if you haven't already make sure you subscribe and you'll be notified when the next episode is live thanks again for tuning in and I'll catch you guys on the next episode.